Train for reality: beginners?

[peterb]

As an offshoot from the current "Train for reality" thread: If you're working with beginners whose goal is concealed carry, would you still want to start them with a basic OWB belt holster setup until they have solid fundamentals? Or do you immediately start working from concealment?

[Jay Cunningham]

I want them starting OWB, no concealment; it lets me see better and an ND during reholster arguably may have less dire consequences.

Ultimately clearing a cover garment is not a fundamental of shooting so I don't start there.

I can understand different points of view.


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[ToddG]

If the student's goal is concealed carry, I don't want him leaving without knowing how to carry concealed, draw from concealment, etc. It's easy to start with the basics sans concealment garment and then move up. Plus a beginner may not want to buy multiple holsters just for a few hours' work.

[walkin' trails]

I would prefer they start with a quality OWB that can be concealed with an untucked shirt or jacket and work on the basic skills and concepts. After they've got a good understanding if the basics, I can help them decide on an IWB or similar that works for them.

[NETim]

A plus for students whose ultimate goal is CCW would be to have a variety of holsters on hand in the class to used as samples. Perhaps it would save them a few $$$ in the future.

[KevinB]

Having seen the lowest common denominator in pistol classes, I think that the basics will start off without an holster usage at all.

I guess the kicker here is how long do you have for this?

Ideally you would get at least one day just on dry drill gun handling followed by a range day sans holster (table the gun).
Day 2 can work on dry drill "advanced handling" and holster work.
Day 3 would be a sim day with draw and fire from concealment
Day 4 would be live holster work from concealment
Day 5 would be legal aspects and scenarios (ideally life, sim FoF, and FATS).


Frankly it would be nice to get 2-3 weeks for this, but I think for most civilians even a 5 day class is unlikely.

As Todd says the goal is to get the shooter to be able to safely use concealed carry when its done - I think a 5 day class is a bare minimum for that, but I understand that a 1-2 day class may be all that is available.

[Tamara]

Having seen the lowest common denominator in pistol classes, I think that the basics will start off without an holster usage at all.

I agree with this. Taking MAG-40 this past summer was a good reality check, since it's the first class I'd taken since Louis' Tactical Handgun I some years back where there were people in a ~20 student class who literally showed up with the trigger tag still hanging off the gun. Both classes are billed as entry-level.

For the three of y'all who haven't taken both, Awerbuck's class had people working drills from the holster by day two, while Mas had four days of anything that happened on the clock happening from the low ready. Although both classes had ample assistant instructors to make sure there were plenty of eyeballs to go around, I felt a lot less head-on-a-swivel on the firing line at the MAG class.

I think in a large-ish open enrollment class, especially one where there may be pressure to perform in front of one's peers, pushing people into playing Quick-Draw McGraw on their very first day of working from the holster with live ammo might be more risk than it's worth. :confused:

[GardoneVT]

If the student's goal is concealed carry, I don't want him leaving without knowing how to carry concealed, draw from concealment, etc. It's easy to start with the basics sans concealment garment and then move up. Plus a beginner may not want to buy multiple holsters just for a few hours' work.

Agreed.

The point i'd add is that draw practice can be done WITHOUT live ammo. Sure, its best to practice and draw with live shooting, but for most gun owners that is not a practical option. I live in a state with lots of open country and few gun laws. Someone who lives in urban New Jersey or Los Angeles still has the need I do to defend themselves, but they'll never be able to shoot somewhere local which will permit live fire holster draws.

Teach the fundamentals, hold court with unloaded weapons on draw practice, and turn the newbies loose. When the S hits the F muscle memory won't care if theres a round in the chamber.

[TGS]

I think in a large-ish open enrollment class, especially one where there may be pressure to perform in front of one's peers, pushing people into playing Quick-Draw McGraw on their very first day of working from the holster with live ammo might be more risk than it's worth. :confused:

Absolutely, but learning to use a holster doesn't have to be Quick-Draw McGraw right away. Basic holster manipulations starts from slow and by the numbers, and gradually progresses to students pushing themselves and being pushed by the clock. Even in ECQC, Craig purposely has you do relaxed holster movements in some evolutions. John Murphy out of Virginia has new people show up who've never fired a gun and in the 16 hour course he teaches them how to safely draw and fire. It starts with demonstrations and dry runs, progressing to live runs by the numbers, and live runs on your own speed, then by the end of the course live runs under simulated stress. Can these students Quick-Draw McGraw and hit a gnats eyeball at 25 yards using a pressout with a .5sec par time? No, that's not the objective. Can they draw and fire their weapon accurately in a FUT using a pectoral reference? No, that's not the objective.

But what they do know are the proper steps to safely unconceal, establish a master grip, draw, present and fire a pistol. From there they can advance, but they at least have the basics of how to do it safely. What does a student get from a basic pistol class billed as self-defense oriented when the instructor refuses to even teach them how to draw the pistol? What, we all just walk around at the low-ready, right? How the heck is that teaching the student to use a pistol for concealed carry?

Not teaching how to use a holster in a basic class billed as self-defense oriented makes about as much sense as the Underwear Gnome's business strategy in South Park.
1. Steal underwear.
2. ..........
3. Profit!

The idea being if holster usage is too dangerous to teach in an entry level pistol class billed for self-defense, then when/where/how the heck are they suppose to learn it? How are they suppose to get from step 1 to 3 when there is no step 2? They're sure as hell not going to just magically be one with safety from taking classes that never have them draw the weapon. They're never going to learn how to draw safely unless they do it, which can absolutely be done safely with brand new shooters who prior to class don't even know how to load a magazine.

As for OWB vs IWB, I've seen it done both ways. Both ways seemed to work out fine. I just hope the class that only lets them draw from OWB isn't billed as a concealed-carry oriented class, because then the student is being ripped off.

[Tamara]

But what they do know are the proper steps to safely unconceal, establish a master grip, draw, present and fire a pistol.

Yes, that was all covered at MAG-40; but "anything that happened on the clock happen(ed) from the low ready."

Nobody drew a loaded gun under time pressure at the class, and all guns were confirmed clear by an RSO before holstering was allowed (although students were still holstering as though the guns were hot, obviously.)

In the context of that class, I had no problem with that whatsoever.

(EDIT: Parenthetically related, the two main bits of technique I took away from the class involved the draw and the reholster...)

[GardoneVT]

Not teaching how to use a holster in a basic class billed as self-defense oriented makes about as much sense as the Underwear Gnome's business strategy in South Park.
1. Steal underwear.
2. ..........
3. Profit!

The idea being if holster usage is too dangerous to teach in an entry level pistol class billed for self-defense, then when/where/how the heck are they suppose to learn it? How are they suppose to get from step 1 to 3 when there is no step 2?

At home, in safe conditions, with the weapon cleared and no ammunition nearby. The muscles of your arms and hands won't care if the gun's live or not-drawing the gun is a separate activity from actually firing it.

Remember, for most students live fire holster practice outside of a specialized training academy isn't even possible. At the risk of repeating myself, its worth noting that not all of us can shoot at a range which permits holstered practice. Some poor souls are doomed by location to shoot at ranges with "NO RAPID FIRE" rules, to say nothing about maintaining skill with holster draws. If life fire is a requirement to keep sharp with your holster draws, then there may as well be no class at all!

[Tamara]

At home, in safe conditions, with the weapon cleared and no ammunition nearby.

Very few instructors do individual in-home training.

I think everyone would benefit greatly from their initial exposure to holster work being with someone knowledgeable standing over them and "grading their paper", as it were.

Sure, you can learn it from T*x G*****r YouTube vids and self-training, but I'm not certain that's optimal.

(FWIW, of the three local ranges I have, only one will greenlight working from the holster, and that's not even the one I usually go to. Gun school and the occasional competition are the only times I run a gun hot from the leather at speed myself, so I feel your pain.)

[Chuck Haggard]

You can get a lot of good work done with a dummy gun and your carry gear, at home.

[TGS]

At home, in safe conditions, with the weapon cleared and no ammunition nearby. The muscles of your arms and hands won't care if the gun's live or not-drawing the gun is a separate activity from actually firing it.


For a beginner that hasn't even been taught by an instructor how to safely do such, that's not training.

What you just wrote is what gets most people in trouble: Figuring it out on their own in lieu of appropriate instruction.


You can get a lot of good work done with a dummy gun and your carry gear, at home.

For someone who has already had appropriate instruction, and can identify what they're doing wrong. This thread isn't about those people, from what I understood.

[Tamara]

For someone who has already had appropriate instruction, and can identify what they're doing wrong.

^^^What I was going to type.^^^

[Chuck Haggard]

For a beginner that hasn't even been taught by an instructor how to safely do such, that's not training.

What you just wrote is what gets most people in trouble: Figuring it out on their own in lieu of appropriate instruction.



For someone who has already had appropriate instruction, and can identify what they're doing wrong. This thread isn't about those people, from what I understood.

I meant that as more of a follow-up to said training. And posted towards the idea that many people don't have access to a range that allows draws from the holster.

[GardoneVT]

I meant that as more of a follow-up to said training. And posted towards the idea that many people don't have access to a range that allows draws from the holster.

Agreed. My point is that newbies should practice their draw at home after competent instruction at a proper weapon class.

[Chuck Haggard]

Agreed. My point is that newbies should practice their draw at home after competent instruction at a proper weapon class.

I agree with your agreement.

[TGS]

I agree with your agreement.

I agree with your agreement of his agreement.

It appears we have an agreement.

[JAD]

Y'all are on /crack/. A student showing up to a basic pistol class should and will show up with his pistol in a frigging holster. He will be told to take it out and put it back in slowly and carefully with his finger straight, and odds are he will mostly do so. On the second (pretty sure, been a while) day of a five day class, he will be shown a draw technique and stepped through it carefully, and will be hot on the clock (or whistle) after the Wednesday lecture.

It's not that damn hard. If an instructor and two coaches can't keep two dozen-up relays safe then the cadre or curriculum is kittened. Either the instructor competence that y'all have been exposed to has been poor, or y'all are possessed of a degree of infallibility that makes it impossible for you to feel safe around normal human beings.


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[NETim]

Y'all are on /crack/. A student showing up to a basic pistol class should and will show up with his pistol in a frigging holster. He will be told to take it out and put it back in slowly and carefully with his finger straight, and odds are he will mostly do so. On the second (pretty sure, been a while) day of a five day class, he will be shown a draw technique and stepped through it carefully, and will be hot on the clock (or whistle) after the Wednesday lecture.

It's not that damn hard. If an instructor and two coaches can't keep two dozen-up relays safe then the cadre or curriculum is kittened. Either the instructor competence that y'all have been exposed to has been poor, or y'all are possessed of a degree of infallibility that makes it impossible for you to feel safe around normal human beings.


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:) That's what I experienced in DHG1 at TR way back in Ought Four. I did cheat though and watch some TR videos beforehand (and practiced), so I had an idea of what was coming. Didn't take Clint and Co long to spot and correct what I was doing improperly.

Except my desire to shoot faster than my ability to shoot fast. They couldn't cure me of that (though they tried.) :) That I had to work out on my own.

[Tamara]

If an instructor and two coaches can't keep two dozen-up relays safe then the cadre or curriculum is kittened. Either the instructor competence that y'all have been exposed to has been poor...

I know, right? Effin' Louis Awerbuck and Massad Ayoob, right? Posers! You should go show those n00bs how to run a pistol class!

Matter of fact, sign me up for JAD Level One Handgun! I want to get all that bad stuff out of my head.

[KevinB]

Y'all are on /crack/. A student showing up to a basic pistol class should and will show up with his pistol in a frigging holster. He will be told to take it out and put it back in slowly and carefully with his finger straight, and odds are he will mostly do so. On the second (pretty sure, been a while) day of a five day class, he will be shown a draw technique and stepped through it carefully, and will be hot on the clock (or whistle) after the Wednesday lecture.

It's not that damn hard. If an instructor and two coaches can't keep two dozen-up relays safe then the cadre or curriculum is kittened. Either the instructor competence that y'all have been exposed to has been poor, or y'all are possessed of a degree of infallibility that makes it impossible for you to feel safe around normal human beings.


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I have an aversion to holes in me...


In many states a student without a CWP/CCW will need to show up with their gun in a box unloaded.

I do not believe for a basic handgun course that (if I read you right) an 1:8 Instructor to Student Ratio is sufficient to either point out corrections to each student, or to control a line of new to pistol folks trying to manipulate a handgun and holster.

New shooters fore the most part will wave pistols anywhere -- the short barrel length does not compute and you quickly end up with folks lasing others.

I believe (I have a lot of beliefs by the way) that a 1:2 and at most a 1:3 Instructor to Student ratio is sufficient to ensure the safety of the group dynamic. That way the Instructor can keep eyes on all, and if they need to move into an area where they loose control of the other two they can have them cease fire for a moment.
I took my first open enrollment course in 2004 - and was horrified that I was looking down the barrel of a .40 Berretta while a dip shit was trying to figure out how to clear an obstruction and figured he'd rotate the gun 90 to his left to give him more leverage.

1 thing to know about me - and many of my friends (or just acquaintances) will attest -- IF I FEEL SOMETHING IS UNSAFE, IT PROBABLY IS...

[JAD]

I know, right? Effin' Louis Awerbuck and Massad Ayoob, right? Posers! You should go show those n00bs how to run a pistol class!

Matter of fact, sign me up for JAD Level One Handgun! I want to get all that bad stuff out of my head.

What you describe Awerbuck as having done is exactly what I described, "working from the holster on day two." I couldn't tell if you were saying that Mas was smarter than Awerbuck or not.


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[David Armstrong]

from kevinB:
Having seen the lowest common denominator in pistol classes, I think that the basics will start off without an holster usage at all.
When I do my basic CW classes that is the default. Even if they have a holster when we go to the range I have them draw an empty gun, load on the line, then go to a low ready. None of the actual firing starts with the loaded gun in the holster. I'm happy to demo holster types and use but given a true "never really did this before" shooter having to work from the holster is just one more complication to deal with. I give them instruction on basic mechanics of the draw and have them practice a bit with unloaded guns, but given the limited time available holster work is just not smart for that particualr class.

[ToddG]

Not directed at any particular person, but something I came to realize more than a decade ago when I quit teaching the CCW class at the NRA Range: How do you sign off on someone as "certified" to carry concealed if you've never seen them draw from concealment?

You, yourself, think it's unsafe for the person to be handling a loaded gun in the holster on a firing line under the eyes of instructors with little or no stress. But you are willing to sign your name to a sheet of paper that says he's been trained to carry a concealed handgun. Pass.

I realize that the instructor can justify his actions by saying, "I trained him to the standards required by the state for a CCW permit applicant." I still don't want to be the one checking the box for the guy.

[Tamara]

I couldn't tell if you were saying that Mas was smarter than Awerbuck or not.

Smarter? No. But I felt like there was a smaller window for screwups.

Obviously I'm being a bit of a Nervous Nell as both programs have outstanding safety records*; I'm just very untrusting of my fellow humans, especially if I see wobbliness in gun-handling skills from someone who will be standing next to me on the line with a hot gun momentarily.


(*AFAIK, Louis has batted a thousand thus far, while Mas has had only one student in... what, 25 years?... give themselves a racing stripe. They've probably had more people get in car wrecks on the way to class. I have just managed to stay really nervous about guns, despite having worked around them all my life. :o )

[JAD]

*; I'm just very untrusting of my fellow humans, . :o )

I think that attitude is encouraged among the cognoscenti, and I think that's generally laudable... But it can warp into a kind of elitism, becoming just another way of seeing others as inferior.

Part of my butthurt probably stems from a difference in what we're referring to as 'beginner' classes. I think 250 is a beginner class. I think 150 is the bare minimum, and I think ccw cert-type classes don't really count. Maybe that's my elitism showing.


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[Mr_White]

I think 250 is a beginner class. I think 150 is the bare minimum, and I think ccw cert-type classes don't really count. Maybe that's my elitism showing.

I tend to think so. Not that I don't have my own elitisms.

But they do say in the 250 course description:


...You will prevail in any encounter...

[JAD]

I tend to think so. Not that I don't have my own elitisms.

But they do say in the 250 course description:

Based on Givens' data, that seems likely, if you walk away from there having made a conscious decision to carry every day. I don't know from lately, but that used to be what Gunsite was most particularly good at (the epiphany). I wasn't being specific about Gunsite, though, and haven't sampled data there since the 90's to know; I'm just drawing a line between three day classes combining marksmanship and mindset (150 equivalent) and 1-2 day skills only or (worse) ccw classes, which are worth squat for a new shooter (But in the case of the skill builder, great for a trained person).


Jon
KC

[Mr_White]

Based on Givens' data, that seems likely, if you walk away from there having made a conscious decision to carry every day. I don't know from lately, but that used to be what Gunsite was most particularly good at (the epiphany). I wasn't being specific about Gunsite, though, and haven't sampled data there since the 90's to know; I'm just drawing a line between three day classes combining marksmanship and mindset (150 equivalent) and 1-2 day skills only or (worse) ccw classes, which are worth squat for a new shooter (But in the case of the skill builder, great for a trained person).


Jon
KC

Based on Givens' data, I would agree that their claim seems likely, even though it is a truly grandiose statement coming from anyone.

But also based on Givens' data, a one-ish day CCW class could probably be making about as grandiose a statement.

[David Armstrong]

Not directed at any particular person, but something I came to realize more than a decade ago when I quit teaching the CCW class at the NRA Range: How do you sign off on someone as "certified" to carry concealed if you've never seen them draw from concealment?

You, yourself, think it's unsafe for the person to be handling a loaded gun in the holster on a firing line under the eyes of instructors with little or no stress. But you are willing to sign your name to a sheet of paper that says he's been trained to carry a concealed handgun. Pass.

I realize that the instructor can justify his actions by saying, "I trained him to the standards required by the state for a CCW permit applicant." I still don't want to be the one checking the box for the guy.
It's nothing new. We have many decades of off-duty and plainclothes LEOs carrying concealed without ever having any training on drawing from concealment. But I think you hit the key with "in the holster on a firing line". Often there can be constraints on a firing line and in a range environment that are not issues off of the firing line. Plenty of ranges don't allow drawing from the holster, drawing from concealment, etc. IIRC, the NRA basic handgun class mandates all courses of fire begin with the gun in the hand. Now, I don't about you, but I just don't want to have a full line of folks with very limited experience drawing from concealment, particularly when Joe is doing the Mexican Carry thing, Sally is using her Concealment Purse, Sam has his gun tucked away in his fancy fake DayRunner, Bill is using his super-duper Magill Tactical Pants holster, Danny is running round with an ankle holster, Larry has his shoulder holster thing going, etc. Sure, you could require everyone to bring a particular holster but then you are right back to the problem...you've checked the box without ever seeing/training the shooter to draw from concealment with the gun/holster combo he is going to use.