Do you Train for Reality?

[KevinB]

So I went shooting with Todd and a few others yesterday.

I have had a few moments of clarity in the past few weeks. Because I learned to shoot in the Canadian Army, and all my training for years was geared to full duty gear, when I retired and was contracting - my training regime stayed the same.

1) After being retired for 9 years and out of security contracting for 5 years -- why am I still training/shooting in a Battle Belt and Vest/Plates? For some courses with work its a necessity - but stuff on my own makes about as much sense as selling ice in Antarctica...

2) I totally suck in draws and reloads from concealment.

Now looking at reality - I carry concealed pretty much 100% of the time unless I need to go into DC or MD for business.
My biggest concern is out with the family and an active shooter scenario occurs - so I probably thus should be training for draws from concealment.

I think Todd is renaming my rendition of the FAST drill as the SLOW - as he could have gone for coffee before I was done, admittedly I could have sped up a lot if the accuracy and/or concealment aspect was ignored.

So am I the only has been out there than has not made the transition to realistic training requirements?

[Dagga Boy]

Some of our best students are the military guys who are getting out and are trying to now shift their focus to individual use of force as a regular person living daily life in the US. It is a very different world. "Reality" is an ever changing thing throughout our lives. I was lucky that the transition from L/E to fat retired nobody was made easier by all the years of very dedicated off duty and undercover carry as well as domestic "contracting" that was all VERY low profile. Still, adjustments have been made and we should always be assessing what works in our own world.

[ToddG]

Here's the wilder question: why do guys who've NEVER been in the military, tactical LE job, or overseas armed contractor role have battle rigs and take them to classes instead of EDC gear?

The important thing in your case is that your fundamentals are solid. Tweaking techniques for soft gear won't take much time.

[Shellback]

I think it depends on what outcome you're seeking from training. I think some guys really like going out, wearing their battle gear, having fun, and shooting with a bunch of other like minded people. I think other people have a definite outcome they're pursuing. My sole motivation in training is to learn how to more effectively defend myself and my family should the need ever arise. In my opinion the best way to do that is to practice with what you would normally be sporting in your everyday life or profession.

I prefer to use my everyday CCW set up and regular street clothes for classes. For some high round classes, lots of draws, etc. it isn't nearly as convenient as running an OWB type holster, gun belt and various other doodads but it's definitely closer to my everyday reality. I run AIWB, draw from concealment, and rarely do I see people in classes who go that same route. This picture was taken at a PFC pistol class here in Vegas. 2 of the guys were police, utilizing their duty equipment, but everyone else was Joe Citizen as far as I know after introductions and chatting. I'm the only goof who forgot his khaki contractor pants and wore a flannel and jeans.

http://imageshack.us/a/img853/4052/monx.jpg

[Chuck Haggard]

I go so far as to mix my gear in competition. Lately I use my duty gear at our local USPSA matches, shoot from my concealed carry gear at the IDPA matches.

I used to just train and compete from my duty gear, or my SWAT gear, but I realized that I am often in my off-duty gear as much or more.

I do note that many course are not really conducive to running your gun from something like a Summer Special under a T-shirt.

[LittleLebowski]

I've been shooting pistol and carbine classes in everyday clothing with all gear on my belt that holds up my pants since I got out of the Corps. Just makes sense and adds a challenge in of itself in not being able to hang tons of stuff on a "war" belt that you only use for classes.

Note the contrast :D

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/Vickers%203%20Day%20Advanced%20Pistol-Carbine%20June%202011/IMG_0822.jpg

[abu fitna]

Here's the wilder question: why do guys who've NEVER been in the military, tactical LE job, or overseas armed contractor role have battle rigs and take them to classes instead of EDC gear?.

i have seen quite a few folks over the years as contracting changed from the 90's tracksuits or third world surplus gear with the markings cut out to civvy outdoor gear in the noughties, and now the purpose built high speed low drag design ethos that the cool kids are trying to copy. The impulse towards gear choice comes from the fact that most commercial clothing often tends to fail badly when running around doing the things we do as students of the gun.

After a couple times having something come apart at the wrong time, or getting frustrated at the workarounds that are shortcut by a piece of gear, many newer shooters will buy what they see other guys wearing even if they only use it in class.

Doesn't help their disconnect from how they will actually have to fight when it comes down to it anywhere short of widespread domestic disorder. But it takes a lot more experience and focus on performance factors to pick good edc gear from normal retail channels. And there isn't a lot of support for new folks that need to learn, while there are a dozen tacticool blogs marketing all the new shiny.

Even in the contractor world, the marketing thing can make life hard. It is always tempting to buy one more thing that might help, and slowly the baseline for signature and attrib slips as group dynamics play out.

Let's face it - most guys don't want to talk about clothing, and hate shopping. Having an answer handed to them is the easier thing, and if that triggers the tool user and honer instinct it is difficult to resist. It requires deliberate discussion and support to break a new guy out of it, and even then a new PC can be a guilty pleasure.

It is tough to have those kinds of conversations. Most guys - whether in the business or not - aren't natively the kind of hipster or metro sexual that has ever cared enough about what they wear and how that clothing is built to function. And even when you do talk about it, actually sorting gear out in size and profile for any given person and place is a real challenge. Sometimes, even the otherwise switched on guys will say kitten it and grab the battle rattle for class.

[Tamara]

Here's the wilder question: why do guys who've NEVER been in the military, tactical LE job, or overseas armed contractor role have battle rigs and take them to classes instead of EDC gear?

This I do not get (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2010/04/train-like-you-fight.html).

I'll note one possible exception: Depending on where the course is being held and how the trainer runs his line, some way of having several mags on or about your person so that you don't have to go jogging back to the rear every five minutes might not be a bad idea, but I know that in the limited amount of long gun school I've been to, I've been running reloads with of the magazine in my left hip pocket, because that's where it's 99% likely to be should I ever be grabbing up the house gun in real life.

(I chickened out of rocking my big fluffy red bathrobe on TD3 of Awerbuck's class, although Louis was totally hip with the idea. August in Indiana is just not friendly to terrycloth overgarments...)

[GJM]

Here's the wilder question: why do guys who've NEVER been in the military, tactical LE job, or overseas armed contractor role have battle rigs and take them to classes instead of EDC gear?

You obviously know the answer -- little boys like to play army, and big boys, too.

Ever been to a Pat Rogers class ... in a t shirt?

I will say that in most of Alaska and occasionally in parts of the intermountain west, it is common to see people wearing exposed firearms, and nobody really cares how you carry your exposed firearm. A Safariland drop holster works quite well when hunting with a pack on, but even then, a battle rig would look major dorky.

[ToddG]

G -- To me, at least, that's 180 out from the issue here. If someone ACTUALLY WEARS THAT GEAR every day or even some reasonable amount of time, then it's his REAL GEAR. I'd never make fun of you for practicing with your hiking setup. But if I showed up with the same gear, knowing I'll never hike within 50mi of a bear...

[EricP]

I'm a firm believer in training or just shooting from normal carry gear. I shot an IDPA match earlier today where the SO asked me where my tactical fishing vest was. When I pointed to the polo shirt I was wearing, he replied, "oh, you're one of those." I'm still not sure what that meant.

[LittleLebowski]

Ever been to a Pat Rogers class ... in a t shirt?


I plan to sooner or later and totally agree with you.

[Tamara]

I'm still not sure what that meant.

The Group W bench. Sadly, there's no "askance" smiley. ;)

[EricP]

The Group W bench.

I don't know what that meant either.:o

[GardoneVT]

Statistically speaking, the typical self defense encounter-be it on the street or in the home-ends inside of 7 yards in 6 seconds. Again, statistically speaking, most defensive incidents end when the bad guy hits the bricks at the sight of his intended victim's weapon.

As such, "Realistic" training would logically consist of extensive legal education on the use of force and repetitive training with small, concealable firearms of various calibers SMALLER then 9mm .

That wouldn't be a very sexy pistol class would it-and lets not forget, all that ammo and steel/paper targets cost money. At some point the instructor has to pay his phone bill too. The "tacticool" gear and drills might be flowery excess, but its fun and builds mental confidence in the student-and fights are won not with guns or bullets but with minds. You may not like the faux special forces aspect, but its a lot better then untrained people walking about with firearms-or worse, trained students scared at the moment of truth.

[Shellback]

Seemed appropriate...

http://www.deathvalleymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/train.jpg

[LSP972]

I'm a firm believer in training or just shooting from normal carry gear. I shot an IDPA match earlier today where the SO asked me where my tactical fishing vest was. When I pointed to the polo shirt I was wearing, he replied, "oh, you're one of those." I'm still not sure what that meant.

Don't you just love those tools? Even better are the clueless ones... especially when they should know better. At our last retiree re-qual, I was standing at my point on the 25 yard line, waiting for a few stragglers to get positioned so we could do the deal. I was "decked out" in my every day attire; Doc Marten shoes, Docker khakis, and a hawaiian shirt. The important stuff was IWB on the strong side, with an OWB mag pouch on the off side, a few extra magazines in the front pockets, and enough loose cartridges to finish the "course" in my right hip pocket; all, of course, covered by the shirt.

I was actually leaning against the barricade; one of the safety officers, a youngster I had never seen before, walked up to me and said in a pseudo-polite/yet snotty voice, "You know, you really need a pistol to do this."

Any number of witty ripostes came to mind, but in the end I just looked at him. That seemed to unnerve him a bit, and he moved off. I didn't see him after that... pity, because I wanted to ask him a question or two.:rolleyes:

In your case, I would have pointedly asked the RO just what, exactly, was "one of those"?

I don't mind that sort of nonsense from the unwashed; they really don't know any better. But one (allegedly) of our own? Nope, can't let it slide...

.

[LSP972]

The Group W bench.

I plead ignorance on that one as well.

'Splain it to us, please.

.

[Shipwreck]

No one else visiting hi rise buildings, looking for german-type accented terrorists?

Am I the only one? I've got the Beretta thing covered ;)

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g320/mistershipwreck/Smiley/thicon_lol.gif~originalhttp://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g320/mistershipwreck/Smiley/thicon_lol.gif~originalhttp://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g320/mistershipwreck/Smiley/thicon_lol.gif~original

[Tamara]

"Realistic" training would logically consist of ... repetitive training with small, concealable firearms of various calibers SMALLER then 9mm .

Why wouldn't I use my CCW gun?

[Tamara]

I plead ignorance on that one as well.

'Splain it to us, please.

.

The Group W bench is explained here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice%27s_Restaurant#Incident). :)

(I just thought everybody knew "Alice's Restaurant". :o )

[NETim]

I'd like to think I am. I don't even wear 5.11's to training events anymore. :) I just show up in some ragbag t-shirt and non-descript on sale Bargain Cave Cabelas pants. Might dress up and wear some gun related t-shirt if I'm feelin' sporty.

However, there's always a full size pistol on the waistband. :)

Recently however I was told on another forum by a retired cop that I was wasting my time and money paying for professional training. All I need to do is shoot competition and I'll learn everything I need to know about tactics and the legalities of using lethal force there.


:rolleyes:

I can't begin to recount the staggering amount of absolute nonsense offered as "expert" advice at the range over the years.

[41magfan]

Statistically speaking, the typical self defense encounter-be it on the street or in the home-ends inside of 7 yards in 6 seconds. Again, statistically speaking, most defensive incidents end when the bad guy hits the bricks at the sight of his intended victim's weapon.

As such, "Realistic" training would logically consist of extensive legal education on the use of force and repetitive training with small, concealable firearms of various calibers SMALLER then 9mm .

That wouldn't be a very sexy pistol class would it-and lets not forget, all that ammo and steel/paper targets cost money. At some point the instructor has to pay his phone bill too. The "tacticool" gear and drills might be flowery excess, but its fun and builds mental confidence in the student-and fights are won not with guns or bullets but with minds. You may not like the faux special forces aspect, but its a lot better then untrained people walking about with firearms-or worse, trained students scared at the moment of truth.

If I grasp what you're saying correctly - I have to agree.

The target engagement distance for most "trainers" begins at a point where most real-life civilian encounters tend to end - which is usually inside of ten to fifteen feet.

It's a total waste of time to expose most casual gun toters (which make up the overwhelming majority of the concealed carry population) to targets or scenarios beyond 20' UNTIL they can consistently operate inside this critical space with their LCP's, Kel-Tecs and J-Frames. Most "trainers" don't even know how to competently address pocket carry, purse carry of any other non-traditional method with these platforms because they've never done it, but that's the means and methods that 90% of these folks use.

Sadly, the kind of training most civilians need is hard to sell and find for two reasons; it lacks any gloss or cool factor, and neither party (the teacher or the student) fully appreciates what should be a priority.

[Ed L]

First, it depends if we are talking about carbine classes or handgun classes.

Most carbine classes require you to bring 3-4 spare magazines to the line as a matter of convenience to keep the class running and minimize the amount of time spent going back and forth and forth to get new mags or to load them. This necessitates some type of chest rig, vest, or special belt.

A similar thing exists in handgun classes, where students often carry more mags than they would normally carry for the sake of expediency, or even to meet the class requirements. This is often beyond what their normal carry setup can accommodate.

Also, as TPD223 said,
I do note that many course are not really conducive to running your gun from something like a Summer Special under a T-shirt.

What works with a small group of friends who are experienced shooters doesn't always translate into a larger formal class with unfamiliar attendees of unknown skill levels.

[Tamara]

It's a total waste of time to expose most casual gun toters ...

Truthfully? I come to this forum to get away from casual gun toters.

[ToddG]

It's a total waste of time to expose most casual gun toters...

1. Casual gun toters do not make up the bulk of students at higher level (post-CCW certification) classes, though. You don't go to Porsche Racing School hoping to spend time mastering your three point turn and parallel parking.

2. There is a huge difference between what I'd teach a guy who's never going to set foot on the range again versus a guy who is going to spend a day a week practicing for the next five years.


What works with a small group of friends who are experienced shooters doesn't always translate into a larger formal class with unfamiliar attendees of unknown skill levels.

I wouldn't attend a class that required me to dumb down my gear for the sake of lowest common denominator.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Here's the wilder question: why do guys who've NEVER been in the military, tactical LE job, or overseas armed contractor role have battle rigs and take them to classes instead of EDC gear?



If I may ask, why do guys who have no LE or .mil purpose take classes that require battle rigs, drop leg holsters, and AR's, or what I call 'Warrior Fantasy Camp?' Train for the fight you are most likely to experience rather than what you experience in your wildest fantasies.

Excellent topic, OP.

[41magfan]

Truthfully? I come to this forum to get away from casual gun toters.

If I understand you correctly, I might be doing the same thing. But the population that I was referring to has absolutely NO interest in the things we discuss and that was the point I hope came across.

[tremiles]

Since the mgmt. of my local range doesn't allow a draw from a holster except in matches, I shoot IDPA in my everyday carry gear. I was surprised when the RSO of my first IDPA match looked at me like I had a 2nd head when I showed up in a golf shirt as my concealment garment and IWB holster.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4

[Wendell]

If I may ask, why do guys who have no LE or .mil purpose take classes that require battle rigs, drop leg holsters, and AR's, or what I call 'Warrior Fantasy Camp?'

Please define "...a well regulated militia..."

[Tamara]

Please define "...a well regulated militia..."

"Racists"?

(Sorry, I listened to NPR today. It gets in your head.)

[LittleLebowski]

Please define "...a well regulated militia..."

Not war belts and multicam at classes 1-3x a year.

[Tamara]

Not war belts and multicam at classes 1-3x a year.

Unless they're going to those 1-3 classes with the same ten guys from the neighborhood every year. Given actual expenditures of ball and shot, that probably gives them a leg up on the residents of late 18th Century suburban Boston in the marksmanship department, if not close-order drill.

For preference, though, I'd make sure I was getting my CQB Team Tactics Fantasy Camp from a real ex-MLBer and not a Rotisserie League player. ;)

[Ed L]

I wrote:


What works with a small group of friends who are experienced shooters doesn't always translate into a larger formal class with unfamiliar attendees of unknown skill levels.

Todd responded:


I wouldn't attend a class that required me to dumb down my gear for the sake of lowest common denominator.

What I meant is that if you have a small group of experienced guys who know each other, some things are not a big deal that might be an issue in a formal class. For example, shooters leaving the line whenever they wanted to top off mags and then returning.

[Bigguy]

Please define "...a well regulated militia..."
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason - Co-author of the Second Amendment during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

[KravPirate]

If I may ask, why do guys who have no LE or .mil purpose take classes that require battle rigs, drop leg holsters, and AR's, or what I call 'Warrior Fantasy Camp?' Train for the fight you are most likely to experience rather than what you experience in your wildest fantasies.

Excellent topic, OP.

Because I believe that self defense and self preservation is an individual's responsibility and obligation to society. Don't get me wrong, I train daily in empty hand and regularly with what I carry but I find comfort in the fact that I know how to run an AR hard if necessary.

[Sparks2112]

I had a conversation with Sean about plates awhile ago, and mentioned that I was wanting to pick a set up. He kind of asked me why, I'm pretty sure waiting for me to say the usual stupid blah blah tangos to my 12 and my 6 etc...

Because I don't know who's standing next to me on the line at a rifle course and I'd like to have something between me and the ND that catches me between the shoulder blades when I'm not looking. If/when I end up with armor it would be to protect from that. I'll still have my Duluth Trading co cargo pants with flip-flops on. When I'm not wearing it to shoot with unknown people at a rifle class then I'll leave it with my rifle. If I have time to get it on should the need arise, groovy. If not, eh...

Getting some soft armor fitted for pistol classes is on my list as well. At this point I'm hitting enough of them that it wouldn't be a terrible idea, and I'm seeing more stupid things happen as I shoot more places.

That's pretty much the only reason I WANT armor or would take classes wearing it.

[GardoneVT]

Why wouldn't I use my CCW gun?

This is a good juncture to expound on something.

Most of us on this forum are,shall we say, a little different from your typical unwashed gun owner.I am light years away from Rob Leathams capabilities, and yet at the public range there is an audience watching me shoot!

The average American gun owner -if they carry at all-buys a gun based on a foggy combination of peer pressure and hype.Training?Four Commandments of Safety? Nope.They buy a pistol, stick it some place based on a Hollywood action movie made by an anti gun director ,and call it good.Most police officers aren't much better-extra training for patrol officers is secondary to the "Domestic Violence Awareness PowerPoint",natch.

Training for folks like us is incomprehensible to 90% of our fellow gun shop and range brethren.As such,the instructors today have to walk a fine line between "practical" and "rule of cool".Too much practical, and Bubba-who REALLY needs to be there-is lost .Too much rule of cool means you learn advanced skills with no bearing on your daily life.A rifle-to-pistol transition technique is useless to someone carrying a .380 in a corporate NPE.

[BLR]

I had a conversation with Sean about plates awhile ago, and mentioned that I was wanting to pick a set up. He kind of asked me why, I'm pretty sure waiting for me to say the usual stupid blah blah tangos to my 12 and my 6 etc...

Because I don't know who's standing next to me on the line at a rifle course and I'd like to have something between me and the ND that catches me between the shoulder blades when I'm not looking. If/when I end up with armor it would be to protect from that. I'll still have my Duluth Trading co cargo pants with flip-flops on. When I'm not wearing it to shoot with unknown people at a rifle class then I'll leave it with my rifle. If I have time to get it on should the need arise, groovy. If not, eh...

Getting some soft armor fitted for pistol classes is on my list as well. At this point I'm hitting enough of them that it wouldn't be a terrible idea, and I'm seeing more stupid things happen as I shoot more places.

That's pretty much the only reason I WANT armor or would take classes wearing it.

I think the Jimmy class thread run here recently demonstrated that armor in classes is a good idea.

[1slow]

I shoot all classes in my CCW gear. This includes Bill Rogers Intermediate/advanced pistol and Pat Rogers Carbine.
In the carbine classes I use the same AIWB and mag carriers I CCW. I use a shoulder bag with spare carbine mags and a blowout kit. This is what I am likely to have if I use a carbine. I also put a spare carbine mag in my back pocket and train reloads from both. I've shot multiple Pat Rogers classes with this, no issues. It is a clumsier set up than a chest rig etc....but it is what I would quickly throw on over my CCW gear if I had time. Pick up carbine, throw bag over shoulder, move.
I'm unlikely to ever be in a situation with time and need to put on a leg holster and plate carrier with mags.
I have looked at running a plate carrier with a holster mounted to approximately Appendix so as to have commonality with my CCW gear if I was to use a carrier/chest rack.

[41magfan]

This comment only applies to clothing and the associated carry method, but I often asked myself the question regarding a particular method : "What kind of life do these people live that allows them to wear that manner of dress ALL the time or even MOST of the time that they're NOT on a range."

I'm reasonably certain I know the answer, and I'm not being critical - I'm just throwing it out there as food for thought.

[KevinB]

Well it seems the thread hit a nerve -- which I think is good, admittedly I did not expect all the interest.

Obviously for CQB classes - helmets and plates are a necessity of most kill houses from a liability/risk mitigation standpoint , however how realistic is that for the majority of folks? When things go bump in the night - how many folks break out your nomex, put on plates and don your ANVIS goggles?
Probably no one right? Even if your go to HD weapon is a rifle/carbine.

I shoot a lot more rifle than I do pistol, I've still never shot anyone with a pistol - but I have not deployed anywhere since 1993 without a pistol.
However pistol training is about the most transferable skill in shooting to anything else - errors masked in other weapons show up so much more predominately in a pistol, and frankly pistol ammo is usually a ton cheaper than rifle ammo.

If I ever need a rifle outside my house, its going to be a bad day. Now I'm not saying that training like that is bad. But generally I believe that myself and most others who no longer professional rifle carriers, or never where, are MUCH more better off taking pistol training for at least 75% of our training allotment, and running it in EDC gear.

[GJM]

This comment only applies to clothing and the associated carry method, but I often asked myself the question regarding a particular method : "What kind of life do these people live that allows them to wear that manner of dress ALL the time or even MOST of the time that they're NOT on a range."


Move to Alaska, and recreate outside of our one city, Anchorage, and they will fit right in. Most everyone has a firearm -- handgun, long gun or both, and nobody would look twice at a drop/chest/shoulder/belt holster. Still, the battle belt and chest rig would look dorky, and probably last all of 10 minutes as it would be cumbersome to wear and do stuff like fish, hunt and hike.

[KravPirate]

This comment only applies to clothing and the associated carry method, but I often asked myself the question regarding a particular method : "What kind of life do these people live that allows them to wear that manner of dress ALL the time or even MOST of the time that they're NOT on a range."

I'm reasonably certain I know the answer, and I'm not being critical - I'm just throwing it out there as food for thought.

True. Any AR class I have taken I had one kytac mag carrier and the other mags were stuffed in my jean pockets. I do this because if I need my AR then that is how I will be running it for real. I don't even own plate carriers or other mil type stuff.

[GJM]

If I ever need a rifle outside my house, its going to be a bad day. Now I'm not saying that training like that is bad. But generally I believe that myself and most others who no longer professional rifle carriers, or never where, are MUCH more better off taking pistol training for at least 75% of our training allotment, and running it in EDC gear.

Interesting, in rural Alaska it is the opposite -- if you ever need a handgun, it is a really bad day, because it likely means you don't have your shotgun or rifle when the bears decides you are on the PNG list. Of course in Alaska, males are born with all the knowledge they need to operate a firearm in a defensive encounter, so you don't see many out there training with their shotguns and rifles beyond an initial sight in session.

[KevinB]

Interesting, in rural Alaska it is the opposite -- if you ever need a handgun, it is a really bad day, because it likely means you don't have your shotgun or rifle when the bears decides you are on the PNG list. Of course in Alaska, males are born with all the knowledge they need to operate a firearm in a defensive encounter, so you don't see many out there training with their shotguns and rifles beyond an initial sight in session.

You notice I said NEED - not have ;)

I guess I should have been clearer in my above -- I mean for offensive/defensive usage against a human threat (to the point that would I would be wearing plates etc.) I was not referring to everyday 'recreational' carrying.

Environmentals obviously change depending on your location, as well as the "suitability" of walking around with a rifle. I think in NOVA if I went down the Starbucks with my SR-25 slung, the Sheriff's would be over to talk to me pretty quick, even though I would be doing nothing illegal.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Please define "...a well regulated militia..."


The Militia Act of 1792, Passed May 8, 1792, providing federal standards for the organization of the Militia.

An ACT more effectually to provide for the National Defence, by establishing an Uniform Militia throughout the United States.

I. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, That each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective States, resident therein, who is or shall be of age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years (except as is herein after excepted) shall severally and respectively be enrolled in the militia, by the Captain or Commanding Officer of the company, within whose bounds such citizen shall reside, and that within twelve months after the passing of this Act. And it shall at all time hereafter be the duty of every such Captain or Commanding Officer of a company, to enroll every such citizen as aforesaid, and also those who shall, from time to time, arrive at the age of 18 years, or being at the age of 18 years, and under the age of 45 years (except as before excepted) shall come to reside within his bounds; and shall without delay notify such citizen of the said enrollment, by the proper non-commissioned Officer of the company, by whom such notice may be proved. That every citizen, so enrolled and notified, shall, within six months thereafter, provide himself with a good musket or firelock, a sufficient bayonet and belt, two spare flints, and a knapsack, a pouch, with a box therein, to contain not less than twenty four cartridges, suited to the bore of his musket or firelock, each cartridge to contain a proper quantity of powder and ball; or with a good rifle, knapsack, shot-pouch, and powder-horn, twenty balls suited to the bore of his rifle, and a quarter of a pound of powder; and shall appear so armed, accoutred and provided, when called out to exercise or into service, except, that when called out on company days to exercise only, he may appear without a knapsack. That the commissioned Officers shall severally be armed with a sword or hanger, and espontoon; and that from and after five years from the passing of this Act, all muskets from arming the militia as is herein required, shall be of bores sufficient for balls of the eighteenth part of a pound; and every citizen so enrolled, and providing himself with the arms, ammunition and accoutrements, required as aforesaid, shall hold the same exempted from all suits, distresses, executions or sales, for debt or for the payment of taxes.

And further...

VII. And be it further enacted, That the rules of discipline, approved and established by Congress, in their resolution of the twenty-ninth of March, 1779, shall be the rules of discipline so be observed by the militia throughout the United States, except such deviations from the said rules, as may be rendered necessary by the requisitions of the Act, or by some other unavoidable circumstances. It shall be the duty of the Commanding Officer as every muster, whether by battalion, regiment, or single company, to cause the militia to be exercised and trained, agreeably to the said rules of said discipline.



http://www.constitution.org/mil/mil_act_1792.htm

As I understand it, well regulated meant that the militia would be properly drilled, equipped in a manner so that they would be able to perform the job they were supposed to do.

People like to talk about the second amendment in terms of a "Citizen Militia equipped with the small arms of the day..." and thats all well and good...

But rarely do they want to talk about the "Well Regulated" part, which means that when you were part of the militia, you were expected to be able to perform your job on demand.

What is a well regulated militia?

Today, it would likely have to do with someone being a reserve infantryman or trained to the same standard.

[LittleLebowski]

If I ever need a rifle outside my house, its going to be a bad day. Now I'm not saying that training like that is bad. But generally I believe that myself and most others who no longer professional rifle carriers, or never where, are MUCH more better off taking pistol training for at least 75% of our training allotment, and running it in EDC gear.

Yup. The fantasy camps aren't for me and I realized that a long time ago. Good on ya if you want to play military but I'd rather be realistic about myself and what is likely to happen.

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa336/EricPfleger/patrolling13/tmcorichardscam780_zps018d49b4.jpg[/img]

[Chuck Haggard]

Holy Kittens Batman!

Tell me that isn't a pic of guys doing a simulated check on a dead bad guy, or arrest, and using live weapons and ammo with a live role player.

[LittleLebowski]

Holy Kittens Batman!

Tell me that isn't a pic of guys doing a simulated check on a dead bad guy, or arrest, and using live weapons and ammo with a live role player.

PM inbound.

[Sadmin]

Great topic and it seems there is a shift towards this mentality lately. It's a welcomed savings to allocate previous rifle class funds to events that better meet my paradigm. I've all but sworn off carbine training unless I just have an extra 500 laying around. In my opinion, civys should focus on a gym membership, blade/ecqc, and handgun. Don't get me wrong, always room to improve, but if you have already taken a few carbine classes from top instructors, just get out there and apply solo.

Eta/ med classes should be in there too which I've yet to be in.


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[fn/form]

Some shooters are wearing the GI Joe equipment due to personal experience and commitment to readiness. I speak for my immediate family and friends, and I speak outside active military and LE. Post-enlistment, off-duty or no public service whatsoever.

Our personal experience includes war, 3rd World civil life, foreign and domestic natural disasters and personal exposure to 1st world violence both municipal and rural.

Commitment to readiness is: that those experiences will not be repeated, or at least they will not permanently affect our family and community if we can help it. Like a spare tire, it’s not something I carry inside the car with me every day I drive. But it’s maintained properly.

Also, as referenced earlier, some citizens believe firearm skill is a civic responsibility. It’s been a good while since I read his works, but I remember Herbert McBride lamented the marksmanship skill in *his* lifetime. As we all know, proficient combat firearm skill is not built overnight, on demand or in boot camp.

Competition and training are what you make of them. For some events I run 100% street. Others I run a practical GI Joe rig.

The above doesn’t represent every gear queer you see at a class. And your personal experience, decisions and commitments to “training” may lie elsewhere. I work to respect and enjoy the company of any shooters in public as long as we’re responsible.

And sometimes it is work when we’re mixing in personal opinions as facts… and addings things like stupid IDPA rules.

[Tamara]

This comment only applies to clothing and the associated carry method, but I often asked myself the question regarding a particular method : "What kind of life do these people live that allows them to wear that manner of dress ALL the time or even MOST of the time that they're NOT on a range."

I'm reasonably certain I know the answer, and I'm not being critical - I'm just throwing it out there as food for thought.

I wear blue jeans and an untucked, unbuttoned overshirt year 'round because I'm an self-unemployed bum who works from home, that's how. (And before that, I worked in places where an exposed gun was expected.) I realize that not everybody lives my pre-retired relaxed grooming standards lifestyle.

[Tamara]

If I ever need a rifle outside my house, its going to be a bad day. Now I'm not saying that training like that is bad. But generally I believe that myself and most others who no longer professional rifle carriers, or never where, are MUCH more better off taking pistol training for at least 75% of our training allotment, and running it in EDC gear.

Word.

(Plus, as Shootin' Buddy says, carbine classes are like fly paper for mall ninjas. :D )

[Tamara]

Holy Kittens Batman!

Tell me that isn't a pic of guys doing a simulated check on a dead bad guy, or arrest, and using live weapons and ammo with a live role player.

I think I see a chamber flag, so it's all cool. :rolleyes:

[Drang]

If I may ask, why do guys who have no LE or .mil purpose take classes that require battle rigs, drop leg holsters, and AR's, or what I call 'Warrior Fantasy Camp?' Train for the fight you are most likely to experience rather than what you experience in your wildest fantasies.

Excellent topic, OP.

Because they feel like it.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Because they feel like it.Then I am glad, it provides for entertainment.

[Tamara]

Because they feel like it.

Yeah, but that's never the answer I get; there's always endless sketchy excuse-making about "When The ______ Invade" or whatever.

If somebody would just say "Because I wanted to go to Call of Duty fantasy camp, so kitten you, that's why!" I would say "Hey, awesome! Rock on!" I know people who dress up like knights and beat on each other with wooden swords all weekend for fun, so why not ones who dress up like Delta Force and shoot cardboard terrorists? It's still (mostly) a free country.

As a matter of fact, it would be nice if both students and instructors who were into that were more honest about it so that fantasy S.W.A.T. camps could advertise themselves as such and somebody who just wants to work on some basic short- to mid-range carbine skills and have somebody grade their manipulations isn't stuck doing Australian peels with complete strangers whose only known qualification to fill a seat was the ability to sign a check.

[LittleLebowski]

"Entertrainment" seems to be the proper term and I don't begrudge them the fantasy camp; I just harken back to the OP and why KevinB wants to train more realistically.

[GardoneVT]

Yeah, but that's never the answer I get; there's always endless sketchy excuse-making about "When The ______ Invade" or whatever.

If somebody would just say "Because I wanted to go to Call of Duty fantasy camp, so kitten you, that's why!" I would say "Hey, awesome! Rock on!" I know people who dress up like knights and beat on each other with wooden swords all weekend for fun, so why not ones who dress up like Delta Force and shoot cardboard terrorists? It's still (mostly) a free country.

As a matter of fact, it would be nice if both students and instructors who were into that were more honest about it so that fantasy S.W.A.T. camps could advertise themselves as such and somebody who just wants to work on some basic short- to mid-range carbine skills and have somebody grade their manipulations isn't stuck doing Australian peels with complete strangers whose only known qualification to fill a seat was the ability to sign a check.

The problem is that most gun owners are still stuck in the "hardware = competency" phase of thinking.

Most of the people in those faux-military training schools are people who think that the guy-or girl-with the biggest magazine and the baddest rifle will win. Considering the waistlines of most people I see at the range, the fact is the scumbag who goes by the alias Mr. Cholesterol represents the biggest tactical threat to their safety.

We here on this forum know different. Ultimately, we've all accurately concluded that mindset is what wins fights. Unfortunately not many people share that viewpoint; and meanwhile instructors have to pay their bills. If 9 people out of 10 think that deadliness is quantified by how badass your chest rig is, that's a clientele you either serve or watch your competitors serve for you. Nature of the beast when dealing with large numbers of people.

One thing's for sure: I won't be employed as a gun instructor even if I was the best shot on Earth. Why? Because the moment I see a fat student saunter up to my range, he's going home with a refund check and a comp'ed gym membership to the nearest facility.

[JHC]

HEY!!! You'all are outta your lane. You've all been warned. :cool:

[ffhounddog]

Even though I do deploy and I have gear from my last deployment (Paraclette plate carrier) I have devoted most of the past year to the pistol because of having to have it more often. Granted the P2000sk LEM in 40 is going to be a P30 DA/SA and a P2000sk V3 to stick with one type of trigger.

Now if I did not have to do a ton of work I would be going to the range more than 3 times a month.

[ToddG]

I think in NOVA if I went down the Starbucks with my SR-25 slung, the Sheriff's would be over to talk to me pretty quick, even though I would be doing nothing illegal.

Awesome way to introduce yourself to a potential new customer, though. Think of how many cops you could meet at once if you did that in, say, NYC! You should totally try it...

[GardoneVT]

Awesome way to introduce yourself to a potential new customer, though. Think of how many cops you could meet at once if you did that in, say, NYC! You should totally try it...

Considering the NYPD's marksmanship record of late, he wouldn't even be injured when the lead started flying.

:o

[ToddG]

Considering the NYPD's marksmanship record of late,

Check your SOP-9's. Actual data contradict that statement.

[YVK]

Here's the wilder question: why do guys who've NEVER been in the military, tactical LE job, or overseas armed contractor role have battle rigs and take them to classes instead of EDC gear?

Ease of learning and ability to follow courses of fire is one good reason. Most rifle classes I've taken wanted to you have at least four mags on a line of fire. While I clearly realized how grotesque I looked in my bearing vest when I started to learn a carbine, the only aspects I needed to concentrate were safety, weapon's manipulation and shooting. That made learning a lot easier, comparing to those folks who tried to reload from a cargo pocket on a move rather unsuccessfully because a) cargo pockets move when one moves b) reload mag fell out 5 yards back...

One year I decided I needed to be realistic and ran three mag pouches off the belt in Rogers class. Same belt that had pistol and pistol mags on.
That turned out far from optimal, and far from realistic. That made me pause and think "What's realistic AR setup for civilian?" A single mag pouch? A Redi-Mod? Just a loaded AR? I gave up, and at this point I don't care. If class description specifies more than two mags on you on the line of fire, I run the vest and don't give a damn. In own training, and little carbine drill sessions that SecondCount has set up, I run more "realistic" single pouch.




...plates..Because I don't know who's standing next to me on the line at a rifle course and I'd like to have something between me and the ND that catches me between the shoulder blades when I'm not looking.


Count me in. I bought my plates after witnessing NDs in two back to back carbine classes I had attended. Next class I was on the line next to an absolute newbie whose handling skills required one of instructors to stand behind him most of the time.. I don't care if it is a shoothouse, NODs class or basic refresher, if there are long arms involved my plates go on, at least at the beginning.



When things go bump in the night - how many folks break out your nomex, put on plates and don your ANVIS goggles?
Probably no one right? Even if your go to HD weapon is a rifle/carbine.
.

I know this is going to raise many eyebrows, but plates are a part of my plan. They are more accessible than my carbine, and are right next to the safe. If I have time to retrieve carbine, I have time to put on plates, and I'll start with latter.

[Chuck Haggard]

I think I see a chamber flag, so it's all cool. :rolleyes:

Oh, well then, by all means, carry on.


Oh, and as mentioned by someone earlier, I do find that pistol training translates to carbine proficiency far better than the other way around.

[GardoneVT]

Check your SOP-9's. Actual data contradict that statement.

The last form I had to review was RAND Corporation study on their hit percentages ,with a broader focus on lethal force and liability.IIRC the hit rates were in the low 20th percentile - while I realize that a two way range isn't remotely like its practice equivalent,other police agencies manage better under similar conditions.I freely state that my info could be outdated.

[NETim]

Oh, well then, by all means, carry on.


Oh, and as mentioned by someone earlier, I do find that pistol training translates to carbine proficiency far better than the other way around.

I've long suspected as much.

[Tamara]

Oh, and as mentioned by someone earlier, I do find that pistol training translates to carbine proficiency far better than the other way around.

Seriously on that topic: The last two times I have live-fired a shotgun have been in the 2012 and 2103 CTC Midnight 3 Gun matches. Both times, the shotgun was the one weapon I was most lights-out with, and last year I was even shooting a borrowed shotgun of a model I'd never run before. Sure, my reloads from the sidesaddle or the vest pocket were slow and grotty, but putting the hurt on <20yd targets with the gauge was like falling off a log. Carbine? Same-same. I can go six months between long gun sessions and still be reasonably certain of putting steel on target as long as I don't let myself get rushed.

Pistol, though? Skip three or four weeks of pistol shooting and the result is immediately noticeable even at the seven yard line.

[Tamara]

That made me pause and think "What's realistic AR setup for civilian?" A single mag pouch? A Redi-Mod? Just a loaded AR? I gave up, and at this point I don't care. If class description specifies more than two mags on you on the line of fire, I run the vest and don't give a damn. In own training, and little carbine drill sessions that SecondCount has set up, I run more "realistic" single pouch.

Disagree. (At least for myself...) In Real Life™, I have a spare mag staged on the carbine with a big honkin' rubber band (although I'm open to better ideas.)

If I grab that thing while someone is kicking on the security door or overturning cop cars down the block, I'll pull the mag off the gun and stuff it in my hip pocket. This seems easy and simple. As a consequence, if I'm reloading under those circumstances, the reload is coming out of the hip pocket, regardless of how suboptimal it is. At gun school, therefore, I may have a bunch of mags in a chest rig or in a pouch hanging off the strong side of my belt, but that's just a reservoir to make sure I always have a mag in my left hip pocket.

[Kevin B.]

I have no problem with someone attending a course dressed like an assaulter. It is a free country and he is free to dress a he pleases. Frankly, my wife spends a significant amount of time trying to get me to dress like he does when he goes to work.

Truth be told, if indulging his fantasy helps him become more proficient with his handgun/carbine, I am good with that. I do, however, draw the line at entertaining his "war stories."

If I am in an open enrollment class where the subject matter does not require body armor/plates/helmet, I do not bring it. My typical SOP is to position myself all the way at one end of the firing line (preferably the left) and in the second or third firing order, if there is one. If, at any point, I feel like I need to be wearing body armor, I have a conversation with the instructor. Either the offending party leaves or I do, refund or not. Come to think of it, that rule applies in closed courses where body armor/plates/helmet are required too.

Nobody is teaching anything so new or so important, that I am willing to risk catching a bullet to learn it.

[Sparks2112]

I have no problem with someone attending a course dressed like an assaulter. It is a free country and he is free to dress a he pleases. Frankly, my wife spends a significant amount of time trying to get me to dress like he does when he goes to work.

Truth be told, if indulging his fantasy helps him become more proficient with his handgun/carbine, I am good with that. I do, however, draw the line at entertaining his "war stories."

If I am in an open enrollment class where the subject matter does not require body armor/plates/helmet, I do not bring it. My typical SOP is to position myself all the way at one end of the firing line (preferably the left) and in the second or third firing order, if there is one. If, at any point, I feel like I need to be wearing body armor, I have a conversation with the instructor. Either the offending party leaves or I do, refund or not. Come to think of it, that rule applies in closed courses where body armor/plates/helmet are required too.

Nobody is teaching anything so new or so important, that I am willing to risk catching a bullet to learn it.

I'm not scared of the easy to spot idiots. I'm scared of the professional who has an idiot moment...

[JAD]

. I bought my plates after witnessing NDs in two back to back carbine classes I had attended. .

That would make me stop attending carbine courses.

Of course, I'd have to start again first. I've had two, they were pretty good, and while I suppose I could stand a refresher there are like six handgun and maybe a shotgun course I'd like to take before I even think about dusting off my lone Wilderness AR pouch. Which at my current rate means ten to twenty.

You guys may have talked me into selling my AR.


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[Kevin B.]

I'm not scared of the easy to spot idiots. I'm scared of the professional who has an idiot moment...

Fair enough.

[walkin' trails]

Here's the wilder question: why do guys who've NEVER been in the military, tactical LE job, or overseas armed contractor role have battle rigs and take them to classes instead of EDC gear?

I've noticed that too. I work for an organization that specializes in operating in civies and has a requirement to train every three months. It's the ones with no military experience who regularly show up with the tactical gear, and most of the former military arrive to shoot with as little as possible. I confess, as a former peace time reservist, that I have a Tactical Tailor chest rig for when I train with or utilize a carbine, but would rather showcase my Milt Sparks leather and dress as comfortably as possible for a long hot day.

[NETim]

Speaking of spare AR mags, Matt Bracken sez this:

http://westernrifleshooters.blogspot.com/2010/09/bracken-in-praise-of-duplexed-ar-mags.html

[ffhounddog]

Or just get a Surefure 60 or Magpul 40. Problem solved. In fact I think I need one or two of those Magpul 40's in a brown paper bag.

I use these at classes now. Works well.

http://www.kytexgear.com/products-page/rifle-mag-carriers/ar15/ar15-mag-carrier/

When I have to bundle up like a cold day class in November I will wear a Battle Belt and chest rig over my Jacket. It gets cold.

[peterb]

Yeah, but that's never the answer I get; there's always endless sketchy excuse-making about "When The ______ Invade" or whatever.

If somebody would just say "Because I wanted to go to Call of Duty fantasy camp, so kitten you, that's why!" I would say "Hey, awesome! Rock on!" I know people who dress up like knights and beat on each other with wooden swords all weekend for fun, so why not ones who dress up like Delta Force and shoot cardboard terrorists? It's still (mostly) a free country.

Sorta like the Harley guys in t-shirts and no helmet who tell you that the black leather vest and chaps are for crash protection. If one said "It probably wouldn't do a damn thing, but I don't want to look like some cubicle dork when I'm on my bike", I'd totally get it.

There's nothing wrong with costumes and fantasy as long as you know they're costumes and fantasy.

[ToddG]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/67f8aef76b63472c6058339c85544a13/tumblr_mfwztcg8Ab1qi0bloo1_250.gif http://24.media.tumblr.com/44b8dddbb4b461b04417c83df0a93ab3/tumblr_mfwztcg8Ab1qi0bloo2_250.gif

[KevinB]

Speaking of spare AR mags, Matt Bracken sez this:

http://westernrifleshooters.blogspot.com/2010/09/bracken-in-praise-of-duplexed-ar-mags.html

My guess is he has not fired enough rounds with them to see their pitfalls.

[helmets on]
Back in the day (okay around 10-11 years ago) we where doing our deployment run up for Afghan and we had a request by folks in our unit to get these things. Being the gun dork and having recently been raked over the coals from writing a scathing service paper on Small Arms Force Modernization in the Canadian Forces, my Col (Shandy Vida - best Col EVER) asked me about this -- we bought 6 different types of Mag Clamp and some Redi-Mag's.
Every one of the clamp versions had issues. Most relied on significant pressure on the mag bodies to anchor the mags to each other, this in turn with recoil caused bullets to pop out of the spare magazine while firing. Additionally stowage in pouches is pretty much impossible without a abnormally large pouch.
I think by mid tour - most folks had junked the mag clip methods
[helmet off]
IF one really wants a spare mag on the gun, I think the RediMag (or preferably the BFG Redi-Mod) is the way to go.
IF for some reason your wedded to the mag clip -- the Magpul clip is IMHO the way to go, it affixes in a manner that minimized pressure on the mag body, you need to be running PMAG's for it to work -- but frankly you should be doing that already.


I love carbine classes -- they are generally fun, even the ones that seem to think its like a 3-5 mini selection class. However I'm generally pretty selective on who I take carbine classes from. I use to break classes down into two categories - technical skills/mechanics, and tactical employment.
Generally for Carbine courses, for a TE class, if the instructor is not a recognized proficient former member of a SMU, I generally don't go, as I want someone who will push me to another level or get me thinking about issues differently.

However for pistol training part of my great epiphany was that a regardless of the skill level of the CAG or whatever entity Assaulter, that shooting from duty gear is a lot different from my EDC garb, also drawing a pistol from a Man Dress for a covert role is different as well.

So unless the individual does a lot of daily carry and practices like that with a degree of perfection that they would accept in their day job, they probably are not the best place for a pistol course. I'm looking for someone who can critique my concealed draw - make recommendations to how to improve it, and offer opinions on my gear selection.

Right now I carry a S&W 9mm CORE with a DeltaPoint -- now some of you may wonder Kevin WTF dude, but my line of thinking is 1) I can shoot it faster and more accurately on the move (people move in gunfights its a strange aspect I know) 2) I can make longer ranged hits with it faster and much more accurately.

As I mentioned in my opening thread my primary concern is the two (+) dudes with either bad parenting or religious issues that feel that their goal/role in life is to create fear and pain in the lives of many Americans and maybe get 15min of infamy.
Like LLB I generally try to avoid the MD/DC areas (*until my permits come in bitches) as 1) they are overcrowded, and unarmed -- to me that reads as target rich environment. When I do need to go to those places I do with a goal and try to leave quickly (does not always happen with HH6 and the kids wanting to see Zoo's and Museums). The same applies for areas of NOVA where there are a lot of people -- last thing I like to do is go to a mall, but once again... So my concern is IF I get stuck in an area (*where I am legally allowed to CCW) and the aforementioned threat incident occurs.
1) My primary job is to get my family out
2) I may need to engage a rifle armed threat with a handgun, distances in excess of 25m

While I would ideally be backpacking a 9" suppressed .300BK, according to my Commonwealth of Virginia paperwork, it is a Permit to carry a concealed handgun, not a concealed rifle. Lets be honest, rifles are much better fighting tools, both from accuracy and terminal effectiveness.

DO I think rifle training has a role in the CONUS by non Mil non LE folks -- ABSOLUTELY.

However I believe that in the what is needed area that it falls a distant second to relevant pistol training.

[YVK]

Disagree. (At least for myself...) In Real Life™...

Tam, I've given up figuring out a real life AR scenario for myself. Do I even need to worry about reloads? I've played out multiple setups. I have one of Suarez's man purse contraptions that carries several rifle and pistol mags, and have run one class from it. I've lugged around my SCAR in a tennis bag, and had one 20 rounder mag on a belt. Etc. Frankly, all these are not that far away from a load bearing vest on a reality spectrum for me.
I've settled on this: if it is a break in and I am lucky enough to retrieve my AR, I have 28 friends with me. If it is an unrest situation, I have time to don whatever I want.

[ffhounddog]

I use to leave a AR-15 in my truck. I know nuts right? But for awhile I just felt like someone was watching me. When the feeling left and the drones were replaced with bugs I felt a lot better.

Now on the Ranch I had a AR-15A1 type for Coyotes when I was out working on fence posts and the like. Never know when you need to take one down.

[MDS]

This is a great discussion. I think there's a lot of vagueness in the concepts involved. Context can range from coyotes on the ranch, bears in Alaska, urban walking life or suburban driving life. "Reality" might refer to the most likely scenarios you're likely to encounter as a civi (mugging or etc,) or the most deadly scenarios (active shooter at mall, rampage murderer picking your house at random, etc,) or to SHTF scenarios (NBC war, zombies.) "Training" might refer strictly to pistol skills, more broadly to shooting in general, or to self-defense skills overall, or to other related skills like medicine or community involvement. We all conceptualize these ideas a little differently, we all prioritize the related threats differently, and even if we were all talking about the same exact problem set, we'd all think of the "right answer" differently. Even as a single individual, my ideas have evolved pretty drastically after leaving Miami-Dade county and moving into the Rocky Mountain foothills. So it's real interesting to hear folks thinking through this stuff.

I like shooting, and in the end that's why I practice. I like the mountains, and in the end that's why I'm learning how to live and hunt in the backcountry. I've spent more money these last few years on guns and ammo, and these last few months on backpacking gear, than I could easily justify from a pure "needs" argument. They both fulfill a need - self-defense, self-reliance, knowledge and skills that could literally save lives - but if i was being mathematical I'd have gotten the basics down and moved on to other, more relevant skills.

Consider, my wife isn't particularly enamored of either shooting or camping, she has her own tastes and preferences. Sure, she tags along when we go camping, like I tag along when we go choose furniture. Take a guess who does all the planning and scouting for the camping vs the shopping trips? Now, quick: which set of skills is more applicable to the vastly more likely scenarios I'll encounter daily as a civilian? This isn't an argument - it's an exhibit. There's lots of personal taste and preference that goes into how we define "reality" and "need" and "training" for ourselves. And I wonder if it's possible - or advisable - to separate tastes and preferences from the question.

[TCinVA]

However I believe that in the what is needed area that it falls a distant second to relevant pistol training.

I've taken some stick on occasion for holding much the same view. If I am forced to kill someone, it's going to be with a pistol I pull out from under a polo shirt. If the chance comes to use the 6920, evidence thusfar seems to show that I won't be any worse off than the guys who spend copious time working carbines seeing as how I've been on the line with a bunch of 'em and either been competitive or beaten them when it comes to timed/scored drills. (Including some of the ones who hassled me about pistol stuff....which made me giggle.)

Ideally I'd like to be as good with a carbine as, say, Failure2Stop or SeanM, but until I hit the lotto or find myself on a SWAT team I don't think there's a lot of return on that investment for me.

[Chuck Haggard]

Seriously on that topic: The last two times I have live-fired a shotgun have been in the 2012 and 2103 CTC Midnight 3 Gun matches. Both times, the shotgun was the one weapon I was most lights-out with, and last year I was even shooting a borrowed shotgun of a model I'd never run before. Sure, my reloads from the sidesaddle or the vest pocket were slow and grotty, but putting the hurt on <20yd targets with the gauge was like falling off a log. Carbine? Same-same. I can go six months between long gun sessions and still be reasonably certain of putting steel on target as long as I don't let myself get rushed.

Pistol, though? Skip three or four weeks of pistol shooting and the result is immediately noticeable even at the seven yard line.

^This^

I once went almost a year without any rifle shooting, only shooting snub revolvers and my duty 5906, picked up a M16a1 off of the rack, zeroed it and won a statewide shooting competition against some pretty decent shooters, several from units with sponsored shooting teams.

If I had to get into an AR speedloading contest against a 3 gun guy I woulda lost, but shooting an army "combat" match involving position shooting from 300 to the 25 against both stationary and moving targets, and some PT, I did just fine.

No way I could pull that off with with a handgun while neglecting my pistol skills.


Some of the reasons outlined by Kevin are why I continue to carry a service sized pistol almost 100% of the time, and two reloads.

[Chuck Haggard]

Reference OMG!!!TSHHTF!!!TEOTWAWKI stuff. Very few people are SMEs on this, so I'll post this link on the subject from a guy who arguably is;

http://ferfal.blogspot.com/2013/06/rifles-in-shtf.html

Teaser;



....The handgun carried on daily basis should always be considered the main weapon of a modern survivalist. In this case, you don’t generally have a rifle with you, and you would only go for it if at home, when you have one within reach.
Because it wont be carried around concealed on your person, the role of the rifle will be more related to home defense.........

While I do believe in having body armor, you just don’t walk around all day dressed up like you may have done during a tour in Iraq. For the criminal going after you when you park in a strip mall or make a late night rush to the nearest gas station, that’s when the rifle and load bearing vest does you no good and you better have your CCW and the training so as to be proficient with it.

[NickA]

Great thread and comments so far; I've been mulling over the same things lately.
My pistol skills have degraded to serious suckage this year, but OTOH I've done ECQC, started BJJ, and made good strength gains in the gym. In the long run, and looking at the odds, those physical skills and gains will probably serve me better (still going to get back on a regular dry fire routine and range trips when the ammo situation normalizes). It's not perfect, but it's what I could do this year, and is most applicable to my situation.
Interesting comments on rifle skills.
I got the chance to shoot an AR for maybe the 3rd time ever yesterday. It was only at 25 yards, but I was able to put up a decent group offhand. Some day I'll get an AR, but I won't be too worried about getting uber skilled with it.

[JMS]

Now looking at reality - I carry concealed pretty much 100% of the time

Were you by any chance present for the light verbal whipping I gave to a guy at the Magpul pistol class I was at this past week, without me knowing it...? :p

Dude's got the same amount of time since he started paying genuine attention to pistolcraft as I ('bout 5 years), also isn't in the military any longer, also isn't any sort of PMC, also carries concealed on the daily, and I have yet to see him at a pistol class without him defaulting to his batbelt. Plus, it was not long after Fish included a peptalk about CCW folk maximizing training time by getting in good reps in the carry condition in which they exist most of the time.

Less of a verbal beat-up for his equipment wardrobing choices if he'd couched it terms of "I feel like it," or on the basis of getting to a certain warm-fuzzy with that before bumping up the difficulty level, but he was kidding himself by taking the idea that ANY practice is automatically good practice too far. I rarely ever mind "The Thing" anybody is doing or using, but I hate the rickety bridges some will build in the gaps in how they arrived at the decision.

I may have pointed out how his draws from an ALS being slower than mine from AIWB with no loss of accuracy, and may have told him that the sound he makes falling out of a boat was "DOOSH." ;) I wanna see the guy successfully advance his skillset, for the sheer sake of him being a friend with a family to care for and protect, but he can be damned obstinate.

The even-closer friend I attended the class with....? She's from Long Island; no CCW for her. She's not losing anything by using a batbelt, given that it's damned hard to cart one's nightstand to and from the firing line.

[GardoneVT]

^This^

I once went almost a year without any rifle shooting, only shooting snub revolvers and my duty 5906, picked up a M16a1 off of the rack, zeroed it and won a statewide shooting competition against some pretty decent shooters, several from units with sponsored shooting teams.

If I had to get into an AR speedloading contest against a 3 gun guy I woulda lost, but shooting an army "combat" match involving position shooting from 300 to the 25 against both stationary and moving targets, and some PT, I did just fine.

No way I could pull that off with with a handgun while neglecting my pistol skills.


Some of the reasons outlined by Kevin are why I continue to carry a service sized pistol almost 100% of the time, and two reloads.


Ironic.

When I was Active Duty Air Force, the firearm training emphasis for non-combat ops AFSC's was rifle shooting. I worked in a support squadron which diligently trained their personnel on rifles, yet ignored M9 quals with distressing regularity. More then a few NCO's went downrange with 0 pistol time behind them. It was the catalyst for my personal ownership of a 92FS, because I realized real fast that I was on my own if I wanted to be a decent shot. To this day I still remember the Sad Face emails of people in CENTCOM who had ND's with their issue pistols. Don't even ask me how good or bad of a shot they were- 50 practice rounds and 50 actual qualifying shots every 12 months rounds down to zero in my estimation, and it shows in the negligent discharge stats.

If the DoD boosted training across the boards-with a primary focus on long range pistol shooting-we'd be better off.

[ToddG]

50 practice rounds and 50 actual qualifying shots every 12 months rounds down to zero in my estimation...

^^^^^ sig line material

[David Armstrong]

Late getting to the game. Having a mini-stroke still messes you up pretty good, even if it is a mini.:p Yes, I train for reality. I prefer to train students for reality. The problem, of course, is that reality differs from place to place and what is considered appropriate training for that reality also differs. Reality for most regarding CCW is that the opponent will be close enough that precise aiming won't be needed. Reality for most is that high capacity won't be a factor. Reality for most is that reloading will not play a part. Reality for most is that a mouse gun with a few rounds will do the job. Reality for most is that there will be no need for a fast draw. For others reality is a honkin' big cannon to fend off the grizzly bear that just busted out of the woods and you only have time for one precise shot and you have less than 2 seconds to draw, aim and fire.

As mentioned, training for reality is probably far more about training to not shoot than to shoot. But really now, how many of us would want to go to a class that was composed 90% of physical and mental training and 10% shooting?

[ffhounddog]

It depends, do we get mental powers after the training?

[RBid]

Here's the wilder question: why do guys who've NEVER been in the military, tactical LE job, or overseas armed contractor role have battle rigs and take them to classes instead of EDC gear?.

I would extend the above to include anyone who HAS been mil, LE, or armed contractor, but is no longer any of those things.

Here comes an asterisk.

My reality is this: my everything firearm (EDC, HD, etc) is a Glock 19 (Gen 4). I devote two sessions each week to defensive pistol, using my actual carry set up and clothing. I'm also very aware that in virtually every real world SHTF event, concealed handguns have been the best firearm to have.

In any circumstance in which I found myself carrying a rifle, things would have to be so bad that a chest rig, drop leg, and more tactical gear wouldn't be out of place. If I don't need the rigs, I'm not holding a rifle. With that in mind, if I ever took a carbine course, I would absolutely gear up. For me, that kind of course would be training for circumstances so ugly and unlikely that such gear would have value.

The way I see it, pistol training is relevant today. Carbine training is preparing for truly extreme and probably remote possibilities. Different training for different realities. Train accordingly.

[ffhounddog]

I am going to the range tonight and I have a suit on. I might go and shoot with that because well I wear suits three times a week. Also yesterday I shot in flipflops and a hawainan shit and shorts. There were people in BDU and ACU pants all over the place why? Just go in a pair of jeans most of the world lives in jeans.

[JeffJ]

Jeans are hot and don't have many pockets. By the same token, I've started concealing under a sports coat more and more - but at the range, I'll practice with my old IDPA vest because 1. It's August in TX and I'm not wearing a jacket at the range 2. I'm hard enough on my clothes as is, I'll give the vest the abuse. I think there is a big difference in having range clothes that make a high volume shooting session easier while still similar to normal people clothes and playing dress up.

[ford.304]

The way I see it, pistol training is relevant today. Carbine training is preparing for truly extreme and probably remote possibilities. Different training for different realities. Train accordingly.

I think that's the crux of it, really.

Pistol training is for practical, personal civilian or civilian-like self defense.

Close range "Bathrobe tactical" carbine training is for the same.

Carbine training in general, though, is to me much more about the concept of the militia and general civic duty of every man a rifleman than it is about immediate practical applications.

I guess that means that you should practice pistol in your carry gear, but carbine can be in whatever you're willing to haul around your local backwoods.

[NickA]

I think there is a big difference in having range clothes that make a high volume shooting session easier while still similar to normal people clothes and playing dress up.

+1. The only reason I own a pair of 5.11 pants is because I really like that open style back pocket for loose ammo to top off mags during a class or match. The other pockets are also handy for all the stuff you end up carrying when your range bag isn't always right at hand.
In real life I'm in jeans or shorts most of the time, but I'm also not carrying all that tactical flotsam (extra mags, loose ammo, tape, etc).

[JHC]

+1. The only reason I own a pair of 5.11 pants is because I really like that open style back pocket for loose ammo to top off mags during a class or match. The other pockets are also handy for all the stuff you end up carrying when your range bag isn't always right at hand.
In real life I'm in jeans or shorts most of the time, but I'm also not carrying all that tactical flotsam (extra mags, loose ammo, tape, etc).

I don't much care what folks go to the range in. Just go shoot. I usually wear beat up jeans or 5.11s or camo hunting clothes at the range because they get messed up with clay, oil and soot. I don't have to dress "gray man" at the range now that I drive a "sage" Subaru Forester. :D

[Totem Polar]

Totally late to the game here, and *totally* the FNG at this forum to boot, so please let me know if I commit any P-F.com faux pas here.

I just wanted to add that the phenomenon of being the only guy in jeans, engineer boots, and a polo extends to the Inland NW as well; I took one mid-level course at my friendly local place that was billed as a combatives handgun course (eg. flinch/startle reaction, counter ambush, 360 degree mvt, close contact etc...) and I was the *only* guy drawing from concealment. Me and my 3953 in IWB leather regularly got trounced time-wise by the guys with OWB 1911s and full-size EAA witness hi caps with such accoutrements as over-size ambi safeties and flared mag well extensions; the guy with the EAA elite had a whole v-ring belt of offset competition mag pouches, along with an offset drop holster: he looked more like a tactical menorah on stilts than a human being.

But I digress. I am also *that* guy with no coyote tan and only the pockets that Levi or Lucky brand gave me. And a J-frame.

[Cecil Burch]

+1. The only reason I own a pair of 5.11 pants is because I really like that open style back pocket for loose ammo to top off mags during a class or match. The other pockets are also handy for all the stuff you end up carrying when your range bag isn't always right at hand.
In real life I'm in jeans or shorts most of the time, but I'm also not carrying all that tactical flotsam (extra mags, loose ammo, tape, etc).


Sometimes in classes I wear my LAPG el cheapo 5.11 knockoffs for the same reason. I stuff spare mags and loose ammo in the pockets to top off but always run the drills where I reload from the mag carrier on the belt (the same carrier I use for CCW). As you say, it is for convenience, not coolness. Besides, I think I lost all right to the coolness factor when I was only willing to pay $18 for my pants.

On a side note, I had a funny experience at a Pat MacNamara class where we were walking to the line for some pistol work and the guy I had been jaw-jacking with for the previous 10 minutes asked me as we walking "Don't you need your pistol?" and I lifted up my garish Hawaiian shirt to show my SIG in my AIWB. You could tell it was slightly out of his point of reference that I was doing the course from my daily concealment gear. BTW, he was a dentist who was running a drop leg :rolleyes:

[PT Doc]

I lifted up my garish Hawaiian shirt to show my SIG in my AIWB.

Uncle Paul is smiling from heaven.

[DocGKR]

I train with my pistol almost exclusively wearing whatever I wore to work that day, since that is how I would most likely end-up using one.

On the other hand, the most likely way I will use a long gun is with hard body armor on--even in a home defense situation. I have my old MAR-CIRAS with plates sitting next to my bed and always throw that on before investigating the proverbial "bump in the night". Likewise I typically have a plate carrier in the trunk along with a long gun. It is highly unlikely I will ever deploy a long gun without armor on, so that is generally how I train with it...

[NETim]

My guess is he has not fired enough rounds with them to see their pitfalls.



I love this forum. Thank you.

I think what I'll adopt is what has already been mentioned and that is, lash a spare mag to the handguard with a tactical rubber band.

Odds are good I'll never need the AR but by golly, I want one around. Who knows these days?

If you want to hear God laugh, just tell him your plans. :)

[LittleLebowski]

So I went shooting with Todd and a few others yesterday.

I have had a few moments of clarity in the past few weeks. Because I learned to shoot in the Canadian Army, and all my training for years was geared to full duty gear, when I retired and was contracting - my training regime stayed the same.

1) After being retired for 9 years and out of security contracting for 5 years -- why am I still training/shooting in a Battle Belt and Vest/Plates? For some courses with work its a necessity - but stuff on my own makes about as much sense as selling ice in Antarctica...

2) I totally suck in draws and reloads from concealment.

Now looking at reality - I carry concealed pretty much 100% of the time unless I need to go into DC or MD for business.
My biggest concern is out with the family and an active shooter scenario occurs - so I probably thus should be training for draws from concealment.

I think Todd is renaming my rendition of the FAST drill as the SLOW - as he could have gone for coffee before I was done, admittedly I could have sped up a lot if the accuracy and/or concealment aspect was ignored.

So am I the only has been out there than has not made the transition to realistic training requirements?

For reference.

[Slavex]

Great thread and great to see some of the insight others have shared.
I've taken some of the fantasy camp training, both pistol, carbine and rifle. Being a Canuck, I don't even have the option of legal carry, and if I end up using a gun, any gun, to defend myself or family, I'm going to be spending a lot of time in court. My primary legal reason for learning how to run my guns is for sport, games, lots of games. As such I found the fantasy camp classes to be a huge benefit to my training. Running around with armor, knee pads, battle belt etc, put more stress on me than I'd normally encounter in a match or practice. This allowed me to not only get excellent critiques from the instructors and fellow students, but also allowed for a lot of self diagnoses. And it was a ton of fun. I quickly realized however that continuing to build my pistol skills helped with my carbine stuff (not so much with long distance rifle stuff), and is much cheaper to do. I can step away from my AR for a long while and be back up to my normal speed much quicker than if I tried the same with a pistol. (this is assuming I'm shooting pistol while not shooting the AR, if I step away from my pistol I won't be shooting the AR so it's double down on suck).
Typically for me, I try to attend the classes, when allowed, with my game gear though, as that's how I'll be doing most of my shooting. I do spend some time on concealment gear on my own time, and occasionally take classes using it, but the focus for me is games.

[Chris Rhines]

I am going to the range tonight and I have a suit on. I might go and shoot with that because well I wear suits three times a week. Also yesterday I shot in flipflops and a hawainan shit and shorts. There were people in BDU and ACU pants all over the place why? Just go in a pair of jeans most of the world lives in jeans.

I hate jeans. Anytime jeans are appropriate, I'm usually wearing cargo pants instead. The cheap cotton ones from LAPG are awesome, all the more so for being really cheap.

[Tamara]

I hate jeans.

Well, jeans hate you, too. So there! :p

[Drang]

he looked more like a tactical menorah on stilts than a human being.
I think my brain just asploded at the brilliance of that phrase.

[ffhounddog]

I hate jeans. Anytime jeans are appropriate, I'm usually wearing cargo pants instead. The cheap cotton ones from LAPG are awesome, all the more so for being really cheap.

Chris it was a figure of speech. Seeing folks wearing the pants and the like to go to the range is well crazy in my mind. When I wear a pair of DCU pants I am doing yard work. The range is indoors I do not think rolling around dirty is a problem but today I was in a suit and I figure lets see how this works and wow the way the suit is cut is was more difficult to get a good press out without adding another step.

Who hates jeans?

[Tamara]

Who hates jeans?

People who hate America, that's who. And George Will.

[peterb]

Who hates jeans?

Anyone who gets wet. Jeans are the slowest-drying garment on the planet.

[ffhounddog]

Well they are their weight in gold on a Horse. Canvas is pretty good too.

[JodyH]

In the southwest we wear jeans to weddings AND funerals.

[ffhounddog]

In the southwest we wear jeans to weddings AND funerals.

They serve both purposes well.

[Al T.]

Well they are their weight in gold on a Horse.

Awesome! Got pics? I've never seen a hose wearing clothes, let alone blue jeans. ;)

I have one pair of jeans left, haven't worn them in years.

[JeffJ]

I'll add that there is a large difference (in my mind at least) in the silliness of "range clothes" between indoor and outdoor ranges. I wouldn't worry with cargos or anything for the indoor range, because there's that neat little shelf and you don't ever move your feet. My outdoor range, however is all tactical bays and while there are some tables to put stuff on you don't shoot from them. So I've got to deal with shot timers, multiple mags, pasters etc. That I don't EDC in my jeans or khakis.

[ToddG]

By the same token, I've started concealing under a sports coat more and more - but at the range, I'll practice with my old IDPA vest because 1. It's August in TX and I'm not wearing a jacket at the range 2. I'm hard enough on my clothes as is, I'll give the vest the abuse.

The typical IDPA competition vest is heavier, stiffer, less clingy, and better fitted for a great drawstroke than "normal" clothes... which is why people use it in competition. If you haven't already, I'd suggest picking your oldest, most beat up, most out of date sport coat and running a day at the range with it. Perhaps it won't be any different at all. But it may.

[JeffJ]

Based on dry firing with my real clothes and using the vest at the range, the vest is a little better at completely clearing the gun. I'm not sure how that affects my performance, when it's not 100* I might do some testing with a coat vs a vest.

Really most of my time at the range is with my USPSA gear (so to answer the OP - no, I spend a lot of time training for USPSA) I do, however make a point to start my range sessions off with my carry gear which is a j frame in a pocket all the time, and the real gun on my hip most of the time. FWIW, I've recently made the switch to 3:30 carry from AIWB in order to consolidate my draw stroke - pocket, appendix, 3:00 was just too much crap to practice.

[Dagga Boy]

Nobody let's me train for reality. My bump in the night reality is naked with a chrome Spartan helmet and my 870. I do keep a sort of "cop type battle belt under the bed". I figure the hairy naked animal in a chrome Spartan helmet is like a visual flash bang. I figure having some idiot trying to claw their eye's out is taking "getting inside their OODA" loop to a new level. THIS IS SPARTA!;)

[LSP972]

My bump in the night reality is naked with a chrome Spartan helmet and my 870.

Thanks for that visual.

I won't be able to sleep tonight... because the thought of that APPEALS to me...:D

.

[RBid]

Nobody let's me train for reality. My bump in the night reality is naked with a chrome Spartan helmet and my 870. I do keep a sort of "cop type battle belt under the bed". I figure the hairy naked animal in a chrome Spartan helmet is like a visual flash bang. I figure having some idiot trying to claw their eye's out is taking "getting inside their OODA" loop to a new level. THIS IS SPARTA!;)

Add a smoke machine, strobe light, and a little Spice Girls music, and you're probably guaranteed to end the engagement without having to shoot.


@ the original topic:

As long as someone is investing the time required to maintain a high skill level with their EDC, I don't see any issue with them adding additional training with other rigs or systems. I throw 100% of my firearms fund into concealed pistol work because of income and time restraints. If I had more disposable time and money, I'd be flying all over, and adding precision rifle and tactical courses, because "why not?"


In sort of related commentary, the guys I know who have serious tactical resumes are pretty private guys who also have jackass streaks, and like to give BS answers when people ask them what they do/did. On any given encounter with one of them at a course, a stranger would probably be told that they were an accountant or a "hot dog delivery guy". It's kind of a bragging rights thing among this circle to be quiet about things, and let other guys brag to them about "real world experience". At this point, I don't care if someone is a dentist, waiter, thespian, IT guy, or FBI HRT. If they're investing time in their skills, I'm happy to treat them with respect.

[David Armstrong]

Nobody let's me train for reality. My bump in the night reality is naked with a chrome Spartan helmet and my 870. I do keep a sort of "cop type battle belt under the bed". I figure the hairy naked animal in a chrome Spartan helmet is like a visual flash bang. I figure having some idiot trying to claw their eye's out is taking "getting inside their OODA" loop to a new level. THIS IS SPARTA!;)

So true. My only house gunfight resulted in my standing on the porch naked with a Winchester 94 in my hands. I still haven't figured out if the BGs were screaming in fear as they drove off or screaming in hysterical laughter.

[Failure2Stop]

So true. My only house gunfight resulted in my standing on the porch naked with a Winchester 94 in my hands. I still haven't figured out if the BGs were screaming in fear as they drove off or screaming in hysterical laughter.

Go violent in a timely manner.
Aggressive action can cover up a lot of tactical errors.
You can get away with some fairly audacious s**t if you're willing to be mean, fast, and naked.

Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.

[GJM]

Nobody let's me train for reality. My bump in the night reality is naked with a chrome Spartan helmet and my 870. I do keep a sort of "cop type battle belt under the bed". I figure the hairy naked animal in a chrome Spartan helmet is like a visual flash bang. I figure having some idiot trying to claw their eye's out is taking "getting inside their OODA" loop to a new level. THIS IS SPARTA!;)

I think this is the point when someone, say Tam, is supposed to say it doesn't exist without pictures?

If there was a night session in your 870 course, I might be worried.

[Erik]

If you think pictures of fat naked guys in helmets are hard to come by, you haven't been around the internet very long.

[Dagga Boy]

I think this is the point when someone, say Tam, is supposed to say it doesn't exist without pictures?

If there was a night session in your 870 course, I might be worried.

I wouldn't dare go outside naked in Alaska. Local papers would run the story about a bear being killed when he was seen carrying some poor hunter's shotgun.

[1986s4]

Well, jeans hate you, too. So there! :p

Does H&K makes jeans now?

[nycnoob]

Nobody let's me train for reality. My bump in the night reality is naked with a chrome Spartan helmet and my 870. I do keep a sort of "cop type battle belt under the bed". I figure the hairy naked animal in a chrome Spartan helmet is like a visual flash bang. I figure having some idiot trying to claw their eye's out is taking "getting inside their OODA" loop to a new level. THIS IS SPARTA!;)

Will you be offering a class?

Which equipment do you recommend for home defense as opposed to your background in SWAT team work? I found one for $50


http://www.wildorchidquilts.net/ir80527c-armor-helmet-spartan-generals-helmet-with-chrome-finish.html?utm_source=ir80527c-armor-helmet-spartan-generals-helmet-with-chrome-finish&utm_medium=shopping%2Bengine&utm_campaign=froogle&gclid=CMWrqoTlorkCFUii4AodiVYA8g


http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/wildorchidquilts_2270_2016711106

[NickA]

I wouldn't dare go outside naked in Alaska. Local papers would run the story about a bear being killed when he was seen carrying some poor hunter's shotgun.

Well it does say "yeti" right there in your name :D

[Dagga Boy]

Well it does say "yeti" right there in your name :D

No, "Yeti" is Steve Fisher. We are about the same size sitting down. Unfortunately, I have a 30" inseam. My aviation call sign was "Shrek"...of course I thought it was because my pilot was a "talking ass";) and not my build (which is pretty Shrekish).

nycnoob-Truth be known, my home primary is the exact same thing as what I used for most high risk indoor work as a cop-Remington 870 (and I still love the Benelli as well). I was assigned to SWAT as an instructor/armor, so most of the deployment stuff I did was in a support role (driving the armored vehicle, or deployed with a sniper team). I did work far more high risk stuff in the patrol environment both in a black and white and specialized crime suppression teams. For that stuff (that was often done with far fewer people and far less equipment and on the fly...kind of like normal folks in their home) I used a Remington 870 most of the time, or a pistol. I did use SMG's and Carbines (usually set up as a dedicated marksman gun), but I really prefer the shotgun for indoor work. When I was training our SWAT guys, I also liked them running the Benelli as a #2 to our scouts (point guys). Later we went to mostly Colt L/E 6920's, but I am still a big fan or the 12 gauge for use against 1 or 2 bad guys.

Now, for mass urban breakdowns-HUGE fan of the rifle in this role.

One of the best things I saw on a televised barricade in Los Angeles years ago was LAPD's SWAT Team making entry on a single barricaded gunman in a bottom floor apartment, who hadn't come out after being gassed. As they stacked and made entry the #1 had a 1911, followed by 5 fellow team members with Benelli Super 90's. I remember getting hit up on why they weren't using MP-5's or carbines. The answer is simple, no hostages for a single surgical shot, so why not use the gun most likely to drop a human with a single round in the confines of a building. Those guys know things. Over the years LAPD SWAT and Metro as well as SIS have done the Lord's work with shotguns, they just aren't real sexy.

[nycnoob]

Nyeti

Thanks!

I got a tricked out 870 (a bunch of stuff recommended by Awerbuck)
I also got the Cheap and Cheerful Chinese Hawk with a new recoil pad and the Raven shell carriers.



but I really prefer the shotgun for indoor work.


I do think training with the shotgun is more fun then other kinds of training, but I do not work in your field so I can say I have never used it for work.

[Dagga Boy]

The shotgun requires far more work and specialized training to really get the benefits, but with the training and work, the payoff's are huge. People wrongly assume they are an easy choice, and they are not. Carbines are FAR easier to run efficiently for most, but our media and nanny politicians have deemed them things you don't need, and scary.

[Chuck Haggard]

I also find that carbines are way easier to run and teach than shotguns, contrary to what many folks think, especially pump guns. I see more shooter induced malfs with those than any other weapon.

[Dagga Boy]

I also find that carbines are way easier to run and teach than shotguns, contrary to what many folks think, especially pump guns. I see more shooter induced malfs with those than any other weapon.

ABSOLUTELY! Of course law enforcement management and the Vice President don't get this. My brass wanted shotguns because (unlike those M16's ) you don't even have to aim to hit bad guys by magic:confused:. I guess that is why I think I am the only guy in the department to ever hit anyone with a shotgun......and I used the sight. Weird?

[Chuck Haggard]

ABSOLUTELY! Of course law enforcement management and the Vice President don't get this. My brass wanted shotguns because (unlike those M16's ) you don't even have to aim to hit bad guys by magic:confused:. I guess that is why I think I am the only guy in the department to ever hit anyone with a shotgun......and I used the sight. Weird?

Shotguns also don't shoot through schools, and can't kill anyone accidentally past 100 yards. Oh, wait.....

[JodyH]

To run a shotgun at a high level requires significant training and practice.

To shoot a couple of meth heads (http://www.khou.com/news/local/Baytown-homeowner-shoots-two-suspects-involved-in-early-morning-burglary-attempt-221463461.html) at the end of the hallway does not take much training.
To shoot two burglars in the backyard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_shooting_controversy) does not take much training.

If we're talking a running gun battle with the robbers from "Heat", including multiple reloads on the run and a slug select or two then yes I would agree with you on how complicated a shotgun is.

[Tamara]

I really prefer the shotgun for indoor work.

After rocking my 870 at the M3GI, I'm having second thoughts about the whole "Gauge vs. Carbine" thing. If it's just me and one or two dudes? I'm pretty confident in an 870. (Especially one with an un-kittened extractor.:o )

[GJM]

To run a shotgun at a high level requires significant training and practice.

To shoot a couple of meth heads (http://www.khou.com/news/local/Baytown-homeowner-shoots-two-suspects-involved-in-early-morning-burglary-attempt-221463461.html) at the end of the hallway does not take much training.
To shoot two burglars in the backyard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_shooting_controversy) does not take much training.

If we're talking a running gun battle with the robbers from "Heat", including multiple reloads on the run and a slug select or two then yes I would agree with you on how complicated a shotgun is.

Jody, this isn't aimed at you, but your post made me think of something I have been meaning to say about shotguns.

I have taken more shotgun classes than I can remember (Gunsite, TR, Randy Cain, Bill Jeans, Louie Awerbuck, Rogers School) and I really appreciate a shotgun generally and especially for defense around large, thin skinned animals. However, beyond basic manipulations such as running a pump, and proper loading of the shotgun, I think a lot of what is covered is an example of "cramming" two days of material into a five day course.

For those of us that don't shoot the SAME shotgun weekly, with the same LOAD weekly, at the same DISTANCES, does anyone really think in a dynamic fight, they are going to have a clue of exactly what distance they are shooting at and what their pattern is? I consider it a strong clue that Louie Awerbuck loads his personal shotgun with slugs. I also question, absent a special circumstance, a lot of loading stuff. Anyone think they would rather get one more shotshell reloaded into the shotgun over drawing their handgun with about 15 or 17 cartridges? Unless traveling somewhere like western Canada, I have always planned drawing my handgun is my shotgun reload.

I also think there is a big difference in shooting a pump versus a semi-auto shotgun. With the pump, most stoppages seem to be shooter technique induced, and with the semi-auto most stoppages seem to be shotgun reliability (or lack thereof) induced. Rather than spend multiple days messing with patterning barrels, I would have the pump guys spend all that time just running the pump. Semi-auto guys could spend half an hour cleaning their shotguns to try to prevent a stoppage, and then just go home a few days early, unless they wanted the fun of shooting steel.

I carry a shotgun all summer for protection against brown bears -- either a 14 inch 870 or a Beretta Storm. It is loaded with Brenneke slugs. I occasionally do a "select" drill, but it is reversed, and to take a loose round or two of bird shot and harvest a bird when I am out in bear country, after which I am all slugs again.

The shotgun is an awesome tool, that can remove chunks of a threat. Many courses make it much more complicated than it needs to be, or will likely ever be used in my view of realistic situations.

[Skullybones]

Slightly impractical for home defense, but the current crop of 3-gun "quick strips" make reloading the shotgun quite a bit faster. In the end I agree with a pistol transition for most situations. That given the shotgun doesn't dispatch the threat in some form.

[JodyH]

I've run a pump since I was 10 years old under time pressure at small moving targets at varying distance (bird hunting). I'm comfortable running a pump against a human or animal inside my house or yard.
Yes, the best shotgun reload is a "NY reload" (transition to a pistol).

[Chuck Haggard]

For those of us that don't shoot the SAME shotgun weekly, with the same LOAD weekly, at the same DISTANCES, does anyone really think in a dynamic fight, they are going to have a clue of exactly what distance they are shooting at and what their pattern is?


At the distances I would be working with I really don't worry about it. Aim at the biggest part of what I want to hit and squeeze. Exactly what pattern I would get isn't a big deal since I would be well within the range where the pattern would be throwing flyers.

I run a side saddle on my gun with four slugs and two OO buck, if I ended up outside then I would select slug as needed. Were I in your AO then the choice of slugs would be what I would also go with.



While still just theory at this point because I haven't been in a gunfight with a shotgun, I note in a bunch of my FoF "fights" that the people I am up against often leave parts of their body hanging out from cover, feet, hands, elbows, etc. Should be easier to hit such a small fleeting target with a pattern than a bullet/slug at close range

[Tamara]

Yes, the best shotgun reload is a "NY reload" (transition to a pistol).

I came to that realization on the fly playing games a couple weekends ago. Even factoring in the time it took to aim in on those little steels, it was quicker than trying to get any meaningful number of rounds back into the gauge's tube.

[KevinB]

Bah, shotguns are for breaching ;)

I don't train with a shotty and using one is problematic for me as I usually forget to rack it unless its multiple targets - as my muscle memory says leave it with the empty hull and drop it on its sling/rope.

My IF I have time HD gun is an AR - however my pistol is always right near me. Because I have kids in the house the AR's are not - but the blaster stays in the holster on my until its time for bed - and then it sits on the nightstand to get up and walk to the shower with me and get strapped up when getting dressed.

I have more than one AR, so worst case one gets impounded for evidence, I have others available.
I'd need to be in a lot of HD shootings to run out of guns, and I think I would have moved before then.

[GJM]

At the distances I would be working with I really don't worry about it. Aim at the biggest part of what I want to hit and squeeze. Exactly what pattern I would get isn't a big deal since I would be well within the range where the pattern would be throwing flyers.

I run a side saddle on my gun with four slugs and two OO buck, if I ended up outside then I would select slug as needed. Were I in your AO then the choice of slugs would be what I would also go with.



While still just theory at this point because I haven't been in a gunfight with a shotgun, I note in a bunch of my FoF "fights" that the people I am up against often leave parts of their body hanging out from cover, feet, hands, elbows, etc. Should be easier to hit such a small fleeting target with a pattern than a bullet/slug at close range

Sounds right. Louie Awerbuck once told our class, as someone pointed out how tight their Vang barrel shot -- isn't the point of having a shotgun to have some spread, or we would just shoot slugs or use a higher capacity rifle.

Lower 48, inside, I load with buck. But unlike some school drills, where you supposedly use your knowledge of your shotgun/load/pattern to, for example, shoot the bad guy and miss the hostage, using buckshot -- my view is shoot buckshot or birdshot at a close and moving target without no shoots, without getting all hung up about worrying about the exact pattern, and use a slug for everything else.

Now in a utility role, the 870 is great, and in the field I have a soft side saddle that I can easily remove, that typically holds one rubber bullet, two birdshot, with the balance extra Brenneke slugs. This gives me the ability to shoot a bear in the butt with the rubber slug to discourage him, harvest some game birds for dinner, and use slugs to stop an attack.

While the plural of anecdote isn't data, the time I used buck on a live target, I came away distinctly unimpressed. At the time I lived back east, was in the midst of my 3 Gun competition shooting days, and had a problem with raccoons getting into the garbage at our home in a rural area, making a mess and getting our bird dog agitated. I had my Benelli ready, loaded with buck, and equipped with a Surefire fore end. Some nights later, about 3am, dog starts going crazy, and we hear something tearing throw the garbage cans (out for the early am pick-up). I burst thru the door, and at about 15 yards open up on this racoon running off. I lit him withe light, tracked him great, emptied 7 rounds of buck on him, with great hits -- and the raccoon just crawled off into the bushes. I found him dead the next morning, peppered with buck, but it didn't leave a great impression as to the immediate stopping power of buck. Now by contrast, stuff I have shot with a Brenneke has fallen right over.

[Dagga Boy]

Where the Vang Comp is great is making gigantic holes in soft things at indoor ranges. Like I said, I like the shotgun for indoor work where all that shot can stay together. I also like them for counter vehicle work, which is a straight up slug affair. This is one of the benefits. The shotgun is what I call the "B+" gun. It is pretty good for a ton of things. Other guns are great at one particular thing and lack elsewhere. My .375 H&H Brown Precision rifle belonged to a professional Bear guide in Alaska. Probably awesome on Bears, but you aren't shooting little birds in flight. Essentially the gauge has two things really going for it-versatility and "politically acceptable". Neither are logical, or optimal, but are a factor. My favorite home defense gun is actually my AUG,.......but I don't want to go down that path again;).

[rob_s]

So now we're going to be retro-cool with shotguns? I guess if we're taking classes going for some kind of "I'm more minimalister than you" kind of approach we may as well start advocating shotguns again. Once you've started down the intentionally anachronistic road, why not do it full speed? What is old is new again, provided someone is looking to stand out from the crowd. Especially if they don't even know they are going down a road previously traveled and found lacking.

In Pat McNamara's class he made a comment "training FOR a fight does not necessarily mean training AS you fight". The idea that if someone wears a chest rig in a class that requires them to come to the line with 5 magazines they are somehow a tactical ted wannabe is just ridiculous. As is trying to jam those five mags in all sorts of crevices just to brag about minimalism and how they are training for reality.

I've worn plates in classes because I bought them to take a shoot-house class and new I wanted to work out the issues before the house, not in the house. I've worn "battle belts" in classes because I wanted to give them a try and see what all the fuss was about. I've taken classes with a single rifle mag in a pouch. I've been in classes where the instructor has asked everyone to shoot their pistol from concealment, and I've been in classes where the instructor has asked everyone NOT to use a concealment rig. I have also been in classes where guys were trying to use ALICE pouches on their walmart pants belt, wearing boat shoes, to the inevitable end. You wear the gear that seems appropriate at the time.

Being all assed-up that everyone thinks you're a minimalist isn't really any different than being assed-up that everyone thinks you're a "gunfighter".

To Kevin's original question, I've had several friends that were prior-service that have taken a long time to realize that they no longer had a reason to train in all that gear because their mission has changed. I think it's Jeff Gonzalez's book that talked about this transition and that his current role was exactly as Kevin described, protecting his family.

[Al T.]

Down here, we hunt a lot of deer with a shotgun and buckshot. Even in a choked barrel, (IMHO & IME) buckshot has significantly less effective range than folks think. While I am aware of fluke shots at long(er) ranges, what I've seen is that the best results are when the whole payload gets on target.

[JodyH]

Anecdote: coyote at 20 yards or so hit broadside with Federal Flitecontrol 8-pellet #00 = DRT with not even a quiver, just some tufts of hair gently floating back to Earth.

As far as shotguns being retro-cool or anachronistic, sorry I just don't see it that way.
For home defense they are a very viable and effective weapon with a long established track record.

[Tamara]

The idea that if someone wears a chest rig in a class that requires them to come to the line with 5 magazines...

Wow, it's almost like this was said in, like, the eighth post in the thread.

[Dagga Boy]

So now we're going to be retro-cool with shotguns? I guess if we're taking classes going for some kind of "I'm more minimalister than you" kind of approach we may as well start advocating shotguns again.

I don't know if you noticed, but a whole crap load of people live in places where running the ideal gun is illegal, or such a massive hassle that it is not worth it. Shotguns can be run very efficiently, and they are making a little inroad again more due to legislation than what is best. This is a "training for reality" thread. Restrictive gun laws and litigious anti-gun jurisdictions are part of many people's "reality". Winning a fight in your home only to be charged with a felony because you did it with an illegal weapon is not smart. I don't agree with a vast majority of gun laws, but they are a factor if you don't like prison and civil lawsuits. I think TPD223 and I both indicated that shotguns are much harder to run than a AR or other semi auto rifle.

[GJM]

As far as shotguns being retro-cool or anachronistic, sorry I just don't see it that way.
For home defense they are a very viable and effective weapon with a long established track record.

I am with Jody on this. Shotguns, with the right loads, remove chunks. Besides home defense, they repel bear attacks as well as anything made.

[Dagga Boy]

I'll just add that if you live in the cities of New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, or Washington D.C. (which combined have populations more than several entire states) and you are using an AR-15 as your primary HD firearm, have fun with that decision. I guess it would be Rob S's choice so as not to be portrayed as some kind of "Retro-Retard", but we'll see who is the smart one if you ever have to use it. Equally, if you decide to head to the back country of Alaska with a 5.56 AR instead of one of those Retro Stupid shotguns.....have fun with that.

I have been around enough of the people who handle the "justice" system in states we refer to as "behind enemy" lines that I don't trust them to ever do the "right" thing and will not hand them a gift wrapped issue to do the "politically correct" thing.

My point is if you live in a place where an AR is really not a good legal means of defending yourself, training for reality should probably include the shotgun. Doing that training with people who have had to use a shotgun in that role because they also "had to" may also fit as well. I was in the dog house for most of my career pushing that AR's were a better choice for a general issue long gun while the shotgun was a better "specialty" weapon. This was shot down as stupid because AR's were evil things that had no place in any role outside the military. That was from the same people who will be making a prosecution decision for a citizen in the places they police.......think about that when you are making "your reality" decisions if you live in one of those places.

[Tamara]

I'll just add that if you live in the cities of New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, or Washington D.C. (which combined have populations more than several entire states) and you are using an AR-15 as your primary HD firearm, have fun with that decision.

The Hyde Park Republicans Association in Cook County IL, just a few condos down from The One's old digs, runs his and hers Marlin .357 leverguns, to the best of my knowledge. :D

(I am given to understand that these raise eyebrows in carbine classes.)

[JodyH]

My HSLD carbine class gear.
I reloaded from my rear pocket.
My one concession to convenience was a thigh rig to hold 4 spare mags in order to "top off" my back pocket between strings.
And HSLD Nike batting gloves because on day 3 my hands were getting pretty cut up.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/ready.jpg

[David Armstrong]

Anecdote: coyote at 20 yards or so hit broadside with Federal Flitecontrol 8-pellet #00 = DRT with not even a quiver, just some tufts of hair gently floating back to Earth.

As far as shotguns being retro-cool or anachronistic, sorry I just don't see it that way.
For home defense they are a very viable and effective weapon with a long established track record.
Agreed, and for almost the same reasons. From the end of my garage to the first fenceline is 25 yards. Within that distance I've yet to hit a coyote, racoon, skunk, possum, feral cat or wild dog that hasn't been anchored right there with a load of reduced recoil/tactical 00 Buck. IMO nothing combines effective hit potential with speed in that zone like the shotgun.

[JodyH]

A red dot equipped 30-30 or .357mag lever action is nothing to sneeze at for home defense. I wouldn't lose any sleep with one hanging over my closet door.

[JAD]

I am with Jody on this. Shotguns, with the right loads, remove chunks. Besides home defense, they repel bear attacks as well as anything made.
-- I don't think I'm ever going to shoot somebody and think, "gosh, I wish I hadn't hit him that hard."

[BoppaBear]

My HSLD carbine class gear.
I reloaded from my rear pocket.
My one concession to convenience was a thigh rig to hold 4 spare mags in order to "top off" my back pocket between strings.
And HSLD Nike batting gloves because on day 3 my hands were getting pretty cut up.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/ready.jpg

This is almost exactly the way I run a rifle course. EDC belt/holster/pistol, mag in back pocket, and I too have a super high speed HSGI leg rig for "topping off" between iterations. I will sometimes run a single AR mag holder for convenience depending on the course.

A buddy and I have scheduled a course with an instructor next month. Instead of going the open-enrollment route, we decided some 1 on 2 time was a better bet. We'll do some rifle work, with just our rifles, as it would likely be in any situation for us civies, other than civil unrest.

Then we'll switch to our concealed pistols, and do some drawing, firing, moving, etc., as we would have to do in a SD situation. All while being told when we've screwed up, or should consider tweaking things.

Just how I prefer it.

[ToddG]

So now we're going to be retro-cool with shotguns?

No one has suggested you do anything. There's no reason to misread other people's fondness or admiration for shotguns as an attack on your preferences. Shotguns have some distinct advantages over ARs just as ARs have distinct advantages over shotguns. Understanding which is more applicable to your needs is the only trick.


As is trying to jam those five mags in all sorts of crevices just to brag about minimalism and how they are training for reality.

Again, you don't need to turn this around and try to criticize people who are doing something you're not. Plenty of folks here have explained why they opted to equip themselves sans chest right and battle belt for a class. Having done it a few times myself under instructors including Vickers and Awerbuck, I feel confident that I wasn't the holdup in the class just because my spare mag was in a pocket on my pants rather than a pocket on some non-functional suspenders.

If I was attending a class that was meant for anything other than training team tactics and the instructor forbid me from using the gear I'd really have (and thus need) in an actual fight, I'd walk out.


I've worn plates in classes because I bought them to take a shoot-house class and new I wanted to work out the issues before the house, not in the house.

So you wanted to be familiar with the actual gear you were going to need? I'd say you qualify for the "for reality" team there. You wanted to "work out the issues" of having plates on; I wanted to work out the issues of clearing a structure with a spare mag in my back pocket. Same same.


I've worn "battle belts" in classes because I wanted to give them a try and see what all the fuss was about.

I doubt anyone has heartburn with that, either. Especially given your magazine career it makes sense that you'd be trying all sort of stuff, including stuff you're not even really personally interested in (not saying that's the case here).


Being all kittened-up that everyone thinks you're a minimalist isn't really any different than being kittened-up that everyone thinks you're a "gunfighter".

I haven't seen anyone brag that they're minimalist. I've seen folks here explaining why they run their actual day to day equipment in classes. If you cannot see the difference between the two, that's on you.

[ffhounddog]

This conversation is good and has brought many points into one descussion verse many different one. I agree with many of what people are saying and I like what Nyeti and tpd223 has brought to the discussion about more "reality" of what might happen after the altercation.

I know I will not have a battle belt for everything I have two but in reality they are stored. I have a shoulder holster next to the bed with two mags that I will toss on that fits my everyday carry gun for the night time. I want to be able to have some mags on me just in case they are needed. Also having the shoulder holster lets me toss it on under or over the bathrobe if I need to respond to something around the house. Next to the bed is a Surefire C2 LED and a P30/P2000sk.

[Chuck Haggard]

That the only things I have seen do more damage than a shotgun round to a human body, with a single hit, are cars and trains is part of my decision making process.

[GardoneVT]

When considering "training for reality", we have to consider that all of us have different realities to consider. A man defending a 3 bedroom home in Trenton New Jersey isn't going to share the same "mission profile", for lack of a better phrase, then myself being a college student guarding a 1 bedroom apartment in Western South Dakota. If he shows up to a class wearing a lever-gun and bandolier and I show up with an IWI Tavor, does that make him ill-prepared ? No.

That dynamic also dosen't make me a mall ninja either. We all have different needs, different environments, and different considerations. If I drop a home invader with a .223 bullpup Isreali -designed rifle, I'll probably NOT be charged with a crime on account of political reasons. The New Jersey homeowner would probably be turned over to Homeland Security if he used the same gun in such a circumstance.

Different realities, different training methods. We should open our minds to those concepts, instead of labeling people with a different perspective.

[Tamara]

If he shows up to a class wearing a lever-gun and bandolier and I show up with an IWI Tavor, does that make him ill-prepared ? No.

How did it run? The Tavor, I mean.

(Shootin' Buddy went to a carbine class down at Tiger McKee's place with his friend from Chicago and decided to run a lever gun himself as a show of support. Between the two of them, I think they had five out of four Marlins go down in three days... Grandpa's hunting rifle just won't take a beatin' like most people think it will. ;) )

[Chuck Haggard]

How did it run? The Tavor, I mean.

(Shootin' Buddy went to a carbine class down at Tiger McKee's place with his friend from Chicago and decided to run a lever gun himself as a show of support. Between the two of them, I think they had five out of four Marlins go down in three days... Grandpa's hunting rifle just won't take a beatin' like most people think it will. ;) )

That is one reason why I don't have any lever guns anymore.

Mossberg 500/590s on the other hand are pretty tough in my experience, and easy to fix as needed.

[Tamara]

Mossberg 500/590s on the other hand are pretty tough in my experience, and easy to fix as needed.

Heck, you can fix an 870 with a pair of nail clippers. ;)

[Dagga Boy]

Issues with lever guns, bolts, pumps, etc. This is one reason that I like "catered classes". It is a wonderful thought of taking a lever action to a High Speed Hyper Dynamic Adaptive ExtraExtremeClosetoFar LOWNO Light Carbine class, but the fact is that I don't think you are doing anyone a particular favor. Those guns were never meant to be shot like that and in reality, that is not how they will be run. It is no different than a guy who takes a 5.56mm carbine to Big Game Safari Prep. Trust me, I have no issues of running a gun that you have to run due to your circumstance. In cases like this, I think you are putting your training time and dollars to better use with something like one of Randy Cain's classes dedicated to running these guns in a defensive scenario.

[Tamara]

Issues with lever guns, bolts, pumps, etc. This is one reason that I like "catered classes". It is a wonderful thought of taking a lever action to a High Speed Hyper Dynamic Adaptive ExtraExtremeClosetoFar LOWNO Light Carbine class...

I think the instance to which I am referring was a Clint Smith Urban Rifle class, not some kind of Flat Dark Earth Hosefest, but your point is absolutely true.

That aside, I really do think that the average consumer vastly overestimates the ruggedness of a sporting arm vis a vis firearms designed to survive rough handling and high round counts with sketchy maintenance in a service-type environment. (My personal rough rule of thumb is that if a firearm can't be disassembled without tools, then it's an indication that it was meant to be cleaned and serviced someplace where there was a light and a workbench and a stool on which to sit. ;) )

[GJM]

I am curious to what the Marlin failures were? Before I knew better, I broke a firing pin on a 336 dry firing, and this seems to be a problem for them. However, I did the first three days of UR at TR with a Marlin .44 lever, and my wife and I have done multiple Gunsite Backcountry courses with a Marlin 45-70 Guide Gun, without any issue. These were high round count courses. We have a half dozen Guide Guns that my wife and I have been using for 15+ years.

I get it that many lever guns aren't military grade, but find the Marlin 45-70 Guide Guns to be very durable. Same with Pre 64 model 70 bolt guns.

[Tamara]

I am curious to what the Marlin failures were?

It's been several years and I'll ask him again tomorrow when we go to the range, but I think of the actual mechanical failures only two actually deadlined the guns and one was more-or-less cosmetic: Something on the barrel band failed or fell out, causing the forend to slide around on the mag tube like a pump shotgun.

[Dagga Boy]

I think the instance to which I am referring was a Clint Smith Urban Rifle class, not some kind of Flat Dark Earth Hosefest, but your point is absolutely true.

That aside, I really do think that the average consumer vastly overestimates the ruggedness of a sporting arm vis a vis firearms designed to survive rough handling and high round counts with sketchy maintenance in a service-type environment. (My personal rough rule of thumb is that if a firearm can't be disassembled without tools, then it's an indication that it was meant to be cleaned and serviced someplace where there was a light and a workbench and a stool on which to sit. ;) )


Right on the money. I am a big fan of "the ability" to use "sporting guns" in a defensive role, and find it to be critical for those who live in highly restrictive, gun averse, and heavily regulated areas of the country. On the other hand, they are, in fact, sporting guns and are not designed for heavy field use with little maintenance. We also find that they don't temporarily "go down" in class where a little wonder lube in the right place or a quick take down and clear out and you are back on the line. We have found when these things "go down" in class (or worse,in the field when being deployed) they need to go to a gunsmith or the factory.

[BLR]

That the only things I have seen do more damage than a shotgun round to a human body, with a single hit, are cars and trains is part of my decision making process.

No one ever protested the use of a carbine in warfare...

#Winchester 1897

[Chuck Haggard]

Heck, you can fix an 870 with a pair of nail clippers. ;)

I think I read that somewhere!



Ref some "sporting guns", stuff like a pre 64 model 70 that is basically a copy of a Mauser falls into the same relm as the other service grade or .mil spec weapons.

A few years ago I started weeding guns that either can't take a beating or I can't work on myself. For me that included AKs and a bunch of sporting grade stuff. (You can get parts and cheap ammo for AKs and SKSs now, but one EO and import is done....)


Ref the original thread topic, sort of, I think shotguns fit rather well in many people's reality. Outside of the noted legal issues and being with giant varmints, I know folks who live out in the sticks that have the shotgun applied to a dual role of hunting and varmint blasting as well as home defense. Although the FBI might not approve of the wound ballistics, I know several people who have a gauge loaded with the first couple of rounds out of the tube being large shot turkey or duck/goose loads followed by #4 or OO buck.
Sure a short magnum turkey load isn't optimum for bad guys, but at close range they will do a lot of damage, and they pattern tight on things like skunks and running coyotes.

Add a CCH pistol or revolver of some sort and most people are fairly well set.

[Dagga Boy]

No one ever protested the use of a carbine in warfare...

#Winchester 1897

I was in an exchange program with German cops for many years. We had a bunch at the range and one of the range guys asked if they wanted to "shoot an MP-5" like it was the greatest thing ever. I told the guy that these cops had Mp-5's in every car, so just get out some shotguns for them to shoot. The German guys eyes lit up and one of them said "we can't carry shotguns because in Germany they are too inhumane to shoot people with." I have a feeling that may be some left over Winchester 1897 action with their great grandpa's in some trenches with Americans.

[BLR]

You would be hard pressed to come up with something more capable and versatile than a good 870 in the hands of someone used to scatter guns.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 4

[JodyH]

You would be hard pressed to come up with something more capable and versatile than a good 870 in the hands of someone used to scatter guns.
Probably the ultimate SHTF firearm.
Not only will it kill anything in North America, you can harvest anything in North America with one.

[LSP972]

The German guys eyes lit up and one of them said "we can't carry shotguns because in Germany they are too inhumane to shoot people with." I have a feeling that may be some left over Winchester 1897 action with their great grandpa's in some trenches with Americans.

That's the general consensus in Europe, period. And I'll wager large it is indeed a direct result of our use of the things in WW1. IIRC, the Germans basically said anyone of our guys they caught with a shotgun would treated like a spy, or whatever, and immediately executed. This from a bunch of bastards who employed mustard gas... of course, our Secretary of War (Henry Stimson?) responded that we would do the same to "normal" German prisoners if THEY did it to ours.

I too was involved with working cops from other countries, and made these observations:

The Germans were very interested in our weaponry and policies for use of same. I even detected a bit of envy in a few of them when they learned of the relative latitude my particular agency's troops had in choosing a duty sidearm.

The Brits, for the most part, were a bit on the haughty side and stopped just short of openly referring to us as trigger-happy cowboys. Nothing like some socialistic brain-washing to condition the thought processes, eh? I wonder if they still feel the same way, now that their government's policies are bringing some serious violence home to roost, as it were...

The two Russians were just plain 10-8. They were supremely impressed with our choice of a .45 ACP issue sidearm, and indicated dissatisfaction with their issue "mouse gun cartridge" (their words). When I made them copies of some of Marty Fackler's (and other IWBA luminaries') work, you would have thought I gave them the keys to the kingdom. Good dudes; solid, straightforward, not a drop of bullshit in them.

In short, we got along famously with the Germans and the Russians. The Brits could have stayed at home, for all I cared. FWIW, I ran across this same snotty, superior attitude amongst the Brit soldiers I interacted with during my army days... particularly the officers. My wife is from Scotland; I've made two trips there with her to visit. I got some of the same bemused tolerance attitude both times.

Oh, well...

.

[Dagga Boy]

The German cops were shocked at how much we shot, how often we were deploying guns in the field, and thought that our .45 Colt Revolvers and Remington 870's were the true hammers of Thor :cool:...........oh, I'm sorry, I meant "retro cool minimalist crap".......my bad;).

[BLR]

The only thing better than a Scattergun Technologies 870 is a really nice M12 Trench Gun.

I just wish the 870 trigger guard wasn't so cheezy.

[Drang]

(Shootin' Buddy went to a carbine class down at Tiger McKee's place with his friend from Chicago and decided to run a lever gun himself as a show of support. Between the two of them, I think they had five out of four Marlins go down in three days... Grandpa's hunting rifle just won't take a beatin' like most people think it will. ;) )
During one of my visits to the Custer Battlefield, a discussion ensued with the park historian. Someone asked why the troops were armed with Trapdoor Springfields instead of lever action repeaters. Aside from the natural conservatism of the military, and although the Trapdoors had a problem with brass breaking off after prolonged firing, the lever actions were far less reliable in a prolonged battle.


That's the general consensus in Europe, period. And I'll wager large it is indeed a direct result of our use of the things in WW1. IIRC, the Germans basically said anyone of our guys they caught with a shotgun would treated like a spy, or whatever, and immediately executed. This from a bunch of bastards who employed mustard gas...
I'm sure my German cousins would say that my British cousins used it first.

FWIW, I ran across this same snotty, superior attitude amongst the Brit soldiers I interacted with during my army days... particularly the officers..
I got along well with the Brit NCOs I met during an ABCA Exercise at Ft Ord, and the ossifers seemed OK. The NCOs couldn't get over the fact that we didn't allow coffee in the exercise building. We were still terrified of breaking one of those new-fangled computer things. This was in '87, IIRC.

[GJM]

The only thing better than a Scattergun Technologies 870 is a really nice M12 Trench Gun.

I just wish the 870 trigger guard wasn't so cheezy.

Scattergun Technologies, whoa Bill -- don't tell me mister good taste would carry one of those. Man, we got to school you on shotguns. Older Wingmaster or Police Magnum, slicked action, trigger job, NP3 or equivalent finish, good aperture sights (properly attached with more adjustment and protected with ears), Vang +1 extension.

[BLR]

Scattergun Technologies, whoa Bill -- don't tell me mister good taste would carry one of those. Man, we got to school you on shotguns. Older Wingmaster or Police Magnum, slicked action, trigger job, NP3 or equivalent finish, good aperture sights (properly attached with more adjustment and protected with ears), Vang +1 extension.

That's DOCTOR good taste, sir.

I love my BP Special!

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 4

[Tamara]

I just wish the 870 trigger guard wasn't so cheezy.

All this esthetics stuff, jeeze!

You could mill a pretty one and hang it on your wall. :p

[BLR]

Well, if a fellow or gal wanted to have just the slickest retro fashion statement, a 31 with custom one off billet speed components would turn any scatter gun hipsters head.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 4

[Dropkick]

would turn any scatter gun hipsters head.

Yeah, but will it get ya laid? :o

[Tamara]

But will it match your shoes? :p

[BLR]

Yeah, but will it get ya laid? :o

I truly believe so.

I do love my 31s, though they are all hunting guns.

[LSP972]

I'm sure my German cousins would say that my British cousins used it first.



Guess it all depends on who you believe...

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWmustard.htm

My experience with the brit army was in the 70s during REFORGER. We got along well enough with them, but you could tell they were merely tolerating us... allies, and all of that, don't you know.:rolleyes:

Except when it came time to horse-trade for C-rats. Then, they were the model of servility and cooperation. Little wonder... their field rations were truly dreadful.

.

[LSP972]

Older Wingmaster or Police Magnum, slicked action, trigger job, NP3 or equivalent finish, good aperture sights (properly attached with more adjustment and protected with ears), Vang +1 extension.

I was weaned on, and spent a long career with, the 870. But I've become partial to self-loaders. I made a great close-in dudeshooter out of a Beretta 390, but its limited capacity (3+1, and no way to increase it because of the gas piston) is a slight concern.

For that, and other (mainly nostalgic) reasons, I have been seriously considering scoring a beater Browning A5 (Belgian, of course), and making an HD shotgun out of it. I recall seeing a one round extension for the A5 (Choate, perhaps?), which would give six rounds on tap without the objectionable extra weight and length of a standard extension.

Of course (and at peril of further annoying our resident HSLD Sheepdog Operators), I could go full retro and get a coach gun...:cool:

.

[PT Doc]

I've hunted with semi autos and shot sporting clays with an over/under and a pump. Looking forward to Tom's class in October to get a little smoother on the 870. My old man swore by an Ithaca 37 from his time in Vietnam.

Sent from my GT-P5113 using Tapatalk 2

[BLR]

Man, those lightweight 37s are punishing guns.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 4

[Totem Polar]

^^^That's sort of how I felt about 1300 defenders in the days before reduced recoil loads came online.

[Odin Bravo One]

Of course (and at peril of further annoying our resident HSLD Sheepdog Operators), I could go full retro and get a coach gun...:cool:

.

Why not?

I went full retard and converted a Winchester SuperX2 to an HD gun. 7+1, tactical black, even added a piece of velcro for good measure. Won't even run on birdshot anymore because I chopped 8" off the barrel. Since I have my 12" 870 (like you, only 3+1), the Super X2, a Super X3, the Benelli M2, Rem 11-87, Win 1300, I bought an old beat up side by side coach gun. I'd probably consider myself adequately armed for HD with the coach gun if I had to (with a pistol on standby). Though, I have to admit I would feel better to have the Super X2.......

[LSP972]

Won't even run on birdshot anymore because I chopped 8" off the barrel. .....

That's interesting. It un-balanced the gas system, or what?

.

[Odin Bravo One]

That's interesting. It un-balanced the gas system, or what?

.

Indeed Sir. I had my local hack (shotgun guru.....legit guru) opened the ports a bit, and depending on the brand, it will run on "some" birdshot. But for 100% reliability, it is slugs or 00.

[ffhounddog]

A coach gun would be a good deterent for one or two people, Heck even 5 people (I do not want to be shot)

It is also just a real fun gun to have, I have seen cowboy action shooters run those well.

[JodyH]

I'll see your coach gun and raise you one Serbu Super-Shorty.
It's only retro if you consider Miami Vice old skool.
:cool:
Of course it's not going to look very good when held up in front of a soccer-mom jury...

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/IMG_20121210_155001.jpg

[Odin Bravo One]

No, but if I had to get into a gunfight in an outhouse, the Serbu or a G18 would be nice to have.........

[Sparks2112]

No, but if I had to get into a gunfight in an outhouse, the Serbu or a G18 would be nice to have.........

I think a knife would be better for a close range engagement like that? 0:-)

[Dagga Boy]

I have it on good authority, from a Cold War era guy who would know, that a full auto mag dump with a .380 MAC shoved in a phone booth is quite a sight. I guess everybody has a little different reality:cool:.

[Dropkick]

I have it on good authority, from a Cold War era guy who would know, that a full auto mag dump with a .380 MAC shoved in a phone booth is quite a sight. I guess everybody has a little different reality:cool:.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muBJimrD7_M

[Dagga Boy]

Pro's use a suppressor........;).

[Tamara]

...a full auto mag dump with a .380 MAC...

True Story:

Very first time I ever shot a buzzgun, back in '86? '87? Anyway, a friend and I have rolled our pennies and reckon we can rent two full-autos and the ammo to feed them. Based on our fancies at the time, we get an MP5K and a .380 MAC.

And a 50rd box of ammo for each. The guy at the counter chuckles, and I wonder why...

We get to the firing line and get a quick walk through on the guns, and then I divide the .380 between myself and my friend. I put a stick with twenty-something rounds in the MAC and BRR!-BRR!-Br_?

"I think the gun jammed!"

No, that was all the fun I got out of the box.

I'm tellin' ya, the money isn't in the guns; it's in the refills!

[MDS]

I think the instance to which I am referring was a Clint Smith Urban Rifle class, not some kind of Flat Dark Earth Hosefest, but your point is absolutely true.

That aside, I really do think that the average consumer vastly overestimates the ruggedness of a sporting arm vis a vis firearms designed to survive rough handling and high round counts with sketchy maintenance in a service-type environment. (My personal rough rule of thumb is that if a firearm can't be disassembled without tools, then it's an indication that it was meant to be cleaned and serviced someplace where there was a light and a workbench and a stool on which to sit. ;) )

1. Where can I get the equipment for the Hosefest? Google says: 1754

2. My only rifle class so far is Randy Cain's Practical Rifle. I was pleasantly surprised at how well the beating was taken by the various R700s and M70s during 500+ rounds of 308 and 30-06 over 3 days. While I suppose I should take a carbine class for HD or civil unrest purposes, I just don't think it would be as much fun as taking a class like Urban Rifle with a bolt gun.

[NETim]

1. Where can I get the equipment for the Hosefest? Google says: 1754

2. My only rifle class so far is Randy Cain's Practical Rifle. I was pleasantly surprised at how well the beating was taken by the various R700s and M70s during 500+ rounds of 308 and 30-06 over 3 days. While I suppose I should take a carbine class for HD or civil unrest purposes, I just don't think it would be as much fun as taking a class like Urban Rifle with a bolt gun.


There was one dude totin' a 5.56 bolt gun in my May UR class. He pulled it off, but it wasn't his first go either.

Everybody else had an evil black rifle.

[Casual Friday]

I like to think I train for reality. I train about 75% pistol, 25% rifle. I always train with my ccw holsters, from concealment, in the same clothes that I wear every day. I took a class once and I was the only guy in his Joe Blow every day attire which for me is cargo shorts, Airwalk shoes, and a Harley-Davidson t-shirt. I don't own a plate carrier, war belt, or anything "tactical" so to speak. For me, that money is better spent on ammo and training.

[Tamara]

I am curious to what the Marlin failures were?

I got around to asking him. The aforementioned problem with the forend; three issues with shell latches/interruptors (or whatever Marlin's nomenclature is for the equivalent part) all three of which required time off the line to clear, but only one of which deadlined the gun; and a broken firing pin.

[Dropkick]

I got around to asking him. The aforementioned problem with the forend; three issues with shell latches/interruptors (or whatever Marlin's nomenclature is for the equivalent part) all three of which required time off the line to clear, but only one of which deadlined the gun; and a broken firing pin.

The Extractor? Ejector? Carrier?
http://www.gunuts.com/images/40.jpg

[Tamara]

The Extractor? Ejector? Carrier?

Problems with a second round partially out of the mag tube tying up the lifter. Whatever part causes that*. I don't know. I'm no levergun mechanic; I haven't had one since I sold my BL-22 back in '07, anyway. (I'm trying to diagnose a malfunction second-hand, to boot.)


(Come to think of it, the little Marlin 1894 in .44 Mag I had cut down to 16.5" in the '90s had the same problem after I had a local guy that the SASS homies swore by slick up the action.)

[Dropkick]

Problems with a second round partially out of the mag tube tying up the lifter. Whatever part causes that*. I don't know. I'm no levergun mechanic; I haven't had one since I sold my BL-22 back in '07, anyway. (I'm trying to diagnose a malfunction second-hand, to boot.)
(Come to think of it, the little Marlin 1894 in .44 Mag I had cut down to 16.5" in the '90s had the same problem after I had a local guy that the SASS homies swore by slick up the action.)
Oh okay, I think I know what you're talking about now. I've had that happen with a pump shotgun, but not a levergun (yet.)

[SLG]

Something most people don't seem to take into consideration is the penetration that shotgun loads tend to have. Great for bears, not so great for urban fighting. I love shotguns, but it is hard for me to pick one today given how unpredictable they can be. Sometimes they go just far enough, and other times they exit the target with too much energy for my liking. All of my other long gun choices are more predictable when there are real live no shoot targets running around. YMMV.

[Malamute]

I mostly use what would be considered hunting guns, but that's more the nature of my uses. I'm conscious of the heritage of various models and tend towards Mausers, 1903 Springfields, and Ruger 77 tangers for the sake of simplicity and perceived reliabilty. The triggers may be the weak link in sporterizing the first two. Some aftermarket triggers aren't as simple as the originals, or some other sporting triggers.

Interesting about the Marlins. Ive used them a bit, but have had more mechanical malfunctions with them than Winchesters (94 and 86's mainly), so pretty much gave up on them. With Marlins I've had a couple of the double feed problems, a lever catch spring died and the action would pop wide open at the slightest jar, magazine tube came loose when the band screws bent (30-30), and a 44 that the fore end tennon pulled out of the barrel dovetail (was a stamped part, they've since made them from a solid piece). Not that much of a fan of the way they cycle in any event.

I came in late, need to get to the beginning of the thread,....

[Greg Bell]

I went to a Ken Hackathorn advanced pistol class one time and made the mistake of making a douchey comment about everyone wearing contractor gear. A few of these guys were local law enforcement, so I can understand why they would wear a duty belt--but most were self-defense and hobbyist types like myself. I refused to use a mag carrier or any kind. Ken agreed with my reasoning completely (he, being a pretty down-to-earth guy). But my thinking is you should absolutely train the way you carry. Back then that meant a Glock 17. These days it would be a J-frame.

[GJM]

Interesting about the Marlins. Ive used them a bit, but have had more mechanical malfunctions with them than Winchesters (94 and 86's mainly), so pretty much gave up on them. With Marlins I've had a couple of the double feed problems, a lever catch spring died and the action would pop wide open at the slightest jar, magazine tube came loose when the band screws bent (30-30), and a 44 that the fore end tennon pulled out of the barrel dovetail (was a stamped part, they've since made them from a solid piece). Not that much of a fan of the way they cycle in any event.

I came in late, need to get to the beginning of the thread,....

I have had issues with Marlin pistol caliber lever guns not feeding reliably, when working the lever in odd positions. Also broken firing pins on the Marlin 30-30 (don't dry fire them!). By contrast, we have a half dozen Guide Guns in .45-70, which have gone for years without a problem -- including running them through multiple 500 round Gunsite classes. 500 rounds may not sound like much, when considering 5.56 or 9mm. but 500 rounds of .45-70 in a week course gets your attention.

[Malamute]

I have had issues with Marlin pistol caliber lever guns not feeding reliably, when working the lever in odd positions. Also broken firing pins on the Marlin 30-30 (don't dry fire them!). By contrast, we have a half dozen Guide Guns in .45-70, which have gone for years without a problem -- including running them through multiple 500 round Gunsite classes. 500 rounds may not sound like much, when considering 5.56 or 9mm. but 500 rounds of .45-70 in a week course gets your attention.


The 95's are my favorite of the bunch. I've had several, and modified them similarly by extending the magazine to full. The 22" round barrel full magazine looks best to me, and I liked the extra rounds for tooling around in bear country. I can't seem to leave anything alone, I've chopped both of the Browning 86's I have, as well as adding receiver sights and slings.

[GJM]

The 95's are my favorite of the bunch. I've had several, and modified them similarly by extending the magazine to full. The 22" round barrel full magazine looks best to me, and I liked the extra rounds for tooling around in bear country. I can't seem to leave anything alone, I've chopped both of the Browning 86's I have, as well as adding receiver sights and slings.

We have chopped most of our Guide Guns to 16.25 barrel length, with a 12.5 LOP for handiness, but extended the magazine to hold five instead of four in the tube.

[Malamute]

That would be really handy in the thick stuff. I have one 94 cut that short but don't care for the muzzle blast. Sure is nice to carry though, and getting in and out of vehicles is easy.

Do you have pics of the chopped full mag guide?

[GJM]

That would be really handy in the thick stuff. I have one 94 cut that short but don't care for the muzzle blast. Sure is nice to carry though, and getting in and out of vehicles is easy.

Do you have pics of the chopped full mag guide?

This Guide Gun belongs to my wife. Outside a course setting, we never notice the blast from the shorter barrel. :)

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/bear_zpsa4e99e74.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/bear_zpsa4e99e74.jpg.html)

[Malamute]

Great picture, and nice bear.

What size is that bear? Ours probably don't get as big as yours. 600-ish is pretty large here.

[GJM]

Great picture, and nice bear.

What size is that bear? Ours probably don't get as big as yours. 600-ish is pretty large here.

Squared about 8 feet, although when we shot it, it was standing on top of a mound of dirt he put over our moose carcass, making it look like a big coastal brown bear.

[Trajan]

Great thread.

While I 100% agree in terms of pistol (with the exception of carrying more than one mag), carbine is a bit different. The reality of using a carbine, for me, is home defense. That means no reloads, no transitions, nothing. I have a BCM 03 MSF that I could throw on for 4 extra mags, but the reality of the situation is, I probably won't bother throwing that on and snapping two buckles. To me that is much more practical than belt mounted mag pouches, as they are often require removing your belt.

This thread has raised a valid question to myself that I pondered a year ago, transition from a carbine to a pistol AIWB. It's less than ideal, especially with a chest rig, but since I never carry strong side (outside of a carbine class or game), it makes more sense. Then again, if I was using a carbine outside of HD (ala the Red Dawn-esq fantasy some subscribe to) wouldn't I have time to put on a chest rig and OWB holster?

With carbine it seems to be a self-defeating cycle. "In real life you wouldn't do this" but then again I wouldn't do the alternative either.

[TheTrevor]

I have no problems transitioning from carbine to AIWB pistol with either a single-point or two-point sling. The carbine is hanging on my front side muzzle-down under control of my left hand during the pistol draw stroke, whether I'm drawing from AIWB or OWB. From there it's straightforward and intuitive to pull the carbine (or shotgun) slightly to my weak side so my draw stroke area is clear of the long gun. If I'm moving quickly to transition to AIWB pistol, I'll pivot my hips a bit to the strong side while moving the carbine slightly to my weak side on the draw.

[Alaskapopo]

So I went shooting with Todd and a few others yesterday.

I have had a few moments of clarity in the past few weeks. Because I learned to shoot in the Canadian Army, and all my training for years was geared to full duty gear, when I retired and was contracting - my training regime stayed the same.

1) After being retired for 9 years and out of security contracting for 5 years -- why am I still training/shooting in a Battle Belt and Vest/Plates? For some courses with work its a necessity - but stuff on my own makes about as much sense as selling ice in Antarctica...

2) I totally suck in draws and reloads from concealment.

Now looking at reality - I carry concealed pretty much 100% of the time unless I need to go into DC or MD for business.
My biggest concern is out with the family and an active shooter scenario occurs - so I probably thus should be training for draws from concealment.

I think Todd is renaming my rendition of the FAST drill as the SLOW - as he could have gone for coffee before I was done, admittedly I could have sped up a lot if the accuracy and/or concealment aspect was ignored.

So am I the only has been out there than has not made the transition to realistic training requirements?
I shoot more with my competition stuff but I do also shoot regularly just less often with my duty gear and off duty gear. I also try and shoot at least a few matches a year with my duty gear. Its good practice.
Pat

[Crow Hunter]

Wow.

Really good thread.

This is something that I have honestly been thinking a lot about over the last year or so. There is quite a few $ worth of rifles/magazines/spare parts and yes one Eagle chest rig :p just sitting in my closet/gun safe that may just be a useless waste of yearly insurance payments for me.

Should I, as a civilian, even bother having an AR at all? (Along with all the optics, magazines, XM193/885, spare parts)

For most rifle sporting purposes it would really make more sense to use a much lighter, lower cost, probably more accurate with a better trigger, definitely more svelte bolt action.

I get quite a bit of experience with shotgun manipulations, from nearly 30 years worth of hunting. For close range back up defense of the homestead, a shotgun would probably stand in good stead for a carbine.

Other than a fantasy Red Dawn/Zombie/TEOTWAWKI/Civil unrest scenario or just to stick it under the anti's noses, why should I, or other civilian own an AR?

Those of you who don't have a .mil/LEO/PMC need for a AR type rifle, why do you own it?

[DacoRoman]

Wow.

Really good thread.

This is something that I have honestly been thinking a lot about over the last year or so. There is quite a few $ worth of rifles/magazines/spare parts and yes one Eagle chest rig :p just sitting in my closet/gun safe that may just be a useless waste of yearly insurance payments for me.

Should I, as a civilian, even bother having an AR at all? (Along with all the optics, magazines, XM193/885, spare parts)

For most rifle sporting purposes it would really make more sense to use a much lighter, lower cost, probably more accurate with a better trigger, definitely more svelte bolt action.

I get quite a bit of experience with shotgun manipulations, from nearly 30 years worth of hunting. For close range back up defense of the homestead, a shotgun would probably stand in good stead for a carbine.

Other than a fantasy Red Dawn/Zombie/TEOTWAWKI/Civil unrest scenario or just to stick it under the anti's noses, why should I, or other civilian own an AR?

Those of you who don't have a .mil/LEO/PMC need for a AR type rifle, why do you own it?

I was in LA during the Rodney King riots and I was glad to have an AR 15 with multiple magazines at the ready, along with my G17 for home defense. Had I had a chest rig at the time I may have even put it on.

[Drang]

...Other than a fantasy Red Dawn/Zombie/TEOTWAWKI/Civil unrest scenario or just to stick it under the anti's noses, why should I, or other civilian own an AR?

Those of you who don't have a .mil/LEO/PMC need for a AR type rifle, why do you own it?

Because I want to. Because I can.
Because
I am not a number. I am a free man!
Number Six (The Prisoner) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_Six_(The_Prisoner))
http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/3e/3ec106c5e9efe6508f757a596fdb9c16834d348c64a4e80522 808570e4303714.jpg

[KevinB]

Those of you who don't have a .mil/LEO/PMC need for a AR type rifle, why do you own it?

I think everyone should own and AR and know how to use it.
Just cause.

When I started this thread, my point was not specifically on gear and weapons, but how you balance out your training.

Generally I shoot about 75% of my free shooting with pistol. Simply as the pistol fundamentals transfer and the trigger aspect is so much more and issue on the pistol as to the rifle.


You need to ask your self, what is your greatest threat.

[Dagga Boy]

Because someday you may call 911 and there is nobody to come.

[JodyH]

Because someday you may call 911 and there is nobody to come.
If they don't come to the party, I don't want any help with the cleanup.
And as long as our parents don't find out, it never happened.

[DocGKR]

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4334-Home-Defense-Long-Guns

For those U.S. citizens living in free states unencumbered by illogical restrictions, the AR15 is a superb personal/home defense weapon.

[Alaskapopo]

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4334-Home-Defense-Long-Guns

For those U.S. citizens living in free states unencumbered by illogical restrictions, the AR15 is a superb personal/home defense weapon.

And about the best weapon type to have in your hands if you ever had to face a home invasion with armed attackers.
pat

[Tamara]

I think everyone should own and AR and know how to use it.

My AP U.S. Government teacher in high school said that every American should do two things on their eighteenth birthday: Register to vote, and buy a rifle.

[Josh Runkle]

I think it's bad gunshop advice when the person behind the counter says, "Well, if you ever need more than 5 shots, you're doing it wrong."

I apply the same logic to civilian training. Yes, most gun fights end around 3 shots. (Hence the oft quoted, "3 steps, 3 shots, 3 seconds") I want more than 5 shots available, because no one can predict the uncertainty of life.

By the same token, while it is not probable that I will need a carbine to defend myself, it is possible and even plausible. I definitely think that 80%+ of my training should be with a handgun. I still go for my EDC when things go bump in the night, because I have the most training with that gun. It melts into my hand and becomes an extension of my body. I keep a carbine ready and I spend some time training with it simply because no one can predict with absolute certainty that I won't need it.

In 2011, the ranch I lived on in 2006 was taken over by a cartel as a landing strip and shipping facility. My friends from there had to sneak out in the middle of the night. Another friend of mine owns a lot of property and deals with coyote problems every year. Watching the news this weekend about the looting of water in WV, who's to say when it might be a carbine fight?

So, yes, I think civilians should spend most of their training with a handgun, but they might also certainly have need for a carbine as well.

[ToddG]

How did we get all this way through the thread without:


http://youtu.be/sdVFLTbQuHE

[Salamander]

Those of you who don't have a .mil/LEO/PMC need for a AR type rifle, why do you own it?

Because it seemed like it would be fun to learn how to build one from scratch... which did in fact turn out to be the case.

It hardly ever gets to come out and play, though. Even though I'm in a gun-friendly part of the state and there are lots of AR's up here, what's the point of an AR with a bullet button and limited to 10-round mags? My M1 Garand might be more effective, at least I could reload it more quickly... and as long as I shoot to the south from here, there's a whole mountain to stop overpenetration :)

Seriously though, most of my training and all of my carry is with pistols and I shoot bolt guns for fun. And I'm doing my two-year CCW renewal quals in the morning in whatever I'm wearing to the office right after that.

[Tamara]

And I'm doing my two-year CCW renewal quals...

Just reading that makes me want to shake my bowcaster in the tyrant's face.

2047

[NickA]

My AP U.S. Government teacher in high school said that every American should do two things on their eighteenth birthday: Register to vote, and buy a rifle.

And boy did you listen :D

Great thoughts on the whole AR thing. I've wrestled with it the last several years. I don't have one, since I just can't talk myself into spending that kind of money on something that I'll barely use, even for fun. Then every time there's a panic I freak out about it.
Reading this thread clarified something for me: I carry a pistol because if I need it, nothing else will do. In the same sense, if I need a rifle, there's really no substitute. So even if it sits in the safe 99% of the time, it's good to have. Plus some people think I shouldn't have one, and that's always a good enough reason to buy one :cool:

[45dotACP]

Other than a fantasy Red Dawn/Zombie/TEOTWAWKI/Civil unrest scenario or just to stick it under the anti's noses, why should I, or other civilian own an AR?

Those of you who don't have a .mil/LEO/PMC need for a AR type rifle, why do you own it?

A couple reasons...3 gun competitions Also, the real reason is this. At some point when I scrape up the dollar$, I will get myself a heavy barreled 20" rifle length AR, plop down on a bench and start 'sploding prarie dogs from football fields away as fast as I can properly apply the fundamentals. The Red Dawn thing doesn't hold interest to me and Zombies? Don't make me laugh. I buy guns because they are fun.

I enjoy the competitive nature the sport brings out in me. No, It's not a popular view with the HSLD types out there who think that if I have a gun I'd better be ready to use it on Tangos and !FIGHT! Sure, I'd be ready and willing to shoot some miscreant trying to kick in the door to my home, but the main reason I bought my first gun wasn't because I ever thought I'd need to shoot someone. I'm blessed to live in a nice neighborhood and I'm pretty easy to get along with. I just happen to like running around shooting cardboard targets. This is not to downplay the importance of self defense oriented shooters and trainers of course. I will probably take a few self defense classes at some point and get serious about CCW (Shall issue in IL! Yea baby!). But as for now, broke college student I am, I reload 9mm and use Fobus mag pouches. :o

[Alaskapopo]

My AP U.S. Government teacher in high school said that every American should do two things on their eighteenth birthday: Register to vote, and buy a rifle.

They had AP classes back when you were in High school? I thought that started in the 90's.

[TheTrevor]

They had AP classes back when you were in High school? I thought that started in the 90's.

You were a diplomat in a previous life, weren't you, Pat?

[Tamara]

You were a diplomat in a previous life, weren't you, Pat?

It's not his fault; they don't have Google out his way, yet, and besides, why would he need to know the history of the AP program? It's pretty obscure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Placement#History).

[45dotACP]

Haha, my AP U.S. History teacher was a buddhist and he thought Bono was just about the coolest guy in the world. Needless to say, there wasn't much of an exhortation to buy a rifle for we students.

But I did anyway :cool:

[LittleLebowski]

They had AP classes back when you were in High school? I thought that started in the 90's.

Still single, eh :D

[NickA]

At least it wasn't "You mean they let chicks take AP courses way back then?"
:D

[David Armstrong]

Well, I recently gave my AR to the son-in-law. Just didn't see much need for it any more and he can use it with the SWAT team. For home use I prefer the M1 Carbine these days, and outside of the house I've gone back to the M1 Garand and/or the Jungle Carbine version of the .303 SMLE.

[Tamara]

I think it is the obligation of the citizen of a free republic to keep on hand (and maintain proficiency with) their nation's standard service rifle, not because they think it's cool, but because it's their nation's standard service rifle.

[1986s4]

I think it is the obligation of the citizen of a free republic to keep on hand (and maintain proficiency with) their nation's standard service rifle, not because they think it's cool, but because it's their nation's standard service rifle.

Yes. I very much agree.

As for training gear. I have some tactical khakis that I use for outdoor matches, training and such. Why? Because they are cheap LA Police gear BDUs and I don't care if I rip 'em. I do shoot my indoor matches and practice in whatever I'm wearing that day. I often try out my carry gear in matches to confirm it could work. I do have some Mil kit because I am one. Not a highly trained trigger puller, just a support of the support guy. But it gets little use because I prefer a Grey Man approach when out with the wife and kids.

[Al T.]

My AP U.S. Government teacher in high school said that every American should do two things on their eighteenth birthday: Register to vote, and buy a rifle.

Not everybody has Lt. Col. Jean V. Dubois (Ret.) as his/her teacher. ;)

[Alaskapopo]

Well, I recently gave my AR to the son-in-law. Just didn't see much need for it any more and he can use it with the SWAT team. For home use I prefer the M1 Carbine these days, and outside of the house I've gone back to the M1 Garand and/or the Jungle Carbine version of the .303 SMLE.

Lol going retro huh. Lol.
Pat

[LSP972]

Not everybody has Lt. Col. Jean V. Dubois (Ret.) as his/her teacher. ;)

What a great book that is. Pity they made such a retard movie out of it.

.