Fat People can't teach.......

[Dagga Boy]

Found this gem lately:

http://www.dynamictrainingstrategies.com/overweight-instructors/

Are you kidding? What the hell is up with the skinny micro people of the world? Here is a place with a pretty limited training background who is telling students not to take classes with overweight people.........really? I guess Vicker's decades in the special operations community is worthless. Rob Haught can now not teach. Several other guys who were lifetime skinny dudes are starting to get a little mid section girth in their 60's.......so their brains have had the knowledge sucked out. I guess the fact that Wayne and I are running well over 500 lbs of combined weight is double the reason that we don't know anything. Steve Fisher is running over 300 pounds......and he is fricking scary and moves like a "healthy person", but is obviously unfit to teach.

What is kind of humorous is that I have been involved in fights, chases, and gunfights with lots of "healthy weight people", and unlike many of them I wasn't eating through a tube in ICU for several days afterwards.

So am I off base, or should I just throw in the towel and admit that "Combat Focus" and my crossfit work out are the only way to "Really" be a instructor.

[BLR]

Who is Tyler Grant? And why do you care what he says?

[Chuck Haggard]

I guess I should quit teaching.

[41magfan]

I think this is simply a natural by-product of the competition created by the proliferation of "Gun Teachers" since the early 90's, and if you've been around a while you know what served as the catalyst for this phenomenon.

Everyone out there selling or pitching something as a Firearms/Tactics Instructor - even if it's nothing but his ego - has got to have an angle if he doesn't have anything relevant or meaningful to offer. There's a practical limit to what can be rebranded, renamed and reinvented, so little things like this are simply efforts to distract the uninitiated - who are easily impressed by just about anything.

[Byron]

Who is Tyler Grant?
He's the guy whose mother posted a glowing course review to M4C as part of Mr. Grant's aggressive marketing of Pincus' Combat Focus Shooting (CFS).

Whereas he was previously the owner of Grant Tactical Training, looks like he now owns Dynamic Training Strategies (fits the CFS nomenclature better, I guess).

My crystal ball tells me this thread is headed in ugly directions.

[ToddG]

Typical instructor's definition of the ideal instructor: what he sees in the mirror every morning. Maybe I should write a blog post about how instructors with two kidneys aren't taking hardcore survival seriously. :cool:

[BLR]

He's the guy whose mother posted a glowing course review to M4C as part of Mr. Grant's aggressive marketing of Pincus' Combat Focus Shooting (CFS).


LOL

His mom? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I really hope that is true.

Ahhhhhh. I needed that today.

Jimmy and Pinky. :rolleyes:

[LittleLebowski]

Typical instructor's definition of the ideal instructor: what he sees in the mirror every morning. Maybe I should write a blog post about how instructors with two kidneys aren't taking hardcore survival seriously. :cool:

Awesome.

[GJM]

There is a big difference between overweight and obese, and fair or unfair, society definitely has a strong bias against obese people.

Chris Christie gets this, and realizes he doesn't have a chance of going further in politics at his current size. A guy that can't fit into the front seat of a Hughes 500 without a seatbelt extender and blocking the controls, isn't going to have a bright future as a TFO. Anyone want a 340 pound buddy as your partner on a backpack sheep hunt? Heck, in Alaska, people even pick their dogs based on size, with smaller and lighter easier to go into the back of the aircraft. I am reading a non-fiction book on Afghanistan now, and the leader is just picking 3 people to accompany him on a quick response group to help another group ambushed, and his primary criteria was size/fitness to be able to move quickly to get up the mountain where they needed to go.

I absolutely wouldn't decide whether or not to attend a shooting course based on the instructor's BMI, but I think it was be less than candid to say the normal rules of life don't apply to shooting instructors, too.

[41magfan]

The truth is, absent some specific context, most of the minutia in any discussion concerning any person's skill or ability is fairly meaningless. The ability to run a 4-minute mile or do a thousand pull-ups is an irrelevant point if the job at hand is solving a tough math equation.

[Shellback]

Dude, he was in the National Guard in college and he's got the beard! His FB page shows "CQC" photos and other Southnarc'ish acronyms. Not the guy I would be seeking out for training.

http://www.dynamictrainingstrategies.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/IMG_3415.jpg

http://www.dynamictrainingstrategies.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/IMG_22741.jpg

[jetfire]

My beard is better than that.

Also, people shouldn't take classes from instructors taller than 5'9, because in a real life dynamic combat situation you're going to crouch and short guys have more practical experience in seeing the world from lower angles.

[Dagga Boy]

There is a big difference between overweight and obese, and fair or unfair, society definitely has a strong bias against obese people.

Chris Christie gets this, and realizes he doesn't have a chance of going further in politics at his current size. A guy that can't fit into the front seat of a Hughes 500 without a seatbelt extender and blocking the controls, isn't going to have a bright future as a TFO. Anyone want a 340 pound buddy as your partner on a backpack sheep hunt? Heck, in Alaska, people even pick their dogs based on size, with smaller and lighter easier to go into the back of the aircraft. I am reading a non-fiction book on Afghanistan now, and the leader is just picking 3 people to accompany him on a quick response group to help another group ambushed, and his primary criteria was size/fitness to be able to move quickly to get up the mountain where they needed to go.

I absolutely wouldn't decide whether or not to attend a shooting course based on the instructor's BMI, but I think it was be less than candid to say the normal rules of life don't apply to shooting instructors, too.

I was a TFO in a 500. I had to lose 70 pounds in 3 month's to meet the weight standard and was on the Atkins induction diet for four years to stay at 200 pounds. It was a job requirement. What is funny is that my small or string bean partners could eat anything they wanted because the were simply "different". I was a big guy in a skinny guys job. Now, not having to do that anymore, does it mean that everything I learned in that job about hunting humans from a bird, cockpit resource management, and Multi tasking in a very high stress environment is now irrelevant and could not be shared. Same with the shooting and combatives. Is knowledge and teaching ability erased as someone's size change? I have put a majority of my weight on after dealing with injuries. I am a more dedicated "teacher" now that my "doing" days are pretty much over. The key is guys like the guy who penned the original blog post are now trying to tell students that experience is invalidated by his health ideas. I have a feeling that the scariest thing he has ever done is come home and his mom didn't leave the porch light on, but hey, he is "sleek".
The reason this stuff perturbes the crap out of me is when I recently watched Tom Givens execute a clean, smooth, and well disciplined sub 2 second Bill Drill with his daily carry gun, and we got a guy who is essentially saying guys like Tom is declared unfit to teach because his ab definition is different that a guy who is probably genetically disposed to be lean. On the other side, Taran Butler isn't exactly thin. I have an old partner (who was a micro size physical specimen), who had come out of multiple specialized military units in two branches and went to Taran regularly to improve his shooting skills....not his work out skills, his mechanical shooting skills. I guess his crossfit instructor wasn't such a hot shooting instructor.

[Tamara]

This is yet another manifestation of The Charge Of The 300. Everybody who can buy a McFranchise and get access to a berm is hanging out their flat dark earth shingle and calling themselves a McShooting instructor now.

As with the firearms themselves, so also with the training to use them. Be an informed consumer; there is always someone to relieve the gullible, lazy, uninformed, and credulous of their cash. Caveat emptor, baby.


Steve Fisher is running over 300 pounds....

Steve's pretty svelte for a sasquatch, though. (I'm a hair over six feet in my Danners, and there's a picture somewhere on one of Oleg's hard drives of Steve ambushing me from behind and scooping me off the ground like I'm maybe the size of a fifth grader. :eek: )


PS: I'm going to make a tool for vetting potential instructors myself, and it's not going to involve BMI, but rather some kind of jargon bingo card. Fill a row across, down, or diagonally in one webpage or Facebook post and I can generally write the establishment off as a pack of clownshoes. Depending on how it works, I might market it.

PPS: I told somebody "You don't know what you're talking about. Shut up and get off the internet" last weekend. It was liberating. I think you need to do that more yourself. ;)

[jetfire]

Serious talk for a moment: a lot of people taking defensive firearms training in order to be ready for "the fight" would probably be better off spending that time on a bike or walking or something. Maybe eating one less cheeseburger.

I (and most people) am far more likely to die of a heart attack than I am from a gunfight.

[Chuck Haggard]

Typical instructor's definition of the ideal instructor: what he sees in the mirror every morning. . :cool:

So I should only take classes taught by gorgeous stud warriors?


That certainly cuts down my list of potential instructors.

[ffhounddog]

I prefer my instructors to drink a case of beer wake up to coffee and a steak and then do stuff.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Serious talk for a moment: a lot of people taking defensive firearms training in order to be ready for "the fight" would probably be better off spending that time on a bike or walking or something. Maybe eating one less cheeseburger.

I (and most people) am far more likely to die of a heart attack than I am from a gunfight.

I really, really concur. The attack most people should be training to survive is definitely coronary in nature.

I wouldn't cross fat people off my list of shooting instructors. I would be more hesitant to listen to them as general "survival coaches" though and I think what's happened is that a lot of people have started to view them that way. Which is really more a matter of people's inability to process statistical information than anything else, but still.

Flawless, sub-moa fit and finish...all day long.

[JV_]

Serious talk for a moment: a lot of people taking defensive firearms training in order to be ready for "the fight" would probably be better off spending that time on a bike or walking or something.Great! Now I don't feel so bad for spending only 1 hour on the range (last week) and 10 hours on my bike.

[jlw]

I have enjoyed reading this thread whilst consuming a bowl of chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream...

[GJM]

The reason this stuff perturbes the crap out of me is when I recently watched Tom Givens execute a clean, smooth, and well disciplined sub 2 second Bill Drill with his daily carry gun, and we got a guy who is essentially saying guys like Tom is declared unfit to teach because his ab definition is different that a guy who is probably genetically disposed to be lean.


The guy saying that is a dork, end of discussion.

There is a difference between full figured and obese. Being morbidly obese is a health condition that gives rise to the reasonable concern of the ability of the instructor to teach and function.

With this thread, plus ones on the pressout and fantasy training today, I predict a lot of butt hurt soon.

[Tamara]

Great! Now I don't feel so bad for spending only 1 hour on the range (last week) and 10 hours on my bike.

I'm going to go ride my bike right now...

...to the store for a six pack of beer. :p

[JV_]

I ride for the food. When I get back, I can eat a bowl of ice cream the size of my head.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4

[Dave Williams]

I am far from fit but I took a class once where a friend of mine who is the fittest person I know had to listen to a lecture on warrior mindset from a gigantic obese instructor and it did not work.

[TCinVA]

Found this gem lately:

http://www.dynamictrainingstrategies.com/overweight-instructors/

Are you kidding? What the hell is up with the skinny micro people of the world? Here is a place with a pretty limited training background who is telling students not to take classes with overweight people.........really? I guess Vicker's decades in the special operations community is worthless. Rob Haught can now not teach. Several other guys who were lifetime skinny dudes are starting to get a little mid section girth in their 60's.......so their brains have had the knowledge sucked out. I guess the fact that Wayne and I are running well over 500 lbs of combined weight is double the reason that we don't know anything. Steve Fisher is running over 300 pounds......and he is fricking scary and moves like a "healthy person", but is obviously unfit to teach.

What is kind of humorous is that I have been involved in fights, chases, and gunfights with lots of "healthy weight people", and unlike many of them I wasn't eating through a tube in ICU for several days afterwards.

So am I off base, or should I just throw in the towel and admit that "Combat Focus" and my crossfit work out are the only way to "Really" be a instructor.

I'm just going to be blunt: This "combat focus" instructor franchise is becoming a gaping maw of idiocy, full of people who lack the background or learning to back up the things they are saying.

When I see someone is associated with that program I just tune them out, personally.

[Rich]

Found this gem lately:

http://www.dynamictrainingstrategies.com/overweight-instructors/

Are you kidding? What the hell is up with the skinny micro people of the world? Here is a place with a pretty limited training background who is telling students not to take classes with overweight people.........really? I guess Vicker's decades in the special operations community is worthless. Rob Haught can now not teach. Several other guys who were lifetime skinny dudes are starting to get a little mid section girth in their 60's.......so their brains have had the knowledge sucked out. I guess the fact that Wayne and I are running well over 500 lbs of combined weight is double the reason that we don't know anything. Steve Fisher is running over 300 pounds......and he is fricking scary and moves like a "healthy person", but is obviously unfit to teach.

What is kind of humorous is that I have been involved in fights, chases, and gunfights with lots of "healthy weight people", and unlike many of them I wasn't eating through a tube in ICU for several days afterwards.

So am I off base, or should I just throw in the towel and admit that "Combat Focus" and my crossfit work out are the only way to "Really" be a instructor.

I wonder how fit the younger instructors will be when they hit 40`s or 50`s.

I know I started to gain weight pretty fast when I hit my 40`s

was wearing 32- 34 and now wearing 38.

[YVK]

Last scientific fat paper I read stated that not all fat is being equal, based on considerable variability of outcomes between chubby people. Apparently, size of individual adipose tissue cells makes a lot of difference.
Sorry, nyeti, I am going to have to poke a small needle into your belly and look at the specimen under a microscope before I took a class from you.


If that dude's on-target accuracy is anywhere similar to his ability to deliver a non-tangential message, I wonder where he gets practice targets, 'cause they normally don't make them that big.

[Sparks2112]

So there was a point in my life when I weighed 160 pounds with about 5.5% body fat and ran 10 miles every morning as a WARMUP....

Now I'm around 285 with destroyed knees and an obliterated hip. I sweat driving 10 miles in my car...

If I had to pick which one of me to take a shooting lesson from it'd be the fat guy, he KNOWS more than the skinny guy did...

[Tamara]

My clothes started shrinking when I quit smoking. Maybe I should take up the cancer sticks again so I can be healthy.

[Ed L]

I'm just going to be blunt: This "combat focus" instructor franchise is becoming a gaping maw of idiocy, full of people who lack the background or learning to back up the things they are saying. .

Yup. Especially when they start trying to use some non-valid criteria to take a shot at many trainers who have far more real life experience and credibility than they do.

[LittleLebowski]

I'm just going to be blunt: This "combat focus" instructor franchise is becoming a gaping maw of idiocy, full of people who lack the background or learning to back up the things they are saying.

When I see someone is associated with that program I just tune them out, personally.

Agreed.

[Tamara]

many trainers who have far more real life experience and credibility

The counter to that, of course, is that "Old School trainers get mired in 'Doing things the way we do because that's the way we've always done it.' These trainers refuse to improvise and evolve and learn new techniques because they're mired in the flat square-range cardboard target world of Gunsite dogma."

Marketing against straw competitors who espouse straw dogma is easier.

[Ed L]

Serious talk for a moment: a lot of people taking defensive firearms training in order to be ready for "the fight" would probably be better off spending that time on a bike or walking or something. Maybe eating one less cheeseburger.

I (and most people) am far more likely to die of a heart attack than I am from a gunfight.

People are overweight for a number of reasons including genetics, metabolism, bad diet, overeating, no exercise, medicines that make them gain weight, and a combination of these over time.

Losing the weight may involve more time, commitment, activities and regularity and consistency of all of these than the person is ready or willing to commit to. They may not enjoy it, they may love eating and eating the types of foods and amounts of foods that are not conducive to maintaining or losing weight; they may hate exercising. This is their personal choice of living their life on their terms.

However, crime and violence is about someone imposing their own choices, injuries, suffering, trauma, fear upon you. Many people find this more frightening and traumatic than looming health issues.

They reject someone else being able to impose this upon them or make choices as to whether they or their loved ones will live or die or suffer physical and psychological injuries or be deprived of their possessions. They find taking the measures to secure against this and maximize the chance of protecting themself. Thus owning firearms and training makes them feel better, more secure, etc. Further, they may even enjoy shooting, or really enjoy diving into an all you can eat desert bar.

Also, compare the activity level and time requirements of taking a decent 2 day shooting course and then practicing a few times a month with the type of exercise schedule and dieting requirements with losing a lot of weight and keeping it off. Is it any surprise that some people might find firearms training and practice easier and more enjoyable and easier to impliment in their life?

[Tamara]

Interviewer: "Do you think you're in good enough shape?"

John Kruk: "To run a marathon? Probably not. To play baseball? I think I'll be fine. It's only ninety feet between bases."

:D

[LittleLebowski]

Nowadays, we are blessed with many good trainers. Trainers who win at competitions and trainers who have won at combat. I'm not following why to receive training from someone that teaches "combat focus" shooting who hasn't seen combat and also sneers at competition shooting.

[Chuck Haggard]

I think a bunch of this jumps back to Todd's "my kung fu is better than your kung fu" blog from some time ago.

[Dagga Boy]

This is yet another manifestation of The Charge Of The 300. Everybody who can buy a McFranchise and get access to a berm is hanging out their flat dark earth shingle and calling themselves a McShooting instructor now.

As with the firearms themselves, so also with the training to use them. Be an informed consumer; there is always someone to relieve the gullible, lazy, uninformed, and credulous of their cash. Caveat emptor, baby.



Steve's pretty svelte for a sasquatch, though. (I'm a hair over six feet in my Danners, and there's a picture somewhere on one of Oleg's hard drives of Steve ambushing me from behind and scooping me off the ground like I'm maybe the size of a fifth grader. :eek: )


PS: I'm going to make a tool for vetting potential instructors myself, and it's not going to involve BMI, but rather some kind of jargon bingo card. Fill a row across, down, or diagonally in one webpage or Facebook post and I can generally write the establishment off as a pack of clownshoes. Depending on how it works, I might market it.

PPS: I told somebody "You don't know what you're talking about. Shut up and get off the internet" last weekend. It was liberating. I think you need to do that more yourself. ;)

Steve is like several of my friends who we define as "retard" strong. These are people not to be messed with.

As far as the "PPS".......I just got back on the internet after a vacation...........I guess I am just not cut out for this:(.

[Byron]

Is it any surprise that some people might find firearms training and practice easier and more enjoyable and easier to impliment in their life?
Of course not. But I think Caleb's point remains 100% valid. He's not saying everyone should enjoy becoming healthier, or that it will be easy for everyone. The statistical reality cannot be ignored, however: more Americans die from their diet than from attackers. These causes of death aren't even in the same ballpark.

This isn't even a statistic that is disconnected from our reality. How many people do we know who died from violence? Now how many do we know who have died from heart attack, stroke, etc?



Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4

[jlw]

He's accomplished one thing: more people know about him this afternoon than did this morning.

[Tamara]

As far as the "PPS".......I just got back on the internet after a vacation...........I guess I am just not cut out for this:(.

What, telling people they're idiots and need to get off the internet? You'd be awesome at telling idjits that!

What's more, you know you want to tell idjits that. Search your feelings; you know it to be true. ;)

[jetfire]

People are overweight for a number of reasons including genetics, metabolism, bad diet, overeating, no exercise, medicines that make them gain weight, and a combination of these over time.

Losing the weight may involve more time, commitment, activities and regularity and consistency of all of these than the person is ready or willing to commit to. They may not enjoy it, they may love eating and eating the types of foods and amounts of foods that are not conducive to maintaining or losing weight; they may hate exercising. This is their personal choice of living their life on their terms.

However, crime and violence is about someone imposing their own choices, injuries, suffering, trauma, fear upon you. Many people find this more frightening and traumatic than looming health issues.

They reject someone else being able to impose this upon them or make choices as to whether they or their loved ones will live or die or suffer physical and psychological injuries or be deprived of their possessions. They find taking the measures to secure against this and maximize the chance of protecting themself. Thus owning firearms and training makes them feel better, more secure, etc. Further, they may even enjoy shooting, or really enjoy diving into an all you can eat desert bar.

Also, compare the activity level and time requirements of taking a decent 2 day shooting course and then practicing a few times a month with the type of exercise schedule and dieting requirements with losing a lot of weight and keeping it off. Is it any surprise that some people might find firearms training and practice easier and more enjoyable and easier to impliment in their life?

I didn't say anything about "losing weight." There is an incorrect correlation in modern society between body weight and health. Yes, a morbidly obsess person is objectively unhealthy. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about making radical changes either. I'm talking about simple things that anyone can do, like walk three miles twice a week and cut back on soda or fatty food. These aren't major lifestyle changes, and basically every doctor ever agrees that they're really good ideas.

[Hatchetman]

Sad fact of the matter is stirring up controversy if the fastest way to create an internet buzz in some circles. This yutz it's probably watching the hits off this bit of inanity rack up and wondering how he can top it. Can't wait until he discovers YouTube. . . .

[ToddG]

There are lots of things doctors agree on. Most of us probably don't follow all of them. There are a lot of things we all know would be good for our long term health and safety. Most of us probably don't follow all of them, either.

But I don't need a firearms instructor giving me medical advice any more than I expect my doctor to give me shooting tips. I didn't ask for a judgment on my lifestyle from someone who has no idea of my medical history, family history, priorities in life, favorite color, first crush, or how many thetans I've got glued to my forehead (or however that's supposed to work).

[Dagga Boy]

What, telling people they're idiots and need to get off the internet? You'd be awesome at telling idjits that!

What's more, you know you want to tell idjits that. Search your feelings; you know it to be true. ;)

I took that wrong...
The reality is I think the Internet is already too full, and it's a lost cause. I give up, the Internet wins...

[jetfire]

There are lots of things doctors agree on. Most of us probably don't follow all of them. There are a lot of things we all know would be good for our long term health and safety. Most of us probably don't follow all of them, either.

But I don't need a firearms instructor giving me medical advice any more than I expect my doctor to give me shooting tips. I didn't ask for a judgment on my lifestyle from someone who has no idea of my medical history, family history, priorities in life, favorite color, first crush, or how many thetans I've got glued to my forehead (or however that's supposed to work).

Clearly, what the world is waiting for is a combination personal trainer/shooting coach/life coach/spirit guide. That guy would have it MADE

[GJM]

I have been giving this thread serious thought, and I know Nyeti was deep down looking for some action with it, and probably disappointed how tame it stayed.

BMI is one thing, but the thing that really puts me off is when the instructor is too tall. Take Steve Tarani for example, he is way too tall to relate to. Besides him being scary with a knife, I just feel like a midget around him.

Anyone else feel the same?

[Tamara]

Clearly, what the world is waiting for is a combination personal trainer/shooting coach/life coach/spirit guide. That guy would have it MADE

I think I just bit my tongue off.

[ToddG]

Clearly, what the world is waiting for is a combination personal trainer/shooting coach/life coach/spirit guide. That guy would have it MADE

http://bzfilm.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/apr-21_chuck-norris.jpg

http://www.empireonline.com/images/uploaded/chuck-norris-uzis.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kcB7bTbOd-U/TtabRZp_TPI/AAAAAAAABBk/Z9MO2n9gsfQ/s400/Checkmate.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Deu-107N9zM/TWmFwxxruWI/AAAAAAAAB5A/6uSIcB-Tmww/s400/chuck.jpg

[Sparks2112]

http://bzfilm.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/apr-21_chuck-norris.jpg

http://www.empireonline.com/images/uploaded/chuck-norris-uzis.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kcB7bTbOd-U/TtabRZp_TPI/AAAAAAAABBk/Z9MO2n9gsfQ/s400/Checkmate.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Deu-107N9zM/TWmFwxxruWI/AAAAAAAAB5A/6uSIcB-Tmww/s400/chuck.jpg

My girlfriend hates you, I just woke her up laughing.

[Ed L]

I didn't say anything about "losing weight." There is an incorrect correlation in modern society between body weight and health. Yes, a morbidly obsess person is objectively unhealthy. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about making radical changes either. I'm talking about simple things that anyone can do, like walk three miles twice a week and cut back on soda or fatty food. These aren't major lifestyle changes, and basically every doctor ever agrees that they're really good ideas.

This is a thread about fat people, or rather fat instructors.

Not everyone wants to follow your advice or shares your outlook towards diet and exercise, regardless of its validity.

Some people's idea of exercise is vigorous sitting.

[jetfire]

http://bzfilm.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/apr-21_chuck-norris.jpg

http://www.empireonline.com/images/uploaded/chuck-norris-uzis.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kcB7bTbOd-U/TtabRZp_TPI/AAAAAAAABBk/Z9MO2n9gsfQ/s400/Checkmate.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Deu-107N9zM/TWmFwxxruWI/AAAAAAAAB5A/6uSIcB-Tmww/s400/chuck.jpg

/thread

[LHS]

What's the difference between Chuck Norris and God?

People don't think God is Chuck Norris.

[TCinVA]

What's the difference between Chuck Norris and God?

People don't think God is Chuck Norris.

You've never seen God and Chuck Norris in the same room at the same time.

Think about that.

[Robert Mitchum]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8_1n6Y4l74

Terron Armstead, a 6'4", 306 lb

[rob_s]

Losing the weight may involve more time, commitment, activities and regularity and consistency of all of these than the person is ready or willing to commit to. They may not enjoy it, they may love eating and eating the types of foods and amounts of foods that are not conducive to maintaining or losing weight; they may hate exercising. This is their personal choice of living their life on their terms.

Yet that same person will take hours a week and thousands of dollars to train for something that will NEVER happen.

You are right, people have almost complete control over whether or not they are going to have to deal with a violent encounter (don't be a dirtbag is pretty much the entire plan, followed by don't associate with dirtbags). So, too, do they have the ability to mitigate the likelihood of major health issues and their ability to recover from same.

The bottom line here is that people don't think then act, they act then rationalize. So everyone defaults to defending their own BS. The fat guy htat simply likes shooting but claims that hes there because:survival rationalizes away the irony of the fact that the lunch he ate at the range is more likely to kill him than the bad guy on the way home.

But as relates to instructors, if they can teach me the skill I'm there to learn (shooting) then I really don't care if they do it from a wheelchair, or frankly how well they themselves can shoot. Extra points if they don't drone on about "gunfight" if they've never been in one.

[LOKNLOD]

I want a firearms instructor to instruct me in the use of firearms. He could be in a Rascal Scooter for all I care, if he knows what he's talking about and can convey it well and coach my technique. Not that I plan on taking any classes from the fat kid from the internet (http://enjoytherandom.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/114982596706510297_53YUYiA2_f.jpg) but if an instructor's belly size interferes with his ability to view my trigger control, he must be even more nearsighted than me.




http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kcB7bTbOd-U/TtabRZp_TPI/AAAAAAAABBk/Z9MO2n9gsfQ/s400/Checkmate.jpg



Shouldn't that say Chuckmate?

[Rich]

So there was a point in my life when I weighed 160 pounds with about 5.5% body fat and ran 10 miles every morning as a WARMUP....

Now I'm around 285 with destroyed knees and an obliterated hip. I sweat driving 10 miles in my car...

If I had to pick which one of me to take a shooting lesson from it'd be the fat guy, he KNOWS more than the skinny guy did...

I hear ya ! LOL

[Al T.]

Extra points if they don't drone on about "gunfight" if they've never been in one.

Flip side of that is that I've met folks who have used a firearm to defend themselves and they promptly conclude their toolset and skillset is all one needs. Sample of one and all that. Rather have a non-gunfight guy or gal whose training methods and philosophy evolve in a logical manner. I've observed more than one trainer supposedly teaching "combat skills" that work great on a pristine range with impossibly blue skys, fluffy white cotton clouds and trees that give beer.

Not so much on Fulton Industrial Drive at 0400 in a rainstorm. :rolleyes:

[Bigguy]

Flip side of that is that I've met folks who have used a firearm to defend themselves and they promptly conclude their toolset and skillset is all one needs. Sample of one and all that. Rather have a non-gunfight guy or gal whose training methods and philosophy evolve in a logical manner. I've observed more than one trainer supposedly teaching "combat skills" that work great on a pristine range with impossibly blue skys, fluffy white cotton clouds and trees that give beer.

Not so much on Fulton Industrial Drive at 0400 in a rainstorm. :rolleyes:
I'd like to know where that range is, and the membership cost. :p

[Al T.]

Bigguy, it's where Jeff Cooper teaches now. ;)

h/t to Pat Rogers.

[Tom Givens]

I’m one of those guys who is too fat to teach. I would like to point out a fallacy I’ve seen come up a couple of times in this thread.

A couple of posters have used words like “never” to describe the odds of using defensive handgun skills, or stated that one is FAR more likely to die of heart disease or stroke than to find himself in a gunfight. I disagree.

About 600,000 people a year die of heart disease in the US (CDC figure). In 2011, 5.8 million people were the victims of violent crime (US DOJ figure). That’s almost 10 times as many people falling victim to violent crime. By the way, that figure only includes four crimes: Murder, Aggravated Assault, Forcible Rape and Robbery. These are precisely the events that we carry guns and train to counter.

I’ve never had a heart attack, but I have had to use a gun to defend myself as a private citizen. I refuse to let whether I live or die be dictated by an illiterate scumbag. That’s why I train and carry.

Violent crime comparison, 2009, source- FBI Uniform Crime Report

City population Violent Crimes Murders Robberies Aggravated Assaults Odds


Memphis 667,421 12,055 132 4,139 7,402 1 in 55
Los Angeles 3,848,776 22,250 312 11,106 9,991 1 in 173
Miami 419,205 4,983 59 2,094 2,765 1 in 84

[TCinVA]

I’m one of those guys who is too fat to teach. I would like to point out a fallacy I’ve seen come up a couple of times in this thread.

A couple of posters have used words like “never” to describe the odds of using defensive handgun skills, or stated that one is FAR more likely to die of heart disease or stroke than to find himself in a gunfight. I disagree.

About 600,000 people a year die of heart disease in the US (CDC figure). In 2011, 5.8 million people were the victims of violent crime (US DOJ figure). That’s almost 10 times as many people falling victim to violent crime. By the way, that figure only includes four crimes: Murder, Aggravated Assault, Forcible Rape and Robbery. These are precisely the events that we carry guns and train to counter.

I’ve never had a heart attack, but I have had to use a gun to defend myself as a private citizen. I refuse to let whether I live or die be dictated by an illiterate scumbag. That’s why I train and carry.

Violent crime comparison, 2009, source- FBI Uniform Crime Report

City population Violent Crimes Murders Robberies Aggravated Assaults Odds


Memphis 667,421 12,055 132 4,139 7,402 1 in 55
Los Angeles 3,848,776 22,250 312 11,106 9,991 1 in 173
Miami 419,205 4,983 59 2,094 2,765 1 in 84

There's a quote in my head that I believe can be attributed to you:

"The reason we don't see more gunfights is because most of the good guys aren't carrying a gun." ...or something to that effect.

[Tamara]

I’ve never had a heart attack, but I have had to use a gun to defend myself as a private citizen. I refuse to let whether I live or die be dictated by an illiterate scumbag.

That touches on another point: If I want to eat myself into an early grave with a creme brulee spoon, that's my business. At no point did I agree to let Joe Scumbag put me there with his gat and I reserve my right to try to stop him, even if he tries to jack me up while I'm on the way to the ER for a coronary.

[TGS]

I’m one of those guys who is too fat to teach. I would like to point out a fallacy I’ve seen come up a couple of times in this thread.

A couple of posters have used words like “never” to describe the odds of using defensive handgun skills, or stated that one is FAR more likely to die of heart disease or stroke than to find himself in a gunfight. I disagree.

About 600,000 people a year die of heart disease in the US (CDC figure). In 2011, 5.8 million people were the victims of violent crime (US DOJ figure). That’s almost 10 times as many people falling victim to violent crime. By the way, that figure only includes four crimes: Murder, Aggravated Assault, Forcible Rape and Robbery. These are precisely the events that we carry guns and train to counter.

I’ve never had a heart attack, but I have had to use a gun to defend myself as a private citizen. I refuse to let whether I live or die be dictated by an illiterate scumbag. That’s why I train and carry.

Violent crime comparison, 2009, source- FBI Uniform Crime Report

City population Violent Crimes Murders Robberies Aggravated Assaults Odds


Memphis 667,421 12,055 132 4,139 7,402 1 in 55
Los Angeles 3,848,776 22,250 312 11,106 9,991 1 in 173
Miami 419,205 4,983 59 2,094 2,765 1 in 84


Well, I see your argument, but realize you're comparing people who've died from heart attacks to people who have not necessarily died, but been a victim of violent crime.

So on that note, how about we place people who've suffered a heart attack, not died, against people who've been a victim of violent crime?

What if we play it your way, but reversed, and compare those who've suffered a heart attack to those who've been murdered? Now how do the results look?

I live/work in one of the most violent cities in the US. Last Friday, we surpassed our previous homicide record (annual)...and it's only August. Our homicide rate is 3.5x the amount of Chicago, the murda' capital of America. We're on track to 1 in 2000 residents of my city being murdered this year (almost double Memphis 2012). It's pretty bad. Yet, even in this hellhole where you're statistically much more likely to be killed than a ISAF member in Afghanistan, we've had many, many more people suffer life-threatening cardiac problems than be murdered. As an EMS supervisor that looks over daily summation/reports of our calls, I can assure you of that.

Go to Averageville, America, and I would be terribly surprised to see violent crimes outrank people suffering heart attacks.......or let's be more accurate, preventable life-threatening medical emergencies.

Then, go ahead and factor in the complications stemming from medical treatment. The hundred thousand people that die annually just from hospital borne infection, for starters. How many people were murdered last year?

Now, just one last thing to point out are the demographics involved in these murders, and where we all fit in to that.

The average person is most certainly much more likely to suffer a preventable medical emergency than be a victim of violent crime. Or, suffer a medical emergency that they don't want to admit to and is extremely time sensitive for treatment, like stroke. Even though I work for one of the best stroke centers in the world, I'll save the stroke awareness spiel. I've rambled long enough. :o

[JodyH]

So I should only take classes taught by gorgeous stud warriors?


That certainly cuts down my list of potential instructors.
I'm gonna need a bigger range.






:cool:

[Mr_White]

That touches on another point: If I want to eat myself into an early grave with a creme brulee spoon, that's my business. At no point did I agree to let Joe Scumbag put me there with his gat and I reserve my right to try to stop him, even if he tries to jack me up while I'm on the way to the ER for a coronary.

Well said.

I am reminded of a favorite fable. Can't remember if this is Aesop or someone else ;) :


Little Tony was sitting on a park bench munching
on one candy bar after another.

After the 6th candy bar, a man on the bench across from him said,
"Son, you know eating all that candy isn't good for you.
It will give you acne, rot your teeth, and make you fat."

Little Tony replied, "My grandfather lived to be 107 years old."

The man asked, "Did your grandfather eat 6 candy bars at a time?"

Little Tony answered, "No, he minded his own ***ing business."

[Tom Givens]

TGS- You're right about a lot of preventable health issues. Hospital borne infections are one reason I stay the Hell away from hospitals. LOL

I object, however, to only using Murder in your comparison. Modern trauma care is what makes Murder relatively rare, not lack of trying by the Bad Guys. In my city we had about 150 homicides last year, but over 7,500 Aggravated Assaults, which are basically botched Murders. The medical center here loses less than 1% of patients who are presented with vital signs, so Murder alone is not a good barometer of violent crime.

Nationwide, an adult's chance of being involved in a violent crime is about 1 in 30 each year. According to the Justice Dept, each US resident has a 1 in 4 chance of being involved in a violent crime in his lifetime. These odds indicate to me that training with a CCW handgun, and actually routinely carrying it, are fairly important.

"Crime is not only a complete disavowal of the social contract, but also a commandeering of the victim's person and liberty. If the individual's dignity lies in the fact that he is a moral agent engaging in actions of his own will, in free exchange with others, then crime always violates the victim's dignity. It is, in fact, an act of enslavement. Your wallet, your purse, or your car may not be worth your life, but your dignity is; and if it is not worth fighting for, it can hardly be said to exist."
-- Jeffrey R. Snyder

[TGS]

I object, however, to only using Murder in your comparison.

The entire point was to point out that you were comparing apples to oranges, i.e. those who died from heart attacks to those who were only victims of violent crime. That's complete misrepresentation, a more fair numbers comparison would have been those who had suffered a heart attack (not just died) to those who were a victim of violent crime.

[Chuck Whitlock]

The entire point was to point out that you were comparing apples to oranges, i.e. those who died from heart attacks to those who were only victims of violent crime. That's complete misrepresentation, a more fair numbers comparison would have been those who had suffered a heart attack (not just died) to those who were a victim of violent crime.

But only if you factor out those caused by genetic or hereditary conditions, and factor in only those caused by poor diet/sedentary lifestyle.

All these uber healthy people are going to be shocked when they eventually die from absolutely nothing. Life IS a sexually transmitted condition that is 100% fatal.

[jetfire]

People are not generally "genetically" predisposed to being morbidly obese. People are genetically predisposed to adding body fat easier, carrying fat in certain areas, or having a harder time converting fat to fuel, things like that. "Genetics" is frequently a crutch used by people to excuse their condition, when a more accurate explanation would be "being healthy is hard work for me."

I have zero problem with people who make an honest decision to pursue whatever lifestyle they want. If someone wants to eat Wendy's Triples until their heart explodes, that's fine with me. But be honest with yourself about it.

Please note I'm not talking about other genetic conditions such as risk of heart disease, certain types of cancer, etc. Those are very real problems for many people, myself included.

[Ed L]

Excellent posts, Mr. Givens.


You are right, people have almost complete control over whether or not they are going to have to deal with a violent encounter (don't be a dirtbag is pretty much the entire plan, followed by don't associate with dirtbags).

We may be talking past each other and not understanding each other, but I don't recall posting anything similar to that in this thread or any other. People can certainly reduce the likelihood of of a violent encounter by avoiding stupid people, stupid places and stupid things, being alert of their surroundings, and certainly by not being a dirtbag. But this is a far cry from having complete control over whether or not you have to deal with a violent encounter.

[Ed L]

To go back to what JLW posted earlier in the thread:


He's accomplished one thing: more people know about him this afternoon than did this morning.

This is very true. Creating an internet buzz does get people talking and get his name out to places where he would otherwise be unknown.

He also alienated many potential students, either because they may be fat, may perceive themselves as fat, or be fans or students of instructors who may be considered fat.

It also seems like a slap in the face that this guy is trying to use this irrelevant issue to position himself above instructors who are far superior to him, have better course material than he does, and are far more experienced.

But he is getting his name out there. Given his past antics, that may be all that matters to him. Perhaps his mother can get do some more reviews of his classes :rolleyes:. Thanks to Byron for pointing out that epic thread elsewhere. I had forgotten about it.

[Chuck Haggard]

Getting one's name known as being a douche seems like a poor marketing plan.

[jetfire]

Getting one's name known as being a douche seems like a poor marketing plan.

The sad truth is that for every person that thinks so and so is a douche because of his article, there is a person thinking "yeah, that's goddamn right!" Positioning yourself at the wide end of the firearms training funnel to take money from the new and gullible is a fairly solid, if skeezy, business plan.

[Chuck Haggard]

As one of my gurus, Vince O'Neill, is fond of saying, "The world is full of charlatans". Sad but true.

[BLR]

You guys need an industry organization. Founded by the more professional minded of the lot.

Kinda like a Professional Engineer. Include continuing education, standards, etc. One of the more important aspects is a board to dole out sanctions. Not that this would stop the anti fat comments, but it potentially could keep out some of the asses.

Just my $0.02 from a fairly disenfranchised student of handguns and shotguns, and to a lesser extent, carbines.

[fixer]

The entire point was to point out that you were comparing apples to oranges, i.e. those who died from heart attacks to those who were only victims of violent crime. That's complete misrepresentation, a more fair numbers comparison would have been those who had suffered a heart attack (not just died) to those who were a victim of violent crime.

I think Mr. Givens was also shedding light on the comparison that was already made in this thread.

[TCinVA]

It also seems like a slap in the face that this guy is trying to use this irrelevant issue to position himself above instructors who are far superior to him, have better course material than he does, and are far more experienced.


Precisely. It's the refuge of the scoundrel.

If I had a family member who needed to learn to protect themselves with a firearm, I'd be sending them to Rangemaster to train with Tom because the impact he's had on his students is dramatic. Over sixty of them have successfully defended themselves by pulling the trigger (and usually hitting what they intended to hit) and doubtless hundreds more have used their firearm in self defense without necessarily pulling the trigger, short circuiting a criminal assault early by having their gun and getting it involved early enough to convince the bad guy he was screwing with the wrong person.

I wouldn't be sending them to beardy-mc-douche on the basis of going through the Pincus Amway shooting program.

And Mr. Givens is dead on about the conventional wisdom on the likelihood of needing a firearm in self defense. I've never been near a heart attack, but I have been at some stage of touching my gun on multiple occasions to deal with people who intended to do me harm, including the attempted robbery a couple of years ago. I've contemplated the use of lethal force more often than I've contemplated the use of lesser force like empty hands. And I make it a habit to avoid stupid places, stupid people, and stupid situations...especially at stupid times of the day. Unfortunately there are enough bad guys out there roaming free that even if you're careful sooner or later you're likely to run across one. When you do, your odds of the encounter ending favorably for you go up dramatically when you have a gun and you're willing to shoot somebody in the face with it should they push the issue.

This is often difficult to capture in statistics because those who have a gun usually don't end up dead, and the overwhelming majority of those killed or seriously injured (even surviving a criminal assault can leave you with permanent damage and expensive rehabilitation...and it's not like the bad guy's insurance is going to cover it) in criminal assaults weren't armed when attacked.

Even in states with shall-issue CCW, relatively few people have permits and of that subset relatively few actually carry all the time. It's more accurate to state that the odds of a bad guy encountering a legally armed good guy on any particular street assault is pretty low...which is why street assaults still happen with such frequency. If 10% of the population started packing a J frame 24/7 tomorrow it would be a whole different statistical ballgame.

[Tamara]

You guys need an industry organization. Founded by the more professional minded of the lot.

Kinda like a Professional Engineer. Include continuing education, standards, etc. One of the more important aspects is a board to dole out sanctions. Not that this would stop the anti fat comments, but it potentially could keep out some of the asses.

The asses already thrive on their carefully-cultivated hard-core outlaw badass images, teaching the things that the square-range dinosaurs won't teach you. This would just give them something else to rebel against in their YouTube ads^H^H^H videos.

[jlw]

You guys need an industry organization. Founded by the more professional minded of the lot.

Kinda like a Professional Engineer. Include continuing education, standards, etc. One of the more important aspects is a board to dole out sanctions. Not that this would stop the anti fat comments, but it potentially could keep out some of the asses.

Just my $0.02 from a fairly disenfranchised student of handguns and shotguns, and to a lesser extent, carbines.

The unintended irony of this post amuses me.

(That's not a jab at the person making the post.)

[NickA]

You guys need an industry organization. Founded by the more professional minded of the lot.

Kinda like a Professional Engineer. Include continuing education, standards, etc. One of the more important aspects is a board to dole out sanctions. Not that this would stop the anti fat comments, but it potentially could keep out some of the asses.

Just my $0.02 from a fairly disenfranchised student of handguns and shotguns, and to a lesser extent, carbines.

If I'm not mistaken there's an effort to do just that, headed by Rob Pincus. Since this thread is about one of his instructors, you can decide how good of a thing that would be :D
I do agree with you in theory, just not sure of the practicality.

[jetfire]

You guys need an industry organization. Founded by the more professional minded of the lot.

Kinda like a Professional Engineer. Include continuing education, standards, etc. One of the more important aspects is a board to dole out sanctions. Not that this would stop the anti fat comments, but it potentially could keep out some of the asses.

Just my $0.02 from a fairly disenfranchised student of handguns and shotguns, and to a lesser extent, carbines.

Tam's right, plus any board powerful enough to hand down reasonable sanctions would be too powerful for my taste.

[BLR]

If I'm not mistaken there's an effort to do just that, headed by Rob Pincus. Since this thread is about one of his instructors, you can decide how good of a thing that would be :D
I do agree with you in theory, just not sure of the practicality.

Pinky is hardly what I would label as "the more professional of the lot."

Like I said, just my $0.02.

[ToddG]

You guys need an industry organization. Founded by the more professional minded of the lot.

Kinda like a Professional Engineer. Include continuing education, standards, etc. One of the more important aspects is a board to dole out sanctions. Not that this would stop the anti fat comments, but it potentially could keep out some of the asses.

I simply don't think it would ever work. First, you'd have to get pretty much all of the nationally recognized guys to join right away. Otherwise, the huge student pools of Cool Guy #1 and BTDT Stud #4 keep right on attending and promoting their heroes' classes, putting a lie to the importance of the proposed organization.

Second, unlike engineering which is generally governed by physics and chemistry and so forth, "shooting" is in large part still based primarily on opinions. When two guys who are retired from the same Tier One unit disagree strongly about the best way to execute skill XYZ, how does any group remain unbiased and still make determinations of the suitability of someone's course syllabus?

Third, most of the big name instructors I know don't engage in any "continuing education" and many of them are pretty vocal about not needing such. I attended a course with one instructor who repeatedly pointed out that he'd never taken any kind of training outside what his small municipal PD had provided. He's an awesome shooter and people line up to get into his classes. Why would he spend $1,000 to attend a class next weekend when he can make $8,000 teaching a class instead?

To be brutally honest, I think if an organization such as the one you're proposing were to exist it would have to be formed not by the instructors but by some truly agnostic shooters/students. Then you'd need to draw enough support from both the student body and the instructor community to make it meaningful.

[Dagga Boy]

I simply don't think it would ever work. First, you'd have to get pretty much all of the nationally recognized guys to join right away. Otherwise, the huge student pools of Cool Guy #1 and BTDT Stud #4 keep right on attending and promoting their heroes' classes, putting a lie to the importance of the proposed organization.

Second, unlike engineering which is generally governed by physics and chemistry and so forth, "shooting" is in large part still based primarily on opinions. When two guys who are retired from the same Tier One unit disagree strongly about the best way to execute skill XYZ, how does any group remain unbiased and still make determinations of the suitability of someone's course syllabus?

Third, most of the big name instructors I know don't engage in any "continuing education" and many of them are pretty vocal about not needing such. I attended a course with one instructor who repeatedly pointed out that he'd never taken any kind of training outside what his small municipal PD had provided. He's an awesome shooter and people line up to get into his classes. Why would he spend $1,000 to attend a class next weekend when he can make $8,000 teaching a class instead?

To be brutally honest, I think if an organization such as the one you're proposing were to exist it would have to be formed not by the instructors but by some truly agnostic shooters/students. Then you'd need to draw enough support from both the student body and the instructor community to make it meaningful.

Unfortunately.......yep. Add in the "Money", "Profit" and "Training as a Business" in the mix, and it's not going to happen. The biggest thing I really miss about training within an organization was the basic fact that I was making the same money, or less, than my peers and students and it was really about spending my time, effort, and money for the true love of teaching and training and the study of gunfighting than a profit motive. Sort of filling the mind and not the wallet. The private sector really throws some wrenches in this stuff.

[David Armstrong]

from YVK:
Last scientific fat paper I read stated that not all fat is being equal, based on considerable variability of outcomes between chubby people. Apparently, size of individual adipose tissue cells makes a lot of difference.
So true, and being overweight does not automatically translate into not being physically fit. When I was denied re-enlistment witht he Army due to being overweight I felt it was rather unfair, as I had just completed the annual physical training test and scored 398 out of a possible 400, and guys that had scored far lower were getting to stay in. And of course take a look at Roy "Big Country" Nelson in the MMA world. These days I'm still overweight but I'm also out of shape.

[David Armstrong]

Getting one's name known as being a douche seems like a poor marketing plan.
Sadly there are at least two well-known and very popular trainers out there that have managed to turn that plan into a great success. Go to jail for fraud, get caught lying about your background, be so personally incompetent that your actions lead to other team members getting killed and so on seems to lead to "I can't wait to take one of his classes" for many people.:mad:


from tam:
The asses already thrive on their carefully-cultivated hard-core outlaw badass images, teaching the things that the square-range dinosaurs won't teach you. This would just give them something else to rebel against in their YouTube ads^H^H^H videos.
QFT.

[jlw]

I have kicked around the idea of a "professional guild" on the local/regional level. The idea would not be to adopt specific standards for tactics but rather a voluntary accrediting body with peer review to attest that members have the background and training to be teaching the classes they teach along with some basic principals of professional standards.

The basic philosophy would be based upon my On Trainer and Training (http://chiefweems.wordpress.com/jurisdictional-georgia/) article. Any claims of awards be professed by instructors would be verified as would any certifications and experience being claimed.

There wouldn't be any sanction for not being part of the guild, but those who were accepted for membership would be able to use it to their advantage.

[JodyH]

When people start talking about professional accreditation and such... I just point out how ineffective the NRA is at policing their instructors.

[Byron]

People are overweight for a number of reasons including genetics, metabolism, bad diet, overeating, no exercise, medicines that make them gain weight, and a combination of these over time.
Given the trend of obesity in the United States, we can pretty easily infer that inherent traits (genetics and metabolism) are far less of a problem than behavioral traits (caloric intake and exercise).

This is not to say that inherent traits do not play an important role, but there is no genetic way to explain the changes we have seen in the U.S.

1962:
Overweight (but not obese): 32% of adults
Obese: 13%
Extremely obese: 1%

Total overweight: 46%

2010:
Overweight (but not obese): 33%
Obese: 36%
Extremely obese: 6%

Total overweight: 75%

(With most of this change taking place between the late 70's and 90's)

Source: http://www.win.niddk.nih.gov/statistics/index.htm#graph7


I object, however, to only using Murder in your comparison. Modern trauma care is what makes Murder relatively rare, not lack of trying by the Bad Guys.
This particular argument works just as well against your point. Modern medicine hasn't just turned murders into aggravated assaults, it has turned many health-related deaths into survivable incidents (or even just "inconveniences").

If you don't want to limit our statistical comparison to murder, health-related issues should also not be constrained to death. To look at the numbers for how often people are raped, robbed, or assaulted, we should also look at all the people who had heart attacks or strokes and survived. Or what about people who have their limbs amputated because they can't get their type 2 diabetes under control? What about cancers that have been correlated to BMI? Organ failures? Clogged arteries that required surgery? These are the "botched murders" of the health world, and when you factor them back in, I'm willing to bet you any amount of money that declaring fat to be more dangerous than crime is not fallacious in the least.


But only if you factor out those caused by genetic or hereditary conditions, and factor in only those caused by poor diet/sedentary lifestyle.
While I understand your point, I think this another one that cuts both ways.

Just as there are healthy people who still die of heart attacks outside of their control, there are über-trained ninjas who still die from incidents outside of their control.

There are no certainties here: we can only play with probabilities. Maintaining a healthy lifestyle is no guarantee of a trouble-free heart, but the evidence clearly shows decreased risk.

Our community, on the other hand, still doesn't have any conclusive evidence showing that firearms training results in a decreased risk of victimization, or an increased rate of success in fighting back. In fact, we have numerous experts (including Mr. Givens) saying that training is far less important than just having a gun: Untrained vs Trained (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9203-Untrained-versus-trained)


Based on my interviews with the winners, I believe the two MOST important factors are:

1. Having your damn gun on you when the event occurs, and
2. Being willing to use it to save your life.

Everything else-- gun model, caliber, ammo choice and Yes, even amount of training, seems to be a distant third after these primary two.

With all of that said, I don't see the controversy in Caleb's original statement that started this side-discussion. He never said training with firearms is dumb. He never said fat people should be kicked out of classes. He never told anyone in particular what they should do with their life. What he said was:

Serious talk for a moment: a lot of people taking defensive firearms training in order to be ready for "the fight" would probably be better off spending that time on a bike or walking or something. Maybe eating one less cheeseburger.

I (and most people) am far more likely to die of a heart attack than I am from a gunfight.
He's clearly speaking in terms of probabilities.

Medical evidence shows that maintaining a healthy weight is correlated with decreased health risks.
No evidence yet shows that firearms training is correlated with decreased risks from violence.*

Caleb's point, that investing time in the former is probably more likely to lengthen one's life, is clearly supported by evidence.

*Before anyone jumps on me, I am not saying that training does nothing. I am simply pointing out the lack of evidence.

[ffhounddog]

Well skinny jeans and being a hipster then I will have to question their training style.

[jlw]

When people start talking about professional accreditation and such... I just point out how ineffective the NRA is at policing their instructors.


That's one of the issues I address in the article. Some guy gets an NRA Basic Pistol Instructor cert and then runs around teaching anti-pirate courses.

[Hatchetman]

. . . I just point out how ineffective the NRA is at policing their instructors.

Was just talking with someone who, shall we say, works on Waples Mills who told me they are getting ready for an instructor putsch, albeit one where they'll be dumping folks who haven't taught at least one NRA course in the previous year. My guess is the NRA instructors who are teaching pirate courses will now be teaching one First Steps class a year to keep current, so likely only the patch collectors will be impacted.

[NEPAKevin]

A guy I used to work with liked to say "you have to wonder about a man who would criticize another man for building a shed to cover his best tool." I have to wonder about an instructor who chooses to criticize his competition while at the same time potentially alienating around half his potential clientele rather than saying what is better about his service.

[JodyH]

Was just talking with someone who, shall we say, works on Waples Mills who told me they are getting ready for an instructor putsch, albeit one where they'll be dumping folks who haven't taught at least one NRA course in the previous year. My guess is the NRA instructors who are teaching pirate courses will now be teaching one First Steps class a year to keep current, so likely only the patch collectors will be impacted.
So instead of weeding out the morons, they're just going to weed out the people who don't go all in on the "Mary Kay" class in a box they sell.
Some of the worst NRA instructors i've met do primarily NRA courses and own all the "made in China" NRA instructor swag.

[Tamara]

Well skinny jeans and being a hipster then I will have to question their training style.

I was hating on hipsters before it was cool.

[Nephrology]

Typical instructor's definition of the ideal instructor: what he sees in the mirror every morning. Maybe I should write a blog post about how instructors with two kidneys aren't taking hardcore survival seriously. :cool:

You and I should consider going into business together...

[Ed L]

Getting one's name known as being a douche seems like a poor marketing plan.

I'm sure the guy and a friend was sitting around, trying to think up a marketing strategy that would cause a buzz on and get people talking at the far ends of the gunternet where he was previously an unknown:

The conversation *could* have gone something like this:

Guy One: "Hey, I know; let's claim that we are teaching the things that the gun school mafia doesn't want people to know."

Guy Two: "Nice idea, Fredo, but someone is already doing that."

Guy One: "Then lets have a photographer downrange and have a shoothouse where the whole class rushes in at one time without proper armor or supervision."

Guy Two: "Already being done."

Guy One: "I got it. Let's start a campaign attacking fat guys. I mean everyone who has a higher body mass index than me."

Guy Two(speaking in a Gilbert Godfrey voice): "That's brilliant! Attacking fat guys! We'll have more students than we'll know what to do with."

[smells like feet]

I have a contrary view to many on this thread.

If you are teaching something that touches on "self defence" it negatively impacts your credability if you look like sack of poo who can't defend himself from anything.

Sorry...I know it's unfair, but it's how the world works.

Looking unkempt, dressing poorly, carrying yourself in a slovenly manner or being obese will get you judged everywhere, it's a often a career limiting thing in many industries...why would the shooting instruction world be any different.

[TCinVA]

Looking unkempt, dressing poorly, carrying yourself in a slovenly manner or being obese will get you judged everywhere, it's a often a career limiting thing in many industries...why would the shooting instruction world be any different.

I have very different expectations from a movie starring Charlize Theron than I do for learning, say, chemistry or mathematics or self defense.

If I'm paying 10 bucks to see Charlize Theron naked on a huge screen, I'm looking for the visuals.

If I'm paying $150 bucks a credit hour for a chemistry or math class (or $500 for a pistol class) I'm looking for someone who understands the material and can relate it to me in a manner I understand. One of the best teachers I ever had was barely over 5 feet tall, was shaped like a bowling pin, and had glasses so thick he had to hold papers up to his face to read (legally blind and unable to drive) but he forgot more about chemistry than most will ever know and when he explained how covalent bonds worked you remember it for the rest of your life.

Sure, some people make snap judgments based on appearances and aren't willing to see past them. That's human nature. It's also stupid.

Jim Cirillo had a bit of a belly before he died. I would be a grade A moron to look at Jim Cirillo and come to the conclusion "Well, he's got a gut. Obviously he can't teach me anything about self defense."

[smells like feet]

I am not saying it's fair, and I am not saying that appearence is not something that can't be overcome by being otherwise completely freaking awesome.

But once again...life ain't fair, and in particular the business world is not fair.

Marketing, branding and look is critical, and IMHO asking the question "is my look something that's an asset, or something that needs to be overcome in order to connect with potential customers" is something that people should ask...and they may be cheating themselves of commercial success if they don't ask it.


I have very different expectations from a movie starring Charlize Theron than I do for learning, say, chemistry or mathematics or self defense.

If I'm paying 10 bucks to see Charlize Theron naked on a huge screen, I'm looking for the visuals.

If I'm paying $150 bucks a credit hour for a chemistry or math class (or $500 for a pistol class) I'm looking for someone who understands the material and can relate it to me in a manner I understand. One of the best teachers I ever had was barely over 5 feet tall, was shaped like a bowling pin, and had glasses so thick he had to hold papers up to his face to read (legally blind and unable to drive) but he forgot more about chemistry than most will ever know and when he explained how covalent bonds worked you remember it for the rest of your life.

Sure, some people make snap judgments based on appearances and aren't willing to see past them. That's human nature. It's also stupid.

Jim Cirillo had a bit of a belly before he died. I would be a grade A moron to look at Jim Cirillo and come to the conclusion "Well, he's got a gut. Obviously he can't teach me anything about self defense."

[Tamara]

it's a often a career limiting thing in many industries...

That's true. In many industries people will judge your abilities and the quality of information you possess based on your choice of hair care products. Why should consumers in the firearms training industry be any less of a pack of ignorant kittentards than those in other sectors of the economy?

Hell, Taurus sells every Judge they make, so let's not go into the finely-honed judgement skills of consumers in this industry.

[Hatchetman]

Marketing, branding and look is critical, and IMHO asking the question "is my look something that's an asset, or something that needs to be overcome in order to connect with potential customers" is something that people should ask...and they may be cheating themselves of commercial success if they don't ask it.

Marketing et al is also a two edged sword. A significant portion of the entry end of the market is terrified of looking stupid in front of a roomful of people and so AVOID classes where they fear their ignorance will be exposed and ridiculed. I know 'cause I get 'em through my basic class, they thank me for being my golly gee whiz gregarious self, and then go out an tell their friends to sign up, despite the fact I'll never be mistaken for a GQ android. High speed 5.11 studs scare many prospective students via their studly branding effort.

The market has many facets, you make the best of the hand you're dealt, and if you find some unique way to bring 'em in it becomes the marketing ploy everyone else tries to steal. Indeed, if there was only one way of doing this stuff it wouldn't be a market 'cause we'd all be selling the same thing the same way. This new kid on the block is welcome to try his no fatties allowed marketing ploy and maybe earn some buzz off it. My guess is he won't see enough of a return, however, to inspire others to follow suit which, if so, says all one needs to know about this particular marketing effort.

[Tamara]

Hatchetman,

Fitshot.

[Chuck Haggard]

Jim Cirillo had a bit of a belly before he died. I would be a grade A moron to look at Jim Cirillo and come to the conclusion "Well, he's got a gut. Obviously he can't teach me anything about self defense.




I thought of that when I first started reading this thread. Jim was a bit overweight the first time I met him, had several health issues, and couldn't move at much more than a walk. However, comma, his was stories and jokes alone were worth the price of the class, let alone the lessons learned and drills he ran us through, and even in his 70s and dealing with macular degeneration he could hit pop cans off hand with an N frame, from 75 yards.

[Slavex]

I'm fat and working on it (bringing it down that is) just over 300lbs right now (cue shock and awe), down from 320 two weeks ago. My classes, now up to twice a week, have on average since January been 20 people a class for 3 hours of training. Most of them know I'm fat as my advertising emails often include me shooting drills, or stages at match, including my kitten ups too. If people aren't coming because they see a fat, pierced and fanged dude being the instructor, I'm fine with that. It sure hasn't hurt things for me. But maybe the shock value is what drags them in??? I get great feedback from civilians, law enforcement and military students, enough so that I get invited to teach private classes for the last two on occasion. Maybe it's because I don't talk about all the jumps I've done and rooms I've kicked and and tangos I've zipped that I hear from these guys (the numbers would amaze you, simply multiply any number you can imagine, by zero, and that's the number of those I've done...).
Of those successful instructors who may be slightly to seriously overweight I bet we do run the full gamut of great to horrible instructors, just as we do with the crossfit type guys. I've seen enough in my limited exposure to automatically be skeptical of the super fit dude in the tight UA shirt with armor on, who can run like a deer and talk like a sideshow carny. Maybe he's good, maybe he blows.

[ffhounddog]

Slavex,

That is a two edge sword when you talk about military experience. More than once instructors whom might have inflated their resumes in the past have been called out on XYZ from others who knew them in the service at one time. You can also tell the truth we and someone on the internet will still say you are lying because of what he or she thinks they know.

I would rather take a class with an instructor that knows how to teach than one who has been to all the hotspots in the world killing bad guys but cannot convey that knowledge to others.

This has been a good discussion I have enjoyed reading it.

ffh

[fixer]

Marketing et al is also a two edged sword. A significant portion of the entry end of the market is terrified of looking stupid in front of a roomful of people and so AVOID classes where they fear their ignorance will be exposed and ridiculed. I know 'cause I get 'em through my basic class, they thank me for being my golly gee whiz gregarious self, and then go out an tell their friends to sign up, despite the fact I'll never be mistaken for a GQ android. High speed 5.11 studs scare many prospective students via their studly branding effort.
.

Excellent point.

[ToddG]

The idea would not be to adopt specific standards for tactics but rather a voluntary accrediting body with peer review to attest that members have the background and training to be teaching the classes they teach along with some basic principals of professional standards.
(emphasis added)

And that's where you're going to run into trouble. Who decides which instructors' backgrounds are blessed and which are not? It's very difficult drawing a bright line for that. Some of the best "tactical" advice I ever got as a new shooter came from guys who had never been LE/mil but understood the proper concepts and knew how to present them to students. Some of the worst "tactical" training I've ever seen was being performed by guys with years of experience on full-time tactical teams.

I'm all for the idea of a professional organization. I just don't see a solid way to discriminate qualified instructors from unqualified without throwing the net too wide.


Some of the worst NRA instructors i've met do primarily NRA courses and own all the "made in China" NRA instructor swag.

Yup. I'm pretty unhappy about this change, too.


You and I should consider going into business together...

Two men and a little kidney...


Looking unkempt, dressing poorly, carrying yourself in a slovenly manner or being obese will get you judged everywhere, it's a often a career limiting thing in many industries...why would the shooting instruction world be any different.

You and I must have gone to different colleges. The professors I had rarely looked athletic, fashionable, etc. They were hired because they were leaders in their field.

I don't care if my personal trainer is a good shooter any more than I care whether my shooting coach is a PT stud.


A significant portion of the entry end of the market is terrified of looking stupid in front of a roomful of people and so AVOID classes where they fear their ignorance will be exposed and ridiculed.

Yup. Jay Cunningham really hit on a great program when he designed some of his classes around this need. The normal gap between the typical bare minimum CCW accreditation class and the typical "level 1" tactical pistol class is enormous.

[jlw]

(emphasis added)

And that's where you're going to run into trouble. Who decides which instructors' backgrounds are blessed and which are not? It's very difficult drawing a bright line for that. Some of the best "tactical" advice I ever got as a new shooter came from guys who had never been LE/mil but understood the proper concepts and knew how to present them to students. Some of the worst "tactical" training I've ever seen was being performed by guys with years of experience on full-time tactical teams.



I'm not talking about any sort of body with the power to sanction. I'm talking about a group of instructors deciding on a set of standards and that verifies credentials. If a prospective member wants to be part of the group, then they adhere to those standards. If not, so be it. There's no penalty or sanction for not being a member.

[ToddG]

I'm not talking about any sort of body with the power to sanction. I'm talking about a group of instructors deciding on a set of standards and that verifies credentials. If a prospective member wants to be part of the group, then they adhere to those standards. If not, so be it. There's no penalty or sanction for not being a member.

I get that. It's not like you could have the power to stop other people from teaching. My point is that for an organization to be successful outside of a "me and mine" type thing, it's going to run head first into credentialing problems.

[BigT]

I find it difficult to take anyone from an orginisation that believes the dude watching the dashcam footage has more valuable experience than the star of said dashcam footage seriously.

[Mr_White]

Was just talking with someone who, shall we say, works on Waples Mills who told me they are getting ready for an instructor putsch, albeit one where they'll be dumping folks who haven't taught at least one NRA course in the previous year. My guess is the NRA instructors who are teaching pirate courses will now be teaching one First Steps class a year to keep current, so likely only the patch collectors will be impacted.


So instead of weeding out the morons, they're just going to weed out the people who don't go all in on the "Mary Kay" class in a box they sell.
Some of the worst NRA instructors i've met do primarily NRA courses and own all the "made in China" NRA instructor swag.


Yup. I'm pretty unhappy about this change, too.

Do any of you guys have any more information on this or know where I can find it? They are really going to revoke the instructor certifications of NRA-certified instructors who don't teach actual NRA classes?

[jlw]

I get that. It's not like you could have the power to stop other people from teaching. My point is that for an organization to be successful outside of a "me and mine" type thing, it's going to run head first into credentialing problems.

And I'm okay with that.

[Hatchetman]

Do any of you guys have any more information on this or know where I can find it? They are really going to revoke the instructor certifications of NRA-certified instructors who don't teach actual NRA classes?

Nothing official, but I've encountered a couple perturbations in the force. Person I was chatting with informally is in the right place to hear about this stuff. Another person in a position to know states that they will no longer be minting Master Training Counselors. These disparate strands suggest to me something is brewing in the training department. It will be interesting to see how this impacts NRA qualed instructors offering non-NRA classes that are then used to satisfy the CCW requirements of some states.

[Wendell]

The topic of common training standards was raised in Memphis this past March; it quickly devolved into a debate of "cold" vs. "hot".


...any board powerful enough to hand down reasonable sanctions would be too powerful for my taste.

x2

Let the customer decide.

[Hatchetman]

Hatchetman,

Fitshot.

Been trying to riddle out what "Fitshot" is, but then found 'em on Facebook. Yes, a stay at home mom wanting options should she encounter a feral dog or other predator while pushing her perambulator would likely take one look at that testosterone oozing lot and decide she didn't need to train that badly. Some gun shop sleazeball could then sell her a Judge, which, I understand, is good for snakes too.

Make no mistake, I preach an integrated approach to self defense and indeed have a small martial arts equipped gym next to the classroom where I teach. During class breaks I'll invite folks to check it out, and usually rock one of the heavy bags a wee bit during the demo. The purpose isn't to connote that one must obtain olympian fitness heights to play in the self defense sandbox, rather it's to suggest that if the 56 year old guy with more than a paunch can cause a heavy bag to think about folding into a U with his right Thai kick, maybe you can too.

Most folks are searching for magic beans so I don't see many CCW students doing more than take the free intro combatives class, but I'd bet I'm more likely to get the folks coming though my CCW class to think about it than some buff operator or wannabe sporting a six pack through his Under Armour would under the same circumstances as I frame things in a more obtainable manner.