Troy Industries hires anti-gun, cowardly political hack Jody Weis as an instructor

[tmoore912]

http://www.gunssavelife.com/?p=8842


Troy Industries announced in recent days the hiring of Jody Weis, the former anti-gun head of Chicago PD, as an instructor with their training division, “Troy Asymmetric”.

Imagine that: A high-profile firearms and firearms accessory manufacturer hiring a raving anti-gun political hack and touting it to the world! Even worse, hiring a coward at that.

Why do we say Jody Weis is a coward?

Because he ran from the sound of gunfire, post haste, when shots erupted as he was winding down a press conference in Chicago during his stint as police superintendent. It was so blatant that the officers at Chicago PD gave him a new nickname: J-Fled.

WTF was Troy thinking when they hired this guy? Did anyone do any due diligence on him? Evidently not.


They have already fired him. Duh!

[Kyle Reese]

Due diligence pays off.....

[LittleLebowski]

I didn't see the part about firing him but even hiring him is just amazing..... Mind boggling.

[Eternal24k]

I didn't see the part about firing him but even hiring him is just amazing..... Mind boggling.

Agreed...

I would love to just hear what both parties had to say about that decision

[LittleLebowski]

Looking at their instructors, it seems that being over 50 and retired LE is a seeming prerequisite.

[jlw]

That is a shame. It rates up there with a rifle stock company hiring a former sniper involved in multiple controversial incidents resulting in a multimillion dollar payout.

[Byron]

It rates up there with a rifle stock company hiring a former sniper involved in multiple controversial incidents resulting in a multimillion dollar payout.
That was the first thing that popped into my mind as well.

[Sparks2112]

That was the first thing that popped into my mind as well.

No kitten.

[jwoods1099]

Earlier today we announced that Jody Weis will not be joining the Troy Asymmetric cadre of instructors.

Mr. Weis has no affiliation with Troy Asymmetric or any of its affiliated companies. It was the intention of Troy Asymmetric to retain him as a contract employee for government-specific programs. Troy Industries had no knowledge of Mr. Weis’ political leanings or stance on the Second Amendment as we are not involved in Chicago politics.

Troy has consistently put its money where its mouth is demonstrating a firm belief of the individual’s right to bear arms. Troy has turned away tens of millions of dollars in business from a sporting goods retailer who did not support our individual rights following the Newtown tragedy. Troy is the only firearms manufacturer to take this ethical stance on the Second Amendment.

Our immediate actions today re-affirm our commitment to the fundamental individual right to bear arms.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Troy is the only firearms manufacturer to take this ethical stance on the Second Amendment.

For reals?

[jlw]

So they don't research the guy and now are trying to turn it into some sort of lone wolf ethical stand...

[Lon]

Troy has consistently put its money where its mouth is demonstrating a firm belief of the individual’s right to bear arms. Troy has turned away tens of millions of dollars in business from a sporting goods retailer who did not support our individual rights following the Newtown tragedy.

Must be talking about their Dick's Sporting Goods deal.

[TCinVA]

That is a shame. It rates up there with a rifle stock company hiring a former sniper involved in multiple controversial incidents resulting in a multimillion dollar payout.

If what I'm seeing is true, Troy also hired that guy's partner.

Oops.

[LOKNLOD]

That is a shame. It rates up there with a rifle stock company hiring a former sniper involved in multiple controversial incidents resulting in a multimillion dollar payout.

Like this guy (http://www.gunssavelife.com/?p=8860)?

ETA: TC beat me while I was hunting for the link.

[LittleLebowski]

If what I'm seeing is true, Troy also hired that guy's partner.

Oops.

Always double down.

[Nephrology]

Earlier today we announced that Jody Weis will not be joining the Troy Asymmetric cadre of instructors.

Mr. Weis has no affiliation with Troy Asymmetric or any of its affiliated companies. It was the intention of Troy Asymmetric to retain him as a contract employee for government-specific programs. Troy Industries had no knowledge of Mr. Weis’ political leanings or stance on the Second Amendment as we are not involved in Chicago politics.

Troy has consistently put its money where its mouth is demonstrating a firm belief of the individual’s right to bear arms. Troy has turned away tens of millions of dollars in business from a sporting goods retailer who did not support our individual rights following the Newtown tragedy. Troy is the only firearms manufacturer to take this ethical stance on the Second Amendment.

Our immediate actions today re-affirm our commitment to the fundamental individual right to bear arms.

Methinks the lady doth protest too much....

[jwoods1099]

I wonder how Dale Monroe or Jody Weis affect how Troy Industries products work..... my stuff works just fine and I don't feel the need to get out the pitchforks or round up the lynch mob. I could jump on the bandwagon but I refuse to join into the hype, I am a gun owner and proud of it, I am able to purchase whatever products I choose to. Do I support Troy Industries....YES, do I have an opinion on what is going on....YES but I thought this forum was about people coming together to talk about their love of guns and who are passionate about their INDIVIDUAL RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. I think that we are here to offer up good knowledge, support and information about GUNS, HARDWARE and GUNS again. I doubt any single one of you on here are perfect myself included. We all have our crosses to bear, I have no personal agenda to sway people one way or another. I am normally quiet and I just stay below the radar, but I feel we need to get back to the REAL reason why we are ALL here, to talk about GUNS and SHOOTING THEM not sitting in the basement and stroking them. I want each and everyone of you that is able to go to the range this weekend, dig out that safe queen and SHOOT IT. Have a good time at the range. It is very easy to hide behind the keyboard and fire shots at people, we all know that it is true. For those that know me personally, this is very rare that do more than read on this forum. I am not pointing fingers, I am simply asking for all of to remember why we joined this site.

[LittleLebowski]

I wonder how Dale Monroe or Jody Weis affect how Troy Industries products work..... my stuff works just fine and I don't feel the need to get out the pitchforks or round up the lynch mob. I could jump on the bandwagon but I refuse to join into the hype, I am a gun owner and proud of it, I am able to purchase whatever products I choose to. Do I support Troy Industries....YES, do I have an opinion on what is going on....YES but I thought this forum was about people coming together to talk about their love of guns and who are passionate about their INDIVIDUAL RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. I think that we are here to offer up good knowledge, support and information about GUNS, HARDWARE and GUNS again. I doubt any single one of you on here are perfect myself included. We all have our crosses to bear, I have no personal agenda to sway people one way or another. I am normally quiet and I just stay below the radar, but I feel we need to get back to the REAL reason why we are ALL here, to talk about GUNS and SHOOTING THEM not sitting in the basement and stroking them. I want each and everyone of you that is able to go to the range this weekend, dig out that safe queen and SHOOT IT. Have a good time at the range. It is very easy to hide behind the keyboard and fire shots at people, we all know that it is true. For those that know me personally, this is very rare that do more than read on this forum. I am not pointing fingers, I am simply asking for all of to remember why we joined this site.

Paragraphs, please :)

[TCinVA]

but I feel we need to get back to the REAL reason why we are ALL here, to talk about GUNS and SHOOTING THEM

This is much harder to do once they've been banned...so seeing that we deny any sort of support to those who seek to have them banned is probably a good thing. We all like shooting.

...especially when we can go to the gun store and buy whatever we like and then take it to the range. It's much less enjoyable when loading 8 rounds in a magazine can catch you a felony charge.

[Kyle Reese]

Jwoods1099,

You need to disclose industry affiliation, in accordance with the Forum Rules (http://pistol-forum.com/misc.php?do=showrules).

Please do so.

[ToddG]

I am not pointing fingers, I am simply asking for all of to remember why we joined this site.

I believe that discussing companies and their stance on 2A issues is well within the forum charter. Clearly the instant issue wasn't so small or unimportant because Troy did, in fact, react quickly and decisively when customer outcry became clear. If Smith & Wesson hired Bill Clinton as its new CEO, we'd discuss it here. :cool:

[Hatchetman]

I wonder how Dale Monroe or Jody Weis affect how Troy Industries products work..... my stuff works just fine and I don't feel the need to get out the pitchforks or round up the lynch mob. I could jump on the bandwagon but I refuse to join into the hype, I am a gun owner and proud of it, I am able to purchase whatever products I choose to. Do I support Troy Industries....YES, do I have an opinion on what is going on....YES but I thought this forum was about people coming together to talk about their love of guns and who are passionate about their INDIVIDUAL RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. I think that we are here to offer up good knowledge, support and information about GUNS, HARDWARE and GUNS again. I doubt any single one of you on here are perfect myself included. We all have our crosses to bear, I have no personal agenda to sway people one way or another. I am normally quiet and I just stay below the radar, but I feel we need to get back to the REAL reason why we are ALL here, to talk about GUNS and SHOOTING THEM not sitting in the basement and stroking them. I want each and everyone of you that is able to go to the range this weekend, dig out that safe queen and SHOOT IT. Have a good time at the range. It is very easy to hide behind the keyboard and fire shots at people, we all know that it is true. For those that know me personally, this is very rare that do more than read on this forum. I am not pointing fingers, I am simply asking for all of to remember why we joined this site.

Out of curiosity, just what do you expect this assemblage of presumption, non sequiturs, and hyperbole to accomplish? I guess it's a little more creative than saying "nothing to see here, move along," but I doubt it'll convince anyone not to call Troy Industry's damnfoolishness by its true name.

[Josh Runkle]

I still want a trunk monkey.

[Sparks2112]

I am simply asking for all of to remember why we joined this site.

I'm pretty sure the rest of us didn't join the site with the intention of defending an action that really isn't defensible all the while thinking we'd be too dumb to notice? Kind of like we'd be too dumb to notice you hiring a raging anti-gunner? So what you're saying is you think your customers are dumb? Also I'm pretty sure your relationship with Dick's ended because they were selling your rifles at a price point that you deemed to be too low, thereby undervaluing the brand, though I guess you'd know better than I would. My father picked one up for about $900 bucks I want to say? Not a bad rifle after we properly staked the gas key. I can see where you wouldn't have had time to properly assemble your rifle what with the panic and all....oh wait, he bought it in November, your QC guy must have just called in sick that day I guess.

Anyway, thanks for giving me something extra to talk about this Sunday. I think I'll explain the general issue, and then detail this conversation verbatim maybe? Don't worry, I only get about 20,000 listeners each show, which is really just a drop in the bucket compared to the number of people you've already alienated. I'll do my part though.

Please, say something else stupid, I dare you.

ETA: Smile, you're on Facebook.

[ToddG]

Please keep the ad hominem out of the thread, gentlemen.

[LHS]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1234173_10153168803015534_1273208143_n.jpg

[klewis]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1234173_10153168803015534_1273208143_n.jpg

I snarfed hard cider out my nose. Thank you.

[EMC]

Also I'm pretty sure your relationship with Dick's ended because they were selling your rifles at a price point that you deemed to be too low, thereby undervaluing the brand, though I guess you'd know better than I would.

Here's a link where Troy explains what happened to the Dick's contract. This seems to contradict the statement that Troy initiated the contract termination:

http://kitup.military.com/2012/12/statement-troy-industries-dicks.html

[Sparks2112]

Here's a link where Troy explains what happened to the Dick's contract. This seems to contradict the statement that Troy initiated the contract termination:

http://kitup.military.com/2012/12/statement-troy-industries-dicks.html

Even better.

[Byron]

There's a lot more to public relations than just firing a guy. Registering here to tell everyone they shouldn't be upset is not one of the strategies most people would suggest.


I wonder how Dale Monroe or Jody Weis affect how Troy Industries products work
I don't think anyone is suddenly claiming that Troy Industry products are substandard, or that they will disintegrate with use. Rather -- and I would have thought this would be quite obvious -- people in this community like to "vote with their wallets" when they don't agree with the actions, positions, or affiliations of a company. Since Troy wants to give Monroe (and previously Weis) a paycheck, some people no longer want to give you their paycheck.

Again, I think this is pretty obvious. Trying to frame it as if people are questioning the quality of Troy products themselves is misdirection.


I don't feel the need to get out the pitchforks or round up the lynch mob.
Well....... yea..... the mob is mad at you, so I'm not surprised you wouldn't want to hand them pitchforks.


I could jump on the bandwagon but I refuse to join into the hype
Again, I don't understand why I should have to explain such a basic concept of PR, but people generally don't react well to their concerns being called "hype." In fact, such comments can undo any good will potentially earned by firing Weis.

Just like, "I'm sorry I hit you," is a lot more soothing than, "Yea, I hit you, but I'm not hitting you now, and you're overreacting."


I thought this forum was about people coming together to talk about their love of guns and who are passionate about their INDIVIDUAL RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. I think that we are here to offer up good knowledge, support and information about GUNS, HARDWARE and GUNS again.
Um... you just registered at this site within the last 48 hours in a failing effort at damage control. Don't you think it a bit presumptuous to wade into a new community and then tell them what they should and should not be talking about? And what's this "we are here" nonsense? You weren't here. You haven't come here to talk about GUNS, HARDWARE and GUNS before.


I doubt any single one of you on here are perfect myself included. We all have our crosses to bear
You're trying the "he who is without sin" strategy? Good luck with that.


I have no personal agenda to sway people one way or another.
Seriously? You directly stand to lose money if people buy fewer Troy products, and you're clearly trying to sway people.


I am normally quiet and I just stay below the radar, but I feel we need to get back to the REAL reason why we are ALL here, to talk about GUNS and SHOOTING THEM not sitting in the basement and stroking them.
Please refer back to my previous points about the fact that you just showed up here, and the audacity of telling a community what they are supposed to be discussing.

Also, the sitting in the basement line is nice. Let me amend my earlier caricature of your position, "Yea, I hit you, but I'm not hitting you now, and you're overreacting. Besides, you shouldn't be talking about me hitting you and you'll probably go home and touch yourself in your mama's basement tonight."


I am simply asking for all of to remember why we joined this site.
See previous points, yadda yadda yadda

[LittleLebowski]

Earlier today we announced that Jody Weis will not be joining the Troy Asymmetric cadre of instructors.

Mr. Weis has no affiliation with Troy Asymmetric or any of its affiliated companies. It was the intention of Troy Asymmetric to retain him as a contract employee for government-specific programs. Troy Industries had no knowledge of Mr. Weis’ political leanings or stance on the Second Amendment as we are not involved in Chicago politics.

Troy has consistently put its money where its mouth is demonstrating a firm belief of the individual’s right to bear arms. Troy has turned away tens of millions of dollars in business from a sporting goods retailer who did not support our individual rights following the Newtown tragedy. Troy is the only firearms manufacturer to take this ethical stance on the Second Amendment.

Our immediate actions today re-affirm our commitment to the fundamental individual right to bear arms.

Are you affiliated with Troy?

[rjohnson4405]

Dangit, I bought a Troy rifle last year from DSG, and then boycotted DSG because of their 2A stance.

Now I have to boycott Troy for their 2A stance.

[Byron]

Looks like jwoods is just copy/pasting these exact same replies across the 'net. Example: http://dirtydozensbunker.com/showpost.php?p=958498&postcount=10
That's disappointing. I thought there was at least some chance that jwood would bring some real answers here, but it now seems quite unlikely that will happen.

I don't understand how the firearm industry is so incapable of learning from the mistakes of others. In just the past few years we've seen personalities, manufacturers, publications, and organizations all stepping in various messes. It seems that 9 times out of 10, one of these god-awful PR campaigns is started ("Hey, let's blast everyone with copy/paste messages! That will persuade them!"). Heels dig in. People just get more frustrated. The Streisand effect ensures that word only spreads farther. And then when all the smoke clears, there's all this collateral damage that could have easily been avoided.

By the way, the whole "we are not involved in Chicago politics" argument is a hilarious excuse. Are we to believe that no one even did a basic Google search on Weis before hiring him? What year are we living in? It seems that internet daters investigate their partners more than Troy investigates someone who is going to represent their name. (Though I guess us gun-stroking basement-dwellers do have more time on our hands.)

[khufford]

Speaking of the Dick's deal... I made the terrible mistake of ordering some of your rifles after that whole thing exploded, at the higher price point... They're still sitting in my back room. Distributors recently dropped the price $100 below what I paid, so I dropped them $100 and they still don't sell...

I have a hard time recommending that my customers buy anything made by a company whose values aren't in line with the average gun owner. I guess I will just cost them out and get my $$ back out of them and never order them again (wasn't going to anyway since they aren't moving, but definitely won't consider it now). We already put all our Troy Battle Mags in the $10 value bin to try and get rid of those and as much as I like your backup irons (I have a set on my personal DDM4V5) I guess we'll be looking into alternatives to those as well.

You made your bed, Troy. Time to lie in it.

Kyle

[LittleLebowski]

Looks like jwoods is just copy/pasting these exact same replies across the 'net. Example: http://dirtydozensbunker.com/showpost.php?p=958498&postcount=10
That's disappointing. I thought there was at least some chance that jwood would bring some real answers here, but it now seems quite unlikely that will happen.



Interesting.

[Webb297]

Interesting.

In that same thread he clearly argues as if he is on staff at Troy.

http://dirtydozensbunker.com/showpost.php?p=958492&postcount=9

[Chuck Haggard]

Why is the official statement never; "We kittened up, big time. Learning has occurred. Sorry about that, we will be more careful in the future. Thanks to the many people who brought this important issue to our attention".

I'd have a lot of respect for something like that.

[JV_]

It looks like Troy Asymmetric cleaned out all of their blog entries, recently. Luckily, Google cached them:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3WGPbus2pkAJ:troyasymmetric.com/blog/

They also removed the link to their Instructors page.

ETA: As as result of their web site purge, they have a lot of bad links on their FB page. Doh!

[JMS]

Weis should consider a spa day...

http://speaker7.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/firemarshallbill.jpg?w=640

[Nephrology]

I am grateful to belong to a community that self-polices as aggressively as this one. It is a necessity in order to keep rotten apples from ruining the bushel, as it were; if only other industries would behave similarly.

Why, imagine if Congress as as interested in the moral integrity of their fellow members!

[Tamara]

Just like, "I'm sorry I hit you," is a lot more soothing than, "Yea, I hit you, but I'm not hitting you now, and you're overreacting."

Awesome line noted for future plagiarizing... :cool:

[LHS]

I'm considerably more irritated by the transparent attempt to infiltrate an astroturfer to whitewash their mistake than I am of the mistake itself. I could have bought an ignorance or poor due diligence excuse. Now I'm more inclined to think Troy doesn't respect their customers or our rights.

The first rule of holes is STOP DIGGING.

[Sparks2112]

I'm considerably more irritated by the transparent attempt to infiltrate an astroturfer to whitewash their mistake than I am of the mistake itself. I could have bought an ignorance or poor due diligence excuse. Now I'm more inclined to think Troy doesn't respect their customers or our rights.

The first rule of holes is STOP DIGGING.

You should listen this Sunday...

[TCinVA]

I'm considerably more irritated by the transparent attempt to infiltrate an astroturfer to whitewash their mistake than I am of the mistake itself. I could have bought an ignorance or poor due diligence excuse. Now I'm more inclined to think Troy doesn't respect their customers or our rights.

The first rule of holes is STOP DIGGING.

Seems they've decided they're going to keep on the guy who said he would have taken the shot on Vicki Weaver...public outcry be kittened.

I don't think that's a wise move, personally.

[Sparks2112]

Seems they've decided they're going to keep on the guy who said he would have taken the shot on Vicki Weaver...public outcry be kittened.

I don't think that's a wise move, personally.

I'm very angry that I can't use their sights anymore.

[jlw]

I for one wish that Sparks2112 would quit beating around the bush and would let us know how he really feels on this matter...

[Tamara]

Seems they've decided they're going to keep on the guy who said he would have taken the shot on Vicki Weaver...public outcry be kittened.

The shot in question was not fired at Mrs. Weaver, but at Kevin Harris. (Not that that necessarily makes it any better.)

[ToddG]

Without getting dragged too far into these weeds, I'll simply comment that we're all happy to believe the extraordinary version of events when it fits into our political narrative (Horiuchi) but we're quick to point out the falsehoods when it doesn't (Zimmerman).

I've sat at a conference table and talked guns with Lon Horiuchi. He's a devout Christian and completely in support of private citizens' 2nd Amendment rights. The incident in ID -- which is far more complex than people appreciate -- was tragic but certainly doesn't prove malice.

[Sparks2112]

I for one wish that Sparks2112 would quit beating around the bush and would let us know how he really feels on this matter...

Oh did you catch that? :)

[Sparks2112]

Without getting dragged too far into these weeds, I'll simply comment that we're all happy to believe the extraordinary version of events when it fits into our political narrative (Horiuchi) but we're quick to point out the falsehoods when it doesn't (Zimmerman).

I've sat at a conference table and talked guns with Lon Horiuchi. He's a devout Christian and completely in support of private citizens' 2nd Amendment rights. The incident in ID -- which is far more complex than people appreciate -- was tragic but certainly doesn't prove malice.

I personally don't think any of us believe there was malice. I believe that the way the situation was handled after the fact was wrong. ::shrug::

Which oddly enough, is the same way I feel about what's going on right now.

[jlw]

Without getting dragged too far into these weeds, I'll simply comment that we're all happy to believe the extraordinary version of events when it fits into our political narrative (Horiuchi) but we're quick to point out the falsehoods when it doesn't (Zimmerman).

I've sat at a conference table and talked guns with Lon Horiuchi. He's a devout Christian and completely in support of private citizens' 2nd Amendment rights. The incident in ID -- which is far more complex than people appreciate -- was tragic but certainly doesn't prove malice.

Zimmerman was acquitted.

The feds blocked a prosecution of Horiuchi for manslaughter and then paid out millions of dollars over his, and others, actions.

Those facts are indisputable and aren't part of political interpretation.

It should be noted that Horiuchi is the focal point for much of the angst because he fired the shot at Ruby Ridge, but the rules of engagement there were FUBAR. Add in Horiuchi's supposed involvement at Waco, and it fuels the fire.

[Shellback]

I will no longer purchase any Troy products due to their stance on Dale Monroe, "We are proud to have him on our team." - Steve Troy

I'll save the rant...

[TCinVA]

Apparently there's a statement about all this forthcoming from Troy...so stay tuned.

[Tamara]

Apparently there's a statement about all this forthcoming from Troy...so stay tuned.

Will this one involve sock puppets? :p

[Shellback]

Apparently there's a statement about all this forthcoming from Troy...so stay tuned.

Hopefully it's a going out of business sale.

[TCinVA]

Will this one involve sock puppets? :p

I'm hoping it's going to be those punching puppets. I love those things.

[jlw]

Just went up on Troy's Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/TroyIndustriesUSA/posts/10152172007243986



I appreciate having the opportunity to speak to members of this forum. Troy Asymmetric, part of the “World of Troy,” is a business entity with a director who until this past week, held exclusive hiring authority. I am its owner, it bears my name and as we have witnessed in recent days, effects public opinion of all Troy divisions. Earlier this week, I terminated an instructor who did not support the Second Amendment as ardently as I and members of the community do.

Troy Asymmetric provides training to military and law enforcement personnel. If you spend 5 seconds on the website you’ll see a graphical depiction of a bomb explosion - the primary focus of the company. Take a moment to read the course list and you’ll note a common theme: training pertaining to explosions, bomb threats, post-blast crime scenes, incident command and crisis management. Instructors’ primary areas of expertise lie in the “bomb world,” with EOD experience, critical incident response, and tactical decision making. Some posters on the forum have said we only train “Jack Booted Thugs” and there is a secret agenda. These same posters conveniently ignore Troy Prepared:www.troyprepared.com (http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.troyprepared.com&h=1AQH-W1KUAQFl8TI_yZ5aDb68wzI1QbOHPH1p0ZDTMLgfSw&s=1). Troy Asymmetric to this date has offered no firearms training for Gov’t and LE, but in comparison, Troy Prepared has always offered firearms training to qualified civilians. From a factual, non-emotional context, it is impossible to draw the conclusion that we somehow do not support the Second Amendment and are only training “secret army”.

On August 22, 1992, Dale was an HRT Operator tasked to a mission in which he found himself facing armed adversaries. His thoughts were not only on the situation at hand, but the tragic death of a child and a U.S. Marshal. During this type of confrontation when people die, you don’t have the ability to pick sides, they are drawn before you arrive. Dale did what he was trained to do as a sniper / observer. He was fortunate not to have to take a life at this engagement. Special Agent Horiuchi made the regrettable shot, a mistake for which he will never be forgiven. Of the FBI Agents assigned to the Ruby Ridge tragedy, Dale has been one of the most outspoken. He has delivered dozens of presentations to more than 1000 civilians titled “Mistakes and Lessons of Ruby Ridge”. I weighed carefully the decision whether or not to retain Dale and could find no ethical or moral reason to remove him. Dale has not committed a criminal act, he answered all questions honestly, he did not cover anything up and he did not shoot anyone at Ruby Ridge. Dale was asked to join TA for his critical incident management expertise. Dale was never slated by TA for firearms instruction.

We all know from our biggest failures come the greatest lessons in life. Providing training that is relevant with experienced, qualified instructors can prevent a tragedy like Ruby Ridge. Dale will be able to deliver this powerful message and lessons learned in crisis management and incident command. I am driven and passionate about bringing effective change through pertinent training and speakers that have lived through these nightmares. Many times I have seen posts in forums that state “if you weren’t there then SDASTFU”, with that same school of thought, there is no one better than Dale to speak about tragedies like Ruby Ridge.

I have been a longtime and outspoken supporter of the Second Amendment. I always choose to do what’s right, even if my stance goes against others opinion. I will not throw this man to the wolves as he has demonstrated throughout his life high integrity and honor. I know most of those who would disagree are using this forum to voice your anger towards the United States Government. In some cases that anger is justified. The Ruby Ridge tragedy and the loss of life there make no bigger example of abuse of power and Government gone wrong. However, I disagree with your personal attacks on my family and company as we are not the Government and we are not training “Jack Booted Thugs”. I am a patriot and I swore to uphold and defend the Constitution of The United States, all of it. Those who have taken that same oath recognize the importance of keeping it. Thank you. -Steve Troy

[Suvorov]

I know I'll catch hell for it - but it works for me.

I realize that RR is sacred to all of us "people of the gun" and that despite the differences I might have with his politics or views on race, Randy Weaver and his family were dealt a horrible injustice by the agents of our government. But I also realize that one of the terrible ironies of life, especially the life of those under arms, is that very often good people to bad things to good people - whether due to those who are "pulling the strings" or just by circumstance.

I have also heard similar things from other people about Lon Horiuchi which Todd spoke about. I wonder how many of us, had we been sent to that mountain given being told that the Weavers were a bunch of racists to just killed one of our own, and given such terrible rules of engagement, would also have taken the shot Mr. Horiuchi did?

I remember as a 20 year old ROTC cadet, watching the Mount Carmel compound burn thinking, those folks asked for it and believing what the talking heads on the media told me. Of course my opinion on the matter has changed well over 90 degrees, but the point is that at that time, given the information I had, I too would have been a "jackbooted thug."

[TCinVA]

I have also heard similar things from other people about Lon Horiuchi which Todd spoke about. I wonder how many of us, had we been sent to that mountain given being told that the Weavers were a bunch of racists to just killed one of our own, and given such terrible rules of engagement, would also have taken the shot Mr. Horiuchi did?

I remember as a 20 year old ROTC cadet, watching the Mount Carmel compound burn thinking, those folks asked for it and believing what the talking heads on the media told me. Of course my opinion on the matter has changed well over 90 degrees, but the point is that at that time, given the information I had, I too would have been a "jackbooted thug."

Therein lies the problem. Information and judgment.

RR strikes me as one of those bureaucratic goat rodeos in slow motion that culminated in something truly horrific. Groupthink is annoying anytime, and unhealthy most of the time...and inexcusable when guns are involved. Sometimes when you tote one for a living you're dealt a crap hand and you have to make the best of a really bad situation. Other times you have the ability to stop a bad situation from happening in the first place by speaking up or exercising some independent judgment because "orders" don't always cut it.

Doesn't matter if it's Penn State or the FBI, making decisions inside insulated little bubbles is a bad idea because they feed on each other and build until something horrific happens.

All human beings are vulnerable to bad information and to letting the circumstances dictate more of our actions than they should.

We're all much more vulnerable to it if we don't even admit to it when it happens.

[Tamara]

Has everyone here read Cold Zero, Ashes Of Waco, and Every Knee Shall Bow?

[SeriousStudent]

Has everyone here read Cold Zero, Ashes Of Waco, and Every Knee Shall Bow?

Yes.

[ToddG]

I have also heard similar things from other people about Lon Horiuchi which Todd spoke about. I wonder how many of us, had we been sent to that mountain given being told that the Weavers were a bunch of racists to just killed one of our own, and given such terrible rules of engagement, would also have taken the shot Mr. Horiuchi did?

It's not even that. The shot he took, under the conditions he took it, from the position he was forced to take to make it, under the circumstances as he believed them to be at the time, paint a much different picture than the one the NRA painted. Remember, Horiuchi became the NRA's poster child for "Jack Booted Thug" and the folks running the place at the time were as willing to bend & color the truth as any political/lobbying organization. This was at the height of the 1994 AWB debates, don't forget...

The FBI is one of the most risk averse, politically sensitive agencies I've ever known. Yet Horiuchi's actions didn't send him to the bricks. Instead, he eventually became one of the people who ran the Bureau's entire sniper program. Now, some folks will never get over what they've been told about Ruby Ridge, will assume the FBI is a monolithic beast out to destroy freedom, and will add 2 + 2 to get 22. Fine.

Just understand that all the people who jumped to judgment in Horiuchi's case based on headline-grabbing media reports, politically motivated lobbying efforts, and internet groupthink are doing exactly what Sharpton, the NAACP, and Obama wanted their constituents to do with regard to Zimmerman. Period. Full stop.

[Shellback]

I believe that the ROE and the actions of Horiuchi, et al at Ruby Ridge are indefensible and can't be justified in any possible way. From Wiki on the subject: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge#The_siege_and_controversy)

The Ruby Ridge Rules of Engagement (ROE) had been drawn up on the basis of reports from the headquarters of the USMS and FBI, bolstered by unconfirmed news media accounts accepted by HQ, that exaggerated the threat posed by the Weavers.

1. If any adult male is observed with a weapon prior to the announcement, deadly force can and should be employed, if the shot can be taken without endangering any children.

2. If any adult in the compound is observed with a weapon after the surrender announcement is made, and is not attempting to surrender, deadly force can and should be employed to neutralize the individual.

3. If compromised by any animal, particularly the dogs, that animal should be eliminated.

4. Any subjects other than Randall Weaver, Vicki Weaver, Kevin Harris, presenting threats of death or grievous bodily harm, the FBI rules of deadly force are in effect. Deadly force can be utilized to prevent the death or grievous bodily injury to oneself or that of another.

Standard deadly force policy of the FBI was: "Agents are not to use deadly force against any person except as necessary in self-defense or the defense of another, when they have reason to believe they or another are in danger of death or grievous bodily harm. Whenever feasible, verbal warning should be given before deadly force is applied."[47] Under the Ruby Ridge Rules of engagement 3 and 4, the Weaver dogs, the Weaver children, and third parties were subject to the standard deadly force policy and could only be shot in self-defense if they presented a danger of death or grievous bodily harm. However, under the Ruby Ridge ROE 1 and 2, deadly force against the Weaver adults should be used without the justification of defense and without any verbal warning.

The Denver FBI SWAT team assigned to Ruby Ridge thought the ROE were "crazy" and agreed among themselves to follow the FBI deadly force policy. However, most of the FBI HRT sniper/observers accepted the ROE as modifying the deadly force policy. Examples: HRT sniper Dale Monroe saw the ROE as a "green light" to shoot armed adult males on sight and HRT sniper Edward Wenger believed that if he observed armed adults, he could use deadly force, but he was to follow standard deadly force policy for all other individuals. Fred Lanceley, the FBI Hostage Negotiator at Ruby Ridge, was "surprised and shocked" at the ROE, the most severe rules he had ever heard in his over 300 hostage situations and characterized the ROE as inconsistent with standard policy.[48] A later Senate report criticized the ROE as "virtual shoot-on-sight orders.

On about August 24, 1992, the fourth day of the siege on the Weaver family, FBI Deputy Assistant Director Danny Coulson wrote a memo:

OPR 004477
Something to Consider
1. Charge against Weaver is Bull Shit.
2. No one saw Weaver do any shooting.
3. Vicki has no charges against her.
4. Weaver's defense. He ran down the hill to see what dog was
barking at. Some guys in camys shot his dog.
Started shooting at him. Killed his son. Harris did the
shooting [of Degan]. He [Weaver] is in pretty strong legal position."

The Denver FBI SWAT team assigned to Ruby Ridge thought the ROE were "crazy" and agreed among themselves to follow the FBI deadly force policy. However, most of the FBI HRT sniper/observers accepted the ROE as modifying the deadly force policy. Examples: HRT sniper Dale Monroe saw the ROE as a "green light" to shoot armed adult males on sight and HRT sniper Edward Wenger believed that if he observed armed adults, he could use deadly force, but he was to follow standard deadly force policy for all other individuals. Fred Lanceley, the FBI Hostage Negotiator at Ruby Ridge, was "surprised and shocked" at the ROE, the most severe rules he had ever heard in his over 300 hostage situations and characterized the ROE as inconsistent with standard policy.

[jlw]

Just understand that all the people who jumped to judgment in Horiuchi's case based on headline-grabbing media reports, politically motivated lobbying efforts, and internet groupthink are doing exactly what Sharpton, the NAACP, and Obama wanted their constituents to do with regard to Zimmerman. Period. Full stop.

My assessments aren't based upon any of the above. I also didn't jump to judgement.

In Zimmerman, the investigating detective was demoted because he wouldn't bring charges. The chief was forced out because he wouldn't bring charges. The local prosecutor was replaced because he wouldn't bring charges. They even usurped the grand jury to charge Zimmerman. He was then acquitted.

Horiuchi was indicted by a grand jury. The feds then moved to block his indictment. The federal actions in this matter were later overturned on appeal. Horiuchi never had to stand in criminal court and personally be judged for his actions. Perhaps if he had many of the issues that have been burning all of these years could have been put to bed. The feds did pay out millions of dollars in a civil settlement.

Horiuchi's actions are accountable to Constituion. Zimmerman was not acting under the color of law.

Comparing the Horiuchi situation to the Zimmerman situation is a dawg that just don't hunt.l

[Suvorov]

On about August 24, 1992, the fourth day of the siege on the Weaver family, FBI Deputy Assistant Director Danny Coulson wrote a memo:

OPR 004477
Something to Consider
1. Charge against Weaver is Bull Shit.
2. No one saw Weaver do any shooting.
3. Vicki has no charges against her.
4. Weaver's defense. He ran down the hill to see what dog was
barking at. Some guys in camys shot his dog.
Started shooting at him. Killed his son. Harris did the
shooting [of Degan]. He [Weaver] is in pretty strong legal position."


All of which happened before the HRT arrived and were completely out of their control.

It was wrong. There is no one here who will argue that fact. A lot of the LE on the scene think it was wrong today. But AT the time, with the information they were given, and the ROE as it was, I still maintain that a lot of "good" folks would have done the same things that the guys at RR did. The fault lies in the chain of errors that led up to the initial fire fight going all the way back to 1934.

[jlw]

and the ROE as it was, .

ROEs can't substitute for constitutional law.

[Dagga Boy]

"Rules of Engagement" and domestic US L/E are not compatible-period. The best quote I ever heard in regards to many FBI operations is they are experts at "Cleanse and disseminate"......that was from within the organization with a firsthand view of both Ruby Ridge and Waco. I will also contend that had a local police SWAT team used the same "ROE's" and acted on them killing an unarmed female, it would be the FBI (especially with this AG) prosecuting them.

On a side note-I am good with Steve Troy's statement. I also get the concept of learning from people who have screwed up and learned the hard way....as long as they are honest about it. One of the best training sessions I ever went to was a L/E restricted debrief that was very honest about the mistakes during a major operation. If we learn from screw ups, it is a good thing, and often the most valuable lessons.

[TCinVA]

On a side note-I am good with Steve Troy's statement. I also get the concept of learning from people who have screwed up and learned the hard way....as long as they are honest about it. One of the best training sessions I ever went to was a L/E restricted debrief that was very honest about the mistakes during a major operation. If we learn from screw ups, it is a good thing, and often the most valuable lessons.

Absolutely...but I think a significant part of the controversy here is whether or not anyone involved actually admits there was a screwup. If the person in question here had come out publicly and said that some serious mistakes were made in the whole effort and that he'd spent the intervening years between now and then studying how it all went wrong and was teaching critical incident response with a focus on not letting situations turn into a feedback loop isolated from rational action, I don't think there would be much controversy.

I think the problem centers on the fact that all the major players seem to insist that they all made the right call in every situation...or at least that's what they said under oath...and when the outcome is as bad as it was at RR that just doesn't make sense.

Honest, no BS debriefs may not always be fit for public consumption, but when the screwup is this public and the results this tragic anything less just looks like a coverup.

[Sparks2112]

My issue with Troy stems from their handling of the situation after the fact A LOT more than the original situation itself.

[Shellback]

All of which happened before the HRT arrived and were completely out of their control.

It was wrong. There is no one here who will argue that fact. A lot of the LE on the scene think it was wrong today. But AT the time, with the information they were given, and the ROE as it was, I still maintain that a lot of "good" folks would have done the same things that the guys at RR did. The fault lies in the chain of errors that led up to the initial fire fight going all the way back to 1934.

I don't have the same opinion. I contend that the "good" guys wouldn't have accepted the illegal, immoral and unconstitutional "ROE" that they were given and wouldn't have pulled the trigger on American citizens who weren't posing an immediate threat. The "good" guys don't accept illegal orders that violate the principals that their oath is based on. I also believe that if Lon Horiuchi would've been held accountable for his actions you'd see a lot less people up in arms about the whole deal.

[Tamara]

It was wrong. There is no one here who will argue that fact. A lot of the LE on the scene think it was wrong today. But AT the time, with the information they were given, and the ROE as it was, I still maintain that a lot of "good" folks would have done the same things that the guys at RR did. The fault lies in the chain of errors that led up to the initial fire fight going all the way back to 1934.

The fact remains that even the most charitable interpretation of the situation has a mother with babe in arms being shot in the head through negligence rather than malice. And the shooter was then, as JLW points out, shielded from accountability by the magic of sovereign immunity.

To be a member of a unit whose motto is Servare Vitas, it has got to take some serious rationalizing to write that off as a "regrettable mistake" and drive on.

Some things you don't just get an "Oops! Sorry!" over.

If Joe Sumdood were to start kicking in my door, and I were to crank one off at him and it were to miss and hit Suzy Babymomma out in the getaway car, with their child in her lap, would the fates be kind with me?

[TCinVA]

If Joe Sumdood were to start kicking in my door, and I were to crank one off at him and it were to miss and hit Suzy Babymomma out in the getaway car, with their child in her lap, would the fates be kind with me?

There have been cases in Virginia where someone has hit the wrong person in an act of legitimate self defense and has ultimately won in court. But the circumstances, as far as I can remember from the cases I read, were pretty black and white. Dude A starts shooting at dude B from a car. Dude B returns fire, accidentally hits dude C in Dude A's car. Etc.

These were appeals court cases so somebody still ended up being tried for it, though. And none of the eventually exonerated shooters were trained snipers in an elite law enforcement unit participating in a sketchy raid.

[Suvorov]

The fact remains that even the most charitable interpretation of the situation has a mother with babe in arms being shot in the head through negligence rather than malice. And the shooter was then, as JLW points out, shielded from accountability by the magic of sovereign immunity.

To be a member of a unit whose motto is Servare Vitas, it has got to take some serious rationalizing to write that off as a "regrettable mistake" and drive on.

Some things you don't just get an "Oops! Sorry!" over.

If Joe Sumdood were to start kicking in my door, and I were to crank one off at him and it were to miss and hit Suzy Babymomma out in the getaway car, with their child in her lap, would the fates be kind with me?

I can't argue with a single thing you have said. The point I'm trying to make is that the guys on the ground were handed a situation that was made very bad by the idiots calling the shots above their head and our friends at F-troop who created the whole situation in the first place. In hind site, it is obvious that the shot that killed Mrs Weaver should not have been taken. People misconstrue Monroe's words that he too would have shot Mrs Weaver and not what he meant in that he too would have taken the shot at Harris. Lon missed and destroyed a life because of the screwed up situation and the fact that even the best marksmen miss, not because he was ordered to kill Mrs. Weaver like so many folks seem to believe. There are those here who say that regardless of the ROE, they wouldn't have taken the shot. Maybe they are right and maybe they are just kidding themselves.

Like it or not, police operating withing the scope of their duties are protected from mistakes far better than Joe Sumdood is. Look at the LAPD guys who opened up on the papergirls. Is it right? - it certainly seems to be taken too far at times. Ironic that the 911 attacks saved those who made this situation the mess that it was or there might have been a little bit of justice at the end.

If people wish to boycott Troy's products because of the belief that Mrs Weavers killers were never brought to justice then that is their right. Maybe it is sympathy for the devil, but I just don't feel as strongly about it.

[ToddG]

If Joe Sumdood were to start kicking in my door, and I were to crank one off at him and it were to miss and hit Suzy Babymomma out in the getaway car, with their child in her lap, would the fates be kind with me?

That's the idea behind sovereign immunity, though. Unlike you, these guys were sent there with specific orders to do specific things. In this case their job requires them to go into situations that most people are utterly incapable of handling. Their recent rescue of the young boy in Florida is a great example. I've spoken to many SWAT guys since then and everyone is in absolute awe that HRT was able to save that kid from the underground bunker.

If you take a giant axe and chop down a door in my house, you're in trouble. If a fireman does it in the middle of a three alarm blaze, it's different... even if it turns out he chopped down the wrong door. It sucks but it's the lesser of two evils. Otherwise, you have a hard time convincing firemen to do their jobs because they won't risk the liability.

The ROE for Ruby Ridge was absolutely unconstitutional. As pointed out, the regional FBI SWAT team out of Denver that was backing up HRT came to that conclusion immediately and decided, as a team, not to obey it. They were all in one place when the ROE was delivered. HRT, as I recall, had already deployed around the property and didn't have the benefit of a calm, quiet team meeting to discuss it. Nonetheless, the ROE was not a justification for anyone's actions. Horiuchi has stated, and it has always been the position of the FBI, that the shot he took was within FBI policy completely separate from the ROE.

So again to draw an analogy to Zimmerman, talking about the ROE is sort of like talking about Stand Your Ground laws. The ROE wasn't part of the process for the fateful shot.

The people who wrote and issued the ROE should have been sacked. No argument from me.

edited to add: Using the settlement as evidence of anything is ridiculous. Government entities settle lawsuits for lots of reasons that don't always have to do with facts.

[jlw]

Respectfully, drawing analogies to Zimmerman is ridiculous in this instance.

[Tamara]

No matter how much lipstick is applied to the pig, the fact remains that the backstop for the fatal shot was a plywood dwelling containing children.

Further, even stipulating that Horiuchi's statement that his target was threatening the helicopter with a rifle is true, his target was no longer doing so, but rather running under a roofed building where he could no longer do so, when the shot that killed Mrs. Weaver was fired.

[ToddG]

No matter how much lipstick is applied to the pig, the fact remains that the backstop for the fatal shot was a plywood dwelling containing children.

Agree 100%.

And the target was running across a cleared area, and the sniper was looking at him through a high powered scope that drastically affected his peripheral vision. The sniper was in a very weird, unsupported, hasty shooting "stance" trying to take a shot.

Your one-liner makes it sound like the target was just standing still in front of a building with a neon light blinking "beware of children."

Again, no one is suggesting the shot wasn't a mistake. But turning it into a cause célèbre for the pro-2A crowd and exaggerating the circumstances such that one guy (Horiuchi) was demonized was unfair. The whole reason he was brought up in this thread, after all, was in comparison to a vocally anti-2A police officer hired by Troy.

edited to respond to your edit:


Further, even stipulating that Horiuchi's statement that his target was threatening the helicopter with a rifle is true, his target was no longer doing so, but rather running under a roofed building where he could no longer do so, when the shot that killed Mrs. Weaver was fired.

Shooting at someone who is still armed and was moments earlier threatening lives is well within constitutional limits and probably also explicitly within the training and policies of most LE agencies.

[jlw]

.....

[Sparks2112]

We're all friends here, so I think it's cool that we can have a conversation about this and nobody leaves feeling TOO butt hurt...

That having been said, the whole "I was just following orders." defense doesn't haul much water, with me personally. Depending on who's report you read/believe Horiuchi could have reasonable suspicion that Mrs. Weaver was behind that door. My personally held beliefs on the issue would be different if it were only one questionable incident that Mr. Horiuchi were involved in. That's not the case either though. ::shrug::

I can find multiple reasons relating to this incident to not spend any more money with Troy, what other people do with their wallet doesn't really bother me too much, so, there yah go. :)

[BLR]

That having been said, the whole "I was just following orders." defense doesn't haul much water, with me personally.)

Some thoughts:

ROEs are a military thing. Not a civilian thing (FBI, even HRT are civilians, not military). **Cough**Militarization of Police Thread**Cough**

"Following Orders" is not an excuse. Eichmann was "just following orders." Military officers and law enforcement officers have an obligation to not follow unlawful orders. So the question, to me, is: was the order lawful?

[Shellback]

Horiuchi's sketch, the day after killing Vicky Weaver, and what he claims he saw prior to taking the shot. The reason this is important is that he perjured himself in court later stating that he saw no one. I don't believe for a minute that it was an accident.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/weaver/fbisketch.JPG

[Tamara]

Horiuchi's sketch, the day after killing Vicky Weaver, and what he claims he saw prior to taking the shot. The reason this is important is that he perjured himself in court later stating that he saw no one. I don't believe for a minute that it was an accident.

I am familiar with both the testimony (just went back and checked again) and the drawing, and apparently came away with a completely different interpretation than you did?

[Shellback]

I am familiar with both the testimony (just went back and checked again) and the drawing, and apparently came away with a completely different interpretation than you did?

I'm not sure what you mean... The Court's opinion repeatedly suggests that Horiuchi may have perjured himself saying his testimony repeatedly "contradicts itself" and even asks openly if Horiuchi was "making up a story" to justify his actions. A couple of excerpts (https://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F3/215/215.F3d.986.98-30149.html) that I thought were interesting:

The one key factual dispute cuts against the majority's conclusion. While the majority claims Horiuchi was unaware of Mrs. Weaver's presence behind the door, Maj. Op. at 6278-80, there is evidence that he should have known, which could make his decision to shoot blind through the door objectively unreasonable:

However, even if Horiuchi's judgment on the necessity to use deadly force was supportable, we believe that his second shot was taken without regard for the safety of others near Harris. Although Horiuchi could not see behind the front door of the cabin, he had reason to believe that someone might be on the other side when he took his second shot. At trial he testified that it appeared that Harris "was trying to hold the door open or moving somebody out of the way" when Horiuchi fired. When asked if he "knew there was somebody behind the door, " Horiuchi responded that he "wasn't shooting at the individual behind the door." However, by fixing his cross hairs on the door, when he believed someone was behind it, he placed the children and Vicki Weaver at risk, in violation of even the special Rules of Engagement: If any adult male is observed with a weapon prior to the announcement deadly force can and should be employed if the shot could be taken without endangering any children. . . . In our opinion he needlessly and unjustifiably endangered the persons whom he thought might be behind the door.

DOJ Report, note 1 supra, Section IV.F.3.c.(3) (footnotes omitted).

During his direct examination in the Weaver criminal trial, Horiuchi implied that he had a general idea as to the location of the helicopter:

Q: When you saw the activity in the house area, could you tell from the sound where the helicopter was at that particular time?

A: Generally, sir, it was either behind me or to my right or to my left.

Q: You couldn't see the helicopter at the time you saw the activity, is that correct?

A: No, sir, once the activity started, I was concentrating on the three individuals that came out of the building, not the helicopter.

Horiuchi Testimony, note 3 supra, at 67-68 (June 3, 1993). However, on cross-examination, he admitted that he had no clue as to the helicopter's location:

Q: The helicopter was behind you?

A: I don't know where the helicopter was, sir, I would be guessing if I told you where it was.

Id. at 259 (June 4, 1993).

Horiuchi presented conflicting testimony about whether he thought the helicopter was in danger. At Weaver's criminal trial, he claimed the helicopter "wasn't necessarily out of rifle range " during the reconnaissance flight he took. But on cross he was impeached by a statement that he made previously to the effect that the helicopter "stayed well out of [rifle] range" during his flight. Id. at 258 (June 4, 1993).

Time to make the donuts...