Hands Separating During Recoil Problem

[Gewehr3]

Greetings,


I am having a problem with my hands separating during recoil, especially after 2 or 3 shots. I'm shooting my issued SIG 220 .45 acp. with 230 gr loads. I'm mandated to use the pistol, and the caliber/load so I have to master what I'm issued.

Normally, I shoot isoceles with my support arm almost straight, and slightly higher than my dominant arm, which is also slightly bent with an aggressive forward stance.

I have tried the thumbs forward, and high Farnam-style thumbs grips. I also try to wedge my support side index finger under the trigger guard. My hands are mated together like I have IPSC shooters use. I wear a size 9 glove and have stubby fingers.

I have skate board tape on the grips, and front strap. Also, the pistol has SIG's thin grips.


Any suggestions?


My adventure with the Sig 220 .45 continues.

[JodyH]

You're probably applying the majority of your grip pressure to the front strap and the back strap of the pistol instead of the grip panels.
Apply more pressure to the grip panels with your palms.
Think of it like you put the pistol in a C-clamp and are pressing the grip panels together.

[SLG]

You're probably applying the majority of your grip pressure to the front strap and the back strap of the pistol instead of the grip panels.
Apply more pressure to the grip panels with your palms.
Think of it like you put the pistol in a C-clamp and are pressing the grip panels together.


And...the way to do that is to use your pecs, not your hands, to apply pressure. The feeling should be just like using a pec deck, but with only a little pressure. Done correctly, you will be able to open your support hand up so that your support fingers are straight out and not gripping anything. Your hands will not come apart, even with no grip from your support fingers, if your chest is being used correctly.

[Josh Runkle]

Suggestion: speak with your department and inform them that while their intention of issuing a .45 to stop a threat faster should make you safer, your inability to run the gun properly makes it a liability.

The path to hell is paved with good intentions.

Is there a Chief Armorer or someone similar that has some input in the decision making process for gear?

[jetfire]

And...the way to do that is to use your pecs, not your hands, to apply pressure.

This is news to me. I must try this this evening.

[irishshooter]

Also, the pistol has SIG's thin grips.
replace the grips with thicker grips. I'd try Hogue overwraps. nice grippy texture and thicker than the new E2 like slim grips

[jslaker]

And...the way to do that is to use your pecs, not your hands, to apply pressure. The feeling should be just like using a pec deck, but with only a little pressure. Done correctly, you will be able to open your support hand up so that your support fingers are straight out and not gripping anything. Your hands will not come apart, even with no grip from your support fingers, if your chest is being used correctly.

Like caleb, I just had a major lightbulb moment. I've never seen it described quite this way before, and it's something I'm going to start paying more attention to starting with my dryfire tonight. Thanks for the pointer, SLG.

[joshs]

For those who are trying out using your pecs to add pressure to the grip, I find that it is much easier to add pressure this way if I roll my elbows up and out. Also, adding a little more bend to the elbows seems to help as well.

[Argus]

And...the way to do that is to use your pecs, not your hands, to apply pressure. The feeling should be just like using a pec deck, but with only a little pressure. Done correctly, you will be able to open your support hand up so that your support fingers are straight out and not gripping anything. Your hands will not come apart, even with no grip from your support fingers, if your chest is being used correctly.

SLG's explanation of this at the Culpeper mini class was a lightbulb moment for me (one of several that day). Using the larger chest muscles to apply lateral pressure on the gun makes so much sense, and is something I never really thought about before. Between this and Sean B's recommendation to scale back my strong hand grip to "handshake" strength primarily on the front and back straps, I found that I could maintain better control of the gun without getting as fatigued while shooting.

[MDS]

And...the way to do that is to use your pecs, not your hands, to apply pressure.

ToddG gave me this advice almost a year ago, when he saw me shooting a USP45 compact and having this trouble. It was like magic when I did it right - the gun stayed in my hands without moving, even when I relaxed my hands a little. I've switched to 9mm Glocks now, but I still shoot that USP sometimes just to make sure I don't forget to engage the pecs a little as part of my grip.

[Gewehr3]

Thanks for the suggestions. I have never heard of using the chest muscle to control a pistol before.

[ToddG]

ToddG gave me this advice almost a year ago,

For the record: I learned it from SLG, too!

[JV_]

Also, adding a little more bend to the elbows seems to help as well.+1 This makes a big difference for me.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I've also seen hands come apart because the shooter had overextended their pushout to the point the elbows were nearly hyperextended. Causes the hands to flex apart slightly leading to loss of the grip during firing.

[Occam's Razor]

Being a smaller guy, this is something I've taught for a while. Elbows slightly bent and using the pecs and back muscles by dropping the elbows slightly. Made a very big difference for me. Completes that clamshell effect. Thought I was freak of nature there for a while, nice to see I'm only a bit of a freak.

[YVK]

LAV gives the same advice re pectoral muscles involvement, crediting it to Leatham.

On a separate note, I've been using Captains of Crush grippers to build up grip strength. The package came in containing a bunch of stuff, including a little booklet with an interview with Bob Vogel. Apparently, he trains with CoC grippers, starting with 2.5 and going higher.
I am not an advanced physical specimen, but not a handicapped person either. I do general resistance training 3-4 times a week. I can't get 2.0 grippers to start moving. I don't have 1.5, but Trainer and 1.0 is all I need to get myself challenged, especially weak hand.
Puts a notion of adequate grip strength in a different prospective, doesn't it?

[John Ralston]

I worked up to closing the 2's 5 times - until I ended up with Tendonitis from it. I had to stop using them for about 10 months. I don't plan on going past the #1 in the future.

I used to lift weights a lot, but the COC #2's brought me down ;)

[YVK]

I don't know if I can go past 1 in the future...Just tried 2 again - maybe halfway with strong hand, less with weak.

[SLG]

If we're going to have to start giving credit for every little technique, I guess it's only fair to point out that Rob (TGO) learned it from me. Or maybe it was the other way around:-)

At any rate, I have not come up with anything on my own, so if I don't always mention where I learned something, it's a safe bet that someone showed it to me.

[YVK]

SLG, I wasn't protecting anybody's copyrights; this was intended as an illustration that technique is well accepted in serious shooting circles.

BTW, I have had a hard time learning it, and still don't know how to do it right. For starters, one needs to have pectoral muscles in order to use them:). Seriously, there has to be a balance between good tension and going stiff in upper body, and that's what happens to me.

[SLG]

SLG, I wasn't protecting anybody's copyrights; this was intended as an illustration that technique is well accepted in serious shooting circles..

No worries, I didn't think otherwise:-) In a full class (multi day) I try to give as much credit as I can, if only so people can learn the history of something (which Todd will tell you I'm somewhat fanatical about). On the internet, I just hate typing, so I sometimes leave things out for brevity.

On that note, if I ever seem to be wrong about something, it's only because I was tired of typing, not actually wrong;-)

[dookie1481]

LAV gives the same advice re pectoral muscles involvement, crediting it to Leatham.

On a separate note, I've been using Captains of Crush grippers to build up grip strength. The package came in containing a bunch of stuff, including a little booklet with an interview with Bob Vogel. Apparently, he trains with CoC grippers, starting with 2.5 and going higher.
I am not an advanced physical specimen, but not a handicapped person either. I do general resistance training 3-4 times a week. I can't get 2.0 grippers to start moving. I don't have 1.5, but Trainer and 1.0 is all I need to get myself challenged, especially weak hand.
Puts a notion of adequate grip strength in a different prospective, doesn't it?

Jesus, I have trouble with the 1...

[ToddG]

the history of something (which Todd will tell you I'm somewhat fanatical about).

Very true. I cannot even guess how many times I've been talking to SLG and he's told me that some new thing I started doing or just learned actually began with the guy who taught Jack Weaver how to hold a pistol...

[MDS]

Very true. I cannot even guess how many times I've been talking to SLG and he's told me that some new thing I started doing or just learned actually began with the guy who taught Jack Weaver how to hold a pistol...

Cool! It would be interesting to see something like a family tree of pistol TTPs.

[supersix4]

I came here a couple of days ago to post this very question, as I noticed my support hand sliding forward on the pistol. I found this thread followed the advice and VIOLA! Tried it last night, and with good results. Thanks much.