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View Full Version : Travis Haley's Disruptive Environments: Handgun Vehicle Darkness - Class Observations



Arclight
08-18-2013, 09:22 PM
I don't really write AARs anymore, but I attended Travis Haley's Disruptive Environments: Handgun Vehicle Darkness (HVD) (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&ved=0CEsQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.haleystrategic.com%2Fdownload s%2FD3_handgun_darkness.pdf&ei=oGsRUv67I66FyQGZyoDgAg&usg=AFQjCNHY4c1vpIvc7Y87xk-1Y4gKeWEklw&sig2=49L6khlOE0MLCD_t6wVU4g&bvm=bv.50768961,d.aWc) class hosted by Engage Armament this past week and figured I'd share a few observations for the reference of anyone trying to decide among courses. This is less "what the course is about" and more "what the course is like."

BLUF: If you're a highly proficient handgun shooter looking to branch out of the range booth and build some real-life application skills, I highly recommend this course. I was pleasantly surprised with Haley as an instructor and the Engage Armament staff were good hosts.

There are other AARs out there that get into the play-by-play of the standards and drills, so I will not rehash that here. I will note that the class evolves over time and the drills vary by location, facilities and resources, so your HVD might not look exactly the same as the one in the AAR, but I would bet you won't be disappointed.

For background, this is kind of a rebound course for me. I attended a big class by a famous instructor a couple of years ago and it was a disillusioning and off-putting experience. I was a little leery of signing up for another big class by a big name guy, fully expecting lots of ego and not much instruction again. Even though this was a large class (~25 students - the only real downside that comes to mind), the style of presentation worked well and the content was excellent. Travis' stories alone were worth a big chunk of the cost of admission; relevant, insightful and entertaining. Not like the self-aggrandizing war stories of so many people in the industry.

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_4813_zps7b97e679.jpg

I will admit, I was a bit surprised by Haley. As I said, I expected to be working around a big ego but, while he was certainly "self-confident" (as one classmate put it), he was one of the most genuine, committed teachers I've ever dealt with. He came across as legitimately wanting to help us each learn and improve because these aren't competition skills -- someone's life may depend on your ability to apply what he's presenting. This was refreshing. This perspective of real-life application and all of its consequences can only come from someone who's been on the wrong end of armed encounters that went sideways, and Haley's experience with a few of those was presented in an appropriately sobering fashion. I appreciated that it wasn't a "guns look cool, let's go shoot stuff!" class. This is serious business and it was treated as such.

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_5277_zps82a209a3.jpg

In addition to many useful drills ranging from fundamentals to bounding movements in low light, as expected, Haley strongly emphasized mindset and the "why". I'm big on "why," so I appreciated this too. Some of the scientific(ish)-ness is a little reaching, but the principles are sound. I can forgive a little overcomplication of explanation mixed with oversimplification of science when it's a side-effect of a genuine interest in taking a serious look at why we do what we do and how we can do it better.

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_4799_zpsa8d58976.jpg

I found Haley's demonstrations valuable, including using a SIRT pistol so we could see from the "threat" point of view when illustrating use of cover and why some small changes to our placement can make a big difference in visibility and survivability. Drills often let the students discover important principles, and then were followed by in-depth discussion of the principle. For example, each student engaged a threat target through glass and Haley noted the point of impact for each type of ammo, then described the effects of glass and glass angle on the bullet. This was extremely useful for many of the law enforcement officers in the course who had not only never learned about shooting through glass, but didn't know how their duty ammo would perform.

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_5267_zpsa50bbbdd.jpg

One thing I have gotten more attuned to is the style of instruction in a course. Having taken various excellent classes from Todd Green and Ernest Langdon, I got spoiled by in-depth one-on-one coaching and brutal attention to every aspect of my technique. Their coaching style of instruction has made a huge difference in my shooting skill over the years and I make a point of revisiting them periodically to refine that. The last course I took with the Big Name Instructor was another style: Drills under the supervision of a famous guy. This seems to be a popular model among the "I want an excuse to wear multicam" crowd, but I found it very disappointing at that price point and avoid that myself. The third model is what we had last week: while the class was too big for much one-on-one, we got solid instruction on skills and concepts, followed by well-designed reinforcing drills. This isn't to say there wasn't any coaching -- Travis and AJ walked the line and made useful adjustments and corrections throughout the course -- but it was not the primary method of instruction.

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_5393_zps80945dd8.jpg

As a final note, I do have to say something about the class population and the hosts. There ~25 students, including quite a few LEOs, a couple of military, and a wide mix of "other", including two Emergency Physicans whose presence made us all breathe easier. While this was about the maximum class size I could imagine for a course like this, we had a very talented pool of students for the most part. There were a couple of outliers but, to their great credit, they were the first to admit they were a bit behind the skill curve and had the right attitude and dedication to make the most of the experience. The students can make or break a class experience, and the class really benefited from a solid group of guys with good attitudes and good skills. Everyone really wanted to be there and really wanted to learn, and it showed.

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_5202_zpscb64ddfb.jpg

This was also my first class hosted by Engage Armament. While the range was a little tricky to get to and lacked amenities, it was an excellent facility for training and the Engage guys were personable and pleasant. The big unexpected bonus was the provided dinners. I expected cheap pizza or something, but instead we got three days of fantastic, homecooked dinners. Three cheers to the dinner crew for giving us the strength to keep trucking until past 2230 each night!

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_5411_zpsc63e0295.jpg

Thanks to Travis and Engage for stopping the Train in Maryland. I look forward to next time.

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_5211_zps3c312e97.jpg

zacbol
08-19-2013, 01:50 PM
Thanks for posting this, I really enjoyed reading it particularly because you approached things somewhat critically/skeptically and that seems rare with most 'AARs'. Sounds like a very cool class.

Arclight
08-19-2013, 04:24 PM
Thanks for posting this, I really enjoyed reading it particularly because you approached things somewhat critically/skeptically and that seems rare with most 'AARs'. Sounds like a very cool class.

Thank you. I was skeptical and part of why I have stopped writing AARs is just what you pointed out. They're rarely honest and meaningful.

And it was a very cool class, so I'm glad that came across in the write-up. Sometimes if you say anything short of perfection, people take it the wrong way.

I would definitely take another class with Travis, another class from Engage, and if I could train with that whole group of students again, I would. That's about as good an endorsement of the experience as I can offer.

Arclight
08-20-2013, 10:04 PM
http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_4726_zpsc32506a3.jpg

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_4735_zpsdc59db4e.jpg

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_4772_zps84395ee4.jpg

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_4780_zps00e69ac0.jpg

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_4794_zps2ad1a1a1.jpg

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_5013_zpsc123a680.jpg

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_5073_zpse0250d37.jpg

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_5357_zps253289ef.jpg

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_5383_zpsd0b0a899.jpg

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_5479_zps148a57a0.jpg

Arclight
08-21-2013, 07:28 PM
If you'd like to see more pics from the course, check out John Chang's awesome shots on the Haley Strategic Tumblr page (http://haleystrategic.tumblr.com/) or on their Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.565909630142458.1073741831.136737106393048&type=1)page.

First time I've ever seen a normal camera capture a bullet coming out of the gun! Nice work, JC!

In the meantime, here's a few more, including a couple only people in the class will really appreciate.
http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_5106_zps80abac42.jpg

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_4829_zpsb8587db7.jpg

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_4852_zps1cc2875e.jpg

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_4934_zpscc8a31c1.jpg

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_5187_zpscffaf255.jpg

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_5433_zps1b7a9b79.jpg

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_5509_zps5d5e396c.jpg

JSGlock34
08-21-2013, 08:51 PM
As Arclight already covered class impressions, I'll add some more mundane gear related observations. Most students used Glock pistols, though a number of M&P and SIG handguns were also present. I employed a GEN4 Glock 17, while Arclight switched between GEN4 and GEN3 Glock 17s. Neither one of us experienced any problems with our pistols (my GEN4 sailed past the 2000 round challenge (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9-2-000-Round-Challenge&p=154836&viewfull=1#post154836) during this course), though one of the LEOs experienced a breakage (slide stop lever spring) in his well worn Glock 22. I had my armorer's kit with me - we stepped off the line and I had him back up and running before the next evolution.

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x131/JSGlock34/HSP%20D3%202013/HSP2_zpsf1680361.jpg

As you might expect from a low-light course, flashlights were a major point of discussion, and there were a wide variety of handheld and weapon mounted lights (WMLs) in use. Haley discussed flashlight features and techniques, and instructed the use of both handheld lights and WMLs (more time was spent on handheld lights as there are several different techniques and handhelds are unquestionably more difficult to utilize).

I observed handheld lights from Surefire, Inforce, Streamlight and 4Sevens - as well as some makes and models that I couldn't identify. I personally employed a Surefire Z2, E1B and Quark 123 at varying times during the course (experimenting with different lights and techniques - for example the older Z2 came in handy when we were applying the Surefire/Rogers technique, whereas the E1B and Quark are my typical EDC lights). For a WML I used a new Surefire X300 Ultra in a Raven Concealment Systems LC Phantom (a hat tip to RCS for getting a holster out to me in time for the course).

I'm definitely reconsidering some of my flashlight choices after this course. I really like the E1B, but the dual mode was definitely a drawback - particularly when practicing off line of attack responses where you started searching with the light - then deactivated while moving and drawing your firearm. Once I came back on target and re-illuminated, I'd sometimes get the low power setting. The Z2 and Quark123 performed better in this regard.

Of all the hand held techniques, I found the Surefire/Rogers easiest to apply, along with the neck-index. Unfortunately I find the Z2 somewhat cumbersome to carry around, so I may be looking for a smaller light that permits the Surefire/Rogers hold. I found the FBI technique useful for searching but awkward for shooting, and didn't care for the Harries grip. It was great to get a chance to try each of these techniques in various drills and positions - handheld techniques that were easy to use at the 5 yard line had a very different flavor when you were taking cover behind a car and engaging a target's legs underneath from the rollover prone.

As far as WMLs, I used the X300 Ultra while Arclight ran a X400. I found the X300 Ultra bright and easy to manipulate. The mount was solid. It was unquestionably one of the most potent lights on the range. This was apparent during a night-time walkback drill on the second night. Past 50 meters the limitations of some of the less powerful lights were apparent. The X300U illuminated the steel targets quite well even at long distances. Arclight had some issues with the X400 mount, which resulted in his light departing the pistol during one evolution. I believe Arclight plans to a) Loctite the X400 and b) acquire an X300U in the future.

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x131/JSGlock34/HSP%20D3%202013/HSP1_zps8331396e.jpg

I ran Trijicon HD sights during this course, while Arclight alternated between Trijicon HDs and the Ameriglo CAP. Quality night sights proved their worth - particularly during a "no-light" course of fire. Even at 25 meters in very dark conditions without the benefit of a flashlight, I was able to land head shots using the HD sights. More than a few students remarked that they would be purchasing HD sights for their pistols.

Arclight covered the class well, but I want to make a point about Travis Haley. He's one of the most positive instructors I've taken a class from - and his attitude was infectious, which made for a great atmosphere among the students. I'd certainly take a class with Haley again.

Thanks to Arclight for a few photos to brighten this post.

Joe Mamma
08-21-2013, 10:36 PM
I was in this class too. It was a great class and Travis is a great instructor. People often talk about Travis's accomplishments in combat. But what many overlook is that he is actually a great teacher. During this class, it was obvious that he takes teaching very seriously and puts a lot of effort into it (unlike a lot of other shooting instructors). Travis pays close attention to each student and genuinely tries to help them.

I do have to add that I thought the experience level and skill level of the shooters in this class was ridiculously high. A few of the other students said so too. I have taken other classes, and the experience/skill level of these students was significantly higher than any other class I have seen. These were obviously people who shot a lot, spent a lot of time thinking about/studying shooting, and understood many different techniques, styles, equipment, etc.

As one example, one of the students is an experienced firearms instructor at a very large police department. He told the class that he is "the best shooter" out of anyone he knows (or works with or something like that). But among the students in this class, he said he was struggling just to be average.

There was a walkback drill/competition at night where the class was split into 2 "teams." They "raced" each other back adding an element of time pressure. One of the students made first round hits in the dark using a flashlight (hand held, not weapon mounted) and a stock Glock 17 all the way back to about 80 yards. He never missed--this was just where the drill/competition ended. There were other students who were as good or better than him.

The odd thing was that with the high level of experience and skill, there were really no big egos (that I saw). Everyone was pretty humble. We all wanted to be there and learn. During the class, I noticed students looking out for and helping each other (like JSGlock34 quickly helping another student with their gun problem).

I got the feeling there were students who were instructors (outside of this class) because everything went very smoothly during the entire class. Even the least experienced shooters in the class were great to shoot with. Everyone knew how to operate safely in a large group of people with guns when doing lots of unusual things. As Arclight said, I would gladly take another class with Travis, Engage Armament, and the same group of students.

Arclight and JSGlock34, I really enjoyed meeting you and shooting with you. Thank you for the great pictures. Toyota builds incredible door latches, don't they? :)

Joe Mamma

archangel
08-22-2013, 03:27 PM
http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_5013_zpsc123a680.jpg


I was in this class also. (That's my arm!)

I'll echo what the others have said so far. The students in the class were a great group of guys to shoot with. We did some stuff (like maneuvering around each other with guns drawn, or sitting in the passenger seat while the driver leans across to fire out your window) that could have gotten hairy with lesser shooters. In this class, we had no issues, and I was never worried about any of it.

Travis is an exceptional instructor. He has a very high level of skill, and the ability to teach those skills. But what really sets him apart are his in-depth understanding of what he's teaching, and his passion for teaching it. He genuinely cares about his students, and really wants them to succeed.


JSGlock34 mentioned looking for a less bulky light than the Z2, so I thought I'd share what I ended up with after the class.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7408/9569997727_b3efac5922_z.jpg

That's essentially a FourSevens QT2L (although in my case, it has a Fenix PD30 body, but basically the same) with the rubber rings from a Surefire G2Z. On Day 3 I was running it with a duct-tape improvised plunger, which sort of worked, but the SF rings work much better. I also removed some material from the tailcap to make the button work better with the R/SF technique.

It's about the same size as the (even more heavily modified than mine) Insight light that Travis was running, and quite a bit smaller than a Z2.

Dropkick
08-22-2013, 04:21 PM
Sounds like it was a pretty informational course. That's awesome.


Arclight alternated between Trijicon HDs and the Ameriglo CAP. Quality night sights proved their worth - particularly during a "no-light" course of fire.

Arclight, I'm curious about your general impressions of the Trijicon "3-dot" verses the Ameriglo CAP "box & line". And also your impressions of them under various lighting conditions. I have one style, but have been considering trying out the other.

Chuck Whitlock
08-22-2013, 04:30 PM
Arclight, I'm curious about your general impressions of the Trijicon "3-dot" verses the Ameriglo CAP "box & line". And also your impressions of them under various lighting conditions.

Ditto

JonEMTP
08-22-2013, 04:40 PM
So... Pertinent stupid question...

I see the one LEO wearing a vest all the time, and I see a variety of other plate carriers and soft armor in use at times in the photo.

Did some drills require armor? Or were folks just wearing it for "train as you fight"... Or a combination?


What were holsters like? AIWB, IWB, OWB, Thigh? Retention devices?


And thanks for the review.


Jon

rudy99
08-22-2013, 05:10 PM
http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff339/ArclightPB/Disruptive%20Environments/ARM_5357_zps253289ef.jpg

Interesting write up. I really liked this picture where you see the reflection of the class in the rear view mirror.

JSGlock34
08-22-2013, 07:18 PM
So... Pertinent stupid question...

I see the one LEO wearing a vest all the time, and I see a variety of other plate carriers and soft armor in use at times in the photo.

Did some drills require armor? Or were folks just wearing it for "train as you fight"... Or a combination?


What were holsters like? AIWB, IWB, OWB, Thigh? Retention devices?


And thanks for the review.


Jon

Armor was not a requirement for the course or any drills. Some folks wore armor for the entire class. I don't normally wear armor, but I donned a slick plate carrier for some of the later exercises on the third day that involved movement on the range. This was simply a precaution as these drills involved turning and moving with the firearm drawn. As was said earlier, this was a switched on group of students; it seemed to me that the students knew their own capabilities and no one tried to go beyond their personal safe speed limits.

Holsters were very diverse. Arclight and I both used Raven Concealment Systems Phantom OWB holsters (both standard and light compatible). I'd say OWB carry was the most common. Among the LEOs there were duty rigs and thigh drops in use. Several folks ran their pistol from a MOLLE style belt. I did observe AIWB, and Haley touched on AIWB carry (using the Incog holster).

Arclight
08-22-2013, 07:37 PM
Arclight, I'm curious about your general impressions of the Trijicon "3-dot" verses the Ameriglo CAP "box & line". And also your impressions of them under various lighting conditions. I have one style, but have been considering trying out the other.

I actually expected to like the CAP sights in the dark more than I did, but I say that with a caveat: I have shot 3-dot sights for 95%+ of my handgun shooting experience, so I'm definitely more programmed to interpret them under stress. If you actually practiced with the CAPs, you'd probably find them more than adequate.

Pros of the CAPs:
- The front sight is very visible, and this is a big plus.
- If you get confused lining up the dots, the "dash" and dot model may work well for you.
- They are photoluminescent, so if you're going from light to dark, they'll be even brighter for your eyes to pick up (if the sights aren't shrouded too much by the holster).

Cons to the CAPs:
- I found the "dash" to be hard to line up sharply with my focus on the front sight in the dark.... it's good enough for close engagements (which is probably most of where people want them) but when we did the walkback drill, I found it hard to line up a blurry dash that blends in with the front sight color. This would probably improve with practice, and it may depend on your eyes and sight picture.
- It's easier for me to see if the dots are lined up both horizontally and vertically. I lose the blurry rear dash in the front sight color, which can throw off the vertical. The horizontal isn't bad. If they were more distinctly different (colors, maybe), it may help.
- It's different. This isn't a big deal most of the time, but as I said, I have a moment of "wait, what?" when I present and don't get three dots. Again, that's my lack of practice and exposure speaking, but know where you come from if you're thinking of changing sight styles.

--------

The Trijicon HD 3-dot sights were what I had on my Gen4 17 (used for day all three days and night the first night). Hands down my favorite sights right now, they're clearly visible in day and night. I have the orange front, which for my eyes is more visible in daytime than the yellow option. Opinions vary. Having the high visibility front sight definitely reinforces front sight focus and tracking in daylight, especially coming from shooting standard Glock or Trijicon 3-dots for years. Shooting in the dark with no light worked quite well -- the dots were very visible and distinct -- but it made me wonder if it would be worth trying different colors in the front and rear to make keeping track of the front easier. What I found was that, as long as my grip and presentation were solid, the gun aligns properly so that's not an issue. Shooting in nonstandard positions (rollover prone) could be a different story.

I'm very happy with the HD sights and I would get them again. The CAP sights came from the factory on my Gen3 G17 and while I don't like them as much as the HDs, I probably won't bother changing them (I use that gun pretty rarely). If anything, I may find a two-dot rear sight that's compatible and swap it in, since the front sight of the CAPs is great.

Arclight
08-22-2013, 07:42 PM
Interesting write up. I really liked this picture where you see the reflection of the class in the rear view mirror.

Thank you. I was wondering if anyone would notice that!

---

To the holsters question, JSGlock34 covered most of it, but as for retention I observed both ALS and SLS Safariland holsters in use. For the most part, it appeared to be strong side belt carry with a handful of drop and offset or drop leg duty holsters and one or two AIWB.

Interestingly (to me), it was one of the LEOs (a detective) who I saw carrying AIWB. He said he prefers it because of the concealment and because he sits in a car a lot of the time. The department didn't have an objection, which was refreshing to hear.

Dropkick
08-22-2013, 08:01 PM
If anything, I may find a two-dot rear sight that's compatible and swap it in, since the front sight of the CAPs is great.

Circles and Squares?! Oh my! ;)

Thanks for the thoughtful insights. I especially liked how you described how easy/difficult it was to line each type up both vertically and horizontally. I've been using the Trijicons, but was interested in the CAPs, but not as much now. Thanks again, I appreciate it.

Arclight
08-22-2013, 08:32 PM
Circles and Squares?! Oh my! ;).

Cats and dogs together!

Seriously though, all that speaks to my experience. I also don't like the "straight-8" sights for the same reason, but top shooters swear by them. Or the blacked out rears. That's not to say they're not great sights for some people, but they don't fit my (current) experience and preference.

If you're thinking about switching sights for a reason other than "I haven't bought anything new in a while", consider what that reason really is. If it's because 3-dot isn't working well for you under some circumstances or for some reason, then maybe it's time for an alternative. If you're just exploring alternatives out of curiosity and want to see if another pattern suits you better, I'd recommend finding someone who's got 'em and spending a little time to see how they work for you. You might need a break-in period to get used to them, but it should give you an idea.

For what it's worth, my best performance in a pistol-only shooting match was with Glock factory dot-and-bucket sights (you know, the decorative ones they put on the gun as a placeholder before you buy real sights), so you never know what may work out for you.

Chuck Whitlock
08-22-2013, 09:28 PM
Arclight,
Thanks for the response. Between you and TLG I'm rethinking my options for two pistols that need new sights....of course now I'm leaning toward the more expensive option!

Chuck Haggard
08-23-2013, 07:37 AM
Good write-up, and pics, thanks for taking the time to post.



Ref flashlight TTPs; Modified FBI was never meant to be a shooting technique, it's a search technique. Neck index is not a search technique, it's a shooting technique. Just an observation.

nalesq
08-23-2013, 07:46 AM
Ref flashlight TTPs; Modified FBI was never meant to be a shooting technique, it's a search technique.

Was the older school FBI flashlight hold intended as a shooting technique?

Chuck Haggard
08-23-2013, 10:18 AM
Was the older school FBI flashlight hold intended as a shooting technique?

Originally yes, doesn't work for that at all well.

Using handheld lights I find myself flowing between Modified FBI and neck index most often, like 98% of the time. The Rogers technique just doesn't work for me outside of a square range. Harries does at times, if I have a problem to my left or I'm taking a longer ranged shot.

Joe Mamma
08-23-2013, 02:00 PM
Seriously though, all that speaks to my experience. I also don't like the "straight-8" sights for the same reason, but top shooters swear by them. Or the blacked out rears. That's not to say they're not great sights for some people, but they don't fit my (current) experience and preference.

If you're thinking about switching sights for a reason other than "I haven't bought anything new in a while", consider what that reason really is. If it's because 3-dot isn't working well for you under some circumstances or for some reason, then maybe it's time for an alternative. If you're just exploring alternatives out of curiosity and want to see if another pattern suits you better, I'd recommend finding someone who's got 'em and spending a little time to see how they work for you. You might need a break-in period to get used to them, but it should give you an idea.

Dropkick and Sotex and anyone else who might be interested, I'm with Arclight on this.

During this class, I switched to a gun (but the same make/model as my usual handgun) with a simple 3 dot set up. All 3 dots are self illuminated (Tritium). They are Meprolights with yellow dots in the rear, and a green dot up front. For me, the green appears brighter, and the different colors help me quickly differentiate the front and rear sights.

As background, I rarely shoot the gun with these sights. My usual handgun is a competition gun which has with plain black steel sights (no tritium, no paint, nothing other than small serrations).

But with my 3 dot sights, I had no problems shooting accurately and quickly (because of my sights). This was in many different positions under widely varying lighting conditions (including no artificial light, just moonlight).

As Arclight mentioned, the 3 dot set up helps you line the sights up both vertically and horizontally. That's an obvious and basic concept, but it's also very important. I've tried many other sights over the years, but nothing works nearly as well for me in low light conditions as this set up.

Another basic but important concept is knowing your hold over (or hold under, hold off, offset, etc.) for the dots (or other markings on your sight) on your sights. At close ranges, it's not really an issue. But with medium/long distances and/or small targets, the difference between your bullet's point of impact when using the top edge of your sights versus the dots only can be very significant.

When we were shooting in very low light conditions, I couldn't really see the top edge of my sights. I could only see my illuminated dots. But I knew how much to hold under. As JSGlock34 mentioned, we could make head shots on a silhouette at about 75 feet without any light other than a little moonlight.

In the dark unfamiliar environment with a lot of things going on, one of the experienced shooters in the group forgot to hold under. I'm not sure exactly what type of sights he was using. But his hits were off by a lot. Once he remembered he had to hold under, he was dead on.

7A38

Chuck Haggard
08-23-2013, 02:07 PM
Red Sharpie on the rear dots cures the issue with the three green dots, quick and easy.

peterb
08-23-2013, 02:33 PM
The CAP sights came from the factory on my Gen3 G17 and while I don't like them as much as the HDs, I probably won't bother changing them (I use that gun pretty rarely). If anything, I may find a two-dot rear sight that's compatible and swap it in, since the front sight of the CAPs is great.

Several folks here have reported good results with the Pro Operator rear sight and the CAP front. There's a photo of the combination here: http://pistol-training.com/archives/5597

Chuck Haggard
08-23-2013, 02:42 PM
Several folks here have reported good results with the Pro Operator rear sight and the CAP front. There's a photo of the combination here: http://pistol-training.com/archives/5597

That's what I have gone to on all of my Glocks. As fast for me as the XS Big Dots but easier to be accurate with at distance.

Arclight
08-23-2013, 08:21 PM
Several folks here have reported good results with the Pro Operator rear sight and the CAP front. There's a photo of the combination here: http://pistol-training.com/archives/5597

I may have to try that out, thank you.

I should also note that if you use your flashlight on your CAP sights, you can make them bright enough to read by, briefly. If you're gaming it, you can charge up the front right before a run and have a *really* visible front sight. Not practical for defensive shooting, obviously, but for those inclined to game it and who are working on tracking the front sight, it can be a handy feature.

On the other hand, they're super visible in the dark if you're coming from somewhere that would have charged them up. It doesn't last long, so I wouldn't get worked up about it, but just be aware you could be pretty well lit up.

vandal
08-26-2013, 01:43 PM
Hope this doesn't come off as too petty, but were you required to pick up brass?

At the D3 class I took, the host required us to pick up the brass, which he then kept (1000 cases x 25 students!) Given the high registration fee, the high round count, and high cost of ammo that seemed unreasonable.

Chuck Haggard
08-26-2013, 03:35 PM
Hope this doesn't come off as too petty, but were you required to pick up brass?

At the D3 class I took, the host required us to pick up the brass, which he then kept (1000 cases x 25 students!) Given the high registration fee, the high round count, and high cost of ammo that seemed unreasonable.

If I pick it up then I am keeping it.

That's my rule, except at work where I didn't pay for the ammo to begin with..

Chuck Whitlock
08-26-2013, 07:51 PM
Several folks here have reported good results with the Pro Operator rear sight and the CAP front. There's a photo of the combination here: http://pistol-training.com/archives/5597

Is there any practical difference, other than personal preference, between the following:

1. Trijicon HDs
2. Pro-operator w/ CAP front
3. Pro-operator w/Hack front

I can't afford to experiment with them all...trying to buy once/cry once.

JSGlock34
08-26-2013, 08:00 PM
Hope this doesn't come off as too petty, but were you required to pick up brass?

At the D3 class I took, the host required us to pick up the brass, which he then kept (1000 cases x 25 students!) Given the high registration fee, the high round count, and high cost of ammo that seemed unreasonable.

Nope. I thought Engage Armament did a great job of hosting the class. They provided dinner, cold water and refreshments everyday. Definitely felt like I got my money's worth.

underhook
08-27-2013, 02:05 AM
Hope this doesn't come off as too petty, but were you required to pick up brass?

At the D3 class I took, the host required us to pick up the brass, which he then kept (1000 cases x 25 students!) Given the high registration fee, the high round count, and high cost of ammo that seemed unreasonable.

I was at the CA class too and was amazed at the host. $800 was put down to train not police brass.

That aside, I got a lot out of Haley's D3.

Chance
09-01-2013, 03:56 PM
I used the X300 Ultra while Arclight ran a X400.

How did the X400 work out, and did you sort why it came loose? Did you use it with the laser on, and did it manage to keep its zero?


As I said, I expected to be working around a big ego but, while he was certainly "self-confident" (as one classmate put it), he was one of the most genuine, committed teachers I've ever dealt with.

Haley's so smooth he practically glides, but I never once felt like anyone was being patronized in the course I took with him, despite my class being full of a lot of relative novices (myself included). He seems like a genuinely good guy.

Arclight
09-03-2013, 06:31 PM
How did the X400 work out, and did you sort why it came loose? Did you use it with the laser on, and did it manage to keep its zero?

As a weapon light, it worked quite well -- good throw (clearly visible on the walkback where it did better than I expected, well beyond most pistol engagement range for most people) and with enough spread to make it easy to pick out your target and what's around it. I haven't use the laser much, but I selected the X400 so I'd have the laser option for home defense (accepting that my sight picture may be lousy at 3:30 AM). I've used it at the range and it works fine with relatively gentle use, but someone with more experience could opine more definitively than I. I do very much like the selector switch so I can control whether it's light, light/laser, laser or OFF. Especially since I use the DG Switch on it, being able to turn it off is nice when you don't want to be flashing things inadvertently (the double-edged sword of a pressure switch).

The only real flaw I found in the X400 is the mount. Haley agreed and pointed out he Lock-Tites everything anyway, including his X400 at home.... which I should have done since the X400 decided it didn't want to play anymore after about 500 rounds or so and jumped off the gun. A couple of observations there:
- Clearly a shortcoming of the screw-on mount, and rectified in the slide-on lock of the X300U and other WMLs.
- Probably not likely to be a problem under *normal* use, since you're not likely to shoot hundreds of rounds IRL but...
- Some Lock-Tite would probably solve this, and I plan to find out.

Interestingly, I found that cranking the screw mount down too tightly on the Gen4 G17 caused the slide friction to increase (bad), so I intentionally backed it off a bit to "snug" from "crushingly tight", which I'm sure contributed to the failure. It's my understanding that tight WMLs on previous generation Glocks had the opposite effect on the slide, so this surprised me. I'm no expert here, however, so do further research before making a decision based on that observation. My sample size is one.

All told, I'm happy with the X400, with the reservation being that it needs to be secured carefully and checked frequently during heavy use. As a light and laser, it was a solid performer and the mount problems are unlikely to manifest in self-defense use if you set it up properly.


He seems like a genuinely good guy.

I agree, and this is a big endorsement of an instructor. That goes a long way in my book.