Snub Ammo: FBI load or Short Barrel Gold Dots

[nycnoob]

What is the recommended ammo for a Snub?

I assume the two main contenders are:

1) the FBI load: tried and true with lots of history and data

2) short barrel gold dots: a modern ammo with all the amazing ammo improvements that have been made over the past few years


Anyone with some actual knowledge on the subject?

[Chuck Haggard]

Wound ballistics wise the Gold Dot is ahead of the LSWCHP. The FBI loads from all of the various makers often fail to mushroom when launched from a snub.

Have you read this yet?;
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4336-BUG-s-380-ACP-vs-38-Sp


Although, one of the things I do with my snubs is to shoot for POA vs POI, which can vary widely from gun to gun at times. I would rather have a load that shoots to my sights than the absolute best bullet for terminal performance if the "best" bullet doesn't hit where I am aiming.

Tom Givens has written about this also, ref his Colt Cobras

[ACP230]

In the M38 I carry most often I load Gold Dot 135 grain JHPs.

I still have a speed strip, or two, of a LSWCHP around because that used to be my carry load.

Finished off a young deer with one of them years ago. It appeared to make a .38 caliber hole through the neck.
I dug a bit trying to find it in the ground but couldn't.
Shot nothing but paper with the 135 grain Gold Dot as yet.

[Prdator]

And dont over look the 110gr Corbon DPX load in 38. I belive this is Givens perfered carry load, and it and the 135 GD is my two go to loads.

[nycnoob]

And dont over look the 110gr Corbon DPX load in 38. I belive this is Givens perfered carry load, and it and the 135 GD is my two go to loads.

I thought there was some issues with rounds not expanding at the lower speeds of a revolver. I remember Farnam's informal rule from watching gelatin tests was to try and get 1000 ft/sec as nothing he saw worked well below that.

[Chuck Haggard]

The 110gr DPX expands very well from a snub.

Doc has tested the Critical Defense as well and it shows to be worth considering.



If the extra penetration isn't a factor for you the Buffalo Bore 150gr wadcutter is also a good load.

[JHC]

IIRC the Winchester PDX1 130 gr load (essentially a Ranger) has tested well. They are fairly widely available.

[Dave Williams]

Cor-Bon came to my dept for a gel test. The 110 .38 load wowed everyone. Everybody who carries a snub uses it. We also issue their 5.56 load for the ARs.

[nalesq]

Other pluses of the DPX round are relatively low recoil and pointy bullets that make reloading easier.

[shootist26]

how does that Corbon load compare to the 135gr +P Gold Dot in terms of felt recoil?

I haven't seen Corbon anywhere, but I can get 50rd LE boxes of 135gr +P Gold Dot locally, so that's what I use.

[nalesq]

how does that Corbon load compare to the 135gr +P Gold Dot in terms of felt recoil?.

My subjective experience of having shot both the DPX and the Gold Dots out of a 442 J-frame is that the DPX recoils noticeably less.

[DocGKR]

I love the Barnes 110 Tac-XP loaded to standard pressure--it is my favorite load for J-frames.

[Chuck Haggard]

Other pluses of the DPX round are relatively low recoil and pointy bullets that make reloading easier.

Very true.

[JodyH]

I carry the 110gr DPX or 130gr. Win Rangers in my all stainless 640 and the 148gr full wad cutter from Black-Hills in my scandium 360.
The DPX is way impressive in "Tactical Jell-O".

[Chuck Haggard]

I bought a bunch of the PDX1 .38 rounds to try, several of them are compressed loads that I am unwilling to risk shooting, and there appears to be two different types of primers in the ammo I have, within the same box that is. Good idea that has QC issues in my experience so far.

[Frank R]

I prefer the Cor-Bon DPX 110gr.+P.

[Chuck Haggard]

Found Tom's article in here;

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDAQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rangemaster.com%2Fpublication s%2Fnewsletters%2Fnewsletter-archives%2Fcategory%2F5-2009.html%3Fdownload%3D127%3A2009-05rm-newsletter&ei=j-YTUonaBeiEygGVoICoAQ&usg=AFQjCNGcpB5C_X0MujAiPEoIYGfEaB3mJw

[nycnoob]

Found Tom's article in here;

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDAQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rangemaster.com%2Fpublication s%2Fnewsletters%2Fnewsletter-archives%2Fcategory%2F5-2009.html%3Fdownload%3D127%3A2009-05rm-newsletter&ei=j-YTUonaBeiEygGVoICoAQ&usg=AFQjCNGcpB5C_X0MujAiPEoIYGfEaB3mJw

Thanks for finding this.

[ScotchMan]

Have any of you done the bullet-pulling test with those 110gr +Ps? Especially in really lightweight, like <13oz. revolvers?

Asking because lightweight bullets with +P ammo seems to be the worst for this. If you don't know what I'm talking about, the fear is that the recoil of the gun will cause the rounds still in the gun to pull the bullets out, which can lock up the action.

Try this; load 5 rounds, and fire 3 of them. Remove the remaining two rounds and compare OAL to fresh ammo. Fire the 4th, and do the same. It should be clear if it is happening or not.

This is something you should try with your snub regardless of the ammo you choose.

[JodyH]

Have any of you done the bullet-pulling test with those 110gr +Ps? Especially in really lightweight, like <13oz. revolvers?
Yes.
No issues in my 13oz scandium 360.

[Frank R]

Have any of you done the bullet-pulling test with those 110gr +Ps? Especially in really lightweight, like <13oz. revolvers?

Asking because lightweight bullets with +P ammo seems to be the worst for this. If you don't know what I'm talking about, the fear is that the recoil of the gun will cause the rounds still in the gun to pull the bullets out, which can lock up the action.

Try this; load 5 rounds, and fire 3 of them. Remove the remaining two rounds and compare OAL to fresh ammo. Fire the 4th, and do the same. It should be clear if it is happening or not.

This is something you should try with your snub regardless of the ammo you choose.


No problems with them in my LCR.

[Chuck Haggard]

I have only seen bullet pull in .357 loads and strangely enough in some non +P 158gr RNL that had zero crimp.

The heavier bullets actually seem more prone due to inertia. The Cor Bon DPX has never displayed bullet pull in my experience, likely due to a light bullet, longer bearing surface with the copper bullet, and a decent crimp.

[JodyH]

The worst bullet pull I've experienced was with 145gr. Winchester Silvertip .357mag, that's ok though because they were brutal out of the 360.

[FotoTomas]

During my revolver cop days the "FBI" load and the "Treasury" load were the goto choices for .38 Special revolvers. Most of us used the 110 gr JHP +P Treasury load out of adjustable sight revolvers and the 158 gr LSWHP +P load out of the snubs due to fixed sight regulation.

The snubs of the day were not +P approved and the use was limited to social carry as opposed to training and practice.

[KeeFus]

My 442 is older & not rated for +P loads. Is there a significant difference between the performance of a standard pressure Gold-Dot 38 vs. the +P's?

[Chuck Haggard]

My 442 is older & not rated for +P loads. Is there a significant difference between the performance of a standard pressure Gold-Dot 38 vs. the +P's?

I've not seen the Gold Dot .38s other than the 135gr expand reliably in testing.

For non +P snub ammo I'd go with the Critical Defense or wadcutters.

[KeeFus]

I've not seen the Gold Dot .38s other than the 135gr expand reliably in testing.

For non +P snub ammo I'd go with the Critical Defense or wadcutters.

Ok. I saw on the ATK/LE (http://le.atk.com/ammunition/speer/handgun/details.aspx?id=53722) webpage that they had a standard PSI Gold-Dot and was curious about it.

Ive had several boxes of 110gr Silver Tips that I have qualified with in the past but I want to get something different. I'll look into the Critical Defense loads...or maybe it's time I traded for a 442 that shoots +P.

[ScotchMan]

The FBI load (Winchester in this case) exhibited a little pull in my 342 11oz. J. Not enough to come close to locking up the action, but it was noticeable.

[LSP972]

The worst bullet pull I've experienced was with 145gr. Winchester Silvertip .357mag, that's ok though because they were brutal out of the 360.

When I "tested" my M-360PD in 2002, I tried seven different types of full-house .357 factory cartridges (including some of these noted in the quote; I used to carry it for a duty round in a 4" M-66).

The only .357 loads that did NOT display "bullet pull" were the 158gr and 130gr Federal offerings.

Moot point, really, because the brutal recoil convinced me to stay with +P .38s in that little beast... which I do to this day. It has been carried daily, as a BUG, for 11 years, and looks it. Not shot a whole lot, though... its uncomfortable even with my bunny fart reloads. I do most of my J frame practice with an older M-60 that I whacked the hammer spur on to mimic the M-360PD. Okay, I'm a bad person because I don't practice with the same gun and ammo that I carry. Sue me.

What I find interesting is that we are even HAVING this discussion. Guys... its a frigging belly gun! With a two-inch barrel. Any expansion you get will be purely coincidental, regardless of what latest/greatest toe-tagger special ammunition you're using.

Givens is right... penetration is what we need in these things. In my experience, that means either high velocity or heavy bullets. I can get close to the velocity with "magnums", but at a high cost in terms of controllability (more precisely, the lack thereof). That leaves the heavy bullet. I use the Gold Dot 135gr +P snubby load when I can get it, but that stuff is difficult to find, and since I rotate my carry ammunition every six months, a box doesn't last that long.

I have access to plenty of the Winchester +P 158gr LSWC hollow point, aka the "FBI load". So I use both, depending on availability of the Gold Dot... and I don't walk around worrying over what's in the Beast on any given day.

Bullet pull is a real problem in the flyweight revolvers. One should pay attention to that. And if the J frame is your primary (only) carry piece, okay, maybe you should pay closer attention to bullet selection. But at the distances these things are usually employed at, I wonder if it REALLY makes any difference at all.

.

[Dave Williams]

During the Cor-Bon gel shoot I shot Remington 158gr LSWCHP +P from my 442 at the sheet metal test and it bounced off the sheet metal. Interestingly Mike Shovel from Cor-Bon said he's seen .45acp 230 Gold Dot bounce off the sheet metal. Pretty shocking. Needless to say DPX sails on through.

[TGS]

You guys saying the FBI load doesn't expand reliably out of a snub....

Have you tried the Remington load, which has really soft lead? I can make it deform by pushing on it with my thumb, or dropping it on the floor. So, I'm sure you can understand that I have a real hard time thinking it won't mushroom at ~700-800fps....

Honest question, not trolling.

[DocGKR]

The Remington 158 gr +P LSWCHP definitely expands the best of that type, but NONE of them compare to more modern, robust expanding loads like the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP, Winchester 130 gr bonded +P JHP (RA38B), Barnes 110 gr Tac-XP all copper JHP (for ex. in the Corbon DPX loading), Hornady 110 gr standard pressure and +P Critical Defense.

[TGS]

The Remington 158 gr +P LSWCHP definitely expands the best of that type, but NONE of them compare to more modern, robust expanding loads like the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP, Winchester 130 gr bonded +P JHP (RA38B), Barnes 110 gr Tac-XP all copper JHP (for ex. in the Corbon DPX loading), Hornady 110 gr standard pressure and +P Critical Defense.

....and especially when shooting through barriers, from what I gather.

I thought that didn't apply to me, and then reality struck when I realized that the only two times I've established a master grip and/or drawn were when I was seated in a car, and would have had to shoot through auto glass. I switched to Hornady 110gr, but unfortunately I seem to have had nothing but defective rounds when purchasing Hornady pistol ammo spanning more than a year's time. Partially applied jackets, bullets not seated all the way causing the cylinder to not rotate, primers not seated, and so on. Every. Single. Box. Shortly after I got rid of the 642 for other reasons.

[Chuck Haggard]

Back in the day the rule of thumb for .38s was 158gr LSWCHP for social use, Winchester or Federal from 4" guns and Remington from 2" guns, due to how they made the bullets.

[LHS]

Out of curiosity, does anyone make jacketed full wadcutters?

[Chuck Haggard]

CCI used to, haven't seen that load in awhile though.

The Buffalo Bore hard cast wadcutter is just that, and if you want penetration you'll get it, big time.

[walkin' trails]

I haven't shot the lighter (95-110 grain) 38 Special loads for years, but my last experience was with a Colt Diamondback 4 inch and noted the group's were what I rconsidered excessyively wide at 7-10 yards. My dad noted the same out of 3 inch J-frames. How is the accuracy and grouping if these newer light bullets (I.e. the Cor Bon) thru, say a 2 inch J-frame? I haven't shot anything lighter than a 147 grain Hydra Shok +p+ thru mine for a while, but that round behaved and grouped much like the 158s. I know there are better performing bullets that the HS, but that is what I am allowed to carry at present in a 38

[Rich]

For SD in a J Frame AW

I like the standard 38spl 148 WC

Barnes 110 , Ranger 130 B , GD 135gr on speed strip or speed loaders


Shooting the 38spl 158gr SWC HP +P in a heavy S&W M649 357magum

The lead bullet jump the case enough to bind the cylinder up.

Its happen once in my life. And I have shot lots of lead down range.

Anyway I gave up the FBI load after that.


I call for the Doc to ask ATK /Federal to make a 38spl 147gr to 158 gr HST +P load

(like the old hydra shok 147 +P+ load)

I've happen to have / had several j frames in my life.

Everyone of them was POA/POI = 158gr


The target 148WC is pretty close to POA/POI

So a 147 - 158 gr HST would be nice load to have.

[Rich]

I haven't shot the lighter (95-110 grain) 38 Special loads for years, but my last experience was with a Colt Diamondback 4 inch and noted the group's were what I rconsidered excessyively wide at 7-10 yards. My dad noted the same out of 3 inch J-frames. How is the accuracy and grouping if these newer light bullets (I.e. the Cor Bon) thru, say a 2 inch J-frame? I haven't shot anything lighter than a 147 grain Hydra Shok +p+ thru mine for a while, but that round behaved and grouped much like the 158s. I know there are better performing bullets that the HS, but that is what I am allowed to carry at present in a 38

M37 38spl only
M640 and M649 in 357mag
M640 38spl+P
M637-1 38spl+P
M642-2 38spl+P

The 110 T SJHP loads shot low and never had good accuracy for me.

The 125gr SJHP still shot low and accuracy was better than the 110`s

The 158gr SWC shot POA/POI and the 148 WC was pretty close
Plus both loads could do the 5rd ragged hole at 7y


The 110 Barnes might be a longer bullet and do better than the SJHP 110 T load


I to would like a 147 to 158gr load

[Rich]

The worst bullet pull I've experienced was with 145gr. Winchester Silvertip .357mag, that's ok though because they were brutal out of the 360.

its pretty tuff even in a 4inch K frame like my M&P 13

[Al T.]

Out of curiosity, does anyone make jacketed full wadcutters?

Yes, Atlanta Arms loads a very nice 148 FMJ wadcutter. Looking on their website, I can't find it, but my LGS stocks it. Special order perhaps?

[LSP972]

Back in the day the rule of thumb for .38s was 158gr LSWCHP for social use

Yes. That load has dropped a lot of folks. Still will.

If I was carrying a J frame as a primary, I'd pay more attention to bullet selection. I don't, so I believe I'll stick with what I've been using.

.

[Cybrludite]

I've had no call to use them and can't speak from experience of their effect on anything but paper, but I carry the Buffalo Bore 158gr. LSWCHP +P in my S&W .38 Specials in the summer, and their hard lead 158gr. SWC when we get anything approximating cold weather down here. I haven't noticed any pulling from either the Model 36 or the Model 15 with either load.

[Chuck Haggard]

I've had no call to use them and can't speak from experience of their effect on anything but paper, but I carry the Buffalo Bore 158gr. LSWCHP +P in my S&W .38 Specials in the summer, and their hard lead 158gr. SWC when we get anything approximating cold weather down here. I haven't noticed any pulling from either the Model 36 or the Model 15 with either load.

I'm curious if you swap ammo because of a perceived need for more penetration in the winter?

[LHS]

Yes, Atlanta Arms loads a very nice 148 FMJ wadcutter. Looking on their website, I can't find it, but my LGS stocks it. Special order perhaps?

Neato. I wonder if they sell just the projos? I'm looking for some to roll my own.

[Al T.]

Not a clue. :(

Product number is (.38 Special) 148 gr. TCJ.

[Cybrludite]

I'm curious if you swap ammo because of a perceived need for more penetration in the winter?

You are correct, sir! Extra penetration, and no cavity to get blocked up. While I know intellectually that a flannel and a puffy down jacket do not constitute body armor, I figure it couldn't hurt.

[TGS]

You are correct, sir! Extra penetration, and no cavity to get blocked up. While I know intellectually that a flannel and a puffy down jacket do not constitute body armor, I figure it couldn't hurt.

If the cavity on the HP gets blocked up, you'll get the same result: limited to no expansion, with greater penetration.

[Chuck Haggard]

You are correct, sir! Extra penetration, and no cavity to get blocked up. While I know intellectually that a flannel and a puffy down jacket do not constitute body armor, I figure it couldn't hurt.

That is a common theme in my reading and talking to people.

The issue will be that your chosen winter load will get like 30+" into gel, not a bit of over penetration but lots of it, easily enough to go a block or more downrange and hit someone else with fatal results.

JHPs that display robust expansion tend to penetrate a bit more after heavy clothing, not less. Heavy clothing has zero effect on slowing a bullet down or causing decreased penetration in tissue.

Examples would be the 124gr+P Gold Dots we use at work. In the OISs we have had in the winter the bullets will go through a grown man's torso, exit, but fall to the ground within a few feet or get caught up in the clothing. In the summer they tend to stay inside and not exit at all.

[Nephrology]

The Remington 158 gr +P LSWCHP definitely expands the best of that type, but NONE of them compare to more modern, robust expanding loads like the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP, Winchester 130 gr bonded +P JHP (RA38B), Barnes 110 gr Tac-XP all copper JHP (for ex. in the Corbon DPX loading), Hornady 110 gr standard pressure and +P Critical Defense.

Hi Doc - do you endorse all of the listed loads? From previous reading I thought your recommendations were limited to the 135gr +P Gold Dots and the Barnes 110gr loads. If so, that opens up my selection a little bit. Im in the market for a few more boxes of .38 SPL defense loads.

[Chuck Haggard]

I'm not Doc, but he recommends those loads here;

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4336-BUG-s-380-ACP-vs-38-Sp

[Nephrology]

I'm not Doc, but he recommends those loads here;

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4336-BUG-s-380-ACP-vs-38-Sp

Great - that must be updated as I hadn't seen that, though I'd read the same thread before on m4c. Thanks!

[DocGKR]

The stickies are continually updated with new data...

[sheriffoconee]

Back in the day (70's and early 80's) we coppers carried one of two loads for shooting bandits. The "Secret Service" load, which was a 110 grn +p+ JHP, and the "FBI" load, which was, as we all know, the 158 grn LSWCHP. The largest agency in our area carried the lighter, SS load. MY EXPERIENCE was that the lighter bullet was always found in the bad guy, with limited expansion. The bad guys stopped, but all of them survived. Even the afternoon that a cop had her gun taken away and was used to shoot her and two other cops on the steps of the PD, all three coppers survived and had bullets removed from them.
The folks shot with the FBI loads all seemed to stop too, but we never recovered any bullets. I never saw X-rays of perps shot with FBI loads where we found the bullet, it went on thru. It also was my observation that most of them ended up in the morgue as opposed to the ER.
Yes, bullet technology has changed. I get that. But I am still wary of light bullets in 38 caliber revolvers, and I am even MORE leery of them in 2 inch revolvers. Bullets have changed, but humans and physics have not changed.
In my 38's I carry FBI loads. Most revolvers are regulated to shoot POA/POI with that load. They worked 35 years ago, they will work today. They have a LONG history of proven performance for a 38 fighting round, something the "new" ammo can't claim. If someone told me that in 10 minutes you are gonna have to go into a gunfight with your 2 inch Model 40 or Model 10, go load it, I would stuff it full of FBI loads. YMMV.
I think it is more important to have a gun than to overthink what ammo you have stuffed into it.

[Tamara]

My 2" Model 64 is loaded with Remington 158gr LSWCHP +P. I believe it to be adequate for that particular revolver's fairly narrow job description.

[Robinson]

My 4" K frame guns, which are my EDC when I am not carrying a 1911, are always loaded with the Remington 158 gr LSWCHP+P ammunition. If I could not get the Remington ammo I would probably opt for Buffalo Bore's offerings -- either the +P or standard pressure.

[Dave Williams]

I shot it in a gel shoot. The Remington load bounced off the sheet metal in the sheet metal test. Pretty surprising to say the least.

[sheriffoconee]

I shot it in a gel shoot. The Remington load bounced off the sheet metal in the sheet metal test. Pretty surprising to say the least.
Interesting. I worked an OIS where the copper was supposed to be shooting at a bad guy and ended up shooting the rear fender/deck lid of his patrol unit either 4 or 5 times with the FBI duty load. Those penetrated the car sheet metal pretty well actually. The bad guy gave up after being subjected to a lot of noise being projected in his direction. The copper who shot up his car got a medal. Weird times my friends

[Tamara]

I shot it in a gel shoot. The Remington load bounced off the sheet metal in the sheet metal test. Pretty surprising to say the least.

If I have to shoot my Model 64 through sheet metal, it will make the papers, and maybe the six-o-clock TeeWee news, too. ;)

[TR675]

If I have to shoot my Model 64 through sheet metal, it will make the papers, and maybe the six-o-clock TeeWee news, too. ;)

You never know when you're going to have to shoot a Decepticon.

[Chuck Haggard]

The three flavors of "FBI load", from Remington, Winchester and Federal all had bullets of different hardness, the Remington being the softest. If I was running a 4" duty gun I would prefer the Winchester, from a snub though I always carried the Remington. As noted this load tends to shoot to the sights from fixed sight guns.

As Doc has noted, none of these were likely to expand when going through heavy clothing, and from what I have seen the feedback from the street confirms this. I do note that Pat Rogers told me the NYPD issued LSWC +P even without being a hollow point worked pretty good in his experience.

I have seen several tests where the FBI loading has indeed bounced off of the sheet metal used for the gelatin test barrier.



I think it is more important to have a gun than to overthink what ammo you have stuffed into it.

^Quoted for truth^

[Totem Polar]

Totally OT, but, the first time I ever shot bowling pins, I was a church mouse-poor college student and I used what I had-which at the time was an NYPD overrun NY-1 4" model 64 (DAO, with the bead blast finish). In an effort to even the odds against the pins (and the 1911 shooters) I was running CorBon's version of the load under discussion: the now-discontinued 158gr LSWCHP pumped up to RCMP "+P+" specs and reportedly doing an easy 1000fps out of 4". Hottest load I could find for the occasion.

So I step up for my turn, surrounded by more experienced shooters and absolutely nervous as hell; recited my "front sight-press" mantra to myself and, at the appointed moment, proceeded to center punch the first pin, wondering if the .38 would take it off the table...

At which point the slug-now flatter than a 3-day old pint of guiness-came spinning directly back off the Kittening pin and into the top of my nose under the wire bridge of my shooting glasses, drawing blood. I shook it off and cleared the rest of the pins, immediately making a bunch of friends--including the range officer who was, incidentally, Rob Leahy of simply rugged holster fame before he moved from Idaho to Alaska to start a holster company.

Point is, who knows how bullets will react to hitting kittens; nothing is for certain (IMHO, I hasten to add; thankfully, that's the sum total of my experience getting hit by moving bullets).

[will_1400]

Totally OT, but, the first time I ever shot bowling pins, I was a church mouse-poor college student and I used what I had-which at the time was an NYPD overrun NY-1 4" model 64 (DAO, with the bead blast finish). In an effort to even the odds against the pins (and the 1911 shooters) I was running CorBon's version of the load under discussion: the now-discontinued 158gr LSWCHP pumped up to RCMP "+P+" specs and reportedly doing an easy 1000fps out of 4". Hottest load I could find for the occasion.

So I step up for my turn, surrounded by more experienced shooters and absolutely nervous as hell; recited my "front sight-press" mantra to myself and, at the appointed moment, proceeded to center punch the first pin, wondering if the .38 would take it off the table...

At which point the slug-now flatter than a 3-day old pint of guiness-came spinning directly back off the Kittening pin and into the top of my nose under the wire bridge of my shooting glasses, drawing blood. I shook it off and cleared the rest of the pins, immediately making a bunch of friends--including the range officer who was, incidentally, Rob Leahy of simply rugged holster fame before he moved from Idaho to Alaska to start a holster company.

Point is, who knows how bullets will react to hitting kittens; nothing is for certain (IMHO, I hasten to add; thankfully, that's the sum total of my experience getting hit by moving bullets).

That'll definitely wake you up in the morning... Glad you weren't hurt too badly.

[5pins]

Totally OT, but, the first time I ever shot bowling pins, I was a church mouse-poor college student and I used what I had-which at the time was an NYPD overrun NY-1 4" model 64 (DAO, with the bead blast finish). In an effort to even the odds against the pins (and the 1911 shooters) I was running CorBon's version of the load under discussion: the now-discontinued 158gr LSWCHP pumped up to RCMP "+P+" specs and reportedly doing an easy 1000fps out of 4". Hottest load I could find for the occasion.

So I step up for my turn, surrounded by more experienced shooters and absolutely nervous as hell; recited my "front sight-press" mantra to myself and, at the appointed moment, proceeded to center punch the first pin, wondering if the .38 would take it off the table...

At which point the slug-now flatter than a 3-day old pint of guiness-came spinning directly back off the Kittening pin and into the top of my nose under the wire bridge of my shooting glasses, drawing blood. I shook it off and cleared the rest of the pins, immediately making a bunch of friends--including the range officer who was, incidentally, Rob Leahy of simply rugged holster fame before he moved from Idaho to Alaska to start a holster company.

Point is, who knows how bullets will react to hitting kittens; nothing is for certain (IMHO, I hasten to add; thankfully, that's the sum total of my experience getting hit by moving bullets).

Was it could out? I’ve noticed that bullets have a greater tendency bounce back when the pins are could.

[5pins]

My 442 is older & not rated for +P loads. Is there a significant difference between the performance of a standard pressure Gold-Dot 38 vs. the +P's?

I thought all 442’s where rated for +P. How old is yours?

[LSP972]

I thought all 442’s where rated for +P.

Nope. That began around 1995/96 with the new "magnum" frame.

My 442 was purchased in 1993 and is not +P rated. Understand that you can shoot a limited number of +Ps in these pre-95 J frames, but keep it sensible. Exactly how many depends, of course, on many factors.

I have a 1965 vintage Model 37, acquired in 1979 when I decided that the Model 60 I had been lugging around as a back-up/off duty piece was a bit heavy for those tasks. I carried it (EVERY day), practiced a bit, and qualified annually with that non +P-rated AirWeight continually until 1992, when LSP552 and I acquired the re-issued Model 642. That M-642 replaced the M-37, going through the same use cycles, until it was "retired" ten years later by the M-360PD.

Each of those two guns has fired several thousand rounds over those years; mainly mid-range wadcutters with a smattering of 158gr RNL and a handful of +P "duty" rounds. Neither shows any sign of distress, both are still "in time" and do not show any significant endshake… yoke or cylinder. In fact, when I retired I cleaned up the M-37 and had it Black T'ed. It looks like a new gun now, and is put up for a rainy day.

That afore-mentioned M-442 was purchased for my father, who carried it a lot but rarely shot it. When he passed, I did some whittling on it and had it Black T'ed as well; it too is put up for hard times.

Bottom line here… any pre-95 "non-magnum" alloy frame Chief Special variant should not be shot with a lot of high pressure ammunition. Some do it, and will get away with it for a time. YMMV.

.

[5pins]

That’s right, I remember now, they did change the frame. I got mine in 95 IIRC and it’s rated for +P.

[DocGKR]

Why would any sane person want to shoot .357 Mag out of a J-frame???

[TGS]

Why would any sane person want to shoot .357 Mag out of a J-frame???

For real.

My 642 with the .38 FBI load was hellacious compared to my Ruger SP101 with full house 1700fps, 125gr .357.

So, I can't imagine that thing with 357, even commercial weak-sauce 357.

[Nephrology]

Why would any sane person want to shoot .357 Mag out of a J-frame???

Masochism, and a fixation with excessively fast cartridges.

[Chuck Haggard]

Masochism, and a fixation with excessively fast cartridges.


You rang?


And yeah, I'm pretty sure some of my problems in life now can be traced back to doing things like shooting enough magnum ammo through a couple of 640s to knock them out of time.

The uber lightweight guns when shot with full house ammo feel rather like a baton strike in the palm of your hand.


Knowing then what I know now I would have stuck with as much standard pressure 158gr LSWC as I could buy, bypass the magnums completely, and call it good.

[Moonshot]

I've shot the 110gr Corbon DPX and the 135gr Gold Dot through my 642-1. Both +p loads. While it wasn't exactly fun, it wasn't too bad either. I would keep the round count to 5 or 10 at most, as this is more likely what I might expect to shoot in a real self-defense scenario. If I am going to shoot an extended session I use standard pressure loads.

Now, I've also shot some old 180gr Black Tallon 357's out of a 2" SP101. That was not fun. I felt like I was shooting a derringer, because after two rounds I was through shooting.

[1slow]

Scandium 11oz .357s make S&W .500 4" seem mild.
For me anything past .38 sp +p in an Ti J frame is too much. In a 640 the .357 is right on the edge of too much.

[Greg Bell]

Years ago my buddy bought a Scandium .357 we affectionately called "the wrist buster." He kept bitching about how much it kicked. I said something to the effect that "recoil is in your mind." Next time we were at the range he offered the pistol up. I shot about three rounds through it and said it felt like I was slapping a tree with my hand as hard as I could. He had loaded it with Cor-bon +P rounds. :p

[LHS]

You rang?


And yeah, I'm pretty sure some of my problems in life now can be traced back to doing things like shooting enough magnum ammo through a couple of 640s to knock them out of time.

The uber lightweight guns when shot with full house ammo feel rather like a baton strike in the palm of your hand.


Knowing then what I know now I would have stuck with as much standard pressure 158gr LSWC as I could buy, bypass the magnums completely, and call it good.

Several years ago, I attended a BUG class with my 642 and a half-case of standard-pressure wadcutters. We shot about 400 rounds that day. The next day I couldn't close my hands, and I was typing with two fingers. I can't imagine doing that with +p loads, much less magnums.

[Chuck Haggard]

Several years ago, I attended a BUG class with my 642 and a half-case of standard-pressure wadcutters. We shot about 400 rounds that day. The next day I couldn't close my hands, and I was typing with two fingers. I can't imagine doing that with +p loads, much less magnums.

Exactly.

"Knowing then....." I woulda kept my 640 and invested heavily in standard pressure 158gr LSWC by the case when it was cheap (remember those days, baby Odin weeps now....), and added the 317 in for fun and even more trigger time, and carried my 642s with wadcutters.

[LSP972]

I bought a 317 for that purpose; cheap practice. Even with an Apex kit, the DA pull was horrific; plus the little critter shot 5" high at five yards. That got worse the farther away the target was.

My "practice load" for the .38 J's is a 110gr Remington JHP bullet in front of 4.2 grains of N340. Its tolerable in The Beast (M360PD), at least for 50 rounds, without numbing my hand. I practice with it almost exclusively off-hand-only "pointer fire", as it is carried in the left front pocket and is my primary for arms-reach encounters; secondary otherwise. I carry 135gr +P Gold Dots in it.

I still have the first M-60 I bought back in 1978. The hammer spur is bobbed (as is the M-360PD's hammer), and I use that M-60 for extended work-outs. I can shoot the above reload all day in it without distress. I still have a bunch of factory 148gr wadcutters for when my reload supply runs low and I can't (or won't) change the Dillon over to crank out some more. For some reason, those Remington 110gr JHPs were available dirt cheap in quantity a few years back, so I stocked up. I'm getting to the end of them, so I'll need to decide on a replacement; probably one of Donnie Miculek's (Bayou Bullets) cast/coated offerings.

.

[GJM]

I bought a 317 for that purpose; cheap practice. Even with an Apex kit, the DA pull was horrific; plus the little critter shot 5" high at five yards. That got worse the farther away the target was.
.

you need the adjustable sight, 3.something barrel 317. I have one that shoots great, pre-lock, decent action. I use it for training and harvesting small game.

[LSP972]

you need the adjustable sight, 3.something barrel 317. I have one that shoots great, pre-lock, decent action. I use it for training and harvesting small game.

I thought of that, but it would preclude practicing presentations from the pocket holster I use.

.

[LHS]

you need the adjustable sight, 3.something barrel 317. I have one that shoots great, pre-lock, decent action. I use it for training and harvesting small game.

We used to use one of those as a match RO's snake gun back home. We'd run a match in the creek every August (it started under USPSA, as a way to piss off the guys with space guns, and continued when we transitioned to IDPA because, well, August is bloody hot and it's nice to get in the creek), and we did have snakes around at times. So at least one of the ROs would have a snake gun. One guy had a 66 with some snake shot, but when that little 317 kit gun came out, that became the favored blaster for such purposes. I always wanted one, but damn, they were rude pricey for a .22 wheelgun. I feel about that gun the way I feel about the little Beretta Cheetahs: I'd love to have one, but not for what they're asking for them.

[1986s4]

I bought a 317 for that purpose; cheap practice. Even with an Apex kit, the DA pull was horrific; plus the little critter shot 5" high at five yards. That got worse the farther away the target was.

My "practice load" for the .38 J's is a 110gr Remington JHP bullet in front of 4.2 grains of N340. Its tolerable in The Beast (M360PD), at least for 50 rounds, without numbing my hand. I practice with it almost exclusively off-hand-only "pointer fire", as it is carried in the left front pocket and is my primary for arms-reach encounters; secondary otherwise. I carry 135gr +P Gold Dots in it.

I still have the first M-60 I bought back in 1978. The hammer spur is bobbed (as is the M-360PD's hammer), and I use that M-60 for extended work-outs. I can shoot the above reload all day in it without distress. I still have a bunch of factory 148gr wadcutters for when my reload supply runs low and I can't (or won't) change the Dillon over to crank out some more. For some reason, those Remington 110gr JHPs were available dirt cheap in quantity a few years back, so I stocked up. I'm getting to the end of them, so I'll need to decide on a replacement; probably one of Donnie Miculek's (Bayou Bullets) cast/coated offerings.

.

His 160gr RN's are very good. I use VV N320 for a very clean load out of a 3" barrel.

[LSP972]

His 160gr RN's are very good. I use VV N320 for a very clean load out of a 3" barrel.


What charge weight? I'm using 4.5 of N320 with these 110gr JHPs. Very mild, and clean. For as much as that stuff costs, it ought to clean the gun for me…

.

[DBR]

Sorry, a bit late to this thread. One thing to keep in mind is heavier bullets are usually more efficient in shorter barrels because they have less powder to burn. Over the past several years, I tried most of the loads mentioned in the posts. I have settled on Buffalo Bore 150gr hard cast wad-cutters as my "in gun load" for my J Frames and Corbon DPX as my reloads. The BB load is most likely to give adequate penetration and track straight no matter the clothing or angle of the shot. IMHO DPX is easiest for a reload with very good performance but maybe not adequate penetration in all situations and it can track off entry axis. What's the point of a perfect hit if the bullet slews off to somewhere else inside the target?.

From what I have read, human skin is equivalent to 3"-4" of 10% gel coming and going so even with 20" of penetration in bare 10% gel it is not likely a bullet will exit a bad guy with enough energy to be seriously dangerous on the backside. I have a hard time worrying about over penetration when statistically more than 50% of shots fired are clean misses in most encounters.

[DocGKR]

Living skin is roughly equivalent to 4" of muscle tissue, NOT gel, on the EXIT side of the body, NOT on the ENTRANCE side.

[Chuck Haggard]

And because of that, I have noticed that even in frontal shots where people aren't usually that thick, bullets that consistently hit in the 14-15" range in gelatin tend to either exit and fall on the ground or be caught just under the skin on the backside of the wound track. Our duty ammo consistently exhibits that behavior.

[Kevin B.]

And because of that, I have noticed that even in frontal shots where people aren't usually that thick, bullets that consistently hit in the 14-15" range in gelatin tend to either exit and fall on the ground or be caught just under the skin on the backside of the wound track. Our duty ammo consistently exhibits that behavior.

What is your duty ammo?

[Chuck Haggard]

9mm 124gr +P Gold Dot

[KeeFus]

And because of that, I have noticed that even in frontal shots where people aren't usually that thick, bullets that consistently hit in the 14-15" range in gelatin tend to either exit and fall on the ground or be caught just under the skin on the backside of the wound track. Our duty ammo consistently exhibits that behavior.

Like wise here, albeit .45ACP. I know of two fairly recent OIS wherein both officers fired 230gr Gold Dot. The projectiles either stayed in the body or were caught up in the clothing adjacent to the exit wound.

[DBR]

Living skin is roughly equivalent to 4" of muscle tissue, NOT gel, on the EXIT side of the body, NOT on the ENTRANCE side.

Thank you Doc for the correction.

[farscott]

Several years ago, I attended a BUG class with my 642 and a half-case of standard-pressure wadcutters. We shot about 400 rounds that day. The next day I couldn't close my hands, and I was typing with two fingers. I can't imagine doing that with +p loads, much less magnums.

That is why my J-frames all morphed into SP-101s and why I have experimented heavily with Jack Weigand's Hybra-Port "Tame the Beast" guns. I can now shoot 158-grain wadcutters at over 1000 fps out of a small snub gun without feeling like my hand was whacked with a hammer. The 158-grain load is due to that being the load to which the SP-101 sights are regulated and my desire for penetration with a snub gun.

Funny story: I was shooting with some friends and family and was challenged to hit a coffee can target about fifty yards away with my three-inch Hybra-Ported SP-101 as my sister-in-law could not believe that anyone could shoot a small revolver that well. That gun is DAO. I carefully aimed, carefully squeezed off a shot, and hit the center of the can. Trying not to look as shocked as I was, I holstered the gun and walked away. To this day, she still talks about that "great shot" and my reaction to it. She still thinks it was no big deal for me.

[Chuck Haggard]

That's a little more weight than some of us want to pack, and I stay away from ported guns due to issue when shooting from the "2".

[Moonshot]

Originally Posted by LHS

Several years ago, I attended a BUG class with my 642 and a half-case of standard-pressure wadcutters. We shot about 400 rounds that day. The next day I couldn't close my hands, and I was typing with two fingers. I can't imagine doing that with +p loads, much less magnums.

What grips were you using on your 642? I took a snubby class this past summer, but I went through about 300 rounds of 130gr standard pressure FMJs. I had planned on buying a steel snubby (640-1 or SP101) just for use in a training environment if for no other, but instead I bought a set of Hogue Monogrips for my 642-1. Made a world of difference. My hand felt fine both during the class and after. No issues at all.

[farscott]

That's a little more weight than some of us want to pack, and I stay away from ported guns due to issue when shooting then from the "2".

I respect your views on porting (indeed this was a huge concern for me when I started with the SP-101 in 1995); however, my experience with the Hybra-Port from retention with multiple revolvers has been positive. I have had more issues with cylinder/barrel gap flung debris on the SP-101s than with the porting. The weight is indeed more than a J-frame, but it does make practice much more pleasant and doable. Like much in life, firearms choices are compromises, and I have decided to go with porting and a bit more weight as a means to get better results. I also tend to carry the SP-101 as a primary in warm weather, so the extra weight is not the issue it would be as BUG in a vest, in a pocket, or on an ankle.

[LSP972]

Made a world of difference. My hand felt fine both during the class and after. No issues at all.

I used to put a pair of Pachmyar "Compac" rubber stocks on my AirWeight snubby when qualification day came around. I carried it, as a BUG/off duty piece, with the issue skinny wood stocks and a Tyler T-grip adapter; not fun to shoot over a 50 round qual course. Of course, back then I never practiced with the thing, but cheating with those huge Goodyears made a full day of shooting everything in my "arsenal", for score, more tolerable.

Nowadays, my J frame wears a pair of Ahrends stocks, which are even more concealable than the magna/T-grip combo, and I practice using bunny fart reloads. Yeah, still cheating... what can I say...

I still have those big Goodyears, and use them occasionally when working with a nimrod and their J frame. If I had to qualify with one still, using service ammunition, or take a class, etc., I'd put 'em back on in a heartbeat.

Its tough being non-tactical, but somebody has to do it... :)

.

[SAWBONES]

That is why my J-frames all morphed into SP-101s and why I have experimented heavily with Jack Weigand's Hybra-Port "Tame the Beast" guns. I can now shoot 158-grain wadcutters at over 1000 fps out of a small snub gun without feeling like my hand was whacked with a hammer. The 158-grain load is due to that being the load to which the SP-101 sights are regulated and my desire for penetration with a snub gun.


First post here, agree with the above, both as regards the Hybra-porting (which, contrary to gun-commando lore, does not blow crap at the shooter, even with the gun held up 3" from the face while shooting), and in regard to the POI being matched to POA for 158gr 357 Magnum (but not with .38 Special) loads, in the SP101s.

My concerns with employing the SP101 and these loads for daily CCW are: the potential for over-penetration in an urban setting, and the difficulty in making fast follow-up shots.

[Chuck Haggard]

My experience with various porting systems in not stated in theory. I have worked with a number of ported guns over the years. Everything is a compromise, being aware of the pros and cons is how one makes intelligent decisions.

Snubs are for me a BUG. Thus I want them light for ankle or pocket carry. If I was carrying one as a primary (and I have), it would be a 640 or my old Speed Six.

Porting subtracts from some of what I would want to do with my snubs, like contact shots. It would be value added if a bad guy was grabbing for your gun when you fired. Kinda makes the barrel harder to hold on to.



I also used to cheat with my 640, would often put the Decelerator grips on for quals. Had I known then what I know now I may have stuck with all bunny fart loads all the time and called it good. I really miss the cartilage in my elbow.

Breaking yourself by doing stoopid stuff ain't tactical.



I would also be hesitant to use a heavier loaded 158gr non expanding bullet as a primary defense load in an urban setting. Such bullets easily get into the 30" range in gelatin testing. That's more than one person, perhaps more than two, worth of penetration. To give context, it's a level above what high penetration loads such as 9mm FMJ can do, and I have seen cases where 9mm ball rounds easily went through two people and kept going.

[farscott]

[snip]

Porting subtracts from some of what I would want to do with my snubs, like contact shots. It would be value added if a bad guy was grabbing for your gun when you fired. Kinda makes the barrel harder to hold on to.

[snip]
I would also be hesitant to use a heavier loaded 158gr non expanding bullet as a primary defense load in an urban setting. Such bullets easily get into the 30" range in gelatin testing. That's more than one person, perhaps more than two, worth of penetration. To give context, it's a level above what high penetration loads such as 9mm FMJ can do, and I have seen cases where 9mm ball rounds easily went through two people and kept going.

I must admit that I do not understand why porting subtracts from contact shots. I would think that porting would not be an issue in a contact shot, but I may misreading what you wrote.

My use of the SP-101 is in a rural environment, so the penetration concern is somewhat lessened though not eliminated.

[Chuck Haggard]

I must admit that I do not understand why porting subtracts from contact shots. I would think that porting would not be an issue in a contact shot, but I may misreading what you wrote.

My use of the SP-101 is in a rural environment, so the penetration concern is somewhat lessened though not eliminated.

A hard contact shot directs the "muzzle blast" forwards, which greatly increases the wounding effect, porting vents it sideways from the barrel.

In a more rural setting ammo such as what you describe should be fine. I know Caleb has written a bit on carrying the Double Tap version a hard cast 158gr LSWC for a similar job. Knowing what you are carrying is a plus, many people have no idea.



I often carry a 4" 681 .357mag when I am in the woods. I will switch my deer hunting ammo, 158gr Gold Dots or XTPs (both shoot to my sights), out of the gun when I head back to town. Normally I'll have 158gr LSWCHP +p for the stop and get coffee mission. I may have a greater chance of running into an armed robbery than other folks do.

[farscott]

Thanks for the explanation on contact shots. I was not aware that the porting would lessen the wounding effect on such a shot, but it does make sense as some the energy is diverted from the target due to the porting.

[SAWBONES]

After reliability, my primary concerns with ANY gun employed for CCW (or, were I a LEO, duty) are accuracy and precision.
Caliber & bullet type are secondary.

I want to have certainty that the round I shoot will place the bullet where I mean it to go, should I ever be in the position of having to shoot "for real".

With my particular 2.25" barrel SP101, the 158gr JHC ("jacketed hollow cone") 357 Magnum load from Buffalo Bore shoots right to POA at 10 yards.
Nonetheless, I rarely carry the gun in the city since I believe it's likely to penetrate more than necessary. (I have some doubt that the JHC bullet would actually expand.) It's certainly slow to make a second shot, too.

As to issues with porting, mine has the Hybra-Port type done by Marc Morganti.
I know it must lessen the muzzle velocity somewhat, but I'm personally pleased with the lack of blow-back (I've held the porting next to my face while shooting, and am
convinced that this load is inoffensive that way) and lack of flash (and yes, I've tested it in dim ambient lighting), so I carry that load and no other in that gun when I'm outside the city.

[Chuck Haggard]

On the fixed sight guns I find that a number of the 158gr loads will often shoot to the sights. Many of the old school 158gr loads are actually pretty decent in the FBI testing, and will expand even from the shorter barrels.

Not sure what bullet BB is using, but I know the Winchester, Federal and Remington 158gr JHPs ain't bad.

[SAWBONES]

And to chime in on the OP's topic, I've found that the .38 Special 158gr+P LSWCHPs shoot to POA in the older steel 1 7/8" barrel S&W J-frame snubbies made for the .38 Special round.

The Remington load uses a softer lead bullet, and is really pretty clean, as well as quite acceptably accurate. The Winchester bullet is harder, and it's a surprisingly "dirty" round (lots of smoke and debris in the air with each shot).

Haven't shot the Federal 158gr+P LSWCHP load.

Dunno why, but in my hands the lightweight titanium-frame and scandium-frame S&W 1 7/8" barrel snubbies (they all have "the lock"), which are ostensibly made for shooting .357 Magnum, do NOT shoot to POA with the 158gr .38 Special loads.

[jh9]

Dunno why, but in my hands the lightweight titanium-frame and scandium-frame S&W 1 7/8" barrel snubbies (they all have "the lock"), which are ostensibly made for shooting .357 Magnum, do NOT shoot to POA with the 158gr .38 Special loads.

Both my Colt Agent and Ruger LCR shoot nearly a foot high at 25 feet with my 158gr reloads (4.7 Unique; approx 130PF from my 686-5). They're much closer with 125s. Should probably try some 110s through them.

[tcRenegade]

Sell it and buy a REAL revolver!

[Chuck Haggard]

Sell it and buy a REAL revolver!


Brother, I suggest you read more and post less.

[TCinVA]

Sell it and buy a REAL revolver!

The purpose of Pistol-Forum is to engender useful discussion on topics of interest to the membership. This sort of post contributes nothing to the discussion or to the greater knowledge on the topic.

If you have something useful to say, then by all means share with the group.

If not, then keep quiet.

[Rich]

Why would any sane person want to shoot .357 Mag out of a J-frame???

I will even do you one further.
M19 -4
M13-4
M686 -4
GP100 -3inch
M640/649 357mag

I found I could shoot faster and have a tighter group using 38spl +P ! Than the so called famous 125SLHP at 1450-1500FPS! slower time larger group


Doing the bill drill with a 3inch GP100 and using 38spl +P is like cheating!

I sometimes think of dumping my Sig P229 for a 3inch GP100 or 686 no lock and of coarse I will carry my M642 as a bug.

[Rich]

And because of that, I have noticed that even in frontal shots where people aren't usually that thick, bullets that consistently hit in the 14-15" range in gelatin tend to either exit and fall on the ground or be caught just under the skin on the backside of the wound track. Our duty ammo consistently exhibits that behavior.

that's good to know. I guess even the ranger/ PDX1 bonded would do the same

[Chuck Haggard]

that's good to know. I guess even the ranger/ PDX1 bonded would do the same

Most likely so I would bet.

Almost every single OIS we have had with the 124gr +P Gold Dot has shown similar performance.