LEOs and military, please review this....

[TGS]

For you experienced LEOs and military types, I'm wondering what your take is on this plan. This seems like a very, very bad idea to me. Care under fire obviously has a different meaning to these people than what I learned in the military.

http://m.springfieldnewssun.com/news/news/local/emts-train-to-enter-active-shooter-scenes/nZQJd/

1. The first priority in care under fire is fire superiority.
2. A security plan to treat the wounded is necessary.
3. Without these, you're jeopardizing your team to sustain more casualties, thus further complicating things and likely in the end, causing more casualties. The worst thing you can happen is to have the rescuer go down.

This plan, to me, seems like it ignores these 3 points or at the very least severely underestimates the ability for SHTF, and overestimates their team's abilities. In a combat situation, people will die. That's a realization that I don't think these guys have come to. There's no sense in sending under-resourced teams in to further get put into the meat grinder. More over, I think a level 3 vest and 8 hours of training is an embarrassment for the mission they're proposing.

In short, what I see happening with this plan is this:
http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q758/Finkerfuggles/Random/Marines_zpsa6dd21b4.jpg (http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/Finkerfuggles/media/Random/Marines_zpsa6dd21b4.jpg.html)

While the bravery and resolve of the pictured can never be questioned, it's not an example of what you want to do. While certain situations and personal motivations may justify it in the heat of the moment, I think it's irresponsible to plan and train towards reckless casevac and care under fire.

[Chuck Haggard]

This is why the first thing you do in most TCCC cases is kill the bad guy/s as quickly as possible so you don't have more casualties and you can work on your people without getting shot.

[TGS]

This is why the first thing you do in most TCCC cases is kill the bad guy/s as quickly as possible so you don't have more casualties and you can work on your people without getting shot.

Do you think a two person team, medic + LEO, is an adequate solution for providing care and security through an active shooter scenario?

Currently, the way our county SERT team works is to have one team be the shooter team, and another team to protect the medic and patient (in NJ the medic is not deputized). We're talking 4-5 dudes for the security, however......not one. Of course there's some significant differences as this is the SERT serving warrants or responding in an organized fashion to an incident, not an ad-hoc scramble team thrown together for an active shooter.

[Chuck Haggard]

Depends, on a lot of things. Maybe, maybe not.

[KeeFus]

Do you think a two person team, medic + LEO, is an adequate solution for providing care and security through an active shooter scenario?

Currently, the way our county SERT team works is to have one team be the shooter team, and another team to protect the medic and patient (in NJ the medic is not deputized). We're talking 4-5 dudes for the security, however......not one. Of course there's some significant differences as this is the SERT serving warrants or responding in an organized fashion to an incident, not an ad-hoc scramble team thrown together for an active shooter.

We had an active shooter refresher last week. EMS folk and the like are not allowed into the building until it is determined that they can get in and out quickly and safely. Our instructions are to set up an area for triage where EMS has easy access to the patients from the exterior of the building. Ideally we would have rescue teams that would be responsible for gathering the wounded and getting them to the triage area...but they only respond to the interior when advised to do so by the search/arrest teams(s) and when they enter they are escorted by a team of at least 4 people.

I think sending EMS into such a situation with the hopes that they dont encounter the shooter is an accident waiting to happen.

[DocGKR]

Those are IIIa vests, not III--big difference. In addition, a two man team, with only one of them armed, is in fact a ONE man team in an active shooter event. Need more shooters and some shields....

[TGS]

Those are IIIa vests, not III--big difference.

I realize that. The point I was trying to convey is that putting someone in body armor does not mean they're now good-to-go in a combat/tactical environment.....it takes more than that. Armor is just a 2nd chance, it's not suppose to be your actual security plan or hope for survival.

That's what I was trying to convey, apologies for not being 100% technically correct on stating III vs IIIa.

[will_1400]

Jeez, I'm a desk jockey and even I can tell this "plan" is a Grade A Charlie Foxtrot waiting to happen. Noble as the idea sounds, you're useless if you get yourself shot trying to pull someone out of the fire like that and now we've got two (or three or four) wounded instead of one.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I guess I'm reading the article differently than y'all.

What I read is that while the LEO's are bypassing wounded while they do seek-and-destroy, these guys have volunteered to enter behind them and treat said wounded, instead of waiting, per the article, upwards of an hour or more to get an "all clear" that the entire building is safe and secure.
I'm not a hose-dragger, but just how much more dangerous is it than entering a burning building?
I'm unaware of any active shooter incident where the perp circled around behind the advancing guns and carried on, but I'd love to be enlightened if such has been the case.
Active shooter response is not the same as MOUT....it has not taken a force 4-9 times in size to route dug-in defenders.

I read that these medics went in in teams of two, not that they were paired with an LEO.

[Kyle Reese]

Not really sure what to make of this statement, since shooters in such a scenario can draw a bead on a target in an instant...


Paramedics won’t have any weapons, instead relying on the vigilance of their two-person teams to stay out of the shooter’s path

If these teams are going to properly employed in conjunction with SWAT or other armed LE response units, the idea may have merit. The key will be the level and quality of training that they receive and how they work with LE first responder elements.

[TGS]

I read that these medics went in in teams of two, not that they were paired with an LEO.

The guy who showed me the article corrected me on this. Which to me seems like an even worse idea, because they have no security at all.

[Josh Runkle]

So, we're basically discussing EMS doing a TEMS job without TEMS training?

I mean, Tac Medics either stage nearby and wait for all clear, or go in armed with training (but towards the rear of the team, not because they aren't "as good", but because you want the guy who can stop bleeding to not get shot). When they go in armed with training, most follow TCCC/PHTLS, which would be take the bad guy out first, then treat wounded.

EMS entering a scene should either be given an all clear/scene safe, or they should be TEMS actively seeking to destroy the enemy, and then treat the wounded.

Essentially: the bad guy always needs to be taken out. If there are more people on scene, and we are discussing EMS receiving training to do something during an incident, they should be trained how to help take out the bad guy.

[imp1295]

FM 4-02.2 Medical Evacuation - DISTRIBUTION RESTRICTION: Approved for public release; distribution is unlimited.

3-19. It is essential that the evacuation plan for all combat operations be well planned, coordinated, and
disseminated. In designing the medical evacuation plan, the medical planner should consider the
following:
• Casualty collection points normally are predesignated along the axis of advance or evacuation
routes.
• Forward of the BAS, the trauma specialist, CLS, and combat troops take casualties to the CCPs.

Casualty Collection Points

4-32. During the offense, CCPs may be used to avoid hampering the movement of the maneuver elements.
In fast-moving situations, preplanned CCPs are included in the HSS plan and activated based on the
crossing of phase lines, upon the occurrence of predetermined events, or on the execution of other control
measures. It may be necessary to set up multiple CCPs for each phase of an operation. Rotating the use of
these points precludes the enemy from using them to pinpoint maneuver elements or from attracting enemy
fires. When the situation permits, medical evacuation of patients from CCPs, or AXPs may be
accomplished by AAs.

All in support of previous points made. Breach, Seize, Secure, Evacuate. And I'm just an old infantryman...

[Cookie Monster]

I don't know if this is right or wrong, I'm no LEO or military or anything. Taken a bunch of gun classes and a bunch of medical classes.

But after listening to the dispatch and radio traffic of police and medical from the Aurora Shooting, we got to figure out something different then staging EMS for 45 minutes to an hour and having cops move and drive the injured to the ER.

Cookie Monster