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GardoneVT
08-16-2013, 12:59 PM
To understand my point, we must first discuss some personal history. I grew up in suburban Chicago Illinois, so guns for me were a theoretical consideration. That ended when I joined the Air Force at the age of 20, and ever since then I've been making up for "lost time" as it were.

That is, until this year. I did something different ; I actually started consistently shooting the guns I bought. And I noticed some troubling indicators. I owned a lot of nice , cool hardware-but I couldn't afford to shoot half of the guns, being .45 ACP pistols. The other ones felt nice when dry firing, but actually "running" them revealed ergonomic problems which were hampering my performance. Essentially, I realized that I was a collector who only pretended to shoot.

Since then I've traded some hardware , ditched the deadweight, and "standardized" to the 92FS platform-that's my ideal pistol of choice, and have progressed training wise to the point where I could shoot it accurately blind if I had to. I'm evaluating my next purchase, and in considering my options i'm at the point of not even WANTING another gun if its not a 92FS.

Why? Because training is more important then hardware.

Is this a better mindset, or am I being too exclusionary? Note that I'm not stating the Beretta is the best handgun ever, but for my needs and ergos its MY ideal choice.

JAD
08-16-2013, 01:06 PM
It's hard to imagine a compelling reason for branching out, unless the size of the 92 prevents you from carrying it all the time for some reason.

DGI
08-16-2013, 02:04 PM
It's hard to imagine a compelling reason for branching out, unless the size of the 92 prevents you from carrying it all the time for some reason.

I agree... Beware of the man with "one" gun indeed.

If you did want variety, Im sure if you stuck with a DA/SA platform, you should be ok going back and fourth between a new pistol and your 92s.

Sigs have that wacky decocker and alternate slide lock location... HK has the mag release on the trigger guard... Things to consider when branching out, if you decide to do so.

Nephrology
08-16-2013, 02:37 PM
I've standardized on 9mm Glocks and am slowly moving into .38/.357 S&W revolvers.

It's definitely helped me fiscally and logistically. I also now have 2 sets of full sized pistols and 2 sets of smaller concealed carry options. I am quite happy to have standardized on these firearms.

There's no harm in moving into other guns eventually but owning, shooting and maintaining 2 different redundant platforms (i.e. Glocks and M&Ps, SIG P22xs and Berettas, etc) really doesn't do much for me. I probably wouldn't even be interested in Smiths if it wasnt for the total invisibility of the J frame on my waistline.

As others have noted, the only reason to branch out is if the 92 series is not able to fulfill a specific and necessary role for you. Personally I would have a hard time carrying a 92 24/7. If you can pull it off - rock on.

Sal Picante
08-16-2013, 03:06 PM
Getting into competition, the costs are enormous, still, the cost of training and ammo dwarf the cost of the initial handgun purchase.

Just some perspective.

ToddG
08-16-2013, 03:21 PM
The first three years of my shooting life, I owned nine guns from seven different manufacturers. Then I discovered professional firearms training, sold most of my pistols, and spent all that money on classes & ammo.

I will forever live in awe of guys like Ken Hackathorn and Rob Haught who have gun collections that number well into triple digits and can randomly pick up any one of them and shoot it at an incredible level. Me, I struggle to handle just one a year. :cool:

GardoneVT
08-16-2013, 03:40 PM
I agree... Beware of the man with "one" gun indeed.

If you did want variety, Im sure if you stuck with a DA/SA platform, you should be ok going back and fourth between a new pistol and your 92s.

Sigs have that wacky decocker and alternate slide lock location... HK has the mag release on the trigger guard... Things to consider when branching out, if you decide to do so.

I've owned a Sig P226 during my "oates sowing" phrase with pistols.A nice gun,except unlike my 92FS I couldn't hide it worth a darn,and I mixed up the decocker and slide lock lever during reloads.Since I'm primarily used to running a pistol by using the slide lock,this posed a problem.

GJM
08-16-2013, 03:49 PM
The first three years of my shooting life, I owned nine guns from seven different manufacturers. Then I discovered professional firearms training, sold most of my pistols, and spent all that money on classes & ammo.

I will forever live in awe of guys like Ken Hackathorn and Rob Haught who have gun collections that number well into triple digits and can randomly pick up any one of them and shoot it at an incredible level. Me, I struggle to handle just one a year. :cool:

I think it is a pretty interesting topic as to whether the perceived difficulty in transitioning between different platforms is actual or psychological. Bill Rogers tells me he can shoot his school test with a Glock, Sig, Beretta and M&P on consecutive runs, and score 120+ with each pistol. A few months ago, when he shot 125/125 with a Glock 17, the very next time he shot the test was with a Beretta, and scored 121, and had a stoppage on test 4 during the reload, that cost him 3 easy points.

The last year or two, I have almost exclusively shot one platform at a time, and it is easy to convince yourself that is preferable and you wouldn't do nearly as well with something else without a substantial transition. I am just not sure that it is true.

Suvorov
08-16-2013, 03:50 PM
This has been discussed quite a bit here and on M4.

I definitely understand where you are coming from and have seen some parallels in my shooting as well.

It seems that in the world of an innerwebs, there is somewhat of an animosity between "shooters" and "collectors" which really makes no sense to me. Nothing wrong with either as long as one a) can afford it and b) understands that one does not necessarily make him the other and c) have a clear understanding on what you are trying to accomplish. Having a man room full of awesome guns does not make you Rainbow Six and the quixotic search for the prefect gun is almost always trumped by the willingness to spend time with and learn to shoot well the imperfect gun.

I consider myself to be both. I like guns, I like and appreciate them from an aesthetic point of view, a historical point of view, and a mechanical point of view. As a result, I have over the past 20 years amassed a reasonably large collection of firearms ranging from an 1883 Berdan II rifle that was brought over by a family friend that fought for the Whites during the Russian Civil War, to a piston driven AR that is supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread, from Dirty Harry's 44 Magnum to a Sig Mosquito in 22. I enjoy them and from time to time will shoot them so as to appreciate them for what they are. Some have a specific purpose for training or self defense, some have the purpose of being a tangible piece of history or a memory of loved one who has passed on. I tend to be sentimental and have always been a collector. Some here have said that a large collection of firearms is "odd" but it is a hobby of mine. It is no more expensive that collecting cars or owning an airplane and they tend to hold value and other than presenting a pain in the ass to move when I finally decide to escape the granola curtain, they don't ask for bread and water. The folks that advocate 1 or 2 guns only are most likely minimalist by nature and in other aspects of their life. Larry Vickers is reported to have a wonderful collection of firearms and few would say he was not a shooter.

That said, there are guns for playing and their are guns for serious work. The guns for serious work are the ones that I shoot 90%+ of the time. I have made the switch between platforms for the sake of variety (Beretta to Sig for example), but when I do that, I stick with that platform for at least a year or two before moving on. The argument between whether shooting different guns and types of actions can actually improve your shooting or whether you should stay faithful to a particular platform will go on for longer than the debate between 45 and 9mm. Shooting is to me a martial art and a hobby for enjoyment and I try to find the right balance that works for me.

GardoneVT
08-16-2013, 04:10 PM
I think it is a pretty interesting topic as to whether the perceived difficulty in transitioning between different platforms is actual or psychological. Bill Rogers tells me he can shoot his school test with a Glock, Sig, Beretta and M&P on consecutive runs, and score 120+ with each pistol. A few months ago, when he shot 125/125 with a Glock 17, the very next time he shot the test was with a Beretta, and scored 121, and had a stoppage on test 4 during the reload, that cost him 3 easy points.

The last year or two, I have almost exclusively shot one platform at a time, and it is easy to convince yourself that is preferable and you wouldn't do nearly as well with something else without a substantial transition. I am just not sure that it is true.

I think we have three different dynamics at work when evaluating this topic.

First,all of us have different limitations on our practice time and ammunition.Many ex military special ops shooters like LAV and sponsored pros have another party picking up the tab for their ammo bill.While there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with that ,it means they're able to gain extensive shooting experience the rest of us cannot hope to economically match.While special ops guys don't nominally publicise their training regimen,I do know the SFOD-D guys at one training phase shoot 8 hours a day for WEEKS at a time.If you have the skill set to do live fire training with enough accuracy to use live people as "no shoots" and pass the shoot house with flying colors,its safe to say you'll be able to shoot any pistol made on the planet with exemplary form.

That brings me to the second dynamic;for those of us who have to pay our own way,the minute differences matter more then for the super pro shooters.At my current budget level I can shoot ,at a maximum,300 rounds per month of 9mm.LAV probably shot more then that in one hour back in his Army days.That means I literally can't afford to let the firearms ergos get in the way of maximizing my limited training opportunities.By taking the hardware out of play,I can focus on the "software" that much more effectively.

The third factor at hand is the collector versus shooter aspect.Because we all have different budgetary abilities and responsibilities,the line between "collecting" and "shooting" differs for each individual.If I owned 100 different pistols, there's no way in Hades I'll even come close to being a proficient shooter with any of them.300 rounds of 9mm only goes so far.Again,that's my logistical limitation.LAV has the money and time to shoot all of his guns equally well.So would a guy who could afford to burn 1000 rounds of .45 ACP per week .I'm not that guy,unfortunately.

So I commit to one gun,which is the 92FS-and yes I can ably conceal it.That's my path and insist that only I follow it.Your journey to ballistic enlightenment may be on a different path.

Suvorov
08-16-2013, 04:16 PM
So I commit to one gun,which is the 92FS-and yes I can ably conceal it.That's my path and insist that only I follow it.Your journey to ballistic enlightenment may be on a different path.


Valid points all. Everyone does have different goals as well as time and money assets.

I would very much like to hear what techniques and equipment you use to carry your 92. :)

RBid
08-16-2013, 04:17 PM
This type of epiphany comes for many "gun guys". Almost all of us start out with a hardware focus. This epiphany marks where a person transitions to a software focus, and where hardware decisions start being made based on software. People with a heavy training focus tend to stick with familiar platforms.

GardoneVT
08-16-2013, 04:25 PM
Valid points all. Everyone does have different goals as well as time and money assets.

I would very much like to hear what techniques and equipment you use to carry your 92. :)

LifeFitness treadmill:gotta stay skinny to maintain my EDC!

Seriously,its an Italian 92FS with a D spring and skeletonized E2 hammer.I use a comp-tac holster with Velcro clips for business casual carry,and a BladeTech for street attire.

GJM
08-16-2013, 04:28 PM
This type of epiphany comes for many "gun guys". Almost all of us start out with a hardware focus. This epiphany marks where a person transitions to a software focus, and where hardware decisions start being made based on software. People with a heavy training focus tend to stick with familiar platforms.

I am right with you for your first three sentences, but I don't think your last sentence necessarily computes. You could just as easily say that beyond an intermediate level, it is all software, and the same principles apply regardless of platform, with a good shooter being able to shoot them all.

However, I do believe that it is software and not hardware where the gains come from, and if you spend your time chasing platforms instead of technique, you are on the wrong road to improvement.

Suvorov
08-16-2013, 04:32 PM
LifeFitness treadmill:gotta stay skinny to maintain my EDC!

Seriously,its an Italian 92FS with a D spring and skeletonized E2 hammer.I use a comp-tac holster with Velcro clips for business casual carry,and a BladeTech for street attire.

Small of back carry? Appendix carry? Jacket with the BladeTech?

Have you tried a 92 compact? If so, was it anymore concealable? :confused:


However, I do believe that it is software and not hardware where the gains come from, and if you spend your time chasing platforms instead of technique, you are on the wrong road to improvement.

Tell that to the Army and most law enforcement departments :D

SecondsCount
08-16-2013, 05:00 PM
Welcome aboard. I also grew up in the Chicago suburbs. The food and the people are missed but not the politics.

Here is my post on the subject (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2951-The-flawed-search-for-quot-the-quot-gun&p=50300&viewfull=1#post50300) from February 2012.

When I turned 21, which was somewhere around the time when Miami Vice started to lose popularity, I lived in a state where carrying a gun was taboo so most of my gun choices had nothing to do with concealment, etc.

I started off with a Taurus 92 because it was the "high capacity wonder nine" that the gun shop told me I had to have. Then it was a nice used S&W 4506 because it had been worked over by Novak and with the night sights gave it magical powers. Next came a Norinco 1911 that I was going to customize and become Rob Leatham. The high cap mag ban goes into effect about this time and a friend needs that Taurus 92 and its three 15 round mags for his 70 series Colt Gold Cup. Done deal except now I have too many 45's so the magical 4506 needs to go.

What is that pistol with the funny name...Sig Sauer? My FFL got big into Sigs and dragged me in with him. Bought one in 9mm and then the 40 version came out and I had to have the hot new caliber. Then I needed the P220 because it was "the best single stack 45." Along came the new Kimbers, the custom gun at Colt prices so I bought a couple of them. That was the year I moved to a gun friendly state and got my permit so I started carrying one of the Kimbers but sometimes I needed something small so I got a Kahr because the gun magazine said it was the perfect carry gun.

The Internet age was coming on strong. Search engines and forums would make these choices easier, right? Not really, it gets worse because I meet a guy named Shawn at a Christmas party and he is big into guns. He is THAT GUY who buys and sells a couple guns each month. Every time you go to the range with Shawn he has a new gun for you to try. Just just stick around because it will be for sale in a couple weeks for a good price. Soon we get into Cowboy Action and I have to purchase some Vaqueros in 45 Colt. Crap.

By now I am pretty much a 1911 guy even though I still have a couple Sigs. How about some semi-customs? There was a nice Les Baer for a good deal in the local classifieds that found its way home. Then another deal. How about we start building our own? I never realized what a slippery slope the 1911 was but I think I can recover by buying an XD subcompact. Nope, sold it. The good part of this story is that I start getting serious and begin taking some defensive pistol classes.

The forums are saying that the M&P and the Glock are the way to go, and there is a clean OD Glock 19 down at the local pawn shop with night sights, and Vickers mag release. The next month I read a post that the M&P45c is the same size as a G19 and shoots awesome. Yep, you guessed it, I bought them all.

Wait a second, now I read that I may have made a mistake, the M&P reset is kind of faint and not as good as the Glock, the polymer pistol king. Here is a post from a guy that really likes orange and he has moved on from the M&P to the HK P30. Hmm....I have never tried the P30. The USP didn't do much for me but maybe I should check one out. YVK has one that he said I could try and another friend is transitioning back to Glock from the M&P so now we have a home for the G19.

2012 begins with a promise to myself that I am going to stick to the P30 and I am doing well with it when along come the PPQ and the FNS. I will be strong, I will not succumb.

Now I need to sell all my 45's and transition to 9mm. That suggestion goes over like a lead balloon with Mrs. SC who has stuck with the same gun for the last four years, a 1911 in 45, and shoots it well. Maybe I should take some of her advice and JUST PICK ONE. :cool:

I have stuck with the P30 and it has been good to me.

Skullybones
08-16-2013, 06:37 PM
Me, I struggle to handle just one a year. :cool:

Is that what you call it?;)

GardoneVT
08-16-2013, 07:45 PM
Small of back carry? Appendix carry? Jacket with the BladeTech?

Have you tried a 92 compact? If so, was it anymore concealable? :confused:



Tell that to the Army and most law enforcement departments :D

Iwb,4 oclock position w/loose fitting T shirt or cover jacket.

ToddG
08-16-2013, 08:48 PM
Is that what you call it?;)

Well, it's not exactly a year...

Clyde from Carolina
08-16-2013, 08:50 PM
I think the Beretta 92 will serve you well. A buddy was shooting his for the first time in a while yesterday at the range and was almost shocked at how well he shot it. They shoot very well indeed and if you don't mind the weight, in my humble opinion they and the SIG 226 are very hard to beat.

You've got the collection. Now just shoot that sucker and enjoy the new experience.

Chuck Haggard
08-17-2013, 12:02 AM
I have been mandated for most of my career on what to carry, so I make the most of it.

I was used to 1911s and M16s from the Army training and being around my dad, but when I got hired into LE I had to carry a wheelgun, period. I coulda carried whatever I wanted off-duty, but I stuck to revolvers big time for a bit to get good with them. I also bought an 870 since that was what I had to use at work.

Transition to pistols happened and the job decided on S&W 3rd gen 9mms, didn't buy the Sigs due to cost (thankfully) and didn't buy those stupid plastic Austrian pistols because everybody knows real guns are made of metal and that fly-by-night place ain't gonna stay in business anyway.
So, I bought a 5906 and a 6906, and eventually a 3913 and a 5903 when those came out, and stuck with that platform for everything, shooting USPSA, off-duty carry, classes, everything.

We also switched to Mossbergs so I sold the 870 and started to use the 500 or 590 for everything shotgun related, two gun at our gun club, bird hunting, etc.

We went to Glocks in 2006, with a very short run with the .40 and then back to 9mm. I sold off all of the S&Ws and went with Glock 9mms, with the exception of going back to S&W J frames as BUGs.

Unless something really radical changes between now and then, I'm pretty sure I will be in these two platforms for the rest of my life.

I recall at one point thinking I was a collector when I was actually a gun accumulator. Looked at my safe one day and wondered "WTF am I doing with a VP70Z?", etc. Sold off a bunch of guns after that.

fixer
08-17-2013, 09:51 AM
I think we have three different dynamics at work when evaluating this topic.

First,all of us have different limitations on our practice time and ammunition.

That brings me to the second dynamic;for those of us who have to pay our own way,the minute differences matter more then for the super pro shooters.At my current budget level I can shoot ,at a maximum,300 rounds per month of 9mm.

So I commit to one gun,which is the 92FS-and yes I can ably conceal it.That's my path and insist that only I follow it.Your journey to ballistic enlightenment may be on a different path.

Some good points here. I have a job that doesn't remotely involve firearms. It keeps me busy 50+ hrs a week. So the hardware search is more critical for me.

I've been trying to transition out of gun collection into a focus more around software and skill. I come here to this site to learn as much as I can; I take the best practice suggestions to the range when I can.

So my dilemma is: I shoot berettas (Px4 and 92) much better than glocks (19 and 23). However, carrying the 19 is much more comfortable and practical than a 92. So as you could imagine, I've got a bunch of 92, Px4, and mid size glocks.

My shot timer indicates the performance difference between the two platforms is similar in terms of time. However the accuracy difference is substantially different.

I have about the same number of rounds through glocks and berettas. I've tried every trick in the book to manage my handling of the glock to improve accuracy. I don't have to do this with berettas.

So yeah...the problem continues...

CCT125US
08-17-2013, 10:14 AM
Boiled down to its simplest form. Align the bumpy things on the gun over the target, and pull the trigger straight to the rear until the gun goes boom. Some do this well with one or two guns, while others manage these actions over a broad range of guns. To each his own.

GardoneVT
08-17-2013, 10:18 AM
Some good points here. I have a job that doesn't remotely involve firearms. It keeps me busy 50+ hrs a week. So the hardware search is more critical for me.

I've been trying to transition out of gun collection into a focus more around software and skill. I come here to this site to learn as much as I can; I take the best practice suggestions to the range when I can.

So my dilemma is: I shoot berettas (Px4 and 92) much better than glocks (19 and 23). However, carrying the 19 is much more comfortable and practical than a 92. So as you could imagine, I've got a bunch of 92, Px4, and mid size glocks.

My shot timer indicates the performance difference between the two platforms is similar in terms of time. However the accuracy difference is substantially different.

I have about the same number of rounds through glocks and berettas. I've tried every trick in the book to manage my handling of the glock to improve accuracy. I don't have to do this with berettas.

So yeah...the problem continues...

I understand your position.

Perhaps this will help. While swapping wardrobes isn't an easy task, I find that changing my clothing labels and holsters is less obtrusive then changing firearms.
While I can carry a 92FS, I do realize also that its an ability partly due to my genetic luck and body composition. A PX4 is analogous roughly to the Glock in size , and its much lighter then the 92FS.

fixer
08-17-2013, 10:51 AM
I understand your position.

Perhaps this will help. While swapping wardrobes isn't an easy task, I find that changing my clothing labels and holsters is less obtrusive then changing firearms.
While I can carry a 92FS, I do realize also that its an ability partly due to my genetic luck and body composition. A PX4 is analogous roughly to the Glock in size , and its much lighter then the 92FS.

I've been able to dress around the 92. I think I have hit holster nirvana with the com-tac infidel.

Other complications aside from dress & concealment:

In double action, I am slightly more accurate with the 92 than a glock. When I say I shoot the 92 much better than the glock it is in reference to single action on the 92.

So based on trigger pull in this scenario, it is a toss up in terms of accuracy. So I end up tending towards the glock because of the convenience.

BLR
08-17-2013, 02:37 PM
Some of you guys are no fun at all.

:|

Chuck Haggard
08-17-2013, 02:46 PM
Some of you guys are no fun at all.

:|

That's not true, I am loads of fun.

pangloss
08-25-2013, 10:27 AM
GardoneVT, the only thing I have to add is that you might think about picking up a Beretta 96. I added a Glock 22 to my collection of 9mm Glocks this year so that I could shoot .40 if I needed too. Fortunately I haven't needed too, but if I can't find 9mm practice ammo, I have an alternative.

JHC
08-25-2013, 12:19 PM
"Production" pistol is about 98% of my shooting. Target/Rec rifle shooting 1.5% and fighting carbine 0.5%. After the two days of carbine/pistol my son and I took with Frank Proctor before the lad shipped out; I don't have any plans to ever take another carbine course. Friends hit me up for more of those courses and it's fun and all but I can't justify the cost for the relevance factor. I have ZERO, nada, criticism for civ peers who like to jock up and train the carbine though. Its a past time.

Tamara
08-25-2013, 06:11 PM
(t)he only thing I have to add is that you might think about picking up a Beretta 96.

Bear in mind that Beretta 96s seem to have the lifespan of a fruit fly.

ffhounddog
08-25-2013, 08:24 PM
I have been shooting the M9 a lot in the past few months due to being on the Guard Shooting team and I have thought a few times getting another one but when when I train with the M9 it just works.

walkin' trails
08-26-2013, 07:44 AM
My EDCs are Glocks and M&Ps and occasionally a J-frame revolver. I have several .22 and 38/357 handguns, mostly revolvers that I can't let go either because my boys shoot them, they are a future project, or have sentimental value. I took the steps earlier this summer to standardize all my EDCs in 9mm because I shoot much better than I did with 40s. Because there's really not much of a difference in the basic concept of firing a Glock vs a non thumb safety M&P vs a S&W J-frame, I think I'm pretty well as standardized as I'm ever going to be.

pangloss
08-26-2013, 10:04 PM
Bear in mind that Beretta 96s seem to have the lifespan of a fruit fly.

In that case, picking up a 96 might not be such a good idea. (I looked it up: fruit flies only live about a month.)

GardoneVT
08-26-2013, 10:10 PM
In that case, picking up a 96 might not be such a good idea. (I looked it up: fruit flies only live about a month.)

I used to own an HK P30 in .40 S&W. Im done with that round, for good. The last time I shot 200 rounds of that stuff in one sitting the nerves in my hands were smarting fierce for 5 hours.

For an update, last week I shot a Dot Torture drill for the first time with my 92FS . I clocked in 40 out of 50 at 3 yards - I really need work shooting left hand.

RBid
08-27-2013, 07:53 PM
I am right with you for your first three sentences, but I don't think your last sentence necessarily computes. You could just as easily say that beyond an intermediate level, it is all software, and the same principles apply regardless of platform, with a good shooter being able to shoot them all.

However, I do believe that it is software and not hardware where the gains come from, and if you spend your time chasing platforms instead of technique, you are on the wrong road to improvement.

To clarify:

I meant that it is a general trend among people with a heavy training focus that they do not seek solutions through hardware/ chase hardware.

I am completely on board with the belief that gains are made through software, so long as the hardware doesn't get in the way or fight the user. For example, Max Michel would perform differently

RBid
08-27-2013, 07:54 PM
...with a Kel Tec P3AT than he would with just about any service pistol, by a significant margin.

Tamara
08-27-2013, 08:37 PM
I recall at one point thinking I was a collector when I was actually a gun accumulator. Looked at my safe one day and wondered "WTF am I doing with a VP70Z?", etc. Sold off a bunch of guns after that.

Fistbump.

I used to accumulate, now I collect. And my collection is distinct from my actual guns that work for a living. I see no need to maintain proficiency in speed reloads with my Webley Self-Loading .455 Mk.I(N). :D