PDA

View Full Version : Loading .45



223AI
08-14-2013, 08:48 PM
I've spent my entire reloading and shooting "career" focusing on practical precision rifle shooting (6.5x47/243/308/223/223ai). I've spent a lot of time, money, and effort in the pursuit of practical precision via good handloads, good training, and plenty of competition. As more and more matches start to incorporate pistol stages, I've come to realize how important good ammo and good practice is....funny how that works. I can shoot rifles just fine, but am *ahem* deficient in the pistol department.

I aim to fix my pistol (in)capabilites with this:

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv208/JLPipes/IMG_20130814_085330_111_zpsa98ca7f9.jpg (http://s684.photobucket.com/user/JLPipes/media/IMG_20130814_085330_111_zpsa98ca7f9.jpg.html)

As well as plenty of these:

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv208/JLPipes/IMG_20130814_203412_312_zps8f4688da.jpg (http://s684.photobucket.com/user/JLPipes/media/IMG_20130814_203412_312_zps8f4688da.jpg.html)

The pistol is a Ned Christiansen built 1911 with plenty of holster wear from some very, very sandy conditions in which I overlubed the gun and practiced drawstrokes. Tripp 10 and 8 rounders with a few CMC's are the mags, I'm running with.

I've 8lbs of Winchester WST, 10k primers, and 2k S&S 200gr SWC. Should be fun to learn how to roll my own pistol ammo...on a Forster Co-Ax...using Lee dies :eek:...

Anyone have tips and tricks?

JAD
08-14-2013, 09:02 PM
First, that's a beautiful pistol. You're doing it right.

Second, .45 ACP is a very forgiving cartridge to reload and you already have the correct components. WST is my preferred powder and you will find that 5.2 grains is as soft as you'll want it and six is borderline too fast; fuss around in that range and you'll find your favorite. 1.250" oal, .472-.473 crimp, check primers for flush or below. Brass that had cracked down the side can only be reloaded two or three more times -- half of my brass has no recognizable head stamp. Best I can get with cast is about 2". With Hornady 200 FMJ C/T and a few tenths more powder I can get sub-inch with the right gun (none of mine) and right shooter (not me).

Eta: you can get a 550 or 650 now, or after you get through that first 2K. Don't say I didn't warn you.

NETim
08-15-2013, 07:59 AM
You'll eventually want a progressive press for reloading straight wall pistol cartridges. I started with a Dillon SDB as my first progressive and it does well but the 650 has better mechanical advantage (particularly when seating the primers) and has that wonderful case feeder option. Quite a bit faster to load on but truthfully the SDB kept up with my demand.

Get a case gauge and test your product occasionally to see how it chambers. Many reloaders simply pull the barrel of out and drop rounds into the chamber to see how they fit, headspace wise. (The "plunk" test.) I prefer the Dillon case gauge. That test is how I gained a lifelong hatred of AMERC brass. Off center, oblong, square brass. ACK! It's like trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. Seriously, it has save me a lot of aggravation on the range.

Lots of powders work well in the ol' 45. Typical military cartridge. :) I've loaded 231 for many years but recently picked up some WST. These days, your favorite powder isn't always available. :( I've heard good stuff about WST so I'm not worried about it's performance.

Bell the case mouths just enough to allow bullet seating w/o shaving off lead. And according to Dillon, adjust the crimp die with a case (with a bullet in it) inserted into the die with your fingers until the die is snug, lower the ram a little, turn the die 1/4 turn downwards, raise the ram and lock it down there. You want to iron out the flare. I like to be at or near .470".

As far as OAL, I don't usually put calipers on them. I look for just a little of the shoulder of the SWC peeking over the edge of the case mouth. Sometimes going by OAL works, sometimes not. Depends on the length and profile of the bullet nose. If I leave OAL a little long, after some shooting and the chamber gets gummed up (which doesn't take long) I start to have chambering issues. I am more concerned with crimp diameter than I am in a set, measured OAL.

Yes, some of my reloading techniques are "seat of the pants." Running my thumb over the case mouth of a loaded round gives a good idea if the crimp is good. I also press the bullet nose of a loaded round into my reloading bench, hard, to see if the bullet moves back into the case.

And I don't load near max, even in the 45. I like a safety margin.

223AI
08-15-2013, 08:27 AM
Thanks for the feedback guys. I actually had a 550 that was set-up for .308 back when I thought I could load consistent match grade long range ammo progressively. I eventually sold it because I had to use ball powder to get it to throw powder within tolerance, and that caused temperature stability problems....hence the move back to single stage, a prometheus powder measure, and stick powders.

Until I get the feel of loading pistol ammo, I'm going to stick with the single stage for now. Batch laoding should help, and I can't imagine it taking more than 30 min to knock out 100-150 rounds. The Square Deal "B" is tempting, but I have my sights on another Schmidt and Bender first.

That said, I loaded up a dummy round using scrap range brass, in the following steps:


full length size and deprime
run through the expander die
seat bullet to 1.250" OAL


Here is what I ended up with:

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv208/JLPipes/eb404afd-b768-4aa8-b999-dac42a38b989_zpse66d45d4.jpg (http://s684.photobucket.com/user/JLPipes/media/eb404afd-b768-4aa8-b999-dac42a38b989_zpse66d45d4.jpg.html)

Looks dirty, but that is because it is scrap brass, and I chambered it about 15 times in the gun to ensure feeding and extraction. 1.250" Case Overall Length. No crimp was necessary, the case mouth measure right at .71".

Next time, we go live....

NETim
08-15-2013, 08:55 AM
Thanks for the feedback guys. I actually had a 550 that was set-up for .308 back when I thought I could load consistent match grade long range ammo progressively. I eventually sold it because I had to use ball powder to get it to throw powder within tolerance, and that caused temperature stability problems....hence the move back to single stage, a prometheus powder measure, and stick powders.

Until I get the feel of loading pistol ammo, I'm going to stick with the single stage for now. Batch laoding should help, and I can't imagine it taking more than 30 min to knock out 100-150 rounds. The Square Deal "B" is tempting, but I have my sights on another Schmidt and Bender first.

That said, I loaded up a dummy round using scrap range brass, in the following steps:


full length size and deprime
run through the expander die
seat bullet to 1.250" OAL


Here is what I ended up with:

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv208/JLPipes/eb404afd-b768-4aa8-b999-dac42a38b989_zpse66d45d4.jpg (http://s684.photobucket.com/user/JLPipes/media/eb404afd-b768-4aa8-b999-dac42a38b989_zpse66d45d4.jpg.html)

Looks dirty, but that is because it is scrap brass, and I chambered it about 15 times in the gun to ensure feeding and extraction. 1.250" Case Overall Length. No crimp was necessary, the case mouth measure right at .71".

Next time, we go live....

Looks good. As long as it chambers and the bullets don't set back during the feeding cycle, you should be GTG.

1slow
08-15-2013, 09:04 AM
Taper crimp crimping die is your friend in a cartridge like 45acp that headspaces on the case mouth.

buckskinjoe
08-16-2013, 02:07 AM
Taper crimp crimping die is your friend in a cartridge like 45acp that headspaces on the case mouth.

Definitely--especially with 1911s and LSWC bullets. The taper crimping should be a separate operation from bullet seating using a TC die. A "full" taper crimp of about 0.465" is excellent with LSWC in 1911s. For ball FMJ, taper crimp at about 0.469" seems to work well in just about all .45s. For the "68" 200 gr. LSWC bullets, OAL of 1.245" to 1.250" works about best. Any longer than that can start to cause feeding issues and-or be too long to fit in a magazine properly.

LSP972
08-16-2013, 08:09 AM
Eta: you can get a 550 or 650 now, or after you get through that first 2K. Don't say I didn't warn you.

LOL. True words.

Although, if you have no plans to load another handgun caliber, the Square Deal is probably your smart move. The 550/650 make it relatively painless to switch calibers; switching a SD is a flaming PITA.

But JAD is right... you WILL end up with a progressive press if you shoot any amount.

.

JAD
08-16-2013, 08:16 AM
An afterthought on crimping: I really do run a 471 nominal crimp, and that is light by most standards. Bill Wilson recommends a 469 with a 200 grain LSWC. I run light partially because I want good headspace, partially because I don't want to overwork the case mouth, and partially because it's always worked well.

NETim
08-16-2013, 08:34 AM
An afterthought on crimping: I really do run a 471 nominal crimp, and that is light by most standards. Bill Wilson recommends a 469 with a 200 grain LSWC. I run light partially because I want good headspace, partially because I don't want to overwork the case mouth, and partially because it's always worked well.

Good enough! :)

223AI
08-16-2013, 08:57 AM
I should have never sold my 550....

Here are 50 of my 100 round batch. Crimp at .470, at 4.5gr of WST, 200gr S&S swc at 1.250 Overall length

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv208/JLPipes/IMG_20130816_083531_618_zps7f636267.jpg (http://s684.photobucket.com/user/JLPipes/media/IMG_20130816_083531_618_zps7f636267.jpg.html)

Honestly, the "Square Deal B" is looking to be my best bet. This was brutal compared to loading precision rifle ammo.

BN
08-16-2013, 04:43 PM
Brass that had cracked down the side can only be reloaded two or three more times -- half of my brass has no recognizable head stamp.

Eta: you can get a 550 or 650 now, or after you get through that first 2K. Don't say I didn't warn you.

:) When you pick up each handful of brass, give it a little shake. You will soon learn the "jingle" of badly split brass. Just search out the offenders in that handful and put them aside for lost brass events. LOL ;)

You will want at least a 550.

rsa-otc
08-16-2013, 05:16 PM
:) When you pick up each handful of brass, give it a little shake. You will soon learn the "jingle" of badly split brass. Just search out the offenders in that handful and put them aside for lost brass events. LOL ;)

You will want at least a 550.

+1 on the 550B if you even think this is going to be a steady habit. If you don't like it you'll easily get your money back when you sell it. :-)

When you get done with the WST powder and think you are going to want to experiment with something else, After years as a dedicated Bullseye user I recently switched to Clays. 3.6 to 3.8 under a 230 grain bullet and I am a happy man.

SecondsCount
08-16-2013, 05:24 PM
+1 on the 550B if you even think this is going to be a steady habit. If you don't like it you'll easily get your money back when you sell it. :-)

When you get done with the WST powder and think you are going to want to experiment with something else, After years as a dedicated Bullseye user I recently switched to Clays. 3.6 to 3.8 under a 230 grain bullet and I am a happy man.


I have been a Clays user for about 20 years. 3.8 grains under a 200 LSWC. Recently I picked up some WST to try but have not gotten around to it just yet.

You do have to be careful with bullet setback when shooting Clays. It is a fast burning powder.

JAD
08-16-2013, 11:01 PM
I went from WST to clays and back. Clays shot soft but SD was never great and there's a lot more play in the throttle with WST. I recently picked up some Titegroup to play with but am detouring to Lugerville for a while.

rsa-otc
08-17-2013, 05:02 AM
Tried Tightgroup and it was great except that it burns HOT, HOT, HOT. In quick moving classes guns get literally to hot to handle, especially revolvers. :cool:

JAD
08-17-2013, 05:36 AM
it burns HOT, HOT, HOT.

Awesome, I was looking for a good P7 load.

223AI
08-19-2013, 02:11 PM
- UPDATE -


I'm not blown up
They shot very softly, huge difference from factory ammo
Accurate, but the gun shoots a little right. Confirmed with an actual instructor and compared to a Glock 17 and a Beretta 92
I am the worst pistol shooter known to man
I had two malfunctions in 100 rounds: both were failures to fully chamber a round. A slight pull backward on the slide had the round fully chambered. The pistol was dry, meaning there was no lube/grease on the gun. The gun was dirty from a 200 round factory session from the previous week, and not cleaning it after a PRS match with lots of New Mexico sand and wind.


So, now I go grease shopping and I cleaned the hell out of the gun. I lubed it with FrogLube CLP while I find out what lubricant works best. Rails, hammer, barrel, recoil spring all god a healthy does of the FrogLube....other than that, any ideas as to why the gun had those malfunctions? Mags were Tripp Cobra mags, 8 rounders.

Thanks,
JP

LHS
08-19-2013, 04:09 PM
So, now I go grease shopping and I cleaned the hell out of the gun. I lubed it with FrogLube CLP while I find out what lubricant works best. Rails, hammer, barrel, recoil spring all god a healthy does of the FrogLube....other than that, any ideas as to why the gun had those malfunctions? Mags were Tripp Cobra mags, 8 rounders.

Thanks,
JP

Normally, i'd say check extractor tension/geometry, or for burrs on the firing pin hole, but that's less likely on a Ned Christiansen gun. Lube it, that should help a lot. What # recoil spring are you using?

SecondsCount
08-19-2013, 08:53 PM
Could be lube or ammo is too light.

First place I would check after that is the recoil spring.

NETim
08-20-2013, 07:01 AM
:) When you pick up each handful of brass, give it a little shake. You will soon learn the "jingle" of badly split brass. Just search out the offenders in that handful and put them aside for lost brass events. LOL ;)

You will want at least a 550.

I've never knowingly fired a split case reload. I could pick them out immediately on the SDB as the feedback on the handle was totally different when seating a bullet in a split case. I junked them immediately. (I haven't developed the "touch" on the 650 to detect a split case yet.)

Split case rounds won't fully seat in my case gauge, so I don't believe they would feed reliably in my guns to begin with.

223AI
08-20-2013, 08:44 AM
Thanks guys. It's a Wolff 16lb recoil spring with approximately 500 rounds on it.

LSP972
08-20-2013, 12:37 PM
Thanks guys. It's a Wolff 16lb recoil spring with approximately 500 rounds on it.

Then you need to go up a couple of tenths on your powder charge. Or perhaps, as mentioned, you need more (or a different) lube.

I've been shooting 4.2 of WST under a 230 ball bullet for many years in my HK45C. It doesn't function reliably in most other .45 pistols I've tried it in. I recently went up to 4.6, because that's what I load the wife's .40 and the grandson's 9mm training ammunition with, and I got tired of resetting the powder measure when I change calibers. This gives me an average velocity of 770 fps; still mild, but with a bit more recoil.

I suspect your 4.5 load would work with 230gr bullets, but looks like you're settled in on 200gr, so I'd try 4.8. Welcome to loading for 1911s; each one is its own animal. WST is a very versatile powder, and the higher the charge the cleaner it burns.

You'll find the "sweet load" eventually. Just about the time you do, you'll realize that a single stage press is for suckers...;)

.

JAD
08-21-2013, 12:37 AM
. WST is my preferred powder and you will find that 5.2 grains is as soft as you'll want it .

-- I wouldn't expect anything less than 5 grains to run well.

A62335
08-21-2013, 11:47 AM
I've loaded thousands upon thousands of rounds of 45 on a SDB. It is a great little press if you don't plan on changing calibers. I started on a RCBS single stage when I began my reloading career, and when I went to the SDB it was heaven.

I prefer Titegroup, but mainly because I can shoot 9mm, 40, and 45 with it, and I don't like messing around trying to keep different powders on hand. A few 8lb kegs ordered once a year keeps me set. Having said that, the absolute best powder I've found for 45 is Viht N310. Very soft, very clean, and burns cool. $$$ is a bit more, but might be worth it to run at big matches.

223AI
08-21-2013, 06:00 PM
Thanks for all of the feedback guys. I have a match this weekend at The Rifle Ranch near Hillsboro, TX, and will be carrying the pistol with me then, with stouter loads. It's a 1-day match, thankfully, and is Texas VS Oklahoma in the annual Red River Shootout. The last stage is going to be 3-gun nation style, but with precision rifles mixed in...Should be a good match, and I will definitely have the chance to work out the pistol there.

LSP972
08-22-2013, 10:17 AM
I prefer Titegroup, but mainly because I can shoot 9mm, 40, and 45 with it. .

Ditto WST... and add .38 Special to your list, as well (if you load for that).

VV is a BIT more? Around here, its almost twice as much per pound.

.

LHS
08-22-2013, 10:14 PM
Ditto WST... and add .38 Special to your list, as well (if you load for that).

VV is a BIT more? Around here, its almost twice as much per pound.

.

WST, eh? How does it compare to Win231? I'm just getting into .38 Spl, and the only powder I was able to find during the drought was IMR 700-X. I've discovered why people don't like flake powders, it meters like kitten. I'd love to get some decent ball powder so I can reload a bit faster.

223AI
08-22-2013, 10:31 PM
Now i know why 1911's need to be run a little wet, and a little cleaner than my G-locks. 100 through it tonight with no malf's. I'll clean it before this match, and then try to run it through a 1k challenge. I...I just can't bring myself to do the 2k challenge :(...yet.

NETim
08-23-2013, 08:27 AM
WST, eh? How does it compare to Win231? I'm just getting into .38 Spl, and the only powder I was able to find during the drought was IMR 700-X. I've discovered why people don't like flake powders, it meters like kitten. I'd love to get some decent ball powder so I can reload a bit faster.

WST is a fair bit faster than 231.

NETim
08-23-2013, 08:30 AM
Now i know why 1911's need to be run a little wet, and a little cleaner than my G-locks. 100 through it tonight with no malf's. I'll clean it before this match, and then try to run it through a 1k challenge. I...I just can't bring myself to do the 2k challenge :(...yet.

Yep. They like their lube and aren't nearly as forgiving as a Glock. Gotta stay on top of 'em.

I think my old CQB could do the 2K challenge as long as I fired jacketed ammo. Lead lube gums up the chamber after about 300 rounds or so. Things get a little iffy from then on. :)

LSP972
08-23-2013, 11:04 AM
WST, eh? How does it compare to Win231?

Its a bit quicker-burning than 231. Watch for pressure signs if you're loading "hot". I only use 3.5, with 110gr JHP bullets that I got a deal on (and have a ton of), to make bunny fart loads for practice with my 13oz J frame.

If I was loading a lot of mid-range or hotter .38s, I'd prefer 231.

I prefer WST in the semi-auto cartridges because it seems to burn cleaner than anything else but VV. And I choose not to mortgage my grandchildren to pay for quantities of VV....;)

.