Hammer fired gun for USPSA Production

[littlejerry]

Background:
I've been shooting Glocks for years, and really just Glock 19s. I have a Gen3 19 that wears Warren sights(FO front), a GFA, and some grip tape that I have been using in USPSA since November of last year. I've gotten significantly better since I started competing(imagine that...) and now my original mantra of "shoot what you carry" is getting boring. I suppose at some point I realized that USPSA is a really fun game and I should treat it as such.

So now I have an itch to put down my well-used Glock and try something new, preferably in Production. I've never owned or put any significant time behind a hammer fired DA/SA pistol. All of my shooting has been on SAO and strikers. To keep things interesting I'd like to jump feet first into a DA/SA steel/alloy framed gun. My theory or rationale is that a new trigger will keep me focused and only improve my fundamentals.

So now the choices:
Sig P series(226, 228, 229)- Expensive. Cheap mags available. Sights available. Good reputation for accuracy.
HK (P30, P2000) - Expensive. Expensive mags. Some sight options. Also a good rep for accuracy.
Beretta 92 - Cheap. Cheap mags. Sight? Accuracy? I'm intrigued because I never see any of them at matches...
CZ - Cheap. Cheap mags. Limited sight options. Good accuracy. I used to have a 75 SAO, so I'm familial with the guns, though not the decocker versions.

I'm only considering 9mm since I don't hate myself.

What am I missing? I'm really tempted by a M11A1 but prices are a bit steep. Same with HK. A Beretta or CZ would only be $700-800 for the gun, mags, holster, pouches, etc.

Any sage advice? My goal isn't to be ultra-competitive. I just want a new and interesting platform to learn while competing in a division that doesn't have tuned race guns.

[jetfire]

As much as it hurts me to say this, you should really look to see if you can find a Tanfoglio Stock II or Stock III for sale on Gunbroker. They're really awesome, and you can put an amazing trigger job in one. It's like shooting a limited gun in Production.

[rob_s]

Don't let people fool you into thinking the guns aren't tuned just because its called "production". Remember that NASCAR was called "stock ca racing".

http://acguns.com/?page_id=242

I've considered having akai build me a CZ that remains stoc looking as much as possible just for kittens and grins. His DA trigger is nicer than som striker-fired guns.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Hammer gun for Production, look at a P226 Stainless Elite or an X5 All Around.

[ToddG]

Hammer gun for Production, look at a P226 Stainless Elite or an X5 All Around.

In my experience, recoil control with aluminum framed SIGs is equal to or superior to the steel versions. This is based on actual side by side comparison on a timer in multiple calibers.

Also, I'd stay away from any of the guns with a "beavertail." The beavertail on the SIGs actually pushes your hand lower on the gun than you could get it otherwise. It was developed 100% by the (since terminated) marketing genius who is only a D-class IPSC shooter because the sport won't create an E-class. It looks cool and checks the box for "extra tactical feature" but it actually diminishes shootability. For a SIG, I'd get a P226R or P229R in 9mm with SRT and be done with it.

[YVK]

..while competing in a division that doesn't have tuned race guns.

Caleb and Rob already touched on this, but those Tanfos and CZs are purpose built to be tuned within the requirements of Production.

I've gone through similar thought process and I am currently getting a Beretta Elite II set up, even though DA/SA P30 would've been easier logistically since I carry P30 LEM. Elite II is an expensive pleasure too.

I think I'd agree with Todd on this.

[LHS]

Beretta is one of the few guns whose stock sights are pretty decent. That's a good thing, because on most models, you can't change the front sight. As for accuracy, mine have all been very good. My Elite's a laser beam, and with a D-spring in it, any 92 will have a decent trigger.

Given Sig's QC issues, CZ's durability issues and HK's economy issues, the Beretta is still my first choice in a DA/SA gun.

[Slavex]

I'd still say CZ Shadow, even with the Stock II and III hitting the markets now. The trigger in the Shadow is still better, and you can get flush safeties, which for a lot of people, is a huge benefit.

[DocGKR]

Since you state you want a play gun and don't want to keep shooting a Glock or similar, then go with a CZ or Tanfoglio Stock II or Stock III, as noted above.

[A62335]

Beretta Elite II gets my vote. Or CZ Shadow.

[WOLFIE]

Mr. ToddG,
Do you think the aluminum frame sig pistols have more flex which may absorb some of the recoil forces as compared to the steel frame versions? Could a steel frame pistol have more true recoil than an aluminum one?

[Rich]

With sig I would rather go MK25 over the new M11A1

If the M11 A1 came with the regular extractor I might change my mind.

The extra length of the P226R would be sweet shooting 25+yards.

The P229R makes a excellent ccw pistol. I sure like my P229 .


P30 seems to be the best bet in a plastic pistol right now .

It would be hard for me to pick between the Sig MK25 and HK P30

[Noleshooter]

Not sure what your budget is and I'm by no means an expert, but when tuned correctly the CZs are extraordinary.


You could do all the mods he has done to any CZ.

http://czcustom.com/CZ75_SP01_SHADOW_CustomShop.aspx




Or if you've got a bigger budget there is this...

http://czcustom.com/cz75sp01accushadow.aspx


Again, a good local gunsmith could also do these mods, but as far as CZs go Angus is the man.

[gtmtnbiker98]

In my experience, recoil control with aluminum framed SIGs is equal to or superior to the steel versions. This is based on actual side by side comparison on a timer in multiple calibers.

Also, I'd stay away from any of the guns with a "beavertail." The beavertail on the SIGs actually pushes your hand lower on the gun than you could get it otherwise. It was developed 100% by the (since terminated) marketing genius who is only a D-class IPSC shooter because the sport won't create an E-class. It looks cool and checks the box for "extra tactical feature" but it actually diminishes shootability. For a SIG, I'd get a P226R or P229R in 9mm with SRT and be done with it.
Yeah, there is the "tail" issue; however, I was thinking more in lines of durability. It just seems that the newer SIG's devour themselves, due to burrs on the slide eating the aluminum frames. Today's SIG isn't the same as the 90's to which I'm still associating them with. What a shame.

[Sparks2112]

Yeah, there is the "tail" issue; however, I was thinking more in lines of durability. It just seems that the newer SIG's devour themselves, due to burrs on the slide eating the aluminum frames. Today's SIG isn't the same as the 90's to which I'm still associating them with. What a shame.

I've had no issue, and neither have some other forum members, one of whom puts a lot of government funded rounds through sigs each year. I'm not saying QC issues don't exist. Just that they're overblown.

[PPGMD]

Don't let people fool you into thinking the guns aren't tuned just because its called "production". Remember that NASCAR was called "stock ca racing".

+ 1, my production gun is only production in the fact that the slide, barrel, and frame were made by the manufacturer (though sometimes the barrel isn't even factory). Different sights, internals replaced or polished, different grips, springs, etc. Between custom work that I pay for, and my own time I probably spend the gun's value optimizing the gun for a match.


In my experience, recoil control with aluminum framed SIGs is equal to or superior to the steel versions. This is based on actual side by side comparison on a timer in multiple calibers.

That has been my experience as well. I converted from stainless 226 to the soda can version as I learned more about managing recoil.


Also, I'd stay away from any of the guns with a "beavertail." The beavertail on the SIGs actually pushes your hand lower on the gun than you could get it otherwise. It was developed 100% by the (since terminated) marketing genius who is only a D-class IPSC shooter because the sport won't create an E-class. It looks cool and checks the box for "extra tactical feature" but it actually diminishes shootability. For a SIG, I'd get a P226R or P229R in 9mm with SRT and be done with it.

OTOH I disagree with this, maybe it was my meaty palms (which give me slide bite on non-beavertail Glocks), but I found that the beaver tail Sigs provided me with a more secure grip with less pain than the normal version. Also my holster index was just every so slightly faster.


Yeah, there is the "tail" issue; however, I was thinking more in lines of durability. It just seems that the newer SIG's devour themselves, due to burrs on the slide eating the aluminum frames. Today's SIG isn't the same as the 90's to which I'm still associating them with. What a shame.

Even with a burr if you destroy a Sig either you are under lubricating or you've shot several times the Sig's value in ammo. Besides if a person is really worried about it send to the slide to Gray Guns they have a system for checking for the burrs and polishing them out.

Anyways Sigs, and CZs. I've shot both. CZs are more shootable (feels like no recoil) but the double action isn't nearly as good as the Sig. Single action they are about equal with the reset being shorter on the CZ (not a huge issue). Transitions are faster on soda can Sigs, which is important to me. Durability, and availability of parts Sig wins easily. Even with the QC issues if your Sig survives 500 rounds chances are you will have no issues until you start forgetting about parts replacement. Also a nearly complete full line of replacement parts is available at Top Gun Supply, who ship quickly.

That being said, it is rare to see a Sig at USPSA. CZs tend to be the dominate hammer fired production gun.

[Lon]

I'll vote for Sig. I've shot Sigs off and on in USPSA matches for the last 15 years. Because I've carried a Sig at work for the last 15 years. I've used a 228, 226R, 226R Blackwater edition (with beavertail), 229R and 229R Diamondplate (hanging my head in embarrassment - but it's got a SWEET trigger). Currently, I use the 226Rs (one is my duty gun and one is set up with an RMR) and the 229R Diamondplate (off duty gun).

Set up with good sights, I have never felt under equipped or uncompetitive. I have yet to have any issues with any of my Sigs. The newest 229R has the long extractor. We will see how that holds up/wears. It's hard to go wrong with a Sig. All my Sigs have been TDA 9mm.

If I didn't pick a Sig, I'd try to find a Beretta Elite II.

[DocGKR]

I have to politely disagree regarding Sig quality issues--at least on Sig pistols produced from around 2005-2011. I watched several LE agencies that had used Sigs for the previous 20 years have across the board failures of the new Sig pistols they acquired during the 2005-2010 time frame. Numerous premature small parts failures, not at all in line with durability of parts found in older Sig pistols in their inventory. Former SCPD SWAT officer and trained gunsmith Don Lazzarini did Rockwell hardness testing both on parts from the old guns, as well as failing parts in the new guns and discovered many of the new broken parts had only 50% of the hardness of the same part found in an old gun. Folks I know at Sig have also confirmed that pistols made in that time frame were NOT as uniformly good quality as Sigs from other time frames.

[Sparks2112]

I have to politely disagree regarding Sig quality issues--at least on Sig pistols produced from around 2005-2011. I watched several LE agencies that had used Sigs for the previous 20 years have across the board failures of the new Sig pistols they acquired during the 2005-2010 time frame. Numerous premature small parts failures, not at all in line with durability of parts found in older Sig pistols in their inventory. Former SCPD SWAT officer and trained gunsmith Don Lazzarini did Rockwell hardness testing both on parts from the old guns, as well as failing parts in the new guns and discovered many of the new broken parts had only 50% of the hardness of the same part found in an old gun. Folks I know at Sig have also confirmed that pistols made in that time frame were NOT as uniformly good quality as Sigs from other time frames.

I'll concede that point. And my small sample of three were made 2012+

[GJM]

My 2012 manufactured 226R has gone 9,000 rounds since new without a single bobble (stoppage/breakage/malfunction) of any kind. Can't remember a single bobble with any of my other Sig pistols purchased 2012/13.

[Sal Picante]

I like my Beretta's and do ok with them.

That said, if you have $$ to burn, dig up a Stock 2! Just a better competition gun, all around: heavy, accurate, trigger can get lighter, etc...

[jetfire]

I will add a caveat about the Tanfoglios and other semi-rare spaghetti blasters: working with EAA to get parts, spares, etc can be a bit of a pain. It's actually kind of annoying that they're much easier to get in Canada than they are here.

[Lon]

I'll concede that point. And my small sample of three were made 2012+

All my Sigs were/are either pre 2004 or post 2011, now that I think about it. All our dept guns are pre 2004. So if there were issues 2005-2011, I have no first hand knowledge of them.

[Sal Picante]

I will add a caveat about the Tanfoglios and other semi-rare spaghetti blasters: working with EAA to get parts, spares, etc can be a bit of a pain. It's actually kind of annoying that they're much easier to get in Canada than they are here.

Except they get the small frame guns... Which don't work all that well.

[joshs]

So now the choices:
Sig P series(226, 228, 229)- Expensive. Cheap mags available. Sights available. Good reputation for accuracy.
HK (P30, P2000) - Expensive. Expensive mags. Some sight options. Also a good rep for accuracy.
Beretta 92 - Cheap. Cheap mags. Sight? Accuracy? I'm intrigued because I never see any of them at matches...
CZ - Cheap. Cheap mags. Limited sight options. Good accuracy. I used to have a 75 SAO, so I'm familial with the guns, though not the decocker versions.

Something to note on cost. While the base CZ is cheaper than the Beretta or Sig, it requires significantly more work to get it to be a good Production gun. In stock form, the standard CZ triggers are pretty terrible. The CZs that have a better trigger from the factory are about the same price as a 226. Also note that the only current production Beretta with a replaceable front sight (the 92A1) is not on the USPSA Production gun list.

[Slavex]

To clean up a CZ trigger for USPSA takes maybe 30 minutes to an hour. A decent stone to polish some parts and a spring swap on the hammer spring. Get the springs from CZ Custom or Cajun Gun Works for maybe $15 all told. Don't mess with the trigger return spring, just do the hammer spring and the recoil spring (if you want).
Our small frame Tanfoglios work just fine. Not sure where the idea they don't work would come from. In fact the small frame work better with 9mm than the large frame do. Parts for Tanfoglios can be ordered from Henning Walgren as well, he usually stocks more than EEA. If that doesn't work, order them from Canada, unless there is a USA reason you can't?
Buying an Elite II is a dicey move. You've got no support left for the gun, and they just don't last like the other options do.
SIGs? Well the good ones are accurate. But I almost never see them at matches, and the ones I do see, I don't typically see again, at least not in the same owners hands.

[YVK]

Buying an Elite II is a dicey move. You've got no support left for the gun

Rob, what specific support does it require? Honest question - I got one sitting here and I don't know if there particular proprietary parts that are hard to get.

[LHS]

Rob, what specific support does it require? Honest question - I got one sitting here and I don't know if there particular proprietary parts that are hard to get.

Other than holsters and slide stops to fit the Brig slide, I don't know of any really proprietary parts that can't be replaced with standard 92 components.

[ToddG]

Other than holsters and slide stops to fit the Brig slide, I don't know of any really proprietary parts that can't be replaced with standard 92 components.

Front sight.

As the removable front sight is a key benefit of the E2 (and the only reason the E1 and E2 were built on Brig slides to begin with) I think it's worth mentioning. Availability of aftermarket Brigadier sights is limited and, with the discontinuation of the guns, likely to get more so.

[LHS]

Front sight.

As the removable front sight is a key benefit of the E2 (and the only reason the E1 and E2 were built on Brig slides to begin with) I think it's worth mentioning. Availability of aftermarket Brigadier sights is limited and, with the discontinuation of the guns, likely to get more so.

True, if you're looking for an aftermarket front. I've almost never seen anyone have to replace a front sight for wear and tear, though.

Out of curiosity, how hard is it to change front sights on an Elite? Mine's staked like a kitten, I've been somewhat afraid to try swapping it out for fear of ruining either the sight in the process.

[LHS]

Oh, and wonder of wonders, Beretta USA's facebook page actually had a blurb a week or two ago asking if people would like to see the Elite series back in production. I doubt anything will come of it, given their penchant for stupidity, but a man can dream.

[Slavex]

Sights, holsters, hammers, slide stops, stainless extractors, already limited availability and I don't see that market improving. Of course in the US, under the PD rules you can get away with aftermarket parts inside the gun so that does give you a few more options.But honestly there are so many other choices out there, why choose something that isn't even made anymore? Don't get me wrong, I loved mine when I shot them competitively, but the lack of any kind of support from Beretta towards the end was the final nail in the coffin. After toasting two frames in two years and not being able to replace those frames as they are slightly different than a standard 92/96 made it impossible for me to continue using them. They are gorgeous guns, but now the one I've cobbled together only comes out to play a few times a year.

[YVK]

Out of curiosity, how hard is it to change front sights on an Elite? Mine's staked like a kitten, I've been somewhat afraid to try swapping it out for fear of ruining either the sight in the process.

I had to go to a gunsmith for this. I have a "universal" sight pusher that actually worked OK on MP and 1911, but couldn't overcome staking on Elite. I had Trij tritium sight thinned and installed. It took about a week wait time for Trijicon to send it to me.


. After toasting two frames in two years and not being able to replace those frames as they are slightly different than a standard 92/96 made it impossible for me to continue using them. They are gorgeous guns, but now the one I've cobbled together only comes out to play a few times a year.

How did you toast two frames in two years?

[Slavex]

First one lasted 21,000ish rounds shooting soft 9mm loads and soft 40 S&W. 147gr and 180gr, with a shock buff, next one lasted around 11,000 rounds. (Can't remember exact round counts right now, but there is a thread on Beretta Forum about it). Both breaks in the frame were nearly identical, to the point you could almost swap the broken pieces from gun to gun. Beretta USA figured the use of a lighter hammer spring was the culprit, even with the shock buffs. However when I returned my frames to the importer I was shown a box full of frames with the exact same break. Again the pieces were almost identical. A bad run of frames is what I was told then. Unfortunately there were no more Elite II frames available. So the importer bought me out for both guns, but let me keep all the parts. I've since then cobbled together a 96 and my 9mm Elite II top end (have both 9mm and .40). I was going to run a 90-Two with an Elite II top end on it, but was advised it wouldn't be legal for PD. So I moved onto Tanfoglio and then CZ, which essentially have the same grip as a Beretta. Although they weigh a lot more.

[FotoTomas]

Of the hammer fired traditional Double Action "TDA" pistols I have had experience with the Beretta 92/96 series and the SIG classic line. There was a Ruger P85 in there somewhere as well . The Beretta was my personal choice as well as duty issue in the 92D flavor (Double Action Only DAO) I also had a plethora of standard 92 F's, some G models, a couple of Type M models in both D and F flavor and a pair of Cougars. One a D model and one a F model. For those that might not know the Beretta line in the TDA guns had the "F" model as a DA pistol with a manual decock lever that doubled as a safety. Down to decock and make safe. The "G" model used the same setup BUT when the lever was pulled down to decock it would then flip up automatically to always keep the weapon ready to go. No manual safety. The "D" style was DAO.

All of my duty guns were DAO and several competition guns were "F" models. I truly prefer the Beretta as my top pick for DAO in a hammer gun but NOT as a competition or duty gun in the "F" model. In my case I had issues with always getting the safety off when shooting a match. Sometimes a brainfart when loading and make ready. Left the safety on and did not properly sweep the thumb during my draw.

Current duty gun is a SIG 229R DAK. I am very happy with it though I prefer the Beretta. Even so I would recommend a SIG over the Beretta to alleviate the manual safety. As others have mentioned the Beretta "G" model avoids that issue but they are harder to find and support is lacking. Especially the Elite models with the brigadier slide that is so hard to find good holsters for.

With your rules I would get a basic 226 or 229 in 9mm and wear it in a while and put any modification issues on hold till you get a feel for the stock gun. A classic SIG is never a bad purchase.

My personal experience with the CZ75 and the new and improved models and clones over the years is sadly lacking. I cannot make a recommendation there but have dealt with slavex over many years and trust his judgment on those platforms.

[Sal Picante]

reading... I haz it. (Deleted)

[Sal Picante]

I had to go to a gunsmith for this. I have a "universal" sight pusher that actually worked OK on MP and 1911, but couldn't overcome staking on Elite. I had Trij tritium sight thinned and installed. It took about a week wait time for Trijicon to send it to me.

I beat mine out with a steel hammer and punch. Actually worked well for several guns now (4 Elites, GSD, and that DAO Brig)

I've had two stock sights break, but don't care that much...

[Sal Picante]

Oh, and wonder of wonders, Beretta USA's facebook page actually had a blurb a week or two ago asking if people would like to see the Elite series back in production. I doubt anything will come of it, given their penchant for stupidity, but a man can dream.

You're welcome.

[Sal Picante]

Other than holsters and slide stops to fit the Brig slide, I don't know of any really proprietary parts that can't be replaced with standard 92 components.

I ordered some 92 non-brig slide stops and noticed that they were actually wide - I wonder if Beretta standardized at some point on making wider slide stops, perhaps due to the 92A1?

[Sal Picante]

First one lasted 21,000ish rounds shooting soft 9mm loads and soft 40 S&W. 147gr and 180gr, with a shock buff, next one lasted around 11,000 rounds. (Can't remember exact round counts right now, but there is a thread on Beretta Forum about it). Both breaks in the frame were nearly identical, to the point you could almost swap the broken pieces from gun to gun. Beretta USA figured the use of a lighter hammer spring was the culprit, even with the shock buffs. However when I returned my frames to the importer I was shown a box full of frames with the exact same break. Again the pieces were almost identical. A bad run of frames is what I was told then. Unfortunately there were no more Elite II frames available. So the importer bought me out for both guns, but let me keep all the parts. I've since then cobbled together a 96 and my 9mm Elite II top end (have both 9mm and .40). I was going to run a 90-Two with an Elite II top end on it, but was advised it wouldn't be legal for PD. So I moved onto Tanfoglio and then CZ, which essentially have the same grip as a Beretta. Although they weigh a lot more.

I'm basing a lot of my knowledge on Ben's former Beretta setup - I know he broke a frame on his much neglected practice beast, but most of his guns actually lasted quite well. I'll have to ask him 'bout specific round counts, etc...

[Slavex]

I was always waiting to hear how many frames he broke, be curious if he ran light hammer springs too?

[Sal Picante]

I was always waiting to hear how many frames he broke, be curious if he ran light hammer springs too?

Just one frame got ruined, from what I know. Interestingly, he never cracked a locking block in all the years he shot a Beretta...

I know he ran F-spring (competition spring) and 9# or lighter recoil spring. I didn't like the fact F-spring wouldn't pop all primers, I use a D-spring.

[LHS]

You're welcome.

Hey, I had my part as well. Every time I saw one of their posts in my FB feed, my standard reply was "Bring back the Elite series!"

[Slavex]

I ran a Langdon competition spring or a D spring if I couldn't source one of those. Don't remember my recoil spring weight, but I don't recall it being anything other than factory?
God I'd have to dig up the books on each gun, but I think I broke one locking block in the gun that went 21,000. I know I have spares somewhere. But I equate locking blocks to slide stops in CZs. They break, that's cheaper than barrels.

1696
1697

Second gun

1698
1699

[farscott]

I do not know the rules for USPSA Production, but when I hear (read) traditional double action and steel/alloy, I think about the S&W 3rd Generation guns. In 9x19, the M5903, 5906, and 6906 can be found for about $300.

These models are no longer produced now except for existing LEO-agency orders, but the guns and parts are plentiful. Magazines can be found for less than $30 and sometimes less than $15. Sight (fixed and really sturdy adjustable) and grip options are available. The guns have a reputation for durability and reliability and S&W will still service them. If you want a challenge, the S&W slide-mounted safety/decocker will provide one. I actually prefer the older DAO guns, which have a trigger that seems to be the inspiration for light-LEM. The DAO trigger is partially staged, and there is no second-strike capability.

[Sal Picante]

I ran a Langdon competition spring or a D spring if I couldn't source one of those. Don't remember my recoil spring weight, but I don't recall it being anything other than factory?
God I'd have to dig up the books on each gun, but I think I broke one locking block in the gun that went 21,000. I know I have spares somewhere. But I equate locking blocks to slide stops in CZs. They break, that's cheaper than barrels.

1696
1697

Second gun

1698
1699

I think you're missing something...

:eek:

[Sal Picante]

I laid it down in Michigan this weekend... Pizza gun ran well except for the idiot behind it... (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?7408-Beretta-92-FS-Compact-(and-general-Beretta-love-lately)/page12)