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oboe
05-14-2011, 07:49 PM
At local indoor range today I shot a hundred rounds from a Beretta 92fs 9mm. In the past, I’ve just banged away and congratulated myself on fair to middling results. Not today. This time I wanted to fire repeated shots from de-cock, double action. It occurred to me maybe late in life (I hope not too late) that the FIRST shot [in DA] is THE MOST important shot - so let’s focus on that.

Am I surprised, frustrated, and seriously pissed off? YES, DAMIT!!!! :mad:

Apparently, from SA I’m not too shabby [well . . . you know, for ME] but from DA - WHOA! Hitting the paper was an event, let alone hitting the target. I guess I’d been in denial before by firing the first shot DA and the remainder of the mag SA. So the blinders are now GONE.:(

Questions: (1) CAN first shot DA proficiency be seriously improved? Keep in mind that I'm looking at 70 for my next birthday in October(2) If so, HOW? (3) If so, how long would it take the average shooter to see some improvement? I mean, if I can’t do better than this, I’ll be moving over to cocked and locked or striker fired. I don't want to become a corpse because I screwed up the first DA shot.:eek:

HELP!!!

mgobel
05-14-2011, 07:57 PM
The short answer is yes. Start with "Fear Not, The Double Action Shot!" on the pistol-training.com site.

Mark

Tamara
05-14-2011, 08:21 PM
There's nothing inherently wrong with a DA trigger pull.

Actually, and even taking into account that my main CCW belt guns are single-action autos, if somebody said "I'll bet you a hunnert dollars that you can't snatch that pistol up off that table and hit that bullseye 25 yards away, right now," I'd want 'that pistol' to be a S&W revolver with a good DA pull.

I think part of the reason for this is the fact that a DA trigger is just easier to dry-practice with than an SA trigger you have to re-cock between snaps...

Blayglock
05-14-2011, 11:45 PM
That article mgoble mentioned was/is a big help to me.

http://pistol-training.com/articles/fear-not-the-double-action-shot

Al T.
05-15-2011, 07:56 AM
Good article. I had a to carry and qualify with a Beretta M92 for a year or so. I found that dry firing helped immensely.

jslaker
05-15-2011, 10:42 AM
That Ernest Langdon article + lots of dryfire is what helped me most when I was still shooting DA/SA.

ToddG
05-15-2011, 12:56 PM
oboe -- Can the DA/SA gun be mastered? Absolutely. It's been proven plenty of times.

However, it requires some dedicated practice. I cannot tell you how many "name" instructors I've met who have little experience with DA guns, can't tell you how to shoot them well, and just dismiss the guns as second rate. The article that was referenced above is a great primer on the DA first shot.

Furthermore, if your grip strength is compromised due to age, injury, arthritis, etc., you are at a greater disadvantage with a long heavy trigger stroke compared to something lighter and shorter.

If the idea of mastering a new system at age 70 is motivational to you, go for it!

But if you're more concerned with the practical capability you'll have with a pistol in the short term, changing to a DA gun is not the easy path.

DonovanM
05-15-2011, 02:13 PM
All it takes is lots of dry fire. I shoot a P226, and what really made the difference for me is the distinction that I'm rowing the trigger - like an oar - not slapping it. Visualizing pulling it straight back, and allowing my brain to figure out exactly how to do it, has also helped me along the process.

Look at it this way, once you can master a 12lb double action pull, you can shoot anything well.

Pistol Shooter
05-15-2011, 03:44 PM
All it takes is lots of dry fire. I shoot a P226, and what really made the difference for me is the distinction that I'm rowing the trigger - like an oar - not slapping it. Visualizing pulling it straight back, and allowing my brain to figure out exactly how to do it, has also helped me along the process.

Look at it this way, once you can master a 12lb double action pull, you can shoot anything well.

Good post. :D

Dry firing has helped me improve enormously with the DA trigger.

oboe
05-15-2011, 04:29 PM
Thanks for the input. Yes, I read the Langston article yesterday - seems that even on other web sites, it's highly recommended. I've also read a lot of other advice, so I have a lot of thinking and a lot of shooting ahead. If after working on this over the next few months it doesn't improve, I then might be better off conceding my lack of skill and moving along to something that works better for me - but first, I will try!

Simon
05-15-2011, 08:26 PM
Thanks for the input. Yes, I read the Langston article yesterday - seems that even on other web sites, it's highly recommended. I've also read a lot of other advice, so I have a lot of thinking and a lot of shooting ahead. If after working on this over the next few months it doesn't improve, I then might be better off conceding my lack of skill and moving along to something that works better for me - but first, I will try!


Oboe, I am older than you, and can fire a DA trigger very well. I learned with one of the spring grip strengtheners. Just turn it upside down and use your trigger finger to squeeze it while holding it like a pistol. Do that every day for a few min. for about a month, then alternate with dry firing a DA pistol. Get one that is difficult to squeeze at first,

czfan
05-15-2011, 11:37 PM
Oboe, I am older than you, and can fire a DA trigger very well. I learned with one of the spring grip strengtheners. Just turn it upside down and use your trigger finger to squeeze it while holding it like a pistol. Do that every day for a few min. for about a month, then alternate with dry firing a DA pistol. Get one that is difficult to squeeze at first,

+100

I am also doing this now and also, here is one insight -

I think that the entire "strong" hand should be strengthened (as in all the fingers) in order that the you will be able to grip the pistol with the lower three digits without causing the trigger finger to move.

That is, with stronger "grip muscles" you can isolate completely the movement of the trigger finger from any influence caused by gripping with the lower three digits. It is one less involuntary movement to worry about.

Hope I explained that well.

vecdran
05-16-2011, 02:51 AM
A strong weak hand grip is very important to a good DA pull IMO. With greater support being provided by the weak hand, you can focus your strong hand on doing a proper pull. Never mind the fact that a strong weak hand grip does wonders for recoil control.

As Todd pointed out to us at one of his classes, you can pretty much apply a crush grip with your weak hand, as all it does is supports.

WDW
05-18-2011, 01:53 AM
I'm no professional by any means, but I feel I am pretty efficient going from DA to SA. It takes alot of dry and live fire. The key is a steady, controlled squeeze learned only by practicing and intimately learning the trigger on your gun. Personally, I feel that Sig has the best DA pull out right now. Also, if you go into a DA pull expecting what you get from a SA pull, you are going to have a bad day. Every night for about a week, get about 15 feet from a light switch panel, draw, get a good sight alignment/picture on the panel and dry fire in DA mode about 50 times. Focus on trigger control and mainting the sight picture and focus on the front sight. You will be amazed at your progress. Also, this is where a laser would come in handy, as you will have a visual reference as to where you are pulling or anticipating after or during the pull. Once you can maintain your picture and alignment all the way through the DA pull, you got it.

mongooseman
06-01-2011, 07:02 PM
"Look at it this way, once you can master a 12lb double action pull, you can shoot anything well."

Big +1 on that statement! Hitting a 8 inch steel target from fifty yards using double action exclusively does great things for your confidence. When qualifying at the 25 yard line I decock between each shot because plinking from a distance has shown me I hit better DA (I discovered this by accident shooting at an empty 50 round 9mm box years ago and graduated to 16 and 12 oz water bottles). I also periodically re-read that article on pistol-training.com to reinforce good habits and eliminate bad ones.

oboe
06-01-2011, 08:36 PM
My own decision has been to go with the S&W M&P9. Shot it, did quite well. I'll have it tomorrow or the next day.

David Armstrong
06-03-2011, 05:06 PM
You mean people have a problem with this??:D
Actually the "practice" mantra is probably the thing to remember. I came up in the old DA revolver days, and used to spend hours pulling the heavy DA trigger over and over, building strength and getting used to the trigger. Then when S&W came out with their 39 and 59 models that DA stroke was already trained into the fingers and I've worked at keeping it there ever since. Just remember to keep the press steady.

ranburr
06-03-2011, 11:32 PM
Your 70yrs old, if you haven't mastered a double action first shot by now, it is doubtful that you will. Not saying that you can't, but why bother. I would just get something that can be carried cocked and locked (1911/CZ 75) or a stryker fired pistol(XD/Glock). With all the options out there, why jack with different trigger pulls if you don't have to?

jslaker
06-04-2011, 08:04 AM
Your 70yrs old, if you haven't mastered a double action first shot by now, it is doubtful that you will.
I don't agree at all.


Not saying that you can't, but why bother.
Shooting DA/SA is a good way to become a more proficient shooter overall, depending on the OP's goals.

JV_
06-04-2011, 08:37 AM
I don't agree at all.Yea, me neither.

Just because you've been doing something for 20 years, doesn't mean you've been doing it correctly for 20 years. Sometimes a little instruction and a few pointers can make a big difference.

LittleLebowski
06-04-2011, 10:54 AM
Your 70yrs old, if you haven't mastered a double action first shot by now, it is doubtful that you will. Not saying that you can't, but why bother. I would just get something that can be carried cocked and locked (1911/CZ 75) or a stryker fired pistol(XD/Glock). With all the options out there, why jack with different trigger pulls if you don't have to?

His life is not over and he is not incapable of learning. The fact that he is here, soliciting advice buttresses my previous statement.

WDW
06-04-2011, 11:45 AM
Your 70yrs old, if you haven't mastered a double action first shot by now, it is doubtful that you will. Not saying that you can't, but why bother. I would just get something that can be carried cocked and locked (1911/CZ 75) or a stryker fired pistol(XD/Glock). With all the options out there, why jack with different trigger pulls if you don't have to?
You're brutal:eek: Most people that shoot DA/SA and train with it are actually very good shooters because they of all people understand the value of trigger control. If this gentleman wants advice on how to become proficient on a platform, I deon't think we should discourage him by telling him (in Yoda voice) MMMMM, too old, too old to begin the training, are you;)

John Hearne
06-04-2011, 01:21 PM
I've been carrying DA/SA Sigs for over ten years by employer mandate and can shoot them fairly well. (sub 5.5 FAST, high Intermediate (106) at Rogers, 2nd place at this year's RM Tactical Conference) With that said, if I could transition to something else with a reasonable, consistent trigger pull, I would in a heartbeat.

It isn't that the platform can't be shot well, it's that it requires extra work. People I respect, say that shooting the DA/SA well required 20-25% more effort than a Glock, M&P, 1911, etc. In a world of finite resources, there isn't much reason to spend those resources working extra hard when you could be a better shot with a different platform.

ToddG
06-05-2011, 12:47 AM
With that said, if I could transition to something else with a reasonable, consistent trigger pull, I would in a heartbeat.\

You wouldn't see any improvement simply by making that switch. At your level of performance, the DA/SA isn't making any difference. If you switched to Glock tomorrow and put 10,000 rounds of dedicated practice into the switch over two months would you be better? Sure. If you took that same 10,000 rounds and put it through your SIG in two months, would you be better? Also yes.

What you will see if you switch to a SFA or SAO gun, though, is that pretty soon you'll find shooting a DA/SA gun less easy than it used to be. Ask me how I know. I can still pick up a SIG or Beretta and shoot it ok, but now the DA trigger that used to be literally unnoticed is something that requires conscious attention. That's a ding on me, 100%, and not the gun.

I'd switch back to a SIG DA/SA with short reset mechanism in a heartbeat if I had confidence in the gun's reliability and durability. That's just an amazingly shootable trigger.

jslaker
06-05-2011, 01:06 AM
That's just an amazingly shootable trigger.

Stop making me miss the SA pull of my recently departed 226, Todd. :mad: