Knives for the FUT

[BoppaBear]

(split from the ready position/disarm thread that was split from an AAR -- ToddG)


Nothing says "Let go of my gun" like a fixed blade to the throat.

Agree 100%. I'm going a bit off topic here (mods I'm happy to start a separate thread if you prefer it), but in light of this comment, what is the most ideal position/method of carry as far as strong side, weak side, or center line carry? I carry AIWB with my reload at 11.

Unfortunately, the state of NC issues CHP's and not CCW's, and concealed fixed blade carry didn't make it into the most recent pro-gun legislation that goes into effect October 1. It allows carry to places that charge admission, restaurants and bars while not drinking, and other public assemblies, as long as there are not signs posted.

As of right now, I'm carrying a CRKT Hissatsu folder in my weak side pocket. I'm thinking I should consider centerline for access from either side.

[GJM]

Slight thread shift, but since the topic came up, what is the thinking on whether a knife is seen as better, worse or indifferent as a defensive tool? Since we have been discussing the Zimmerman case, how might that have played if Zimmerman used a knife instead of his handgun? Thoughts on a fixed blade versus folder?

[Odin Bravo One]

I am not up to speed on NC law. But many places have specific limits on blade length, and under their stated limit is not considered CCW. Obviously, consultation with LE/Counsel would probably be wise prior to. A knife does not have to be big to be effective. I do recall my youth, and my infatuation with huge knives....... but older and, well older.......I've found that even a 1.5" blade is plenty of cut, slash, and puncture/pierce penetration required to hit a coratid artery.

I put little faith in most folders. Even in a non-gun grab situation, if I am going to a knife, I am having a REALLY bad day. REALLY bad day. Grasping, drawing, deploying, and employing a folder while getting my teeth kicked in is not something I have a lot of faith in my abilities to pull off. Grasping, drawing, and employing a FB is difficult enough when getting your hind parts handed to you. I'm not a fan of adding more difficulty. You don't get more XP for upping the difficulty level in this game.

I personally do 11:50 carry. just off the center line. A regular T-shirt conceals it well, and the draw is much like AIWB. My sheaths rotates slightly, allowing me to position the angle to fit my clothes, as well as accessibility while seated, standing, whatever.

You're probably right though........this may need a spin off thread.

ETA.........in addition to the spin off thread, SouthNarc would be a great addition to this particular specific aspect of the topic!

ETA+ ....... Dangerous weapon and deadly weapon can vary from DA to DA in the same state, and most definitely are different state to state. But, following the generally accepted Use of Force Continuum, a knife is still deadly force. Using proper justification, articulation, and case law, the use of deadly force if ruled justified is justified. The means is irrelevant. Of course, this based on experiences from nearly 20 years ago in a little, conservative, rural, redneck location. With the advent of the internet, instant communications, social media, warped media, swaying the court of public opinion seems to be nearly, if not equally (or more so) as important as the court of law.

[ToddG]

Thread split per request.

KUT = kittened up tangle

[BoppaBear]

I am not up to speed on NC law. But many places have specific limits on blade length, and under their stated limit is not considered CCW. Obviously, consultation with LE/Counsel would probably be wise prior to. A knife does not have to be big to be effective. I do recall my youth, and my infatuation with huge knives....... but older and, well older.......I've found that even a 1.5" blade is plenty of cut, slash, and puncture/pierce penetration required to hit a coratid artery.

I put little faith in most folders. Even in a non-gun grab situation, if I am going to a knife, I am having a REALLY bad day. REALLY bad day. Grasping, drawing, deploying, and employing a folder while getting my teeth kicked in is not something I have a lot of faith in my abilities to pull off. Grasping, drawing, and employing a FB is difficult enough when getting your hind parts handed to you. I'm not a fan of adding more difficulty. You don't get more XP for upping the difficulty level in this game.

I personally do 11:50 carry. just off the center line. A regular T-shirt conceals it well, and the draw is much like AIWB. My sheaths rotates slightly, allowing me to position the angle to fit my clothes, as well as accessibility while seated, standing, whatever.

You're probably right though........this may need a spin off thread.

ETA.........in addition to the spin off thread, SouthNarc would be a great addition to this particular specific aspect of the topic!

ETA+ ....... Dangerous weapon and deadly weapon can vary from DA to DA in the same state, and most definitely are different state to state. But, following the generally accepted Use of Force Continuum, a knife is still deadly force. Using proper justification, articulation, and case law, the use of deadly force if ruled justified is justified. The means is irrelevant. Of course, this based on experiences from nearly 20 years ago in a little, conservative, rural, redneck location. With the advent of the internet, instant communications, social media, warped media, swaying the court of public opinion seems to be nearly, if not equally (or more so) as important as the court of law.

Agree that deploying a knife is not the ideal situation and simplicity/efficiency is ideal. Ironically, NC has come a long way in the last 2 years as far as firearms carry, but it's still illegal to conceal a fixed blade of any kind. IIRC, the blade length must be 3.5" or less. I have a sub 3" Izula II that makes for a great concealed FB, but it equals possible confiscation and charges.

This is an area that I would love to explore as far as training, etc.

[Clyde from Carolina]

Agreed, NC has come a long way, baby...but concealed fixed blade stuff still a bit kittened as far as I can tell. We still have the going armed to the terror of the public law, which can make open carry a lot more problematic than some people realize.

Oh well, still not as bad as our brothers and sisters have it in some other places.

[Sigfan26]

Agree that deploying a knife is not the ideal situation and simplicity/efficiency is ideal. Ironically, NC has come a long way in the last 2 years as far as firearms carry, but it's still illegal to conceal a fixed blade of any kind. IIRC, the blade length must be 3.5" or less. I have a sub 3" Izula II that makes for a great concealed FB, but it equals possible confiscation and charges.

This is an area that I would love to explore as far as training, etc.

IDK the legalities, but you could have a sheath made for a folding knife in the open position. Technically, it is still a folding knife, just stored/carried in the open position for ease of deployment.

[41magfan]

Our weapons statutes here in NC are certainly ambiguous in some regards, but not so much with knives. With regards to "concealed" carry, fixed blades of any length are prohibited but there are no restrictions on the blade length of folders, per se. (see below)

"This section does not apply to an ordinary pocket knife carried in a closed position. As used in this section, "ordinary pocket knife" means a small knife, designed for carrying in a pocket or purse, that has its cutting edge and point entirely enclosed by its handle, and that may not be opened by a throwing, explosive, or spring action."

[Odin Bravo One]

Yea, that sucks. I'd figure as redneckified as NC is, they would be a little more open to redneck stuff. Like carrying a knife on your belt.

A roll of nickels in a sock can work in a pinch too. I mean, if the law says you can't have this, can't carry that, you might have to get creative to go beyond the gun and still be in compliance. Whatever that next option is, I consider training with it so it can be employed effectively to more important than the what.

[Corlissimo]

Yea, that sucks. I'd figure as redneckified as NC is, they would be a little more open to redneck stuff. Like carrying a knife on your belt.

A roll of nickels in a sock can work in a pinch too. I mean, if the law says you can't have this, can't carry that, you might have to get creative to go beyond the gun and still be in compliance. Whatever that next option is, I consider training with it so it can be employed effectively to more important than the what.

I believe that saps are legal here in NC. I've been considering one or two as an addition to my pistol, P'kal, and my ZT0350.


~ Typos brought to you by my lazyness & in attention to detail.

[Plan]

Yeah the situation with fixed blades in NC is unfortunate. However, something as simple as a Uniball pen can be clipped upside down inside a belt and be deployed pretty quickly. Obviously not as effective as a quality knife, but it's probably one of the most innocent items you could have on you.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Slight thread shift, but since the topic came up, what is the thinking on whether a knife is seen as better, worse or indifferent as a defensive tool? Since we have been discussing the Zimmerman case, how might that have played if Zimmerman used a knife instead of his handgun? Thoughts on a fixed blade versus folder?

Why you are in the situation matters more than what you used to get out of the situation.

Those who listened to me drone on about the Zimmerman case will tell you I'm not one of the biggest fans of his choice to get out of the car when he knows something suspicious enough to merit a 911 call was occurring, especially when he had no legal duty or reason (being a neighborhood watchman does NOT count) to investigate or intervene in Trevon Martin's actions.

Once he was in the situation and under assault, however...I do not think it would have made much difference what he used. A FUT is a FUT...and weapon based fights at close quarters are NOT pretty.

The aftermath of a self defense use of force situation depends more on your decision making related to how you ended up in the situation rather than your use of force options once it turns to lethal threats.

[41magfan]

It may be worth noting that some states (like NC) have statutory defenses cited in the language;


(b1) It is a defense to a prosecution under this section that:

(1) The weapon was not a firearm;

(2) The defendant was engaged in, or on the way to or from, an activity in which he legitimately used the weapon;

(3) The defendant possessed the weapon for that legitimate use; and

(4) The defendant did not use or attempt to use the weapon for an illegal purpose.


This may not prevent you from being charged but it should prove helpful in mitigating a conviction.


As Cooper stated many times, surviving an encounter is Problem 1 - making it flush with the CJ system is Problem 2. I know such places exist, but I'd sure hate to live in a locale where the concerns surrounding Problem 2 undermined the preparations made for effectively dealing with Problem 1.

[GJM]

The aftermath of a self defense use of force situation depends more on your decision making related to how you ended up in the situation rather than your use of force options once it turns to lethal threats.

If you are suggesting that what you shoot or cut someone with, and how many times, doesn't matter -- I be interested in how you came to this conclusion?

[Mitchell, Esq.]

If you are suggesting that what you shoot or cut someone with, and how many times, doesn't matter -- I be interested in how you came to this conclusion?

I didn't say it doesn't matter, I said "Why you are in the situation matters more than what you used to get out of the situation."

One of the first things anyone reviewing the incident will look at to determine justification is "why?"

Why did the situation occur? Did you precipitate it? Did you encourage it? Did you aggravate a situation and make it go hands on unjustifiably?

These are preliminary questions that need to get answered before you go to what level of force was used, and what the implement was.

I hate scenarios...but fine...

Using a ground & pound/FUT like the GZ-TM incident, but with the shooter being X, who was outside his house throwing out pizza boxes into the bin behind his condo, who is suddenly confronted by a guy who says "Why are you following me?!?!" and is struck, grounded, mounted and assaulted, X uses lethal force to defend himself by opening our prospective assailant from kidney's to naval with a CQC-6...

After the people are identified, and the scene is secured, police tend to start asking questions about the incident, and they begin to ask "Why did this happen?"

They ask why X was in that location, what he was doing, and if he had anything to do with starting the incident off.

Let's assume we get it all sorted out, and it's revealed that "G" had been following our assailant, first in his car, then on foot and called it in to 911, and our assailant was evading him, then thought "G" had gotten in front of him and ambushed him, so our assailant, a 'street scholar' decides to use 'urban conflict resolution strategy #1(Unarmed/ground & pound)', and our knife guy X decided he didn't like 'urban conflict resolution strategy #1(Unarmed/ground & pound)' because for some reason, he believed his head smashed into to parking lot by someone who had just punched him constituted an imminent, otherwise unavoidable threat of death or grave harm - so he draws his circa 1999 CQC-6, puts it into use like a monkey with a sharp stick.

OK, it's ugly...but when we ask what happened, we can pretty clearly identify that someone didn't contribute to the situation (our guy with the knife, X...) and got himself out of a deadly force situation with deadly force use.

But the manner of force is less critical to the situation than WHY WAS THE FORCE USED - and as part of the determination of why the force was used...it will be inquired as to why the person using force was in the situation in the first place.

We know X used the knife on someone - that's part of the self defense justification...

But what happened to make this event occur - that's more important than what happened when it went to weapons.

Yes, the manner of force is inquired into as well, as well as the appropriateness of the level of force; but, if you don't survive the preliminaries, you never get to that point.

[GJM]

OK, so let's get past the why you were there question, and focus on an otherwise "good" shooting. Does it matter whether you shoot or stab to defend? if you stab, does it matter if fixed versus folder, and how you cut with the knife?

[Mitchell, Esq.]

OK, so let's get past the why you were there question, and focus on an otherwise "good" shooting. Does it matter whether you shoot or stab to defend? if you stab, does it matter if fixed versus folder, and how you cut with the knife?

Folder v. Fixed - is one illegal? Is your fixed blade a "dagger, dirk..." or something specifically prohibited?

Where on the body, sure. You will have to explain what happened, and how the fight went at some point. Why you were stabbing someone in the back is a valid question - answerable because he may have been chest to chest with you, and you got the blade past him, then into him to get him off you.

You need to account for your actions, just like any other incident.

[Byron]

CQB/Disarm thread split from AAR

Knives for KUT thread split from CQB/Disarm thread

Next up: Legal/Court/Jury perception of tool use in self defense thread split from Knife Access KUT thread

We've gotta be on track to set a record for thread splits! ;)

[Mitchell, Esq.]

CQB/Disarm thread split from AAR

Knives for KUT thread split from CQB/Disarm thread

Next up: Legal/Court/Jury perception of tool use in self defense thread split from Knife Access KUT thread

We've gotta be on track to set a record for thread splits! ;)

glad to know that I am doing my part!

[Dropkick]

I've seen fixed blades carried on the belt forward of the hips come out during several FUTs (Fouled Up Tangles) incredibly fast. Even with very little space there is still room to stab, slash, rip, where deploying a handgun wouldn't be viable. It was eye opening the first time I witnessed it.

[Dropkick]

Considering the use of a legally carried deadly weapon is open to the interpretation of the penal code and opinions of: Law Enforcement, Lawyers, Judge, Jury, Politicians, Media, Public, etc. I feel like you'd have a better chance of all of them agreeing on where to go for lunch (and who should pay the tab) compared to "this weapon" vs. "that weapon" used in self defense.

[BoppaBear]

Agreed, NC has come a long way, baby...but concealed fixed blade stuff still a bit kittened as far as I can tell. We still have the going armed to the terror of the public law, which can make open carry a lot more problematic than some people realize.

Oh well, still not as bad as our brothers and sisters have it in some other places.

Yep, completely agree and am not complaining. Like many states, NC is a microcosm for the Nation as a whole, in that a lot of our laws could stand being looked at, revised, or just plain dropped.

FB carry is still an issue yet to be addressed, but if I had to choose between the laws that went into place in 2011, HB 937 passing and going into place in October 2013, and fixed blade carry, I'll take the firearms improvements any day.

Being able to carry in what WERE gun free zones, as long as it isn't posted, is a huge improvement that I will gladly oblige.

[SouthNarc]

ETA.........in addition to the spin off thread, SouthNarc would be a great addition to this particular specific aspect of the topic!



I can't participate meaningfully when my acronym has been modified. Saying kitten is ghey.

[ToddG]

I can't participate meaningfully when my acronym has been modified. Saying kitten is ghey.

So what you're saying is that I got inside your OODA loop and shut you down. :cool:

[Sigfan26]

I can't participate meaningfully when my acronym has been modified. Saying kitten is ghey.

Lol! Awesome!

[SouthNarc]

So what you're saying is that I got inside your OODA loop and shut you down. :cool:

You've been wanting inside my loop for quite some time you big queen!

[1slow]

Painful picture at best !

[NickA]

I move that the thread title be changed back to FUT (Fouled Up Tangle) so we can get SN's input.
Also move that SN and TLG get it over with and get a room already :eek:

[ToddG]

Knives. KUT. Get it? Meh, you guys are lame. Title changed.

[Tamara]

Knives. KUT. Get it?

We were laughing on the inside. :o

[Chuck Haggard]

Knives. KUT.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsL1E_-kr2Q