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part-time shooter
05-13-2011, 08:59 PM
I've been looking at different Bushmasters and a Remington, the look like SCAR varients, instead of jumping on the AR bandwagon. I just find it hard to believe an AR is still state of the art 50 years after the widespread use of the platform. I guess the same could be said for the 1911.

Does anyone have any experience with these rifles? or maybe the updated AUG?

Thanks.

jslaker
05-13-2011, 09:15 PM
The only thing about the AR less than state of the art are the ergos. Otherwise it is one of the most reliable, simple, and easy to service rifles around. The ACR and SCAR are nice for modern ergonomics, but I don't know that I see paying 2x as much as a very nice AR for one.

Tamara
05-13-2011, 09:21 PM
The only thing about the AR less than state of the art are the ergos. Otherwise it is one of the most reliable, simple, and easy to service rifles around. The ACR and SCAR are nice for modern ergonomics, but I don't know that I see paying 2x as much as a very nice AR for one.

...and, really, the only thing wrong with the AR's ergos is the charging handle, and even that can be mitigated with the right aftermarket part.

Sincerely,
Tamara (ex-AK-owner, ex-HK91-owner, ex-FAL-owner, ex-Daewoo-DR200-owner, ex-Beretta-AR70-owner, ex-M14-owner, ex... well, whatever ...owner, still-current-DI-AR-owner.)

LittleLebowski
05-13-2011, 09:34 PM
It's called evolution. What do you think you'd be getting out of the SCAR/ACr over the AR? How much carbine training do you have?

Vinh
05-13-2011, 10:14 PM
Does the SCAR 16S count?

I've only got 4.7k through mine. Was there anything in particular you wanted to know?

jslaker
05-13-2011, 10:57 PM
...and, really, the only thing wrong with the AR's ergos is the charging handle, and even that can be mitigated with the right aftermarket part.

Sincerely,
Tamara (ex-AK-owner, ex-HK91-owner, ex-FAL-owner, ex-Daewoo-DR200-owner, ex-Beretta-AR70-owner, ex-M14-owner, ex... well, whatever ...owner, still-current-DI-AR-owner.)

I'm not a fan of the bolt release (far moreso than the charging handle), personally. Some of the aftermarket parts from companies like Magpul help, but it's a bandaid.

Tamara
05-14-2011, 08:34 AM
I'm not a fan of the bolt release (far moreso than the charging handle), personally. Some of the aftermarket parts from companies like Magpul help, but it's a bandaid.
Y'know, I never had a problem with the bolt release when I was still using a front-of-the-magwell hold... :p

YVK
05-14-2011, 08:45 AM
About 3K rounds through SCAR 16S, about 750 through SCAR 17s. Few things are better than with AR, few things are worse; all depends on one's preferences.

Jay Cunningham
05-14-2011, 08:56 AM
I'm actually a big fan of the general layout of the ACR... now if they can just get the rest of the gun squared-away we'd really have something...

I also happen to be a big fan of the DI system in the AR.

Tamara
05-14-2011, 09:00 AM
YVK,

The SCAR is the first one that's really interested me; the only things that hold me back are price and the lack of aftermarket support.

part-time shooter
05-14-2011, 09:06 AM
Does the SCAR 16S count?

I've only got 4.7k through mine. Was there anything in particular you wanted to know?

How similar are the manual of arms for the SCAR versus the AR? malfunction clearances etc? is there anything you dislike about the SCAR? I've handled one but never fired one, same with the newer varient AUG, which is a very handy size.

I'm very familiar with the AR and I was contemplating picking up a Daniel Defense to play with and see what's new in the way of pieces and parts. All of my AR experience is with the full sized rifle with iron sights from way back when the AR wasn't cool and mounting an optic on one wasn't a trivial task. Same with the HK and M1A and a M1 in .308, all great rifles that I got rid of for some reason or another.

I guess I view the M4's current popularity as another fad and I want to make sure I don't spend my money on the wrong rifle, even if it's not "the" thing right now. The cost of a SCAR is easily matched building and tinkering with an AR to get it "just right", which I WILL DO. If my addiction to 1911s taught me nothing else it's that I'll tinker a gun to death given the slightest opportunity. The newer rifles are what they are, there's not an after market industry slely devoted to supporting those rifles with literally thousands of parts to try and blow money on. With a newer rifle you mount an optic on it and shoot it, there's not much else you can do.

jslaker
05-14-2011, 09:11 AM
I'm actually a big fan of the general layout of the ACR... now if they can just get the rest of the gun squared-away we'd really have something...

I love the ACR concept. I just wish Busmaster/Remington had stuck to one of the aspects Magpul had targeted during development - a pricepoint about in line with a high-end AR.

Jay Cunningham
05-14-2011, 09:11 AM
I guess I view the M4's current popularity as another fad

How do you justify this statement?

Jay Cunningham
05-14-2011, 09:13 AM
I love the ACR concept. I just wish Busmaster/Remington had stuck to one of the aspects Magpul had targeted during development - a pricepoint about in line with a high-end AR.

I suspect that the design is salvageable... first thing I would scrap is the unnecessary quick-change barrel system. Next get a hammer-forged lightweight 1/7 barrel in there.

Tamara
05-14-2011, 09:13 AM
If my addiction to 1911s taught me nothing else it's that I'll tinker a gun to death given the slightest opportunity. The newer rifles are what they are, there's not an after market industry slely devoted to supporting those rifles with literally thousands of parts to try and blow money on. With a newer rifle you mount an optic on it and shoot it, there's not much else you can do.

Oh, I agree on that. When I say "aftermarket support", mind you, I'm not talking about being able to buy custom anodized titanium roll pins, I'm talking about the fact that if my bolt cracked in half right now at 10:11AM on a Saturday morning, I could go buy a new one from a half dozen different places in town and not have my gun deadlined until customer service got around to helping me out. ;)

jslaker
05-14-2011, 09:16 AM
Next get a hammer-forged lightweight 1/7 barrel in there.

Yeah, at the price they're charging, the 1:9 barrel is near unforgivable, IMO.

YVK
05-14-2011, 09:17 AM
How similar are the manual of arms for the SCAR versus the AR? malfunction clearances etc? is there anything you dislike about the SCAR? I've handled one but never fired one, same with the newer varient AUG, which is a very handy size.


Manual of arms is pretty close and transition from AR to 16s is easy; 17s is a bit different.
Malfunction clearances are an absolute breeze, much faster than with AR. For immediate action, you don't need to take rifle off the target. For remedial action, right handed shooter can lock bolt back with one hand. It really shines here.

Dislikes: short and tall foregrip with limited rail space. It is almost silly how little space is on the sides; I have to use tape switch for my light. IMO, they should include rail extension in the package. Don't like the design of front sight. Need to think optic mount choices carefully. Above all, limited parts supply, although some are available.

part-time shooter
05-14-2011, 12:09 PM
Oh, I agree on that. When I say "aftermarket support", mind you, I'm not talking about being able to buy custom anodized titanium roll pins, I'm talking about the fact that if my bolt cracked in half right now at 10:11AM on a Saturday morning, I could go buy a new one from a half dozen different places in town and not have my gun deadlined until customer service got around to helping me out. ;)

That's an excellent point and a good case for buying enough spare parts or a more easily maintained AR in case the modern gun goes down.

jbmilitary006
05-14-2011, 12:23 PM
I love the AR and basically everything about it. I have been running a Bushmaster for the last 6 years. I have put thousands of rounds through it and haven't had to replace any parts. The only thing I've done to it is added a Viking Tactics tube, tact lever on the charging handle, Redi-Mag, MI sling plate, Viking Tactics sling and flashlight mount with a Surefire flashlight, Magpul grip, Troy BUIS, and finally Aimpoint Comp M4s w/ LaRue Tactical QD Mount.

I know that SOF has now switched to the FN Scar, but some still use the AR. All the greats have used/still use the AR today. For example: SOF, CAG, DEVGRU, SEALS, Rangers, AF PJ's and CCT, ect.

part-time shooter
05-14-2011, 12:25 PM
How do you justify this statement?

My personal opinion actually, but it seems to me that the current explosion of AR rifles coincides with the current issues in the middle east and the many many men and women serving in that area of the world. I'm willing to bet that for a large majority of those in the service the M4 was the first rifle they'd ever held and fired. It's what they know and what they'll want to keep with them even after they leave the service or want a personal one stateside with which to train or just plink.

I also believe that there are a TON of men and women too that were never exposed to shooting early on as many of us were in the 60's, 70's, and to a lesser extent the 80's. I know I still meet guys now in their mid to late 30s just "discovering" the shooting sports. They flock to the internet to educate themselves, hopefully, and are met with a huge amount of information on the AR rifle and little else other than the AK and it's almost as bad and there seems to be more voodoo involved in getting a "good" AK.

I think if the US issued MP5s to most troops then you'd be seeing the same thing with it and not the M4, and 9mm would cost $1/round.

of course that's just my opinion and everyone knows what those are like....:o

jslaker
05-14-2011, 12:41 PM
I think if the US issued MP5s to most troops then you'd be seeing the same thing with it and not the M4, and 9mm would cost $1/round.

I'm not aware of another platform outside the AR that provides autofeeding an intermediate+ size round with the kind of accuracy and flexibility of the AR and at the price point that the AR hits that's readily available to civilians.

You can have an AR that's anything from a home-defense carbine tricked out with all the tactical gear to an AR set up for long distance shooting with a free floated barrel and appropriate optics. That's the reason ARs are so popular.

Tamara
05-14-2011, 01:11 PM
My personal opinion actually, but it seems to me that the current explosion of AR rifles coincides with the current issues in the middle east and the many many men and women serving in that area of the world. I'm willing to bet that for a large majority of those in the service the M4 was the first rifle they'd ever held and fired.

The biggest jump in commercial popularity in the AR platform probably occurred in the late-80s and early-90s, and was caused by a combination of the gun going "open source" and the neutering of imports by the Bush Scary Imported Black Rifle Ban of '89. (Thank you, Bill Bennett, you meddlesome jerk!)

Also, remember that back before '94, EBRs were a tiny niche market. When they got popular due to the AWB, what were your choices on the market, really? Either an AR clone of some sort, or an awful AK parts gun that looked and ran like it had been assembled by angry monkeys.

orionz06
05-14-2011, 01:37 PM
I just find it hard to believe an AR is still state of the art 50 years after the widespread use of the platform.

What would state of the art be?

jbmilitary006
05-14-2011, 01:41 PM
I think if the US issued MP5s to most troops then you'd be seeing the same thing with it and not the M4, and 9mm would cost $1/round.

of course that's just my opinion and everyone knows what those are like....:o


I disagree, and even if the US did issue MP5s to "most troops" I can grantee you SOF would not go back to using them. Why would I want my primary weapon to be a small caliber such as 9mm or any pistol caliber.

Jay Cunningham
05-14-2011, 01:56 PM
What would state of the art be?

I am wondering the same thing.

Neither the SCAR nor ACR (nor anything else I can think of readily) uses an operating principle that is remarkably different from what we saw in use 65 years ago.

jslaker
05-14-2011, 02:30 PM
I am wondering the same thing.

Neither the SCAR nor ACR (nor anything else I can think of readily) uses an operating principle that is remarkably different from what we saw in use 65 years ago.

Most of the new "modern high tech" rifles are just AR-18 actions wrapped up in a fancy shell. Even that's not anything all that new, that's essentially what the UK's L85 weapons system is, after all, and it's what? 25 years old?

Odin Bravo One
05-14-2011, 06:52 PM
I have spent a good number of years and sent more than several thousands of rounds down range with the SCAR family.

Rather than turn this into a silly "which is better" argument......I'll say this:

The SCAR has some advantages for institutional use. It has some advantages for lefties.

The AR has some advantages for institutional use. It has several advantages for individual use in the U.S. It has some disadvantages for lefties.

If there were a SCAR, or AK, or AR set up to my preferences, in an emergency situation, the one I would grab and go with would be the one that happened to be closest to me.

It honestly becomes a preference thing. Ergonomically, bore diameter, controls, etc., are all pretty equal for all practical intents and purposes. Rather than discuss which is better, it is probably more practical to discuss preferences.

It's the wizard, not the wand. And just because SOCOM chose it, does not mean it is good. Or preferred. Or even liked by the guys who have it forced on them.

jlw
05-14-2011, 07:11 PM
I have ARs. I prefer a lever action .30-30.

Kyle Reese
05-14-2011, 09:48 PM
I own an FS 2000 bullpup as a non AR 5.56mm weapon. It offers no discerable improvements over the DI AR system for me, and has many features that I don't find desirable or useful on a defensive carbine.

It's the perfect example of "carbine designed by guys who have never been to the range or shot a gun before".

jbmilitary006
05-15-2011, 01:32 AM
Very well put sir... that is all.

SmokeJumper
05-16-2011, 04:46 PM
I'm a bit late to this posting, and by no means an expert on either the AR or other non AR variants, but I had an opportunity to assist in another agency's T&E of long guns for a new replacement acquisition a few months back. Of the choices we fired in the .308 family, the SCAR was one available. It was a blast to shoot and run through a few drills with on the range. Currently carrying and deploying an AR/M4 variant and occasionally an MP5 on a daily basis, all I can do is agree with SeanM's earlier remarks. Both have disadvantages and advantages, but the perfect one is the one at hand when I need it now.

YVK
05-16-2011, 04:58 PM
Of the choices we fired in the .308 family, the SCAR was one available. It was a blast to shoot and run through a few drills with on the range.

I ran SCAR-17s through 2 days of a carbine class earlier this month. Blast to shoot has a literal meaning here. I was able to keep up with 5.56 shooters for the most part, but it wasn't easy and I switched to 5.56 during last day. Unlike 16s, with 17s there are issues to deal with beyond ergos and caliber difference. That's about all I could get out of two days of drills; I am sure some of our SMEs could provide more meaningful info.

Al T.
05-16-2011, 07:27 PM
The SCAR 17 may be on my want list. I have fired the SCAR 16 and thought it was very controllable, but didn't urge me to sell my ARs. The 17 on the other paw, has me eyeing my M1As.

Plus side for the SCAR 17 - better for optics. Downside, magazine expense. I have a bunch of M14 mags, so that would be an offset, if I could sell'em.

I'm not shooting it a lot, but Ruger's latest Mini-14 is much better than the old ones. I find that for new or handicapped shooters, the Garand style action is easier to understand and manipulate than the AR. Slower to reload though.

TCinVA
05-17-2011, 06:50 AM
I just find it hard to believe an AR is still state of the art 50 years after the widespread use of the platform.


The unfortunate truth is that there just isn't anything on the market these days that is appreciably better for the intended task than the AR. Lots of companies have poured money into coming up with a better mousetrap but so far nobody has figured one out for most tasks. Some options like the SCAR have some potential advantages in terms of the useful service life of some critical parts and armorer support, but for the average individual those advantages are largely theoretical. If you're fielding large numbers of weapons then you'd see some of those advantages...but at what cost? When a new weapon is fielded there's the expense of the weapon, the expense of the accessories, training, replacement parts, logistical headaches...do the benefits outweigh all those other concerns for an agency issuing the weapon?

Most of the "new" guns like the ACR or the SCAR start out costing more than it would cost for a Colt 6920 with an Aimpoint, sling, and a flashlight mounted on the rifle...all the stuff you really need on it. The Colt will perform any task you can reasonably ask the other two weapons to do, parts are readily available from any number of sources and it's almost infinitely customizable thanks to a massive aftermarket. It's really hard to objectively justify the expense of the other guns for the overwhelming majority of users.

The AR family isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

orionz06
05-17-2011, 06:56 AM
The new lowers coming out as of late are going pretty far to close the gap between the SCAR/ACR in terms of manipulations as well.

I think the next advancement, though not a terribly new idea, is the Colt CM-901.

Odin Bravo One
05-24-2011, 03:28 PM
I have met a few people who have had the SCAR family pushed on them, and there is a true "Love/Hate" relationship with it, with a few who are somewhat indifferent. Some love it. Some hate it. Some love to hate it. Some see merit to it.........pending some redesign and engineering changes that are not likely to happen any time soon. The gun is accurate, and it functions. No one can argue that. But it is not as user friendly as most would like.

An interesting side note, the 5.56 version was discarded very shortly after being fielded for operational testing. Seems the guys spending their time out in the field shooting people didn't see any advantage over the M4. The 7.62 has hung around to examine if this is the solution to a perceived capability gap in not having a standard 7.62 rifle available.

It is not without issues though. The 7.62 is notoriously hard on optics, causing many to break. Not surprising, but a certain brand of popular RDS cannot go more than a few rounds without breaking. The charging handle continues to be a problem hanging up on everything from slings to gear, the selector lever can be difficult to manipulate, the ambi-magazine release likes to release magazines when the rifle is slung, and there is not enough room on the rifle for guys to hang what needs to be hung on them.

Let us remember that the M4/M16 family of rifles did not start out as the reliable, accurate, and adaptable platform it has become today. It took over 50 years to get it to where it is today, and yet we still see innovators coming up with solutions of varying quality to problems, or at least to perceived problems. Already there are people coming up with aftermarket solutions to some of the SCAR shortcomings, but it will be awhile before it is where the AR is in terms of performance, and adapability to the need at hand.

Jay Cunningham
05-24-2011, 03:40 PM
An interesting side note, the 5.56 version was discarded very shortly after being fielded for operational testing. Seems the guys spending their time out in the field shooting people didn't see any advantage over the M4. The 7.62 has hung around to examine if this is the solution to a perceived capability gap in not having a standard 7.62 rifle available.

It is not without issues though. The 7.62 is notoriously hard on optics, causing many to break. Not surprising, but a certain brand of popular RDS cannot go more than a few rounds without breaking. The charging handle continues to be a problem hanging up on everything from slings to gear, the selector lever can be difficult to manipulate, the ambi-magazine release likes to release magazines when the rifle is slung, and there is not enough room on the rifle for guys to hang what needs to be hung on them.

Thanks very much for the info!

David Armstrong
05-26-2011, 11:11 AM
I have ARs. I prefer a lever action .30-30.
Interesting how that works out. I had 2 ARs, an original full-size Colt and an M4gery. Finally got rid of the M4, put the AR away in the SHTF safe, and an M1 Carbine has become my go-to gun. My son-in-law is assigned an AR for duty use, but for home protection he chose a Winchester 94 in 30-30.

Kyle Reese
05-26-2011, 12:32 PM
I have ARs. I prefer a lever action .30-30.

Nothing wrong with that. I really like the M4 platform, and can shoot them reasonably well. I'm still debating picking up a SCAR 17 one of these days for the heck of it.

Odin Bravo One
05-27-2011, 01:59 AM
I'm still debating picking up a SCAR 17 one of these days for the heck of it.

That has to be one of the best reasons I have heard to date on buying one.

jslaker
05-27-2011, 02:11 AM
and an M1 Carbine has become my go-to gun.

Man, I haven't gotten around to acquiring one yet, but I really love the idea of .30 carbine as an all around home gun. You get 800-1000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy, something at least a little less deafening than 5.56 indoors, something with a bit more effective range than a shotgun.

I've wished for some time that somebody would make a modernized carbine in the caliber. Taurus supposedly has a .30 carbine in the works, but.... Taurus.

Kyle Reese
05-27-2011, 09:20 AM
Man, I haven't gotten around to acquiring one yet, but I really love the idea of .30 carbine as an all around home gun. You get 800-1000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy, something at least a little less deafening than 5.56 indoors, something with a bit more effective range than a shotgun.

I've wished for some time that somebody would make a modernized carbine in the caliber. Taurus supposedly has a .30 carbine in the works, but.... Taurus.

Well..... this is the ideal time to get that suppressor you've always wanted, right? :cool::cool:

Doug
06-05-2011, 11:56 PM
Man, I haven't gotten around to acquiring one yet, but I really love the idea of .30 carbine as an all around home gun. You get 800-1000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy, something at least a little less deafening than 5.56 indoors, something with a bit more effective range than a shotgun.

I've wished for some time that somebody would make a modernized carbine in the caliber. Taurus supposedly has a .30 carbine in the works, but.... Taurus.

Got me curious. Is this it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IFa2FO_9x4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IFa2FO_9x4

Doug
06-06-2011, 12:04 AM
One more:

http://www.taurusarmas.com.br/carabina-taurus-ct30-30carbine-policia-forcasarmadas

Kind of sig 550ish...

Prdator
07-02-2011, 08:13 AM
Just found this thread.

Ive been running the Robinson Arms XCR for a few years now, and Love them!!! I have had one issue with the bolt on one of my guns, sent it in and it was
fixed and shipped back out the same day.... Not saying they do that all the time but it worked for me. I have about 7K though one of mine and it has not been cleaned in a Very long time it's almost 100% I've had one pice of brass bounce back in the gun and jam it up..

here is a article that I'm in shooting my XCR at a Jason Falla ( Red Back One) class this last Dec. http://bit.ly/k16fz8

Wheeler
07-02-2011, 09:21 PM
I had an opportunity to shoot a series of Defensive Multigun matches a few months ago. Due to the range restrictions, pistol caliber carbines only were allowed on the range. As I didn't (at the time) have anything in pistol caliber other than some Model 94 lever-actions, that's what I shot with, sort of a run what you brung type of thing.

A couple of disclaimers, I don't shoot cowboy action, and very rarely do my lever guns come out anymore. Having said that, I consistently out shot and out performed platforms such as the Beretta carbine, Kel-Tec's S-2000, even an Uzi carbine. I'll take .357 Mag out of a 16" barrel over any auto loader pistol caliber with the possible exception of a 10mm.

Lever Actions used to be the go-to assault rifle for many police departments. Other than magazine capacity and shot to shot splits, and I question those as advantages given the typical mission of the gun, what advantages do you have with an AR, AK, etc. type platform?

Wheeler

Odin Bravo One
07-02-2011, 10:13 PM
Interesting observations, and while I can't speak for the skill, or lackthereof of a given person with a given arm, I guess I would argue that since the majority of AR based systems are active in the military.........those two points about magazine capacity and shot to shot splits are pretty important aspects given the mission of the rifle.

I personally like and appreciate my .357 levergun (also my GF's #1 favorite rifle in my inventory). It does what it was designed to do, and does it pretty well. But if we are talking strictly about non-military AR's............ what it doesn't do that an AR or AK or CAR or other "evil assault rifle" can is allow me to engage threats across a wide range of scenarios. Mostly scenarios that I cannot predict, for if I KNEW I was going to task with 40 banditos, I would most certainly choose a different course of action than toe to toe with muskets. Probably entice them into congretating at a specific location, then bombarding it with artillery. But since I do not KNOW with any degree of certainty what my active shooter, home invasion, SWAT Call-Out, LE Patrol "might" entail, choosing a primary rifle system that enables a degree of adaptibility to the environment makes more sense than showing up to the fight with a magnum pistol caliber levergun and hoping it was all the gun needed to solve the issues at hand. In most cases, the levergun would "probably" be plenty and then some. Key words are "MOST CASES" and "PROBABLY".

But what about the time when it isn't?

Those key words are not a very wise approach to building a defensive posture and mindest upon. I personally prefer an AR, AK, CAR, or whatever high capacity self-loading rifle because it is as much "plenty" as I can reasonably carry, gives me a large magazine capacity, allows me to engage targets out to 600+ meters (caliber and environment dependent), and quickly re-load if and when the time comes to do so. We don't always get to choose the time and place for our engagements. As Brad Pitt said so eloquently in "Inglorious Basterds"......."Fighin' in a basement offers a lot of difficulties, number one bein' you're fightin in a basement!". Not the place I would choose a levergun.

Concur that a levergun can handle most LE/HD scenarios well, and negate a some of the advantages an auto-loader may have at short and medium ranges. But good shooters, who can keep their shit together will generally win more often than shitty shooters who cannot keep from pissing down their leg when the fight starts. They also tend to do better than truly great shooters who are also pissing down their leg. The man, the mindset, the training, and the equipment. That order makes the difference.........putting the equipment first in that recipe is something we like do, but rarely is it the deciding factor.

Chuck Haggard
07-03-2011, 10:09 AM
The unfortunate truth is that there just isn't anything on the market these days that is appreciably better for the intended task than the AR. Lots of companies have poured money into coming up with a better mousetrap but so far nobody has figured one out for most tasks. Some options like the SCAR have some potential advantages in terms of the useful service life of some critical parts and armorer support, but for the average individual those advantages are largely theoretical. If you're fielding large numbers of weapons then you'd see some of those advantages...but at what cost? When a new weapon is fielded there's the expense of the weapon, the expense of the accessories, training, replacement parts, logistical headaches...do the benefits outweigh all those other concerns for an agency issuing the weapon?

Most of the "new" guns like the ACR or the SCAR start out costing more than it would cost for a Colt 6920 with an Aimpoint, sling, and a flashlight mounted on the rifle...all the stuff you really need on it. The Colt will perform any task you can reasonably ask the other two weapons to do, parts are readily available from any number of sources and it's almost infinitely customizable thanks to a massive aftermarket. It's really hard to objectively justify the expense of the other guns for the overwhelming majority of users.

The AR family isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

I strongly concur. I was going to post a similar comment, but this one was so well worded.

Chuck Haggard
07-03-2011, 10:24 AM
I was a real fan of the M1 carbine for many years. That my dad used one in both Korea and Vietnam and came back liking the little gun certainly helped my opinion. I still like these guns quite a bit but reality is that almost anything I can do with a carbine I can do better with an M4 type.


.357mag lever guns;

If you can't have an EBR then there is quite a bit to recommend these as a choice. I have crono'd 125gr ammo from my friend's 16" Marlin at better than 2100fps. 125gr at 2100+ fps is clearly into AK ballistic territory (yes, I know there are differences in bullet construction, BC, downrange effect, etc., but at close range anyone hit with either won't know the difference).

At these speeds the 125gr JHPs will likely act like a varmint bullet, which may be just fine depending on the target. The advantage the .357 with have over rounds like the .223 or .30carbine is the ability to use the heavier bullets like the various 180gr loads, in case the target is large and mean, as in larger than people.

Wheeler
07-03-2011, 05:58 PM
Interesting observations, and while I can't speak for the skill, or lackthereof of a given person with a given arm, I guess I would argue that since the majority of AR based systems are active in the military.........those two points about magazine capacity and shot to shot splits are pretty important aspects given the mission of the rifle.

I personally like and appreciate my .357 levergun (also my GF's #1 favorite rifle in my inventory). It does what it was designed to do, and does it pretty well. But if we are talking strictly about non-military AR's............ what it doesn't do that an AR or AK or CAR or other "evil assault rifle" can is allow me to engage threats across a wide range of scenarios. Mostly scenarios that I cannot predict, for if I KNEW I was going to task with 40 banditos, I would most certainly choose a different course of action than toe to toe with muskets. Probably entice them into congretating at a specific location, then bombarding it with artillery. But since I do not KNOW with any degree of certainty what my active shooter, home invasion, SWAT Call-Out, LE Patrol "might" entail, choosing a primary rifle system that enables a degree of adaptibility to the environment makes more sense than showing up to the fight with a magnum pistol caliber levergun and hoping it was all the gun needed to solve the issues at hand. In most cases, the levergun would "probably" be plenty and then some. Key words are "MOST CASES" and "PROBABLY".

But what about the time when it isn't?

Those key words are not a very wise approach to building a defensive posture and mindest upon. I personally prefer an AR, AK, CAR, or whatever high capacity self-loading rifle because it is as much "plenty" as I can reasonably carry, gives me a large magazine capacity, allows me to engage targets out to 600+ meters (caliber and environment dependent), and quickly re-load if and when the time comes to do so. We don't always get to choose the time and place for our engagements. As Brad Pitt said so eloquently in "Inglorious Basterds"......."Fighin' in a basement offers a lot of difficulties, number one bein' you're fightin in a basement!". Not the place I would choose a levergun.

Concur that a levergun can handle most LE/HD scenarios well, and negate a some of the advantages an auto-loader may have at short and medium ranges. But good shooters, who can keep their shit together will generally win more often than shitty shooters who cannot keep from pissing down their leg when the fight starts. They also tend to do better than truly great shooters who are also pissing down their leg. The man, the mindset, the training, and the equipment. That order makes the difference.........putting the equipment first in that recipe is something we like do, but rarely is it the deciding factor.

I'm not necessarily arguing that the M4 (or something similar) is not a great platform, I have a Bushmaster M4gery that I like to shoot and feel very comfortable with. Not everyone wants an EBR in any shape or form. There are still quite a few shooters, even enthusiastic IDPA or USAPSA shooters that are not comfortable with the price, or live some place it's difficult to own one, or just downright don't see the need for some high capacity, media ostracisized, military, people killing gun. Is an AR a better all-around platform? Absolutely. Once you get outside a relatively small group of gun owners/shooters not many people want or see a need for such a creature in their gun cabinet or safe.

To be honest, I have quite a bit of money (to me) invested in my AR, Surefire Quad-Rail, Collapsible stock, vertical grip, flashlight, flashlight mount, sling attachment, sling, etc. You get the point. I have $250 invested in my Model 94 .357 Mag. I have even less invested in my M6 Scout which is my preferred "Truck Gun". If I get in a confrontation that requires the use of a rifle, I really don't want to have my AR confiscated. It might be a backwards thinking process, but money talks. I also have this preception that the responding police officer(s) might not be quite as intimidated or feel quite as threatened by the latter two.


I was a real fan of the M1 carbine for many years. That my dad used one in both Korea and Vietnam and came back liking the little gun certainly helped my opinion. I still like these guns quite a bit but reality is that almost anything I can do with a carbine I can do better with an M4 type.


.357mag lever guns;

If you can't have an EBR then there is quite a bit to recommend these as a choice. I have crono'd 125gr ammo from my friend's 16" Marlin at better than 2100fps. 125gr at 2100+ fps is clearly into AK ballistic territory (yes, I know there are differences in bullet construction, BC, downrange effect, etc., but at close range anyone hit with either won't know the difference).

At these speeds the 125gr JHPs will likely act like a varmint bullet, which may be just fine depending on the target. The advantage the .357 with have over rounds like the .223 or .30carbine is the ability to use the heavier bullets like the various 180gr loads, in case the target is large and mean, as in larger than people.

I had a .30 carbine for years. When I started out shooting three gun I got a few snickers from some of the AR snobs until the scores came out. It's a great platform with very light recoil. When I started to think of it in terms of a defensive long gun, I took a good hard look at the availabe ammo, and found it lacking.

I have a .357 Mag. 125 gr. load that shows 1800 fps out of a 6" barrel. I can't wait to get it on a chrono and see how it does out of the carbine.

Failure2Stop
07-03-2011, 07:46 PM
Just a quick note to back-up Sean M's observations and experiences with the SCARs.

I really can't justify going any way other than the AR platform unless someone has some undying urge to get a piston gun or an alternate caliber, in which case, get one built from the ground up as such.

Ed L
07-04-2011, 08:00 AM
I had a .30 carbine for years. When I started out shooting three gun I got a few snickers from some of the AR snobs until the scores came out. It's a great platform with very light recoil. When I started to think of it in terms of a defensive long gun, I took a good hard look at the availabe ammo, and found it lacking.

I somehow wound up with 2 M1 Carbines. They are light, compact, with a relatively slim profile, and lots of fun to shoot. They make a fantastic longarm to introduce new shooters and for those of lighter build or with physical infirmaties.

I let some college student from Taiwan shoot mine after brief instruction at how to operate it and use the sights and he managed to keep an entire 15 round magazine in a tennisball sized group at 21 feet shooting from offhand. He was at the range having never fired any firearm before and was previously trying to shoot a handgun with much less accuracy. The size and weight made it a good match for him. I'm not going to say the guy was small, but next to him I looked like MMA fighter Randy Couture.

I have not found any hollowpoint or softpoints on the market that either is reasonably reliable with. In using a variety of magazines--new in wrapper, used, Korean, etc. Depending on the ammo, you might get 1 malfunction in 5-10 rounds or 1 malfunction in 50-75 rounds rounds. The Speer Softpoints seemed to be the most reliable and the malfunctions I experienced with this round may have simply been due to issues with the particular magazines. However, given the price of .30 carbine defensive ammo and the fact that I have better defensive longarm options it really doesn't make economic sense to try to test further. If I hads to press it into defensive use I would probably go with FMJ for reliability.

If I had to set up my 81 year old aunt with a home defense gun it would be an M1 carbine loaded with fmj for reliability.

Ed L
07-04-2011, 08:20 AM
here is a article that I'm in shooting my XCR at a Jason Falla ( Red Back One) class this last Dec. http://bit.ly/k16fz8

Some instructors have less than good things to say about the Robinson XCR. But I've been in two Classes with Prdator, and I didn't notice him having any issues with his.

I believe this is the photo he is referring to from my article.

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/XCR.jpg

Ed L
07-04-2011, 08:33 AM
I own non-AR guns and have attended shooting classes with them. Unless you already have a strong background with them, you may be out of luck taking a class as the instructor may not be familiar with them and some of the manipulations and mechanics he is teaching may not apply to them.

I've done about 3 carbine classes with a Steyr AUG and one with an FN FS2000. I had to figure out everything about the FS2000 because at the time there was no available info on a manual of arms in the US. From what I have seen, there still isn't, other than what I've put together.

Odin Bravo One
07-04-2011, 05:04 PM
I too am a big fan of the .30 Carbine. I have an M1 set up for HD in the unlikely event I need to use it. But it still lacks the versatility that my AR's provide. I ran it at a one week training course, and it held it's own against the AR's, right up until we got into shooting beyond 100m. Once we moved out past 100m, the AR's shot circles around the M1. Past 200m, the AR's absolutley dominated and destroyed the .30 Carbine in terms of accuracy and the ability to put effective rounds on target in a timely manner.

As always the mission drives the gear. And training with what you have is usually far more productive than arguing what is better.....especially if you don't have the supposedly better item. If you have the levergun, or the .30 Carbine, or the AR, or AK.......train with it, become proficient with it, and learn to keep your wits about you when the chips are down. Then the one that is in your hand at the moment of truth is very likely to be the best one, for you.

Jay Cunningham
07-04-2011, 05:14 PM
I think the .30 carbine a has a lot of life left in it for HD applications. Modern ammo and low sight-over-bore make it a viable option IMO. Add an UltiMak rail with a T-1 Micro and a WML and you've got a very handy, lightweight carbine.

Odin Bravo One
07-04-2011, 06:24 PM
I agree Jay. Just having a hard time hacking into my fairly decent original stock to attach a rail for WML, though I may end up using an offset mount on the Ultimak rail to bring the light down to a usable plane. My only real issue with the M1 or any .30 Carbine weapon is ammo cost and availability. For a 100 yards and closer gun, it is certainly acceptable to handle a good number of shooting situations. Especially in a HD role.

Jay Cunningham
07-04-2011, 06:46 PM
I agree Jay. Just having a hard time hacking into my fairly decent original stock to attach a rail for WML, though I may end up using an offset mount on the Ultimak rail to bring the light down to a usable plane. My only real issue with the M1 or any .30 Carbine weapon is ammo cost and availability. For a 100 yards and closer gun, it is certainly acceptable to handle a good number of shooting situations. Especially in a HD role.

Sean, take a look at the Danger Close and VLTOR Offset Scout mounts. My solution that I'm using for slings on the similar AK UltiMAK rails is a VTAC or MagPul sling mount at the very rear of the rail, with the Micro just in front of it.

TCinVA
07-04-2011, 07:09 PM
Once you get outside a relatively small group of gun owners/shooters not many people want or see a need for such a creature in their gun cabinet or safe.


That's true.

...but most people also don't see a "need" to carry a gun, either. When it comes to the subject of violent interpersonal interaction with bad men most people are, frankly, idiots. AR's can be quite expensive...but ensuring that the bad guy and any friends he has along for the festivities will cease their hostile actions in short enough order to prevent death or serious injury to you or your loved ones has a value that's difficult to quantify in dollar terms alone.

As for the local constabulary...the sort who is going to be in a huff because you used a rifle that's pretty much the same thing they have to kill bad people when the time comes for that is going to be in a huff no matter what sort of weapon you are using.

Wheeler
07-04-2011, 11:16 PM
That's true.

...but most people also don't see a "need" to carry a gun, either. When it comes to the subject of violent interpersonal interaction with bad men most people are, frankly, idiots. I will concur wholeheartedly with that, including the vast majority of gun owners.AR's can be quite expensive...but ensuring that the bad guy and any friends he has along for the festivities will cease their hostile actions in short enough order to prevent death or serious injury to you or your loved ones has a value that's difficult to quantify in dollar terms alone.That's a slippery slope. I see the same logic used by people that buy multi-thousand dollar 1911's that have barely a clue how to properly load one, much less use one under stress.

As for the local constabulary...the sort who is going to be in a huff because you used a rifle that's pretty much the same thing they have to kill bad people when the time comes for that is going to be in a huff no matter what sort of weapon you are using.

Part of the reason I became so involved in the carry of, shooting, and learning to properly manipulate a revolver was because if I was seen with one, ie. my concealment failed, it does not present as intimidating an appearance as a Glock or something similar in appearance. People tend to think of revolvers as something their grand-daddy kept in the sock drawer, not as a serious defensive weapon. Especially with the glut of hi-action TV shows and movies depicting the special agent of whichever agency running around with a Glock, Sig, H&K, etc. I've gotten a lot more stares carrying and AR into a range than a lever-action. That's a perception of mine, with no empirical data to back it up. Disclaimer: I no longer carry long guns into a range uncased.

I'm probably making my point badly. I don't disagree with the versatility of an AR platform or the effectiveness of the 5.56 or .223 round. Many of the other more specialized cartridges potentially perform better, although we're getting into cost/availability issues again. There are a huge amount of people out there with hunting style guns, in rifle calibers (I used the .357 Mag earlier to illustrate a point based on match conditions on a range that disallowed rifle calibers on their pistol bays), that would be extremely effective in an HD scenario, or even an engagement out to medium ranges of 300 yards. I would never take a shot at a deer with a 30/30 at 300 yards but at a person if the need was there? Most likely so. On a slight tangent, can anyone give me statistics showing HD/SD engagements of over 30 yards in the past 50 years? I would be willing to bet there aren't many, if any at all. If there were more training courses setup around what people owned, vs. what was easier to use, I firmly believe that in the long run we would see more and more gun owners come around to the idea that EBR's aren't quite so Evil after all.

Approaching from a different angle and looking at it from a competition point of view. Would I use my 30/30 in a 3-gun match? No. Not unless the round count was low enough that I wasn't constantly reloading. Would I take on a challenge against another shooter with an AR shooting at five 6" plates at 100 yards? I would. Could I beat someone that was a good AR driver? Not likely. Could I beat most of the run of the mill? Yup. Point being that the weapon is an extension of the operator, not the other way around. If I had good cover/concealment, do you think the shot-to-shot and round capacity advantages of an AR offer all that much advantage?

I don't mean to come off as arguementative, I'm trying to (poorly) clarify my point. I hope. Maybe. :)

Odin Bravo One
07-05-2011, 11:14 AM
Could you define what you mean by "EBR"?

Is that "Evil Black Rifle"?

Wheeler
07-05-2011, 01:47 PM
Could you define what you mean by "EBR"?

Is that "Evil Black Rifle"?

Yessir.

jslaker
07-05-2011, 02:12 PM
I'm glad to see the .30 carbine getting so much love in this thread. I've mentioned elsewhere here that I really believe a modernized .30 carbine would be a fantastic home defense platform for the vast majority of people.


Lever Actions used to be the go-to assault rifle for many police departments. Other than magazine capacity and shot to shot splits, and I question those as advantages given the typical mission of the gun, what advantages do you have with an AR, AK, etc. type platform?

Part of the reason subguns like the MP5 have fallen out of favor with law enforcement -- while the AR platform has risen in popularity -- is because 5.56 is less prone to penetrating multiple walls than pistol calibers since it tends to fragment on impacting a hard surface.

Kyle Reese
07-05-2011, 02:15 PM
Here's an example of a modern .30 cal carbine, the IWI MAGAL (http://www.remtek.com/arms/imi/magal/index.htm).

jslaker
07-05-2011, 02:31 PM
Here's an example of a modern .30 cal carbine, the IWI MAGAL (http://www.remtek.com/arms/imi/magal/index.htm).

My understanding is that the Israelis had major reliability issues with the Magal and that it's been mostly pulled from service.

Taurus also builds a modernized .30 carbine:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IFa2FO_9x4

ETA:


In 1994, Israel introduced the Magal, a compact weapon based on the Galil MAR using the .30 Carbine cartridge. After complaints of overheating and other malfunctions, the Magal was withdrawn from service in 2001. The M1 Carbine is still issued to the Israel Police and Civil Guard.

Failure2Stop
07-06-2011, 05:52 AM
I also like the M1 Carbine, after playing with an M2 we had at a job.
The biggest reason I don't own one is their cost. I already have several thousand dollars in each AR I own, and it isn't like M1s are $200 bucks. From what little I know about M1s, the less desirable ones cost about as much as a less desirable AK, and they go up to upper eschelon ARs' cost. Add to that the cost of needed upgrades (light, rail, optic, mags, parts) and necessity to learn another manual of arms and offset, and it is just not worth adding to the safe for me.
Still, I like them, so if I was given one or got a smoking deal on one I would put it to use.

LittleLebowski
07-06-2011, 09:24 AM
Here's an example of a modern .30 cal carbine, the IWI MAGAL (http://www.remtek.com/arms/imi/magal/index.htm).

Had no idea Tapco has a factory in Israel......

Odin Bravo One
07-06-2011, 09:40 AM
I got my M1 through the CMP, for right around $400 if I remember right. Nice and broken in, and some very nice battle scars and rust. I'm sure if that carbine could talk it would probably say it received all of the abuse in training in S. Korea, but it's my story, and I am convinced it was at Omaha Beach.

I can't say that every CMP gun will turn out like mine, but a short time in the blaster, a coat of spray and bake, quick sand and oil of the stock, and it runs like the proverbial raped ape, with any type of ammunition. I mounted a T-1 on an Ultimak rail, and it is good for solid hits out to 100. Beyond that, well........I'll say it's not my first choice, but if it is what is in my hands in the house, it'll do until I can get something more convincing.

Failure2Stop
07-06-2011, 02:34 PM
I got my M1 through the CMP, for right around $400 if I remember right. Nice and broken in, and some very nice battle scars and rust. I'm sure if that carbine could talk it would probably say it received all of the abuse in training in S. Korea, but it's my story, and I am convinced it was at Omaha Beach.


Yeah, that's what I want in an M1, at a price I would pay.
I was looking at the CMP offerings in April and all the M1 Carbines were gone.
Sean, I used to think I liked you, but now I'm just too consumed with envious jealousy to be happy for you.

Odin Bravo One
07-06-2011, 04:14 PM
F2S,

sorry they were all gone from CMP. Takes about 5 years and a blood sample to get anything from them, guess I figured they would be there forever.............

MG-42
07-07-2011, 10:06 PM
I like and use the Gerat 05 in 7.92x33. It is a fun gun that is light and handy.

Kyle Reese
07-08-2011, 01:39 AM
I like and use the Gerat 05 in 7.92x33. It is a fun gun that is light and handy.

Got a pic of it?

Tamara
07-08-2011, 12:49 PM
I like and use the Gerat 05 in 7.92x33. It is a fun gun that is light and handy.
You mean one of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkssturmgewehr_1-5)?

Uh, okay.

Kyle Reese
07-08-2011, 02:47 PM
I like and use the Gerat 05 in 7.92x33. It is a fun gun that is light and handy.

And apparently worth a mint. Is it one of these? (http://www.hza-kulmbach.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=61&lang=de)

Tamara
07-08-2011, 03:34 PM
5.5kg is obviously a new definition of "light and handy".

I have been present for more than one shooter's first handling of an StG.44. For those who have only experienced them in 1:35 scale or in Call of Duty and were expecting something of AK size and weight, the experience is almost uniformly eye-opening, and in a negative fashion. :p

(And you can count me among that number. At my first gun store gig I tracked down a couple of freezer bags of ammo for a guy who had one on a Form 4. He offered to let me shoot it in return. After handling it, I declined, afraid that his clunky, awkward priceless relic would break while I was shooting it. "Naw. Thanks, though. You go 'head; I'll just watch..." :o )

Kyle Reese
07-08-2011, 03:41 PM
5.5kg is obviously a new definition of "light and handy".

I have been present for more than one shooter's first handling of an StG.44. For those who have only experienced them in 1:35 scale or in Call of Duty and were expecting something of AK size and weight, the experience is almost uniformly eye-opening, and in a negative fashion. :p

(And you can count me among that number. At my first gun store gig I tracked down a couple of freezer bags of ammo for a guy who had one on a Form 4. He offered to let me shoot it in return. After handling it, I declined, afraid that his clunky, awkward priceless relic would break while I was shooting it. "Naw. Thanks, though. You go 'head; I'll just watch..." :o )

Well, prior to the good people at Prvi Partisan manufacturing new production 7,92x33 K, all you had was 1944-1945 German surplus, as well as 1960's vintage DDR stuff.

Tamara
07-08-2011, 04:37 PM
Well, prior to the good people at Prvi Partisan manufacturing new production 7,92x33 K, all you had was 1944-1945 German surplus, as well as 1960's vintage DDR stuff.

Yup. This was surplus of some sort (I don't remember what kind; it was 1994, scarfed off a table at the Eastman's gun show in Gainesville, GA.)

I know that when I was at the Bulletfest '11/LuckyGunner Blogger Shoot this year, which was lousy with WWII reenactors, the sight of a trash can half-full of discarded Prvi Partizan 7.92x33 boxes was enough to cause me to snap a picture.

Then again, I remember that in '93 or '94, a single round of 5.45x39 was cool enough that I set it on the shelf at the shop next to a 4 Bore round and an empty 0 Gauge paper punt gun shell... (Now I feel old... :D )

MG-42
07-09-2011, 07:17 PM
Here's my Gerat 05:
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/429/gerat05a.jpg

And here's me shooting it:
http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/8746/gerat05.jpg

JM Campbell
07-09-2011, 10:22 PM
Good looking rifle sir. That sure is a sexy .50 in the background too.

Tamara
07-10-2011, 07:37 AM
And here's me shooting it:

Nice collector's piece! :cool: Don't believe I've ever seen one of those IRL before.

Odd choice for a working gun though. Magazines aren't exactly plentiful and if it takes a dump at a three day carbine class in Ass Bend, WY, it's not like the gun store in town is going to have a spare firing pin. (Plus, I'm not sure I'd want to use a five-figure "Nazi machine gun" on a home intruder, if you know what I mean...)

But, hey, it's still mostly a free country. :)

MG-42
07-10-2011, 08:29 AM
The next time you come to the great south west for a shooting class at gun site give me a holler. Once you hold and shoot this rifle you will understand why I like it so much. The balance and ergonomics are perfect.

Wheeler
07-10-2011, 09:47 PM
Nice collector's piece! :cool: Don't believe I've ever seen one of those IRL before.

Odd choice for a working gun though. Magazines aren't exactly plentiful and if it takes a dump at a three day carbine class in Ass Bend, WY, it's not like the gun store in town is going to have a spare firing pin. (Plus, I'm not sure I'd want to use a five-figure "Nazi machine gun" on a home intruder, if you know what I mean...)

But, hey, it's still mostly a free country. :)

That's the beauty of shooting and training with the predominant systems of the time. On the other hand, MG42 has a firearm that he obviously feels comfortable with. It might suck to have some deputy toss it into the evidence locker, but chances are he'll have the opportunity to regret his choice.

Chuck Haggard
07-16-2011, 11:01 AM
The next time you come to the great south west for a shooting class at gun site give me a holler. Once you hold and shoot this rifle you will understand why I like it so much. The balance and ergonomics are perfect.

I have not even heard of that gun before. Learn something new every day.

DocGKR
07-16-2011, 12:39 PM
That Gerat looks quite similar to an M1 carbine w/30 round magazine...

I have some comments on M1 carbines here: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19956. M1 carbines & 870's are what I run at home due to California's illogical, asinine bureaucratic restrictions on effective firearms ownership. Otherwise, I prefer a 16" AR15 as a more versatile and superior option, as noted here: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=44869.

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7445&filename=M1%20Carbine.jpg

The best M1 carbine defensive ammo is the Remington 110 gr JSP, Speer Gold Dot 110 gr JSP, and the Corbon 110 gr DPX load; the Winchester 110 gr gr JSP is OK and the Federal 110 gr JSP is useless--it acts just like ball.

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/M1CarbineWP.jpg

JodyH
07-16-2011, 05:23 PM
I run a Daewoo K2 on a regular basis.
With the folding stock it makes a great truck gun.

shep854
08-08-2011, 03:52 PM
For me, they are an SU-16C and a carefully-used Austrian return M1 carbine.
For moderate use, the SU fills my bill (if the Battle of Hue needs refighting, I'll head the other way, or re-arm). The carbine is just what it's supposed to be. SJ rounds sometimes hang on the little edge on the chamber bur a tap om the op rod sends it on in. A touch with a file to break the edge should solve the issue.

jwperry
08-19-2011, 07:49 PM
I started centerfire rifle shooting/ownership with an SKS, I couldn't afford anything else at the time.
I still bring it out, time to time. It is a good brush gun for hog hunting and deer <100yards.
It is nothing I'd consider for anything other than brush hunting, but my girlfriend likes the wood grain stock and it is the only gun I can get her to shoot.

In a pinch, I suppose it could be used similar to how some of you guys are using an M1, but the ammunition selection isn't nearly as good as compared to the M1(at least from what I've looked for in the hunting section).

Al T.
08-19-2011, 08:13 PM
ammunition selection isn't nearly as good

There is very good ammo out there for the 7.62x39. I've used the Winchester 124 grain JSP with good results on deer. One fairly inexpensive but very worth while addition is Tech-Sights. I have sets on both of mine and find them to shrink my groups roughly 50%.

http://www.tech-sights.com/

jwperry
08-19-2011, 08:25 PM
There is very good ammo out there for the 7.62x39. I've used the Winchester 124 grain JSP with good results on deer. One fairly inexpensive but very worth while addition is Tech-Sights. I have sets on both of mine and find them to shrink my groups roughly 50%.

http://www.tech-sights.com/

I hadn't seen Winchester in the x39 except for the FMJ variety that Wal Mart sells. Wolf 154gr SP has been my round of choice the past couple years.
I'm going to look at those tech sights, thanks for the information.

Slavex
08-20-2011, 03:05 AM
I run an AR but a couple of my friends run Swiss Specials and a bunch of buds run Tavors (which you guys can't have down there :p). The Tavor is cool, but I prefer the ergos of the AR myself.

Kyle Reese
08-20-2011, 10:24 AM
Got this sitting in the safe....

121

Polish AKM/PMKM parts kit built on a Hungarian FEG AKM receiver, built in the early 2000's by Global Trades. Got it from a friend during an estate sale. It shoots as nice as it looks. :D

ADKilla
08-24-2011, 07:06 AM
I'll play.

In addition to the DD M4, I've got a SA SOCOM 16 with an Aimpoint Comp M2 and a SF X200 on the foregrip (not the gaudy SOCOM II version; I personally installed the Picatinny rail to the foregrip). Is it perfect? No. It's loud as can be, even when fired outside, and the manual of arms is less than ideal compared to the M4. Does it work? Absolutely. Would I get rid of it? Never.

Tim
08-24-2011, 11:35 PM
Got this sitting in the safe....

121

Polish AKM/PMKM parts kit built on a Hungarian FEG AKM receiver, built in the early 2000's by Global Trades. Got it from a friend during an estate sale. It shoots as nice as it looks. :D

Nice piece. :)

Kyle Reese
08-24-2011, 11:36 PM
Nice piece. :)

Thanks to you, bro!:D

Dagga Boy
08-26-2011, 06:13 PM
I am a huge fan of the Steyr AUG. Piston, quick change barrel, easy to run from vehicles and indoors....near perfect. The only issue is expense and parts, so I am sticking with the AR based guns as my primary rifles. I have started messing around with modern AK's, but it is hard to beat a properly set up AR based gun.

Maple Syrup Actual
08-27-2011, 01:00 AM
I use a VZ-58 pattern rifle more than anything else. It's light, relatively accurate for x39, and runs well. There were a few at a Hackathorn rifle class this spring, including mine.

I have a T1 on mine and a CTR stock on an inline adapter. It works well. I particularly like the $200/crate ammo aspect of it, though. If the ammo were the same price as 5.56, I'd probably mainly run an AR.

BWT
08-27-2011, 08:58 PM
I bought a BCM Mid Length AR... and then bought an Arsenal SGL 21-71.

I like the AK, I've run it at matches, the gun is controllable, honestly, it is.

Prepare to be underwhelmed.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE1wtp_JKt8

The first 6 shots are all head shots (that was the game, flip the card, find out if you're shooting body or head for the first six, so, I moved to the next table, and could shoot the bodies twice), the next four can be two to the body or one to the head.

I can run the AR faster (two videos below), magazine changes are easier and I can manipulate it much easier with both hands, and can configure it to do so. (I'm left eye dominant, but given course lay outs, I routinely need to switch to right handed with long arms mid course... I shoot long arms left handed and handguns right handed, so it's really not that bad, I just need to make sure to concentrate.)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCpu3TZdnFQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDbBruI3SM&feature=related

I like both weapons, the AR's controls make it much a dream comparatively to operate. But both are easy to shoot. I think the AK's rear sight sucks and could be improved by purchasing a peep sight (such as the krebs custom).

I've shot a SCAR... it was a 10.5'', but definitely has it's own feel when shooting... it does have a long recoil impulse, and I found it my hands, the gun seemed to kind of rock up and down (for me, but I'm also used to shooting AK's and AR's)... I think with the VLTOR Tube and an AR stock being a little higher on the gun, maybe it would make things different.

The recoil characteristics were a much smooth operation, but I feel I'm faster with AR's/AK's, I also only shot I think 20-30 rounds, so... That's not really anything definitive.

I think that also might be different because it was an SBR, it's also much lighter weight than an AR, it also has a very large carrier, so that might also exacerbate it, it also has a much longer/slower motion (I don't think it's a slower cyclic rate, it's just hard to describe for me) I'd really strongly recommend shooting one before buying one... It's a much different recoil characteristic than an AR, I'd also recommend handling one, being one who really has to use an ambi-safety, I didn't like the selector a whole lot, but I could get used to it.

I *do* like the reciprocating handle, but I also don't shoot for a living, but for manhandling malfunctions, I like that carry over from the AK.

I'd still recommend a DI 16'' Midlength AR for just about anyone as a general purpose rifle, and yes I SAID IT, GENERAL PURPOSE. :D

ETA: I'll also say this... for the AK being what it was in 1947... that thing was a darn space gun compared to the M1 Garand, and yes I completely think they ripped off the German STG-44 in concept (and some aspects), and I know they just flat out stole the M1 Garand's trigger design.

I mean for Pete's sake the Soviet Union created an exact copy of one of our long range bombers (I can't remember the model off the top of my head) when they had one in their hands, to deliver nuclear weapons.

DocGKR
08-27-2011, 09:44 PM
The B29.

Wheeler
08-27-2011, 09:46 PM
ETA: I'll also say this... for the AK being what it was in 1947... that thing was a darn space gun compared to the M1 Garand, and yes I completely think they ripped off the German STG-44 in concept (and some aspects), and I know they just flat out stole the M1 Garand's trigger design.

I mean for Pete's sake the Soviet Union created an exact copy of one of our long range bombers (I can't remember the model off the top of my head) when they had one in their hands, to deliver nuclear weapons.

That would be the Tupolev TU-4 a reverse engineered copy of a B-29 with Soviet designed engines.

Kyle Reese
09-01-2011, 11:49 PM
I use a VZ-58 pattern rifle more than anything else. It's light, relatively accurate for x39, and runs well. There were a few at a Hackathorn rifle class this spring, including mine.

I have a T1 on mine and a CTR stock on an inline adapter. It works well. I particularly like the $200/crate ammo aspect of it, though. If the ammo were the same price as 5.56, I'd probably mainly run an AR.

Nice. I've got a Czechpoint VZ-58 and like it alot. TCinVA and myself both shot VZ-58's in the Larry Vickers AK class last spring in NC. Mine went down for the count during the first walkback drill, and I finished the class with an SGL-21.

The rifle went back to Czechpoint and it was determined that a non OEM after market trigger was the culprit, and it was repaired free of charge. An FFL (whom I no longer use) admitted he swapped the trigger on the rifle to make it "match grade". :rolleyes: