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jmjames
08-02-2013, 04:34 PM
It looks like I am moving to NJ by the end of the month. Unfortunately, all of my long arms are considered "banned assault weapons" under NJ law, with the exception of my Marlin 336 and a 28" 12 gauge. So, I am looking to get a shotgun for HD purposes. It needs to have a standard field stock. I'm a big fan of red dots and I'm a big fan of semi-auto shotguns (on the principle that my wife may be the one using it and a pump shotgun will likely be a single-shot firearm in her hands under stress). If I was looking at pump guns, I would just get an 870P and it would be done and over.

What are my choices here? Benelli M2/M4? Mossburg 900? Beretta Tx4 Storm? I hear nothing but bad things about the Remington choices.

Pros/cons to any of these?

J.Ja

Dan_S
08-02-2013, 04:41 PM
It looks like I am moving to NJ by the end of the month. Unfortunately, all of my long arms are considered "banned assault weapons" under NJ law, with the exception of my Marlin 336 and a 28" 12 gauge. So, I am looking to get a shotgun for HD purposes. It needs to have a standard field stock. I'm a big fan of red dots and I'm a big fan of semi-auto shotguns (on the principle that my wife may be the one using it and a pump shotgun will likely be a single-shot firearm in her hands under stress). If I was looking at pump guns, I would just get an 870P and it would be done and over.

What are my choices here? Benelli M2/M4? Mossburg 900? Beretta Tx4 Storm? I hear nothing but bad things about the Remington choices.

Pros/cons to any of these?

J.Ja

Take this advice for what it is worth (nothing, basically) but...

If I were to move to NJ, I would probably just get a Sully Stock for my AR, and a ban-legal barrel (no threads or other evil items) and run 15 round mags. That's infinitely better than a shotgun, in my humble opinion.

Something to consider, anyway, and something that I strongly encouraged a friend of mine in NJ to do (which, I might mention because of that episode, I'm semi-familiar with NJ state laws...)

Not sure if your wife is familiar with ARs at all, but if she is, that would make a great deal of sense in my mind. If she isn't familiar with ARs, it also occurs to me that the recoil impulse of the AR would be much friendlier to her, particularly if under stress.

Chuck Haggard
08-02-2013, 05:05 PM
We used Mossbergs at work so that's what I have the most experience with as far as pump guns, although I started on 870s.

That said, my wife bought me an 11-87 in 12 gauge four years ago for bird hunting. I have abused the crap out of that gun with poor weather conditions hunting duck, goose, pheasent and turkey (duck hunting is almost never in nice weather), riding under truck seats, shooting several hundred rounds of various birdshot including 3" mags (and a few OO buck and slugs, because ya just never know....) and I have yet to clean it. I have also yet to have a stoppage.

Just my sample of one.

JAD
08-02-2013, 05:08 PM
That's infinitely better than a shotgun, in my humble opinion.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/08/03/ry2epu3e.jpg

Dan_S
08-02-2013, 05:13 PM
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/08/03/ry2epu3e.jpg


Yes, I'm quite serious.

With a carbine, and the right ammunition, you're reducing your chances of overpenetrating in buildings, for one thing.

Also, a carbine with 15 rounds in a detachable mag, versus 7 or 8 rounds in a tube.

All that, not to mention that the recoil of a carbine is much more manageable than a shotgun, as well penetration of soft armor....

So, yeah... If you want to call me out for an untrue statement, by all means, please correct me. Of course, if you can only post childish pictures, then...... :rolleyes:

GJM
08-02-2013, 05:32 PM
The Beretta Storm is basically un-obtanium, but if you want a semi-auto, I would take a hard look at the new Beretta 1301. Seems like a follow up to the Storm, and while designed for 3 Gun, looks sleepy enough would probably fit right in there in NJ. I believe it comes with a FO front sight but is drilled for an optic rail. Cost a lot less than the Storm, too.

Cookie Monster
08-02-2013, 07:05 PM
I've seen FN shotguns run well, they make a semi.

I've run double barrels as HD and Truck guns but they definitely have their limitations.

Right now the lever actions rifles are loaded and ready to go. My wife hates guns but somehow is OK with a lever action rifle and I love my wife more than my guns.

Cheers,
Cookie Monster

rsa-otc
08-02-2013, 07:53 PM
Properly setup AR's are legal in NJ. Have an FFL pin the stock, replace the flash hider with a compensator and pick up some 10 or 15 round magazines and you are most of the way there. Would be best not to have a bayonet lug as well. Drop TGS on this forum a line he has a sweet NJ legal AR and can give you more information than me since I haven't broke down and bought one yet.

As far as shotguns go I would stay away from 11-87s unless you plan on running nothing but hot loads through it. The only shotgun that wouldn't run in my last instructor cert class was an 11-87 with lighter bird loads. One of the class instructors was a Remington cert armourer and he said that was a common problem.

The Benelli's were nice guns and ran well but were complicated to run and saw several "experienced" students fumble with them while the rest were up and running the exercises. My impression at the end of the class was that you really need to practice alot to run them effectively, not something I would expect my wife to use unless she was a gun enthusiast to and would put in the time.

JAD
08-02-2013, 10:55 PM
:rolleyes:

Sorry to be flippant -- I didn't know Jersey ARs could have detachable mags. That does even things up a little. Pre-toddler, I ran an AR for home defense -- easier to hang stuff on and easier to run one handed were my main thoughts. I'd say its pretty close, though -- the capacity thing doesn't bother me much because of the relative ease of keeping a shotgun topped up -- and depending on the attitude of the judicial system in a specific municipality problem 2 is going to be a lot easier with a bird gun than with an 'assault weapon.'

jmjames
08-03-2013, 01:17 AM
Thanks for all the input folks.

I've already figured out the AR situation, and I may be getting an upper that NJ feels OK with soon enough. But I still *prefer* a shotgun to an AR *for my needs* in an HD scenario. There are pros and cons to each, and it's not worth dragging out the usual whipping horses over. Just not worth discussing. :D

I've heard too many bad stories about the 11-87, and Remington's customer service is atrocious (a few years ago I emailed them some questions and they took 3 months to respond, and said, "well, it was the holiday season, we were swamped").

I think a better way to phrase this question is:

* Thoughts on the Benelli M2 and M4? They seem pricey to me.
* Thoughts on the Beretta 1301? It looks like possibly the right gun for me though I'd prefer the 18" barrel.
* The Tx4 Storm looks *perfect*. What am I missing, besides their total unavailability?

I've had nothing but great experiences with my Weatherby SA-08, which is a Turkish clone of the A390. They also have a tactical version, which I could turn into a real sleeper with a furniture change (I've got $10 that says that the Beretta A390 furniture will fit). My concern there is the two different gas valves, my load of choice is low recoil Federal Flite Control, which I suspect would be on the edge of the two different gas rings. By the by, that load is pretty mild.

J.Ja

GJM
08-03-2013, 01:40 AM
I like the M2, but despite what Benelli says it is pain operated. M4 is heavy and finicky as to what ammo it functions with. TX Storm is my favorite shotgun -- lightweight, functions a wide range of loads, soft shooting and best stock I have used on a shotgun. 1301 is new but initial reports are good, and it is available unlike the Storm.

Suvorov
08-03-2013, 02:18 AM
Timely as I have a friend here in Kalifornia also looking for a shotgun. Guy is recoil sensitive and I'm partial to semi-autos so that is the direction I'm pushing him.

I have an 11-87P which has seemed to eat everything I've put through it, including cheap Walmart field loads, but they seem a little hard to come by. The Benelli's are sexy looking, and the guy is not price sensitive, but he would like to be able to convert it from tactical/sd mode to field/hunting mode. Are there any Benelli's that can do this?

I've also thought about the Beretta 1301 as it looks fairly easily convertible.

Any thoughts on the FN SLP guns?

TGS
08-03-2013, 05:17 AM
Please do drop me a PM with what you currently own. Not saying you're stupid, it's just that there's a lot of misinformation out there about what is "banned." With the exception of pinning my IMOD stock, my 14.5" AR15 is exactly the same as I'd have it in any other state.

You also don't have to give up your JHP ammo, if someone has told you they're illegal here.

Where are you moving to?

Tamara
08-03-2013, 05:57 AM
Take this advice for what it is worth (nothing, basically) but...

If I were to move to NJ, I would probably just get a Sully Stock for my AR, and a ban-legal barrel (no threads or other evil items) and run 15 round mags. That's infinitely better than a shotgun, in my humble opinion.

You've never had a humble opinion in your life. :p

BobM
08-03-2013, 07:58 AM
A friend is running a Remington Versamax 12 gauge hard in three gun matches. He has been very happy with it. It seems to getting a lot of favorable reviews

EricP
08-03-2013, 10:04 AM
Any thoughts on the FN SLP guns?

I don't own one, but I borrowed a MK1 for a season to shoot 3-gun.

The SLP comes in two versions; the SLP which has a 18" barrel and ghost ring sights and the SLP MK1 which has a 22" barrel and flip up rifle sights. Both have provisions for mounting an optic. Both come with a heavy and light pistons. The MK1, when new, wouldn't run light birdshot or reduced recoil loads with the light piston and took a few hundred hot loaded rounds to break in. There is supposedly a sporting clays piston out for a Winchester SX2 that will help with that issue. Like the Benelli, the lifter will take your thumb nail off if you're not careful. If it was my gun, I would have the lifter welded.

Once the gun was broken in, it ran bulk Federal birdshot and reduced recoil slugs like a champ.

I looked for a 18" SLP for a while, but never found one. The MK1 is much more prevalent.

Al T.
08-03-2013, 10:15 AM
Please do drop me a PM with what you currently own.

Excellent idea and certainly a gracious offer. :cool:

Tamara
08-03-2013, 10:29 AM
Once the gun was broken in, it ran bulk Federal birdshot and reduced recoil slugs like a champ.

I looked for a 18" SLP for a while, but never found one. The MK1 is much more prevalent.

I ran a borrowed SLP in last year's Midnight 3 Gun match and was pleasantly surprised to not have to clear any malfunctions despite the gamer birdshot loads.

TGS
08-03-2013, 12:03 PM
Excellent idea and certainly a gracious offer. :cool:

Yeah. We're going to give his homestead a proper NJ five-finger welcome. Lol.

jmjames
08-03-2013, 01:39 PM
Yeah. We're going to give his homestead a proper NJ five-finger welcome. Lol.

I grew up in NJ (Jackson... went to Rutgers New Brunswick) yet I'm somehow unfamiliar with said "five-finger welcome"... though I do recall the single-finger salute quite well...

I'll be moving to the Cherry Hill/Haddonfield/Moorestown area. Haven't found a place yet.

J.Ja

pangloss
08-03-2013, 06:13 PM
Are Beretta CX4 Storms legal in NJ? They have fixed stocks, nothing on the end of the barrel, and I don't think they meet the legal definition of a pistol grip. I have one, but I haven't shot it very much. I've experienced no problems with it thus far. It seems like a reasonable HD weapon, but I need to shoot it more before I move it from the safe to the bedside.

rsa-otc
08-03-2013, 07:27 PM
I grew up in NJ (Jackson... went to Rutgers New Brunswick) yet I'm somehow unfamiliar with said "five-finger welcome"... though I do recall the single-finger salute quite well...

I'll be moving to the Cherry Hill/Haddonfield/Moorestown area. Haven't found a place yet.

J.Ja

Depending on where you land in that area, I'll be only 20 to 30 mins north of you in Roebling between Burlington & Bordentown. Some others on this forum aren't to far away as well.

Not sure what TGS is referring to as well.

Why are you set on a shotgun? It's no easier to operate and even the Federal Low Recoil flite control buckshot is more likely to over penetrate than the 5.56.

If you are set on the shotgun for in the home I would go with Bird Shot. At room length distance it would be like being hit by a slug since the shot column has not dispersed a great deal and yet it would be less likely to go through multiple walls like slugs or OO buck. I have heard of first person accounts of bird shot killing bears at close distances.

If you like the idea of a FN SLP, Winchester has a version that is either a SLP with Winchester Labeling or a clone. I have several shooting buddies that have that gun and use them in 3 gun matches where they use everything from bird shot to slugs and they swear by them. They are the SX2 or SX3, I understand they cost less.

LSP972
08-03-2013, 08:27 PM
I use the Flite Control 9 pellet 00B load in my A390. I got a hell of a deal on a plain vanilla/plastic furniture A390 a few years back, that was won at a DU Convention in 1986 and put up in a closet. It was like finding a pristine Jap Zero in the jungle...;)

I made a "dudeshooter" out of it... whacked the barrel to 18.1", cut the stock to fit my T-Rex arms and fitted a Limb Saver pad. The result is one quick-handling HD shotgun; albeit, a capacity-limited one. But I figure if I cannot handle my problem with four rounds of 00B, then it just wasn't my day.

Unfortunately, you cannot "ghost load" a Beretta action; at least, not the 390/391 series. Haven't tried it with the 400.

Do you plan on storing chambered, or un-chambered? If the latter, remember that the shell latches have to be released via the button at the back of the loading port before you can 'rack" one from the magazine tube. Assuming that the Turk copy works the same, of course...

.

jmjames
08-03-2013, 10:47 PM
Depending on where you land in that area, I'll be only 20 to 30 mins north of you in Roebling between Burlington & Bordentown. Some others on this forum aren't to far away as well.

Not sure what TGS is referring to as well.

Why are you set on a shotgun? It's no easier to operate and even the Federal Low Recoil flite control buckshot is more likely to over penetrate than the 5.56.

If you are set on the shotgun for in the home I would go with Bird Shot. At room length distance it would be like being hit by a slug since the shot column has not dispersed a great deal and yet it would be less likely to go through multiple walls like slugs or OO buck. I have heard of first person accounts of bird shot killing bears at close distances.

If you like the idea of a FN SLP, Winchester has a version that is either a SLP with Winchester Labeling or a clone. I have several shooting buddies that have that gun and use them in 3 gun matches where they use everything from bird shot to slugs and they swear by them. They are the SX2 or SX3, I understand they cost less.

The FN SLP, from what I can tell, holds too many rounds, though that may just be FN's confusing Web site. In some places it says "6 + 1" (legal), in others it says "7" (illegal if that's 7 in the mag...), with the difference being if I'm on their "defense" site or their civilian site. I don't see any Winchesters SX3's that seem well suited to the role (magazine capacity, length being issues).

I feel like a 1301 would be a good bet, though I'd be sorely tempted to cut a few inches off. The Tx4 Storm is definitely not easily had, though I did find one for sale at $1,100 new.

In terms of "why shotgun?" Like I said, I have my reasons, they are good reasons, just like there are good reasons for "not shotgun". Some are subjective, some are objective... some are things that one person finds important, some are things that others don't find important. I feel that once the discussion gets to the point where you're comparing "quality AR with red dot" to "quality semi-auto shotgun with red dot", you just are not going to have a universally right answer. It's not like we're asking "KelTec vs. Glock". :D

In reference to another question, I prefer to store my HD long arms with a round chambered and safety on. I may be re-evaluating that after I move, depending on the layout of the rooms and the storage options.

J.Ja

BaiHu
08-03-2013, 11:53 PM
jm,

Another Jersey boy here that will 2nd and 3rd talking to TGS and welcome you back home. It's bad in NJ, but not NY bad :p

Maybe we should get a NJ reunion for all the current and ex-NJ members.

As for the 5 finger wave, I think it's a euphemism for "hi", since it's usually a 1 finger salute in NJ whenever, however and wherever you're driving.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

TGS
08-04-2013, 11:48 AM
The FN SLP, from what I can tell, holds too many rounds, though that may just be FN's confusing Web site. In some places it says "6 + 1" (legal), in others it says "7" (illegal if that's 7 in the mag...), with the difference being if I'm on their "defense" site or their civilian site. I don't see any Winchesters SX3's that seem well suited to the role (magazine capacity, length being issues).

J.Ja

The SLP mag tube can be modified to 6 rounds, AFAIK.

jmjames
08-04-2013, 12:10 PM
The SLP mag tube can be modified to 6 rounds, AFAIK.

Yeah, what it looks like is that they have a 6+1 and an 8+1 model (18" and 22"), and some are reporting that the 6+1 is actually 7+1 with 2 3/4" shells. Either way, it sounds like a problem that can be resolved by making a permanent plug in any number of fashions.

The SLP is about a pound heavier than the 1301, I noticed. I think the 1301 has an aluminum receiver.

J.Ja

TGS
08-05-2013, 06:45 AM
Are Beretta CX4 Storms legal in NJ? They have fixed stocks, nothing on the end of the barrel, and I don't think they meet the legal definition of a pistol grip. I have one, but I haven't shot it very much. I've experienced no problems with it thus far. It seems like a reasonable HD weapon, but I need to shoot it more before I move it from the safe to the bedside.

NJ's definition of a pistol grip is vague. Most people err on the side that a thumbhole stock could be considered one.

Besides, pistol grips are legal in NJ. As are "things on the end of a barrel." The Cx4 is as legal in NJ as in any other state.

BaiHu
08-05-2013, 07:08 AM
NJ's definition of a pistol grip is vague. Most people err on the side that a thumbhole stock could be considered one.

Besides, pistol grips are legal in NJ. As are "things on the end of a barrel." The Cx4 is as legal in NJ as in any other state.

Yup! Gotta buddy, that TGS knows, that has it in 9 and 40. And it's their HD gun in lieu of a shotty too.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

rsa-otc
08-05-2013, 07:57 AM
Here are some helpful links for NJ firearms owners from the NJ State Police website:

Attorney General's Guidelines for Substantially Identical with regards to assault weapons restrictions: http://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/agguide/assltf.htm

Transportation or use of hollow point ammo by sportsmen: http://www.njsp.org/about/fire_hollow.html

Transportation of a Firearm to or through the state of NJ: http://www.njsp.org/about/fire_trans.html

Downloadable forms: http://www.njsp.org/info/forms.html#firearms

NJ Firearms Laws as described by the AG, truthfully things like time limits on processing are conveniently left out. http://www.njsp.org/info/pdf/firearms/062408_title13ch54.pdf

You are best going to the actual statutes pertaining to firearms, 2C-39 and 2C-58 here: http://lis.njleg.state.nj.us/cgi-bin/om_isapi.dll?clientID=421979&Depth=4&TD=WRAP&advquery=2C%3a39-1%20%20Definitions&headingswithhits=on&infobase=statutes.nfo&rank=&record={1A38}&softpage=Doc_Frame_Pg42&wordsaroundhits=2&x=34&y=12&zz=

& here

http://lis.njleg.state.nj.us/cgi-bin/om_isapi.dll?clientID=421981&Depth=4&TD=WRAP&advquery=2C%3a58-1.%20%20Registration%20of%20manufacturers%20and%20 wholesale%20dealers%20of%20firearms&headingswithhits=on&infobase=statutes.nfo&rank=&record={1BA9}&softpage=Doc_Frame_Pg42&wordsaroundhits=2&x=34&y=10&zz=

GJM
08-06-2013, 12:01 AM
I picked up my new Beretta 1301 today. Trim, nice handling shotgun. Stock has nice texture. Shotgun has a red FO front sight, over sized bolt handle, over sized action release and over sized safety. Loading port appears to be enlarged compared to the TX Storm, to facilitate easier loading. Trigger feels appropriate for a practical shotgun. With the smaller length butt pad, LOP is 13.0 inches. Receiver is drilled for an optic rail. Need to check it, but I believe the stock height will work with an H1/T1. Feels like a high quality shotgun.

Only obvious thing I noticed was no rear sling stud, but there is a rubber piece in that position on the butt stock that I believe can be removed and a stud added.

jmjames
08-06-2013, 01:16 AM
I picked up my new Beretta 1301 today. Trim, nice handling shotgun. Stock has nice texture. Shotgun has a red FO front sight, over sized bolt handle, over sized action release and over sized safety. Loading port appears to be enlarged compared to the TX Storm, to facilitate easier loading. Trigger feels appropriate for a practical shotgun. With the smaller length butt pad, LOP is 13.0 inches. Receiver is drilled for an optic rail. Need to check it, but I believe the stock height will work with an H1/T1. Feels like a high quality shotgun.

Only obvious thing I noticed was no rear sling stud, but there is a rubber piece in that position on the butt stock that I believe can be removed and a stud added.

Does it still have the button (don't recall what it's called) that lets you prevent a round from feeding? That seems to be a staple feature on Berettas.

How does the stock compare to your favorable impressions of the Storm's stock?

J.Ja

GJM
08-06-2013, 01:21 AM
Does it still have the button (don't recall what it's called) that lets you prevent a round from feeding? That seems to be a staple feature on Berettas.

How does the stock compare to your favorable impressions of the Storm's stock?

J.Ja

Yes, the magazine won't feed a round manually (feeds automatically when fired) without pushing the button located at rear of loading gate.

Stock feels good, but my Storm is about 1,600 miles away from me right now. I set the T1 in a Larue mount loose on top the receiver and it felt as good as it might without having it attached to a rail and firing it.

jmjames
08-06-2013, 10:29 PM
Yes, the magazine won't feed a round manually (feeds automatically when fired) without pushing the button located at rear of loading gate.

Stock feels good, but my Storm is about 1,600 miles away from me right now. I set the T1 in a Larue mount loose on top the receiver and it felt as good as it might without having it attached to a rail and firing it.

I'm sold. :D

The Storm I thought was available turns out to have been a quirk of Internet search tools (found an old, outdated page buried in the bowels of Cabela's). My other shotguns are on Gunbroker right now, and the combined sales price should not only cover the 1301 purchase, but leave a bit extra too.

Thanks again for everyone's input and help!

J.Ja

GJM
08-06-2013, 10:42 PM
Short update, I spoke to BerettaUSA today. Rear rubber piece on butt stock can be pried off to accept an AR style QD sling swivel. Optics rail and stock height work best with a T1 in the Aimpoint factory QD mount, which is lower than a Larue. Rail is backordered as of today.

PS: I worked with A Zoom 12 gauge snap caps today, and the opened up loading gate definitely makes loading easier than the Storm.

jmjames
08-06-2013, 11:30 PM
Short update, I spoke to BerettaUSA today. Rear rubber piece on butt stock can be pried off to accept an AR style QD sling swivel. Optics rail and stock height work best with a T1 in the Aimpoint factory QD mount, which is lower than a Larue. Rail is backordered as of today.

PS: I worked with A Zoom 12 gauge snap caps today, and the opened up loading gate definitely makes loading easier than the Storm.

Funny enough, I pulled an H1 off one of the shotguns before it went to sale... I already know where it's going. :D

Brownell's has that rail in stock, for a few dollars cheaper than Beretta: http://www.brownells.com/shooting-accessories/flashlights-accessories/accessory-mounts/rail-weaver-tx4-prod40974.aspx

I am trying to order one now, but their system is doing something dumb to me. :(

J.Ja

TGS
08-07-2013, 08:43 AM
No chance of an 18" barrel for the 1301?

jmjames
08-07-2013, 09:07 AM
No chance of an 18" barrel for the 1301?

Not that I see, unless you can get an 18" Storm barrel, I have a very strong suspicion that the 18" Storm barrel will fit based on common parts...

You could chop it, which is fine if you don't mind losing the choke and front sight (which isn't a deal breaker if you put a red dot on). Or maybe chop it to 16.5" or so, and permanently attach a poly choke to it if you really want a choke. They are a bit heavy though. I'm highly considering this route, I may add.

J.Ja

TGS
08-07-2013, 09:45 AM
How would you guys compare these to the older Beretta 1201FP? There's a bunch out there for sale, and they're much cheaper. Is the recoil really that much worse with the inertia driven 1201FP?

GJM
08-07-2013, 10:03 AM
I think I read in a thread on the Beretta forum that a Storm barrel won't fit. In any event, the sights sit enough higher on the Storm, which has a different stock height, so even if the barrel fit mechanically, and you could get one, I am not sure it would make sense.

I have no experience with the 1201FP, but I have a vague recollection DocGKR telling me they had a bunch, and they didn't run.

Despite my affection for the Storm, for a number of reasons including price, that product wasn't successful in the marketplace. Since Beretta obviously knows a bit about making shotguns, I am hoping the 1301 catches on and becomes the base for a practical/defensive line of shotguns, leading to a 18 and 14 inch model plus a SF fore end.

Chuck Haggard
08-07-2013, 10:35 AM
Would it be possible to chop the barrel and then get screw in chokes installed? I have seen this done in the past with Rem 870s.

GJM
08-07-2013, 11:06 AM
While it might be theoretically possible, looking at the rib design it sure looks like it would be a lot of work. Cutting the barrel to 18, would leave no support for the rib at the muzzle. 14 inches looks like it would just work and be flush with the end cap on magazine tube. No idea whether the gas system would have to be retuned for shorter barrel lengths.

As I said before, I hope this shotgun takes off and Beretta supports it with options like shorter barrels.

GJM
09-03-2013, 01:17 AM
Beretta 1301 update -- I finally got to shoot mine today. I received the Beretta optics rail from Brownell's, screwed it on, dropped a T1 on, with no attempt to bore sight or otherwise zero it. I shot it at 25 yards, which is the distance I zero my slugs for bear defense, and fired five slugs. They went into one large cloverleaf, perfect in elevation but one inch right of the dot. Three clicks left on the T1, and zeroed. About the most painless zeroing I have ever had. Recoil was very modest, and using my calibrated measuring device (my shoulder), felt recoil seemed about 50 percent of the Benelli M2. Next I shot the only birdshot I had, some very lower power economy loads, and they didn't reliably run. When they did, ringing the steel was a delight. While it is early in the evaluation process, so far I really like it.

DocGKR
09-03-2013, 01:49 AM
A large agency here had 1201's--they SUCKED.

The Remington Versamax is nice--so far working much better than the 11-87.

GJM
09-03-2013, 10:48 AM
A large agency here had 1201's--they SUCKED.

The Remington Versamax is nice--so far working much better than the 11-87.

Not suggesting you are implying a connection, but the 1201 was a completely different beast. The 1201 was inertial operated, more akin to a Benelli, where the TX Storm and 1301 are gas operated, and mechanically similar to other Beretta gas operated shotguns. The value of TX Storm shotguns, now discontinued by Beretta, is going crazy high when they can be found at all, by people who understand how good they are.

BWT
09-10-2013, 02:24 PM
I would not recommend birdshot as suggested by RSA-OTC.

Dick Cheney shot a senior citizen with birdshot in the face, he lived.

In Spartanburg (next city over) a guy shot another guy with birdshot and the dude beat the crap out of him.

This is patently horrible advice that is repeated again and again and again.

Buckshot penetrates just as deeply as FMJ pistol rounds. Perhaps 9mm as 000 Buck.

rsa-otc
09-10-2013, 07:31 PM
I would not recommend birdshot as suggested by RSA-OTC.

Dick Cheney shot a senior citizen with birdshot in the face, he lived.

In Spartanburg (next city over) a guy shot another guy with birdshot and the dude beat the crap out of him.

This is patently horrible advice that is repeated again and again and again.

Buckshot penetrates just as deeply as FMJ pistol rounds. Perhaps 9mm as 000 Buck.

Cheney shot Whittington at a distance of 30 to 40 yards not 21 feet or room length distance. At what distance was the altercation in Spartanburg at?

My advise is only for close quarters interior home defense not at greater distances where the shot column has had a chance to disperse.

BWT
09-11-2013, 10:01 AM
Cheney shot Whittington at a distance of 30 to 40 yards not 21 feet or room length distance. At what distance was the altercation in Spartanburg at?

My advise is only for close quarters interior home defense not at greater distances where the shot column has had a chance to disperse.

First of all, I'd like to apologize for the tone I took and way I handled the way I said that earlier.

Point blank in Spartanburg.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/12%20Gauge/12%20Gauge%20Shotgun%20Summary%20Table

It seems that on bare gelatin you get about 4-6" of penetration. The Average being around 4".

Tamara
09-11-2013, 10:28 AM
It seems that on bare gelatin you get about 4-6" of penetration. The Average being around 4".

Like frangible handgun bullets, this is one of those things that, when it works just right, works spectacularly right. I've heard tales from police officer friends who were first on the scene after a homeowner with a stack-barrel skeet gun warned the intruder not to come through the door. "Chewed a rat hole" is, I believe, the term that was used. Four to six inches? Take a melon ball scooper and dig a four-to-six-inch-deep, 1" diameter hole between somebody's nipples and see how they feel, because that's what a near-muzzle-contact shot with a choked fowling piece and some Wally World promo 2 3/4" birdshot is likely going to do...

...provided the lightly-clad guy of reasonably average build is just standing there facing the shooter at near-muzzle-contact distance, of course.

On the other hand, that's assuming everything goes right, which is a mighty big assumption to make considering that things have to have already gone wrong to need to grab a long gun in the first place. All variables considered, I'm with you: I don't know I'd necessarily want to go smaller than #4 buck.

Chuck Haggard
09-11-2013, 10:33 AM
I have seen people chopped up at close range with bird shot, and I mean like from ten feet away. One murder victim was missing an arm from being whacked by her ex with #6 duck and pheasant loads.

However, comma, I have also seen several OISs that led to us going from 4buck back to OObuck after we had some pretty serious underpenetration issues.

In one case having to shoot a bad guy wearing a denim jacket through a screened storm door led to all of the #4 buck pellets stopping on the bad guy's rib cage. Ammo in question would be a full power (this was well before low recoil loads hit the market) Remington 27 pellet load from an 18" 870, shot made from the front yard across the porch, maybe ten yards away.

#1 buck is as small as I prefer to go, not that I wouldn't use what I had if forced to do so.

BWT
09-11-2013, 11:37 AM
Like frangible handgun bullets, this is one of those things that, when it works just right, works spectacularly right. I've heard tales from police officer friends who were first on the scene after a homeowner with a stack-barrel skeet gun warned the intruder not to come through the door. "Chewed a rat hole" is, I believe, the term that was used. Four to six inches? Take a melon ball scooper and dig a four-to-six-inch-deep, 1" diameter hole between somebody's nipples and see how they feel, because that's what a near-muzzle-contact shot with a choked fowling piece and some Wally World promo 2 3/4" birdshot is likely going to do...

...provided the lightly-clad guy of reasonably average build is just standing there facing the shooter at near-muzzle-contact distance, of course.

On the other hand, that's assuming everything goes right, which is a mighty big assumption to make considering that things have to have already gone wrong to need to grab a long gun in the first place. All variables considered, I'm with you: I don't know I'd necessarily want to go smaller than #4 buck.

Naked skin is ballistic gel, actually that's incorrect, internal flesh is more accurate. Skin is actually tougher than the interior. So assuming someone has no bones (i.e, rib cage or skull that BBs will deflect off of) and no shirt or jacket on. (Notice there was no 4 Layer denim or windshield ballistic test for birdshot)

I'll remind all of you this is also New Jersey which means most people will be wearing coats close to half the year.

You might get lucky and get some of the smallest BB's at the lowest velocity loading to make it to the internal organs. Which makes the smallest wound cavity on its way there, which leaks the least amount of blood.

But why would you?

Do any of you carry FMJ for self-defense?

I mean it's a bullet? FMJ kills tons of people everyday!

ETA: It's literally telling people to use the absolute worst loading possible for the scenario to use that loading in the most crucial times.

The slowest, smallest and most cheaply made loading for self-defense.

5.56mm 75 gr TAP for self defense? Screw that .223 55 gr wolf. 9mm 147 gr HST? Pfffft who needs that 115 gr FMJ Tulammo!

Except Wolf and Tulammo are drastically more effective than birdshot versus buckshot.

5.56??? How about .22 Short, it's the same caliber, why not?

ETA 2: To drive the stake home.

Who uses Birdshot to hunt Turkey or Duck here?

Or anything else other than those animals?

Why would you not use a load made for a less than 3-5 lb animal within about 40-60 yards with hollow bones on a aggressive attacker weighing 165 with not hollow bones?

And those doves? They aren't going to shoot you back in the middle of the night in your house at hallway distance. I'm just saying.

I have been harsh in this comment but it's just because I want people to not be injured or killed depending on the wrong equipment.

How many Police, Military or Protective Services use birdshot?

Name One.

Tamara
09-11-2013, 12:58 PM
BWT,

Did you read all the way to where I wrote


I'm with you: I don't know I'd necessarily want to go smaller than #4 buck.

...or just see red, hit "reply with quote" and start ragetyping after the first sentence?

I would never recommend somebody use birdshot for home defense, nor have I ever done so. The window for its successful deployment is way too narrow, like I said in my post.

ETA: Chill, dude.

ETA: Calm down.

ETA: I was agreeing with you, for Pete's sake.

BWT
09-11-2013, 01:24 PM
I didn't mean to rage type.

It's just, I've heard the birdshot for 12 GA for self-defense comment a lot. I'd like to see it not perpetuated.

My conduct wasn't very gracious, I just apologized too.

Al T.
09-11-2013, 07:27 PM
Shotguns are very much like swords - the closer you are to that muzzle, the deadlier they are, regardless of load.

My problem is downrange hazards to innocents. The lighter-loaded gauge gives me more room for error, so it's loaded with BBs. As for 8s, 7 1/2s, etc., nope, though I have killed critters at very close range with birdshot. Not recommended though.

TGS
09-11-2013, 08:27 PM
I have seen people chopped up at close range with bird shot, and I mean like from ten feet away. One murder victim was missing an arm from being whacked by her ex with #6 duck and pheasant loads.

However, comma, I have also seen several OISs that led to us going from 4buck back to OObuck after we had some pretty serious underpenetration issues.

In one case having to shoot a bad guy wearing a denim jacket through a screened storm door led to all of the #4 buck pellets stopping on the bad guy's rib cage. Ammo in question would be a full power (this was well before low recoil loads hit the market) Remington 27 pellet load from an 18" 870, shot made from the front yard across the porch, maybe ten yards away.

#1 buck is as small as I prefer to go, not that I wouldn't use what I had if forced to do so.

As was mentioned above, I think the range involved has a great matter of influence on the effectiveness of birdshot....so that should probably weigh in on anyone's decision.

My house? I live in a house typical for an older northeast city dwelling....I don't think I could find 10 yards of linear space anywhere in my home unless I was standing on the back porch and shooting to the front door. If you were to hide behind any bed in the house and train the shotgun on the door, you'd have about 6 feet from muzzle to target. I really wouldn't be uncomfortable with putting birdshot in my 12ga.

But, rsa-otc gave me some spare Federal 00 Flight-Control, and being the sort of person that prefers to smash a fly with a sledgehammer, I load my 12ga with such. That stuff is the bomb.

Chuck Haggard
09-11-2013, 08:39 PM
But, rsa-otc gave me some spare Federal 00 Flight-Control, and being the sort of person that prefers to smash a fly with a sledgehammer, I load my 12ga with such. That stuff is the bomb.

At the distances in question what you have is slugs loaded in your gun, actually maybe worse in penetration terms since Foster style slugs will mushroom big time at close range, Flightcontrol blows through in a single mass. Just an FYI

jmjames
09-11-2013, 08:50 PM
But, rsa-otc gave me some spare Federal 00 Flight-Control, and being the sort of person that prefers to smash a fly with a sledgehammer, I load my 12ga with such. That stuff is the bomb.

I have a case of that stuff, and my only regret is that I can't find it in #1, and the one time I saw it in #1, I thought it would be around forever and that was obviously a mistake.

J.Ja

TGS
09-11-2013, 09:20 PM
At the distances in question what you have is slugs loaded in your gun, actually maybe worse in penetration terms since Foster style slugs will mushroom big time at close range, Flightcontrol blows through in a single mass. Just an FYI

He also gave me some LE127RS slugs. You think those would be a better choice for the distances I'm at? I also have some run of the mill Federal and Fiocchi low recoil 00.

I'm personally not worried about over-penetration with the 00, especially with the construction of my house and neighboring houses. A miss with a slug might be a bad thing, however.



I have a case of that stuff, and my only regret is that I can't find it in #1, and the one time I saw it in #1, I thought it would be around forever and that was obviously a mistake.

J.Ja


Mmmmhmmm.

You up here yet?

Chuck Haggard
09-11-2013, 09:25 PM
He also gave me some LE127RS slugs. You think those would be a better choice for the distances I'm at? I also have some run of the mill Federal and Fiocchi low recoil 00.

I'm personally not worried about over-penetration with the 00, especially with the construction of my house and neighboring houses. A miss with a slug might be a bad thing, however.


At those distances and if I was at all worried about shoot throughs I would use the slugs or the other OO buck. Flightcontrol has quite a bit of penetration when it hits all together.

jmjames
09-11-2013, 10:11 PM
He also gave me some LE127RS slugs. You think those would be a better choice for the distances I'm at? I also have some run of the mill Federal and Fiocchi low recoil 00.

I'm personally not worried about over-penetration with the 00, especially with the construction of my house and neighboring houses. A miss with a slug might be a bad thing, however.





Mmmmhmmm.

You up here yet?

Funny, I've got a small pile of those LE127RS slugs too, and like them a lot.

I got here the week of August 26, things are *finally* settled enough where I could get out to a range. I don't need an FPID to go shoot do I, just to buy stuff? I'd hate to show up to a range and end up in trouble due to a lack of an FPID...

J.Ja

TGS
09-11-2013, 11:51 PM
A FPID card is only required to purchase, correct. It is not needed to shoot or transport a gun to an FFL/gunsmith/range/ect, provided you don't make any unnecessary intermediate stops.

NRA-ILA (http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/new-jersey.aspx)

Lots of misconceptions about it (along with people who think you need to register your guns and that JHPs are strictly illegal) but most of the ranges seem to understand the operative word in Firearms Purchasers ID. Be aware, however, that if you don't have an FPID you can't even finger-bang a gat at your favored venue of arms sales.

Without an FPID you cannot buy pistol ammo in person in NJ. However, you can order online and have ammo shipped to your house (unless that changed recently, which I haven't heard). Some vendors won't do it unless you fax them a copy of your FPID. Ammotogo, Cabelas, and Sportsman's Guide do not, as it's something to do with the fact that NJ cannot regulate interstate commerce, only the sales of ammo inside their borders. Completely legal. My UPS guy got tired of hauling 50lbs of ammo to the porch, however.

You may also want to consider shooting in PA. There's a few ranges in Philly, as well as Ready, Aim, Fire in Bristol (rsa-otc used to be a member) and Classic Pistol in Southampton (I used to be a member).

jmjames
09-12-2013, 12:32 AM
Thanks!

It's funny, but the challenge for me is the misconceptions on the parts of others more than anything else. For example, I went to put in an ammo order, and some of my favorite places won't ship, no doubt because they either can't figure the laws out or don't want to bother. And I *keep* hearing this JHP thing, and I know it's not what people say it is... but it's like the "serial killer I hit with the frying pan in Act III" of gun laws myths, it seems. The more I saw some of the neurosis around the FPID, the more I was starting the doubt my understanding of it... Ah well, what'cha gonna do?

J.Ja

BWT
09-12-2013, 08:59 AM
I just wanted to take a second and apologize to Tam and RSA-OTC. I could've stated my concerns in a much more graceful and constructive way.

It's easy to blast someone on an Internet forum with anonymity with complete disregard for that person. I dislike it when I see it, and I definitely disapprove it in my own conduct as a Christian. So I figured in the same venue try to redeem it.

Thanks for understanding and God Bless,

Brandon.

rsa-otc
09-12-2013, 09:02 AM
Thanks!

It's funny, but the challenge for me is the misconceptions on the parts of others more than anything else. For example, I went to put in an ammo order, and some of my favorite places won't ship, no doubt because they either can't figure the laws out or don't want to bother. And I *keep* hearing this JHP thing, and I know it's not what people say it is... but it's like the "serial killer I hit with the frying pan in Act III" of gun laws myths, it seems. The more I saw some of the neurosis around the FPID, the more I was starting the doubt my understanding of it... Ah well, what'cha gonna do?

J.Ja

Print out some of those links from the NJ State Police Website, they can be helpful clearing up the confusion of others. Especially some of NJ's LEO's who have their own incorrect assumptions.

There are some outdoor ranges within striking distance of your location in NJ:

South Jersey Shooting Club - outside of Hammonton
http://sjerseyshootingclub.com/

They have a 100 and 300 yard Rifle bays as well as pistol bays. More of a commercial enterprise but it is clean and well maintained. There is an IDPA match the 2nd Saturday each month on the back range. Usually runs about 60 rounds over 4 to 5 stages. Registration is at 8am shooting starts at 9am over between 12 to 1. I'm usually there 50% of the time when my schedule allows.

Quinton Sportsman Club - Salem County, NJ
http://www.quintonsportsmensclub.com/

More Clubsy then commercial but well maintained and laid out. I believe their rifle range is only 100 yards. They also have Skeet, Trap & Archery ranges.
They run an IDPA match the 3rd Saturday of the month usually 6 stages approx. 80 plus rounds. Times are very similar, they are able to run two relays at once with their layout. I shoot that match when I am unable to shoot the SJIDPA match. When I'm there they usually corral me into SOing.

Believe it or not there are a lot more shooting clubs in NJ then one would think. Lots of smaller hunting/fishing clubs that have there own small trap and centerfire ranges similar to the Pleasant Plains Gun Club my company rents to do it's training located between Fort Dix and Lakehurst Navel Air Station. If you mind your P's & Q's you shouldn't have any issues.

rsa-otc
09-12-2013, 05:29 PM
I just wanted to take a second and apologize to Tam and RSA-OTC. I could've stated my concerns in a much more graceful and constructive way.

It's easy to blast someone on an Internet forum with anonymity with complete disregard for that person. I dislike it when I see it, and I definitely disapprove it in my own conduct as a Christian. So I figured in the same venue try to redeem it.

Thanks for understanding and God Bless,

Brandon.

Dude don't sweat it. Totally understand how easy it is to come off wrong with this new age tech, such as email, texting and of course forums. Sometimes you only have time to jot off a quick note and it can come off totally different than how you actually meant it. Been there, done that, I have a closet full of those t-shirts. Of course it doesn't help that English composition wasn't my best subject in school and writing is a chore.:p More a math science guy.

TGS
09-12-2013, 06:29 PM
Believe it or not there are a lot more shooting clubs in NJ then one would think. Lots of smaller hunting/fishing clubs that have there own small trap and centerfire ranges similar to the Pleasant Plains Gun Club my company rents to do it's training located between Fort Dix and Lakehurst Navel Air Station. If you mind your P's & Q's you shouldn't have any issues.

Not only a lot of shooting ranges up here, but for the most part they're all nice, as well. Pretty much any range I ever went to in Virginia, including the NRA range, was either outright ghetto or disappointing compared to most ranges up here, and there's lots of them. At least 10 within an hour of me, including ranges out to 600 open any day you want and a 24/7 indoor pistol range (that's where BaiHu and future Mrs Baihu go shooting when insomnia kicks in).

Tamara
09-12-2013, 06:43 PM
I just wanted to take a second and apologize to Tam and RSA-OTC. I could've stated my concerns in a much more graceful and constructive way.

It's easy to blast someone on an Internet forum with anonymity with complete disregard for that person. I dislike it when I see it, and I definitely disapprove it in my own conduct as a Christian. So I figured in the same venue try to redeem it.

Thanks for understanding and God Bless,

Brandon.

That was the most gracious thing I've seen on the internet in a long time.

No worries; it's all cool. :cool:

rsa-otc
09-12-2013, 06:56 PM
That was the most gracious thing I've seen on the internet in a long time.

No worries; it's all cool. :cool:

Tam once again you said it better than me and did it in fewer words as well. I bow to the master.

jmjames
09-12-2013, 09:21 PM
Thanks for the pointers to the ranges!

J.Ja