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JHC
08-02-2013, 10:55 AM
Short vid that covers a lot of ground. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vPCqMo9TCg

His "die well" tenets are pretty strong sauce.

LittleLebowski
08-02-2013, 12:05 PM
Good video from an excellent trainer. Had that lecture from him in person.

Cookie Monster
08-02-2013, 03:08 PM
Heard the Feeder/Receiver stuff from Tom Kier back in 2002. Good wisdom, I've forgotten.

Cookie Monster

BJJ
08-02-2013, 03:47 PM
Powerful stuff. The "die well" part reminded me of a story that I think I read on www.odmp.org which is the Officer Down Memorial Page. A female officer arrived at a residence to handle a call. Almost immediately after exiting her vehicle, she was ambushed and fatally wounded by a shotgun blast. Despite being fatally wounded, she returned fire and made a 15 yard headshot on her attacker. The attacker was killed instantly. Gives me goosebumps just thinking about it.

Thanks for posting that. Defoor is definitely on my short list of people to train with.

jlw
08-02-2013, 04:04 PM
That applies to more than self protection...

Suvorov
08-02-2013, 04:33 PM
The sad thing is that there are thousands out there who would call this nothing but a bunch of wannabe fantasy.

Chuck Haggard
08-02-2013, 05:14 PM
I was at a class taught by Alexis Artwohl on dealing with OISs when she said out loud in the middle of class "Don't just train to survive, you need to train to prevail. If you fall short of victory then hopefully you'll at least survive, but if you can't survive then take the motherfucker with you, don't make your family sit through a murder trial".

JHC
08-02-2013, 05:15 PM
Deleted

zacbol
08-02-2013, 06:24 PM
There was a lot of good stuff there. The only part I didn't much care for was the example Defoor used when explaining his idea that one should 'Die well'. I understood him to imply I have some intrinsic duty to protect the lives of others. To me, my first duty is to protect my family, be a provider to them and be a father to my son. The lives of others are secondary to that. Rather than rush in (in his example), I would get my family to a safe area (assuming they were with me) and then call the police and be a good witness. Call that cowardice or callousness if you wish but I'm not a cop and I have no duty to protect the lives of others. Now, if the life of someone I love was at stake, it's a whole different ball game.

And I should add, I don't judge someone for viewing things as he does, I just have different priorities.

BoppaBear
08-02-2013, 07:27 PM
Good video. He's in NC in October. I'd love to get in a course.

I took the "Die Well" more philosophically. I don't think he's suggesting going John Mcclane on them, but more that if you have the "willingness" to help others that cannot help themselves, then you should.

Keeping in mind, of course, he is a decorated SEAL with real world combat experience. I would bet that he teaches to the same standards that were/are expected of him though.

LittleLebowski
08-02-2013, 07:55 PM
I have a hard time taking Kier seriously but not so with Defoor.

Rubio Negro
08-02-2013, 08:25 PM
Thanks for sharing that. Really made me think.

ToddG
08-02-2013, 08:51 PM
Kyle's a very good instructor and an excellent pistol shooter. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend him.

SJC3081
08-02-2013, 10:25 PM
If you are willing to employ DPF when needed that if 75% of the battle. Most men will hestiate when they need to kill another man. Those who don't hestiate are willing and they survive.

Bigguy
08-02-2013, 11:16 PM
There was a lot of good stuff there. The only part I didn't much care for was the example Defoor used when explaining his idea that one should 'Die well'. I understood him to imply I have some intrinsic duty to protect the lives of others. To me, my first duty is to protect my family, be a provider to them and be a father to my son. The lives of others are secondary to that. Rather than rush in (in his example), I would get my family to a safe area (assuming they were with me) and then call the police and be a good witness. Call that cowardice or callousness if you wish but I'm not a cop and I have no duty to protect the lives of others. Now, if the life of someone I love was at stake, it's a whole different ball game.

And I should add, I don't judge someone for viewing things as he does, I just have different priorities.

Same here. My duty is to me and mine. I am not a sheepdog. There are obviously some exceptions. Women*, children and the infirm. But another healthy male can make the same decision I made to protect himself. I'm not depriving my wife of her husband or my kids of their father because some other, capable guy, decided not to.

* I know there are some number of women who could whip my 57-year-old butt in hand to hand. And there are many more who could shoot rings around me. Some of them are likely members of this board. None-the-less, I was raised in a time when the phrase. "women and children first," was unquestioned. Whether they need it or not, I'm to old now to not believe that any woman is entitled to any protection I can provide.

JHC
08-03-2013, 05:33 AM
Kyle Defoor's scenario was quite explicit. I don't think he is going to be splitting hairs about whether children, the elderly or able bodied males were being murdered in the restaurant.

But that is a striking element of his "Mind Set" package. He goes right at it. Sort out your "Why" first.

JHC
08-03-2013, 05:46 AM
I understood him to imply I have some intrinsic duty to protect the lives of others. To me, my first duty is to protect my family, be a provider to them and be a father to my son. The lives of others are secondary to that. Rather than rush in (in his example), I would get my family to a safe area (assuming they were with me) and then call the police and be a good witness. Call that cowardice or callousness if you wish but I'm not a cop and I have no duty to protect the lives of others. Now, if the life of someone I love was at stake, it's a whole different ball game.

And I should add, I don't judge someone for viewing things as he does, I just have different priorities.

Or even more than "imply". I think he put it flat out on the table. Walk on by when you could have helped and forget about "dying well". OTOH he laid out the "why" part first. If you check that box that your Why question is settled as you laid out; that seemed to work for his methodology explained, if not for him personally.

It's part and parcel of a system of morality; an ethic that Kyle's writings explicitly endorse. I would not be too far out on a limb to guess it is alien to almost everyone I know except my some of my mil friends and family.

In my circle of non-martial friends and co-workers, I don't know a single one who has given one moment of thought to dying well. In discussions examining mortality I am prone to instigating; the vast majority say they want to die in their sleep.

I really appreciate Defoor tackling this head on. I think it is a long neglected part of mindset training. Some others cultures historically have embraced it; albeit not modern ones much. Today IMO our overall culture avoids it.

I would love to hear his long version of this live.

Al T.
08-03-2013, 10:37 AM
Excellent find, thanks for posting Joe!

zacbol
08-03-2013, 10:57 AM
Or even more than "imply". I think he put it flat out on the table. Walk on by when you could have helped and forget about "dying well". OTOH he laid out the "why" part first. If you check that box that your Why question is settled as you laid out; that seemed to work for his methodology explained, if not for him personally.

It's part and parcel of a system of morality; an ethic that Kyle's writings explicitly endorse. I would not be too far out on a limb to guess it is alien to almost everyone I know except my some of my mil friends and family.

In my circle of non-martial friends and co-workers, I don't know a single one who has given one moment of thought to dying well. In discussions examining mortality I am prone to instigating; the vast majority say they want to die in their sleep.

I really appreciate Defoor tackling this head on. I think it is a long neglected part of mindset training. Some others cultures historically have embraced it; albeit not modern ones much. Today IMO our overall culture avoids it.

I would love to hear his long version of this live.
I've heard John Holschen and others at Insights present similar material to what Defoor is talking about here a few times now and it's resonated a lot more with me personally. Holschen speaks about having a 'mission statement' that you decide on, that is specifically yours, and that informs your actions. He shared his which is "I'm going to come through this with a minimum of damage to me and mine." Personally, I can't think of a better one.

Of course, there is no right/wrong, it's just about what's important to you. There's nothing to prevent you from using one that involve an absolute moral imperative to protect everyone regardless of circumstance. Holschen does however run through various videos, particularly in a class like Street & Vehicle Tactics, and asks you to evaluate the situation, why you would or wouldn't get involved and what risk you are taking, both in that moment and going forward. Sometimes something that seems obvious, a woman being knifed by a man, might not be. You don't know what happened *before* you got there.

Holschen provides an thought experiment about involving yourself, which goes something like: you go to the same Starbuck's every day. One day the woman who serves you you're coffee says she's dying of cancer and needs 60K to get a treatment that will save her life. Do you liquidate your bank account to save her? What does that mean for your own ability to pay bills, provide for your family? Because if you get involved in a shooting, you are probably looking at 60K plus just to stay out of court. It's obviously a slightly artificial example, you can pick holes in it if you try, but I think it's still useful way to think about priorities and what you are willing to give up by making the question more an everyday one that does not require heroics.

I actually think the notion of involving oneself to save others more common amongst CCWers who haven't thought about this stuff, than the converse. Obviously, Defoor has put a lot of thought into the subject so in no way am I linking him to that, just that the end result is similar. I certainly enjoyed the talk and would even adopt the notion of 'Dying well', it just means something different to me than him. I have my own priorities and Holchen and crew helped me to really see that, whereas before I probably actually would have been *more* inclined to involve myself in certain situations rather than looking at things a bit more logically and methodically.

CR78
08-03-2013, 02:55 PM
For those of you that have heard Defoor's mindset lecture in person, how does it vary from the video? I've read AAR's that say the mindset lecture alone is worth taking the class for, and it always seemed that the content was sacred, for lack of a better word,...something discussed only between those who have taken the class. I'm somewhat surprised to see KD create a video discussing it, though the content is clearly abbreviated. His pistol course is definitely at the top of my list.

Clyde from Carolina
08-03-2013, 03:25 PM
Interesting.

I tend to agree with Kyle's point of view on dying well and fully agree (like he said) it isn't for everyone. It reminded me of something a very good friend once told me. He's an infantry multiple tour combat vet, btw. He said if he had been in a concentration camp and the Nazi goon was going down the line shooting every other prisoner, a la Schindler's List, he WOULD NOT LET THAT HAPPEN. I said, so what, you would scuffle with one of the Nazis, maybe get a gun if you are lucky and probably not get a shot off, and still die? He said, "Yep, but I wouldn't go out without a fight. One way or the other."

This might be taken as just big talk if the guy hadn't already put his life on the line numerous times as both a soldier and a cop. He meant what he said, I have no doubt. I think he meant to die well, come hell or high water. I think some people just have this mindset, some don't. I don't know that you are necessarily born with it, but maybe then again you are? Anybody read Marine about General Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller? Remember the part where it said as a young boy he was watching a parade with a family friend (and old timer Civil War vet himself) of geriatric Confederate Civil War veterans walking down the street in Richmond around 1910 or so? Puller asked a simple question of his old veteran friend.

"How did we lose the war with so many of them left alive?"

Chuck Haggard
08-03-2013, 03:56 PM
I was raised by a man who fought in both Korea and Vietnam, against enemies that you could not surrender to. My mom's dad survived being on the losing side in WWII, including having made it out of Stalingrad.

I was raised with the idea that there may come a day when you have to stand and deliver, whether or not you have a good chance of winning, and that there were indeed things worth dieing for, and things worse than death.

Randy Watt's "Warrior's Creed" sums up this attitude, and what me and a lot of guys I know feel; http://www.onewarriorscreed.com/


One of the few TV shows that I have watched for any amount of time is NCIS. I like the characters, especially Mike Franks since he reminds me of a coupel of men I knew growing up.
The scene of his murder by a serial killer was something I could identify with. He is dieing of cancer and knows it, is in poor health, but when faced with an assasin he offers "I figure I got one more fight left in me. You want it?" Reminded me of 'The Shootist' in a way.

Only clip of the scene I could find; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6lip-0JCI8

Clyde from Carolina
08-03-2013, 04:35 PM
Good stuff. I will check them out-- not familiar with them but they sound like cut from the same cloth.

JHC
08-03-2013, 05:03 PM
I was raised by a man who fought in both Korea and Vietnam, against enemies that you could not surrender to. My mom's dad survived being on the losing side in WWII, including having made it out of Stalingrad.

I was raised with the idea that there may come a day when you have to stand and deliver, whether or not you have a good chance of winning, and that there were indeed things worth dieing for, and things worse than death.

Randy Watt's "Warrior's Creed" sums up this attitude, and what me and a lot of guys I know feel; http://www.onewarriorscreed.com/


One of the few TV shows that I have watched for any amount of time is NCIS. I like the characters, especially Mike Franks since he reminds me of a coupel of men I knew growing up.
The scene of his murder by a serial killer was something I could identify with. He is dieing of cancer and knows it, is in poor health, but when faced with an assasin he offers "I figure I got one more fight left in me. You want it?" Reminded me of 'The Shootist' in a way.

Only clip of the scene I could find; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6lip-0JCI8

Awesome post about the sacred stuff. I will not dilute it with another word.

rob_s
08-03-2013, 08:25 PM
The sad thing is that there are thousands out there who would call this nothing but a bunch of wannabe fantasy.

There are thousands out there for whom it IS nothing but a bunch of wannabe fantasy. And I don't mean Kyle.

I have also heard the talk in person and had the same thought as others in this thread, which is to say if other people don't want to be killed in violent confrontations, they should have brought their own gun and had their own plan. I'm not dying for strangers, I'm taking care of me and mine. Today, tomorrow, next year, ten years from now. I die shooting it out with some idiot in a movie theater instead of taking care of mine, who is going to protect them in a year when it happens again?

Shawn.L
08-03-2013, 09:40 PM
Or even more than "imply". I think he put it flat out on the table. Walk on by when you could have helped and forget about "dying well". OTOH he laid out the "why" part first. If you check that box that your Why question is settled as you laid out; that seemed to work for his methodology explained, if not for him personally.

It's part and parcel of a system of morality; an ethic that Kyle's writings explicitly endorse. I would not be too far out on a limb to guess it is alien to almost everyone I know except my some of my mil friends and family.

In my circle of non-martial friends and co-workers, I don't know a single one who has given one moment of thought to dying well. In discussions examining mortality I am prone to instigating; the vast majority say they want to die in their sleep.

I really appreciate Defoor tackling this head on. I think it is a long neglected part of mindset training. Some others cultures historically have embraced it; albeit not modern ones much. Today IMO our overall culture avoids it.

I would love to hear his long version of this live.

I hear a lot of people who have made those other choices. Kyles lays it out flat, and I agree, thats cool, thats your thing, ok. We each decide how to spend our lives. The solid part here that has resonated with me, and speaks back to the old Cooper lectures is that those decisions need to be made ahead of time. The time to decide for who and where you draw the line is now, not in the heat of the moment.

When I was first exposed to this line of thought in my first muti day course with some old gunsite guys with funny hats I had not really been starkly honest about it before. I was carrying a gun, without having a conversation with my wife, my friends, those that provide guidance in my life about the reality of under what circumstances I was willing to use it.

There is an active denial in a great many people who dismiss the notion of having to actually use the gun on their hip or in the closet.




For those of you that have heard Defoor's mindset lecture in person, how does it vary from the video? I've read AAR's that say the mindset lecture alone is worth taking the class for, and it always seemed that the content was sacred, for lack of a better word,...something discussed only between those who have taken the class. I'm somewhat surprised to see KD create a video discussing it, though the content is clearly abbreviated. His pistol course is definitely at the top of my list.

Ive heard it in person several times, seen its evolution until now where he gives it in OE classes, and had it from Tom individually and from the two together.

I wouldnt say its "sacred" , but it is serious, and trying to repeat it online doesnt do it justice. Further some of the material can be rather emotional and just isnt fit for public consumption.

Chuck Whitlock
08-04-2013, 04:01 PM
In line with Clyde and Chuck's posts, I am reminded of this quote:

"It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees."
-Emiliano Zapata

What that may, or may not, mean to you is, of course, open to your own interpretation.

aboveandbeyond
08-26-2013, 09:19 PM
I took his OE pistol class last winter. It was this talk that conceptualized why I was taking these sorts of classes. "The talk" literally changed the way I viewed life. It instilled confidence in me, to be a better a person, to have a higher moral value. Always control the situation, whether it be in a fight or in my case, business.

Death is something we will all face, how do you want to die? Some rather go quietly into the night and that's fine. I rather my face death so that others may live.

That's what I took from his priceless speech...

GardoneVT
08-26-2013, 09:32 PM
Some years back, after my first close call while carrying, I decided to undertake a personal study of bad guys-not the typical street thugs, either.

I read police reports, checked out books, plumbed my university's database on hardened predators, and reviewed cases of spree killers.

One thing I noticed among the truly hardcore bad guys are a single-minded determination to come out on top, backed up by skills to enforce that mental willpower to deadly effect. I'll pick the case of the 1986 FBI shootout for an example of that principle. Obviously , Matix and Platt were determined to take down the agents intent on stopping them-and those scumbags didn't care about dying. They cared about taking down their pursuers, and nearly succeeded.

What stopped them was the actions of an FBI agent with a shredded arm and a revolver. For all the hype about firearms, training, and tactics, we have to remember that the man who stopped it was a wounded agent with a 6 shot .38 special revolver.


That's the mindset we need to encourage as People of the Gun. It isn't one which will make friends in our wishy-washy, negotiate and whimper society. Violence is just too insensitive , don't you know. Never mind that our society was born of violence by our predecessors.

F***k that social con . I cannot speak to your mindset on things, dear reader, but I can tell you my own-my mother will NOT be burying her only son. Simple as that. If anyone raises a hand against me and mine with lethal intent, I will ensure it will be the last mistake they'll ever make.

As a better shooter then me once said,it isn't hardware which wins fights. Its the men behind the gear.

TumblinDown
08-26-2013, 10:47 PM
Some years back, after my first close call while carrying, I decided to undertake a personal study of bad guys-not the typical street thugs, either.

I read police reports, checked out books, plumbed my university's database on hardened predators, and reviewed cases of spree killers.

Any particular books to recommend? I've been reading, but with less of a tight focus than what you imply. I started with Rory Miller's Facing Violence, then de Becker's The Gift of Fear, and Miller/Kane's Scaling Forcing waiting on deck.

1slow
08-27-2013, 10:56 AM
When I was 18 one of my mentors said "you don't have to be that good, you have to be willing."
He was good and believed it was necessary to train to be good. The really daunting thing about him was that he was always willing to kill an attacker by any means possible.

Badfish25
09-03-2013, 09:26 PM
For those of you that have heard Defoor's mindset lecture in person, how does it vary from the video? I've read AAR's that say the mindset lecture alone is worth taking the class for, and it always seemed that the content was sacred, for lack of a better word,...something discussed only between those who have taken the class. I'm somewhat surprised to see KD create a video discussing it, though the content is clearly abbreviated. His pistol course is definitely at the top of my list.

The one he gave in the video is like a blue print of the one he gives in his class. The one from the class had a lot more real world examples that really drove the points home.
No sh*t it has changed the way I look at all aspects of my life.

He told us in the class that so many guys have started to miss speak about the lecture (which he made sure to say that he did not come up with on his own) that he wanted to get it out there in its true form.



There is nothing wrong with saying that hey this sh*ts not for me, just don't be the guy who heart is only half way into it. IMO before you every start carrying a gun, you really need to have your line in the sand.

fn/form
09-04-2013, 05:28 PM
There was a lot of good stuff there. The only part I didn't much care for was the example Defoor used when explaining his idea that one should 'Die well'. I understood him to imply I have some intrinsic duty to protect the lives of others. To me, my first duty is to protect my family, be a provider to them and be a father to my son. The lives of others are secondary to that. Rather than rush in (in his example), I would get my family to a safe area (assuming they were with me) and then call the police and be a good witness. Call that cowardice or callousness if you wish but I'm not a cop and I have no duty to protect the lives of others. Now, if the life of someone I love was at stake, it's a whole different ball game.

And I should add, I don't judge someone for viewing things as he does, I just have different priorities.

I understand where you are coming from. I agree that is our primary responsibility.

However, in the case of an active shooter, homicide bomber, or an armed person otherwise blocking escape--what if my family is there without me? A person acting on their behalf is a godsend.

I am going "in" if it's happening within my purview. I do it because you don't pull that kitty litter in my AO. I do it because of others who would do it for me if I wasn't there. BTDT.

Unless, of course, it's happening to a group that asks for it. Been There, Was Simply a Good Witness For That.