Silencer Questions...

[Dan_S]

OK, I'm finally in a position where I can seriously look at buying a .223 silencer, after wanting one for years.

Problem is, budgetary concerns prevent me from just buying a Surefire or Knights Armament can, so....


I'll try to outline exactly what me specific needs are, and then you can go from there in your advisement.

This can is going to go on a 16 inch Colt carbine. I'm not planning to swap the can from rifle to rifle - just put it on, and leave it on. The carbine will get fairly hard use, and will be carried regularly in vehicles and on foot, so I'm not wanting a can that I need to worry about loosening up on me if it gets beat on fairly regularly. Overall length added, weight added, etc, is not a primary concern for me, as much as getting a rock-solid can. I'm not eager to get into expensive proprietary mounting systems, so hence my interest in a thread-on can (that I would probably loctite so the can wouldn't spin off, if need be) but if I need to reconsider my take on that, to get into a really rugged can, so be it. Basically, I want something that is simple, and rugged.

I'm not expecting hollywood-level quietness out of the can - I do have some passing experience with cans in the past, but not nearly enough to base the purchase of a can on, but I'm pretty realistic about how quiet (or not) the can will be...

As of right now, I have been looking at the Gemtech Trek (the AAC Ranger 3 seems to be unobtainium, and I can't seem to track down a Ranger 2) or possibly a Gemtech HALO, so that you have some idea what I've been looking at.

I do not plan on, nor is it even possible for me, financially, to simply buy a can, try it for a while, and then get somethign better in a year or so if I don't like it, so I'm wanting to make sure I get something decent the first time around.

Thanks in advance!

[JodyH]

I have both the Trek and the Ranger-2 and either one will meet your needs.
I use a stainless Nord-Lock washer to keep them from backing off.

[Dan_S]

I have both the Trek and the Ranger-2 and either one will meet your needs.
I use a stainless Nord-Lock washer to keep them from backing off.

I'll check into the nord-lock washer solution. Thanks!

As far as the differences between the Trek and Ranger 2 - if you were to select one, which one would you choose (if either one has an edge over the other) and why?

Thanks again!

[JodyH]

There is no real difference between the two, so i'd buy whichever was available and cheaper at the time.

[Dan_S]

There is no real difference between the two, so i'd buy whichever was available and cheaper at the time.

Perfect. Thanks.

[Clusterfrack]

A thread-on can is a good way to go if you plan on keeping it mounted most of the time, and may save a small amount of weight too. One advantage of a QD/brake is that it will vent gas to the side and reduce erosion of the first couple of baffles. So for a very high round count gun, you might save $ in the long run.

The Halo is ridiculously kittening heavy. I can't recommend it unless you are huge and like swinging around heavy things on the end of your gun.

[JFK]

I really like these guys. Worth a look. I have a BA30 I use on my Colt, and on my 6.5 Creed. Supper cool.

Thunderbeast Arms (http://thunderbeastarms.com/products/)

[Clusterfrack]

I really like these guys. Worth a look. I have a BA30 I use on my Colt, and on my 6.5 Creed. Supper cool.

Thunderbeast Arms (http://thunderbeastarms.com/products/)

Agree. I have a 30P-1. The TBAC 223A looks good. But costwise they're not that much cheaper than a SF Mini.

[Dan_S]

-edit-

[Dan_S]

Agree. I have a 30P-1. The TBAC 223A looks good. But costwise they're not that much cheaper than a SF Mini.

Looking over the Thunderbeast can, I'm not sure what sets it apart with say, for example, a Gemtech Trek.

The specifications list is pretty vague, so for someone like me, that isn't really sure what they're looking at anyway it is pretty confusing as to what would make the TBAC 223A a better choice than the Gemtech Trek (which is looking like a pretty good option to me right now, at $550 instead of $950...)

If there's that much of a difference in quality, I don't mind waiting a few extra months until I can get the extra cash for the more expensive can, but realistically, what makes it worth the extra $400....?

[Clusterfrack]

Dan--I haven't had one of the TBAC 223 cans in hand but if they're built like the big 30P1, the quality and precision will be superb. But really who cares about that in a can for a fighting AR? I just want a durable can that has a repeatable POI shift.

I have a SF Mini that I paid $1050 for, not counting the QD mounts, and would choose it over a TBAC 223.

Those Gemtech cans look good and seem to get good reviews. Have you asked on M4carbine forum?

[Dan_S]

Dan--I haven't had one of the TBAC 223 cans in hand but if they're built like the big 30P1, the quality and precision will be superb. But really who cares about that in a can for a fighting AR? I want a durable can that has a repeatable POI shift.

I have a SF Mini that I paid $1050 for, not counting the QD mounts, and would choose it over a TBAC 223.

Those Gemtech cans look good and seem to get good reviews. Have you asked on M4carbine forum?

No, I try to limit my asking for advice on forums to a bare minimum.... :o

I guess basically, what I was trying to ask would be better worded in this way: would something such as the Surefire or TBAC realistically be more rugged than the Gemtech? I know it is an oversimplification, but....it's all inconel and stainless steel, so what sets one apart from the next...? Does it really matter that much if one is "fully welded" and the other is "fusion welded"?

All I'm after is a can that'll last me for the next few years of pretty hard use - not bragging points for what can I do or do not have....

[Clusterfrack]

My understanding and experience suggests that the mount is often a weak link. Eg AAC has changed their QD design multiple times because of problems with inconsistent POI shift. Also some manufacturers claim that their designs may prevent a baffle strike from exiting the side of the can (and possible hitting someone). As well there's the claimed dB reduction, and that varies depending on who does the testing. I don't care that much personally about it, as long as I can fire without earpro.

So, what are you paying for in say a SF over a Trek? The mount, maybe a debatable safety feature, and a company that's got a pretty good CS record and a lot of gear in use by mil operators. Is it worth $500? If you don't need a QD mount, probably not. Will a brake/QD mount double the service life of a can over a thread-on? Good question. I'm not sure, but for a 14-16" barrel I doubt it. SBR? Maybe?

I'm not sure about how much of a difference the welding makes. Gemtech has a solid rep, and I wouldn't hesitate to buy one of their cans.

[Dan_S]

My understanding and experience suggests that the mount is often a weak link. Eg AAC has changed their QD design multiple times because of problems with inconsistent POI shift. Also some manufacturers claim that their designs may prevent a baffle strike from exiting the side of the can (and possible hitting someone). As well there's the claimed dB reduction, and that varies depending on who does the testing. I don't care that much personally about it, as long as I can fire without earpro.

So, what are you paying for in say a SF over a Trek? The mount, maybe a debatable safety feature, and a company that's got a pretty good CS record and a lot of gear in use by mil operators. Is it worth $500? If you don't need a QD mount, probably not. Will a brake/QD mount double the service life of a can over a thread-on? Good question. I'm not sure, but for a 14-16" barrel I doubt it. SBR? Maybe?

I'm not sure about how much of a difference the welding makes. Gemtech has a solid rep, and I wouldn't hesitate to buy one of their cans.


Cool. Thanks for your input. I'm not sure how much I'm overthinking this, but, I guess I am to some degree.... ;)

[JodyH]

I've run my Ranger 2 hard on a 10.5" for 2 years now with no appreciable blast baffle erosion.
If you can afford the ammo to wear one out, you can afford to buy a spare.

[Odin Bravo One]

I have four GemTech suppressors, and reps from AAC, AWC, Sure-Fire, KAC, and Ops Inc.

I like direct thread on for guns that don't/won't see duty in both suppressed/un-suppressed modes.

QD's with muzzle brakes/flash hiders are good if you need/want to go between suppressed and un-suppressed regularly.

Every single manufacturer has had issues with their suppressors, mounts, brakes, flash hiders, whatever. Most have turned in some good examples of quality sound suppressors. All claim certain amounts of reduction, but there is no standardized formula or method of measurement. Meaning they can claim pretty much whatever they want. I have more GemTech's than any others because the dealer price on them is really hard to beat.

[Dan_S]

Going to go try out a Trek-T early next week. Figured since I have the opportunity, I'd go shoot that one before I buy one....

[Zhurdan]

All I'll say is this... You saaaaaay you don't want to put it on another gun... but..... You will. Suppressors are more addictive than crack. Options are always worth the extra coin, in my opinion. Glad I went with something versatile the first time.

Gemtech G5. Works on three of my rifles.

[Dan_S]

All I'll say is this... You saaaaaay you don't want to put it on another gun... but..... You will. Suppressors are more addictive than crack. Options are always worth the extra coin, in my opinion. Glad I went with something versatile the first time.

Gemtech G5. Works on three of my rifles.

Thanks. Just what I need is another addiction that I can't afford. :)

I seriously won't be swapping this can around, believe it or not. I totally get what you are saying though, and if money weren't so tight right now, I'd totally get something a little more easily swappable (and probably a .308 can at that, so I could use it on my .243 as well).

[Odin Bravo One]

I run my AAC with the T51 Ratchet flash hider on all but one of my 5.56 rifles. My precision 556 is set up for the Ops Inc. I run a GemTech Sandstorm Ti .30 cal suppressor on my .300 Win Mag precision rifle, and both of my .300 BLK's. I get a lot more versatility out of the suppressors by being able to mount to a variety of host weapons.

The T51 is obviously a very simple QD method. The Ops Inc is even simpler, just screwing on over an externally threaded muzzle brake. But the Sandstorm is a direct thread on suppressor, and I don't have any issues with any of the three hosts, or mounting it. No, I don't have a brake or flash hider, but I have the option of shooting suppressed, and it's not like I can shoot all three rifles at the same time.

I get that money is tight, but I'd advise against giving into the "Right Now" impulses and urges. You are limiting yourself to what you can afford right now, and having watched many folks go down the same road, I know that it generally ends up in a little town called "Disappointment". They usually gas up, and turn around to head down the road they should have taken in the first place, where selecting the right tool/toy to meet the objective(s), not necessarily the budget of what was in the wallet at that moment. If ever there was a time to buy once, buy right, cry once.........this is it.

[Dan_S]

If ever there was a time to buy once, buy right, cry once.........this is it.

Very well, and I agree. Hence, why I started this thread.

One can, for a 5.56 carbine that'll see heavy use - what is your recommendation?

Since I really don't have a need for swapping the can out to a bunch of rifles, the QD feature seemed like yet another potential point of failure that I don't need...

I'm actually willing to wait a while until I can put the cash together for a high quality can, but, I don't want to spend extra money to get features that add complication for features that I won't use (such as, swapping the can to different rifles).

Realistically, this can is going on one carbine, and staying on that carbine until it gets shot out. Given those parameters, what should I be looking at, disregarding the cost aspect?

Thanks for your input - it is much appreciated.

[DocGKR]

Because of the bureaucratic, illogical, asinine nanny state I live in I have no experience at purchasing individual cans; on the other hand I've had the opportunity to deal with agency purchases of multiple suppressors. Based on this, I would strongly recommend sticking with vendors that have proven track records and good reputations with demanding end-users. We have had very good experiences with Sure-Fire, Gemtech, and Ops Inc.

[Josh Runkle]

One option you might look into is someone who will let you start your paperwork while your item is on layaway. Several shops in Ohio will let you do that, and request that 10-30% be paid to start paperwork and that the rest be paid off by the time the paperwork comes back. The current wait time (as of last week) is 3 months to go pending and nine months from pending to approval. In essence, you have a full year now before you can pick up your item. Why not buy the absolute best, make a down payment, start the paperwork and then pay off the rest as you wait for the next year?

[LittleLebowski]

One option you might look into is someone who will let you start your paperwork while your item is on layaway. Several shops in Ohio will let you do that, and request that 10-30% be paid to start paperwork and that the rest be paid off by the time the paperwork comes back. The current wait time (as of last week) is 3 months to go pending and nine months from pending to approval. In essence, you have a full year now before you can pick up your item. Why not buy the absolute best, make a down payment, start the paperwork and then pay off the rest as you wait for the next year?

Oh man, that would be like crack.

[Josh Runkle]

Oh man, that would be like crack.

It is. Ask me how I know ;)

[Josh Runkle]

It is. Ask me how I know ;)

Clarification: I know things about addictions to buying lots of silencers, not addictions to crack :)

[littlejerry]

With all of the discussion around durability I'm now curious:

What is the expected life of a quality 5.56 can? Does barrel length have a major impact?

[Dan_S]

One option you might look into is someone who will let you start your paperwork while your item is on layaway. Several shops in Ohio will let you do that, and request that 10-30% be paid to start paperwork and that the rest be paid off by the time the paperwork comes back. The current wait time (as of last week) is 3 months to go pending and nine months from pending to approval. In essence, you have a full year now before you can pick up your item. Why not buy the absolute best, make a down payment, start the paperwork and then pay off the rest as you wait for the next year?

It isn't that I don't have the money. I *could* go buy whatever can I want, right now. The issue is that I *shouldn't* spend that money on a can, now, later, or ever, so paying off a can versus buying one right now is a non-issue for me.

The issue is that I'm not interested in spending extra money to get the Q/D feature, when I really don't ever forsee taking the can off the host rifle, much less switching it around, etc, and from my perspective, the more parts you have, the more likely at least one of them is to fail, so I don't see what makes a Q/D can the "absolute best", unless the can itself is made better, which is what I'm trying (unsuccesfully, it seems) to ascertain.

I want a rock solid can, with good durability, and that is suitable for real-world use, rather than a "hobby" grade item. That's it. If I have to go to a Q/D mounting system, in order to get into a good can, then that is what I have to do, but I'm not interested in a can for the purpose of having the Q/D. The purpose of my starting the thread, was to find out from those with more experience than myself, what they would recommend as a good rock solid can, and, from there, if I need to get a q/d mounting can, in order to get a high quality can.

[DocGKR]

Have you called the manufacturers?

Pretty much any suppressor we've seen from Sure-Fire, Ops Inc, or Gemtech has proven to be high quality and durable...

[Dan_S]

Have you called the manufacturers?

Pretty much any suppressor we've seen from Sure-Fire, Ops Inc, or Gemtech has proven to be high quality and durable...

I talked to a friend of mine (he's a gun nut, and has a very solid background as an engineer and machinist) for several years about this very issue, but his take is from the design perspective, rather than actual experience with cans, so as you can imagine, that doesn't tell me much about what I want, as the stupid guy that just wants to put the thing on the end of his gun barrel, and use it... The various "316" stainless, "fusion welded", "inconel", and other manufacturing gibberish tells me nothing.

Realistically, I don't understand what I'm looking at in terms of cans, hence my apprehensiveness about purchasing something of which I'm completely basing my choices upon advice received from people that have actually used cans in practical environments. Given that, when Sean_M and you drop "hints", I'm apt to sit up and take notice, but at the same time, I want to make sure that it's understood what my precise concerns are, and if those concerns have any merit or not.

[BWT]

It isn't that I don't have the money. I *could* go buy whatever can I want, right now. The issue is that I *shouldn't* spend that money on a can, now, later, or ever, so paying off a can versus buying one right now is a non-issue for me.

The issue is that I'm not interested in spending extra money to get the Q/D feature, when I really don't ever forsee taking the can off the host rifle, much less switching it around, etc, and from my perspective, the more parts you have, the more likely at least one of them is to fail, so I don't see what makes a Q/D can the "absolute best", unless the can itself is made better, which is what I'm trying (unsuccesfully, it seems) to ascertain.

I want a rock solid can, with good durability, and that is suitable for real-world use, rather than a "hobby" grade item. That's it. If I have to go to a Q/D mounting system, in order to get into a good can, then that is what I have to do, but I'm not interested in a can for the purpose of having the Q/D. The purpose of my starting the thread, was to find out from those with more experience than myself, what they would recommend as a good rock solid can, and, from there, if I need to get a q/d mounting can, in order to get a high quality can.

Your options for not having QD are, thread on and integral. If you don't find an integral you want, you will have problems. I would not recommend Thread on, because if real world use means high volumes of fire, silencers contain explosions, rifle cans contain larger explosions.

The problem is on rifles there is more shock and vibration to the suppressor. There is also a lot more heat. The excess pressure is conducive to that suppressor coming loose. Which is conducive to that suppressor getting struck by projectiles leaving the gun. That high heat is conducive (Quick search of google found an article http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=20&t=205449) to burning the crap out of yourself. So if you don't want to burn yourself checking if a rifle can has come loose (they do), or you don't want to shoot your silencer because it came loose and you didn't want to touch it.

Buy QD. There's a reason all military silencers are pretty much QD.

A rule of thumb seems that a rifle silencer on an AR-15 gains about 7 degrees Fahrenheit per shot above ambient temperatures. This is true to a point and that number is ball park, I'd say expect a suppressor to be about 250-300 degrees after a 30 round magazine fired quickly.

I'd say thread on for precision bolt action guns. But QD for everything else.

ETA: I read your first post. 2 magazines through a rifle can and it will be hot enough to melt Loctite, which in turn means loose, which means bad news.

[BWT]

AAAAAARRRRGHHH!!!! Stupid 30 minute delay ate my ETA 2.

So here goes... again.

I would probably recommend Surefire, because typically they're lighter. On the More durable end of the spectrum, they have less POI/POA shift typically in mounted versus unmounted, they're typically smaller. (ETA 2:They're typically quieter.) The downside is they're more expensive.

The evolution of Fully welded is this.

Baffles are stacked and inserted into a tube with endcaps. This is how it all started, and with Rifles since they contain much higher pressures, and higher temps they are built differently. They need to be. The tendency of a rifle can is to eventually pull itself apart. So they started by pinning baffles together (Gemtech G5) to increase strength, then they started spot welding baffles together (Ops Inc. and Early Surefire cans), then they started fully welding baffles together (AAC, KAC and later surefire, IIRC). This is the latest iteration. They also fully weld the endcaps on AAC Silencers, others are the same or one piece of steel machined endcap.

Inconel is a treated steel. You'll notice it's not on the periodic table. You'll see mostly steels and inconel used. (I'd imagine Inconel is a hybrid steel or a steel with a higher than normal nickel content to withstand the heat, etc, experienced). Titanium and Aluminum are also used periodically. Titanium is durable enough, but it can't withstand the higher temperatures as well as steel. AAC and KAC are mostly Inconel IIRC.

The other element to rifle silencers is, because they run at higher heats and higher temps, they shoot metal particulates as well as things like unburnt powder at the baffle stack, this operates like an abrasive. Such as bead blasting, that will erode the initial baffle as well as the others beyond it eventually.

I have other thoughts, I'll share those later.

Here's one piece of advise I would absolutely give you. There is virtually no re-sale market for Silencer specifically, without losing your butt. You are stuck with what you buy, and as long as you wait and as stuck as you will be by price. I'd say buy a higher end model. Save longer, heck it's worth it, learn more, get your hands on a suppressor.

Have you been around one firing yet, just to get a realistic idea of what to expect?

There are more things to consider, and more I will contribute later.

ETA: I'll list the downsides to rifle silencers later.

[Dan_S]

BWT - Thanks for your thoughts.

For the purpose of this post, I'll assume that a thread-on can is a bad idea, based upon what you outlined, so, I need to reconsider, and look at cans that have the Q/D mounting feature. Fine.

Now, I've never been able to use Q/D cans, or even have one in my hands for that matter, so... Which manufacturers mounts and cans are the most "bombproof" in your experience? I've read online, of issues with AAC's mounts. Is that actually an issue? I've been told of issues with Surefire's cans, because the engineer friend that was telling me this, believes firmly that Surefire's baffles are to thin, and won't hold up to hard use. In my attempt to research cans on my own, I've never been able to make heads or tales of various "reviews" found online, so when I read about how Gemtech lied about how their cans were held together (something about roll pins instead of welding) it makes me a little leery of what I can believe, and what I can't... Information overload, coming right up....




Edited to add - just saw your second post, which brings up a couple other points.

Yes, I've had the chance to use suppressors in the past, so I've got a clear idea of how quiet (or not) the can will be.
I only know one person that has a .223 rifle can, so shooting several different cans is simply not going to happen for me, unfortunately.

[Clusterfrack]

Great comments from BWT. Yes, suppressors get hot. I recently saw a guy's bag start smoking and melt because he stowed his AR before the can was cool enough. Gloves should be enough to tighten a can periodically, but for an AR I would choose a good QD can any day.

(As you read the following, note that I own a SF Mini). Based on my experience, and what I've heard many many people say, SF cans are good to go for hard use. I don't know anyone who would choose a AAC over SF unless 1) money was a concern, or 2) they were already committed to AAC mounts on multiple guns. I have had excellent, fast customer service from SF. My friend, who had major problems with his .308 AAC QD can said... um... let's say "less nice" things about AAC's CS. Nearly 12 months later, he still does not have a replacement can.

I have not heard that SF cans are less durable than competing models, and actually to the contrary. See this (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1398260) thread.

The new SOCOM cans are even more expensive than the last generation of SFs, and I'm glad I was able to buy my (non SOCOM) Mini before the price increase. The difference is a new precision mounting system that appears to be most important for the large sniper-oriented cans. I wonder if there are good deals to be had on the non-SOCOM SF cans?

Another thing I like about SF is their brake/QD mount. Colt uses them on their 3 Gun ARs just because they're really good muzzle brakes. (Not so good to be next to though.)

[Default.mp3]

The new SOCOM cans are even more expensive than the last generation of SFs, and I'm glad I was able to buy my (non SOCOM) Mini before the price increase. The difference is a new precision mounting system that appears to be most important for the large sniper-oriented cans. I wonder if there are good deals to be had on the non-SOCOM SF cans?
One of the Surefire military reps (Chuck Vlasek) has stated that the new SOCOM suppressors are (suppose to be) cheaper than the old ones. Not sure how true that is on the actual market, though; I purchased mine for 1157 USD. Surefire also offers a military discount.

[LittleLebowski]

One of the Surefire military reps (Chuck Vlasek) has stated that the new SOCOM suppressors are (suppose to be) cheaper than the old ones. Not sure how true that is on the actual market, though; I purchased mine for 1157 USD. Surefire also offers a military discount.

I have dirt on Vlasek......need to ping him :D

[Dan_S]

OK, thanks for the further comments and suggestions.

BWT - if you have any other thoughts or suggestions for me, I'd be greatly appreciative!


If I'm going to go with the Surefire can, which model should I be looking at? The SOCOM models, the Minis, the "legacy" models...???

[BWT]

Time for more input.

I'm sorry I've been flakey, I've been out trying to get married and it consumes my time. When I'm not there, I'm at work.

I wrote about a 5,000 word document for a friend explaining suppressors and benefits, pro's cons, if you'd like that too, I can see if I can't find it. (I found it, and ironically, I was late getting back to him as well).

Continued,

The downsides of rifle suppressors are this, it's going to increase heat, it's going to speed up your cyclic rate, by approximately 20-30%. You may need to get a heavier buffer in an AR-15, maybe a heavier action spring.

ETA: It's going to get dirtier faster because of the increased back pressure and higher heats burning off lubricant.

There's even a theory out there I've heard that it will damage accuracy long term (Now listen for a second before you cry foul anyone), of it increasing fowling in the barrel, thus expediting wear in rifles, hypothetically. Now I don't know anyone that's tested this thoroughly, just the observation of a friend that shoots suppressed a lot, that I trust his judgement.

It's going to increase the back pressure into the gun. You're going to get particulate blown back into the gun, the higher heats will burn off lubricant faster. This is universal with all suppressors, this image by Fireman1291 is very telling of what's going on with the containment of the muzzle blast from the pistol. It literally will go back into the gun, you can see excess gas coming out of the base plate of the magazine.

http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i356/Firefighter1291/ScreenShot2013-03-23at104720AM2_zps4833026a.png

http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=127&t=62274&start=150

The supersonic crack from rifles can be substantial. The blow back to the shooter from the ejection port, can be substantial, or around the charging handle into the eyes of the shooter. My first experience firing a suppressed AR-15 my eyes were watering. I shot an M4-2000 Mod 08. Now, there's an emerging school of thought in the tactical community to help with this. If you're wondering why shorty cans are catching on (they're louder, one would think why would you want it?), it's because even though they're not as quiet as longer suppressors, they produce less back pressure, and let ejection port noise. I've partaken in silencer testing myself and the way they are metered is from the muzzle of the weapon 1 meter infront, one 1 meter to the right and 1 meter to the left, at what height. I forget, it was awhile ago. The significance is, it is in some ways less abusive to the gun and (reports vary, sound is also a lot of perception, people also have spent a lot of money which also may affect their perception. Hahaha) the shooter, because there is less containment of the muzzle blast, thus, less pressure back into the gun.

Now, since you asked about silencers, I'm going to give you the following 5,089 word document I wrote for a co-worker, some is specific to him, but, it is somewhat insightful. I truly hope this helps. Without further ado. I will also say, some of this information has changed, I wrote this in August of 2012, this was a year ago.

Suppressor Recommendations
- Intro –
I’m going to start by writing about a few generalities, just kind of give you an idea of how things are, why they are that way and how they were, in correlation to features. Maybe do a few pro’s and con’s and dive into it. I’m going to interlace information throughout this, some just general principles and some just segmented topics. I’m going to try to organize this logically, but I also realize, there’s tons of information, and I’m just going to kind of throw it in as I go. It’d fail in an English class, but, I’ll try to be concise and informative. I’m also way past what I quoted you and I feel that that’s discourteous. I made the distinction to Rifle Suppressors, because, that’s what I believe you’re shopping for, not all principles of suppressors are universal to rimfire, pistol and rifle suppressors they’re three different animals. In fact, I think I’ll jump in on that.
- Side note – There are three types of silencers as far as how they mate with the gun, there are integral, (MP5 SD, Thompson machine has a few models, Wellrod pistol) that are built into the gun itself. There are thread on, which thread to the gun’s barrel and there are mounts that are attached to barrels.
Rimfire Suppressors
Typically this is the best silencer on the market, in my opinion you get the true silencer experience. It sounds like a paintball gun if on the right host and the right suppressor.

- To address something you said about the phrase “It’s like a car muffler, do you clean it.”, that terminology has been used to dismiss the value of diassembling a silencer, that being said, some silencers do that well, and frankly with Rifles, I would say the technology as we stand as of today, is No. I’m not the end-all expert, so, take the recommendation into consideration, but also realize, silencers are radically improving technology, a lot like computers, in that what’s best today isn’t going to always be best for very long, and for that… I’m truly sorry, hahaha, but that’s what I try to explain to people so they don’t feel like when they’re buying a product, especially a high end one, that they’ve bought the exclusive rights on the “Best”, you buy the best for what you want to do, because truthfully, it’s still a storming and forming technology in *many* ways.

As a side note, There is a company Liberty Suppressors that may have some truly innovative rifle suppressors, I’d have to look at them, but, they’re thread on and a generality, with rifle suppressors, I would go with a Fast-Attach, you also mentioned a possible break/suppressor combination, and I’d recommend that In Handguns and Rimfire suppressors, I would say, Yes.
Back to Rimfire technology, One of the absolute knock-out greatest innovations of suppressors in the last 5 years was the SWR Specter, it is a Stainless Steel thread on suppressor, that you could disassemble and clean. Now, there’s multiple methods to clean a suppressor, there’s abrasive material such as bead blasting, but you need a cabinet and if you’re too aggressive you could very easily damage your very very controlled and hard to obtain suppressor’s performance. So I avoid that.

There’s also different mixtures you can try of solvents that some people use, google suppressors and “the dip” Here’s the downside, it’s extremely toxic, you’re using high powered solvents to taken massive deposits of lead off of steel.
My preferred methodology if I were to clean a suppressor would be an Ultrasonic cleaner, the downside (and there’s no free lunch) to Ultrasonic cleaners are that you have different materials that suppressors are made of, different metals. Such as Titanium, Aluminum, Steel and the infamous “Inconel” (Read, certain type of steel with a type of heat treating/finish, but it’s been heavily marketed as a selling point for Knights Armament and Advance Armament in their rifle suppressors for years, it is not on the periodic table) But, the downside with ultrasonic cleaners is Titanium and Aluminum will experience cavitation, the metal will be damaged by the vibration. It is basically just water and soap and an ultrasonic cleaner that vibrates the unburnt powder, etc from the metal. (which there is a *ton* of in rimfire cartridges, by the way, while I’m talking about it, do not shoot in my opinion, rimfire cartridges through your rifle suppressors, you will fill it with crud and strongly diminish your rifle suppressor’s performance). It’s the least toxic, the least risk to your highly restricted item, and the easiest to do, read, water, soap, and 15 minutes of letting a machine run, empty the water, rinse and repeat.
The downside of Ultrasonic cleaners is you will have to go towards stainless steel or other materials (again I’m not certain of all materials that will experience cavitation, but I know steel is not one of them). Stainless steel suppressors are heavier, facts of life, again, no free lunch. But not heavy enough that I’d worry about it.

- There’s been a few major innovations in the last few years. The Specter was one of the biggest innovations because it was a take apart rimfire can, that could withstand .22 LR, .22 WMR, .17 HMR, they even (much to SWR’s serious regret) threw it on the end of a 10’’ HK416 and ran 5 shots through it, to show it’s extreme durability, and then they spent a few years explaining very very intensely that it was not rated for .223 and it was for *testing* purposes only to demonstrate the strength of the design.

- The SWR Specter, utilizes Omega Baffles, these are shaped like a Cup, and they stack upon one another. It was also a take apart suppressor that had great Decibel reduction number. The old school of thought was, well, yeah, it’s take apart, but it’s a loud silencer it serves me no good, you can’t have your cake and eat it anymore. Well, it’s not the 80’s or 90’s anymore, those days are gone.

- The next layer of innovation was probably the monocore. Where as usually you might see K, Omega, or M baffles in most designs, this is a complete tube, cut from one cylinder piece of steel . We saw this with the AAC Prodigy, it was innovative for certain, even though they had to release a 2nd core (because, honestly, some suppressors suppress well on pistols and some only suppress well on rifles, the first core, only suppressed well on rifles, and frankly, not better than the SWR Spectre, but, it was still fairly successful.)

- This leads us to where the technology has plateaued currently in Rimfire Suppressor technology. The Sparrow, you hear the word “Game Changer” so regularly as a buzz-word, but, truthfully, the Specter and the Sparrow (Silencerco who designed the sparrow, just acquired SWR, as a side note), are the most innovative silencers of the last 5 years in my opinion.

- The Sparrow is a monocore design, big whoop, so is the Prodigy, but, here’s where they changed, they put that core in metal sleeves. What you don’t hear about from a salesman pitching the other designs is this. The .22 LR is a dirty round, they’ll look at you and go “Duh.”, however, this also makes the take apart silencers extremely hard to take apart after a certain round count, say 500 rounds of filthy .22 LR, you have to get a removal tool for the SWR Specter, or, as Advanced Armament recommends with the Prodigy, quit shooting it, and take the time to rotate the monocore in the tube so that it will not become stuck in place, I’m not willing to pay what the Prodigy costs and wait the time it takes for that level of performance, period.

- The sleeves contained all of that debris/un burnt powder, etc, inside the suppressor core itself, so you have the tube, the sleeves, end caps and the core. It slides out with as much ease as when it’s factory new on the sales floor, or whether it’s had 5,000 rounds through it. You don’t have to fight the suppressor to get it apart, or use some kind of tool and force the thing apart in some fashion (and frankly, possibly damage it). Silencerco updated the design because it was originally Aluminum, to Stainless Steel, they also improved the shape of the core to optimize it for decibel reduction. There is one other comparable design in my opinion and that’s the Gemtech Alpine in Stainless Steel, natively it’s offered in Aluminum, but it uses a series of stackable baffles, that interlock, and contain the fowling.

- The downsides of stainless steel is they’re slightly heavier, but to me, for the durability of it, the performance, ease of cleaning, etc, I put a premium on that above weight savings of let’s just say comparatively 15-20%.

Pistol Silencers
- Almost all pistol silencers are thread on, I would say the technology is mature enough that we’re beginning to see the improvement to cans that are advancing towards take apart. I’d imagine some day, we will see it in Rifles, but, I just don’t think personally that the performance is there yet.

- These are usually designs with a booster. What a booster does, is absorb some gas to propel the gun open, because normally shooting a center-fire pistol, it’s using a browning action, where the barrel tips up and towards the rear to eject the round, and tips the barrel down to assist in feeding the next cartridge. Most handguns (except say the P7, or most .22 LR pistols) have a fixed barrel, rely on that method of feeding. The reason the booster is there, is because, the guns weren’t designed to operate with a half pound (or more) of metal sitting on the tip of the barrel. A side note, not all pistols are created equal and not all pistols are warranted for suppressor usage, you will see different wear issues because most designs aren’t engineered to be suppressed. Some handle it well, some don’t.

- You see mostly K-Baffle or Monocore pistol designs, K baffles are designed as the name implies, they stack on one another inside the tube, and are shaped in a K shape.

- Suppressors work by basically expansion chambers and containing the explosion of the gas as it propels the projectile, the downside is, on all guns (getting back to adverse wear conditions), the pressure increases, and it has to go somewhere, so you will have increased fowling of the gun, you will have faster cycle times, the guns will run hotter as well and it will cycle the gun harder, a gun that worked, may not work as well with a silencer, you’re changing a *ton* of variables. H&K will not warranty the usage of their pistols designed for suppressor usage except for certain silencers. Example, the Mark 23 Offensive Handgun used by Naval Special Warfare, is authorized for the Knights Armament .45 ACP silencer (Which, interesting side note, was the first hearing safe .45 ACP silencer, IMHO, it was not hearing safe and is not, I don’t know that I’d call anything above 125 dB hearing safe, and frankly I’d want a .22 LR silencer around 116-118 before I’d consider it even “pleasant” to shoot without hearing protection. If my ears are ringing at all, that’s hearing loss, sorry, hearing loss is cumulative. I’ve fired .300 Win Magnum without hearing protection and I could hear nothing well for the next few days, but I still hear fairly well at most pitches, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t permanently damage my hearing. Guys that work in production environments like automotive plants will probably never hear things at or above 130 dB (OSHA regulates that 140 dB is a hearing safe impulse noise for something like a firearm) but are stone deaf) and a B&T silencer, if you used something else, you voided the warranty of the gun.

- 9mm versus .45 ACP, now I’m going to tell you the truth, in my opinion, I’ve fired one of the state of the Art .45 ACP silencers. (There are currently 3 that I’m aware of .45 ACP, the KAC OHG Silencer, the Osprey and the AAC Tirant) I’ve fired the monocore designed Silencerco Osprey in .45 ACP, honestly, while doing a silencer testing with sound meters. I went and got hearing protection and put it on. It was uncomfortable for me, and I said No thank you, my dumb days are behind me.

- If I was looking for a pistol centerfire silencer, I would go 9mm, because there are plenty of affordable pistol caliber, easy to disassemble silencers, that are going to get a legitimately quiet combination with 147 grain projectiles. I believe the SWR Octane and Silencerco Osprey are great performers, the Octane would probably get the nod because I want something I can disassemble and clean. Cleaning is less of a premium in center fire cartridges because they’re inherently cleaner, and if you shoot jacketed bullets (by the way, an unjacketed lead CCI projectile will also leave lead deposits in your rimfire silencer).

Rifle Silencers
If there’s a segment of this write-up that’s the “… Go ahead and get a drink, grab a chair, and get comfortable and plan on not doing anything for awhile… and you thought women were complicated! … and that’s just the start!” part, this is it. Rifles are an entirely different animal, simply because, they operate at higher pressures, much, much higher pressures and velocities, this means a couple of things.
- One, Take-apart is not king in Rifle silencers, in fact, personally, I’d be skeptical of a takeapart rifle can from a durability standpoint. One of the greatest features you can find an Assault Rifle type rifle can, is that the baffles be welded together, fully welded, not spot welded, entire circumferentially welded to one another. One of the greatest selling points of the Advanced Armament line up is they’re a “Fully Welded Core”. I would say we’ve seen baffles stacked, we’ve seen baffles pinned, we’ve seen baffles spot welded, we’ve seen baffles fully welded. For the money you pay for a rifle silencer and mount (go ahead and say $1,500 to $2,000 once you include mounts, tax stamps, etc, etc, again depending on the silencer) A fully welded core, will hold together better than one that is not, and it’s paramount to keep this in mind while shopping. Truthfully, if you’re not going to be running it on an Machinegun or a short barreled rifle, it may not be as big a deal. But I’d say your buying a rifle suppressor for a life long investment, because, frankly, the resale value sucks, the resale market sucks as well because of the lengthy process it takes to get one, so go ahead and realize you’re buying for life, or at least a 50-60% loss.
- Two, they run at higher heat, and I’m not talking “oh that’s hot” I’m talking, if you put 60-90 rounds through it in less that 2 minutes, that suppressor will be around 800-1000 degrees, that is why you also want them to be made of very very durable materials, because of the extreme pressures and extreme heat. That’s also why again, I would probably avoid a take-apart rifle can, are there technologies I’m not aware of? Yes. Yes, there are, but there’s also things that will probably change in the next few years. But, I speak in generalities, and I still believe that’s the state of affairs.

- Back Pressure, this is an issue with all of the designs of silencers, getting back to what we were speaking on earlier. But, it’s exacerbated in rifles, the immediate notice is, one, increased cyclic rate, like the carrier/bolt speeds may increase to the point that your magazines aren’t presenting the rounds fast enough for the gun to cycle, not the case in all cases, but, again, there is an increase in the cyclic rate, most of the very recent designs have a switch block design or something similar to that in theory, that have a “suppressed” and “unsuppressed” setting, that will create a small gas port to constrict the gas flow back to the gun, to slow things down. That’s part one of the pressure issue, the functional issue. Part two of it is, you will have increased gas pressure coming out of the ejection port, might be another “No duh” moment, but, seriously, if you’re shooting a short-barreled rifle with the ejection port on the same side as your face, that’s suppressed, you’re going to get maced with high pressure and gas coming back in your face. The first silenced rifle I fired was a 16’’ Barreled Direct Impingement AR-15 with an AAC M4-2000 Mod 08, observations were, one, that’s really loud (It’s still almost state of the art, and more on that later), the second part was, tears were running down my face, from the gas hitting me my in my eyes, not tears of joy, though it was fun.
There’s a modification you can due to add material to inside of the charging handle to absorb that material, but even with that it’s bad. I was reminded of this, when I was firing a SCAR 16 with a 10’’ barrel and then a SCAR 17 with a 13’’ barrel, suppressed, and from that point I started shooting rifles left handed, coming to terms with the fact, I’m left eye dominant and I’m going to have to shoot rifles left handed. I literally had my mouth open, and caught a mouth full of just high pressured gas, being maced again, I remembered why I hate rifle suppressors. This is also my opinion, and I’m very opinionated, I’d seriously suggest you try shooting a suppressed rifle yourself.
The Third caveat, is it changes the recoil impulse, may be a big deal for you, may not, it makes it a much more jarring/jab feeling.

- Reflexive silencers versus traditional. This was an innovation that I believe started with Ops Inc in the 90’s and was in my opinion, taken first by AAC. (Disclaimer, AAC was/is one of the most profitable and wildly successful suppressor manufacturers in America. It was found by Kevin Brittingham, and culminated in him eventually selling it to Remington Defense) Almost all modern rifle silencers use this thought process, but it goes back to the 3rd, 10th and 12th models. They reflex back over the barrel, they would have a silencer that essentially suppressed a gun as well as a silencer of a comparable length, but it extends back over the barrel, but gave an overall shorter length. Ops inc would re-profile the barrel to have it attach at the threads at the muzzle and either have a collar back on the barrel itself that it rested the end of the silencer on, or profiled the barrel in such a way as to attach it to it there. The modern interpretation of that is a muzzle attachment that reflexes back over the barrel. AAC jumped on this with the M4-SPR, which also tried to address and dovetails into another issue with silencers.
- POI/POA shift. Something that’s a fact of life with Silencers is, there will usually be a POI/POA shift, now how drastic? Depends, honestly, depends on the gun, the barrel length, how the suppressor weight changes the barrel harmonics, how the slight increase in velocity (yes, there is a very mild increase in velocity in bullets from suppressors, it acts slightly like more of a barrel, you may pickup 10 to up to 50 feet per second velocity increase), how the baffle stack shape affects the bullet, the length of the bullet, many things. This is address in two ways with rifle silencers typically, one, the M4-SPR had a mounting system that ratcheted the silencer on the gun, and then you could switch it to different locations, it had 5 locations that it locked into, the thought process was, you can test it with your loads and figure out which one is closest to how you normally shoot and change it, this was the most radical method used to address it, I believe it’s discontinued though, so, it may not be used anymore. Two, most try to have the least impact by doing EDM’ing around the bore of the baffles, to keep the hole as true as possible, as consistent as possible and as controlled as possible. This is really the way it’s done just about everywhere, because I think they realized, one, a $1400 5.56mm suppressor, when most are $800-1000 is going to be harder to sell, but also, most people just mount the silencer and leave it mounted, and those numbers don’t really change. Also, if the baffle and bore, etc are all cut true, it’s going to be more consistent from suppressed to non-suppressed in two ways, one, it’ll have less change to the POI/POA to begin with, so you won’t have to go like 2-3 MOA to the left at 100 yards, it’ll be like 1-2 MOA shift, and two, it’ll be more consistent in how it performs from being mounted and un mounted, so if it goes 1 MOA to the bottom say, it’ll always go 1 MOA to the bottom, adjust accordingly, you don’t need a 5-position innovation to just change your sights, that 40-50% premium isn’t worth it to most shooters. (Including me)
- Supersonic/Subsonic, this one gets laughs. This one’s huge, when you’re trying to make a firearm quieter, reality is, a lot of the noise of a gunshot is the supersonic crack. You’ll hear the bullet passing, because it’s breaking the sound barrier. You know the “crack” of a whip? It’s not because the material makes that noise, it’s because the tip is moving so fast it breaks the sound barrier. You will experience something similar when firing a projectile travelling over about 1,000 feet per second, as you’re aware, 5.56mm travels about 3,000 FPS. (As a side note, when I was at the 2009 Silencershoot talking to Matt Pallet (at the time CEO of SWR) about the Specter, he stated that it’d probably best to get a 4.5’’ barrel on a .22 LR pistol because it would be sub-sonic with CCI Standard Velocity bullets more regularly) This is also why the .300 BLACK is so attractive, it’s a true rifle caliber, with projectiles available loaded at subsonic pressures, it’s definitely a neat idea. But, you pay a very high premium for subsonic loadings.
- Realistic expectations on sound reduction. This is where I break hearts, most state of the Art Rifle suppressors are in the mid to high 130’s in dB numbers. I’m going to say it, I truly don’t believe that most rifle suppressors are hearing safe, and for that, I’m sorry. That’s my impression, when I go away, and my ears are ringing and I can hear perceptibly (even though temporarily) less well from the loud noise. I’m not impressed, if it sounds like I’ve got water in my inner ears after shooting… that’s cumulative hearing loss, that’s calling a spade a spade, and I may not notice it, ever, but, it’s happening.
- .30 Caliber suppressors, Here’s another reality. 30 Caliber suppressors suppress smaller calibers like .223 Remington or .270 Winchester, that I would not buy a .223 or 5.56mm silencer. We’re talking 1-2 decibels difference, and they say to the human ear, that that’s imperceptible. To give you another insight on decibel readings, every 6 decibels, the sound is double. So 160 is loud, 170 is LOUD! I would say look at a suppressor that is adept enough such as the AAC 762-SDN-6, the new Silencerco Rifle suppressor or maybe an offering from Surefire.
- Fast Attach versus Thread-On. This gets back to pressure, silencers contain an explosion, simple enough, that explosion causes a vibration, that vibration may make that silencer begin to loosen, and when it becomes loose, you may have a baffle strike, meaning, the bullet hits the inside of the silencer, that could be a slight shinny part on the end cap, or that could be your suppressor tearing itself apart and throwing half of it down the range and throwing metal fragments (Another endorsement to wear eye protection when shooting, guns also explode by themselves at times when shooting, if a cartridge has received a double loading, it could destroy the gun and possibly injure the shooter.) in different directions. Thread-on suppressors are slightly quieter than Fast Attach, but, they come loose, I would say that fast attach methodologies are the way to go on an Assault rifle, if it’s a bolt action rifle and that’s all you ever plan on shooting it on, go thread-on, you won’t be rapid firing a 100 rounds anyway.
- Manufacturers.
- There are really, three manufacturers I would consider for your expected usage on an HK 417.
- I would consider Surefire, because, they have some of the absolute best stand alone muzzle breaks, their suppressors are some of the higher end models, you mentioned express interest in that, their fully welded, EDM’d, fast attach, light weight, durable and reliable, I would pursue what model you want and just kind of narrow it down from there.
- I would consider Silencerco/SWR, even though they only offer one rifle silencer right now through Silencerco and I believe they have a few offerings from SWR, what you’ll notice about what I’ve talked about innovation, it’s including this manufacturer a lot by name. They have done things, that people just have said are impossible, or just didn’t see, they are innovative, they are growing, and they are just an awesome all around company. Not only that, they also are very very pro-active in preserving your rights, and are actively trying to simplify the NFA process for acquisition of silencers, they are actively speaking with them on your behalf, and they have a non-profit legal action movement that they’ve started up to advocate suppressor ownership and usage. They also have one of the best reputations for Customer service, and I mean that seriously, probably the best of the manufacturers I’m going to recommend. SWR was legendary, Silencerco is Legendary, since Silencerco acquired SWR, they are both legendary, I would not hesitate to buy one of their products or to recommend one of their products, even if it did not meet expectation, they would certainly take care of you. They also offer a new mount that’s a forked flash hider that doesn’t ring like everybody else’s, they simply decided to cut the tines different lengths. Again, extremely innovative.

- Advanced Armament Corporation. This company is going through some changes, they’ve been acquired, their core values are really in my opinion to make money. (What business isn’t in business to be in business) But, their under new management, their under the Freedom Group, and frankly, I just don’t trust the company. I’ve never been a huge fan of Kevin Brittingham, he’s the CEO and founder of AAC, I’ve met him, and he does some great things like he used to host the Annual Silencer shoot. But, he was the kind of guy to start legal action with other companies on a pretty much regular basis, smear campaign his competition on a regular basis, and I’ve just never really liked that about them. He sold the company out for $40 Million, if I remember correctly, and he managed it until they lost the control with Special Operations Command for their suppressors and he was fired. Advanced Armament, isn’t the same company, and I don’t think their values are to take care of the individual user, more of pursue military contracts. The civilian market is more of an afterthought these days, and frankly, I just really don’t like the idea of being back burned. I’d say AAC and Surefire are similar in this, Surefire is aloof, they make quality stuff, but, they don’t have a great customer relationship history.

- Conclusion,
In all honesty, there’s a reason I pursued an AR-15 and not a .22 Caliber suppressor for my browning buckmark 2 years ago. I just don’t see the tremendous value in sound suppression technology currently. I truly do want a .22 LR pistol to silence, I do think that’s a worth while expenditure, but, it was literally ballparked as the same price as an entire rifle, approximately $1,200-1,400. While neat, it’s just not worth the price of admission in my book. I would advise you to handle stuff, get out see what you can and frankly, go and shoot them, and get an honest assessment for yourself. I’ve spent quite a bit of time researching this and talking about these things as a common interest over the years, but, I’m just not that impressed anymore. I’d want a Silencerco Sparrow these days.
I’d also recommend going the Trust route when pertaining to any NFA items. Such as silencers, the trust route is basically you form a revocable living trust and rather than just yourself being able to have access to an NFA item, your family also can have access or whoever you want to add to it can have access. What you’d have to complete is a Form 4, you’d have to send in a $200 check, money order or equivalent, and wait to take the item. James Firearms and Outdoors, does have a deal worked out with a local Lawyer to setup a trust that’d be appropriate for this function for I think $150. There’s literally a felony charge associated with having a suppressor without being approved, and it’s handled by the ATF directly. To me I’m just not comfortable with the idea of something that could put family members in violation with a federal branch of Law Enforcement.
I would say when shopping, compare (as I’m sure you will) prices to what’s online versus what’s in store, but, there’s also something to be said for what’s IN STOCK, I can’t unfortunately, tell you how many times people will buy a silencer from a dealer, the dealer not have it in stock, and there be months, sometimes years delay. That’s also why I’d stay with the major brands, and look for a stocking dealer.
All in all, again, sorry for the delay in response. Thanks, Brandon.

Some of these are generalities, some of it I'm repeating, but overall, it's a good summary.

If it's too much detail, just let me know.

God Bless,

Brandon.

[rob_s]

To summarize...

5.56 cans on ARs are generally a waste of money when attempting to apply any "need" or "use" logic because they are heavy, long, expensive, hot, dirty, create function/reliability issues and are not as quiet as people had hoped.

[BLR]

Every time I hear a suppressor guy say "back pressure" I itch all over.

That term is used to describe continuous flow, not a pressure impulse that outlasts the lock time in a firearm.

[BWT]

Every time I hear a suppressor guy say "back pressure" I itch all over.

That term is used to describe continuous flow, not a pressure impulse that outlasts the lock time in a firearm.

I'm not an engineer, so I apologize, what would you quantify it as? Is there a term?

I will add, that to a degree, I agree with Rob. However, I believe that .30 Caliber Suppressors and Short .223 Suppressors have done much to relieve the higher pressure symptoms of longer .223 Suppressors. ETA: You will lose Suppression levels though with the shorter Suppressor.

Also some people are fine with Suppressors. I emphasized a lot heavily to this guy about Suppressors, you will find a lot of people are pleased. I found it was not for me. I would recommend using ear pro with a .223 suppressor, I also felt the need to when I sound metered a Silencerco Osprey .45 ACP on a 5" 1911. Just my $.02, everyone's ears are different.

My Goal isn't to trash Suppressors, just to let you know genuinely what to expect.

[BLR]

I'm the one who should apologize. That was a somewhat assy statement by me.

Though I will note some things about suppressors - you are absolutely correct. They are not nearly as effective as many believe.

The technology would be very much more advanced if the use of good FEA software was used by some people that understood compressible gas flow near and above supersonic velocities. As it stands, there is a lot of trial and error development.

[JodyH]

I'll say that 5.56 suppressors are the best AR accessories I own. Especially for quick 2 or 3 round shootings like coyote hunting (or a defense shooting). While they aren't "hearing safe" they are considerably better than unsuppressed for those times when hearing pro is not available. There's also the huge benefit of very little to no muzzle flash or dirt/dust being raised by the muzzle blast. This is a big deal in dusty environments from prone.
Every AR I own is suppressed and I consider a can to be a necessity.

[Josh Runkle]

I run a KAC NT4 and SWR renegade on different guns.

My NT4 is on an 11.5" gun, and I shoot suppressed roughly...100% of the time.

Sound suppression was not at all a factor in purchasing a suppressor. With a triple-tap and NT4 combo, I seriously have the recoil of a 10/22. Flash suppression was reason #2. Faster follow up shots, less percussion indoors...there are numerous reasons to use a 5.56 suppressor...sound suppression is not really one of them.

From my understanding from buddies who do torture testing of that stuff...KAC and surefire are the strongest ones on the market. My NT4 is really heavy, though. AAC is slightly quieter, but many people hate the "ping", and while it has less POI shift and better repeat ability than most suppressors, it doesn't beat out KAC or surefire in those markets. My next 5.56 suppressor will be a surefire. It wins in nearly all categories, hands down. AAC simply has the best marketing.

I own several GemTech cans (none in 5.56), the quality is never top of the line. I have a buddy who I've shot a few vicker's classes with who runs a G5. I've shot it a bit, and while it's impressive, it's no AAC, KAC, Surefire, SWR or OPS INC. I'm really not a fan of the mounting system.

I would recommend top to bottom: Surefire, SWR, KAC, OPS INC, AAC, and then GemTech last. The awesome part is that while some are better than others, all of them are still pretty good.

[BWT]

I'm the one who should apologize. That was a somewhat assy statement by me.

Though I will note some things about suppressors - you are absolutely correct. They are not nearly as effective as many believe.

The technology would be very much more advanced if the use of good FEA software was used by some people that understood compressible gas flow near and above supersonic velocities. As it stands, there is a lot of trial and error development.

No harm no foul. ;) I try to give accurate info, and if I'm incorrect, please let me know.

I'll say this for the other two posts, silencers do have benefits in flash reduction, free-bore boost, concussion reduction, and sound reduction. ETA: And depending on the setup recoil impulse. (Either dampened, or possibly enhanced)

There's no free lunch however, as long as that is understood. I'd say go with what makes you happy. :cool:

The Legacy models of Surefire Suppressors are probably their Pre-SOCOM models. I might cruise into forums that have a lot of suppressor specific data and find input from a lot of users. There's a couple of people doing independent testing these days. That data is good to know as well.

[Odin Bravo One]

To summarize...

5.56 cans on ARs are generally a waste of money when attempting to apply any "need" or "use" logic because they are heavy, long, expensive, hot, dirty, create function/reliability issues and are not as quiet as people had hoped.

Perhaps.........for 99.999% of shooting, I'd probably tend to agree.

But we can apply that same argument to a wide variety of firearms and accessories, including the AR. "Most" owners don't have a "need", or "use" either. They are heavy, long, expensive, hot, dirty, have reliability and function issues (especially poorly assembled/low rent versions), and are not as quiet as people had hoped.

"Need" and "Use" are pretty irrelevant as to the "why".

Right up until a true need to use is present.

It's a far cry to expect someone will "need" to "use" a suppressed AR. But statistically, it is also unlikely the vast majority of LEO in this country will ever have to use their duty weapons, and even more unlikely for a non-LEO citizen to have a "need" to/or "use" a firearm.

I don't carry a CHL and pistol because I expect to "need" it, or have "use" for it. I do it in case the unfortunate circumstances devolve to the point that I do. Same for suppressors. I truly shudder to think of a scenario where the "need" or a "use" for a suppressor might arise, but I'll be glad I have it if ever it does. Proper employment of a suppressed 556 AR has very real and very distinct advantages.

[Al T.]

Couple of my buddies have cans from Innovative Arms and I'm waiting on ATF for approval (.22LR can). I don't have much experience, but I've been impressed with the ones I've fired, to include the W.A.R. upper.

http://bfmn5h3ucs.site.aplus.net/innovativearms/id24.html

[Odin Bravo One]

I love my .22 cans........I can shoot into my bullet trap in the garage at 0200 and no one is any the wiser. Newest fireteam member got a SS/RealTree Chipmunk single shot for his birthday present (maybe a little early at 4 days old, but hey.....never know when he will be ready. His schedule, not mine). Buddy threaded it for me so we can attach one of the .22 suppressors. Keeping ear pro on a post-toddler or little person is virtually impossible. At that age, even a .22 is not safe for his long term ear health. No need to worry what he decides to do with muffs or plugs with the suppressor.

One suppressor I have not had a whole lot of love for is my GemTech 17 HMR suppressor. Quality is fine. Construction is fine. Materials are fine. Fit - fine. Reduction..........not so much. Very little perceptible noise reduction, and since the varmints are not likely to PID my FPF and return fire or CFF-IDF, I'm not concerned about muzzle flash. I think I went in with higher than I should have expectations, and was(am) disappointed with the results. For the cost, tax, wait, and extra paperwork effort, I would say I "Chose poorly". Certainly the MV has some do with it, but I get a "little" bit of MV out of my .300 WinMag, and it is ear safe with the suppressor installed..................

[littlejerry]

[QUOTE=Sean M;153226]I love my .22 cans........I can shoot into my bullet trap in the garage at 0200 and no one is any the wiser. Newest fireteam member got a SS/RealTree Chipmunk single shot for his birthday present (maybe a little early at 4 days old, but hey.....never know when he will be ready. His schedule, not mine). /QUOTE]

Congrats!

[BLR]

I love my .22 cans........I can shoot into my bullet trap in the garage at 0200 and no one is any the wiser. Newest fireteam member got a SS/RealTree Chipmunk single shot for his birthday present (maybe a little early at 4 days old, but hey.....never know when he will be ready. His schedule, not mine). Buddy threaded it for me so we can attach one of the .22 suppressors. Keeping ear pro on a post-toddler or little person is virtually impossible. At that age, even a .22 is not safe for his long term ear health. No need to worry what he decides to do with muffs or plugs with the suppressor.

One suppressor I have not had a whole lot of love for is my GemTech 17 HMR suppressor. Quality is fine. Construction is fine. Materials are fine. Fit - fine. Reduction..........not so much. Very little perceptible noise reduction, and since the varmints are not likely to PID my FPF and return fire or CFF-IDF, I'm not concerned about muzzle flash. I think I went in with higher than I should have expectations, and was(am) disappointed with the results. For the cost, tax, wait, and extra paperwork effort, I would say I "Chose poorly". Certainly the MV has some do with it, but I get a "little" bit of MV out of my .300 WinMag, and it is ear safe with the suppressor installed..................

Dude. What if he waits till he's 6 or 7 months old and puts eyes on the WinMag straight away?

Congratulations!

[Odin Bravo One]

He is several months old now, and his Pack-N-Play downstairs is across the room from the safe. Dude is eyeballing his entire inheritance every time I open it and smiling. I had considered snapping a photo of him posing with his rifle and showing us his war face, but won't go full internet retard just yet.

[BWT]

He is several months old now, and his Pack-N-Play downstairs is across the room from the safe. Dude is eyeballing his entire inheritance every time I open it and smiling. I had considered snapping a photo of him posing with his rifle and showing us his war face, but won't go full internet retard just yet.

I'm Two weeks away from getting married today, and isn't it funny, as you get older, how much your priorities shift?

You have a safe full of guns that took years to acquire, select, refine, etc. But then you see something like your child or your wife, and that stuff, you realize... it never really meant that much anyway?