Sioux Falls PD Goes From .40 to 9mm

[ToddG]

Argus Leader story (http://www.argusleader.com/article/20130729/NEWS/307290024/Sioux-Falls-police-go-smaller-gun-caliber)

Said the Chief: “When it comes to determining what kind of guns we carry, accuracy is by far the most important factor. We’d much rather have them put more rounds on target than have something with a little bigger caliber but not necessarily hit on time."

Said a guy from a local range: "It seems to me that they’re going against the trend. A 9mm doesn’t really have that much stopping power. Granted, there are more shots, but they’re just not as effective."

Said a Chief from another local department: "Our officers carry whatever is most comfortable with them. A 9mm is cheaper in the long run because the ammo is cheaper. Plus, it’s a safer round; it’s not going to go through someone’s wall."

Paging Dr. Roberts. Dr. Roberts to the OR stat...

[TR675]

Translation:

Chief 1: I appear to have a sound grasp on at least one important thing.

Guy 1: Hello, would you like to see my ass?

Chief 2: Why, yes I would. Would you like to see two-thirds of mine?

[jetfire]

Interestingly, some of the local PD were in the office the other day talking about just this. I may have opined that ".40 is stupid anyway."

[Al T.]

Two of our bigger local departments went to 9mm. No issues so far, though marksmanship is not a common trait amongst LE here.

[ToddG]

Two of our bigger local departments went to 9mm. No issues so far, though marksmanship is not a common trait amongst LE here.

Can you say which ones? I think it would be interesting to keep a list of agencies that switch from larger calibers "down" to 9mm.

[Kyle Reese]

Said a guy from a local range: "It seems to me that they’re going against the trend. A 9mm doesn’t really have that much stopping power. Granted, there are more shots, but they’re just not as effective."

Mental image of Range Guy is a guy who takes 18 handguns to the range, lays them on towels when not being fired, and cleans after firing 14 rounds thru each pistol every Friday AM.

[ToddG]

A good friend just informed me that the New Jersey State Police are in the process of replacing their current 9mm SIGs with new 9mm SIGs after analyzing the last ~60 agency OIS and concluding the duty round is doing an outstanding job.

[Suvorov]

A good friend just informed me that the New Jersey State Police are in the process of replacing their current 9mm SIGs with new 9mm SIGs after analyzing the last ~60 agency OIS and concluding the duty round is doing an outstanding job.

It would be interesting if we could come up with an official "unofficial" list of what agencies are using what duty loads :confused:

[Chuck Haggard]

We tried Glock 22s in an epic fail back in 2006, ended up "back" in 9mms, which we were in since about 1989ish when we started the transition away from .357mags.

Near as I can tell we were the first agency to issue the 124gr +P Gold Dot when it became available.

Locally Wichita PD went back to 9mms last year or so.



In the "it makes Baby Jesus weep" category; Indiana SP also went back to 9mms (gen 3 G17s) at the same time we had our issues in 2006, as they had the same problems with two different .40 platforms. Now I see someone there has the "you gotta have a .45 !!!!" bug and they are going to Glock 21 gen 4s, oh wait, those don't work, lets get brand new never been tested much double stack Sig .45s......

[Dave Williams]

Last I knew NJSP was using a P228 with 124 GD standard velocity. Akron PD used the same round concluding it did better through barriers than the +P after their testing.

[jlw]

The DeKalb County (GA) Police (huge agency/metro Atlanta) switched from 9mm to .40SW a couple of years ago immediately following a year in which they KILLED 13 people. Not just shot 13, but KILLED 13, and they claimed they needed a more effective round.

The good news is that almost all of the shootings were justified.

There was one that was on the bubble. The rest were clear cut justified if memory serves.

*** They switched from Beretta 92s to M&Ps.

------

At our next firearms purchase, I would very much like to phase out the .40SW.

[Al T.]

Columbia SC police went to the 9mm FN from the SIG 220 DAO, Lexington Countu SD went to the G17 from a variety of SIGs (9mm, .357, .40). South Carolina HP uses Glocks in .45 GAP and is rumored to switch to .45 ACP (Glock) soon..

Not sure at all what duty loads are used.

[Sparks2112]

Cincinnati is using M&P's with 147gr t-series in it. Before that they were using the 147gr Winchester white box (no kitten) jhp.


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[Chuck Haggard]

Cincinnati is using M&P's with 147gr t-series in it. Before that they were using the 147gr Winchester white box (no kitten) jhp.


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I have met a few guys from that PD over the years and discussed this, even with crap ammo they were doing very good work. Better ammo=more gooder for them.

[buckskinjoe]

Argus Leader story (http://www.argusleader.com/article/20130729/NEWS/307290024/Sioux-Falls-police-go-smaller-gun-caliber)

Said the Chief: “When it comes to determining what kind of guns we carry, accuracy is by far the most important factor. We’d much rather have them put more rounds on target than have something with a little bigger caliber but not necessarily hit on time."

Said a guy from a local range: "It seems to me that they’re going against the trend. A 9mm doesn’t really have that much stopping power. Granted, there are more shots, but they’re just not as effective."

Said a Chief from another local department: "Our officers carry whatever is most comfortable with them. A 9mm is cheaper in the long run because the ammo is cheaper. Plus, it’s a safer round; it’s not going to go through someone’s wall."

Paging Dr. Roberts. Dr. Roberts to the OR stat...

One of the main reasons I wanted to attend the Indiana SWAT Officers' Conference in May of this year was Doc Roberts was listed as one of a sterling line up of presenters. Shortly before the conference, Doc was no longer on the list. At the conference, I asked the ISOA President what happened, and he said there was very little interest shown for Doc's seminar. In my rather limited exposure/experience, very, very few agencies know much of anything about terminal ballistics. One of my staff instructor's brother is on the IL State Police, and the input (unconfirmed) is the IL State Police has put the 12 lb. NY triggers in its Glocks for "safety."

[buckskinjoe]

Indiana SP also went back to 9mms (gen 3 G17s) at the same time we had our issues in 2006, as they had the same problems with two different .40 platforms. Now I see someone there has the "you gotta have a .45 !!!!" bug and they are going to Glock 21 gen 4s, oh wait, those don't work, lets get brand new never been tested much double stack Sig .45s......

Appears to be very true. Spoke with an IN State Trooper, recently, and I noted the Glock 21 on his belt. I thought the ISP still had G17 9mm sidearms. Then, he told me, the G21s are going away, to be replaced with Sig .45s. I almost fell over!

Let's see: from the Berretta .40 (?) to two different versions of the Glock .40, to the Glock 17 in 9mm to the Glock 21 in .45, to a new Sig in .45 (did I miss some?) all in about, what, eight years?

What's next-- Kel Tec .380s? 1911s in 10mm or .357 Sig? Yeesh!

[Coyotesfan97]

My Department is buying gen 4 Glock 17s to replace our aging Glocks. Whoever is carrying 22s will get 17s. They are buying a small number of 21s for the Officers that currently carry them. We can purchase our guns if we want which I'll be doing.

We issue standard 124 Gold Dots.


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[karmapolice]

The DeKalb County (GA) Police (huge agency/metro Atlanta) switched from 9mm to .40SW a couple of years ago immediately following a year in which they KILLED 13 people. Not just shot 13, but KILLED 13, and they claimed they needed a more effective round.

The good news is that almost all of the shootings were justified.

There was one that was on the bubble. The rest were clear cut justified if memory serves.

*** They switched from Beretta 92s to M&Ps.

------

At our next firearms purchase, I would very much like to phase out the .40SW.

I remember that, it was right after the took the tasers they had gotten of the streets after an incident or two, my friend is an instructor out there she's been with them since 04. After that year they gave them the tasers back too. I am not a fan of .40SW at all, I am a big fan of 9mm and this is more reason why my Chief is the best ;)

[gtmtnbiker98]

From SIG P229R .40 165gr GDHP to HK P30V1 9mm, 124gr +P GDHP

In current transition, Hillsboro, Ohio PD.

[Chuck Haggard]

But then, some folks think that the .40 also "lacks stopping power";

http://www.wpxi.com/news/news/local/fbi-bullets-used-pittsburgh-police-arent-lacking-s/nXTXT/

[ToddG]

But then, some folks think that the .40 also "lacks stopping power";

When I worked at Beretta, we gained an agency that purchased .40-cal pistols because they'd had a failure to stop with their issued 10mm pistols and someone decide the .40 would be more powerful. :confused:

[gtmtnbiker98]

Cops always blame the equipment and/or lack of training in order to justify their lack of shooting skill.

[jlw]

Cops always blame the equipment and/or lack of training in order to justify their lack of shooting skill.

People on gun forums are always experts on cops.

[gtmtnbiker98]

People on gun forums are always experts on cops.
Well, I've been one for sixteen years, I believe I know the culture.

[DanH]

To be fair I don't think that is a defining characteristic of cops so much as a characteristic of screwups ;p

[Dave Williams]

Well, I've been one for sixteen years, I believe I know the culture.

He's right though.

[gtmtnbiker98]

He's right though.I never claimed expertise, I made a statement based upon my experience and personal observations.

I have flat out witnessed co-workers not shoot at all, from qualification to qualification based on the fact that the department no longer provides practice ammunition. I have asked them why don't they buy it themselves, and I'm faced with a blank stare. Seriously!? Should they be forced to buy their own ammunition, hell no. But is it a valid excuse to place yourself in harms way with poor skill(s) and then turn around and blame the gun or ammunition just because you can't effectively deploy it?

It's the Indian and not the arrow and changing the size of the arrow isn't necessarily going to compensate for lack of proficiency. This is a no win argument and a serious thread drift, so I will revert back to the topic.

[Sparks2112]

From SIG P229R .40 165gr GDHP to HK P30V1 9mm, 124gr +P GDHP

In current transition, Hillsboro, Ohio PD.

Really? Hillsboro? Nice.


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[gtmtnbiker98]

Really? Hillsboro? Nice.


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Yep, the guns arrive Friday, we are waiting on Safariland to fill our holster order. They'll be on the street in 2-3 weeks.

[Sparks2112]

I have met a few guys from that PD over the years and discussed this, even with crap ammo they were doing very good work. Better ammo=more gooder for them.

Did you see the video of the plain clothes officer that shot the dude in the work truck after the uniformed female officer went for cover? The only time I've aver seen a police shooting where the officer lays his gun on the ground after firing 4 or 5 shots. In speaking to a buddy of mine, it made a BIG mess on the inside of the cab of the truck. And that was with the crap stuff.


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[Al T.]

To show some amount of the lack of knowledge that drives decision making, here's what was reported to me by a member of the SCHP fiveish years back.

Trooper gets in a gunfight, one of the bullets (180 gran JHP, .40 caliber) hits the bad guy in the shoulder blade and glances off. No clue as to body orientation, but it was used as an argument to go to the .45 GAP. IIRC, the duty load selected was 200 grains.

Despite several switched on troopers trying to explain sectional density, the SCHP went with the .45 GAP for exactly the wrong reason, I.E., that 200 grain bullet would actually penetrate less, all other things being equal. Now they are looking to switch to the .45 ACP, though for what reason, I'm unaware. :rolleyes:

[Chuck Haggard]

Did you see the video of the plain clothes officer that shot the dude in the work truck after the uniformed female officer went for cover? The only time I've aver seen a police shooting where the officer lays his gun on the ground after firing 4 or 5 shots. In speaking to a buddy of mine, it made a BIG mess on the inside of the cab of the truck. And that was with the crap stuff.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

Nope, haven't seen that one.

[Chuck Haggard]

When I worked at Beretta, we gained an agency that purchased .40-cal pistols because they'd had a failure to stop with their issued 10mm pistols and someone decide the .40 would be more powerful. :confused:

A few years ago I was talking to a guy from Penn. who was researching the .357Sig as a duty round, I started asking questions and found that he thought the 180gr .40 Gold Dot "lacked stopping power". They needed something that gave "instantaneous stopping power".

Yes, seriously.

They had a couple of incidents where coppers got hurt after shooting bad guys, one involved a maniac with a chainsaw. I would submit that "maniac with a chainsaw" is towards the top of the list of people that might be filed under "hard to stop" without a solid brain hit.

I asked if anyone on either of the noted incidents had thought to deploy a long gun since both involved a stand-off of sorts and they had plenty of time to do so. Guy just got pissed off at the question.

Their State Police ended up with .45GAPs after that, so I'm guessing that Gaston had accomplished with that round what all of use have been looking for, for so very many years, an actual death ray.

[jlw]

To show some amount of the lack of knowledge that drives decision making, here's what was reported to me by a member of the SCHP fiveish years back.

Trooper gets in a gunfight, one of the bullets (180 gran JHP, .40 caliber) hits the bad guy in the shoulder blade and glances off. No clue as to body orientation, but it was used as an argument to go to the .45 GAP. IIRC, the duty load selected was 200 grains.

Despite several switched on troopers trying to explain sectional density, the SCHP went with the .45 GAP for exactly the wrong reason, I.E., that 200 grain bullet would actually penetrate less, all other things being equal. Now they are looking to switch to the .45 ACP, though for what reason, I'm unaware. :rolleyes:

The GAP has performed very well in actual shootings for which I have been able to find information. The GSP carries it, and it has done extremely well for them. The GSP issues 200gr Speer Gold Dots. Each trooper is issued a G37 and a G39. All of the Troopers that I have discussed the issue with like them, and their training staff speaks highly of them.

I'm carrying Federal HST in my GAPs (Critical Duty not presently available).

[Chuck Haggard]

The GAP has performed very well in actual shootings for which I have been able to find information. The GSP carries it, and it has done extremely well for them. The GSP issues 200gr Speer Gold Dots. Each trooper is issued a G37 and a G39. All of the Troopers that I have discussed the issue with like them, and their training staff speaks highly of them.

I'm carrying Federal HST in my GAPs (Critical Duty not presently available).

Since it basically mimics a .45acp I have little doubt that the GAP tends to do well. The question would be, does it do so much better than a 9mm or .40 in real world shootings that a guy is justified in cutting his in-gun ammo load by a half or a third AND paying extra for hard to find ammo?

[ToddG]

Since it basically mimics a .45acp I have little doubt that the GAP tends to do well. The question would be, does it do so much better than a 9mm or .40 in real world shootings that a guy is justified in cutting his in-gun ammo load by a half or a third AND paying extra for hard to find ammo?

QFT +1

[jlw]

Since it basically mimics a .45acp I have little doubt that the GAP tends to do well. The question would be, does it do so much better than a 9mm or .40 in real world shootings that a guy is justified in cutting his in-gun ammo load by a half or a third AND paying extra for hard to find ammo?

I like the round. I like the way it shoots. I have been able to secure ammo for it when I couldn't in the other calibers as the company that produces the GSP's training ammo is in the neighboring county. I also like the fact that it gives me the option to shoot a .45 round with the exact same grip as my 9mm Glocks. The G21 grip is simply too big for my hands even in the SF variety.

My actual issued duty weapon is a G18C, but as I type this, my G38 is in the holster on my belt.

I do not advocate dropping 9mm in favor of the GAP. If I were doing a purchase for the entire agency right now and pre-existing ammo inventory, gear, etc, were not considerations, I would most likely go with a 9mm pistol unless S&W gets a LE sales rep that actually wants to sell guns in this state and would actually come take our money for some M&P45s, but that's another issue.

[Chuck Haggard]

I didn't mean you Chief, but in fact several places have dropped 9mms and .40s to get a GAP issued to all of the troops. That makes zero sense to me.

[jlw]

I didn't mean you Chief, but in fact several places have dropped 9mms and .40s to get a GAP issued to all of the troops. That makes zero sense to me.

The GSP issued G22s and G27s to all of its Troopers. They replaced them with the GAPs.

If my choice were .40SW or .45 GAP, I would choose GAP simply because I am funny that way and not due to a super scientific study of the issue. Note that I run around with a black levergun...

The GSP made their switch as the GAP was initially rolling out.

In full disclosure, I was handling an agency purchase (prior agency) at the same time, and lobbied to some degree for the GAP, but we already had .40SW ammo in inventory and would have to keep it due to the agency then having MP5s in .40SW. On a side note, those MP5s have now been replaced with Daniel Defense MK18s.

I am firmly in the camp that believes that if you are in a gunfight with a handgun it is because you got ambushed. Personnel that answer a call that clearly called for deploying a firearm and that did not do so with a rifle or shotgun have to come explain to me why didn't do so.

[Al T.]

Personnel that answer a call that clearly called for deploying a firearm and that did not do so with a rifle or shotgun have to come explain to me why didn't do so.

About 15 years back, I had supper with a guy who had recently retired (co-worker's husband) from the Jacksonville FL PD/SO. We got to talking about firearms. He mentioned that it was policy to do exactly as jlw stated. The reason was that the thugs and rednecks weren't too afraid of handguns, but long guns raised the stakes considerably.

:cool:

[jlw]

About 15 years back, I had supper with a guy who had recently retired (co-worker's husband) from the Jacksonville FL PD/SO. We got to talking about firearms. He mentioned that it was policy to do exactly as jlw stated. The reason was that the thugs and rednecks weren't too afraid of handguns, but long guns raised the stakes considerably.

:cool:

At my prior agency, the policy for deploying a rifle/shotgun was a lot more strict, but the politics of that jurisdiction were much, much different.

The Jacksonville Sheriff is very proactive on such matters.

***For those who don't know, the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office is unique in that it is both a Sheriff's Office and a metro-PD. The city of Jacksonville merged with Duval County to form a unified government. Some of the cities within the county still maintain their own PDs. Some contract with the JSO. Unless things have changed, the cars where lettered as "Office of the Sheriff" along with "Jacksonville Police". The Sheriff is the agency head.

[Chuck Haggard]

We have a pretty open policy about long guns, and we have a metric kitten load of rifles on the street, so they get pulled out of the car with regularity.

[Sparks2112]

My actual issued duty weapon is a G18C, but as I type this, my G38 is in the holster on my belt.


Do all of your guys get issued those?

[jlw]

Do all of your guys get issued those?

No. We have two of them in inventory.

[Sparks2112]

No. We have two of them in inventory.

Have you tried a FAST drill with it set to happy? Please post video. :)

[jlw]

Have you tried a FAST drill with it set to happy? Please post video. :)

LOL. I can control it if I am locked out, but from the holster it is another story.

[Sparks2112]

LOL. I can control it if I am locked out, but from the holster it is another story.

Just 2 and 4. I REALLY would like to see that.

[CCT125US]

Just 2 and 4. I REALLY would like to see that.

I second the motion.

[MichaelD]

Just 2 and 4. I REALLY would like to see that.

I'm going to have to second that.

[Sigfan26]

Omaha, NE Police Department authorizes Glock 17, 22, and 21 for duty use. It used to be just the 22 and 21. The 17 was approved very recently.

[jlw]

Just 2 and 4. I REALLY would like to see that.


I second the motion.


I'm going to have to second that.

Y'all come to GA and you can run it yourselves.

[ST911]

The dude in Sioux Falls driving the train on the switch did a good job, and gave his bosses and troops an easy choice. A few others in the region, noteworthy and less so, doing similar work and swapping data will be hitting the papers as well in the coming months. The majority are going from .40 to 9. A couple recent additions are going from .40 to 9mm.

[Al T.]

JHC and I can be there........ :D

[jlw]

JHC and I can be there........ :D

Come ahead.

[Tamara]

I don't know for sure that I've ever gotten less than three rounds out of a Glock with da switch in one trigger pull. :o

(I used to let the sales crew go play with the one at CCA on their birthdays. :cool: We had a second FA slide cover, and kept it mounted on a G20. That was a beast.)

[ST911]

A couple recent additions are going from .40 to 9mm.

That should read, .40 to .45ACP.

[buzz_knox]

I don't know for sure that I've ever gotten less than three rounds out of a Glock with da switch in one trigger pull. :o

(I used to let the sales crew go play with the one at CCA on their birthdays. :cool: We had a second FA slide cover, and kept it mounted on a G20. That was a beast.)

Wasn't just the sales crew. I spent a very memorable bday with that Clock.

[LHS]

I don't know for sure that I've ever gotten less than three rounds out of a Glock with da switch in one trigger pull. :o

(I used to let the sales crew go play with the one at CCA on their birthdays. :cool: We had a second FA slide cover, and kept it mounted on a G20. That was a beast.)

I saw a fellow with a full-auto G20 at a subgun shoot many moons ago. Dude had it hybrid-comped, with a weird foregrip clamped to the front of the trigger guard, and aftermarket 20-round magazines. He was shooting full-house 10mm loads out of it. Damn thing might as well have been an anti-aircraft gun, I'm pretty sure about 75% of his rounds impacted somewhere up the hillside rather than in the backstops.

[Rich]

When I worked at Beretta, we gained an agency that purchased .40-cal pistols because they'd had a failure to stop with their issued 10mm pistols and someone decide the .40 would be more powerful. :confused:

I bet there thinking was like with the 357mag and the 44mag

Being the 44 would just pass through without doing much damage? dumping all that energy jazz

When I carried revolvers, I found that I could put a faster and tighter group using 38+P 158 SWCHP rather than the 357mag 125gr SJHP

[Sunday]

It is said that a near miss from a 45acp shot from a 1911 is more devastating than a good hit with either a 40S@W or a 9mm. No brag just fact !!! :cool::p:D