Just read No Easy Day, want to read more

[littlejerry]

I just read No Easy Day and loved it. Anyone know any other good books on DEVGRU?

[rudy99]

Have you read all of the more recent SEAL books?

Lone Survivor (http://www.amazon.com/Lone-Survivor-Eyewitness-Account-Operation/dp/0316044695)
American Sniper (http://www.amazon.com/American-Sniper-Autobiography-Military-History/dp/0062238868/ref=pd_sim_b_1)
Fearless (http://www.amazon.com/Fearless-Undaunted-Ultimate-Sacrifice-Operator/dp/0307730700/ref=pd_sim_b_5)
SEAL Team Six (http://www.amazon.com/SEAL-Team-Six-Memoirs-Sniper/dp/B00B2S14OU/ref=pd_sim_b_7)

The last two are more Team 6 specific. Fearless has the most personal account of the individual and IMO illustrates the greatest story of overcoming adversity that I've read in a long time.

[MGW]

Lone Survivor was very good. I liked the Red Circle but not everyone does. I havent read it but Roberts Ridge is supposed to be very good. Not Seal related but In the Company of Heros is outstanding. Same with Bravo Two Zero. If you haven't watched Act of Valor you'll really like it too.

There are other seal books that I really liked but can't think of them right now. I've been around a few spec ops guys. They're all outstanding but Seals just always captured my attention more. Call it mystic, swagger, or whatever. Could just be because I'm former Navy.

[DocGKR]

Try "Fearless": http://www.amazon.com/Fearless-Undaunted-Ultimate-Sacrifice-Operator/dp/0307730700

[Tamara]

Try "Fearless": http://www.amazon.com/Fearless-Undaunted-Ultimate-Sacrifice-Operator/dp/0307730700

+1


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_L8ca7AKEA

[TGS]

Since "Lone Survivor" was mentioned, I felt to also mention this even though it's a movie:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMFLzf-DXXU

[Dan_S]

-edit-

[Odin Bravo One]

I just read No Easy Day and loved it. Anyone know any other good books on DEVGRU?


Have you read all of the more recent SEAL books?

Lone Survivor (http://www.amazon.com/Lone-Survivor-Eyewitness-Account-Operation/dp/0316044695)
American Sniper (http://www.amazon.com/American-Sniper-Autobiography-Military-History/dp/0062238868/ref=pd_sim_b_1)
Fearless (http://www.amazon.com/Fearless-Undaunted-Ultimate-Sacrifice-Operator/dp/0307730700/ref=pd_sim_b_5)
SEAL Team Six (http://www.amazon.com/SEAL-Team-Six-Memoirs-Sniper/dp/B00B2S14OU/ref=pd_sim_b_7)

The last two are more Team 6 specific. Fearless has the most personal account of the individual and IMO illustrates the greatest story of overcoming adversity that I've read in a long time.

Something to keep in mind, or maybe not.............but generally speaking, those who have gone out and written these books are pretty much PNG'd from the community they have sold out by putting things in print. Generally speaking. Not all, but more than a few of these "Authors" are not invited to certain events, reunions, and what not. And not all of the "Authors" of SEAL books are quite as honest about their exploits and accomplishments as they would have you believe.

[littlejerry]

Something to keep in mind, or maybe not.............but generally speaking, those who have gone out and written these books are pretty much PNG'd from the community they have sold out by putting things in print. Generally speaking. Not all, but more than a few of these "Authors" are not invited to certain events, reunions, and what not. And not all of the "Authors" of SEAL books are quite as honest about their exploits and accomplishments as they would have you believe.

Sean,

I'm not surprised but thank you for the reminder. I'd love to hear your opinion on any of the mentioned titles but I understand you may not want to step on anyone's toes by calling out their embellishments.

Can you recommend any legitimate books on post 2001 operations? Does such a thing exist?

One of the intriguing things about No Easy Day was how he described their evolution in tactics. It really piqued my interest in the lessons learned from 2001-present.


Regarding the mentioned books:
Fearless; just ordered on Amazon thanks to you guys.
I read Lone Survivor; can't wait for the movie.
American Sniper; pretty good book. Something about his book was frustratingly vague though.
Outlaw Platoon; great book. Stands in stark contrast to American Sniper and Lone Survior

[MGW]

Sean,

I'm not surprised but thank you for the reminder. I'd love to hear your opinion on any of the mentioned titles but I understand you may not want to step on anyone's toes by calling out their embellishments.

Can you recommend any legitimate books on post 2001 operations? Does such a thing exist?

One of the intriguing things about No Easy Day was how he described their evolution in tactics. It really piqued my interest in the lessons learned from 2001-present.


Regarding the mentioned books:
Fearless; just ordered on Amazon thanks to you guys.
I read Lone Survivor; can't wait for the movie.
American Sniper; pretty good book. Something about his book was frustratingly vague though.
Outlaw Platoon; great book. Stands in stark contrast to American Sniper and Lone Survior

Another not seal book I enjoyed was First In. It's about CIA operations in Afghanistan during the beginning of the campaign there. A lot of it was blacked out by sensors but can still be followed. It was all the more interesting when I read it because I was on the afghan/pak boarder at the time. Wasn't doing "cool shit" but it brought a certain realism to the book.

I think it's understood, or at least should be, that most of these books are not extremely accurate. They are usually written by publicists from notes given by the "author" so there is going to be some embellishing for sure. I'm not going to pretend to understand why these guys are often cast out from the community when they write a book. I believe that their intentions are good for the most part and I really appreciate getting a little peak into what really happened during this time period.

[Odin Bravo One]

I'd love to hear your opinion on any of the mentioned titles but I understand you may not want to step on anyone's toes by calling out their embellishments.

Can you recommend any legitimate books on post 2001 operations? Does such a thing exist?



My opinion is that if someone can make a few bucks after they leave the service, then they should certainly make their few bucks. What they made in money during their time in certainly isn't close to what they should have made. But not at the expense of opening the door for the sneak peak too wide. There are things in some of the current crop of books that should not be in books at all. This is why some folks are not welcome in the community. When you say things that should not be said, and put it in print, and distribute it throughout the world in the form of a book, the people who still have to do the work tend to get a little grouchy. So long as a book doesn't disclose things that should be kept inside the community, I have no issues with someone writing a book.

Those writing for the ego aspect of it........I'm not the book police, and I refuse to be the ego police. I can't stop the ego's. In an all Alpha Male society, there is going to be ego. For those who choose to use that to sell books and make money, that's the way they were when they were active duty, that's the way they are now. I'm not the least bit concerned about stepping on toes, but as has been mentioned, there are possibly other people involved in the writing process, thus making some of the embellishments possibly not the fault of the author. Still, there are more than a few post-2001 books that are more bull kitten than fact regardless of who was involved in upping the claims. They are usually pretty easy to spot. The ones that have the theme "I", with little or no credit given to, or even acknowledgment of their Teammates.

Legitimate books? I don't know.

Books I liked, and didn't see a bunch of hype and bull kitten, and were written with pure intentions:

Lone Survivor. A story that needed to be told, not for the author, but so the men who died (and the why) would not be forgotten.

Fearless. A.B. was already deceased when the book was released, and he didn't write it. No self-indulgence, or ego involved at all.

I have not read No Easy Day, so I cannot comment.

[Default.mp3]

Lone Survivor. A story that needed to be told, not for the author, but so the men who died (and the why) would not be forgotten.
Have you heard any of the debate about the accuracy of the account in Lone Survivor? The guy who wrote Victory Point, another account about Operation Red Wings made some interesting counterpoints/rebuttals here (http://www.darack.com/sawtalosar/misinformation.php), but given that he's selling a competing book, I have no idea just how much bias is there. Given the sensitive nature of what happened, I'm sure a lot of things will be impossible to confirm, but something as dramatic as the vote about the what to do with the goat herder seems to be something that someone that's been in SOCOM could probably do a smell test on, especially since that's going to play a big role in the upcoming film.

[Odin Bravo One]

Whatever..........

My question to anyone who chooses to claim the events as relayed in the book are inaccurate is simply: "Where you there?"

Perception is reality. Mark Bowden makes an interesting note in BHD, discussing how while interviewing several different people about the exact same incident, he would routinely get several different answers, some drastically different than others. Does that mean someone is lying? Hiding something? Exaggerating?

Nope.

It means perception is reality. As they percieved it, and to the best of their ability to recall, they relay their version of events. 10 people can give 10 different stories about one single event, and none is any more or less true than another. Any detective can tell you that people's memories and recollections tend to change and evolve over time.

I don't pay attention to the silly drama. It is sad there are people out there who can't manage to get anymore emotionally mature than they were in Junior High School, but it's not my problems either. Some dude wants to poke holes in a story and challenge the firsthand account of the only witness? Go nuts dude. I'm not the one looking like a bag of douche being the critic......(refer to Roosevelt's "Man in the Arena" speech for context).

[Tamara]

Whatever..........

My question to anyone who chooses to claim the events as relayed in the book are inaccurate is simply: "Where you there?"

Perception is reality. Mark Bowden makes an interesting note in BHD, discussing how while interviewing several different people about the exact same incident, he would routinely get several different answers, some drastically different than others. Does that mean someone is lying? Hiding something? Exaggerating?

Nope.

It means perception is reality. As they percieved it, and to the best of their ability to recall, they relay their version of events. 10 people can give 10 different stories about one single event, and none is any more or less true than another. Any detective can tell you that people's memories and recollections tend to change and evolve over time.

cf. The recounts of the participants and witnesses of the Miami Shootout. (Just re-read this, so it was fresh in my mind. Or I think I did. ;) )

[NEPAKevin]

cf. The recounts of the participants and witnesses of the Miami Shootout. (Just re-read this, so it was fresh in my mind. Or I think I did. ;) )

I once watched " In the Line of Duty: The FBI Murders" but apparently my mind blocks out any memories of 80s men's fashions that are too painful.

[Clyde from Carolina]

Well said, Sean. A lot of "serious historians" disparage oral histories because the witnesses can be off in their recollections, etc. Same phenomenon of people missing out on stuff as witnesses in police investigations as you said re: ask the detectives. Memories for fine details and total recall often suck. Very true, yeah...some people flat out lie for a host of reasons, too.

Still...the people who were there were...there. In an oral history like Semper Fi, Mac you get the feel for what it was like to be a Marine in World War II overseas. Did anything in that book get exaggerated or remembered incorrectly due to time or ego or faulty memory? I'm sure it did. But it also captured the essence of the experience better than a hundred official histories gathering dust in the stacks of all the base and station libraries of every military base around the country. My friend who is a WWII Marine vet read the book and loves to quote the dying words of the Duke's uncle from one story. (It's pretty salty, and involves a bad kitten-type word.)

[Default.mp3]

I don't pay attention to the silly drama. It is sad there are people out there who can't manage to get anymore emotionally mature than they were in Junior High School, but it's not my problems either. Some dude wants to poke holes in a story and challenge the firsthand account of the only witness? Go nuts dude. I'm not the one looking like a bag of douche being the critic......(refer to Roosevelt's "Man in the Arena" speech for context).

Well, it's not exactly like the critics in this case are trying to get the credit of the man in the arena. Maybe the drama is quite silly, but I wouldn't know, largely because I don't really see much drama to be had, since I'm not in the Teams, or even the military (and FWIW, I strongly agree with everything else you said about perspective and reality). I think Darack makes a convincing argument, but because I know he has every reason to be biased, and that I don't know what I don't know, I thought it wise to get the opinion of others who might be better informed. I've also seen some negative input from a vetted source, but again, there is very much potential for bias from there, too, or even flat out a poor perspective.

So, I have the arguments that Darack makes, and the statements from a vetted source that say The Lone Survivor has significant gaps/revisions; I also have a lot of BTDT people who highly recommend the book, and awareness that the sources downing the book are highly imperfect. I like to know if I can treat a book said to be non-fiction as indeed a best effort non-fiction account, or if it's something more along the lines of O'Brien's ideas of how to tell the truth ("inventing incidents that did not in fact occur but that nonetheless help to clarify and explain"), or if it's just Robinson making up stuff and Luttrell going along with it for his own reasons. If I'm not rated to know the truth of the matter, that's fine, but I'd rather just not know anything at all be aware of that ignorance than be told a different tale and think I actually know what happened.

[Drang]

Perception is reality. Mark Bowden makes an interesting note in BHD, discussing how while interviewing several different people about the exact same incident, he would routinely get several different answers, some drastically different than others.
And SLA Marshall did the original groundwork on that, before Kurosawa made Rashoman.

That said, the criticism that some things were revealed that should not have been, may be valid. I don't know. I was just a low-speed, high-drag MI Geek, so I can neither confirm nor deny anything.

[Odin Bravo One]

Well, it's not exactly like the critics in this case are trying to get the credit of the man in the arena. Maybe the drama is quite silly, but I wouldn't know, largely because I don't really see much drama to be had, since I'm not in the Teams, or even the military (and FWIW, I strongly agree with everything else you said about perspective and reality). I think Darack makes a convincing argument, but because I know he has every reason to be biased, and that I don't know what I don't know, I thought it wise to get the opinion of others who might be better informed. I've also seen some negative input from a vetted source, but again, there is very much potential for bias from there, too, or even flat out a poor perspective.

So, I have the arguments that Darack makes, and the statements from a vetted source that say The Lone Survivor has significant gaps/revisions; I also have a lot of BTDT people who highly recommend the book, and awareness that the sources downing the book are highly imperfect. I like to know if I can treat a book said to be non-fiction as indeed a best effort non-fiction account, or if it's something more along the lines of O'Brien's ideas of how to tell the truth ("inventing incidents that did not in fact occur but that nonetheless help to clarify and explain"), or if it's just Robinson making up stuff and Luttrell going along with it for his own reasons. If I'm not rated to know the truth of the matter, that's fine, but I'd rather just not know anything at all be aware of that ignorance than be told a different tale and think I actually know what happened.

Without delving way down deep into the layers.............looks to me exactly like the drama I mentioned. A game of "My ops are blacker than yours" penis measuring. Who is telling the truth? Conspiracy theories. Cover ups. Lies. Etc. These are the exact reasons I personally believe people should just keep their accounts.of their experiences to themselves, and out of books.

[LittleLebowski]

I like science fiction.

[Default.mp3]

Without delving way down deep into the layers.............looks to me exactly like the drama I mentioned. A game of "My ops are blacker than yours" penis measuring. Who is telling the truth? Conspiracy theories. Cover ups. Lies. Etc. These are the exact reasons I personally believe people should just keep their accounts.of their experiences to themselves, and out of books.

...

I see. Yeah, light bulb moment for me. Since I had no vested interest in all that, but just idle curiosity, I totally didn't think about it that way. Thanks for the explanation, and apologies if I seemed out of line at any point.