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Tamara
05-12-2011, 09:26 PM
Back in the early '90s, when I first started getting into this shooting thing really seriously, you knew somebody was The Real Deal because they carried a customized 1911 in Condition 1 in a Sparks or Rosen IWB holster, strong side. After years of off-and-on carrying Glocks and SIGs and P7s, I'd be lying if I said this didn't have some influence on my choice when I really got serious about toting back in '01 and started packing a Springer Pro.

And, you know, I know I can't have been alone in that thought. I mean, how many people were carrying cocked & locked Government Models, not because it was the setup they had trained with and worked with the best, but because that's what all The Cool Kids were doing?

Similarly, I look around a gun show today and wonder how many kids are running a Glock or M&P in AIWB kydex because that's how they were schooled, and how many are doing it because, like tying an onion on your belt (http://www.strimoo.com/video/13917283/The-Simpsons-Strike-Breakers-MySpaceVideos.html), it was the style at the time?

Kyle Reese
05-12-2011, 09:36 PM
Back in the early '90s, when I first started getting into this shooting thing really seriously, you knew somebody was The Real Deal because they carried a customized 1911 in Condition 1 in a Sparks or Rosen IWB holster, strong side. After years of off-and-on carrying Glocks and SIGs and P7s, I'd be lying if I said this didn't have some influence on my choice when I really got serious about toting back in '01 and started packing a Springer Pro.

And, you know, I know I can't have been alone in that thought. I mean, how many people were carrying cocked & locked Government Models, not because it was the setup they had trained with and worked with the best, but because that's what all The Cool Kids were doing?

Similarly, I look around a gun show today and wonder how many kids are running a Glock or M&P in AIWB kydex because that's how they were schooled, and how many are doing it because, like tying an onion on your belt (http://www.strimoo.com/video/13917283/The-Simpsons-Strike-Breakers-MySpaceVideos.html), it was the style at the time?

It's an interesting point, to be sure. I carry AIWB not because The Cool Kids do it, but because it is, from a concealability/accessibility standpoint, a far superior method of carrying a service sized handgun.

Just my 2 kopecks.

YVK
05-12-2011, 09:52 PM
I am a Cool Kid with a retro flair then - I carry condition 1 in AIWB. Or retro kid with cool flair...

I don't think there is anything wrong with "following the crowd" as long as the follower (not the magazine part) has enough critical thinking of his/her own.

jslaker
05-12-2011, 10:23 PM
The Cargo Cult (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult) in unavoidable. You're always going to have people that follow and emulate without understanding.

Though I think the numbers of AIWB+polymer striker toting types are a rather extreme minority in the first place. The cocked and locked 1911 still carries a certain cachet in most gun shops, and Springfield XDs are still flying off shelves.

If I spot somebody at the range wearing an M&P on their appendix, it might catch my attention, but primarily because it's out of the norm. I don't think it really has any bearing on my perception on whether they're an ultra leet warrior (mall or otherwise) or not. I can evaluate that better in a 5 minute conversation than I can by the gear they carry, as a rule.

Drew
05-12-2011, 10:34 PM
I say, be cool.

When I first got into shooting, I had to have a 1911. Because that is what really cool guys, like Pike in "The Wild Bunch" carried. Whats more, it had been scientifically documented that REAL MEN shoot .45s. To this day, I remember the guy at the gun store strongly advising me to purchase a used Sig P226 (it had the pre-ban 15 round mags - a hot commodity at the time). "Nope - I NEED that Colt. In fact, put it on this MasterCard, right now." How much better off would I have been if I had taken that advice? But it got me into responsible gun ownership... a cool first step.

I credit pistol-training.com and this forum for changing my perspective. I drink a slightly different Kool-Aid - it is 9mm flavored. But my priorities are a little different, what I think is cool is a little different, and consequently I shoot better than I used to.

On the other hand, I consume in moderation. AIWB is not for me - I have heeded the warnings.

My take: the Cool Kids are a hell of a lot better at the things I am interested in - that's why I think they are cool in the first place. "Its gotta be the shoes..." Rugged individualism - be damned. I want to be like Mike!

Admittedly, I saw a bit of "The Way of the Gun" the other day and winced ... a little.

Ka-ching.

Drew

agent-smith
05-12-2011, 10:50 PM
Admittedly, I saw a bit of "The Way of the Gun" the other day and winced ... a little.


Great movie.

I just buy what I think looks cool, not what others are using.

Blayglock
05-12-2011, 10:56 PM
I think it is why a lot if people closer to my age (I'm 25) shoot a .40. just bc it is what the (insert alphabet soup or clandestine operator) carries.

agent-smith
05-12-2011, 11:03 PM
I think it is why a lot if people closer to my age (I'm 25) shoot a .40. just bc it is what the (insert alphabet soup or clandestine operator) carries.

Nah...I think the reason a lot of people around 25yrs old shoot a .40 S&W is because they are buying their first pistol, and don't know any better. I started out with a .40 S&W, and carried one for a decade...and then I got smart. :)

Blayglock
05-12-2011, 11:10 PM
That as well. To clarify I went to a university that has one of the top rated criminal justice programs in the nation. There were a ton of people there that bought a .40 bc their agency of choice had one or their buddy told them to get one.

Joe in PNG
05-12-2011, 11:20 PM
What do I care about cool? I'm a 37 year old bass playing anime geek, fer crying out loud. I'm 180 degrees away from cool. So, a S&W model 64 for me.

JDM
05-12-2011, 11:33 PM
I think it's evolution, not a desire, or tendency to be 'cool'.

Is an 18 shot M&P more effective, cheaper, vastly more reliable, and easier to master than 98% of everything else?

Is AIWB easier to hide, more comfortable, and quicker whilst on your back fighting for your life than anything else?

The cavemen weren't blasting Mastodons with a .338 lap. magnums right? Of course not, that doesn't mean that a well placed Lapua Magnum is not a better option than a club, right?

Evolution.

Tamara
05-13-2011, 06:19 AM
I think it's evolution, not a desire, or tendency to be 'cool'.

Is an 18 shot M&P more effective, cheaper, vastly more reliable, and easier to master than 98% of everything else?

Is AIWB easier to hide, more comfortable, and quicker whilst on your back fighting for your life than anything else?

Mah point, you have missed it.

This isn't about What's Better, it's about why people do what they do.

If you came up to Joe Gunstore in '95 and said "Hey, why the C&L 1911 in the Summer Special?" would he have told me that it was flat, and conceals well for a service-size auto and was stupid easy to shoot well, or would he have said "Uh, well, there was this picture of Clint Smith in last month's Combat Handguns, and Jeff Cooper said that... well... Real Men carry .45's."

If I yank a random guy away from the swirl of groupies near the Raven Concealment table at next month's Indy 1500 and ask him about his RDS-equipped AIWB Glock, am I going to get a cogent explanation about accessibility and draw speed and ease of defending a gun grab, or am I just going to hear "Uh... because... Gabe Suarez... warrior, y'know."

And, further, at least I know I have a habit of "grading on a curve" when I meet somebody: I see a dude with a bucks-up 1911 in a Rosen IWB or the M&P in Raven kydex and I subconsciously think "Ah, one of the tribe. A person who has probably been to gun school." when for all I know, they're an unsafe assclown who is just following the trend from whatever message board they lurk at.

Al T.
05-13-2011, 07:30 AM
Back in the '80's, the 1911 toter was a binary switch. You knew immediately that you were looking at a fairly competent person or an idiot. :D

Tamara
05-13-2011, 07:31 AM
I look for pictures of people with blurred out faces and just use what those guys are using...

Hah! :D

Can you imagine my disappointment at my first pistol class that was being photographed by a dude writing an article, and the people who wanted their faces blurred in photographs weren't guys with green beanies but rather guys with tinfoil ones?

agent-smith
05-13-2011, 07:32 AM
Back in the '80's, the 1911 toter was a binary switch. You knew immediately that you were looking at a fairly competent person or an idiot. :D

I don't think things are that much different today.

jslaker
05-13-2011, 07:33 AM
Reading through the other responses and thinking about it some more has made me realize that I'm far more likely to do the opposite of what this thread suggests - form negative preconceptions about a person's knowledge and skill levels based on their gear.

There's very little gear wise that's going to make me think "oh, this guy knows what he's doing" without talking to them as well, but every time I see somebody in public sporting an XD in one of the cheapo XD Gear holsters that SA packages with the gun, I can't help but find myself thinking "I wish they knew better."

Maybe it's less a matter of being cool so much as it is rising above a certain threshold of uncool?

Tamara
05-13-2011, 07:41 AM
Reading through the other responses and thinking about it some more has made me realize that I'm far more likely to do the opposite of what this thread suggests - form negative preconceptions about a person's knowledge and skill levels based on their gear.

That's often a much safer bet, though. I mean, when you see a Judge in Bianchi nylon, certain things may be taken practically as givens. Unless maybe it's some kind of ironic hipster statement or something... Is there such a thing as a range hipster?

orionz06
05-13-2011, 07:52 AM
That's often a much safer bet, though. I mean, when you see a Judge in Bianchi nylon, certain things may be taken practically as givens. Unless maybe it's some kind of ironic hipster statement or something... Is there such a thing as a range hipster?

Probably, but I don't get it.

JHC
05-13-2011, 08:29 AM
I can partly relate to the OP. With the following distinction. I have selected some guns to evaluate based on what the "coolest" shooters of the era were promoting and then worked with them. And in the case of buying my first 1911 in 1981 based on the promotion of it by the likes of Jeff Cooper and Chuck Taylor - I did very well. I owned very reliable Colts and was pretty good with them. No big deal.
After so many years of hearing rave reviews from some "cool guys" of the Sig P220 I had a chance to trade into one used based on a similiar motivation. However while it was very accurate, I was not impressed with its handling qualities and sold it.

So if by "cool" one looks at the guns that extreme hard use combat shooters use in order to get a clue about solid reliable platforms, this is not a mistake by any means. This approach at least points someone at well vetted platforms. WAY better approach than following gun test reviews in magazines.

What I think is really questionable is when an aftermarket part comes out and some current SME's post that they are the cat's ass and are going on all their guns and then poster after poster declares that they are jumping on the band wagon if so and so designed it etc. All this occurs with no more than a handful of these parts actually in hard use. I've seen this most prevalent in ARs followed by Glocks.

turbolag23
05-13-2011, 08:40 AM
how many other ways are there to buy other than whats cool or buying by cost?

i'd think people either buy into the current hype at the time (1911 sparks/rosen, M&P raven, Hk aiwb...) or whats currently the cheapest or most expensive depending on the individuals mindset.

i've seen plenty of people buy taurus because it was cheaper than the alternative and many people buy kimber because that was the most expensive thing in the case.

i think forums like this are great because they help show shooters different options. before this forum and training with Tom of RCS I hadnt seen anyone carry AIWB. i currently have a Shaggy on order. I guess thats "buying cool" but its an option i didnt know about before.

gtmtnbiker98
05-13-2011, 09:05 AM
What? You mean I shouldn't have ran out and bought an M&P9 with threaded barrel and an X-300 followed by a RCS Phantom just because Travis and Chris used them? Say it ain't so!:p

BigT
05-13-2011, 09:13 AM
I've been guilty of buying based on cool. Not necessarily what was in the latest Magpul DVD but for a little CDI.

When I bought my G30 I got the GTS with the G21 length barrel set up to take the disposable suppressors. Do I need that capability on a carry gun?Not often:cool: is it cool to have? Yes. Do I lose anything with regards its capability as a carry gun? No.

With the 2.5" Smith M66 I scored today for SSR I lose a litte functinality in a division I won't shoot much but it just looks so cool:)

jslaker
05-13-2011, 09:29 AM
how many other ways are there to buy other than whats cool or buying by cost?

Buying what's functional? A 3rd Gen 9mm Glock isn't the coolest gun on the market, and it sits pretty firmly in the median price range of mainstream handguns, but is a solid choice from a functional perspective.

Josh Runkle
05-13-2011, 09:30 AM
What? You mean I shouldn't have ran out and bought an M&P9 with threaded barrel and an X-300 followed by a RCS Phantom just because Travis and Chris used them? Say it ain't so!:p

Not gonna lie. Might have influenced my decision to buy one. 5,000 rds later, My shooting with an M&P9 influenced my decision to carry it. Grant at GandRTactical just happened to have a few RCS Phantom MD cut holsters in his shop and I bought one to try it out, not because I wanted to be "like Chris or Travis", nor did I plan to carry this way. I just happened to be at surefire a few weeks before and picked up an X300 along with a few other things. Now I'm an M&P armorer with a lot more rounds downrange and I carry an M&P because I shoot it well and have a good understanding of the gun itself. I happen to carry an X300 as a back-up light (E2DLED primary) with my M&P9 in an RCS Phantom MD cut. I shoot suppressed about 10% of the time as well (though not out of the m&p9 yet, don't have a barrel), so, theoretically, it's possible I'll get my holster opened up for a threaded barrel at some point.

Fanboy?

Maybe? I'd like to think that I arrived at the conclusion of carrying an M&P9 with a light in an RCS holster on my own, not necessarily because someone else does it. But in the end I'm sure that watching someone "cool" do it first helped reaffirm decisions I made.

The big difference in the whole 1911/milt sparks vs todays "tacticool" stuff is practicality. It's no longer "cool" to buy nice stuff because it's nice, ie: milt sparks. It's "cool" to buy something practical. I'd like to think that I'm just practical on my own; trying to buy the gear that works the best every time with the least amount of effort, and not necessarily trying to be "cool."

Tamara
05-13-2011, 09:40 AM
The big difference in the whole 1911/milt sparks vs todays "tacticool" stuff is practicality. It's no longer "cool" to buy nice stuff because it's nice, ie: milt sparks. It's "cool" to buy something practical.



Ah, but back in the time frame to which I referred, people didn't buy this stuff because it was "nice" but because it was practical. There was no good kydex. There was no bad kydex, either. Your choices for a CCW holster were good leather, bad leather, or bad nylon.

Sparks didn't build its reputation based on "pretty" or "nice", but by building a holster that wouldn't turn into a sweat-soaked pancake with unraveling stitching after a summer or two of use. Same with the whole "custom 1911" thing; it wasn't that long ago really that if you wanted to CCW a service-sized weapon that would function reliably with hollowpoints and stand up to hard use, your choices were a customized 1911... or a revolver. That didn't really change until the latter half of the '80s. The Cool Guys back then were using this stuff for a reason, too.

JM Campbell
05-13-2011, 09:54 AM
"I" think this all comes down to a few points

1. Fire Arms Developement, what's good today vs back in the previous decades

2. TRAINING vs the uninformed (more so the willingness of the informed to train instead of thinking I'm good to go)

3. Open mind...the idea to accept concepts of tools and methods at face value and not the end all be all as stated by media. Man up and try it and make your own determination.


Take this how you will I am not a uber experienced shooter nor do I claim to be, but these are my observations through my own path of enlightenment.

Golan 40sw to PT145 to SA 1911 to XD9sc/XD45c to HK P30LS

Josh Runkle
05-13-2011, 09:58 AM
Ah, but back in the time frame to which I referred, people didn't buy this stuff because it was "nice" but because it was practical. There was no good kydex. There was no bad kydex, either. Your choices for a CCW holster were good leather, bad leather, or bad nylon.

Sparks didn't build its reputation based on "pretty" or "nice", but by building a holster that wouldn't turn into a sweat-soaked pancake with unraveling stitching after a summer or two of use. Same with the whole "custom 1911" thing; it wasn't that long ago really that if you wanted to CCW a service-sized weapon that would function reliably with hollowpoints and stand up to hard use, your choices were a customized 1911... or a revolver. That didn't really change until the latter half of the '80s. The Cool Guys back then were using this stuff for a reason, too.

I guess I have always thought (perhaps wrongly) that milt sparks wants to sell you a beautiful peace of horsehide or shark, alligator, whatever. Quality made, of course. I own some Don Hume holsters that are just as functional as they were 10 years ago when I bought them. While I realize that Milt Sparks is all about quality, I thought them to be "custom" quality instead of "practical" (ie: my shit still works as good as when I bought it 10 years ago, double, triple stitching or not, but I didn't pay an outrageous price for it) quality.

Tamara
05-13-2011, 10:47 AM
I own some Don Hume holsters that are just as functional as they were 10 years ago when I bought them. While I realize that Milt Sparks is all about quality, I thought them to be "custom" quality instead of "practical" (ie: my shit still works as good as when I bought it 10 years ago, double, triple stitching or not, but I didn't pay an outrageous price for it) quality.

I know I carried a Galco Summer Comfort daily for about three years and replaced it when the snaps broke and, while it was still serviceable and the stitching had held up, it was noticeably more worn and pliable. Conversely, the horse VM-2 I'm currently using could probably be sold as new with a bit of shoe polish, despite three years of daily use, so drinking this particular Koolaid wasn't too hard... Especially when the Sparks isn't that much more expensive than the equivalent Galco or Bianchi, which in turn aren't much more costly than DeSantis's Mexican goat leather...

(Sorry... Didn't mean to ramble. I just get flashbacks to all the times that I tried to convince the customer who'd just dropped eight bills on a heater that maybe it deserved a better home than Fobus or Uncle Mike's...)

gtmtnbiker98
05-13-2011, 01:47 PM
Not gonna lie. Might have influenced my decision to buy one. 5,000 rds later, My shooting with an M&P9 influenced my decision to carry it. Grant at GandRTactical just happened to have a few RCS Phantom MD cut holsters in his shop and I bought one to try it out, not because I wanted to be "like Chris or Travis", nor did I plan to carry this way. I just happened to be at surefire a few weeks before and picked up an X300 along with a few other things. Now I'm an M&P armorer with a lot more rounds downrange and I carry an M&P because I shoot it well and have a good understanding of the gun itself. I happen to carry an X300 as a back-up light (E2DLED primary) with my M&P9 in an RCS Phantom MD cut. I shoot suppressed about 10% of the time as well (though not out of the m&p9 yet, don't have a barrel), so, theoretically, it's possible I'll get my holster opened up for a threaded barrel at some point.

Fanboy?

Maybe? I'd like to think that I arrived at the conclusion of carrying an M&P9 with a light in an RCS holster on my own, not necessarily because someone else does it. But in the end I'm sure that watching someone "cool" do it first helped reaffirm decisions I made.

The big difference in the whole 1911/milt sparks vs todays "tacticool" stuff is practicality. It's no longer "cool" to buy nice stuff because it's nice, ie: milt sparks. It's "cool" to buy something practical. I'd like to think that I'm just practical on my own; trying to buy the gear that works the best every time with the least amount of effort, and not necessarily trying to be "cool."Damn, I was just kidding. I don't own anything but HK, personally. But glad it worked out.

Josh Runkle
05-13-2011, 03:46 PM
Damn, I was just kidding. I don't own anything but HK, personally. But glad it worked out.

I didn't take any offense. Personally I thought it was a bit quirky how it worked out. I am honestly a bit curious as to how much those things eventually effect our decisions, but by no means did I watch a magpul video and hop on the internet and order anything.

MD7305
05-13-2011, 04:17 PM
I think to some extent we get generalized based on what gear you use as kool-aid drinkers of certain individuals or groups. I can say red dots on Glocks or Glocks with xs big dots or M&P in a raven, or a P30 in a shaggy and we can all name a group that seems synonymous with that set up. We are all guilty of thinking that or we are at least victims of such thinking. Some of us do buy cool, I'm guilty of it at times but I value the opinions of SMEs and through experience have learned what works for teir 1 supermen may not work for small town cop/amateur. I try to buy cautiously with Intel in mind of what experienced folks, of whom opinions I respect, have used and how it worked for them. I think most of the good trainers are innovative and as new gear develops they try it out and we see it in there hands, on their hips, etc. New, innovative, and endorsed gear usually equals cool.

Edit: I currently carry a P30 in a Cane & Derby.:cool:

smells like feet
05-13-2011, 09:21 PM
That's often a much safer bet, though. I mean, when you see a Judge in Bianchi nylon, certain things may be taken practically as givens. Unless maybe it's some kind of ironic hipster statement or something... Is there such a thing as a range hipster?

I have to say, the idea of choosing a firearm/holster in a deliberately ironic way opens up a world of options for humour.

Joe in PNG
05-13-2011, 09:43 PM
Range hipster? Would showing up at AFHF with a Broomhandle Mauser count? And can you AIWB a sholderstock holster?

Slavex
05-13-2011, 09:51 PM
I purchase pretty much everything on the LCF. Black, with chrome or satin finished stainless accents, angular cuts and ability to upgrade. With the exception of my (if I could regularly) carry pistol (G19) and my competition pistol (CZ Shadow), those were acquired after much research and hands on testing. My precision rifle was purchased for both LCF and performance (TRG22).
I like to pretend I'm ahead of the curve on trends, hell people used to make fun of the fangs 20 years ago. Now everyone wants them.

jslaker
05-13-2011, 11:03 PM
I have to say, the idea of choosing a firearm/holster in a deliberately ironic way opens up a world of options for humour.

I'm gonna start carrying a hipoint in a dropleg.

Edit:

I'm still willing to pitch in on the hipoint 2000 round challenge.

Ed L
05-13-2011, 11:13 PM
It depends whose definition of cool. Sometimes certain people use it because it is a superior product; but sometimes it might not be.

If something is declared cool or used by whatever 'cool guys' it may peak my interest but it doesn't mean that I will buy it, or even that it suits my needs or does a better job than things I already own.

Case in point, I recently rented the HK45C at a range. A bunch were recently ordered by Naval Special Warfare with a threaded barrel for use with a silencer. I only shot it from condition one, but found that I shot much better with my Glock 17 & 19 and my M&P45 with a Bowie Trigger job.

As for cocked and locked 1911s, I never got near the reliability out of my first two that I did with a Glock. It was only when I purchased a used Springfield Pro that I saw that level of reliability, and only after I selected specific mags and replaced the followers and springs.

HKp7M8? Not really sure what cool guys used it, but the one I had needed to go back to the factory for repairs 4 times in 4K rounds.

Other things like the Raven concealment gear turned out to work very well, whether IWB or OWB.

NickA
05-14-2011, 09:06 PM
Been thinking about this and the vastly larger amount of info available today vs. even 10 years ago, and can't figure out if it's made "buying cool" better or worse. It should be helping people make better informed decisions, but then again some people just refuse to accept facts and will always go with what they wanted to in the first place.
I do think evolution plays a factor also- even when you carefully make a decision based on good info things can change (or you change) and it seems less solid in retrospect.

SecondsCount
05-14-2011, 09:40 PM
Interesting discussion. It's fun to watch the Equipment Exchange areas for good deals as things change. :eek:

Josh Runkle
05-14-2011, 09:47 PM
Range hipster? Would showing up at AFHF with a Broomhandle Mauser count? And can you AIWB a sholderstock holster?

I almost want to say, "Challenge accepted." Almost.

Joe in PNG
05-15-2011, 04:11 AM
I almost want to say, "Challenge accepted." Almost.

Step one- I need to buy a Broomhandle Mauser...

Which I totally would, btw.

Tamara
05-15-2011, 07:53 AM
Been thinking about this and the vastly larger amount of info available today vs. even 10 years ago, and can't figure out if it's made "buying cool" better or worse.
It's certainly made it easier. Back then you at least had to go to a newsstand to find out what the cool guys were carrying.


It should be helping people make better informed decisions, but then again some people just refuse to accept facts and will always go with what they wanted to in the first place.
Well, the whole point of "buying cool" is that it is basically doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.

Perhaps I should have titled the thread "buying competence" instead?

"All the guys that go to gun school use X, therefore if I use X, it'll be just like I've gone to gun school."

Kyle Reese
05-15-2011, 09:11 AM
The C-96 would have been state of the art at an AFHF type class, circa 1902. Carbine training of the day would have consisted of shooting from a saddle with a Krag-Jorgensen, and gun rage of the day would be having the "Trapdoor vs Mauser" shootoff debates. :cool:


Range hipster? Would showing up at AFHF with a Broomhandle Mauser count? And can you AIWB a sholderstock holster?

Tamara
05-15-2011, 09:51 AM
The C-96 would have been state of the art at an AFHF type class, circa 1902.

For some reason, I'm seeing this mental picture of a jerky, sepia-tone silent film of a derby-wearing Dave Sevigny shooting a sub-4 second FAST with a Broomhandle...

jslaker
05-15-2011, 10:28 AM
For some reason, I'm seeing this mental picture of a jerky, sepia-tone silent film of a derby-wearing Dave Sevigny shooting a sub-4 second FAST with a Broomhandle...

He's a monster with those stripper clips.

TCinVA
05-15-2011, 10:44 AM
The reload would be a bit of a pain...

Personally, I'm always on the lookout for a better mousetrap. Anyone who takes this stuff seriously generally is. Appendix carry is a good example. It's not really new..it is just cycling into the public consciousness now because people are figuring out the benefits it provides. Most folks are not on the cutting edge of thought when it comes to this sort of thing, meaning it takes seeing it from someone else to get the gears turning. Then people start to think "Well if it's working for them, maybe it will work for me too."

I knew about AIWB for a long time...I simply assumed there was no way that it could actually be workable. It took actually being handed a couple of good holsters purpose built for the task for me to figure out that it actually can work. It took stuffing the HK45 down the front of my pants with perfect comfort and zero printing for the lightbulb to go on. I thought about my daily life and the constant struggle to carry a real pistol invisibly and I came to the conclusion that the potential benefit was worth investing money in some holsters.

Is it "cool"? I can see how some might think that it's monkey see, monkey do...but for me it was seeing a potential benefit, giving it an honest shot, and finding out that it actually does work.

If you make it a habit to try and surround yourself with people who are smarter than you are, invariably it will have some impact on your thinking. That's kind of the point, right?

Kyle Reese
05-15-2011, 11:33 AM
You'd also see gun rags featuring articles extolling the virtues of the Colt M1851 Navy revolver over the most modern designs of the day. :cool:


For some reason, I'm seeing this mental picture of a jerky, sepia-tone silent film of a derby-wearing Dave Sevigny shooting a sub-4 second FAST with a Broomhandle...

Tamara
05-15-2011, 12:08 PM
You'd also see gun rags featuring articles extolling the virtues of the Colt M1851 Navy revolver over the most modern designs of the day. :cool:

Conversely, you'd have people touting everything from the Webley Mars to the Mannlicher M1894 as The Greatest Advance In Gunfighting Evar! ("Our pre-production sample ran flawlessly. It was easily combat-accurate, and recoil was brisk, but manageable.")

DonovanM
05-15-2011, 01:59 PM
HKp7M8? Not really sure what cool guys used it, but the one I had needed to go back to the factory for repairs 4 times in 4K rounds.

GSG-9 back in the 80s!

The SIG P226 was on my mind as a first gun to buy because I thought it looked cool, and then after further research I found out the SEALs use it. Then I went to the fun store and liked how it felt in my hand, so I bought one. It was the first one I tried and I didn't really give anything else a fair shake.

After buying a 2nd one and a few thousand rounds through both, I don't regret my decision. I'd like a different gun for competition though (but I don't really need one).

So, yes I bought my gun because of the cool factor. Oh well.

NickA
05-15-2011, 04:55 PM
For some reason, I'm seeing this mental picture of a jerky, sepia-tone silent film of a derby-wearing Dave Sevigny shooting a sub-4 second FAST with a Broomhandle...
Oh please somebody photoshop Sevigny into one of those old Ed McGivern videos with the 20 gallon hat on.

fuse
05-15-2011, 09:14 PM
Is there such a thing as a range hipster?


http://i.imgur.com/3MLEw.jpg

smells like feet
05-15-2011, 09:33 PM
http://i.imgur.com/3MLEw.jpg

You win the entire internet.

JodyH
05-16-2011, 08:06 AM
If you buy something without understanding why you bought it other than "xyz guru" uses it, you might be a trend follower.

double-Tapatalk

NGCSUGrad09
05-16-2011, 09:30 AM
For me, buying a Sig P210 or old blued S&W revolver is always going to be buying cool...

MTechnik
05-16-2011, 02:47 PM
To the original post, I've been guilty of this.

I think that any time we view someone as being an "expert", we tend to give their decisions a little more weight. And when you see an expert doing something, you evaluate it in a positive light (because you have a positive opinion of them) leading to the "hey, I'll try it..." mentality.

It made me want to consider AIWB after the many threads here. But I was able to realize it still isn't for me.

Keebsley
05-16-2011, 03:08 PM
Fanboy-ism is going to run rampant because you have rabid followers of X, Y and Z's Kool Aid. The biggest clue as to whether someone is just buying cool because they saw their idol use it or if they are buying it because they want to give it a fair shake is whether or not they actually do use it ie take it to use at a reputable training class, training etc. and then make an informed decision on whether it's for them or not.

If they keep it because it's what their idol uses and makes excuses as to why they aren't proficient, then they should remain living in their parents's basement, surfing the internet, posting their shiny toys on gun forums, playing WoW and jerking off to their Kool Aid's DVDs.

Tamara
05-16-2011, 03:53 PM
If you buy something without understanding why you bought it other than "xyz guru" uses it, you might be a trend follower.

Thank you for having grokked the largest part of what I was trying to say.

I'm sure everybody's seen the YouTube vid of the guy who whips out the Mk23 and makes an ass of himself on a table full of bowling pins?

But, dude! That's Joe; he has a Mk23!

MDS
05-16-2011, 03:53 PM
Interesting thread. As a noob, one of the most important distinctions I'm learning to make is who gives consistently good advice, vs. who doesn't. I'll weigh advice differently when it comes from different people - and as I've gotten better at this, it's helped me make more progress more quickly.

Then there are folks who explicitly aren't trying to become good shooters. A friend of mine has had a long, successful career in sales. He's always looking for new and interesting ways to entertain clients/prospects/etc. He's acquired a bit of a gun collection explicitly for that purpose - including a suppressed bushmaster, a suppressed p22, and a bunch of other handguns. He's looking into buying a 500 S&W Magnum revolver now. At least he has a good excuse... :rolleyes:

Joe in PNG
05-16-2011, 04:20 PM
Thank you for having grokked the largest part of what I was trying to say.

I'm sure everybody's seen the YouTube vid of the guy who whips out the Mk23 and makes an ass of himself on a table full of bowling pins?

But, dude! That's Joe; he has a Mk23!

Well, if one is going to follow a trend, copying someone who knows what they are doing is a lot better than, say, getting a Jericho 941 because you liked that “Cowboy Bebop” anime, or a .50 Deagle because that the most powerful gun in Counterstrike. Or getting a Mk23 because the ad in the gun rags say it's the king of the offensive handguns (and because you saw it in Counterstrike).

Plus, if one is copying the gear of someone who knows what they are talking about, that person is likely not too far from enlightenment.

Tamara
05-16-2011, 06:07 PM
Plus, if one is copying the gear of someone who knows what they are talking about, that person is likely not too far from enlightenment.
Right, but having the gear != knowing how to use the gear.

I mean, after all, I carry the same pistol as FBI HRT. I'm a Professional: It says so right on my gun. ;)

Al T.
05-16-2011, 07:57 PM
I don't really have an issue with someone buying something cool. I've done it before and I'll do it again. :D

Where I lose respect for folks is when they demonstrate a lack of critical thinking skills. If the cool item works for them, fine. If it does not and they cling to the icon like a wino with a handle of Ripple, doom on them.

Part and parcel of us old folks helping the younger is getting them to the range and steering them towards what works for them, not what works for us.

Case in point - young friend of mine has an academy date to become a LEO here. I convinced him to sell his XD and move to a Glock, as his agency uses G22s. Regardless of my feelings towards any platform, his well being and competent execution of his duty to the public may depend on his proficiency with that Glock. Sunday, we did several drills with his G17 and started working on that manual of arms.

TCinVA
05-16-2011, 08:28 PM
Thank you for having grokked the largest part of what I was trying to say.

I'm sure everybody's seen the YouTube vid of the guy who whips out the Mk23 and makes an ass of himself on a table full of bowling pins?

But, dude! That's Joe; he has a Mk23!

I'm afraid I've watched that new Lonely Island video with Michael Bolton so many times that it's crowded out the memory of anything else I've ever seen on youtube.

Kyle Reese
05-16-2011, 09:01 PM
This one

http://www.mediabistro.com/prnewser/files/original/url.jpg

or this one

http://www.lauraforever.com/mbonthenet/images/mboltlg.jpg

:cool:

Joe in PNG
05-16-2011, 09:18 PM
Right, but having the gear != knowing how to use the gear.

I mean, after all, I carry the same pistol as FBI HRT. I'm a Professional: It says so right on my gun. ;)

I guess it depends on who your goo-roo is. If your gear buying tends to follow the lead of, say, Todd G. or others like him (shameless kiss up!), then there's a pretty good chance you're doing all those drills and stuff he keeps going on about. If you have a 1911 based on that Tam chick's VFTP blog, you're not too likely to think that your CCA is some sort of autoaiming one shot death machine.

And if you're well versed enough to try to copy the Android's gear, then you are also very likely going to study Sevigny's techniques and writings.

Of course, if you bought that 226 because Cletus told you it was what the Seals used to kill Osama, then never mind.

MDS
05-16-2011, 10:06 PM
If you buy something without understanding why you bought it other than "xyz guru" uses it, you might be a trend follower.

What if you only do all that dry-fire because "xyz guru" does it? And all those drills? What if, in fact, the crowd you blindly want to impress is into not sucking, so you end up developing considerable skill on your unthinking way towards becoming cool and accepted by that crowd? And where can I find a crowd like that? (As long as I don't have to wear orange all the time to fit in... ;))

Tamara
05-16-2011, 10:30 PM
What if you only do all that dry-fire because "xyz guru" does it? And all those drills? What if, in fact, the crowd you blindly want to impress is into not sucking, so you end up developing considerable skill on your unthinking way towards becoming cool and accepted by that crowd? And where can I find a crowd like that? (As long as I don't have to wear orange all the time to fit in... ;))
But that's not buying cool, that's working your way to being cool. :cool:

Wheeler
05-16-2011, 11:26 PM
It seems to me that the desire for kit, weapon, carry method, etc. is driven by performance. Not some sort of scientific method in which the end user has obsevered, researched, tried, modified and constantly upgrades. More like Dave Sivigny uses... or such and such trainer uses... cuz my friend went to his class. It sort of reminds me of professional athletes and product endorsement, or wearing the jersey of your favorite sports personality.

I'm a big fan of revolvers. I carry one, compete with one, plan my home and self defense strategies around one, but I don't use what Jerry Mickulek uses. I drink quite a bit of Claude Werner's koolaid but I don't use what he does either. Point being that I've taken a lot of my time to figure out what works for me. I can shoot and manipulate a semi-auto rather well but my preference and skills revolve (pun intended) around a revolver.

I don't think the people Tamara is referring to have done more than look at the shiny pictures on the internet, or fondled such and such blaster in the gun store, have looked around to find someone spouting the mantra they want to hear, which in turn allows them to justify to themselves the purchase of product XYZ from the ACME corp.

Wheeler

NickA
05-17-2011, 09:09 AM
I don't really have an issue with someone buying something cool. I've done it before and I'll do it again. :D

Where I lose respect for folks is when they demonstrate a lack of critical thinking skills. If the cool item works for them, fine. If it does not and they cling to the icon like a wino with a handle of Ripple, doom on them.
Well said. I have no problem with trying out something because a legit trainer endorses it, but you must work with the equipment and if it just doesn't work FOR YOU then move on.
Sometimes I do buy something just cuz it's kewl, but you must keep that separate from you "serious" gear.

Jason
05-17-2011, 09:10 AM
I agree, I tried allot of guns in the past because they were "cool" or "seemed like a good idea at the time. Now foe me, its about simplicity: I carry traditional IWB because I feel that AIWB has too good of a chance of blowing a hole in my femeral artery. I shoot a glock because its easy to shoot, reliable for me, and imposes the fewest requirements upon me as an operator to make it work, thus reducing the work I need to do besides working the trigger properly.

jthhapkido
05-17-2011, 10:53 AM
The SIG P226 was on my mind as a first gun to buy because I thought it looked cool, and then after further research I found out the SEALs use it. Then I went to the fun store and liked how it felt in my hand, so I bought one. It was the first one I tried and I didn't really give anything else a fair shake.

Whether or not you mean it that way, it certainly is true, isn't it? :)

dookie1481
05-17-2011, 12:44 PM
This one

http://www.mediabistro.com/prnewser/files/original/url.jpg
:cool:

You can just call him Mike.

NickA
05-17-2011, 06:02 PM
some interesting thoughts in a similar vein...

http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog.html

Jay Cunningham
05-17-2011, 06:21 PM
No relation. ;-)

Wheeler
05-17-2011, 08:06 PM
Nick,

Thanks for posting the link to the Grant Cunningham blog. That makes for some very interesting reading.

NickA
05-17-2011, 08:14 PM
Nick,

Thanks for posting the link to the Grant Cunningham blog. That makes for some very interesting reading.

You're welcome. Judging from your screen name I think you'd enjoy his blog :) A few posts back there's pics of a VERY nice GP100 he just finished, and last year sometime he did a fairly comprehensive write up on the Chiappa Rhino.

jslaker
05-17-2011, 08:36 PM
some interesting thoughts in a similar vein...

http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog.html

Man, this is one of those articles where I half agree with the guy and half really don't.

This in the comments particularly caught my eye:


I'll take it further: since I'm not convinced (except in specific circumstances) that an instructor always needs to be doing shooting demonstrations, I'm coming around to the idea of not wearing a visible gun while teaching.

I may be misunderstanding him, but that seems a baffling stance for an instructor to have if I'm not.

Wheeler
05-17-2011, 09:01 PM
Man, this is one of those articles where I half agree with the guy and half really don't.

This in the comments particularly caught my eye:



I may be misunderstanding him, but that seems a baffling stance for an instructor to have if I'm not.

I think I see where he's coming from. Some, not all but some instructors have a tendency to demonstrate a LOT. In doing so it almost seems that they are satisfying their ego by, well showing off. My impression is that what he's saying is that it would be awesome if an instructor could teach, help a student work through a problem, etc. without having to resort to their gun. Wearing a visible gun and inevitable pictures taken at classes means that people will see how cool that gun, holster, belt, knife, so on is.

I could be wrong though :)

Wheeler
05-17-2011, 09:13 PM
You're welcome. Judging from your screen name I think you'd enjoy his blog :) A few posts back there's pics of a VERY nice GP100 he just finished, and last year sometime he did a fairly comprehensive write up on the Chiappa Rhino.

Is it that obvious? :cool:

jslaker
05-17-2011, 09:20 PM
I think I see where he's coming from. Some, not all but some instructors have a tendency to demonstrate a LOT. In doing so it almost seems that they are satisfying their ego by, well showing off. My impression is that what he's saying is that it would be awesome if an instructor could teach, help a student work through a problem, etc. without having to resort to their gun. Wearing a visible gun and inevitable pictures taken at classes means that people will see how cool that gun, holster, belt, knife, so on is.

I could be wrong though :)

Like I said, I could be misreading. It just struck me as a bit odd given the rest of his article was talking about students tending to emulate instructors.

I think the big thing is that good instructors are going to convey that they're teaching a way rather than the way. For example, I agree with him that untucked polo is unfeasible for many people -- I'm one of them -- but I have no problem with being exposed to methods that might not work for me because they may get me to reevaluate what does work. Again, from personal experience: a while back I'd pretty much dismissed AIWB as impractical for me since I wear tucked dress shirts all day at work. That said, because of the discussions about AIWB, I started experimenting at some and discovered that while straight up 12:30 AIWB is totally impractical for me, moving the gun forward of the hip to about 2:00-2:30 actually works better for me than the 3:30-4:00 SSH carry I'd been using for my mode of dress and work environment.

That's something I'd likely never have figured out without the corrupting influence of the impractical tactical crew. ;)

JodyH
05-17-2011, 09:29 PM
Probably another topic but...
How much I demonstrate and how I carry my gun will change depending on the class I'm instructing.

CCW classes: I carry my daily carry gun and gear (P2000Sk, leather AIWB) and probably will not demonstrate with anything more than a blue gun. The only time my students will even know I'm carrying is when we discuss different carry options.

Shooting classes: I'll carry my "range" gun and gear (P2000, kydex AIWB) because it's easier to demonstrate with more "obvious" gear and my range gear is better for multiple repetitions while distracted by students than my deeper carry CCW gear. In a pure shooting skills class visual learning is a huge factor in how much a student retains and nothing's better for that than demonstrations.

Wheeler
05-17-2011, 09:43 PM
Probably another topic but...
How much I demonstrate and how I carry my gun will change depending on the class I'm instructing.

CCW classes: I carry my daily carry gun and gear (P2000Sk, leather AIWB) and probably will not demonstrate with anything more than a blue gun. The only time my students will even know I'm carrying is when we discuss different carry options.

Shooting classes: I'll carry my "range" gun and gear (P2000, kydex AIWB) because it's easier to demonstrate with more "obvious" gear and my range gear is better for multiple repetitions while distracted by students than my deeper carry CCW gear. In a pure shooting skills class visual learning is a huge factor in how much a student retains and nothing's better for that than demonstrations.

Good points Jody. I can see both sides of the argument. When I teach basics, (Disclaimer: I am not an instructor, but I do run across folks that want some "informal" instruction from time to time.) I have to demonstrate. I am not a good enough instructor to explain how to do something, I have to use visual aids. I'm the same at work when trying to convey a solution to a field problem.

I probably did a poor job conveying my thoughts but what I got out of the blog post was, as an instructor, you're a role model. People will copy your methodology.

Wheeler

CCT125US
05-26-2011, 01:33 PM
Reading through the other responses and thinking about it some more has made me realize that I'm far more likely to do the opposite of what this thread suggests - form negative preconceptions about a person's knowledge and skill levels based on their gear.

There's very little gear wise that's going to make me think "oh, this guy knows what he's doing" without talking to them as well, but every time I see somebody in public sporting an XD in one of the cheapo XD Gear holsters that SA packages with the gun, I can't help but find myself thinking "I wish they knew better."

Maybe it's less a matter of being cool so much as it is rising above a certain threshold of uncool?

That's why I leave my hard case at home.... to keep people wondering. I believe far too many people buy cool hoping it will make them a better shooter. They ignore the fundamentals and look down the line to see what the guy with the smallest groups or smallest split times is shooting. Correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't "how are you shooting?" vs. "what are you shooting?" be a much better question for us to hear?

WDW
05-26-2011, 02:08 PM
Is this cool?
http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/10mm4me/rhino.jpg

turbolag23
05-27-2011, 10:05 AM
Is this cool?


yes

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab259/CWPspeed3/010711%20MGO%20fun%20shoot/DSC_8196.jpg

Wheeler
05-27-2011, 01:13 PM
Is this cool?
http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/10mm4me/rhino.jpg

As a dedicated revolver shooter, I've been interested in these since I saw the first press release. I think the aesthetics are butt-ugly but if the claims are true and if they can hold up like a S&W or Ruger to high round counts, I would be interested. I want to see more evidence before I drop $700 though.

Jac
05-27-2011, 09:07 PM
I bought a sheet of Kydex and made my own AIWB for a Star BM... does that count for range hipsterism?

(or does it just peg me as being cheap?)

WDW
05-27-2011, 09:17 PM
I bought a sheet of Kydex and made my own AIWB for a Star BM... does that count for range hipsterism?

(or does it just peg me as being cheap?)

In the words of Grandpa Simpson, "A little from column A, a little from column B"

smells like feet
05-27-2011, 09:37 PM
I bought a sheet of Kydex and made my own AIWB for a Star BM... does that count for range hipsterism?

(or does it just peg me as being cheap?)

Is it vintage kydex?

NGCSUGrad09
05-28-2011, 09:23 PM
Is it vintage kydex?

It seems "rolling your own" is the new cool guy thing..

orionz06
05-28-2011, 11:48 PM
It seems "rolling your own" is the new cool guy thing..

You bet it is.

jslaker
05-29-2011, 12:01 AM
You bet it is.

Is that why I accidentally ordered half a fucking cow because I had no idea how big a double shoulder actually is?

skyugo
05-29-2011, 01:15 PM
I didn't own a handgun until 2008. I came into this from the AR15 angle... m4carbine.net guys convinced me that cool guys carried glock 19's in kydex holsters. I still think cool guys carry glocks. It's a great CCW piece. so my EDC is of course a glock 19. I did develop a bit of a HK p7 fetish somewhere along the line, so i have one of those too, but it doesn't get out nearly as often as my g19/custom atomic dog holster. :cool:

Wheeler
05-29-2011, 01:27 PM
I didn't own a handgun until 2008. I came into this from the AR15 angle... m4carbine.net guys convinced me that cool guys carried glock 19's in kydex holsters. I still think cool guys carry glocks. It's a great CCW piece. so my EDC is of course a glock 19. I did develop a bit of a HK p7 fetish somewhere along the line, so i have one of those too, but it doesn't get out nearly as often as my g19/custom atomic dog holster. :cool:

I guess I'll never be cool to the m4carbine.net crowd. I think the P7 is a much cooler carry piece than a G19. Everybody has a Glock, so to speak ;)