STI, CZ, and other letters that cause me to feel confused

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Here is a phenomenon I struggle with on a regular basis. Most of the shooters I know are relatively committed competition shooters in one discipline or another and run a lot of ammo through their guns. Being fairly committed to their various forms of competition, they aren't what I would call hugely tolerant of guns that don't run.

And yet among the competitors I know, most of whom express high confidence in their guns, the two overwhelming brands are CZ and STI.

Now I was present for the "Zed is not your friend" class and I THINK (Rob will no doubt remember better) that most of the issues there were ultimately traced back to the use of questionable mags. And since then I have noticed a bit of "CZ detente" around here. Rob's guns obviously continue to function smoothly or I'd know about it. And apparently Mike Pannone likes them...in fact I recall him defending the 75B a few years ago on M4C and his recent article on the P07 was pretty complimentary. They may be the "low bid third-world option" to quote Hackathorn but every time I'm around them they seem to be running well.

I find the same thing with the single stack STIs. I know 6.73 metric kitten-tons of people shooting Trojans and Rangers competitively, in calibers starting with 9mm and going right on up to the adult stuff, and these are mostly people who track their ammo consumption if not religiously, certainly somewhat attentively, as these are all people fairly invested in winning games that depend on their guns not suddenly refusing to get off the bench or Luongoing them in the final stage.

What gives?


I've basically adjusted to the idea that CZs are just better guns than I gave them credit for in the past.

Are single-stack STIs also just better 1911s than I thought? Or would I discover that any attempt to feed them JHPs would lead to a long string of various permutations of "kitten" as both noun and verb?

[Westtexasrancher]

I'm considering moving to a cz, either compact or full size, and carrying cocked and locked. Sent to CGW for trigger/action work, install the short reset mod, and convert to SA only, throw on better sights and thin grips and call it good.


Mike Pannone is a cz fan.

[YVK]

Dunno, hard to get a clear picture, good sample size and context. I've heard that competition grade CZs are unforgiving to OAL length variations, and I just saw same with my own eyes with a national level competitor and his 0.40 1911. Majority of high volume competitors reload, the can fine tune those things, get it going and proclaim it success.
That said, my MP had a part fall out when picked gun out of the box and it can't group, and my Gen4 17 failed to shoot first 1000 rounds without a stoppage. I wouldn't be surprised if I picked a CZ and it better than both.

[David Armstrong]

Just as a FWIW, from my experience and from what I gather from friends who are still overseas, CZ ranks right at the top for opinions on quality handgun manufacturing.

[1slow]

How is the logistics of STI and CZ ?

[cclaxton]

The Cz75 Shadow and Cz SP-01 with the right competition upgrades are incredibly reliable workhorses of the competition world. I own a Cz75 Shadow with the Short Reset Mod, Comp Hammer, 11lb spring, 13lb hammer spring, (no firing pin spring, because no FPB), extended mag release optic front sight and ambi manual safety. I get a 2.5lb trigger with the reset of a 1911. I have buddies who shoot the SP-01 and say the same things about them.

I have shot five sanctioned matches and weekly practice sessions, and ran more than 2,500 rounds through it this summer using my Jack Ross 147gr 9mm reloads without a SINGLE failure...no FTE, no FTF, no dud...nada...nothing. You do have to keep the magazines clean and ensure you get the +15% springs for them. I clean mine at least once a month and usually before each sanctioned match.

They are accurate, quick on the finger, and easy to modify springs for the load you are running.

I have had one extractor break, and one slide release break after about 7,000-8000 rounds. I keep spares in my bag. I have had one mag follower break.

I also own a CZ-75 Compact which has the comp hammer, lower strength springs, and some trigger work. It is a fantastic gun as well and what I use for backup.

My next purchase will be the SP-01 since it will now be legal under IDPA rules.

Some say they are hard to work on, but I have not found that to be true. Also, if you have small hands you will want thin grips and the SRTS. The standard Cz with the standard grips and DA trigger position is a reach for those with small hands.

Be careful using CGW for modifications as they may be deemed illegal under IDPA rules, but are fine for USPSA in most divisions.

I am so happy with my decision...this is the gun I shoot at every match with flawless reliability.

CC

[psalms144.1]

I had the pleasure of recently serving with a fellow agent who carries a personally owned STI single stack in .40 S&W for work purposes. He freely admits that his had MANY reliability issues "when it was new," and that his buddy who bought one at the same time sold his after having a miserable reliability experience. I watched him work malfunction clearance aggressively through a qualification course of fire - of the 60 rounds fired, IIRC, I saw at least three malfunction clearance reactions from him. Add to that, I watched another agent shoot a Ruger LC9 two lanes over and achieve a higher qual score - color me unimpressed by the STI, all the way around...

The CZ, on the other hand, has been one of my secret loves for a long time, but, alas, not on our RIDICULOUSLY lax personal weapons list (yet)...

Regards,

Kevin

[LittleLebowski]

That said, my MP had a part fall out when picked gun out of the box and it can't group, and my Gen4 17 failed to shoot first 1000 rounds without a stoppage. I wouldn't be surprised if I picked a CZ and it better than both.

Me neither.

[Slavex]

Actually it was a broken extractor that was the problem on my gun at that course if I remember correctly. I'd just come back from a match in the Czech the week before and the gun had puked on the last couple of stages. For some reason I overlooked the extractor, at least in a detailed way, until after the courses with Todd. Half the extractor was missing. Something that should have been painfully obvious to me with just a glance. Since then that's about the only part I really inspect. And the extractors have proven to be a huge improvement, I haven't broken one of the new style since (fingers crossed). Slide stops in CZs are the same as locking blocks in Berettas, they are a wear part and you should expect them to break. I'm at around 25,000 on my current one in my match gun, but I also run factory shock buffs, which make a huge difference to how the slide stop is treated. And since I use Rami slide stops, I need to make sure they last as they are hard to find and get up here. Regular slide stops have suddenly jumped to $90.00 each, not sure why, but hopefully that will be getting sorted soon.
OAL, Shadows are notorious for having short chambers. Factory ammo is no problem, but reloaders always like to go long, and especially with 147gr bullets, you can't. But once you know the depth, it's not an issue.
I regularly don't clean my guns for over 3 to 4 thousand rounds. Maybe a bit of lube and that's it. Pretty much wait until the gun starts to get sluggish then clean it. Or for my match gun, the week before a match (and then at least one range session to confirm it's all good and dirty it up a bit). I'll then lube it during a match.
Mags, up here they are the weak point. the factory 10s work fine, except that the base plates will come loose if dropped onto hard surfaces and if shooters don't notice, they will jam in the gun. I run 18 rounders that are pinned and have no problems with them. My practice mag (5) have a couple broken followers due to the pinning solution I used, and they still work 100% of the time. The only thing I do to my mags is clean them if they hit sandy or small rock surfaces or muddy areas. And I tune the feed lips, shooting as much as I do, and dropping them on cement floors partially loaded puts a lot of stress on the lips and they open up eventually. I just whack em with a brass hammer until the round cannot be pulled up and out of the mag. I've actually played around and made them much tighter than they are new and the gun still feeds fine. Factory mags (10s or 18s) I have had no issue with feed lip cracking, but using Tanfoglio full body mags, I have had feed lips crack, they are great mags, but seem to be a bit brittle. I still use those mags as loaners for people, and they work most of the time, with the odd feed lip adjustment needed.
STI/SV are pretty much interchangeable now in the competition world, with a slight nod to SV in my experience (but a huge increase in money).

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Actually it was a broken extractor that was the problem on my gun at that course if I remember correctly. I'd just come back from a match in the Czech the week before and the gun had puked on the last couple of stages. For some reason I overlooked the extractor, at least in a detailed way, until after the courses with Todd. Half the extractor was missing. Something that should have been painfully obvious to me with just a glance. Since then that's about the only part I really inspect. And the extractors have proven to be a huge improvement, I haven't broken one of the new style since (fingers crossed).
STI/SV are pretty much interchangeable now in the competition world, with a slight nod to SV in my experience (but a huge increase in money).

I remember YOUR gun had a broken extractor. I thought there were others shooting CZs who had issues with Tanfoglio mags.

Flawless, sub-moa fit and finish...all day long.

[ToddG]

One of the CZ shooters was using some Tangfolio mags. I don't recall whether they were the only mags he had. The problems were not limited to the mags.

I've come to the inescapable conclusion that CZs are coated with a mind-altering substance. I've had two students show up in class with CZs, suffer stoppages, then later report that they've never experienced a stoppage with a CZ pistol. But there are a million excuses for why no major LE agency in the US carries them.

[Slavex]

lol, yeah Mass was using Tanfo mags right? in an 85 or something? God my memory just does not work anymore.
I think Todd must have put something in the water when he got here to cause the issues we had. Next time it will be better!

[Maple Syrup Actual]

It's been a while and I didn't really pay attention to what other guys were running but wasn't somebody shooting a 97?

If the gun with the Tanfoglio mags didn't run with stock mags either, obviously that's pretty different than if it just choked on sketchy mags. I wasn't watching closely enough to know that.




Flawless, sub-moa fit and finish...all day long.

[Slavex]

I'd have to go find my notes and posts about the course to really remember everything. I've probably got selective memory going on in a big way. I do remember Todd shooting the 100m marker on his first attempt with my gun though and being impressed that he did. Because we all know hitting a 4"x6" plate at 100m is an important pistol skill. lol

[MKabar]

Guys, I am from Czech Republic, CZ UB (original name is CZ Uhersky Brod - it's a City name) is for many people here an iconic idol like 1911 for americans. But CZ guns are unreliable with terrible material and processing quality. I had shoot many CZ exemplars all kind of models, but almost all of them jamm constantly and failures is rutine option with CZ. Also broken extractor or catch release is no failure or problem for CZ owners, it's completly normal to change it every couple months or so but it is still the best gun in the worlds according to them. Typical CZ fans in Czech shoot something between 174 and 248 rounds per year and clean the gun 72 times and then call it the most reliable gun on the world. Shadow cost the same price like brand new P30 and orange 2012 Shadow cost even more than brand new P30LS in Czech. And the bottom and the inside of the slide still looks like some pakistanian home made gun using only one rasper and one hammer :-). They are rummors here, that USA receive mutch better made pieces and the rest garbage is sold in Czech for higher prices than in USA. I don't know, if it's true but I know one thing certainly - I preffer no compromise quality and reliability, so H&K is the right way for me.
Some professional shooters use it, because they get new guns for free for every season. I don't buy overpriced unreliable things so I don't buy almost anything made in Czech :-(.

[Kyle Reese]

I don't buy overpriced unreliable things so I don't buy almost anything made in Czech :-(.

Your beer rocks.

[Slavex]

having toured the factory 3 times in CZ, watched the QC department sort guns, and been in gun shops in CZ to look at them, I'm going to disagree with you. I also know a ton of competitive shooters in Czech and surrounding countries using Shadows, and they certainly don't have any of the complaints you have. Just looking at the numbers of them in IPSC world wide vs other guns in Production Division, the only one that comes close is Glock. And I know that the vast majority of the shooters who use them aren't from the USA.

[Haraise]

Also broken extractor or catch release is no failure or problem for CZ owners, it's completly normal to change it every couple months or so but it is still the best gun in the worlds according to them. Typical CZ fans in Czech shoot something between 174 and 248 rounds per year and clean the gun 72 times and then call it the most reliable gun on the world.

So, 174-248 rounds per year. That's 211 on average.

They're 'replacing extractors or catch releases every couple months.'

Two months by twelve months to the year is six.

211 divided by six is 35.17(~) rounds.

My SP-01 has many multiples of 35.17 rounds through it without breakage. Or stoppage of any kind.

I'll claim nothing with my pistol, I'm only pointing out there is a major logical inconsistency here.

[LittleLebowski]

I would caution people to please keep in mind MKabar's language gap before assigning absolutes. He's certainly doing better with English than I would with Czech :D

[ToddG]

I'll claim nothing with my pistol, I'm only pointing out there is a major logical inconsistency here.

Hyperbole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole). It's not just for breakfast anymore.

Robbie & misanthropist -- I do not remember for certain whether the student running the Tangfolio mags had any CZ mags.

The popularity of the CZ worldwide in IPSC is based on trigger pull weight rules, wouldn't you agree, Robbie? In the US, where that rule doesn't exist, the CZ is also nonexistent.

[Matt O]

Hyperbole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole). It's not just for breakfast anymore.

Robbie & misanthropist -- I do not remember for certain whether the student running the Tangfolio mags had any CZ mags.

The popularity of the CZ worldwide in IPSC is based on trigger pull weight rules, wouldn't you agree, Robbie? In the US, where that rule doesn't exist, the CZ is also nonexistent.

CZ's seem to be very common in competition even here in the US: 2011 Production Nationals pistol list. (http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=136865)

I count 6 CZ's and 4 glocks in the top 16 competitors.

[JV_]

I count 6 CZ's and 4 glocks in the top 16 competitors.

Is looking at the top shooter's gear a good distribution?
Are those same guys shooting international matches too, where they might want to shoot similar gear for both US and Intl matches?

[Matt O]

Is looking at the top shooter's gear a good distribution?
Unsure - but I would think that would be a more useful barometer as equipment variances become more relevant at the higher levels than looking at D and C class shooters.


Are those same guys shooting international matches too, where they might want to shoot similar gear for both US and Intl matches?
Yes, I would think that's likely a factor for some of these guys.

[littlejerry]

Hyperbole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole). It's not just for breakfast anymore.

Robbie & misanthropist -- I do not remember for certain whether the student running the Tangfolio mags had any CZ mags.

The popularity of the CZ worldwide in IPSC is based on trigger pull weight rules, wouldn't you agree, Robbie? In the US, where that rule doesn't exist, the CZ is also nonexistent.

CZ is very popular in IPSC here in GA. Lots of em in production

[JeffJ]

CZs are the hottest thing going in Production division, you don't really see them much in Limited. Serious USPSA guys are dropping the plastic guns and going to CZs in droves, if they can find one. Most shooters aren't shooting them box stock though, either CZ USA or Matt Mink trigger jobs seem to be almost a requirement.

[tomr]

Todd, could you explain the IPSC trigger pull rule that favors the CZ?


Hyperbole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole). It's not just for breakfast anymore.

Robbie & misanthropist -- I do not
remember for certain whether the student running the Tangfolio mags had any CZ mags.

The popularity of the CZ worldwide in IPSC is based on trigger pull weight rules, wouldn't you agree, Robbie? In the US, where that rule doesn't exist, the CZ is also nonexistent.

[LittleLebowski]

I'd like to shoot a P-07 after reading this writeup (https://shootersmagazine.com/cz-p-07-duty-the-best-pistol-nobody-knows-about/).

[Matt O]

Todd, could you explain the IPSC trigger pull rule that favors the CZ?

Not Todd obviously, but I believe it's a reference to this rule for the IPSC production division:


Minimum trigger pull (see Appendix F2) 2.27 kg (5lbs) for first shot

It doesn't favor the CZ per se, it just favors DA/SA guns where it's easy to get a DA pull weight above the 5# minimum, and then roll with a super slick and tuned SA trigger for the rest of the stage.

[cclaxton]

The fact that 6 of 16 top shooters are running Cz SP-01's can't be explained away that easily. Okay, maybe you can remove Angus Hobdell because he is a CZ franchise owner, but the rest you can't explain away. Anyone who competes knows you need a reliable gun that has a great trigger and weight distribution to allow a shooter to shoot fast and accurate. Those shooters aren't going to pick Cz "just because." I would also add that each shooter needs to be able to adjust/customize spring weight for their load and their trigger preference. The Cz SP-01 and 75 Shadow delivers on those.

When you get the right ammo in a Cz, it runs with 99% reliability. It did take me some time to figure out to run stronger springs for factory new and weaker springs for reloaded. I keep an extractor, slide release, bow, and springs in my bag and I know how to replace them. I just expect them to fail about every 7-10,000 rounds.

Great mags are hard to find. I have been looking for the stainless mags with the higher powered mag springs and blue followers, and cannot find them. So, I upgrade the standard ones with better springs and baseplates and they work great. I clean the mags between matches.

CC

[ToddG]

The fact that 6 of 16 top shooters are running Cz SP-01's can't be explained away that easily.

I still don't see how that's proof of reliability. Top Open shooters run guns that have repeatedly proven inadequate in terms of hard use reliability in the hands of LE and .mil personnel. Tuning springs, keeping a bag of spare parts, and cleaning mags every time I shoot isn't my idea of a reliable gun. If you're willing to go through that for a gun that shoots well in a particular sport, have at it. I've got absolutely no criticism whatsoever. But this common myth that "any gun a top competitor shoots is a reliable gun" is bollox. Not only have I seen tons of those guys suffer stoppages at major matches but odds are their guns aren't perfect exemplars of what you get in the box at your local gunshop.

edited to add: And a big benefit of the CZ from a competition standpoint is that it achieves such a light DA trigger pull. Once you get past that on the first shot you end up with a lighter-and-crisper-than-Glock pull for every other shot on a stage. That's one of the reasons I think DA/SA guns are a lot more shootable than conventional wisdom would have us believe, as mentioned here (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4212-General-Thoughts-on-DA-SA-Pistols).

[Slavex]

I don't remember if Mass had CZ mags as well as Tanfo mags or not either. But it shouldn't have made any difference, as both mags normally work 100% in the gun. I do know his gun had some home smithing done to it, as, obviously, does mine.
Regarding spare parts and cleaning mags, as a competitive shooter, no matter what gun you run, those are a necessity. Even the Glock guys carry a ton of spare parts with them. Competitions take place in weather conditions, rain, mud, snow, wind, hot, cold, sand, rocks etc. All those things are going to affect how your gun runs. When I first started IPSC I scoffed at the guys lubing their guns every stage, cleaning every mag every stage, I figured my combat proven Beretta (because we all know the Elite II is a major combat use gun...) until I got bit in the kitten for not cleaning my mag. A rock stuck in the follower causing me to lose a stage and thereby a match made me rethink my range habits. On a tactical or similar course, a rock in a mag is an opportunity to learn and solve a problem and is a realistic thing to be aware of in defensive shooting situation (if you picked up mags, and yeah there is a whole thread available on that). In IPSC or even IDPA, it's a loser situation. If you drop your mags, you clean them, unless it's on an indoor, or cement pad range, and even then a lot of guys will, just out of habit. It doesn't matter what gun they run. A few minutes spent doing that might earn you a trophy, or at least not prevent you from earning it.
A lot of guys and girls will carry spare guns, as it's quicker to grab that than repair a gun during a match, but a lot of people can't afford that either so spare parts it is. If you think about how many rounds most of the serious shooters go through, we easily go far beyond recommended maintenance cycles for parts.
And yes, at matches you constantly see people with jams and malfs, across all brands, but seldom in the top shooters hands. At smaller local matches you will see even more, as that's the testing grounds for new ideas and products, again across all brands. But major matches? Seldom, and when you do it's usually ammo related, not always, but usually, or it's new shooters who think they are gunsmiths and haven't proven their guns at practice yet.
Of course looking at the Top Top shooters is it fair to assume the guns they use are going to be the best guns available, no of course not, they most often are working in conjunction with a factory and their guns are not representative of what you can buy off the shelf. But if you look at the top shooters who aren't sponsored in a major way, I'd say yes, it is fair to make that assumption.

Popularity in IPSC of the Shadow (outside of the USA) can be attributed to a few things I think. First going back to when the Shadow hit the market it came with factory 18 round mags, was about the same price as a Glock, and once tuned, had an amazing trigger (5lb minimum first shot being mandatory). However eventually the IPSC BOD decided that Production Division was becoming a "mag race" division, and came up with the 15 round rule. Yet the Shadow still dominates the division internationally, with only the new Tanfoglios finally breaking in. This is because they finally figured out how to get a rules legal decent trigger out of them, which always held the Tanfo back in PD. They do cost more, as do the Shadows now, than a Glock. Probably another reason for the popularity is the weight, they just don't move much under recoil, they are harder to transition than a plastic gun, but the way they return to target is just amazing.Next, the customization people are allowed to do to the gun and stay within the rules is far greater than you can do with a Glock or most other plastic guns. People like to customize colors and grips etc. However none of that would matter if they didn't last. Do they break? Yes of course they do, I've broken a number of parts on them, slidestops, extractors, trigger springs, and one firing pin spring. I've also seen broken front sights on a couple and a few lifter springs go (although that's one spring I don't carry as spare as I've never broken one). Sears and hammers get eaten now and then too. My backup gun is needing a new sear, and maybe new hammer and it's sitting around 70,000 rounds through it. My backup backup gun has a slight casting flaw that I had to repair with some steel epoxy. Do lemons come from the factory? Oh hell yes, but they are rare as they are from any other major producer.
I'd love to see Todd run two of them for his test, but in all my talks with the factory, they are uninterested.
Just for kittens and giggles I'm going to clean my match gun in the next week or so (after totaling it's shots since it's last cleaning) and do another 2000 round test on it, maybe even try to do it in a weekend if I can get a couple guys to help out.
In my weekly class at least 70% of the class is running Shadows and any issues I've seen on the line in the last year have all been ammo related, bad reloads mostly, and a couple bad factory rounds. Except for one gun that a friend uses that is quite high round count, it needs a new sear and hammer like my backup gun.

sorry for the cobbled together post, some was done on my phone, some on my PC, while I'm doing about 9 other things

[cclaxton]

I still don't see how that's proof of reliability. Top Open shooters run guns that have repeatedly proven inadequate in terms of hard use reliability in the hands of LE and .mil personnel. Tuning springs, keeping a bag of spare parts, and cleaning mags every time I shoot isn't my idea of a reliable gun. If you're willing to go through that for a gun that shoots well in a particular sport, have at it. I've got absolutely no criticism whatsoever. But this common myth that "any gun a top competitor shoots is a reliable gun" is bollox. Not only have I seen tons of those guys suffer stoppages at major matches but odds are their guns aren't perfect exemplars of what you get in the box at your local gunshop.

edited to add: And a big benefit of the CZ from a competition standpoint is that it achieves such a light DA trigger pull. Once you get past that on the first shot you end up with a lighter-and-crisper-than-Glock pull for every other shot on a stage. That's one of the reasons I think DA/SA guns are a lot more shootable than conventional wisdom would have us believe, as mentioned here (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4212-General-Thoughts-on-DA-SA-Pistols).

Todd,
That's a fair statement, but my point is to look at these guns in-total, rather than just one aspect of it. On the other hand, the fact that six are in the top 16 means they are reliable "enough." It is handling, customizations, accuracy, trigger responsiveness, reset, longevity/resilience, etc. But my note here is anecdotal, but since April I have shot more than 2400 rounds of Jack Ross 147gr reloaded ammo and not had a single bad round or malfunction. The last time I had a malfunction was related to another brand of ammo (Great Lakes) on a round that appeared to be loaded very light (FTE,doublefeed). I had problems related to dirty mags until I figured that out.

CC

[ToddG]

Todd,
That's a fair statement, but my point is to look at these guns in-total, rather than just one aspect of it.

Except the discussion wasn't about whether they were shootable or customizable or pretty or any of that.


On the other hand, the fact that six are in the top 16 means they are reliable "enough."

How many rounds did those six guns fire during that match?
How many stoppages did they experience?
What kind of maintenance was necessary before and during the match to achieve that level of performance?

If you don't have definitive actual data to answer those questions, you haven't told me a single thing about the guns' reliability. Perhaps they would have taken the top six slots if not for the stoppages they suffered, for all we know.

Furthermore, "reliable enough" for USPSA isn't the same as reliable. Again, look at Open shooters. There's nothing that makes Open Division more forgiving of an unreliable gun. So look at what the top 16 Open guys shot and tell me how those brands/models have faired in the hands of non-competition shooters. There are a bunch of pretty talented guys based out of the Fayetteville NC area who could talk your ear off about how problematic STI .40-cal double stacks can be.

Both the FBI and my county PD each spent small fortunes trying to get custom Paras to work for SWAT-type duty but even with the help of multiple big name gunsmiths, both ultimately abandoned the guns... no matter how many championships Jarrett won with them.

Etc., etc., etc.

[cclaxton]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=77237

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=117074&hl=%2Bcz+%2Breliability#entry1327060

I asked Matt Mink to comment on this thread. Don't know if he will make the time or not.
CC