Quartet of Premium Polymer Pistols

[warpedcamshaft]

Just a few pics of a quartet of polymer pistols I've been playing with for a while from a concealed carry standpoint (all 9mm's):

I've put a bunch of rounds through all of them, and figured I would take some pictures to commemorate the fun!!!

Walther PPQ
Glock 19 Gen 3 w/ Grip Force Adapter
HK P30 V1
S&W M&P9

I'll spare everyone my opinions and just post the pics, perhaps they will be useful to someone:

Group Shot on Cardboard target:

http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/4_1.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/4_1.jpg.html)

Rear view:

http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/4_2.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/4_2.jpg.html)

Top view length comparison:

http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/4_3.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/4_3.jpg.html)


http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/4_4.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/4_4.jpg.html)


http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/4_5.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/4_5.jpg.html)


Freeze frame during recoil (these were taken from the first shot of a controlled pair that met my average split time for each weapon):

http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/4_6.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/4_6.jpg.html)

[JonInWA]

I'm extremely interested in your thoughts and opinions from your experimentation-both objective and subjective.

Best, Jon

[littlejerry]

I'm extremely interested in your thoughts and opinions from your experimentation-both objective and subjective.

Best, Jon

Agreed. Currently carry a gen3 19 with a GFA and toy with the idea of buying one of these 3 at various times.

[warpedcamshaft]

I'm extremely interested in your thoughts and opinions from your experimentation-both objective and subjective.

Best, Jon

Well, since you asked... I'll share my thoughts... for whatever they are worth.

Just as an overview: The Glock 19 is where I started... and I have shot and carried this pistol for quite some time. The Glock 19 Gen 3 is equipped with the following: Grip Force Adapter, Ameriglo Defoor Tactical Sights, a Glock factory "-" connector, a grip plug, and an extended slide stop.

The other pistols are completely stock. The M&P and PPQ were equipped with the large grips. The P30 V1 was equipped with the large backstraps and large side panels. I have large hands, and tend to find that I have to make modifications to pistols to avoid "hotspots".

Ergonomics/Size:

From an ergonomic standpoint, I have to modify the following areas on each pistol for extended range sessions or training courses:

Glock: Round out the bottom of the trigger guard to avoid strong hand middle finger pain and epidermis removal. Add grip force adapter to avoid slide bite.

M&P: Remove texturing from bottom of trigger guard to avoid strong hand middle finger pain and abrasion of my baby soft middle finger knuckle skin.

PPQ: Radius edge of magazine release to avoid strong hand middle finger pain and forceful removal of hide from my middle interphalangeal articulation.

P30: No issues.

With the above changes, I find that any of the pistols listed offer decent ergonomics for both range work and concealed carry. I don't really have any preference and can move between any of them without issues with a few dryfire presentations from the holster. I've never really been picky about the way a pistol feels... If I can shoot it well on drills, and endure long range sessions without serious pain, I am happy.

From a size standpoint, the Glock 19 and Walther PPQ have a bit shorter grip length (especially the Glock 19), which helps me a bit while carrying concealed. However, I have no problem carrying any of these 4 given the proper clothing and holster selection. I carry at the 3:30 position with inside the waistband type holsters.

Accuracy:

I generally shoot 5 shot groups offhand at 25 yards to gauge accuracy... I understand the limitations of 5 shot groups and that 10 shot groups are better... However, I'll be honest and say that I often don't have the patience to shoot 10 round groups for long periods of time.

The HK P30 and PPQ seem to be in a different league from an accuracy standpoint. I can pick up either pistol, and with several different types of ammunition, get groups under 3 inches. The HK P30 has produced 1.5 - 2.75 inch groups. The PPQ in my hands is usually in the 2.5 - 2.75 inch range.

The Glock 19 has always hovered round the 3 - 4 inch mark for me depending on the load.

I ended up with an M&P that would not shoot 115 or 124 grain ammunition at 25 yards consistently. I found my groups to be around 7.5 - 10 inches at 25 yards.
The M&P in question was purchased in November 2012. With 147 grain ammunition, I will pretty much get similar accuracy to the Glock 19... around 3 - 4 inches.

Keep in mind that these were all fired offhand by me, and I am a human.

"Shootability":

I shot a wide variety of drills over a long period of time...

I shot controlled pair drills on IDPA targets (2 shots as fast as I can while tracking sights in the A-zone) and found that with each pistol, I seemed to hit a performance wall where I could consistently shoot the same time over and over with good A-zone hits:

Walther: .15 split
Glock 19: .16 split
M&P: .17 split
P30 LEM: .19 split

I can shoot the FAST drill in the Advanced range (sub 7 seconds) with any of the pistols from 3:30 IWB.

I can also shoot the CSAT 5 and 1 in well under 2 seconds with any of them. (par time is 3 seconds)

Trigger characteristics are such a subjective thing... for me, any of them work pretty well with practice. In the "observations" section below, I will share some more of my thoughts.

Observations:

The Walther PPQ feels like it has a harsher recoil impulse, the other 3 pistols feel about the same to me. The recoil impulse of the PPQ doesn't really seem to impact performance or split times that much.

The Walther PPQ trigger is quite interesting and very fast... I had to focus on not "outrunning" my sights with the trigger.

The LEM trigger needs range time and dryfiring, and after some wear takes on a smooth rolling break. I had problems adapting for the first couple hundred rounds, and then found it was a very viable system after lots of dryfire.

The LEM trigger is slower for me to run than the other triggers on large targets like an A-zone or an 8 inch circle compared to the other pistols.

The LEM trigger is faster and easier for me to be more consistent on smaller targets such as a 3x5 at 7 yards or an A-zone or 8 inch circle at 25 yards.

The stock M&P trigger on my sample was pretty decent and I don't have any problems with it. It has some grit during take up, but the break turned into a smooth rolling break after quite a few rounds.

The Glock trigger is pretty well known, and I don't mind it... either the "-" connector or the stock connector work fairly well. I prefer the "-" connector if I have the option to change it.

I take a lot of video of shooting sessions, and the P30's ejection is extremely consistent compared to the other 3 samples.

The PPQ and Glock have polymer sights that get rounded off quickly by holsters and such. I like the M&P's stock sights the best out of all the pistols, but I think all 4 of them need new sights.

All of the pistols seem to be very reliable based on my round counts. The PPQ was a little picky about some Freedom Munitions 115 grain Reman ammo I ended up with, but everything else worked 100 %.

Final thoughts:

I guess for me... I don't really care which pistol I ended up with: as long as a the M&P accuracy issue was fixed with 115 and 124 grain ammo, I could slap on new sights on each pistol, and I could make the ergonomics changes I mentioned in the beginning to the respective units.

The P30's ejection pattern does honestly inspire a bit more confidence for me, however the HK costs more... but I'll leave that up to the reader to decide if that is important to them.

I also can't really speak to long term durability as I've only got about 1000 rounds through each gun... (except the Glock 19 has seen much more)

[warpedcamshaft]

I will also add that lately I have a bit more money than sense... I will freely admit that it would have been more productive to stick with one of the 4 pistols and train exclusively with it.

However, it has been a fun experiment.

[DGI]

Following more and more posts on this forum... its inevitable that a P30 will end up in my safe!

Thanks for the pics and the review!

[Rich]

Thanks for your report.

Ive been wanting to buy a 9mm plastic frame for a long time now.

As a long time S&W fan, I would jump on it if it wasn't for all those 8MOA groups they seem to spit out.

I love the size of the G19 but fear the issues with BTTF . I also hate having to buy new sights.

H&K are so darn expensive. But on the plus side , Ive been shooting DA/SA Sig for some time now, so the DA/SA trigger would be good for me.


PPQ looks like a winner But what about extra parts holsters etc.

[WDW]

Thanks for your report.

Ive been wanting to buy a 9mm plastic frame for a long time now.

As a long time S&W fan, I would jump on it if it wasn't for all those 8MOA groups they seem to spit out.

I love the size of the G19 but fear the issues with BTTF . I also hate having to buy new sights.

H&K are so darn expensive. But on the plus side , Ive been shooting DA/SA Sig for some time now, so the DA/SA trigger would be good for me.


PPQ looks like a winner But what about extra parts holsters etc.

As far as the PPQ, the original M1 with paddle style mag release could use P99/Baby Eagle mags-both made by Mec-Gar. Unfortunately, the M1 seems to no longer be in production or at least not in any measurable numbers. The new M2 model, because it uses a button mag release, now uses a new magazine, which as far as I can tell, is made of ground up unicorn parts forged by the gods atop Mount Olympus. Your only holster options are custom ones (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) and sight selection is pretty limited. I had a PPQ, M1. I got it when they first came out, super low serial number. It was a great gun, but the lack of support for it caused me to send it on it's way.

If Walther would ever get serious about the US Market, they could put out some really nice stuff. The P99 is an awesome gun, one of the best, but it just hasn't been marketed correctly. I'm not sure Walther even still makes that gun. I can't remember the last time I saw one for sale.

[warpedcamshaft]

Thanks for your report.

Ive been wanting to buy a 9mm plastic frame for a long time now.

As a long time S&W fan, I would jump on it if it wasn't for all those 8MOA groups they seem to spit out.

I love the size of the G19 but fear the issues with BTTF . I also hate having to buy new sights.

H&K are so darn expensive. But on the plus side , Ive been shooting DA/SA Sig for some time now, so the DA/SA trigger would be good for me.


PPQ looks like a winner But what about extra parts holsters etc.

I would encourage you to do some research on recent M&P changes... from what I understand, S&W is attempting to address these complaints.

Tough call on which one to pick... I think they are all pretty outstanding pistols, and I feel lucky to have been able to own all four. (I have a great and very patient wife who is also a shooter)

Trijicon has sights out for the PPQ. CompTac and Raven concealment are 2 potential holster choices for the PPQ. Not sure about parts for the Walthers.

[JHC]

I've never really been picky about the way a pistol feels... If I can shoot it well on drills, and endure long range sessions without serious pain, I am happy.



A lot of awesome in your thread. And this is quite brilliant IMO. Thanks much for doing this.

[Rich]

I would encourage you to do some research on recent M&P changes... from what I understand, S&W is attempting to address these complaints.

Tough call on which one to pick... I think they are all pretty outstanding pistols, and I feel lucky to have been able to own all four. (I have a great and very patient wife who is also a shooter)

Trijicon has sights out for the PPQ. CompTac and Raven concealment are 2 potential holster choices for the PPQ. Not sure about parts for the Walthers.


I like S&W and have own several of there JKL frames and had good luck with there Gen 3 pistols 5906 & 6906 9mm

S&W should have the accuracy address long ago. How long has the M&P 9 and 9C been in production??

The Doc said the M&P9C 3.5 doesn't suffer the 8MOA groups. So I just might go that way.

I've had 700 stash away for close to two years waiting on the M&P 9 fix or Gen 4 G19. Heck Im getting close to having the cash for a H&K


Anyway thanks again

[Tod-13]

<snip>
As a long time S&W fan, I would jump on it if it wasn't for all those 8MOA groups they seem to spit out.
<snip>
PPQ looks like a winner But what about extra parts holsters etc.

I had a brand new 2013 manufacture M&P Pro CORE that couldn't even do 8MOA groups at 25 yards. (I can generally shoot 4-6" 50 round groups at 50 yards with a revolver in double action.) New owner is happy with 4" at 7-10 yards. From my reading, the "fixes" for accuracy tend to still be problematic.

PPQ parts are a big issue. Walther USA gets random parts every few weeks--they don't know what they are getting beforehand. The only non-wide rear notch sights I've found are the LPA adjustables and the Dawson Precision fixed. You can always get parts from Earl's, they cost more though.

In case you didn't know, the PPQ M1 will be back according to the Walther rep at the Walther Forums.

[littlejerry]

I had a brand new 2013 manufacture M&P Pro CORE that couldn't even do 8MOA groups at 25 yards. (I can generally shoot 4-6" 50 round groups at 50 yards with a revolver in double action.) New owner is happy with 4" at 7-10 yards. From my reading, the "fixes" for accuracy tend to still be problematic.


Fyi, 8 MOA is 2 inches at 25 yards. Did you mean 8 inches?

[Tod-13]

Fyi, 8 MOA is 2 inches at 25 yards. Did you mean 8 inches?

:o Yes. Sorry -- good catch.

Was going to edit my original post and give you credit for seeing that, but I can't after you reply. So to be clear, the M&P Pro CORE was getting 8 inch or greater (usually greater) inch groups at 25 yards.

[warpedcamshaft]

Diggin' up and updating my old thread for gits and shiggles... It was a fun at the time.

I sold the P30 to get a VP9. The VP9 shoots very well, but my skill has also increased and decreased a good amount since the original thread.

PPQ and M&P ultimately also ended up moving on. I wouldn't mind messing with the P320 and VP9 and adding the info with updated times, but I'm done with buying handguns for my own evaluation... I'm still a young punk, but I'm getting a little bit older and wiser.

[warpedcamshaft]

I also never posted my Hackathorn Standard scores on this site.

I can't remember every score, but I do remember that the PPQ was the highest score I've shot: 296 (1 c-zone hit on Left hand pickup drill and a c-zone hit at 25 yards)... with a 3rd party on the timer and scoring. I've shot a 288 from concealment with the Glock 19 Gen 3 which was the next closest in this batch.

[john c]

Diggin' up and updating my old thread for gits and shiggles... It was a fun at the time.

I sold the P30 to get a VP9. The VP9 shoots very well, but my skill has also increased and decreased a good amount since the original thread.

PPQ and M&P ultimately also ended up moving on. I wouldn't mind messing with the P320 and VP9 and adding the info with updated times, but I'm done with buying handguns for my own evaluation... I'm still a young punk, but I'm getting a little bit older and wiser.

You mention that your skill has increased and decreased over the last two years. What have gained, and what have you lost?

Also, what are your thoughts on the P30 vs VP9?

Thanks

[walker2713]

Very nice presentation....thanks for posting!

[ralph]

I've owned every one of those pistols at one time or another, and ended up selling every one... The only one I went back to was the G19....I've came to the conclusion that it works about the best for me.. I think I'm done trying the new flavor of the month.. I'm sticking with the G19 for EDC, and my Beretta Vertec, for occasional carry, and DA practice. The two seem to compliment each other..

[warpedcamshaft]

You mention that your skill has increased and decreased over the last two years. What have gained, and what have you lost?

Also, what are your thoughts on the P30 vs VP9?

Thanks

I'm better now that I was two years ago... but not as good as I was about 8-10 months ago. I've cut down on live fire practice quite a bit in the last 6 months which has taken a toll.

I like the VP9 from a shooting standpoint, really nothing to complain about with it. Very fast splits, sight tracking is pretty solid. The trigger scares me a bit, but that is just my opinion. Mine is every bit as accurate as my P30 was. In the speed game, the VP9 surely shines for me vs the P30 with the LEM.

I'm really glad they kept the P30 magazines... they are excellent.

I wish it was smaller.

I wish it was simple to disassemble and replace parts. When Bruce Gray calls something complicated, I get scared.

[Little Creek]

Following more and more posts on this forum...

The 9mm Gen 4 style Glock pistols are already in my safe or on my waist. G43, G19, G17, and G35.

[newyork]

I'm better now that I was two years ago... but not as good as I was about 8-10 months ago. I've cut down on live fire practice quite a bit in the last 6 months which has taken a toll.

I like the VP9 from a shooting standpoint, really nothing to complain about with it. Very fast splits, sight tracking is pretty solid. The trigger scares me a bit, but that is just my opinion. Mine is every bit as accurate as my P30 was. In the speed game, the VP9 surely shines for me vs the P30 with the LEM.

I'm really glad they kept the P30 magazines... they are excellent.

I wish it was smaller.

I wish it was simple to disassemble and replace parts. When Bruce Gray calls something complicated, I get scared.

Wondering what you mean by the VP9 trigger scaring you.