REVIEW: SW M&P Shield 9mm, w/ Range Results

[ST911]

I recently obtained a Smith and Wesson M&P Shield in 9mm for familiarization. Professional users of the M&P full size semi-autos have found this smaller sibling a logical choice for off-duty and as a secondary gun. The commercial market has seen these guns in constant extended backorder for its use as a concealed carry gun. Given that use and demand, I’m hoping to increase my knowledge and capabilities with this system and this sub-type in particular. The following information is posted to add to the knowledge base and serve as a reference for future inquiries. I’ll add to the info for the duration of the project and as pertinent. My interest in solely in the 9mm variant, and that’s what was obtained. This gun was purchased at retail, selected from the pile at random, and without disclosure or involvement of Smith and Wesson or any ammunition or accessory manufacturer.

Manufacturer: Smith and Wesson
Model: M&P9Shield, p/n 180021
Serial Number: HPM####
Production Date: 06/25/2013

On the web: http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category1_750001_750051_780153_-1_757781_757781

UNBOXING

The Shield ships in a cardboard box branded with the Smith and Wesson logo. The box contains a simple users manual, a youth handgun safety act handout, gun lock, orange chamber plug/flag, the Shield itself, one 7rd magazine, and one 8rd magazine with spacer. The gun was covered in a typical preservative.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield91.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield92.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield95.jpg

Initial Actions and Inspection

The Shield was field stripped, cleaned of preservative, and lubricated with Slip EWL. Function checks of the safeties and operable controls were performed and passed. This gun was equipped with a manual safety and no magazine disconnect.

Steel sights, three dot configuration.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield912.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield913.jpg

The underside of the slide contained three machined dimples, the purpose of which is not known.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield99.jpg

The underside of the barrel contains a dimple-like strike mark, which S&W advises is a hardness testing mark.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield97.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield98.jpg

The barrel’s rate of twist is 1/10. S&W advises that the Shield has had this twist rate and barrel configuration from the beginning, and is not subject to the changes with the other M&P autos.

The interior surface of the dustcover contains two molded protrusions which are reported to signify a generation of lower receiver.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield915.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield96.jpg

DRY FIRE

I did a lengthy dry fire session to acclimate myself to the Shield trigger and it’s attributes. The Shield is mechanically a single action auto but is currently identified in product literature as a “striker fired action.” Others in the M&P family have been referred to as a double action only at certain points. The longer take-up and spring resistance of the Shield create the impression of a softer and more traditional double action pull. Trigger weight is published at ~6.5#, and perceived to be about that amount. It has not been measured on a gauge. During dry fire, I noted that the easy take up led to a stiff wall of resistance prior to striker release. That wall seemed to soften a bit with repetition. I also noted that the trigger break required significant discipline to prevent disruption of the sights. After my dry fire session, I gave the gun to some others to work the action and press the trigger for a few hundred more repetitions.

<see next post>

[ST911]

LIVE FIRE

My first live fire session had several goals, including but not limited to inherent and practical accuracy assessments, my functional performance during drills and standards, and overall shootability and user friendliness of the gun. Where possible, I also set out to quantify the differences in my shooting between the Shield and my regular subcompact, the G26.

Ammunition chosen was selected based on its previous performance in other guns and likelihood of recurring use in the future. These loads were:

Black Hills Ammunition, new, 115gr JHP-XTP +P
Black Hills Ammunition, new, 124gr JHP-XTP
Federal American Eagle 115gr FMJ (#AE9DP)
Federal Americal Eagle 124gr FMJ (#AE9AP)
Federal 147gr JHP (#9MS)
Federal 147gr JHP HST (#P9HST2)
Speer Lawman 115gr TMJ (#53650)
Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ (#53620)
Herters (CCI Blazer) 115gr TNJ

EXERCISE 1

This was a slow fire bullseye exercise on B8 repair centers at 25yds. The ammo chosen for this drill was BHA’s 124gr JHP-XTP, and they were the first live rounds fired through the gun. Target results were abysmal, with a score of about 20-0X. So befuddling was this result that I fell into the trap of first questioning my equipment. A second B8 was posted at 10yds and another 10 rounds of the 124 XTPs fired. This produced a score of about 60-1X, still abysmal, but instructive.

Additional B8s were shot at the 7yd with five rounds each of the Federal 147gr JHP and the AE 124gr FMJ. These were better than the previous but still very poor. Analyzing the targets, it was clear that the errors were my own and that during the trigger press I was simply crunchensucking.

G26 Comparison: A recent 25yd, B8 slowfire drill produced a 92-2x using Federal 147gr JHP.

EXERCISE 2

This was a slow fire dot drill on 6ea 1” squares. Five rounds each of the loads below were comingled with dummy rounds and fired at 5yds. # Hits / # Missed

#1 Federal 147gr JHP (#9MS), 4 / 1
#2 Federal 147gr JHP HST (#P9HST2), 4 / 1
#3 Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ (#53620), 4 / 1
#4 Speer Lawman 115gr TMJ (#53650), 4 / 1
#5 Federal American Eagle 115gr FMJ (#AE9DP), 4 / 0
#6 Herters (CCI Blazer) 115gr TNJ, 2 / 3

Even at the 5yd line, it was clear that the Shield required a much greater amount of trigger discipline, especially at the end of the press. Though the misses were small, and to a bystander “obsessive”, they were still misses and therefore unsatisfactory. Further, they represented much larger errors that would manifest at distance if left uncorrected.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield924.jpg

EXERCISE 3

This was a slow fire dot drill on 6ea 3.5” circles as printed on the “US Customs Service CAT III” target. Five rounds each of the loads below were fired at 10yds. # Hits / # Missed

#1 Federal 147gr JHP (#9MS), 4 / 1
Lost one of over the backer. I looked and hoped two see two grease rings overlapping a single hole, but it was not to be.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield917.jpg

#2 Federal 147gr JHP HST (#P9HST2), 5 / 0
All in the circle, though disappointing in size. This is the result I was looking for on the B8 at 25yds.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield918.jpg

#3 Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ (#53620), 4 / 1
Lost one ~1.5” below the circle.
This group produced an aggressive 6:00 ejection into my forehead with a bite of my skin.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield919.jpg

#4 Speer Lawman 115gr TMJ (#53650), 5 / 0
All in, 4/5 trending right.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield920.jpg

#5 Federal American Eagle 115gr FMJ (#AE9DP), 4 / 1
Lost one ~1.5” high.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield921.jpg

#6 Herters (CCI Blazer) 115gr TNJ,
Lost one ~1.5” high and right.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield922.jpg

During each group of five, the rounds lost high or low were usually the first or second of the group.

G26 Comparison: A recent 15yd slow fire drill produced a 4rd ~1.25” group with BHA 115gr Tac-XP +P.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield916.jpg

EXERCISE 4

This was a 50rd LE course of fire testing basic proficiency, 3yds – 25yds. Score: 43/50. Noteworthy in this exercise was the loss of two rounds low and low right on the torso but remaining on the target. Two rounds running high into the lower left of the head scoring ring were made from the 25yd line. Rounds fired at the 25yd line trended right.

During this drill, the Federal 147 JHP caused a hard stoppage due to a rolled case mouth on feeding. This is entirely an ammo failing, and has been observed in recent 9MS at a rate of ~10%.

G26 Comparison: Multiple firings of this course are typically 50/50.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield923.jpg

EXERCISE 5

F.A.S.T. (Fundamentals, Accuracy, and Speed Test). Ammo used was the Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ.
Run #1: 8.73, -0H, -1B. w/ penalty, 9.73. Slide failed to lock back, overhand rack.
Run #2: 7.25, -1H, -0B. w/ penalty, 9.25.
Run #3: 7.28, -0H, -1B. w/ penalty, 8.28. Slide failed to lock back, overhand rack.

G26 Comparison: A FAST fired in April
Run #1: 6.45, -0H, -2B. w/ penalty, 8.45
Run #2: 6.5, clean
Run #3: 6.83, clean

EXERCISE 6

D1R1 to a 3x5 index card placed horizontally, 7yds, Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ
6.92, C
5.68, -1
5.37, -2
5.42, C
5.42, C

These were pretty bad. No G26 comparison data available.

EXERCISE 7

D2 to a 3x5 index card placed horizontally, 7yds, Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ
3.07, C
2.91, -2. Soft stoppage, FTE on round #2
2.84, -2
3.10, -1
2.97, C

G26 Comparison: Typical times for my G26 runs are around ~2.5 clean.

EXERCISE 8

D5 to an IPSC A-Zone at each distance. Goal time is 3 sec.
3yd, 3.13 C
5yd, 3.09 C
7yd, 3.5 C
10yd, 3.72 C

G26 Comparison: Straight 3 sec par time
3yd, Pass C
5yd, Pass C
7yd, Pass C
10yd, Fail – Over time

EXERCISE 9

This was a repeat of exercise #1, slow fire bullseye on a B8 repair center at 25yds. This run used the Black Hills Ammunition 115gr JHP-XTP +P. Score: ~63-0X. This score is a substantial improvement over the first run, but far less than the 90% expected for the drill and otherwise deemed acceptable. It does reflect my adaptation to the gun through the progression of drills, but still leaves me far from where I wanted to be by the end of the session.

SUMMARY

This was a frustrating yet educational range session. I had expected differences in handling and shooting between the Shield and G26, but clearly underestimated them. As I review the times and scores above, as well as the nuances of each round fired, I am less accurate and slower with this Shield. While it’s possible that I simply had a bad range day, I believe it's much more a shooter-system combination that needs further work to achieve potential.

Other observations:

I’d like to see a more aggressive grip surface texture to prevent slip during firing, especially as hands become wet/sweaty. This grip surface is poor.

I would remove the texturing on the underside of the trigger guard nearest the front strap. In dry handling, I started to develop some abrasion to the knuckle of my middle finger that become a sore spot in live fire. This was also noted by others handling the gun.

Trigger reset is soft in dry fire, and indistinct enough in live fire to be easily missed.

I initially didn’t care for the 8rd magazine or its insert. During reload drills though, I found that I didn’t need to adjust my grip to seat the longer magazine as I did with the shorter. My large hands and the abbreviated grip partially obstruct the empty mag well and impede mag movement. I think the pairing of the 7rd mag and 8rd magazine is probably a good one.

I’ve been spoiled by Trijicon HDs and Ameriglo I-Dot Pros on my working guns. Going back to a lower profile three-dot setup as shipped on the Shield makes me feel like I’ve gone back to the original stubby bumps found on the early 1911s.

The slide stop lever/slide release lever was STIFF on arrival but loosened up a bit with work. Despite its low profile, I still managed to hold it down while shooting and keep it from holding the slide open.

I have no use for the manual safety, and will remove the assembly and plug it if this guns stays in service to prevent accidental activation.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/Shield914.jpg

Ejection of empty cases was strong and distinct, except for the two cases of 6:00 ejection noted above. Ejection was so strong, that despite shooting in the middle of the range nearly all my brass fell neatly several lanes to my right. This occurred regardless of ammunition.

Though I am not a fan of modifying OEM components with aftermarket options, I’m curious what one of the available trigger kits would do for that stiff break and resulting hits on target at speed.

Total rounds fired: 218

[warpedcamshaft]

Enjoyable read... thanks for posting.

[YVK]

I am not impressed with the Shield, but I am very impressed with meticulousness of your review. Thank you.

[JBP55]

Thanks for a great review.

[fixer]

Awesome review.

Another member here had an issue with accuracy in the first rounds of a magazine. I can't recall what the outcome was (thinking...different barrel?).

I've been very tempted to get a Shield. However every time I handle one, I just don't see enough benefit over a G26 to jump into one.

From your impression, is there any clear benefit to the Shield vs the G26?

[JBP55]

Awesome review.

Another member here had an issue with accuracy in the first rounds of a magazine. I can't recall what the outcome was (thinking...different barrel?).

I've been very tempted to get a Shield. However every time I handle one, I just don't see enough benefit over a G26 to jump into one.

From your impression, is there any clear benefit to the Shield vs the G26?



The only advantage I see in a Shield vs. a G26 is less bulk and there are times for less bulk.. I see a G26 as superior otherwise but normally step up to a G19.

[JodyH]

My wife's Shield has been a great pistol, it has replaced the Glock 26 as her CCW.
100% reliable so far and extremely accurate.
I replaced the sights with Ameriglo ProGlo front and plain black U-notch rear for a HD/Hackathorn style setup, that was a big improvement.
The biggest advantage the Shield has over the G26 is the width, that was a big deal for my wife in dressing around the gun.

[Clay]

The biggest advantage the Shield has over the G26 is the width, that was a big deal for my wife in dressing around the gun.

+1. Same for my wife. The Shield is perfect for her.

[GJM]

Same for my wife, although she is using a Kahr MK9 for when the 26 is too wide. I suspect what makes the Shield attractive to carry, it's thinness, works against it in shooting feel.

[Clusterfrack]

The Shield seems like a good gun. I found the grip too narrow for good ergos for me, but no worse than other similar options. The 26 works so much better for me. As well mag compatibility with larger Glock 9mms is a big plus.

[LSP972]

I've had one for a month or so. I've put about 300 rounds through it, all up close and very little rapid work, as I only have the two issued magazines and no holster. No malfunctions with various factory offerings and my reloads so far; accuracy more than acceptable (remembering its all been close... 5-7 yards) so far; the trigger... well, its a "striker-fired" trigger. Not my favorite, but so far (those two cryptic words again) I haven't had anything to really complain about.

I heard this morning that my holster and mag pouch should be ready tomorrow, so when I get those items I'll begin some serious work-ups and evaluation, including the 25 yard/B8 gig.

I have been experiencing some gradual discomfort (i.e., at the end of the day) with my usual EDC, an HK45C. Dunno if I'm just getting to be a wimp in my old age, have a nerve impingement problem, or whatever. But it is getting to be a problem. I bought this Shield on a whim, mainly due to the thinness. I too will have trouble picking up these sights at speed; the question is, how MUCH trouble. We'll see.

I have four magazines on back-order from Brownell's, and haven't bothered to make an effort to find some anywhere else. Anyone have a clue where to get them? If I decide to put this piece into service, I'll certainly need more.

So far ;) , I've been rather lukewarm toward this little pistol. The concept is excellent; the execution... well, we'll see.

And that safety has to go. I've held off deactivating it, in case my underwhelm-ment (?) continues and I decide to get rid of it. The TPI thread links to an excellent tutorial on how to do it.

.

[JodyH]

I have four magazines on back-order from Brownell's, and haven't bothered to make an effort to find some anywhere else. Anyone have a clue where to get them?
Cabelas

[Savage Hands]

You're review is way more detailed than I'm going to have with my XDs 9mm, I should have you review mine lol.

[LSP972]

Cabelas

Nope.

I tried both my local store and the main company/mail order.

Thanks, though.

.

[ST911]

You're review is way more detailed than I'm going to have with my XDs 9mm, I should have you review mine lol.

I'll have some XDs data in here eventually, as its one of the intended comparison pieces. I'm playing with the LC9 right now.

[ST911]

UPDATE

Since the first handling and exercises above I continued dry fire work at home, focusing particularly on trigger press. What little progress I seemed to make with the Shield came slowly but still felt like improvement. I was able to hit the range again yesterday (7/25) for additional live fire.

In addition to the Shield, I brought along a Ruger LC9. The LC9 is another popular subcompact competitor and a logical comparison. My LC9 experience is limited, and I had no data on record. This particular LC9 is the LC9-LM variant, equipped with the Lasermax red laser module as further detailed here: http://www.ruger.com/products/lc9/models.html

EXERCISE 1

M&P Shield
B8 Bullseye, slow fire using Black Hills Ammunition 124gr JHP-XTP
@ 25yds, 36-0X
@ 10yds, 96-2X

Ruger LC9
B8 Bullseye, slow fire using Black Hills Ammunition 115gr EXP
@ 25yds, 76-0X
@ 10yds, 92-2X

Both Shield results were better than last time and had greater consistency on target. The 25yd result remains seriously disappointing. Results with the LC9 were disappointing as well, but seemed to support that the Shield and I just don’t seem to be communicating effectively.

EXERCISE 2

D2 from a concealment to a 3x5 index card placed horizontally @ 7yds, 10 repetitions. Herters 115gr TNJ

M&P Shield
Lowest clean: 2.97
Highest clean: 4.10 (fumbled draw)
Average, all runs: 3.48

Ruger LC9
Lowest clean: 3.21
Highest clean: 3.69
Average, all runs: 3.38

I had a couple of soft 6:00 ejections from the Shield on this drill, both striking my right forearm.

EXERCISE 3

D5 to an IPSC A Zone from concealment, 3yds-10yds. Herters 115gr TNJ

M&P Shield
3yds, 2.94 C
5yds, 3.31 C
7yds, 3.87 C
10yds, 4.18 -2

Ruger LC9
3yds, 3.73 C
5yds, 3.61 C
7yds, 3.84 C
10yds, 4.14 -1

There wasn’t much difference on the Shield between first and second sessions. The LC9 wasn’t as different as I thought it would be on the timer, though perceptually each of those five trigger presses took forever. Shot groupings on the Shield were much tighter than with the LC9 at each yard line.

EXERCISE 4

F.A.S.T., Herters 115gr TNJ, from concealment

M&P Shield
7.18, -1H, -3B, 12.18 w/ penalties
8.38, C
7.27, -0H, -1B, 8.27 w/ penalties

The wheels fell off…nay, the car went careening off the road…on run 1, but 2 and 3 weren’t dramatically different than the first session. The slide failed to lock back on all rounds requiring an overhand rack due to my grip.

I had no spare mag for the LC9, and was not able to shoot the FAST with it.

SUMMARY

Concealment methods above were AIWB beneath an untucked tee shirt.

Progress is slow.

Total rounds on the Shield this session: 78
Shield cumulative total: 296

COMPARISON PICS

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3720.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3721.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3722.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3728.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3730.jpg

[Savage Hands]

I'll have some XDs data in here eventually, as its one of the intended comparison pieces. I'm playing with the LC9 right now.



Thank you sir! :cool:

[ST911]

UPDATE

I was able to hit the range again this week (7/30) for some more live fire. Tuesday’s work was to continue to assess the shield, and now compare it to another of its competitors, the Springfield Armory XDs subcompact in 9mm. See it on the web here: http://xdspistol.com/

EXERCISE 1

M&P Shield
B8 Bullseye, slow fire using Black Hills Ammunition 124gr JHP-XTP
@ 25yds, 57-0X
@ 10yds, 90-1X

SAI XDs
B8 Bullseye, slow fire using Black Hills Ammunition 124gr JHP-XTP
@ 25yds, 84-0X
@ 10yds, 98-5X

The Shield results at 25yd continue to improve. This run was a nicer cluster of rounds, distinctly high and to the right approximately 4” off the X. 10yd performance had a slight decline, but a better grouping of rounds.

Results with the XDs were better than I had expected. The 25yd group ran high ~3-4” but was nicely clustered.

EXERCISE 2

D5 to an IPSC A Zone from concealment, 3yds-10yds. The ammunition used for this exercise was Federal Hydra-Shok 124gr, p/n P9HS1G.

M&P Shield
3yds, 2.73, C
5yds, 2.76, -3
7yds, 3.84, -1
10yds, 4.03, -1

SAI XDs
3yds, 2.81, C
5yds, 2.94, -1
7yds, 3.30, -1
10yds, 3.76, C

This exercise produced some faster run times with the Shield than in prior sessions, but poorer accuracy as I pushed forward to test the limits. Overall results with the XDs were good, and it had the edge during this particular test.

EXERCISE 3

D2 from a concealment to a 3x5 index card placed horizontally @ 7yds, 10 repetitions. The ammunition used for exercise was Federal Hydra-Shok 124gr, p/n P9HS1G.

M&P Shield
Lowest clean: 2.92
Highest clean: 3.27
Average, all runs: 2.95

SAI XDs
Lowest clean: 2.58
Highest clean: 3.23
Average, all runs: 2.79

The XDs nudged out the Shield in this test. The rounds that missed the card struck closer to its borders than with the Shield.

EXERCISE 4

LAPD SWAT “A Course”, 50 rounds, 3-25yds. The ammunition used for exercise was Federal Hydra-Shok 124gr, p/n P9HS1G. Note not only the raw score, but the spreads of the rounds on target. Scoring zone is a B21-type.

During this exercise, the M&P experienced another FTE, this time at the 15yd line, which was cleared and the course continued.

M&P Shield - 47/50

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3758.jpg

SAI XDs - 48/50

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3759.jpg

EXERCISE 5

State of Maine DPS Criminal Justice Academy, “Plain Clothes Pistol Qualification Course”. 50 rounds, 3-18yds. The ammunition used for exercise was Federal Hydra-Shok 147gr, p/n P9HS2G. The target used for scoring was an IPSC A-Zone paired with the 3x5 index card for the failure drill shots. You can download the course here: http://www.maine.gov/dps/mcja/forms/documents/PlainClothesPistolQualificationCourse2011.doc

During this exercise, the M&P experienced a second FTE for this range session at the 7yd line, which was cleared and the course continued. One round was not fired.

M&P Shield - 44/49
SAI XDs – 45/50

As on the LAPD course, rounds from the Shield were a larger cluster than the XDs.

EXERCISE 6

An additional ~21 rounds were fired through the Shield by a disinterested citizen happening onto the range during the session. No quantitative data was obtained. Subjective observations from the shooter described the gun as “feels nice”, and “that was fun.” Observed performance on target showed that the shooter easily kept their rounds in the black on a B8 bullseye at ~5yds.

SUMMARY

Concealment methods above were 3:00 OWB beneath an untucked tee shirt.

Continued handling and shooting of the Shield has worn a sore at the inside base of my left thumb near the web. This spot corresponds to the location of the safety lever on the Shield when gripping the gun. An additional sore is rising on the top of my right knuckle, due to the grip texturing on the underside of the trigger guard.

One thing I’ve been pondering in further handling and shooting of the Shield is the grip shape. In comparing the guns in this size class, the Shield’s grip is a more pronounced long oval than others and there is not as much definitive contact or memory spots for my long hands. This may be contributing to some of my issues, and will get further consideration.

The two additional stoppages, both FTEs, were disappointing. One each occurred with 124 and 147gr Hydra-Shok ammunition, which are known to be reliable in other guns. Both loads functioned in the XDs without stoppage. Ejection was otherwise vigorous in the Shield with these loads, several feet to ~4:00-5:00. No 6:00 ejections were noted.

There are now a total of three of these stoppages in rounds to date, <500. All of these occurred with ammunition that is known-good in other guns, and when the Shield has been cleaned prior to that range session. An armorer will be consulted and more detailed inspection performed, as this failure rate is unacceptable.

If these stoppages are satisfactorily resolved, I’ll be exploring options for trigger quality improvement as this develops.

Credit where credit is due to the XDs on this one.

Total rounds on the Shield this session: 180
Shield cumulative total: 476

COMPARISON PICS

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3751.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3752.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3755.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3753.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3761.jpg

Four guns to date, more to follow.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3750.jpg

[Savage Hands]

I got to try out my XDs 9 last Friday with CCI Blazer Brass and it shot well out to 25 yards except it was to the left :o The next day it was inspected in good lighting and the rear sight favored the left side and was corrected, hopefully another range report soon.

25 yards standing unsupported at about one shot every 3 seconds.

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad251/SShenaniguns/IMG_20130726_223737_zps8fbe3388.jpg

[GJM]

Does the striker protrude on the XDs, like a PPS, so you can block it with your thumb when reholstering?

[Savage Hands]

Does the striker protrude on the XDs, like a PPS, so you can block it with your thumb when reholstering?


Negative

[JBP55]

I've had one for a month or so. I've put about 300 rounds through it, all up close and very little rapid work, as I only have the two issued magazines and no holster. No malfunctions with various factory offerings and my reloads so far; accuracy more than acceptable (remembering its all been close... 5-7 yards) so far; the trigger... well, its a "striker-fired" trigger. Not my favorite, but so far (those two cryptic words again) I haven't had anything to really complain about.

I heard this morning that my holster and mag pouch should be ready tomorrow, so when I get those items I'll begin some serious work-ups and evaluation, including the 25 yard/B8 gig.

I have been experiencing some gradual discomfort (i.e., at the end of the day) with my usual EDC, an HK45C. Dunno if I'm just getting to be a wimp in my old age, have a nerve impingement problem, or whatever. But it is getting to be a problem. I bought this Shield on a whim, mainly due to the thinness. I too will have trouble picking up these sights at speed; the question is, how MUCH trouble. We'll see.

I have four magazines on back-order from Brownell's, and haven't bothered to make an effort to find some anywhere else. Anyone have a clue where to get them? If I decide to put this piece into service, I'll certainly need more.

So far ;) , I've been rather lukewarm toward this little pistol. The concept is excellent; the execution... well, we'll see.

And that safety has to go. I've held off deactivating it, in case my underwhelm-ment (?) continues and I decide to get rid of it. The TPI thread links to an excellent tutorial on how to do it.

.


Hebert's has some in stock now but they are $40 each.

[MGW]

The Shield seems like a good gun. I found the grip too narrow for good ergos for me, but no worse than other similar options. The 26 works so much better for me. As well mag compatibility with larger Glock 9mms is a big plus.

I had the same issue with the Shield. The XDs fits me so much better and I shoot it better even though its a 45. I want to move to the 9mm eventually. I know there has been discussion about the grip safety being a potential problem area for the XD series of pistols. It's the only thing that makes me hesitate.

The other complaint I've heard about the XDs 9mm is that it's to heavy. From what I have read it weighs the same loaded as the 45 does loaded so it really is a non issue for me.

I think a big plus for the XDs is there are a lot more sight options than the shield.

[DGI]

I found a deal on a Shield 9mm a couple months back and finally had a chance to shoot and evaluate it.

After 4 magazines through the pistol, Im putting it for sale.

Its too thin for my grip and rotates in my hand under recoil. I have a G26 on the way and with a G19 already in rotation, it will be a winning option for sure.

Thanks for the input, glad to see im not the only one that doesn't like this thing.

[Comedian]

Anyone compare the Shield with the Walther PPS?

[JodyH]

Anyone compare the Shield with the Walther PPS?
Six vs. a half dozen.
Mag release is the only real difference.

[ST911]

Anyone compare the Shield with the Walther PPS?


Six vs. a half dozen.
Mag release is the only real difference.

I had the Walther PPS on the list of comparison guns, and may get to it. My experience with the PPS in .40 doesn't make me very interested in it though. Nothing quantified and not a lot of trigger time, but enough to know that .40 sucks in that gun, and in 9mm I think I'd end up with a solid "meh."

I think the next interesting aspect to all this isn't in comparison to others, but in getting this Shield out to others, and getting someone's trigger pack in it.

[Corvus]

Just a guess but on the dimple marks on the inside of the slide. Perhaps a way to know which CNC machine the slides come off of to track any QA issues that might come up. Instead of a tool change the slides could just be dimpled with a cutter used to machine the slide. Number of dimples matches machine number ???? I think I have read somewhere that this method is used to mark components.

[LSP972]

Hebert's has some in stock now but they are $40 each.

Thanks... moot point now.

See next post...
.

[LSP972]

Its too thin for my grip and rotates in my hand under recoil.

Ditto. I was appalled at my groups from the holster... enough that I got my car gun and burned through two magazines of "duty" ammo to see if I had suddenly gone full retard. Nope, shot that one just fine.

Another 100 rounds of this was enough. I was wasting ammunition. Best I can tell, this particular grip shape/size is very difficult for me to get proper deflection on during a presentation at speed. The first round is close enough, but I'm losing the second one more often than not; usually out the top but to the left as well. IOW, my sloppy grip is causing me to mangle the trigger press. Also, my trigger finger was bumping the front of the trigger guard as I went from "ready" (finger outside of the trigger guard) to "shoot" (finger on the trigger, pressing) during the press-out. It was quite distracting. No fault of the gun, of course; taking my time in deliberate slow fire, groups are more than satisfactory.

Oh well. Another good idea that didn't work out. I might be able to improve matters with a lot of work and trigger time, but the pistol simply does not interest me enough to invest all of that. But the weight thing- my EDC HK45C is becoming bothersome (noticeable discomfort as the day progresses) to carry- is still hanging over my head... and I just extinguished the mini-9mm option (the other guns in this genre- Ruger LC9, Kahr P9, Sig P290, Beretta Nano, Rohrbaugh, are of zero interest to me, for various reasons).

Hmmm.... Given that I won't go below .380 Long Rifle as a primary carry caliber, my options are shrinking... rapidly.

.

[JodyH]

But the weight thing- my EDC HK45C is becoming bothersome (noticeable discomfort as the day progresses) to carry- is still hanging over my head... and I just extinguished the mini-9mm option
P2000SK 9mm
It will feel like a mini-HK45C (I have both and they're very similar, especially if both are LEM).
Very close in size to the Shield, just has a slightly thicker grip.
Loaded weights are close as well.
Shield 8+1 124gr. = 1lb 9oz.
P2000SK 10+1 124gr. = 1lb 13oz.
HK45C 8+1 230gr. = 2lb 3oz.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/20130803_164726_zpsf1789599.jpg

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/20130803_164845_1_zps8fd4f93d.jpg

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/20130803_165551_zps71edd393.jpg

[Clyde from Carolina]

P2000SK 9mm

Probably my next gun; love the P2000. Have two now, no thanks to Jody. :cool:

[JodyH]

When I'm traveling and only have room for one gun... it's always the SK.
Nightstand duty with a TLR-3 and a 13 round x-grip P2000 mag inserted.
It pulls AIWB duty with either a 10 round mag or a 13 round mag.
If I choose my clothes (Duluth cargo shorts or pants) it'll even do pocket carry in a Nemesis holster.
btw: all my magazines (10's and 13's) have flat floorplates installed.

If I was to lose my entire gun collection in a boating accident, the first thing I'd buy would be a P2000SK 9mm LEM.

[LSP972]

I looked at this one when I was "converting" my wife to HK. Neither of us liked it, because the BS finger groove hump is in exactly the wrong place; for both of us. She ended up choosing the P2000, and later the P30.

I don't think I've ever actually shot one of these. So I need to remedy that; I didn't realize the sizes were so close. Are those weights actual (that you measured) or taken from HK literature? The HSLD dope scale we have at the lab shows an HK45C with nine 230gr pills at 2.2 pounds. A Glock 19 with 16 rounds of 147gr HST (and a Docter RDS) is 1.75 pounds. I suspect the P2000SK will be somewhere in between those.

Thanks, I never even thought about this one. Probably because I did consider the G26, but the weight loss on it (and I cannot remember what it was) was inconsequential compared to the G19, so why not keep the added capacity and controllability for a couple of extra ounces?

Now to find somebody around here with one in 9mm...

.

[JodyH]

Actual weights measured by me.

[JodyH]

On the same scale a Glock 19 with 16 rounds of 124gr. is 1lb 15oz.
It's hard to beat a Glock 19 when it comes to the size:weight:capacity:shootability ratios.
But the H&K LEM trigger/hammer is what seals the deal for me carrying AIWB.

[Clyde from Carolina]

On the same scale a Glock 19 with 16 rounds of 124gr. is 1lb 15oz.
It's hard to beat a Glock 19 when it comes to the size:weight:capacity:shootability ratios.
But the H&K LEM trigger/hammer is what seals the deal for me carrying AIWB.

Word.

[LSP972]

I don't carry AIWB, I carry "normal" (strong side @ 3:00) IWB. I toted a G19 for many years on the job, in plainclothes, so I'm comfortable with one. But I too prefer a hammer gun for concealed carry.

All my HKs are LEM. I put NY1 springs in my Glocks, which makes them a bit less ND-capable, but of course nothing beats the thumb-over-the-hammer for re-holstering safety.

.

[ST911]

Thanks for adding some useful data to the thread guys. Appreciated.


But I too prefer a hammer gun for concealed carry.

Tell me why?

[JodyH]

Tell me why?

nothing beats the thumb-over-the-hammer for re-holstering safety.
ditto
:cool:

[GJM]

six letter word, begins with G, ends with t, and two vowels

[JodyH]

six letter word, begins with G, ends with t, and two vowels
And you can buy one where?

[Shellback]

I've been contemplating getting one for the wife. Great info in this thread, thanks.

[JodyH]

My wife loves her Shield.
I added an Ameriglo Pro Glo front and plain black U notch rear sight for a "Hackathorn" style sight picture.
She carries it AIWB in either a Fist #1K or a Pistol Wear belly band or if that's not possible it goes in her gun purse.
Right now it has around 500 rounds through it with zero issues other than it shoots about 2" high at 25 yards.
She shoots it much better than she ever has a Glock 26 and almost as well as she does her PPQ.

[Shellback]

My wife loves her Shield.
I added an Ameriglo Pro Glo front and plain black U notch rear sight for a "Hackathorn" style sight picture.
She carries it AIWB in either a Fist #1K or a Pistol Wear belly band or if that's not possible it goes in her gun purse.
Right now it has around 500 rounds through it with zero issues other than it shoots about 2" high at 25 yards.
She shoots it much better than she ever has a Glock 26 and almost as well as she does her PPQ.

Good stuff. Waiting to find one of these in a local store so she can go see one first hand.

[LSP972]

Thanks for adding some useful data to the thread guys. Appreciated.



Tell me why?

The re-holstering thing.

.

[MGW]

When I'm traveling and only have room for one gun... it's always the SK.
Nightstand duty with a TLR-3 and a 13 round x-grip P2000 mag inserted.
It pulls AIWB duty with either a 10 round mag or a 13 round mag.
If I choose my clothes (Duluth cargo shorts or pants) it'll even do pocket carry in a Nemesis holster.
btw: all my magazines (10's and 13's) have flat floorplates installed.

If I was to lose my entire gun collection in a boating accident, the first thing I'd buy would be a P2000SK 9mm LEM.

I hate it when you flash your HK porn. How does the size of SK compare to a G19?

On a related note I decided to see if the G19 would fit the Mr. Softy I had in da box for my XDs and it fit perfectly. Just had to back the retention off a bit. There is no reasonable explanation for it fiting but it does. The XDs will not fit a G19 size Bare asset though which is a canted version of the Mr. Softy.

So I carried it the entire weekend (AIWB) and honestly didn't notice a difference between carrying it and the XDs. I might have to eat crow about the XDs being the best cheese since cheese was invented. Note I shoot the G19 shite tons better than the little XD and I don't shoot the s that badly.

Now it's got me thinking about a horsehide Hideaway for the G19. I have a trooper buddy that wants the XDs bad.

Fark.

Edit just read the weights you posted. Do you have any comparison pics?

[JodyH]

I hate it when you flash your HK porn. How does the size of SK compare to a G19?
The SK is sized about halfway between a 26 and the 19.
It has the same slide length as a 26, but the grip length is between the 26 and 19.

Glock 26, H&K SK, Glock 19
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/20130804_194450_zps233e03be.jpg

[t101]

I am really surprised that in all of the firearms you surveyed, you didn't look at a PPS. Despite some of the negative comments previously posted by people who don't seem to own one, it might be the way to go. It is roughly the same size as the Shield, but is a little longer and appears a little thinner. In 9mm, it is an extremely accurate, midly recoiling gun that would have a similar manual of arms as your HK (mag release). You would have options of 6, 7, or 8 round mags.

I have ran mine as a back up at work for 5 years now with no problems. I put the large backstrap on right out of the box. I have large hands and have had no issues with the gun rotating in my grip when I fire it.

[JodyH]

I really like the PPS.
Shoots good and carries well.

My biggest issue is with Walther-USA and the lack of interest they show in supporting their guns.
Parts... "Yea we think we might be getting something in sometime." "You want what? Sorry can't sell that part to you."
Magazines... "It came with two, what more do you need? I think we have some P38 magazines back here somewhere for $129 each."
Service... "We're waiting on parts."

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/20130514_163057_zps6037e73b.jpg

[MGW]

I'll have some XDs data in here eventually, as its one of the intended comparison pieces. I'm playing with the LC9 right now.

I think it would be interesting if you put. Gen4 G26 into the mix. I'm now seriously considering ditching the single stack 9 fetish and picking one of these up.

[LSP972]

I think it would be interesting if you put. Gen4 G26 into the mix.

As long as you keep in mind that the G26 is in another "class". I have one, but its thickness negates the chopped grip and slide/barrel... IOW, a G19 carries just as easily for my needs (IWB holster at 3:30).

However... one thing the G26 excels at is mexican carry under a tucked-in polo shirt. I know, not a good idea, but some circumstances can dictate unusual practices. I was doing this before the advent of "tuckable" holsters, and was daily in situations where a small auto or J frame just wasn't "enough". These days, I can dress as I please without worrying about looking "professional", so I use a holster. And there is simply no gain to employing a G26 versus the larger piece that carries more beans... in MY situation. The G19 conceals just as well.

All my opinion, of course.

.

[ST911]

I touched on the G26 and referenced performance times earlier, but I thought about refreshing it a bit.

Swamped right now with paying work, but will have some new stuff to put up in the very near future.

[GJM]

As long as you keep in mind that the G26 is in another "class". I have one, but its thickness negates the chopped grip and slide/barrel... IOW, a G19 carries just as easily for my needs (IWB holster at 3:30).

However... one thing the G26 excels at is mexican carry under a tucked-in polo shirt. I know, not a good idea, but some circumstances can dictate unusual practices. I was doing this before the advent of "tuckable" holsters, and was daily in situations where a small auto or J frame just wasn't "enough". These days, I can dress as I please without worrying about looking "professional", so I use a holster. And there is simply no gain to employing a G26 versus the larger piece that carries more beans... in MY situation. The G19 conceals just as well.

All my opinion, of course.

.

I think a 19, cut to 26 butt dimensions, gives you the best of both of a 19 and 26. You can run flat 26 mags for min profile, or larger magazines as you please.

[JHC]

As long as you keep in mind that the G26 is in another "class". I have one, but its thickness negates the chopped grip and slide/barrel... IOW, a G19 carries just as easily for my needs (IWB holster at 3:30).

However... one thing the G26 excels at is mexican carry under a tucked-in polo shirt. I know, not a good idea, but some circumstances can dictate unusual practices. I was doing this before the advent of "tuckable" holsters, and was daily in situations where a small auto or J frame just wasn't "enough". These days, I can dress as I please without worrying about looking "professional", so I use a holster. And there is simply no gain to employing a G26 versus the larger piece that carries more beans... in MY situation. The G19 conceals just as well.

All my opinion, of course.

.

Did you use Condition 3 in that application? [not trolling; I think in some circumstances #3 is viable ;) ]

[t101]

I really like the PPS.
Shoots good and carries well.

My biggest issue is with Walther-USA and the lack of interest they show in supporting their guns.
Parts... "Yea we think we might be getting something in sometime." "You want what? Sorry can't sell that part to you."
Magazines... "It came with two, what more do you need? I think we have some P38 magazines back here somewhere for $129 each."
Service... "We're waiting on parts."

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/20130514_163057_zps6037e73b.jpg

I can't speak to any problems as I haven't needed to send mine in or order parts over the course of my ownership. Which reminds me that I should order a new recoil spring soon.

As for the mags, expensive yes, but he already owns an HK and is used to that. I have always been able to find as many mags as I want at my local gun stores and through Top Gun Supply.

[WDW]

My wife loves her Shield. She actually enjoys shooting it.
http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/10mm4me/image_zpsbefe9a17.jpg (http://s865.photobucket.com/user/10mm4me/media/image_zpsbefe9a17.jpg.html)

[LSP972]

Did you use Condition 3 in that application? [not trolling; I think in some circumstances #3 is viable ;) ]

Nope. Although you make a valid point, when carrying this way you're dealing with enough as it is... i.e., you gotta rip the shirt tail up out of the way, get a decent grip on the pistol, and present. Having to rack the slide during the press-out... well... sorry, not for me.

The trick was getting the pistol settled into place. With a fully tucked-in shirt, I dropped piece into the open collar and worked it down to the 3:00 position, easing it into place inside the waistband. I was always nervous doing that. Once there, the squat and angular lines of the pistol held it in place, rather comfortably actually, all day; with no danger of pinching the trigger. I did try two things; the sheath that covers the trigger guard and attaches to a belt loop (don't remember the name of that thing), and the notorious Safe-T Block. Neither worked worth a shit, in MY application. That Safe-T Block is a perfect example of an engineer who has a little knowledge, with too much time on his hands.

.

[JHC]

Nope. Although you make a valid point, when carrying this way you're dealing with enough as it is... i.e., you gotta rip the shirt tail up out of the way, get a decent grip on the pistol, and present. Having to rack the slide during the press-out... well... sorry, not for me.

The trick was getting the pistol settled into place. With a fully tucked-in shirt, I dropped piece into the open collar and worked it down to the 3:00 position, easing it into place inside the waistband. I was always nervous doing that. Once there, the squat and angular lines of the pistol held it in place, rather comfortably actually, all day; with no danger of pinching the trigger. I did try two things; the sheath that covers the trigger guard and attaches to a belt loop (don't remember the name of that thing), and the notorious Safe-T Block. Neither worked worth a shit, in MY application. That Safe-T Block is a perfect example of an engineer who has a little knowledge, with too much time on his hands.

.

Thanks, I played around with this yesterday using the "sheath that covers the trigger guard " - RCS Vanguard and could loop the tether through the belt as an auto-remove anchor. At the end of the day I guess the Smart Carry does it a little better. Thanks for the details.

[Kennydale]

Have a Neighbor & friend who will be doing security work in an office bldg. His company requires their officers to be certified (Basic HG class & TX.CHL). Though he was in the Navy for many years, he hasn't shot a handgun in a longtime. I would recommend the 9mm Shield to him and this review.

[Nephrology]

Have a Neighbor & friend who will be doing security work in an office bldg. His company requires their officers to be certified (Basic HG class & TX.CHL). Though he was in the Navy for many years, he hasn't shot a handgun in a longtime. I would recommend the 9mm Shield to him and this review.

Is carrying openly part of his job? If so, I'd probably go with something bigger...

[JHC]

Have a Neighbor & friend who will be doing security work in an office bldg. His company requires their officers to be certified (Basic HG class & TX.CHL). Though he was in the Navy for many years, he hasn't shot a handgun in a longtime. I would recommend the 9mm Shield to him and this review.

But why? Why not something easier to get up to speed with?

[MGW]

Nope. Although you make a valid point, when carrying this way you're dealing with enough as it is... i.e., you gotta rip the shirt tail up out of the way, get a decent grip on the pistol, and present. Having to rack the slide during the press-out... well... sorry, not for me.

The trick was getting the pistol settled into place. With a fully tucked-in shirt, I dropped piece into the open collar and worked it down to the 3:00 position, easing it into place inside the waistband. I was always nervous doing that. Once there, the squat and angular lines of the pistol held it in place, rather comfortably actually, all day; with no danger of pinching the trigger. I did try two things; the sheath that covers the trigger guard and attaches to a belt loop (don't remember the name of that thing), and the notorious Safe-T Block. Neither worked worth a shit, in MY application. That Safe-T Block is a perfect example of an engineer who has a little knowledge, with too much time on his hands.

.

I've tried this with a couple other pistols using a MIC style setup and couldn't make it work. I've read about it and it seems like it should work but couldn't pull it off. A Glock on the other hand might work better. Yet another reason to buy a 26 :)

[ST911]

Have a Neighbor & friend who will be doing security work in an office bldg. His company requires their officers to be certified (Basic HG class & TX.CHL). Though he was in the Navy for many years, he hasn't shot a handgun in a longtime. I would recommend the 9mm Shield to him and this review.

I would steer him to a full size or compact auto.

[ST911]

UPDATE 08/10

Since my last update I’ve been doing more dry fire at home trying to get along with the trigger. As I work, I find that trigger finger placement relative to the hinge has more effect on my press than I thought. My hand size and finger length give me an inclination to place it higher above the hinge, sometimes in contact with the receiver, producing a poorer press. The sweet spot is lower, at or below the hinge, giving me a better press. The downside is that it forces a tweak in my finger and hand due to their length. The narrowness of the grip and long oval have been interesting in these ways.

I went to the range today for more live fire. I was more in the mood for shooting than contemplation and analysis, so I brought several LE courses of fire and assorted loads to run.

EXERCISE 1

D5 to an ISPC A-Zone from concealment, Federal 124gr Hydra-Shok (P9HSG1)
7yd, 3.62 C
7yd, 3.00 C

EXERCISE 2

D5 to a B8 center from concealment, Federal 124gr Hydra-Shok (P9HSG1)
7yd, 4.10, 46/50
7yd, 3.47, 42/50

EXERCISE 3-6

A series of LE qualification courses to run the gun against different times and scoring. These courses combined offer static marksmanship measures; dual targets; reloads; kneeling, prone, barricade shooting; and failure drills.

South Dakota state LE qualification, 50 rounds, 3-25yds, Federal 115gr +P+ (9BPLE)
On the web: NA
B21 target, 48/50

LAPD SWAT “A Course”, 50rds, 3-25yds, Federal 147gr Hydra-Shok (P9HS2G)
B21 target, 45/50

Nebraska state LE qualification, 50 rounds, 3-15yds, Winchester 124gr FMJ NATO (Q4318)
On the web: http://www.nletc.state.ne.us/pdfs/FireQual.pdf
IALEFI Q target, 48/50
One FTE at the 7yd line (see pic below), cleared without issue

Maine state LE qualification, 50 rounds, 3-25yds, 124gr Hydra-Shok (P9HSG1)
On the web: http://www.maine.gov/dps/mcja/forms/documents/LawEnforcementPistolQualificationCourse2011.doc
TQ15 target, 45/50

EXERCISE 7

F.A.S.T., (Fundamentals, Accuracy, and Speed Test), Federal 115gr +P+ (9BPLE)
Run1: 7.24, -1H, 9.24 w/ penalties
Run2: 7.08 Clean
Run3: 7.07 Clean

EXERCISE 8

5rd slow fire to B8, 10yds, Federal 115gr +P+ (9BPLE), 45-1X/50

SUMMARY

I’m not seeing significant differences in scores and times, but they are improving. More important is that I’m trending greater consistency in results on target which helps bring everything into sync with the gun a little better.

Shooting the 9BLE in this gun wasn’t as brisk as I thought it would be. Had I shot the gun without knowing what was in it, I would have guessed it was a different load.

There was one FTE this session (noted above), and another soft 6:00 ejection. I perceived a second, weak 6:00 ejection but I can’t tell you anything meaningful about it. Here’s a pic from today, which is exactly what occurred with the others as well.

The spacer sleeve on the 8rd magazine has worn to the point that it moves on its own somewhat freely. Back in the box it goes. I found it to be without much use anyway, so nothing is lost.

I have a nice little hot spot from the safety lever on the inside of my strong side thumb from the manual safety. Less wear on my middle finger than before, but the texturing still has to go.

After the last session, I started carrying the Shield a bit. In pocket carry, I’ve found it too tall for fast presentation in most pants, even those with generous pocket openings. The Shield is very ankle friendly and rides nicely there. It rode well attached to body armor under a uniform shirt.

I’m actively looking for a 3:00 OWB option as well. I want the smallest possible footprint on the belt, minimalist form, but quality construction. Feel free to add your recommendations here in the thread.

Total rounds on the Shield this session: 243
Shield cumulative total: 719

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3913Large.jpg

[MGW]

Really enjoying reading about your testing. Hope you keep it up!

[ST911]

UPDATE

Several folks asked for a comparison between the Shield and the M&P 9C. I had originally ruled it out, as the project was intended to compare offerings of smaller, sub-compact models. The 9C is much more of a mid-size, compact auto having more in common with Glocks 19/23 and others of the same size and weight class. Nonetheless, it’s likely that folks looking at the smaller guns in the M&P line will consider both, so a comparison isn’t unthinkable.

EXERCISE 1

300pt aggregate, B8 bullseye @ 25yds, 10rds each off-hand, strong hand only, support hand only. Ammunition used was the Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ (#53620).

M&P Shield
OH: 49-1X (Second run: 78)
SHO: 32
WHO: 34
Total, 3 runs: 115

M&P 9C
OH: 79-2X (Second run: 78-1X)
SHO: 20
WHO: 69
Total, 3 runs: 168

The 9C is more forgiving of error than the Shield, but still required more of me than I was able to provide. I did note that the second run of the off-hand portion with the Shield was the best run to date.

EXERCISE 2

D2 from concealment to 3x5 index card placed horizontally @ 7yds, 10 repetitions. Ammunition used was the Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ (#53620).

M&P Shield
Lowest clean: 2.90
Highest clean: 3.33
Average, all runs: 2.87

M&P 9C
Lowest clean: 2.65
Highest clean: 2.82
Average, all runs: 2.85

There wasn’t a lot of difference between these Shield runs and previous sessions, with about the same number of misses. Not unexpectedly, the misses from the 9C were less dramatic than those with the Shield.

During these exercises, I had multiple 6:00 ejections from the Shield, at least two of which struck my right hand.

EXERCISE 3

D2 from concealment to a B21 repair center, 11x13” @ 7yds, 10 repetitions. Ammunition used was the Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ (#53620).

M&P Shield
Lowest: 2.01
Highest: 2.42
Average, all runs: 2.26

M&P 9C
Lowest: 1.99
Highest: 2.35
Average, all runs: 2.23

I changed this one up a bit to assess how much more time the smaller 3x5 card required over a larger high thoracic target area, and what the difference would be between the Shield and 9C. The difference in averages between the two target zones ending up being almost exactly the same at 0.62 for the 9C and 0.61 for the Shield.

EXERCISE 4 - 5

Two LE qualification courses to run the gun against different times and scoring. Only the Shield was used for these.

Kansas CPOST, 50rds, 3-25yds, Federal 147gr HST (P9HST2)
On the web: http://www.kscpost.org/target.php
TQ15 target, scoring inner ring only, 40/50

Georgia POST, 30rds, 3-25yds, Federal 147gr JHP (9MS)
On the web: http://www.gapost.org/pdf_file/gsac05.pdf
TQ15 target, scoring inner ring only, 26/30

During the Kansas COF the Shield stove-piped again at round ~28, or ~108 rounds in this session. All rounds were dropped at the 25.

SUMMARY

Overall, there was less difference between the Shield and 9C than I had anticipated. While the performance of each was not exhaustively compared, the exercises conducted were informative.

In shooting and dry-firing the 9C, I had the same trigger finger placement quirks as with the Shield. The tendency to over-insert my finger was less pronounced with the 9C than the Shield. A smaller hand may not notice.

The 9C had a weight and balance to it that I perceived heavier than its measured weight. I think this is more unfamiliarity than anything.

Like most other compacts and subcompacts, I did not care for the grip extension on the 9C’s magazine, though at least this one is fixed rather than a sleeve.

The erratic ejection of the Shield continues to frustrate and the gun likely just needs to go home to S&W for their attention. This would give them the opportunity to assess the trigger attributes as well.

Though much lower than usually acceptable, the 78/100 bullseye score was decent within context. The gun is clearly capable of shooting, but is an unforgiving thing.

Total rounds on the Shield this session: 160
Shield cumulative total: 879

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3921a.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3927a.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3931a.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3728.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_3939a.jpg

[LSP972]

I am really surprised that in all of the firearms you surveyed, you didn't look at a PPS. .

If you were talking to me, I did. Very thin, but... lots of square edges/angles, egregious trigger, and the HK-clone mag release is poorly executed. All IMO, of course... but I was somewhat underwhelmed with the PPS.

.

[Rich]

The De Santis mini scarbbard 58.99 style 019

That's if you are still into leather.

[Red Leader]

Another option to consider is the S&W 3913/908, with the biggest 'negative' being that S&W doesn't support the 3rd gens anymore, so if the aluminum frame gets battered from enough +P ammo and develops a crack, you are completely SOL (no refunds at all).

However, the 3913 platform is considered by many to be the pinnacle of the slim, single stack CCW. They also have an exposed hammer to ride while reholstering. The 908 is the 'value' or cheapened version of it, but in all my research (which was way, way too much), I never ever heard a complaint, ever, about the 3913. Actually quite the opposite - most users found that when other pistols choked, the 3913 kept on going. It is not the latest and greatest, but a great option if you can find a low round count example. I seem to recall finding an endurance test of those pistols and they ran into some frame cracking issues around 9,000 rounds, which is low by today's polymer standards, but were extremely reliable.

I do not own one. I used to have a 3953 which was the DOA version of the pistol - it was awesome, but the heavy DA trigger pull every time moved me away from it. I'd snatch up a clean 3913 or 908 if I found one.

[JodyH]

The 3913 is nice but I think the ultimate sub-compact 3rd gen Smith would be a CS9 with a GrifTac (http://www.griftac.com) grip instead of the fat Hogue rubber grip you usually find them outfitted with.

[Rich]

The 3913 is nice but I think the ultimate sub-compact 3rd gen Smith would be a CS9 with a GrifTac (http://www.griftac.com) grip instead of the fat Hogue rubber grip you usually find them outfitted with.

I use to consider the 6906 and 3913 to be sub compacts or any thing 3.5 and under.

BTW
I chose the 6906 over the 3913 because the grip wasn't that much wider.

[Chuck Haggard]

Sometimes just a bit is enough. When I used to ankle carry a 3rd gen S&W as a BUG to my 5906 I found the 3913 to be far more concealable and comfortable than my 6906.

[Red Leader]

Sometimes just a bit is enough. When I used to ankle carry a 3rd gen S&W as a BUG to my 5906 I found the 3913 to be far more concealable and comfortable than my 6906.

This 3rd gen talk is gettin me jonesin' for a 908 w/ some part swaps.

[ST911]

UPDATE

The Shield in this thread is back from S&W. It was returned for the previously mentioned stoppages and erratic ejection, as well as the quality of the trigger press. Return documentation in the package indicates:

CUSTOMER COMPLAINT: EJECTION
REPAIRED: BARREL MODIFICATION
REPAIRED: ADJUSTED EXTRACTOR
REPAIRED: RANGE TESTED/MEETS SPEC

Preliminary inspection indicates that the extractor was not replaced, but has greater tension. There is no indication of what the barrel modification is. Trigger attributes are unchanged.

When shipped, the gun was sent to S&W with the mags that were sold with the gun, one 7-round, one 8-round. It returned with one 7-round magazine which was obviously used, but not mine. The 8-round magazine was not included.

Timeline:
08/21 - Contacted S&W warranty/repair for RMA and pre-paid shipping label
08/22 - Recieved email with RMA and printable label late in the afternoon
08/23 - Shield shipped to S&W via FedEx
08/29 - Logged in at S&W
08/30 - Call to techs for status check, verified log in date
09/06 - Email notice of return shipment, with FedEx tracking number
09/09 - Delivered

Live fire is on hold until at least two mags of known origin are on hand to avoid additional variables.

[Rich]

Sometimes just a bit is enough. When I used to ankle carry a 3rd gen S&W as a BUG to my 5906 I found the 3913 to be far more concealable and comfortable than my 6906.

You are right


I would agree with you when it comes to ankle carry the 3913 would be better. every tiny bit counts when it comes to that type of carry.
But with IWB I don't think it matters as much. Now height is a different story.

I also found out I print when I carry a P30 at 3:00 IWB Blade Tech NANO with a SD
But I`m fine with the P229 at 3:00 IWB Blade Tech discontinued with a SD

P30 H = 5.43

P229 H= 5.4

I knew the Height before buying . And thought that there wouldn't be much difference.

[Rich]

UPDATE

The Shield in this thread is back from S&W. It was returned for the previously mentioned stoppages and erratic ejection, as well as the quality of the trigger press. Return documentation in the package indicates:

CUSTOMER COMPLAINT: EJECTION
REPAIRED: BARREL MODIFICATION
REPAIRED: ADJUSTED EXTRACTOR
REPAIRED: RANGE TESTED/MEETS SPEC

Preliminary inspection indicates that the extractor was not replaced, but has greater tension. There is no indication of what the barrel modification is. Trigger attributes are unchanged.

When shipped, the gun was sent to S&W with the mags that were sold with the gun, one 7-round, one 8-round. It returned with one 7-round magazine which was obviously used, but not mine. The 8-round magazine was not included.

Timeline:
08/21 - Contacted S&W warranty/repair for RMA and pre-paid shipping label
08/22 - Recieved email with RMA and printable label late in the afternoon
08/23 - Shield shipped to S&W via FedEx
08/29 - Logged in at S&W
08/30 - Call to techs for status check, verified log in date
09/06 - Email notice of return shipment, with FedEx tracking number
09/09 - Delivered

Live fire is on hold until at least two mags of known origin are on hand to avoid additional variables.

They kept you mag ! Rrr

MEETS SPEC'S

Can you tell me what spec`s did it meet ? just curious

[LSP972]

MEETS SPEC'S

Can you tell me what spec`s did it meet ? just curious

That's armorer-speak for "We couldn't reproduce your problem." :)

.

[BobLoblaw]

Edit: wrong forum, my bad.

[ST911]

UPDATE

Communications with S&W have been mostly productive, but with caveats. I called tech support and asked for greater specifics on the work performed, and was advised of these clarifications.

REPAIRED: BARREL MODIFICATION
The feedramp was reportedly polished.

REPAIRED: ADJUSTED EXTRACTOR
A new extractor was installed. This is…odd…as the extractor that was originally in the gun bears unique markings that remain present now.

REPAIRED: RANGE TESTED/MEETS SPEC
Self explanatory. The gun meets factory specifications, good, bad, or otherwise.

When I asked specifically about my magazines, the tech advised that none had been logged in when the gun was received. He was very gracious however, and said that two new magazines would be ordered for me. He could not advise when they would ship as they did not have any, demand was high, and that “it may be awhile.”

I had originally intended to leave the gun as-is until new magazines arrived. If the gun met factory specs when shipped back, the used magazine that shipped with it presumably did as well. Further, if this gun had been the only defensive gun for another customer, they would be stuck with that magazine until others arrived. Therefore, it seems only fair to keep this rolling and rounds going downrange, letting the chips fall where they might.

I worked in a few exercises and another comparison between other range work today. I had received a request to run a Sig P290 subcompact 9mm. See it online here:
http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p290rs.aspx

Ammunition for the Shield today was the TulAmmo 115gr FMJ steel case. It was the worst ammunition I had on hand to check S&W repairs with. If it will function with lesser ammo, there may be hope.

The P290 used Black Hills Ammunition JHP-XTPs, either 115 or 124gr, both in +P.

EXERCISE 1

B8 bullseye @ 25yds, 10rds off-hand.

M&P Shield
Not fired in this exercise.

Sig P290
OH: 41-0X
OH: 53-3X

See comments in the summary section for more on this.

EXERCISE 2

D2 from concealment to 3x5 index card placed horizontally @ 7yds, 10 repetitions.

M&P Shield
Lowest clean: 2.98
Highest clean: 2.98
Average, all runs: 2.81

Sig P290
Lowest clean: 2.82
Highest clean: 3.18
Average, all runs: 3.19

EXERCISE 3

D2 from concealment to a B21 repair center, 11x13” @ 7yds, 10 repetitions.

M&P Shield
Lowest: 1.84
Highest: 2.63
Average, all runs: 2.20

Sig P290
Lowest: 2.28
Highest: 2.53
Average, all runs: 2.43

EXERCISE 4

D5 to an IPSC A Zone from concealment, 3yds-10yds.

M&P Shield
3yds, 2.59 C
5yds, 2.72 C
7yds, 3.21 -2
10yds, 4.07 -1

Sig P290
3yds, 2.82 -1
5yds, 3.10 C
7yds, 4.16 -2
10yds, 4.62 -1

EXERCISE 5

F.A.S.T.

M&P Shield
Not fired in this exercise.

Sig P290
8.29, -3B, 11.29 w/ penalties
7.89, -1H, -1B, 10.89 w/ penalties
8.31, -1H, 10.31 w/ penalties

SUMMARY

The Shield functioned with the TulAmmo. Ejection was consistent without stoppage for the 60rds fired. 60rds isn’t particularly demonstrative of anything though, as the previous stoppages occurred only after ~100rds. Lengthier range sessions are planned.

I fired all the exercises through the P290 first, rather than alternating guns. Observations on the P290:

The grip angle of the P290 is quite a bit different than the Shield. After switching back to the Shield I pointed it high on presentation repeatedly and had to make deliberate effort for awhile to bring them back. I didn’t have other Sigs handy to compare the P290 to, so I don’t know if the angle is unique or typical to Sigs. I believe it to be the former rather than the latter.

The small grip and my large hands presented a variety of quirks.

The magazine release on the P290 is tall, and on other models might be considered extended. It sat right below my middle finger, and I fully expected to drop magazines while shooting. None dropped, but I think it’s probably inevitable. I would also watch out for this with certain holsters, ensuring the button is adequately shrouded. Shooters with smaller hands will probably find the button size and placement to their liking.

There is a bump on the inside of the trigger guard just ahead of the trigger, slightly narrower than the guard itself. If I released the trigger while shooting, the recoil and muzzle rise caused my trigger finger to bounce off this bump rather uncomfortably.

The OEM night sights had a smooth, flat finish that shined when backlit, making sight picture difficult at times.

The trigger press was smooth and agreeable. There is a slight hitch near the break than can be felt when pressed deliberately, but when pressing through at speed isn’t noticeable. Travel is obviously longer than the Shield, but not overly so. Certainly, not as bad as the LC9 previously discussed. Like with other subcompacts, getting a good grip and trigger finger placement brought my fingertip in contact with my support hand palm at times.

The short height of the P290 makes it feel heavier than it is due to the short height and weight distribution. Nonetheless, it’s not much to any heavier than several others.

There were three different magazine configurations with my sample. One six round magazine had a flat, flush-fit floorplate. Another six round magazine had a contoured finger rest style of floorplate. Another was an eight round magazine with a spacer sleeve. The spacer sleeve was problematic, and prevented the mag from locking in place during several reload runs. It required a very deliberate effort to seat the magazine. Removal of some material from the sleeve may help. As the gun was not mine, I elected to remove the sleeve altogether, and the problem went away.

I suspect a shooter with a much smaller hand, esp an existing Sig or long-pull DA shooter, would find this gun to their liking. For me, it just doesn’t work and I kept my session with it short.

Total rounds on the Shield this session: 60
Shield cumulative total: 939

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0026.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0028.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0030.jpg

[LSP972]

UPDATE


REPAIRED: ADJUSTED EXTRACTOR
A new extractor was installed. This is…odd…as the extractor that was originally in the gun bears unique markings that remain present now.



Not exactly confidence-inspiring, eh?

I really, REALLY want to like this little pistol. But I'm finding it rather difficult... and Springfield isn't making it any easier with their not-quite-a-recall, lost magazines, etc. Anyway... good luck. I'm following your adventure closely.

.

[ST911]

I really, REALLY want to like this little pistol.

Me too. There's a lot of potential in it. I'm happy to invest the time and energy into syncing with the gun, but the mechanical side needs to come together too. Add now, customer service.

[LSP972]

.. the time and energy into syncing with the gun...

Yes. This is what I have been reluctant to do, because, based on my targets after I began working from the holster with this piece, its going to take quite a bit of time and ammunition. I've got both, but wonder if they would not be better utilized on polishing my skills with the RDS-equipped G19.

The not-quite-a-recall gave me large pause; and now this waffling with your pistol by the supposedly top-shelf service department, along with the fact that 8 round 9mm Shield magazines are unobtanium. I can find the seven rounders, but want the larger example. A grand total of two magazines puts somewhat of a crimp in my particular training process.

There is a high degree of interest in this little pistol amongst my colleagues at the lab. Yet another of them has borrowed it to "try out". I've gotten an additional several hundred rounds through it this way, on somebody else's dime; so far, no malfunctions at all. It is approaching the 1000 round mark.

.

[ST911]

UPDATE

I took the Shield to a new-shooter event today where it was placed in a pool of guns for attendees to choose from. It was selected by three shooters, one of which had some prior Shield experience. As the event is only a handgun exposure session no specific exercises are conducted. Shooting consists of casual, slow fire at close, generous targets.

Two types of ammunition were used in this gun through the day, both from Black Hills. The first was remanufactured 115gr FMJ, 30 rounds total. The second was the new manufacture 115gr JHP-EXP, 50 rounds total. The EXP is marketed as “extra power”, loaded hotter than a standard 115gr but not to +P criteria.

Watching the Shield at various points, ejection was brisk to 3-4:00 and several feet in distance. A few rounds would occasionally eject at the 6:00, all of which were EXPs. At or about round #76 the gun stopped, leaving an empty horizontal case in the port with a round right behind it. A photo after I locked the slide back:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/ShieldStovepipe9-14.jpg

Some have offered that the Shield has inherently low and insufficient extractor tension, making it prone to extractor bounce. Higher pressure rounds would logically increase the likelihood of a problem. Coincidentally, just yesterday I obtained 1000rds of another EXP-type round to run in this Shield for that reason. That a problem surfaced in so few rounds this session, and with a high quality known-good load, is disappointing.

I’ll report back after contact with S&W on Monday.

Total rounds on the Shield this session: 80
Shield cumulative total: 1019

[Ed L]

I experienced the exact same type of malfunction in my 9mm Shield with the exact same ammo: Black Hills Tac XP +P as illustrated below.

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/shieldproblem_zps2267e4c2.jpg

I experienced two of these types of malfunctions with Winchester ranger Talon 147 grain JHP in my 9mm Shield. The common denominator between the two types of ammo is that both use Winchester brass. People have speculated that something about the Winchester Brass causes tolerance stacking issues in M&P 9mms as well as the Shield. Some have also stated that the Winchester brass. Some people have speculated that the Winchester brass have a thinner rim that causes this issue. Whether this is the case, I don't know.

I experienced similar malfunctions with Winchester and some other brands of ammo in my full sized M&P9 before going to the Apex Failure resistant extractor--which corrected this issue. Sadly, this extractor does not work in the Shield.

I have not yet been able to send my shield back to S&W due to family emergencies.

Thanks for the update as well as the amazingly well written thread, Skintop1911.

[Chuck Haggard]

You'd think S&W would have side-stepped that problem since the 3rd gen pistols had similar issues with Remington brass back in the '80s

Institutional knowledge must be fading.

[ST911]

I experienced the exact same type of malfunction in my 9mm Shield with the exact same ammo: Black Hills Tac XP +P as illustrated below.

EXP in mine, not TAC-XP. Different bullet, different brass. The amount of "oomph" is pretty close though.

[ST911]

UPDATE (09/19)

The Shield has been returned to S&W and repair is pending. Communications with them have been fast and effective. Unfortunately, that makes the Shield unavailable for direct comparison when other subcompacts become available. Last night, I had two Kahr models out, PM9 and Mk9. You can see them here:

PM9: http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-PM9.asp
MK9: http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-MK9.asp

I ran them in what has become a fairly standard stack of exercises, as follows.

EXERCISE 1

B8 bullseye @ 25yds, 10rds off-hand.

PM9
OH: 60-0X

MK9
OH: 36-0X

EXERCISE 2

D2 from concealment to 3x5 index card placed horizontally @ 7yds, 10 repetitions.

PM9
Lowest clean: 2.71
Highest clean: 2.90
Average, all runs: 2.89

MK9
Lowest clean: 2.70
Highest clean: 2.87
Average, all runs: 2.79

EXERCISE 3

D2 from concealment to a B21 repair center, 11x13” @ 7yds, 10 repetitions.

PM9
Lowest clean: 2.30
Highest clean: 2.66
Average, all runs: 2.50

MK9
Lowest Clean: 2.27
Highest Clean: 2.64
Average, all runs: 2.38

EXERCISE 4

D5 to an IPSC A Zone from concealment, 3yds-10yds.

PM9
3yds, 2.80 C
5yds, 3.63 C
7yds, 3.23 -1
10yds, 3.61 -1

MK9
3yds, 3.63 C
5yds, 3.30 -1
7yds, 3.54 C
10yds, 4.00 -1

EXERCISE 5

F.A.S.T.

PM9
7.58, -1H, -1B, 10.58 w/ penalties
7.64, -2H, -1B, 12.64 w/ penalties
10.10, -1H, -1B, 13.10 w/ penalties

MK9
8.25, -1H, 0B, 10.25 w/ penalties
7.80, -1H, -2B, 11.80 w/ penalties *stovepipe, see summary
8.58, -2H, 0B, 12.58 w/ penalties

SUMMARY

Exercises 1-4 were shot with Black Hills Ammunition 115gr FMJ (new). The FAST tests were fired with 115gr JHP +P (new). With the exception of the FAST, all shooting was done with the standard flush-fit six round magazine. On the FAST, I utilized a 7rd magazine with extended floorplate.

This was not my first experience with either the PM9 or MK9, but those prior experiences were not as deliberate in construction or quantified.

These two Kahrs have the nicest out of the box triggers I have seen in these comparisons yet. They were glass smooth, moderate in weight, broke clean, and travel was decent. While both were good, the MK9 edged out the PM9 in this regard.

I expected there to be greater difference in performance between the two due to the weight. I suspect the 115 FMJ ammunition was mild enough that a few ounces didn’t make much difference. There was greater distinction in the FAST tests, which did utilize a full power defensive load.

There was a single stoppage (stovepipe) with the MK9 this session on run #2 of the FAST. As it was on the second round fired, I restarted that run. That was a shame as the time to the first round, a hit, was ~1.70. It may have been a fluke, but I’ll take a fast low% fluke anytime.

My greatest difficulty with these guns was getting a decent grip on them in the holster. Fumbled draws and/or grip repositioning added time to the clock and were obvious contributors to my misses. This became apparent from the first D2 rounds fired. I attribute this again to a large hand, but smart holster selection and optimized ride height may help as well.

I think this is an area where the Shield excels. Despite it’s size it retains a full-size feel in grip, especially as its acquired, and regardless of carry method.

Cumulative Shield round count remains the same: 1019

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0032.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0033.jpg

[JodyH]

My FAST problem with the micro Kahrs isn't the grip it's the reload, specifically mags that don't always drop free, tiny magazines and a tiny mag well.

I do like my PM9 though.
I like it so much I shot our CCW match with it this past weekend, from a pocket holster.
Despite having the lowest capacity in the match, the difficult reloads and the handicap of drawing from a pocket I still finished in the top 33% overall.
5 stages and a round count of 75, average of 15 rounds per stage = 2 reloads minimum per stage, many of the full size guns were able to complete stages with no reloads.

The micro Kahrs definitely shoot bigger than they carry and my 2 PM9's have been flawless from day one.
:cool:

[ST911]

My FAST problem with the micro Kahrs isn't the grip it's the reload, specifically mags that don't always drop free, tiny magazines and a tiny mag well.

I do like my PM9 though.
I like it so much I shot our CCW match with it this past weekend, from a pocket holster.
Despite having the lowest capacity in the match, the difficult reloads and the handicap of drawing from a pocket I still finished in the top 33% overall.
5 stages and a round count of 75, average of 15 rounds per stage = 2 reloads minimum per stage, many of the full size guns were able to complete stages with no reloads.

The micro Kahrs definitely shoot bigger than they carry and my 2 PM9's have been flawless from day one.
:cool:

Thanks for the input Jody. I've played with the PM9 before, and it's a student pool gun that circulates. I liked the PM9 better than the MK9, but am not sure why. Some of it is the weight and balance. There's another quality to it though that I can't quite nail down.

On the reloads... The mags dropped well for me, but I also had issues finding the mag well in a hurry. I used the extended mags for the reloads having pinched the heck out of my hand enough with some others.

[JodyH]

The 7 round extended mags are known to cause nose-dive feed malfunctions in the PM9 because it's easy to torque the bottom of the mag.
The only thing I use the extended mag for is "Barney loading +1" at the range.

Now that I have 8 magazines I should really run my two-tone PM9 through the 2000 round challenge. I have confidence it would go through it quite well, especially if I started with a brand new Wolff (+) recoil spring. It has well over 3500 rounds with zero malfunctions.
I only have 500 rounds through my new all black PM9 but so far it too is 100%.

[psalms144.1]

Jody - interesting. I've never had a malfunction like you described, and I use the extended PM9 mags almost exclusively on the range - though I ankle carry most often with the "flat" 6 round magazine.

My biggest issue with the PM9 is that the magazine release is "soft" and the mags don't drop free. This has resulted, for me, in several instances in dynamic COFs where I've inadvertently pressed the mag release "just enough" for the mag to unlock, but not to drop out of the well - leading to slide forward empty chamber situations...

Regards,

Kevin

[JodyH]

Jody - interesting. I've never had a malfunction like you described, and I use the extended PM9 mags almost exclusively on the range - though I ankle carry most often with the "flat" 6 round magazine.

My biggest issue with the PM9 is that the magazine release is "soft" and the mags don't drop free. This has resulted, for me, in several instances in dynamic COFs where I've inadvertently pressed the mag release "just enough" for the mag to unlock, but not to drop out of the well - leading to slide forward empty chamber situations...

Regards,

Kevin
I think the extended mag malfunction is probably a result of mag well tolerances. If you have a "loose" mag well it would be more prone to issues.
Neither of my PM9's have had issues with the 7 round mags (remember, I rarely use them) but both my pistols also exhibit "sticky" mag ejection so I think my mag wells are on the tight side of tolerances.
A friend of mine has a PM9 that the mags drop free no problem, but his chokes on the 7 round mags regularly.

As to the weak mag release button. I've seen this fixed by using a Glock mag catch spring. The Glock part seems to be a bit stiffer and is pretty much a drop in replacement.

[GJM]

We got a MK9 for my wife to carry as a small pistol, as the PM9 wouldn't run reliably for her. She just went to remove a loaded cartridge from the chamber for the first time, which was a coincidence of her range sessions and then leaving it loaded in the holster, and it won't extract a loaded round.

This going to need a trip back to Kahr?

[JodyH]

We got a MK9 for my wife to carry as a small pistol, as the PM9 wouldn't run reliably for her. She just went to remove a loaded cartridge from the chamber for the first time, which was a coincidence of her range sessions and then leaving it loaded in the holster, and it won't extract a loaded round.

This going to need a trip back to Kahr?
Won't extract is in won't pull it out of the chamber or won't toss the loaded round out of the ejection port?
If it won't toss it out the ejection port that's normal (especially with "long" FMJ rounds) because the ejection port is small on the Kahrs.
If it won't extract it from the chamber you could have a problem and it might not be a problem, again it depends on the length and shape of the bullet (especially FMJ's).
If your bullet is fairly long with little taper (124gr. Aguila FMJ for example) then it's being captured by the rifling because the Kahr's have very little lead before the rifling engages the bullet. No problem.
If this is happening with really tapered bullets like the old Hornady 115gr. XTP's then you might have a weak extractor spring. Problem.
Does the extracted round show signs of the rifling engaging the bullet?

[psalms144.1]

As to the weak mag release button. I've seen this fixed by using a Glock mag catch spring. The Glock part seems to be a bit stiffer and is pretty much a drop in replacement.Jody - thanks for the tip, I'll give that a try!

[GJM]

Won't extract is in won't pull it out of the chamber or won't toss the loaded round out of the ejection port?
If it won't toss it out the ejection port that's normal (especially with "long" FMJ rounds) because the ejection port is small on the Kahrs.
If it won't extract it from the chamber you could have a problem and it might not be a problem, again it depends on the length and shape of the bullet (especially FMJ's).
If your bullet is fairly long with little taper (124gr. Aguila FMJ for example) then it's being captured by the rifling because the Kahr's have very little lead before the rifling engages the bullet. No problem.
If this is happening with really tapered bullets like the old Hornady 115gr. XTP's then you might have a weak extractor spring. Problem.
Does the extracted round show signs of the rifling engaging the bullet?

Ranger 124+P T load. If you pull the slide back by hand, like you would if you are administratively clearing the pistol, the cartridge stays in the chamber. Functioned fine shooting. We ended up with a second new MK9, and while we haven't shot it, I just checked it and it extracts the same cartridge fine.

[JodyH]

Ranger 124+P T load. If you pull the slide back by hand, like you would if you are administratively clearing the pistol, the cartridge stays in the chamber. Functioned fine shooting. We ended up with a second new MK9, and while we haven't shot it, I just checked it and it extracts the same cartridge fine.
I'd remove the barrels and hand drop loaded rounds and empty cases in them and see how things compare.
The loaded rounds should give you an idea of the chamber length and whether the rifling is engaging the bullet.
The empty case should give you an idea of how tight the chamber is or if there's a burr in the chamber. I'd use virgin brass and a fired case both.
Just FYI, Lothar-Walther is the barrel manufacturer for Kahr.

[JAD]

I think the extended mag malfunction is probably a result of mag well tolerances. If you have a "loose" mag well it would be more prone to issues.
Neither of my PM9's have had issues with the 7 round mags (remember, I rarely use them) but both my pistols also exhibit "sticky" mag ejection so I think my mag wells are on the tight side of tolerances.
A friend of mine has a PM9 that the mags drop free no problem, but his chokes on the 7 round mags regularly.

As to the weak mag release button. I've seen this fixed by using a Glock mag catch spring. The Glock part seems to be a bit stiffer and is pretty much a drop in replacement.

I've had two PM9s that dropped free 100% and functioned 100% with all mags, through several thousand rounds each. I wish I would quit convincing myself that I won't want to pocket carry if I don't have a pocket gun.

I shot PM9-2 with the buddy I sold it to the other day. I was getting 1.7s to a 3x5@4 from a Sparks pocket holster. I was /furious./

[GJM]

Jody, depending upon the angle you hold the pistol, the round doesn't necessarily stay in the chamber, but it certainly will not exit the ejection port, and if there is a magazine in the pistol, it will cause a stoppage.

I removed the barrels from both MK9 pistols. Didn't notice anything obvious dropping a live cartridge into both, and switched barrels between the pistols. The problem stayed with the pistol -- in other words, the switch of barrels appeared to have no impact.

So, does this sound like an extractor issue, and if so, is the extractor a drop in part, or is this something that needs to go back to the mothership? Since we haven't shot the second pistol, we will shoot that first before contacting Kahr, because my experience is it is about 50/50 as to whether they need a trip back when new. YVK's MK9 did require a return recently, besides my experience in the past.

[JodyH]

Hand cycling Kahrs has always been hit or miss, there's just too much going on in such a small space.
I wouldn't worry about sending it back or "fixing" anything if it runs fine live fire.
Maybe re-evaluate it after a few hundred rounds or if it malfunctions and go from there.

There are really just a few things that cause people problems with Kahrs.
The slide release lever protrusion that catches the magazine follower get's bumped by the bullet noses causing premature slide lock. This is fixed by filing/stoning the protrusion until it clears the bullet nose.
On re-assembly people screw up the slide lock lever spring, be very careful when inserting the slide lock and make sure the spring arm rides up over the top of the protrusion. One mistake here and the spring is ruined. Kahr will send you a lever/spring for free if you ask nicely.
The mag release springs/buttons are hit and miss on the Kahrs, if yours drops the mags while firing call them up and they'll usually send you out a new one for free.
Very rarely the feed ramp is just slightly too long and you'll get broken magazine followers, a few strokes with a file and then a polish and that's easy to remedy.
Finally, always try to use the slide release lever to chamber a round (especially for the first few hundred rounds). Any half-ass hand cycling will cause a feed malfunction.

[GJM]

Yes, but if you had a bad round, how could you clear it with the magazine in the pistol without creating a CF?

[JodyH]

Yes, but if you had a bad round, how could you clear it with the magazine in the pistol without creating a CF?
Choose your carry ammo with OAL and bullet profile in mind is the best was to minimize the issue.
But with such a small ejection port and no "overtravel" on the slide, it's always going to be a problem.

[98z28]

I wonder if the recoil spring may be contributing to random issues in the Shield.

I picked up a pair of 9mm Shields a coupe weeks ago. One of them had a problematic recoil spring out of the box. When reassembling the guns after the initial field strip, I noticed that there was a slight "catch" in one of them when the slide was almost all the way to the rear. The resistance was in the last 1/8" or so of slide movement. Just before the slide locks to the rear there is a slight, but noticeable increase in effort required to move the slide. It makes a quiet "pop" noise when it moves past the resistance and locks to the rear. It is obvious when compared to the gun that does not have the issue, but I am not sure I would have noticed it if I were not working with a second gun.

I took the guns back apart and tried to identify the source of the extra resistance. On the "problem" gun, a portion of the outer recoil spring is sticking out in a way that could cause it to catch on the frame as it is compressed. Check out the recoil springs below.

The "good" spring is on the left. The "problem" spring is on the right.
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd128/stelks98z28/20130922_140509_zps6a4019e8.jpg (http://s220.photobucket.com/user/stelks98z28/media/20130922_140509_zps6a4019e8.jpg.html)



The "good" spring is on bottom. The "problem" spring is on top.
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd128/stelks98z28/20130922_140534_zps60a6b638.jpg (http://s220.photobucket.com/user/stelks98z28/media/20130922_140534_zps60a6b638.jpg.html)


To verify that is was the recoil spring, I put the "good" spring in the "problem" gun, and it worked fine (no extra resistance in the slide movement). I also put the "problem" spring in the "good" gun, and it created the same problem in the "good" gun: the slide would catch slightly in the last 1/8" or so of movement. I called Smith & Wesson and described the problem. They sent a new recoil spring assembly that looks exactly like the "problem" spring pictured above. It also makes the slide "catch" in the last 1/8" of movement in either gun. For now, I am just running the "good" spring. I have not tried to fire either gun with one of the "problem" springs, so I am not sure if it is in fact a problem. It seems reasonable that anything limiting the full rearward movement of the slide may keep the gun from ejecting an empty case, but I am not an experienced gunsmith so take that for what it is worth. For now, I am using the "good" spring to see if there are any issues from the guns before introducing another variable.

[Chuck Haggard]

Excessive outside diameter on those RSAs?

[ST911]

UPDATE (09/30)

My Shield is back. Here’s the timeline for this return, and the contents of the repair documentation included in the package.

09/16 - RMA and pre-paid shipping label received via email.
09/16 - Shield shipped to S&W via FedEx.
09/30 - Returned. No prior notice of shipment.

CUSTOMER COMPLAINT: EJECTION
REPAIRED: REPLACE BBL.
REPAIRED: REPLACE EXTRACTOR
REPAIRED: RANGE TESTED/MEETS SPEC
REPAIRED: REPLACE MAG

The work appears to have been performed as described. The barrel is obviously new, and the extractor lacks the marking(s) I made when the gun went in.

There were three magazines in the package. The first is the 7rd magazine they sent in the first return. It returned with a white stripe marked across the bottom and I believe the spring was replaced. The other two were a 7rd and 8rd magazine which appear new-ish. There was some fouling on the follower of the 8rd magazine, and none on the 7rd. Both of those magazines were marked with a black stripe across the top which appears to be a marker. Anyone know what these markings signify?

Test firing will follow.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0101a.jpg

[JM Campbell]

My new 9FS came with black marker stripe on the follower. Maybe its a new qc deal.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk 2

[MGW]

My new 9FS came with black marker stripe on the follower. Maybe its a new qc deal.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk 2

Pretty good turn around especially when you consider the recall. I'm on week three waiting for two XDs's to come back.

[LSP972]

Skin, I snagged another 9mm at a pawn shop the other day. Okay, color me a dumb-ass when I'm not even sure I'm gonna keep the first one... but the price was certainly right, so...

The dude said it had just that morning arrived from Springfield, because it had failed "the test" he applied when it came in initially, so he sent it back. Imagine that, a pawn shop owner with a clue...

Anyway, both magazines had the white mark across the bottom of the baseplates. Both display the black marks on the follower, as well. No idea what that might mean. They passed some sort of function check, perhaps?

I'm going to keep this new one unfired (by me) for now, but as soon as I get the other one back from the fellow I lent it to, I'll start shooting it again. There's simply too much potential there to abandon without a thorough examination. And aside from my inability to control it during burst fire (which I can hopefully fix), the pistol has given me no reason to be critical of it.

You gonna keep the safety? If I do decide to carry it, the safety is outta there...

.

[ST911]

UPDATE (09/30 - 2)

I made it to the range tonight for another session with the Shield. Prior to heading out it was inspected, cleaned, and lubed. I also reviewed previous range sessions and packed loads that had been involved in stoppages documented here. Those loads are identified below.

I shot some different exercises tonight that moved a little faster and ran the round count up a little quicker, as follows.

EXERCISE 1 - Draw from concealment, fire two rounds to an 8” circle, one to a 3x5” index card, then two more to the 8” circle, at 10yds. 10 runs for 50rds.

Run 1, Federal 147gr HydraShok (#P9HS2G) 50rds. FTE on round #8, one distinct 6:00 ejection hit my head.

Run 2, Federal 124gr HydraShok (#P9HS1G), 50rds. No problems.

Run 3, Winchester 124gr FMJ NATO (Q4318), 50rds. I ran this one at 7yds to play with speed and accuracy balance. Soft ejections to the left, right, 6:00, and straight up. One hit the slide on the way back down.

Run 4, Federal 147gr HST (P9HST2), 50rds. A few 6:00 ejections, 1 to my head.

EXERCISE 2 - FAM TPC

Run 1, Black Hills 115gr GDHP +P, 30rds. No problems. 145/150, NG on stages 1, 4, 6.
Run 2, Black Hills 115gr JHP-EXP, 30rds. No problems. 150/150, NG on stages 1, 4.

EXERCISE 3 - Nebraska LETC Instructor Qualification Course

Black Hills 115gr JHP-XTP +P, 30rds. FTE on round #28. 27/30 = Pass

SUMMARY

When I experienced the early stovepipe at round #8, my first thought was to stop shooting and box up the gun again. I wanted to give the Shield every possible benefit of the doubt though, hoping that the new barrel and new extractor needed a few rounds to settle in. The distinct 6:00 ejection thereafter didn’t increase confidence, but was thought to be part of the same process.

As I moved into the 124 HydraShoks, the gun went through its cycle of operation without issue. The 124s had previously stovepiped, so the lack thereof this session may have been a good sign.

After the success with the 124gr HydraShok, I chose the 124gr Winchester. Winchester cases had been identified as a common variable in similar problems reported by other Shield owners. While the gun didn’t stop with this ammo, it had the most erratic and multi-directional ejection of all the loads.

More duty ammo followed, this time the Federal 147gr HST. Ejection was less erratic than with the Winchester, but noticeable.

With that quantity of standard pressure ammunition fired, I brought out the BHA 115gr EXP and +P to see if slide velocity would overrun extractor tension. 30rds of the EXP and +P ran through the TPCs without issue, and 27 more rounds into the NLETC course. The last stoppage for the day came on round #28. At that point, I fired the remaining two rounds to finish the course, scored the target, and called it a day. I had the information I needed.

In addition to these issues, I made another observation tonight. While packing up, I noticed that migrating lube from the muzzle and recoil spring assembly had a dark brown hue to it. Not consistent with fouling, and not apparently another oil. It was something else, perhaps lingering machine oil or preservative? As noted above, the gun had been cleaned and lubed prior to shooting tonight. I tried to capture a picture of it, but it’s barely discernable in the photos. This is not a fault of the gun, more an oddity.

Photos of the stoppages, in order of occurrence.

Where to go from here?

Total rounds on the Shield this session: 290
Shield cumulative total: 1309

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0103Large.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0104Large.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0112Large.jpg

[LSP972]

Damn...

.

[ST911]

Anyway, both magazines had the white mark across the bottom of the baseplates. Both display the black marks on the follower, as well. No idea what that might mean. They passed some sort of function check, perhaps?

Probably. The mags with the stripe were GTG with plenty of spring tension, so I'm not excited about it. Just curious.


You gonna keep the safety? If I do decide to carry it, the safety is outta there...

I wanted to leave the gun intact as shipped until all issues are reconciled. If they ultimately are, the safety is coming out. It hits my thumb wrong and wears skin. I'm also not a fan of manual safety levers at all, especially those carried deeper.


Damn...

.

Yeah, that about covers it.

[ScotchMan]

It is unfortunate that most in this thread have so quickly brushed aside the Walther PPS. I find it to be superior to the Shield, XDS, and other offerings from Kahr, Ruger, and Sig covered here.

The PPS is the only option which lets you cover the slide with your thumb when holstering to prevent a ND. Others stated how beneficial this is in regards to the P2000sk and other hammer-fired guns, but the PPS is the only single stack 9mm in its size class to do this that I am aware of. The magazine release is a a point of discussion, and I too like the HK style better, but prefer the PPS to a button every day of the week. Accuracy is outstanding, recoil is not an issue, and it is not encumbered with unnecessary grip or manual safeties.

I really don't understand how the PPS is such a well-kept secret, especially when people are going crazy about the Shield and XDs. I carry a P2000sk most of the time, but the PPS is so comfortable AIWB that I find myself gravitating to it more and more. And I am not afraid to shoot it, as I took it to my last full day training class while everyone used their full-size Glocks/M&Ps. Great gun, highly underrated.

[YVK]

PPS has a number of supporters on this site. I looked at it closely when I was on a market for a subcompact. The striker control option is there, and it is a good shooter. I got turned off by reports of backstrap deactivations and by magazine ergos on a gun one want to be able to reload quickly.

[98z28]

It is unfortunate that most in this thread have so quickly brushed aside the Walther PPS. I find it to be superior to the Shield, XDS, and other offerings from Kahr, Ruger, and Sig covered here.

The PPS is the only option which lets you cover the slide with your thumb when holstering to prevent a ND. Others stated how beneficial this is in regards to the P2000sk and other hammer-fired guns, but the PPS is the only single stack 9mm in its size class to do this that I am aware of. The magazine release is a a point of discussion, and I too like the HK style better, but prefer the PPS to a button every day of the week. Accuracy is outstanding, recoil is not an issue, and it is not encumbered with unnecessary grip or manual safeties.

I really don't understand how the PPS is such a well-kept secret, especially when people are going crazy about the Shield and XDs. I carry a P2000sk most of the time, but the PPS is so comfortable AIWB that I find myself gravitating to it more and more. And I am not afraid to shoot it, as I took it to my last full day training class while everyone used their full-size Glocks/M&Ps. Great gun, highly underrated.

We have several fans of the PPS here, of which I am one. The long-term lack of aftermarket support for the PPS has been frustrating. Sights options are limited. Magazines and spare parts have been difficult to source for quite a while. I like to shoot and dry-fire my carry guns a fair amount, which means I need spares when parts break or wear out. Spare parts and magazines just haven't been readily available at reasonable prices. Hopefully when Walther sets up shop in the U.S. things will open up.

[JodyH]

I really like my PPS but...

7 round 9mm magazines have been back-ordered for... years?

I picked mine up for a reasonable price because it's a MA compliant 10.5# trigger version. Called up Walther to see about ordering the parts to convert it to a standard trigger pull.
"We can't sell you those parts, they're armorer only."
Asked if I could send it in and have them install the parts.
"No, we don't change those parts out."

:mad:

[ST911]

It is unfortunate that most in this thread have so quickly brushed aside the Walther PPS. I find it to be superior to the Shield, XDS, and other offerings from Kahr, Ruger, and Sig covered here.

I'll run a PPS as soon as I find one to borrow. Also, a Nano.

I've shot a PPS in .40, have no interest in shooting another round in .40, but will give the 9mm a fair shake.

[TR675]

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0104Large.jpg

It took a new Shield out today for function testing and familiarization (read: goofing off). Ammo used was 115 gr. PMC, 115 gr. Speer Lawman, 124 gr. Winchester NATO, and 147 gr. Winchester bonded JHP. The gun was field stripped, wiped down and oiled with Slip 2000 before the outing.

I had one failure to extract that looked exactly like the picture above. That was with the Winchester 147 gr. JHP. That also produced the best groups, although still nothing to write home about. I need to work on my bullseye shooting.

All loads shot to the left. It looks like the rear sight came from the factory slightly drifted to the left. Either this gun is not very accurate or I'm not very accurate with it; I suspect a bit of both. It is not fun to shoot. The trigger could use serious improvement and the trigger slap is painful. Accuracy was similar to the LCP I brought for comparison. My LCP is surprisingly accurate and wears a Hogue handall which helps measurably with control. The Shield could benefit from one as well. Finally, ejection was erratic. Two cases ejected straight up and hit me on the top of the head.

After 150 rds I'd had enough and pulled out my M&P 9C. It has an Apex trigger kit, laser grip and Trijicon HDs. What a difference that made. The perfectly sized grip, great sights, great trigger, soft shooting, shooting POA/POI. I could hit what I aimed at, and all without hurting myself.

Rough conclusions: further testing is necessary, especially with the Winchester JHP, my preferred carry load. Further practice is necessary. A handall or similar grip enhancement would be rad and I will look into that. The M&P 9C is better in every way but concealability and I will use it whenever possible.

[MGW]

I wonder if there has been a change to the recoil springs on the shields? I bought one of the first ones I could get my hands on and it shot very well. Reasonable recoil and reasonable accuracy. I couldn't tell a lot of difference between it and a 9c I purchased a few months later. The trigger wasn't great but not horrible either. Never had a failure of any kind either.

The only difference is I didn't shoot anything heavier than 124gr gold dot. I'll also confess to only putting about 400 rounds through it before trading it a local PD officer.

[TR675]

Reasonable recoil and reasonable accuracy. I couldn't tell a lot of difference between it and a 9c I purchased a few months later.

I'm recoil sensitive - I very badly broke my right wrist years ago; it's never been the same and is getting worse as I age. So even 200 rounds of 9mm through a full size pistol is uncomfortable. I think it affects my accuracy - it's hard to get rid of a flinch when the gun hurts every time you shoot it.

Having said all of that, the shield subjectively recoils more than the 9c. And for me that probably makes it harder to shoot accurately.

[MGW]

I have a buddy with the same issue from the same injury so I definitely understand.

[ST911]

It took a new Shield out today for function testing and familiarization (read: goofing off). Ammo used was 115 gr. PMC, 115 gr. Speer Lawman, 124 gr. Winchester NATO, and 147 gr. Winchester bonded JHP. The gun was field stripped, wiped down and oiled with Slip 2000 before the outing.

I had one failure to extract that looked exactly like the picture above...

...After 150 rds I'd had enough and pulled out my M&P 9C. It has an Apex trigger kit, laser grip and Trijicon HDs. What a difference that made.

Thanks for the information. What are the alphas in your ser#?

[TR675]

Thanks for the information. What are the alphas in your ser#?

HPTxxxx.

I didn't note that I had multiple failures to lock back on the last round. I think this was a grip problem, and the failures stopped after I adjusted my grip.

Contrary to the experience of a lot of folks, I like the safety and found it easy and positive to disengage.

[MSparks909]

Skintop911,

What is your opinion/review of the XD/S? I saw the comparison to the Shield in the earlier part of this thread but was curious if you had any more updates. Not trying to bread hijack.

[TR675]

Not trying to bread hijack.

Please don't, the baguettes are very twitchy today.

[MSparks909]

Always seem to have 1 or 2 typos when using my iPhone...need to break out the laptop!

[ST911]

Skintop911,

What is your opinion/review of the XD/S? I saw the comparison to the Shield in the earlier part of this thread but was curious if you had any more updates. Not trying to bread hijack.

No worries. Other than the content posted in here, I have little to add. The particular XDs in this thread is a pool gun I see often, is doing well, is well liked by those shooting and handling it, and is an XD that may actually be worth considering. It exceeded my expectations substantially.

As for the bread hijack... You can have anything but my fresh baked brötchen.

[MSparks909]

Good to hear its doing well. I'm thinking of picking one up for a deep concealment role when conventional AIWB of my G34 isn't feasible, such as when I wear tucked in shirts, etc.

Still going to continue to evaluate the Shield or sell it and move on? My buddy has a 9mm Shield...less than 200 rounds so far. Debating whether or not to send him a link to this thread. Only thing is he's not near as thorough as the crowd here when it comes to pistol shooting.

[ST911]

Still going to continue to evaluate the Shield or sell it and move on?

It's been sitting on the shelf in the box since the last update. I have some ideas, but just can't get the Shield back to the top of the pile right now.


My buddy has a 9mm Shield...less than 200 rounds so far. Debating whether or not to send him a link to this thread. Only thing is he's not near as thorough as the crowd here when it comes to pistol shooting.

Send him the link. If he has a problem, I'd love to hear his data. In the interim, tell him to not obsess. Shoot the gun with different ammo, and if runs, run it and enjoy. The gun in here is a sample of one.

[TR675]

Took the Shield back to the range today. 50 rounds of Winchester 124gr NATO, 50 rounds of Speer Lawman 124 gr, and 50 round of Speer gold dot 124gr +P.

Accuracy remains all over the map; it's a hard gun for me to shoot well.

Reliability was fine until I got to the Gold Dot. This gun does not like defense loads. There was one FTE/FTF which was identical to my previous problem with Winchester 147gr bonded JHP ammo. I knocked off for the day after the malf and will probably send it back to the factory at this point.

ETA: ejection is spotty too. Some cases ranged from 3:30 to 7 o'clock, with one or two hitting me on the top of the head.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/10/yzuvyzy9.jpg

[CCT125US]

TriumphRat675....

What is the round count through that mag? Weak spring combined with higher slide velocity of the +P could cause the issue. However the Winchester Nato is also very stout IMO, so I would expect to see the same issue with that. I like the Win Nato as it duplicates POA / POI with my carry load (GDHP 124gr +P) in the P30.

[TR675]

I've got to change my username.

There's probably less than 200 rounds through the mag. It's a new gun.

Gold Dot plus p gives my full size M&P9 trouble but it works fine with standard pressure RA9B. This Shield has problems with both. So I'm not sure how to diagnose it.

[ST911]

Please make sure you notify S&W of your experience and all pertinent data.

[jkurtz7]

I just got a Shield, so I'll have to do a report too, but I fired 165 rds today, and had one FTExtract with UMC 115 FMJ. Total round count so far is 305. No issues with any JHP ammo I've fired.

[TR675]

I plan on it, unfortunately it's not my first S&W rodeo.

[LSP972]

Good luck. I decided not to invest any more time and ammunition in this gun, and sold both of mine.

After some initial excitement and anticipation, it seems that the new single-stack concealable pistol Glock plans to unveil at the S.H.O.T Show is... a steenkin' .380.

Sigh.

So the search continues.

.

[JodyH]

Sigh.

So the search continues.
That sucks.
My wife's Shield 9mm has been perfect.
Leave it up to S&W to be consistently inconsistent.

I've settled on a H&K P2000Sk 9mm as my primary CCW and a Kahr PM9 as my low profile single stack CCW.
The PM9 gives up 1 round to the Shield, but is a considerably smaller package and both of mine have been perfect for thousands of rounds (I install Wolff 20.5# recoil springs to boost the feed force).

[LSP972]

Jody, still been unable to get my paws on an SK locally. There's a huge pawn shop in Gulfport MS that usually has lots of HKs, but when I went there all they had was P30s and a couple of USPs. Ditto around here.

I had a PM9; I prefer the slightly larger dimensions of the P9. But its trigger "ruins" me for anything else, which is why I abandoned it. Heck, the way this is going, I may go back to the P9 out of desperation. But I'm going to wait and see what Glock does first. They could surprise us yet.

This past week-end (semi-romantic get-away with the wife, to Beau Rivage casino/concert show/extended shopping/etc.) saw me spend two very long days, much of it on my feet, "strapped up", and was graphic evidence that I need something lighter for EDC. Getting old really bites…

.

[JodyH]

The old P9 Covert is the Kahr I'd really like to get my hands on. P9 slide on a PM9 length grip.
I think it would be a great low profile AIWB, the extra slide length would keep the tiny gun from shifting around as much.
I may pick up a P9 and hit the grip with a belt sander and make my own.
:cool:

[KevinB]

I picked up another Shield this week -- my wife's so far has been 100%. I stippled the crap out of mine as I find with hers the gun wants to dance if I shoot a fast cadence (yes I also do hand strength exercises).

All I've shot so far from this one is 50rds of WWB 115gr and 20 rds of 127gr RangerT +P+, needs some sort of Tritium front - AmeriGlo seems to be out of stock, but I can be patient. So far so good -- accuracy is a little better than the wife's gun, but could be due to the confidence I have gripping the gun.

I'm going to shoot it at the next KTSG match from AIWB

[TCinVA]

Took the Shield back to the range today. 50 rounds of Winchester 124gr NATO, 50 rounds of Speer Lawman 124 gr, and 50 round of Speer gold dot 124gr +P.

Accuracy remains all over the map; it's a hard gun for me to shoot well.

Reliability was fine until I got to the Gold Dot. This gun does not like defense loads. There was one FTE/FTF which was identical to my previous problem with Winchester 147gr bonded JHP ammo. I knocked off for the day after the malf and will probably send it back to the factory at this point.

ETA: ejection is spotty too. Some cases ranged from 3:30 to 7 o'clock, with one or two hitting me on the top of the head.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/10/yzuvyzy9.jpg

That's about identical to the stoppages I experienced when I did my Shield test last year. Beyond those two stoppages it didn't give me any other issues in over 2,000 rounds of testing.

[Clay]

My wife's Shield is having the same type of malfunctions noted in this thread, but with Remington 124 +P Golden Saber and Speer 124 +P Gold Dot. Federal 147 HST seems to be okay, at least with the 50 rounds she put through it today.

[Up1911Fan]

My Shield only has 700 rounds through it, but has been 100% with 150 rounds of 147gr Ranger Bonded.

[JodyH]

My wife's Shield (and my PM9) loves the Barnes Tac-XPD ammo.
I picked up 1000 rounds of it at a really nice price a while back and have tested it thoroughly in the little guns with no issues.
It's also very light recoiling and preforms great out of the short barrels in jello tests.

[ST911]

UPDATE (12/15/13)

In late October, I connected with S&W field reps and started the process for a replacement Shield. The replacement was delivered today. Here’s the timeline:

09/30/13- Last range session. Shield dead-lined and shelved.
10/21/13- Contact initiated with S&W field reps.
10/23/13- Call tag issued by the factory. Shield shipped same day.
10/25/13- Shield delivered to the factory.
11/05/13- FFL requested by the factory for shipment of a replacement. Arrangements made and docs provided same day.
12/02/13- Four 8-round magazines received from S&W, gratis.
12/03/13- Status check by me.
12/13/13- Status check by me. Delivery expected before the holidays, pending a production run.
12/15/13- Pistol delivered to me.

In addition to contacts with S&W in the field and the factory, I had opportunity to speak with a number of other Shield owners in detail who provided their own postive and negative experiences, many of which echoed my own. I also received some additional ideas and some motivation to continue to explore the merits and quirks of the Shield line.

Manufacturer: Smith and Wesson
Model: M&P9Shield, p/n 180021
Serial Number: HRY####
Production Date: 12/09/2013

On the web: http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w..._757781_757781

The unboxing and inspection for this gun was nearly identical to the first received.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0247Large.jpg

The very fist thing I noticed after some initial handling was the trigger quality. The first Shield had an easy take up to a definitively rough and stiff wall at the break. This Shield has a softer and cleaner break that is not disagreeable. It is the best I’ve seen in a Shield to date. With the others polishing themselves in a bit with use, improvement in this one should improve it further.

Two magazines were received, one seven and one eight round. The two magazines both had black stripes across the top of the followers. The spring in the 7-rd magazine had a white coating on the coils for its full length that was smooth and dry. I was able to wipe spots of it off clean with a rag. The other magazine spring lacked the coating and was gold-ish in color.

The underside of this slide had six dimples machined.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0248Large.jpg

The barrel had two dimples on its underside just ahead of the lugs.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0249Large.jpg

A review of range logs showed the following loads were involved in previous Shield problems:

Black Hills Ammunition 115gr JHP-EXP erratic ejection, stoppage
Black Hills Ammunition 115gr JHP-XTP +P stoppage
Herters/CCI Blazer 115gr TNJ, no sku erratic ejection
Federal 124gr JHP HydraShok, #P9HS1G erratic ejection, stoppage
Winchester 124gr FMJ NATO, #Q4138 stoppage
Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ, #53620 erratic ejection, stoppage
Federal 147gr JHP HydraShok, #P9HS2G stoppage
Federal 147gr JHP HST, #P9HST2 stoppage

With these loads remaining in stock, they will be the first fired through this Shield when it hits the range in the coming days.

Total rounds on the Shield(2) this session: 0
Shield(2) cumulative total: 0

[MGW]

That's outstanding news. I hope this one works as I'm sure you do too.

This thread has me reevaluating the options out there in this class of pistol.

Let me ask you this, the XDs and Shield are almost identical in size and from your times it appears that you shot the XDs better. What has made you decide to stick with the Shield over the XDs?

[ST911]

Let me ask you this, the XDs and Shield are almost identical in size and from your times it appears that you shot the XDs better. What has made you decide to stick with the Shield over the XDs?

There was more interest in feedback and data on the Shield than any of the others done so far. Some existing Glock users wanted a slimmer option. The existing M&P users wanted a smaller gun (vs the 9c) and liked being able to stay within the brand and support chain. There is also less inherent trust in the XD line as a whole than the M&P line. I ended up liking the XDs much more than I thought I would.

I wasn't really in search of anything but knowledge and experience on the thing. It did grow on me, and I always enjoy a puzzle.

And in no small part, it's also for one of my kiddos. He took a liking to the Shield and waited for each Fedex return with far more anticipation than anyone.

[MGW]

That makes sense. Thanks for the reply.

[jkurtz7]

My Shield was purchased 10/30/2013, and the test fire date on the spent casing envelope is 9/6/2013.

My gun has 7 dimples in the slide, one dimple on the barrel, and two dots on the frame. Here is my round count so far.

10/31/2013
Fiocchi 115 FMJ 50rds, 0 stoppages.
Am. Eagle 115 FMJ, 50rds, 0 stoppages.
Hornady Z-Max 115gr, 25rds, 0 stoppages.
Federal Hyrda-Shok 147gr, 20rds, 0 stoppages.
Rem. Golden Saber 147gr, 10rds, 0 stoppages.

11/9/2013
S&B 115 jhp, 35rds, 0 stoppages.
WWB 115 JHP, 15rds, 0 stoppages.
Rem-UMC 115 FMJ, 50rds, 1 stoppage = fail to extract.
Am. Eagle 115 FMJ, 50rds, 0 stoppages.

11/23/2013
Ranger RA9T, 15rds, 0 stoppages.

Total rounds to date, 320.
Stoppages to date, 1.
Malfunctions to date, 0.

I will note that the Rem-UMC had some weak and erratic ejection. The Hornady Z-Max had weak ejection, but was consistent in pattern. All other ammo had positive ejection. No brass to face with any ammo. The most accurate of all ammo tested was the American Eagle 115 ball.

[ST911]

UPDATE (12/17/2013)

Results from tonight’s range session using ammunition previously involved in erratic performance or stoppages.

Zero verifications, B8 bullseye
Federal 147gr HST, 10rds, ~5” left @ 25yds, elevation okay
Federal 147gr HST, 10rds, ~3” left @ 10yds, elevation okay
Federal 147gr HydraShoks, 10rds, ~6” left @ 25yds, elevation okay

The HST had produced the best group, putting 7/10 rounds into ~4”. Three remaining fliers landing high opened it up quite a bit. An attempt to adjust the sight on the range was unsuccessful, as progressively bigger hammers failed to move it in the dovetail. Further shooting used a little Kentucky windage at distance for best possible hits.

The HSTs ejected to 4:00 or so. A couple of the HydraShoks ejected rearward.

State Department Bureau of Diplomatic Security semi-auto pistol qualification COF
Shot using the remainder of the Federal 147gr HydraShoks, 40rds, A-zone target, 36/40.
During this COF there were multiple, consistent rearward ejection landing on my hat, shoulder, and striking my ear pro. At round #35 on the COF, there was this stoppage:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0251Large.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0254Large.jpg

Hackathorn practice drill
Shot using the remainder of the Federal 147gr HSTs, 30rds, A-zone target, 24/30.
No problems.

LAPD D Platoon Qualification A
Run 1- BHA 115gr JHP-EXP, 50rds, Q target, no problems, 48/50
Run 2- BHA 115gr JHP-XTP +P, 50rds, Q target, no problems, 49/50

On this drill I had a failure to feed. This was due to my middle finger hitting the mag release and dropping it just far enough from the pickup rail to prevent feeding.

D5, various distances
Shot using Federal 124gr HydraShoks, 50rds, A-zone targets
3yd- 2.48 C, 2.80 C
5yd- 2.65 C, 2.75 C
7yd- 2.96 -1, 2.98 C
10yd- 3.83 -1, 3.95 -1, plus two more runs that didn’t time reliably due to range interference

There were a few rearward ejections with this load.

The 3, 5, and 7yd results of this drill are the lowest clean times to date with any Shield.

FBI qualification COF
Shot using Winchester 124gr FMJ NATO, 50rds, and 10 remaining rounds of the BHA 115gr JHP-EXP, Q target, 59/60. No problems.

These rounds landed in a very nice cluster, most all of which would be contained within a IDPA -0 8” circle.

Summary

Ammunition run-down:
60rds Black Hills Ammunition 115gr JHP-EXP
50rds Black Hills Ammunition 115gr JHP-XTP +P
50rds Federal 124gr JHP HydraShok, #P9HS1G
50rds Winchester 124gr FMJ NATO, #Q4138
50rds Federal 147gr JHP HydraShok, #P9HS2G
50rds Federal 147gr JHP HST, #P9HST2

I had several additional boxes of ammunition that included other previously problematic loads, but will save those for a different session and maybe different shooters.

Throughout all exercises, my hold-offs for distance held true further verifying that the gun needs a sight tweak.

By the end of the session, the trigger developed a nice roll-off at the break and was quite pleasant to shoot. The lack of a reset is annoying but not disabling. In dry fire, it can be heard but it is not palpable at all. Fortunately, even limited forward movement of the trigger is enough to reset it.

The FTE with the 147 HydraShok, so early in the session, was disappointing and left me a bit apprehensive about continuing. Nonetheless, the gun received fair consideration and an opportunity to perform through subsequent drills. I will shoot more of the 147 HydraShoks in the future though to see if issues continue.

Except for the first slow fire exercise for POI, all drills were fired from concealment, 3:00 OWB, under a tee shirt.

Total rounds on Shield(2) this session: 310
Shield(2) cumulative total: 310

[TR675]

This FTE (eject? extract? they look like failures to eject to me...) malfunction looks is the most commonly reported problem with the Shields that I've seen around the internet.

The next most common complaints look like they are difficulty locking the slide back and some damage to the recoil spring that tends to accompany that issue.

I have both problems and have to wonder if they are related. It makes sense that if the gun occasionally needs a substantial amount of extra force for the slide to complete the last 1/8" of its travel that the gun will have FTE problems occasionally...

Skintop911, I don't see it mentioned in either of your reviews in this thread, but have you noticed any difficulty retracting or locking the slide back, or issues with the recoil springs?

[JodyH]

When I changed out my Shield sights to an Ameriglo ProGlo, I had to use a Dremel cut off blade and slice the front and rear sights in half to get them out.
You won't be drifting the factory installed sights for windage, they are too tightly fitted for that.
Best bet is just swap them out for hand fitted sights and go from there.

[ST911]

Skintop911, I don't see it mentioned in either of your reviews in this thread, but have you noticed any difficulty retracting or locking the slide back, or issues with the recoil springs?

No trouble opening the slide. The .40 Shield I'm running has a stubborn and sticky slide stop lever but the 9mm is fine. No RSA issues with either.


When I changed out my Shield sights to an Ameriglo ProGlo, I had to use a Dremel cut off blade and slice the front and rear sights in half to get them out. You won't be drifting the factory installed sights for windage, they are too tightly fitted for that. Best bet is just swap them out for hand fitted sights and go from there.

I did manage to get the front drifted last night. It wasn't easy, but was non-destructive. I'll check it in the coming days.

My ultimate plan is to replace the OEM fixed sights with a set of I-Dot Pros. However, I don't want to take on the expense and bother of that until the gun proves reliable. This project is running mostly on my own nickel.

[jkurtz7]

I just picked up two boxes of Tulammo today. I want to try and run that through my Shield this weekend, along with a box of Federal Champion 115 FMJ I have on hand.

If I have any more FTE issues, I'll send the gun back to S&W once to try and fix it right.

[ST911]

I just picked up two boxes of Tulammo today. I want to try and run that through my Shield this weekend, along with a box of Federal Champion 115 FMJ I have on hand.

I ran some Tula in the first one, and it did well. I have quite a bit of the Herters-Tula for this Shield and will get to it eventually.

[Clay]

We ran another 250 rounds through my wife's Shield tonight, 175 of them being a variety of JHP's. She had one FTE with Remington HTP 115 gr JHP. Ejection was pretty erratic with all loads, but there was only the one malfunction. So far I think the best loads in this pistol are 147 grain, and have settled on Speer Gold Dot as a carry load, if my wife decides to carry it, that is.

50 rounds Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
50 rounds Remington HTP 147 gr JHP
50 rounds Remington HTP 115 gr JHP
25 rounds Remington Golden Saber 124 gr +P BJHP
50 rounds American Eagle 115 gr FMJ
25 rounds Winchester 115 gr FMJ
20 rounds assorted leftovers in range bag


Anyone have any idea what would be causing these erratic failures to eject? They don't seem to be that uncommon. Would "limp wristing" play any role in this? I wouldn't think so, but I've never experienced this before.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

When I changed out my Shield sights to an Ameriglo ProGlo, I had to use a Dremel cut off blade and slice the front and rear sights in half to get them out.
You won't be drifting the factory installed sights for windage, they are too tightly fitted for that.
Best bet is just swap them out for hand fitted sights and go from there.

I am NOT allowed to use power tools.
bad things happen when I use power tools.

I have been running in Ameriglo front sight with the factory rear.

I just got my replacement front sight installed today. the last one had the orange drink ring pop off and the tritium back out.

[ST911]

UPDATE (12/18/2013)

More results from a range session this evening.

Zero verifications, sight adjustments
Federal 147gr HST, 48rds @ 25yds, 10yds, B8 bullseyes and 2” circles
Federal 147gr JHP, 10rds @ 25yds
Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ, 10rds @ 25yds

I found that my sight adjustments from last night were a little too much, and had a bit of back-and-forth in bringing them back on target. A hammer and punch is certainly sub-optimal in doing so, but were the only tools available. In the end I was able to get it to an approximate zero with the HSTs with only a slight bias to the right remaining.

One 10rd group @ 25yds scored 85-1X on the B8, the best to date with either Shield. I would like to see a tighter group in the 90s, but I’ll take the progress. That previous best result with Shield(1) was 63-0X. This new score also creeps ahead of the XDs’s 84-0X.

State Department Bureau of Diplomatic Security semi-auto pistol qualification COF
Federal 147gr JHP, 40rds, B21 target, 40/40
Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ, 40rds, B21 target, 37/40

I had a number of rearward ejections striking the brim of my hat and right arm.

FBI qualification COF
Herters-Blazer 115gr TNJ, 60rds, B21 target, 54/60

Several rearward ejections with this load, as well as a few that seemed to go straight up.

South Dakota state LE qualification (http://dci.sd.gov/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=A7kPCUoNY8g%3d&tabid=563&mid=1097)
OH- BHA 124gr JHP-XTP +P, 50rds, B21 target, 50/50
SHO- Federal AE 115gr FMJ, 50rds, B21 target, 40/50

I’ve shot several state qual courses with Shields so far, including but not limited to SD, NE, WY, KS, others. I had this one handy, and it worked with the range limitations I was working with tonight. It’s also a pretty easy one to administer for SHO shooting, which I thought might help produce a problem.

These two loads weren't fired in the other Shield. The BHA had the heaviest recoil impulse and the greatest muzzle rise of any load fired in Shields to date, but caused no malfunctions.

Summary

Ammunition run-down:
60rds Herters-Blazer 115gr TNJ,
50rds Federal American Eagle 115gr FMJ (AE9DP)
50rds Black Hills Ammunition 124gr JHP-XTP +P
50rds Federal 147gr JHP (9MS)
50rds Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ (53620)
48rds Federal 147gr HST (P9HST2)

There were no malfunctions this session. The sole remaining performance note is the erratic ejection, which doesn't seem to have readily identifiable common ammunition-related variable. Even though the erratic ejection is annoying, I’m not particularly concerned about it at this point if it’s not resulting in stoppages. If it's symptomatic of an underlying tolerance stack, it remains to be seen how likely or often a functional threshold will be reached.

Shooting results with this gun remain good. Even where scores don't differ much between Shield(1) and (2), spreads on the target are much improved.

I think I’ll run some Win Ranger 124/127 +P loads, as well as the 147 HST +P to see what they do.

Thanks for the continued input.

Total rounds on Shield(2) this session: 308
Shield(2) cumulative total: 618

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0256Large.jpg

[Salamander]

This FTE (eject? extract? they look like failures to eject to me...) malfunction looks is the most commonly reported problem with the Shields that I've seen around the internet.

The next most common complaints look like they are difficulty locking the slide back and some damage to the recoil spring that tends to accompany that issue.

I have both problems and have to wonder if they are related. It makes sense that if the gun occasionally needs a substantial amount of extra force for the slide to complete the last 1/8" of its travel that the gun will have FTE problems occasionally...

Skintop911, I don't see it mentioned in either of your reviews in this thread, but have you noticed any difficulty retracting or locking the slide back, or issues with the recoil springs?

Last month we had a relatively new and inexperienced shooter on the line with a Shield on a night when I was on range officer duty. She had a FTE a few mags into the evening, similar to the one in Skintop's photo above. I had to intervene because she was getting flustered trying to clear the gun and was getting close to waving it around a bit too much, and it turned out that she was unable to lock the slide back. It was difficult even for me, I had to put some muscle into it. Very difficult to get that last little bit of rearward travel.

The other RSO on duty with me that night said the same person had been there once before with the same gun and had the same problems. He thought she had purchased the gun in the past few weeks so not many rounds through it. It was the California-compliant version of the Shield, I don't recall now what ammo she was shooting but it was inexpensive practice FMJ.

[JodyH]

Took my wife's Shield to the range today because this thread piqued my curiosity about a few things.

50 rounds of Win Value Pack 115 FMJ
16 rounds of Barnes TAC-XPD 115 +P HP (a 8+1 magazine and a 7 magazine, basically straight from her purse to the range)
0 issues, all ejection was consistently 6' or so to my 4 o'clock
We had gusty winds so I wasn't able to really test accuracy but I was 100% on IPSC head shots out to 25 yards.

That brings this pistol up to somewhere around 1500 rounds with zero issues.
I don't have an exact count because my wife has used it in several matches and range sessions and she's not good at keeping count of how many rounds she went through.
1500 is real close though, +/- 100 rounds at most.
The majority of the rounds were shot by her in matches with a few range sessions thrown in so it's been tested under "real world" outdoor range conditions.

This Shield has never been hard to rack or lock back.
Everything feels smooth and the trigger is probably 7#.

[ST911]

UPDATE (12/20/2013)

I shot Shield(2) at a USPSA club shoot. Stage design for the event offered a good opportunity to run the gun through rapid movement, irregular positions, reloads, support side and SHO shooting. For the match, I shot Federal 147gr HSTs to further verify their reliability through that type of shooting. There were no malfunctions of any kind and nothing pertinent to note. When shooting at distance (15-25yds) I had C zone hits when shooting at speeds I normally shoot my G19 at. As took more deliberate effort. Up close, I got good As at my normal speeds. Overall, I was pleased.

This session brings the round count for the HSTs to 140 total without malfunction, and ~585 rounds total since the last malfunction with the 147 HydraShoks.

Total rounds on Shield(2) this session: 42
Shield(2) cumulative total: 660

[JodyH]

Sounds like everything's coming together.

[ST911]

Info request...

Think of the Glock Sport/Combat Holster, here: https://store.teamglock.com/accessories.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Product+Promotions+Branded+%28Desktop %29&utm_term=glock%20combat%20holster&utm_content=sM3gv6wI4|pcrid|30816953059|pkw|glock% 20combat%20holster|pmt|b|pdv|c|

What OWB belt-mounted holster is currently available for the Shield that has the lightest, thinnest, smallest overall footprint and profile for the Shield. Same, for single and double mag pouches? Something truly minimalist. Kydex only.

[GJM]

Custom Carry Concepts Quick Cover and mag pouch.

[JodyH]

Info request...
What OWB belt-mounted holster is currently available for the Shield that has the lightest, thinnest, smallest overall footprint and profile for the Shield. Same, for single and double mag pouches? Something truly minimalist. Kydex only.

Fist #K2 kydex high ride (http://www.fist-holsters.com/vm.html?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=59&category_id=2) is a real low profile OWB.
Fist #1K kydex IWB (http://www.fist-holsters.com/vm.html?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=147&category_id=2) is a great small pistol AIWB.
You will not find a thinner holster than a Fist "thin kydex", the trade off is they won't last more than a few years.

[JodyH]

ooops... post double tap

[Palmguy]

Info request...

Think of the Glock Sport/Combat Holster, here: https://store.teamglock.com/accessories.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Product+Promotions+Branded+%28Desktop %29&utm_term=glock%20combat%20holster&utm_content=sM3gv6wI4|pcrid|30816953059|pkw|glock% 20combat%20holster|pmt|b|pdv|c|

What OWB belt-mounted holster is currently available for the Shield that has the lightest, thinnest, smallest overall footprint and profile for the Shield. Same, for single and double mag pouches? Something truly minimalist. Kydex only.

Too bad Raven doesn't make the Ghost anymore...

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk 4

[KevinB]

Too bad Raven doesn't make the Ghost anymore...

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk 4


Wait for SHOT/slightly after SHOT, I 'think' Raven will have a few new options...

[ST911]

UPDATE (12/27/2013)

Several users have identified Winchester cases as a common variable in Shield malfunctions. Malfunctions reported by two particularly credible owners were with Winchester-loaded and Winchester-cased cartridges exclusively. Therefore, today was Winchester Preview Day.

A trip to Walmart secured a few 100rd bulk packs of the 115 FMJ, along with a 20rd box of the 147gr PDX1 bonded JHP. This purchase is representative of how many owners and CCWers will buy ammunition. The first load, a quantity of something cheap to shoot a little. The second, the smallest container of more expensive carry ammunition available to load the gun and spare magazine with.

With me today was one of my wee-ones, offering plenty of enthusiasm, a smaller and less experienced hand, and a fresh perspective.

His shooting - WWB
77 rounds of bullseye and slow fire drills, plus a short OD/BUG proficiency course.
There was one FTE early in the session at about round #20. (See below)

My shooting
WWB
166 rounds were fired through three runs each on the Strike Level 1 Qual and the Farnam standards. There were two more runs through a 50rd qualification course, one of which was fired SHO. An additional quantity was fired SHO and WHO with the V-block grip (ala Dave Harrington). There were no malfunctions. However, throughout the session I was getting struck in the face, head, or left side of my neck at least every 2/5 rounds.

PDX1
10rds @ 25yds, B8 bullseye, slow-fire, 70-0X, POA/POI.
5rds @ 10yds, B8 bullseye, slow-fire, 50-3X.
D5 @ 7yds, A-zone, <3.0 sec on the turner, clean.

Summary

Ammunition run-down:
243rds Winchester 115gr FMJ, #USA9mmVP
20rds Winchester Supreme 147gr JHP PDX1, #S9mmPDB1

The WWB produced the most consistently erratic ejection to date. There was only one stoppage, but I’ll attribute it mostly to an equally erratic grip in my wee one early in his shooting. If there was something inherently failure-prone in the WWB, I would have expected to see another stoppage somewhere in the remaining 223 rounds fired.

20rds of the PDX1 isn’t enough to determine much of anything about it. It shot to point of aim at distance. The Shield sent five rapidly fired rounds of it downrange accurately without issue. The consumer that bought this box for this Shield on this day would have gotten by. That’s a less than ideal practice, but certainly a common one.

I have much more WWB to work into the rotation and will revisit it in the future.

I managed to hit the magazine release while shooting again, dumping the 8rd magazine in the gun.

Total rounds on Shield(2) this session: 263
Shield(2) cumulative total: 923

[jkurtz7]

I wasn't able to get out last weekend to run any tulammo, due to hard rains. I'll try to get out tomorrow.

[jkurtz7]

I managed to shoot the Shield a bit this morning, but the rain cut the session short.

This trips results.

50 rds Tulammo 115 FMJ= no stoppages.

30 rds Federal Champion 115 FMJ= no stoppages.

20 rds Federal C9BP 115 JHP= no stoppages.

7 rds Win. Ranger RA9T = no stoppages.

All ejection was positive and consistent.

Total rounds this trip=107

Total rounds to date= 427

Total stoppages to date = 1

[ST911]

UPDATE (12/31/2013)

Today’s range session continued my trial of various mediocre practice loads that have been involved in the problem reports of other Shield users. Assisting me on the range tonight was Mrs ST, an able shooter, range companion, and candid contemplator.

Wyoming LE academy pistol proficiency course
PMC 115gr FMJ, 25rds, B21 target, pass

Nebraska LETC instructor Q course
PMC 115gr FMJ, 30rds, B21 target, pass

Various drills, D1, D5, reloads, sight error assessment*
PMC 115gr FMJ, 45rds
Herters-S&B 115gr FMJ, 100rds
WWB 115gr FMJ, 25rds

FAM TPC
WWB 115gr FMJ, 30rds, Q targets. GO on times, NO GO for points (133)

Summary

Ammunition run-down:
100rds PMC 115gr FMJ (9A)
100rds Herters-Sellier & Bellot (HRT9A)
55rds Winchester 115gr FMJ (USA9mmVP)

There were no malfunctions of any kind, and nothing noteworthy about the ejection pattern of any particular load. Again, I don’t discuss ejection solely for itself, as it’s not concerning to me unless a party to a stoppage. Still, it’s of interest to many others. The PMC was a very light load with the mildest recoil yet.

Mrs ST’s regular, longstanding pistol and primary point of comparison is a gen2 G19. Her feedback on the Shield: The Shield was agreeable to shoot. It did want to move in the hand more than larger guns and especially the G19, but not as much as might be expected in these smaller, subcompact guns. She did not care for the shape of the narrower grip or smooth grip surface. The trigger felt longer in travel, and “clunky at the end.” Overall, she would use it if needing something smaller and thinner, but continued to prefer her G19. Her performance on target compared very favorably to the G19 in several respects.

As part of the various drills above, I shot the Shield to assess POI deviations with different sight alignment errors that might be produced in rapid presentations. This involved placing the body of the front sight post above, below, left, and right of the rear notch at distances of 5yds and 7yds. Firing 5rd groups at 5yds, rounds landed at the top and bottom edges of a sheet of standard 8x11 sheet of paper. Groups moved off the edges of the paper to the left and right. Firing 5rds groups at 7yds, rounds ran ~5” high, ~7” low, and ~7” left and right. Proper sight alignment remains ideal, but it’s handy to know the effect of error when faced with sub-optimal shooting conditions.

Completion of the TPC finished the session for the day. I was able to run the gun within times, but missed and lost points in fumbled grips out of the holster. Knowing where the wheels fall off helps determine where to reinforce the machine.

Total rounds on Shield(2) this session: 255
Shield(2) cumulative total: 1178

[ST911]

UPDATE (01/04/2014)

Three more economy practice loads were shot through Shield(2) today, along with some premium ammo.

Farnam standards (12 sec instructor standard)
BHA 124gr JHP +P, 7rds, 8yds, sheet of paper, pass

Various drills, D#, failure drills, concealed and from the ready, various distances
Federal Champion 115gr FMJ, 100rds
PPU Prvi Partizan 115gr FMJ, 100rds

SHO qual run, F.A.S.T. runs
Federal RTP 115gr FMJ 100rds
Quals: Pass
FAST: 6.82 -1H, 7.40 C 6.16 -1B, 6.38 -1H

FAM TPC
BHA 115gr JHP EXP, 30rds, Q targets. NG on stage 4 (fumbled second reload), 135/150

Summary

Ammunition run-down:
7rds Black Hills Ammunition 124gr JHP-XTP (new)
100rds Federal Champion 115gr FMJ (WM51991)
100rds PPU Prvi Partizan 115gr FMJ
100rds Federal 115gr FMJ RTP (Range Training Practice) (RTP9115)
30rds Black Hills Ammunition 115gr JHP-EXP (new)

I started out tonight shooting the Farnam standards cold with full power carry ammo. The Shield had an accumulation of lint, road grime, and snow from BUG ankle carry the last few days. I like this particular COF as it combines several skills in a ammo-efficient drill with a challenging but achievable standard.

These were the first FAST runs with Shield(2), and weren’t much different than Shield(1). I had expected more gains here similar to those seen in other drills.

A fumbled reload on stage 4 of the TPC killed the qual. The first part of the stage came in at 3.18 and was GTG, and then 4.65 did me in. That mag well sure is small sometimes.

There were no malfunctions in which the gun was at fault. In some of the drills with the Champion and PPU I hit the magazine release 2-3 times, popping the magazine loose for a failure to feed. I also noticed far more failures of the slide to lock back this session, so something in my grip needs dry work this week. Ejection pattern for some of the Champion rounds was erratic, with several striking me in the head or landing on my neck. One case ejected vertically and struck the slide on the way down.

I like that this Shield continues to be reliable with even economy training fodder. Working guns should be flexible, and able to pass the Walmart test.

This session marks a milestone in this project. Shield(2) has fired 1515rds since 12/17/2013, surpassing Shield(1)‘s round count of 1309rds. In accumulating that total, it has done so with a greater variety of ammunition in more intensive range sessions, with two stovepipes and some erratic ejection. As I’ve noted before though, erratic ejection isn’t particularly troubling to me unless it corresponds with a stoppage.

Unfortunately, they continue for some. Just yesterday, a friend brought his new Shield to the range with a box of WWB and had a stovepipe at about the ~25rd mark of a COF. He fired about 50 total for the day. I caught it before he cleared it on the run, and it was the same as seen in the pics above. He’ll shoot that gun much more, and I’ll have opportunity to see what it does in the future.

With a reasonable track record of reliability of my gun now established, it’s time for a sight upgrade.

Total rounds on Shield(2) this session: 337
Shield(2) cumulative total: 1515

[ST911]

UPDATE (01/15/2014)

Tonight was Corbon night for Shield(2).

D3, D5 - various distances
Corbon 115gr FMJ, 100rds, IDPA target. No problems.

LAPD D Platoon Qualification A
Corbon 95gr FMJ, 50rds, IDPA target, -9. No problems.

FBI qualification COF
Corbon 100gr Pow’RBall, 60rds, IDPA target, -7. 1 stoppage, see below.

Hackathorn practice drill
Corbon 115gr JHP, 30rds, IDPA target, -12. No problems.

Summary

Ammunition run-down:
100rds Corbon Performance Match 115gr FMJ
52rds Corbon 95gr Performance Match FMJ
60rds Corbon Pow’RBall 100gr +P (PB09100/20)
37rds Corbon 115gr JHP

I picked these Corbon loads in particular for several reasons. This particular 115gr FMJ has been quite accurate in several other semi-autos. All of these loads have a visibly shorter OAL than most others in their weight class, and can be quirky feeders in some guns. Even when functioning reliably in known-good guns, moments of hesitation can be felt in extended sessions. The Pow’RBall came up in discussion with a colleague whose agency suggests in use in their OD/BUGs. And for travel to the NYC metro area, the Shield, 7-round magazines, and Pow’RBall offers a CCW combination that doesn’t require periodic reconfiguration.

With the exception of the Pow’RBall load, all loads are standard pressure and loaded in Starline brass. The 115gr loads are advertised at ~1200fps from the 4.0” test barrel. The Pow‘RBall is loaded with a Corbon headstamp, and brass origin is unknown. All loads were tame in recoil. Even the +P Pow’RBall handled easily in the Shield and shot to point of aim during these practical exercises.

There was one stoppage with the Pow'RBall early in the FBI qual. After shooting three rounds WHO, the next live round became stuck in the ejection port upside down with the primer skyward. The chamber was empty, and one round remained in the magazine. I didn't have opportunity to photograph it in place. The empty case preceding it had ejected cleanly.

The white paint in the recesses of the three-dot sights has progressively eroded to the point that it’s barely visible or appears oblong. While it can mostly be ignored, it’s sometimes visually distracting. I've now blacked out the rear, and hit the front with some high-visibility model paint.

I shot on IDPA targets tonight. Scores above are for points-down in IDPA scoring, and all misses -1s. All misses today seemed attributable to grip acquisition issues at speed. I felt a pretty consistent stutter at the holster I don’t have an explanation for but needs correction with dry fire.

My next Corbon outing will add DPX to the mix, along with the high velocity, high pressure loads that are their stock in trade.

Total rounds on Shield(2) this session: 249
Shield(2) cumulative total: 1764

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0263.jpg

[Mitchell, Esq.]

UPDATE (01/15/2014)

Tonight was Corbon night for Shield(2).

D3, D5 - various distances
Corbon 115gr FMJ, 100rds, IDPA target. No problems.

LAPD D Platoon Qualification A
Corbon 95gr FMJ, 50rds, IDPA target, -9. No problems.

FBI qualification COF
Corbon 100gr Pow’RBall, 60rds, IDPA target, -7. 1 stoppage, see below.

Hackathorn practice drill
Corbon 115gr JHP, 30rds, IDPA target, -12. No problems.

Summary

Ammunition run-down:
100rds Corbon Performance Match 115gr FMJ
52rds Corbon 95gr Performance Match FMJ
60rds Corbon Pow’RBall 100gr +P (PB09100/20)
37rds Corbon 115gr JHP

I picked these Corbon loads in particular for several reasons. This particular 115gr FMJ has been quite accurate in several other semi-autos. All of these loads have a visibly shorter OAL than most others in their weight class, and can be quirky feeders in some guns. Even when functioning reliably in known-good guns, moments of hesitation can be felt in extended sessions. The Pow’RBall came up in discussion with a colleague whose agency suggests in use in their OD/BUGs. And for travel to the NYC metro area, the Shield, 7-round magazines, and Pow’RBall offers a CCW combination that doesn’t require periodic reconfiguration.

With the exception of the Pow’RBall load, all loads are standard pressure and loaded in Starline brass. The 115gr loads are advertised at ~1200fps from the 4.0” test barrel. The Pow‘RBall is loaded with a Corbon headstamp, and brass origin is unknown. All loads were tame in recoil. Even the +P Pow’RBall handled easily in the Shield and shot to point of aim during these practical exercises.

There was one stoppage with the Pow'RBall early in the FBI qual. After shooting three rounds WHO, the next live round became stuck in the ejection port upside down with the primer skyward. The chamber was empty, and one round remained in the magazine. I didn't have opportunity to photograph it in place. The empty case preceding it had ejected cleanly.

The white paint in the recesses of the three-dot sights has progressively eroded to the point that it’s barely visible or appears oblong. While it can mostly be ignored, it’s sometimes visually distracting. I've now blacked out the rear, and hit the front with some high-visibility model paint.

I shot on IDPA targets tonight. Scores above are for points-down in IDPA scoring, and all misses -1s. All misses today seemed attributable to grip acquisition issues at speed. I felt a pretty consistent stutter at the holster I don’t have an explanation for but needs correction with dry fire.

My next Corbon outing will add DPX to the mix, along with the high velocity, high pressure loads that are their stock in trade.

Total rounds on Shield(2) this session: 249
Shield(2) cumulative total: 1764

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/SW%20MP%20Shield%209mm/IMG_0263.jpg

Would you consider the shield reliable enough to carry based on its performance so far?

[JodyH]

I bought a second Shield a week ago or so for myself after my wife's has performed so well.
I'd have no issues carrying one that had shot the way Skintop911's has up to now.

[ST911]

Would you consider the shield reliable enough to carry based on its performance so far?


I bought a second Shield a week ago or so for myself after my wife's has performed so well.
I'd have no issues carrying one that had shot the way Skintop911's has up to now.

I'm carrying it as a BUG, not a primary. When loaded with verified ammo, and in that role, I'm okay with it.

It begs a question though... What is a reasonable expectation of failure rate for guns of certain categories and roles? This most recent stoppage is the third in 1764rds, but is a pretty odd one and with a designer round. The WWB stovepipe was not unexpected, but occurred with a kiddo's grip and runs fine with mine. The remaining was with the 147gr HydraShok, a case of which ran without issue in every other gun tried. I'm not inclined to be too hard on the gun here, but with many times that round count through others without any stoppage at all...with the same ammo...it's at least a bit irksome.

And to its credit, Shield(2) has fired a goodly number of other loads (19/22) without issue. The consolidated list by manufacturer:

52rds Corbon 95gr Performance Match FMJ
60rds Corbon Pow’RBall 100gr +P (PB09100/20)
100rds Corbon Performance Match 115gr FMJ
37rds Corbon 115gr JHP

90rds Black Hills Ammunition 115gr JHP-EXP (new)
50rds Black Hills Ammunition 115gr JHP-XTP +P
57rds Black Hills Ammunition 124gr JHP-XTP +P

100rds Federal 115gr FMJ RTP (RTP9115)
50rds Federal American Eagle 115gr FMJ (AE9DP)
100rds Federal Champion 115gr FMJ (WM51991)
50rds Federal 124gr JHP HydraShok, #P9HS1G
50rds Federal 147gr JHP HydraShok, #P9HS2G
140rds Federal 147gr JHP HST, #P9HST2
50rds Federal 147gr JHP (9MS)
50rds Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ (53620)

298rds Winchester 115gr FMJ (USA9mmVP)
20rds Winchester Supreme 147gr JHP PDX1, #S9mmPDB1
50rds Winchester 124gr FMJ NATO, #Q4138

100rds PPU Prvi Partizan 115gr FMJ
100rds PMC 115gr FMJ (9A)
100rds Herters-Sellier & Bellot (HRT9A)
60rds Herters-Blazer 115gr TNJ

[JodyH]

If it'll shoot 250 rounds of my carry ammo with no malfunctions I'm good with it.
FMJ is so bad these days I don't worry if it chokes on it occasionally. I also don't get wrapped up about x rounds between cleanings.

Basically:
If it shoots the first 2 magazines of carry ammo 100% of the time for around 250 rounds it's good for me.

[ST911]

UPDATE (02/23/2014)

I haven't had Shield(2) out since Jan 15, and was reminded me that I had some more loads to run. Unless some particular data set is developed or requested, I'll transition to sharing just simple ammunition totals and any problems as reported.

Ammunition run-down for today:
50rds Magtech 115gr FMC (9A)
50rds HSM 100gr Reduced Ricochet (Frang)
50rds AE IRT 147gr TMJ (AE9N2)

The sole malfunction today was with the AE, which failed to feed one round. That round ended up with it's headstamp pointed out of the ejection port, stopping the gun. The expended case preceding it cleared fine and there were no other issues with that load.

Several thousand rounds of the HSM frangible have been quirky in M9s and commercial 92FSs, but fine in various 9mm Glocks. There were no stoppages in the Shield, but virtually every single round of the 50 fired ejected at the 6:00 striking my hat or right shoulder.

My last handling of the Shield was 30+ days ago. The lack of practice with it showed in the first exercises fired which were slower and more erratic than when shooting the Shield more frequently. That's not unexpected, but I hadn't expected the difference to be as obvious as it was.

Total rounds on Shield(2) this session: 150
Shield(2) cumulative total: 1914

[JM Campbell]

Are your mags marked? I ask because of the mag design. Could it actually be the mags in these feeding/extraction issues?
It would be interesting to see if the same mag is present for the malfunctions.

[ST911]

Are your mags marked? I ask because of the mag design. Could it actually be the mags in these feeding/extraction issues?
It would be interesting to see if the same mag is present for the malfunctions.

I mark all of my mags with a unique identifier, so I do watch for that. I'm rotating eight mags with Shield(2), and it doesn't source to a mag by individual body or by capacity. With Shield(1), issues didn't follow a particular mag, and there were only 1-3 at any given time with that gun.

What are thinking with the mag design?

[JM Campbell]

I'm no expert, looking at the mags and how it is staggered and not a true single stack I could see how spring tension could be an issue. I've noticed on my mags the follower hangs up once in a blue moon/seems to tilt too much side to side (2 flush and 3 extended). Could be me over thinking it though.

[ST911]

UPDATE (03/20/2014)

Ammunition run-down for today:
100rds PPU Prvi Partizan 115gr FMJ

I had Shield(2) with me last night during some down time on the range. During a run of the Nebraska BUG course (shot first) I had a FTE with the PPU at round #15 of the 25rd course. That part of the stage is a D5 from concealment at the 5yd line. Later, I shot the new FBI Q course and had an identical FTE on stage 2 during a D3 from concealment at the 5yd line. That was about round #52 or so for the day. The balance of the COF went fine. I didn't have a camera with me, but the cases in both FTEs were horizontal, mouth forward, and were cleared easily. Ejection through the 100rds was erratic, with a number rearward. As always, I don't get too excited about that until the gun stops.

The PPU functioned fine during a range session on 01/04/2014, which was also reported here.

Total rounds on Shield(2) this session: 100
Shield(2) cumulative total: 2014

[Chuck Haggard]

I have a case of PPU 9mm 115gr that I got in trade from the company due to the first case of ammo I had bought having primers made of armor plate or something.

This case has been shooting fine, but I note that recoil is erratic. I think their powder charge is on the light side, and in some rounds lighter than others. Twice now I have unloaded the gun to be sure I didn't just have a squib.

I'd crono this stuff to see what the velocity is but my crono died on me. Just an observation ref the ammo quality potentially being an issue.

[ST911]

I have a case of PPU 9mm 115gr that I got in trade from the company due to the first case of ammo I had bought having primers made of armor plate or something.

This case has been shooting fine, but I note that recoil is erratic. I think their powder charge is on the light side, and in some rounds lighter than others. Twice now I have unloaded the gun to be sure I didn't just have a squib.

I'd crono this stuff to see what the velocity is but my crono died on me. Just an observation ref the ammo quality potentially being an issue.

Good info, thanks Chuck.

After I shot the Shield, I ran another 50rds of the PPU in my G17. No issues, but it's not a direct or fair comparison for any of them. I have a few more boxes of the PPU and another couple of Shields in house. I'll chrono and compare.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

This is a photo of brass extracted from a 9mm shield.

124 grain +p Win PDX1

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=28695F61533B4EBC!1567&authkey=!AO56ISEu4G-6v64&v=3&ithint=photo%2c.jpg

Is this what a potential case blowout looks like?

[psalms144.1]

This is a photo of brass extracted from a 9mm shield.

124 grain +p Win PDX1

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=28695F61533B4EBC!1567&authkey=!AO56ISEu4G-6v64&v=3&ithint=photo%2c.jpgIs this what a potential case blowout looks like?I don't reload at all anymore, but I would never, ever, ever even try to resize a case that looked like that. As my Russian friends would say: "Dis iss proeblehm..."

[Mitchell, Esq.]

I also fired several other types of ammo:

Primers:

124grain+p WIN PDX1
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=28695F61533B4EBC!1510&authkey=!ANxX8Jvrk6kjM44&v=3&ithint=photo%2c.jpg

115 grain +p+ GD
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=28695F61533B4EBC!1509&authkey=!AHwYRBCFRIrHGhA&v=3&ithint=photo%2c.jpg
I think those look fine.

Hornady 135gr+p
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=28695F61533B4EBC!1507&authkey=!ACh63ooDXZ33W5g&v=3&ithint=photo%2c.jpg
Those appear fine as well

124gp+p HST
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=28695F61533B4EBC!1511&authkey=!AAKTaJbe8nqAB84&v=3&ithint=photo%2c.jpg



Some other possible pressure signs I observed were a slight bulge at the base of the case on some HST ammo:

HST
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=28695F61533B4EBC!1527&authkey=!AAS5BN6aOAOmz_c&v=3&ithint=photo%2c.jpg
Potential issue close up https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=28695F61533B4EBC!1568&authkey=!ANeAvDC8yMDX6vE&v=3&ithint=photo%2c.jpg
Another photo https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=28695F61533B4EBC!1569&authkey=!ABhqNRrsp-pKIbk&v=3&ithint=photo%2c.jpg


The 135 grain+p Hornady did not show any extreme signs like the Winchester but the cases show, for lack of a better term...a doughnut style enlargement at the base of the brass. Not extreme, but noticeable on some brass.

Some of them look like this:

135 grain critical duty +p brass: https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=28695F61533B4EBC!1572&authkey=!ADvZDz_yUsDCxYo&v=3&ithint=photo%2c.jpg

And

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=28695F61533B4EBC!1571&authkey=!ANAFuKxt8oFf8Kw&v=3&ithint=photo%2c.jpg

I have about 200 rounds of the 135 grain +p through the gun, and all fed/fired/extracted without issue.

Would you guys be concerned if you observed this kind of marks or defamation on the ejected brass?

[psalms144.1]

Brother, ALL of those primer pictures flat scare me. They all look like they're exhibiting dangerously high pressures. We train with M882 NATO ball, which if fairly hot ammunition, and I've never see primer flow-back and near cratering like what you're seeing. I would seriously forward those photos to S&W and ask them to take a HARD look at your Shield!

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Brother, ALL of those primer pictures flat scare me. They all look like they're exhibiting dangerously high pressures. We train with M882 NATO ball, which if fairly hot ammunition, and I've never see primer flow-back and near cratering like what you're seeing. I would seriously forward those photos to S&W and ask them to take a HARD look at your Shield!

Yeah.

I'm deadlining the shield pending a trip back to smith.

Back to the glock 26...

Is this a gun or ammo problem? I've never had an issue with any of that ammo with glocks.

[Westtexasrancher]

Bump........

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Its back with a new barrel.

100 fed 124gr +p+ hydrashock, 50 win pdx1 124 gr +p, 50 147 win bonded rangers, 70 135 gr +p critical duty and 300 rounds of various ball ammo.

All fed, fired & extracted w/o issue.

A few hangups with rounds nosediving on the feed ramp when I loaded the gun from slide lock and don't recall if I firmly seated the magazine, so I call those three user error.

Much better now that I have a barrel that is in spec...

[LSP972]

So, SkinTop911, have you passed judgement yet on the Shield?

As noted earlier, I gave up and sold mine. I've been plodding along with the HK45C, and wonder of wonders, stumbled across a 3953 a few weeks ago; and then found nine like-new magazines for a decent price on the S&W Forum the very next day. More than coincidence, I'd say…:)

Tomorrow morning will be the first serious session with the 3953 (been waiting on a carry holster & mag pouch). Truth be told, I'm really holding out for the promised new HK sub-compact (P30SK, VP9SK, or whatever it will be)… but I'm not holding my breath for that one.

Maybe the 3953 will be a viable stop-gap. Whatever the outcome, I'm looking forward to working with it.

.

[ST911]

UPDATE

Reference post #81, 9/13/13
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9056-REVIEW-SW-M-amp-P-Shield-9mm-w-Range-Results/page9


UPDATE

When I asked specifically about my magazines, the tech advised that none had been logged in when the gun was received. He was very gracious however, and said that two new magazines would be ordered for me. He could not advise when they would ship as they did not have any, demand was high, and that “it may be awhile.”

UPS delivered these two replacement magazines, one 7rd and one 8rd, yesterday (12/20/14).

[MGW]

I guess demand was Really high for those magazines.

[MGW]

Without digging back through this entire thread again has anyone had issues with their Shield shooing left? This is my second Shield and I'm missing 2-3" left at 7 yards. It gets progressively worse as I move back.

This is my pattern at 25 yards. I was actually holding on the right edge of the 7 ring. Ammo was 115 gr Rem UMC. Same results with 115 Sellier and Bellot.
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/04/9336ff2778ef845b1e1231b1de31f02c.jpg

That's actually 15 rounds. Two missed to the left of the target.

For comparison this is a group from the 42. Same day, same distance.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/04/815b5f6ded85d29a291c09876995545a.jpg

One more picture, this is the barrel in battery. It's difficult to see but the barrel is sitting low and right. I'm not sure if this is causing the left point of impact or not.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/04/844616428b58980f4206871a59ae0a81.jpg

I thought about drifting the rear sight but it looks like it will hang over the slide if I drift it at all.

I haven't shot this pistol much. Only have 450 rounds through it but I don't see much point in shooting it more until I get the sights fixed. Low round count but function and ejection has been fine with various FMJ including WWB, 124 Gold Dot, and 124+p Ranger.

Any thoughts?

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Without digging back through this entire thread again has anyone had issues with their Shield shooing left? This is my second Shield and I'm missing 2-3" left at 7 yards. It gets progressively worse as I move back.

This is my pattern at 25 yards. I was actually holding on the right edge of the 7 ring. Ammo was 115 gr Rem UMC. Same results with 115 Sellier and Bellot.
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/04/9336ff2778ef845b1e1231b1de31f02c.jpg

That's actually 15 rounds. Two missed to the left of the target.

For comparison this is a group from the 42. Same day, same distance.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/04/815b5f6ded85d29a291c09876995545a.jpg

One more picture, this is the barrel in battery. It's difficult to see but the barrel is sitting low and right. I'm not sure if this is causing the left point of impact or not.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/04/844616428b58980f4206871a59ae0a81.jpg

I thought about drifting the rear sight but it looks like it will hang over the slide if I drift it at all.

I haven't shot this pistol much. Only have 450 rounds through it but I don't see much point in shooting it more until I get the sights fixed.

Any thoughts?

Write Smith a detailed email, attach photos and await a Fed-Ex thing in your in-box.

[CCT125US]

You could always drift the FS to line up. My 22C arrived with the FS and RS centered on the slide as it should be. But shot 2 inches right at 10 yards. Adjusting the rear notch to POI resulted in an unacceptable sight picture and presentation. When viewing the gun from a similar angle you show, i could see the FS was not actually centered over the bore. For a .22 plinker I decided I could live with a FS not centerd and opted not to send it in.

[ST911]

Nevermind...reading is fundamental. :)

[TR675]

Without digging back through this entire thread again has anyone had issues with their Shield shooing left? This is my second Shield and I'm missing 2-3" left at 7 yards. It gets progressively worse as I move back.

This is my pattern at 25 yards. I was actually holding on the right edge of the 7 ring. Ammo was 115 gr Rem UMC. Same results with 115 Sellier and Bellot...I thought about drifting the rear sight but it looks like it will hang over the slide if I drift it at all.

I haven't shot this pistol much. Only have 450 rounds through it but I don't see much point in shooting it more until I get the sights fixed. Low round count but function and ejection has been fine with various FMJ including WWB, 124 Gold Dot, and 124+p Ranger.

Yep, same problem with mine. I've kind of deadlined it for now. I tried to drift the rear sight - no luck with a punch or a sight pusher. Thing is in there permanent-like. I may try the front. I've been planning on swapping out the sights in any event so I may just send it out for that instead.