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View Full Version : Who carries a snubby?



cathellsk
02-25-2011, 05:57 PM
Due to a bad back I find myself, at times, not able to wear a belt holster and carry my Glock 19 or 26. I usually carry a S&W J frame in a pocket holster loaded with 135gr.+P Speer Gold Dot. I practice alot with these snubbies, especially reloads with speed strips and speed loaders, and feel comfortable with them. Obviously the biggest drawback is on board ammo capacity.

Does anyone else carry a snubby and what loads, holsters, etc. do you prefer?

I usually carry a 642-1, but also rotate a 36-7 and 60-7 on occasion.

firecop019
02-25-2011, 06:19 PM
I carry a SW 342, loaded with 135gr gold dots. I'll be switching to something different when those are gone. I've got a bit of arthritis in my right thumb and those hot little rounds hurt a lot.

I carry it as a backup gun on duty in a pocket holster and off duty in either a cheap galco IWB holster that I've had for a few years or a blackhawk cqc sportster in the appendix position right side. That position seems to offer the quickest draw. For my reload I carry a speed strip. Used to carry 2 but the dog ate one after I left it empty on the bed stand after practice. I tried the HKS speedloader but the crimson trace grips interfered with it enough that I can't use them.

Jay Cunningham
02-25-2011, 06:26 PM
Does anyone else carry a snubby and what loads, holsters, etc. do you prefer?

I have a Ruger LCR and a S&W 642 J-Frame. I carry both in pocket holsters, one a DeSantis Nemesis and the other a no-name leather that came with the gun. As far as ammunition, I have both COR BON DPX 110 gr. +p and Winchester 125 gr. +p JHP, but not because I consider either one to be some kind of "ultimate" round.

I have CT lasers on both.

David
02-25-2011, 07:23 PM
I have a LCR which I love, no matter if I carry something else the LCR always goes with me as well for a BUG.

http://home.comcast.net/~357magnum/bilder/riding.jpg

KevH
02-25-2011, 07:46 PM
I carry a 442 with CT grips and 135gr +P Gold Dots.

It lives in a Kramer pocket holster as a BUG on duty and in cargo shorts in the summer.

In the winter it rides in a Renegade ankle rig.

TCinVA
02-25-2011, 08:17 PM
I carry a S&W 442 with Crimson Trace grips on it loaded with 135 grain +P Gold Dot ammunition every day of my life. If I'm wearing pants, the 442 is usually in the pocket. I carry a Safariland speedloader for a reload because it offers the best reload for the little revolver that I've found.

Generally the 442 acts as a BUG to a hicap 9mm pistol like my P30, but not infrequently it is my primary or only handgun due to being in a non-permissive environment. While no one should kid themselves about the capabilities of a J frame, in all truth they are "enough" gun to handle most of the situations your average citizen is likely to encounter...if you're good enough with it. That being said, if I woke one morning with the absolute conviction that being alive to go to bed that night would require shooting someone in the face, there is no way the 442 would be my first choice...but I rarely find myself facing such peril.

The snag, at least in my experience, is that few people really train to use a J frame properly. When I see them pulled out at the range the accuracy standards seem to be hitting some massive target at three yards somewhere and pronouncing that to be "good enough". They are hard to shoot, but that's all the more reason to hold yourself to a high accuracy standard at the range. If the best you can manage is minute of barn door accuracy on a one way range under no stress, I fail to see how you can expect to intelligently direct bullets when under stress.

I firmly believe that J frames are one of the most versatile and practical carry gun options on the market. There's a reason why the snubnosed revolver format has been around since the old, old days:

http://www.rockislandauction.com/photos/46/p_standard/GQS15-K-F1-H.jpg

It's just critical that people learn to use them properly. CT grips are a godsend to the snub-nosed revolver. If you aren't using them, buy some ASAP.

Rverdi
02-25-2011, 08:23 PM
S&W 642 in an Alessi ankle holster, loaded with 135+ gold dots. It's a backup to my primary and I usually have it, though not everyday.
J Frames are just so friggin functional, I couldn't imagine not having one available at all times. It's an ideal backup and on those occasions when I can't be visibly armed and can't wear an outer garment, it's my primary and I'm pretty comfortable I can fight my way out with my 642 and a couple of speed strips

F-Trooper05
02-25-2011, 08:33 PM
I keep an LCR in my car. I'll throw it in my pocket whenever I'm leaving the gym and only wearing PT's. Other than that, I'm strictly a semi-auto guy.

Joe in PNG
02-25-2011, 10:49 PM
A S&W 64 w/2"bbl- traded in a Kel-Tec PF-9 to get it. I usually carry it in an Uncle Mike's pocket holster.

boyscoutg36
02-26-2011, 02:59 AM
Over the years I've carried a few different SW snubbies, but I always end up with a 642 of some kind. I really like it as an ankle gun, the shape and weight make it ideal in this role for me. I've had a couple Ti Jframes, but I found fast follow up shots difficult and couldn't justify the minimal weight difference. I always appendix carry a G26, for some reason I just never really carry my Jframes appendix style though.

Dandapani
02-26-2011, 08:00 AM
I carry a S/W 940, 9mm!, Centennial stainless steel snub in my pocket most of the time in the summer. Here in FL it is hot most of the year and pocket carry in shorts works well since cover garment is usually a light tee-shirt.

Pennzoil
02-26-2011, 03:13 PM
I carry a S/W 940, 9mm!, Centennial stainless steel snub in my pocket most of the time in the summer. Here in FL it is hot most of the year and pocket carry in shorts works well since cover garment is usually a light tee-shirt.

Dam I'm jealous!

I carry a 642 at home in a don hume pocket holster with a speed strip when primary is in the safe. The gun shoots awesome but I need to find a 9mm j frame due to my hate for having to stock multiple calibers. I was hoping S&W would bring back the 940 but I may have to start checking gun broker.

MechEng
02-26-2011, 03:50 PM
I carry a Ruger SP101 .357 AIWB around the house when I do yard work. It doesn't sit so low in my waistband that I can't bend over, climb a ladder or crawl under my truck to change the oil. I have it loaded with 125 gr GoldDots and carry it in an old leather IWB no name brand holster I found at a gun show.

TCinVA
02-26-2011, 03:59 PM
S&W discontinued the 9mm revolvers some time ago as they were plagued by extraction problems. I searched for one for the longest time, but to no avail. The 9mm revolvers that are out there are generally commanding collector grade prices.

I would welcome new S&W 9mm revolvers.

David Armstrong
02-26-2011, 06:25 PM
642 with CT grip in an Uncle Mike's pocket holster. It is my primary carry most of the time these days.

EricP
02-26-2011, 07:07 PM
A S&W 637 (with a bobbed hammer) is a constant companion. It is loaded with 135 gr Gold Dots. After trying an assortment of pocket holsters, I settled on a Desantis Nemesis.

I'm in complete agreement that Crimson Trace grips are a worthwhile addition.

Chuck Haggard
02-27-2011, 12:09 AM
I carry one of a few .38 J frames that I own on a daily basis. My use for the J frame is as a BUG.

My favorite and most carried snubs are my S&W 642s. I vary between Cor Bon DPX and the 135gr Gold Dot for carry ammo.

Each of my guns has a CT laser grip.


I bought a S&W 317 a few years ago as a .22 training tool for my snubbies, a role at which it excels, but it is so lightweight and handy that I have been known to be carrying it when I am in the woods, just in case I am attacked by a rabbit.

Chuck Haggard
02-27-2011, 12:12 AM
Dam I'm jealous!
.... but I need to find a 9mm j frame due to my hate for having to stock multiple calibers. I was hoping S&W would bring back the 940 but I may have to start checking gun broker.


I used to have a 940. Two trips back to S&W later it still had severe extraction issues. S&W eventually admitted they could not fix the gun and I ended up with a 642 instead.

This issue with the 940s was very common, and one reason why they quit making that model.

Jay Cunningham
02-27-2011, 12:15 AM
I bought a S&W 317 a few years ago as a .22 training tool for my snubbies, a role at which it excels, but it is so lightweight and handy that I have been known to be carrying it when I am in the woods, just in case I am attacked by a rabbit.

http://www.moviemobsters.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/rabbitattack.jpg

ToddG
02-27-2011, 12:25 AM
You mock the death of Sir Gawain? Total societal collapse cannot be far behind.

Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

Chuck Haggard
02-27-2011, 09:34 AM
I know that rabbit, he's got a mean streak a mile wide!

MTechnik
02-27-2011, 09:53 AM
A vorpal bunny!

BobM
02-27-2011, 10:05 AM
I have an old 642 w/CT grips in my left pocket whether on or off duty. When S&W came out recently with the no-lock versions I got one to keep as a spare.
Once in a while I carry a Ruger SP101 in .357.

MechEng
02-27-2011, 12:56 PM
.22 isn't going to help you with the bunnies. You need the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch. (http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/photos/uncategorized/2009/03/23/holygrail189.jpg)

David Pennington
02-27-2011, 09:16 PM
I frequently carry a 642-2 no-lock with CTC grips and Speer 135gr +P Gold Dots in either an Alessi APX, Kramer pocket holster, or Renegade ankle holster. The APX works wonderfully with the J-frame. When I carry spare ammo it is in either a Safariland speedloader or Bianchi Speed Strips.

mlk18
03-01-2011, 02:18 PM
My trusty Smith & Wesson 642 goes pretty much wherever I go. Sometimes it's a primary, sometimes it's a BUG, sometimes it's just a long for the ride. I have owned a lot of guns over the years but there are few that I am more attached to than this j-frame. I use a Blackhawk Speed Classic for OWB and a DeSantis Nemesis for pocket carry. My carry ammo is Speer Short Barrel 125gr +P. Of course I always take a long a couple speed strips as well.

MDS
03-01-2011, 08:35 PM
I used to carry my father's old 442 with Corbon DPX. When I got a good holster and was able to carry my USPc even in the Florida summers, I stopped carrying the J frame.

Now it's a training tool, mostly. I dry-fired that heavy DA trigger a few thousand times over the course of a couple of months. I recently got a 6" 617 that's even better for dry-fire trigger pulls. I still do dummy drills with the 442 every couple of weeks - it really helps me learn to "accept the recoil" instead of fighting it.

As for killer bunnies, the established TTP is as follows. The count shall be to three, and three is the number of the counting. Four is too many, and five is right out. Two is too few, unless thou shalt then proceed to three. And if (when!) all else fails - run away!

fm2
03-02-2011, 10:20 AM
I carry a 642 quite often in the spring, due to my activities.
I run the Werner set up and short barrel 125 or 135 gr. ammo from Speer.

joshs
03-02-2011, 10:27 AM
I carry a lasergripped 442 in a Smartcarry while running and occasionally as a BUG in my front left pocket. For ammo, I use either the Speer 135 +p Gold Dot or the standard pressure Buffalo Bore full wadcutter.

SmokeJumper
03-02-2011, 05:45 PM
I carry S&W 442 with CT laser grips as my BUG on/off work. Using Federal Hydra Shok or Remington Golden Saber JHP loads. It's carried in a 5Shot Leather ankle rig with a spare speed strip at work. Away from work it's carried in the ankle rig or in an Uncle Mikes pocket holster pulling BUG duty.

WBower
03-03-2011, 02:31 PM
I would welcome new S&W 9mm revolvers.

As would I. The further down the rabbit hole I go, the more and more I seek caliber commonality in my firearms. I really don't want to add .38 or .357 to the mix at this point.

willowofwisp
03-03-2011, 07:36 PM
I have a 442 No Lock with CT grips coming in on tuesday, I plan on painting the front sight on it and tossing it in my alessi ankle holster.

TCinVA
03-03-2011, 11:39 PM
As would I. The further down the rabbit hole I go, the more and more I seek caliber commonality in my firearms. I really don't want to add .38 or .357 to the mix at this point.

My lust for a 9mm J frame is also partially explained by the fact that .38 ammo is about double the cost of 9mm ammo these days.

Odin Bravo One
03-04-2011, 04:13 AM
I am not up to speed on the various latest and greatest "what can be done" stuff. Let's be honest, I am more knuckle dragging gorilla than SME.....but I had a 627 converted to 9mm for the very reason mentioned by TC. I don't remember exactly what it cost, but it was not all that much, and paid for itself within a few trips to the range. I am looking at doing that to the 2 J-Frames in the safe in the near future. Plus, .357 Mag in a superlight J-Frame doesn't do much for me.

David Pennington
03-04-2011, 07:33 AM
http://www.moonclips.com/

These guys do the .38/.357 to 9mm conversions. FWIW, the 9mm is considered to be a bit "much" pressure wise for the aluminum guns.

TCinVA
03-04-2011, 07:52 AM
Even so, I would happily buy a steel gun just for practice and shoot mild 9mm FMJ through it most of the time. I may have to avail myself of their services...

FotoTomas
03-07-2011, 06:37 PM
For many years a S&W Model 38 or 638 was my pocket medicine of choice. I still have the 638 and still pack it on occasion BUT I admit my Kahr PM9 gets the most pocket carry now.

I will NOT however let this little no lock "J" frame go. It should be a law that all have one.

I too had a 940 for short period. Mine was one of those extraction plagued guns and it was swapped out for a 642. The 638 however is my holy grail of J frames.

I might need to get some CTC's for it at some point but it is no longer the primary pocket rocket.

bstrawse
03-08-2011, 06:36 PM
Around the house, I generally carry a S&W J-Frame in a pocket holster from Sideguard Holsters (see http://sideguardholsters.com - this one is the "Rough Out")

Great holster for a great gun.
b

old frank
03-11-2011, 11:13 AM
I carried a 36 and then a 37 for many years. Usually with a Barami Hip grip stuck in my waist at the Appendix area. I have fired thousands of rounds through these little guns and am amazed at what they are capable of.

When pocket carry seemed more appropriate I switched to a 442 and added the CT grips. This rides in a Mika pocket holster.

Usually as a back up, but around the house or a quick trip to the 7-11 for a paper, it is all I got.
I carry a a couple of speed strips also.

I also like the GD Short barrel ammo but I shoot reloads at the range and then finish with a couple of cylinders of the real stuff.
The first time I fired that light 442 with full Defensive ammo I thought it had blown up in my hand!

Sherman A. House DDS
05-02-2011, 03:06 PM
Even so, I would happily buy a steel gun just for practice and shoot mild 9mm FMJ through it most of the time. I may have to avail myself of their services...

I'm with you man. I've thought about getting a Ruger SP101 and having it converted to 9mm moonclips. I figure the SP can handle the pressure.

Wheeler
05-02-2011, 09:04 PM
Surely a 9mm is not as high a pressure round as a .357? Would a .357 gun be able to handle the pressures generated by a 9mm?

Speaking of snubbies, I think the LCR is one of the coolest pocket guns since the derringer was invented.

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt86/Wheeler686/LCRfireball.png

Tamara
05-02-2011, 09:53 PM
I use a 432PD with CT Lasergrips as a BUG...

TGS
05-03-2011, 08:58 AM
Surely a 9mm is not as high a pressure round as a .357? Would a .357 gun be able to handle the pressures generated by a 9mm?



Pressures are the same. 35000psi +/- a little.

The .357 Magnum can acheive higher velocities at the same pressure due to larger case volume. Still, you can make 9mm loads ballistically equivilent to a standard .357 Magnum by raising the pressure.

So yes, a .357 gun should handle the pressures generated by a 9mm.

Al T.
05-11-2011, 08:05 PM
340PD is the EDC gun. I'm at about 2.5k .38 Special through the wheelgun and have 2 (two) rounds of .357 fired. I was shocked at the first /357 and simply wanted to confirm the intense pain with the second.

A well worn nickled M38 is the back up.

HeadHunter
06-17-2011, 03:19 PM
I am fond of my Model 36.
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s91/HeadHunter_album/Snubs/100_0998.jpg

KeeFus
06-18-2011, 07:47 AM
Due to a bad back I find myself, at times, not able to wear a belt holster and carry my Glock 19 or 26. I usually carry a S&W J frame in a pocket holster loaded with 135gr.+P Speer Gold Dot. I practice alot with these snubbies, especially reloads with speed strips and speed loaders, and feel comfortable with them. Obviously the biggest drawback is on board ammo capacity.

Does anyone else carry a snubby and what loads, holsters, etc. do you prefer?

I usually carry a 642-1, but also rotate a 36-7 and 60-7 on occasion.

I carry a 442 in a Galco Ankle Glove or in a Wild Bill's pocket holster. It's loaded with Winchester 110gr Silvertips and I always carry an HKS speedloader with the same ammo.

pancona
07-01-2011, 09:47 PM
I alternate between a S&W Bodyguard .38 (laser) and a Ruger LC9. I carry the S&W in a Desantis Nemisis pocket holster. It is very lightweight and perfect when wearing shorts. I carry the LC9 in a Desantis Tuck-it II IWB holster. I perfer carrying the S&W as I hardly know its there. Also keep a H&K speed loader in other pocket. My preferred ammo is Hornady Critical Defense +p.

shep854
07-09-2011, 08:25 AM
Over the years, I have gone from a Colt Commander and other full-size pistols to an M39 (the REAL Bodyguard :p ) in the right front pocket, loaded with Gold-Dots. This pocket carry is a true year-round carry method, ideal for the South. Also, I can get hold of the gun by simply reaching into my pocket, which does not look threatening to bystanders. As far as draw speed, the most time is taken up by clearing and reaching for the gun. Pocket-carry cuts most of that time out, without "scaring the horses" or telegraphing my actions to a BG.
As with any carry method, pocket-carry requires modification/changes of clothing. I wear loose cargo-style trousers or pleated slacks, and had a coat modified with reach-through slots at the pockets.

shep854
07-09-2011, 08:27 AM
.22 isn't going to help you with the bunnies. You need the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch. (http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/photos/uncategorized/2009/03/23/holygrail189.jpg)

"First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin.
Then, shalt thou count to three, no more, no less.
Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three.
Four shalt thou not count, nor either count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three.
Five is right out.
Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it."

Rex G
07-09-2011, 04:00 PM
Due to a bad back I find myself, at times, not able to wear a belt holster and carry my Glock 19 or 26. I usually carry a S&W J frame in a pocket holster loaded with 135gr.+P Speer Gold Dot. I practice alot with these snubbies, especially reloads with speed strips and speed loaders, and feel comfortable with them. Obviously the biggest drawback is on board ammo capacity.

Does anyone else carry a snubby and what loads, holsters, etc. do you prefer?

I usually carry a 642-1, but also rotate a 36-7 and 60-7 on occasion.

When I last caused my lower back to spasm really badly, I bought one of those Model 340-series Airlights, to pair with my M460, which is a Performance Center nearly-642. I wanted more than just five shots, and had been contemplating an Airlite, already. As far as I can remember, I was using 125-grain standard-pressure Nyclads, back then, but as the Airlite called for jacketed ammo only, to prevent jumping the crimp, I purchased some now-forgotten JHP +P.

If I recall correctly, I wore one snubby in a Galco Executive shoulder rig, and pocketed the other, until I was able to resume carrying a steel 1911. The Airlite did not stay around long, being thinned from the herd somewhere along the way.

In 2002, for a complicated reason I won't get into here, I had to stop carrying my grandfathered 1911 duty pistols at work, and chose to go with the G22, as by then my employer had standardized on certain .40 autos. By that time, my usual back-up snub was a Ruger SP101 with a Jack Weigand "Tame the Beast" package, though not ported. Rather than tote the G22 concealed off the clock, I reverted to revolvers. Soon, I had a second Weigand-customized SP101 snubby. Until late 2007, my usual concealed carry battery was the pair of SP101 snubs, loaded with 125-grain Federal Magnum JHPs.

In late 2007, when I finally bought a really good concealed-carry holster for it, I started carrying my duty P229 concealed fairly
regularly. Late last year, however, I started toting a 3.06" SP101 much of the time, displacing the P229. I have maintained the habit of carrying two revolvers. My usual carry load for the snubs nowadays is Winchester Silvertip Magnums, though encouraging results with the Speer 135-grain Short Barrel load has me considering it, if I can manage to find enough for a decent test-fire session and have enough left for carry.

One of those results with the Speer Short Barrel load was the Magnum version, in a local case, which was a proverbial/mythical one-shot stop. My wife works for the local M.E., and saw the scene and the impressive wound first-hand. Some may feel the Magnum version of this load is just a glorified .38, but if if does the job, decisively, as a Special or Magnum, what's not to like?

I reckon I should mention my rigs. My preference is the Milt Sparks PMK, a belt holster that rides outside the waist band. I also have, but rarely use, a Sparks Summer Special, plus a now-discontinued Eagle Industries IWB rig, which has no reinforcement of the holster mouth, but is a very good way to hide a weapon at the AIWB position. With pants pockets that are deep enough, Kramer pocket rigs are nice, though I try to avoid having my only weapon(s) in pocket(s) for the obvious reasons. I have a Kramer belt scabbard, with a cross draw angle, that I use for AOWB carry, when wearing an appropriate cover garment.

Some find the SP101 too large for their tastes, but they are perfect for my hands, and being just a bit larger than J-frames, behave more like service guns that pocket guns, at least in my hands, with my medium-to-short skinny fingers and thumbs.

TGS
07-09-2011, 05:21 PM
Some find the SP101 too large for their tastes, but they are perfect for my hands, and being just a bit larger than J-frames, behave more like service guns that pocket guns, at least in my hands, with my medium-to-short skinny fingers and thumbs.

I had a 3" SP101. That was one hefty revolver. I'd rather shoot .357's out of it than my S&W 19-4. Unless we're talking slow-fire, I could only ever get minute-of-bad-guy accuracy with it though, whereas I can shoot just as good with my 642 airweight! I found the stock grips to be very comfortable(even with 1700fps 125gr loads) and the perfect size. I even preferred them over the hogue monogrip. The sights left a lot to be desired though, as well as the trigger.

I decided it wasn't a good match for me and got rid of it. I've got a 642 and 19-4 now, but would really like to get an LCR to replace the 642, or a .327 Fed Mag j-frame(Model 632?).

grimel
07-18-2011, 07:14 PM
It's about time to have my 342 refinished. Either hip grips or a pocket holster.

skyugo
07-20-2011, 08:37 PM
i just picked up a 642-1 (no lock) on saturday. I've been carrying it a lot in a smart carry, and a little as a backup gun to my g19 in my left front pocket. very light. surprisingly easy to shoot. i really had low expectations as far as enjoying this gun on the range, but it's kinda fun, and if you mind your front sight it's quite accurate.

knute
10-20-2011, 10:56 PM
just got my 686+ 2.5" today and love it. Fires like a dream. Used to my 44 Redhawk 4'' hand cannon, this little weapon is sweet!

TNWNGR
10-21-2011, 09:44 AM
just got my 686+ 2.5" today and love it. Fires like a dream. Used to my 44 Redhawk 4'' hand cannon, this little weapon is sweet!

Is this going to be an EDC SDG or a fun shooter? Reason for asking is weight/bulk and your possible belt holster set up. FWIW I know it can be done but have seen people go back to smaller revolvers or pistols.:)

knute
10-21-2011, 10:33 AM
Is this going to be an EDC SDG or a fun shooter? Reason for asking is weight/bulk and your possible belt holster set up. FWIW I know it can be done but have seen people go back to smaller revolvers or pistols.:)

I'm not a small guy. Have several diffferent holsters on order. I can hide my .44 pretty well so this as far as weight, bulk & concealment is easy. Have one shoulder holster and two iwp on order. I really don't like the way the J frames and little Rugers feel in my hand, I like the weight, it just feels better.

Tamara
10-21-2011, 12:42 PM
just got my 686+ 2.5" today and love it. Fires like a dream.
re: 2.5" 686...

No problems with the factory rear sight blade and windage screw housing slicing up cover garments? (And your skin, if the holster doesn't have a sweat guard?) I know folks who have either broken the edges with a stone or even gone with the fixed C&S "Extreme Duty" fixed rear as a fix for that.

Also, do you find the shorter ejector rod stroke makes reloads more fumble-prone than the full-length stroke offered by a 3" tube? I mean, it's one thing to have the short stroke on a BUG, because if it's gotten down to tenths on reloading your backup piece, then the winning lotto ticket in your pocket has probably just been struck by lightning anyway, but I can see why speed of reload on a belt gun might be important. I could never understand why Smith standardized on the 2.5" tubes on the adjustable-sighted L-frame snubs, rather than the 3" tubes like those found on fixed-sight K's.

knute
10-21-2011, 02:08 PM
re: 2.5" 686...

No problems with the factory rear sight blade and windage screw housing slicing up cover garments? (And your skin, if the holster doesn't have a sweat guard?) I know folks who have either broken the edges with a stone or even gone with the fixed C&S "Extreme Duty" fixed rear as a fix for that.

Also, do you find the shorter ejector rod stroke makes reloads more fumble-prone than the full-length stroke offered by a 3" tube? I mean, it's one thing to have the short stroke on a BUG, because if it's gotten down to tenths on reloading your backup piece, then the winning lotto ticket in your pocket has probably just been struck by lightning anyway, but I can see why speed of reload on a belt gun might be important. I could never understand why Smith standardized on the 2.5" tubes on the adjustable-sighted L-frame snubs, rather than the 3" tubes like those found on fixed-sight K's.

I guess I just never felt like I'd be in a combat sort of situation. If six or seven shots don't take care of the situation,.......yes the ejector isn't ideal, I like the option of adjustable sight although at close range, 15 yards or closer, center mass is fairly easy. It was just a choice I made, my only other hd is a .44 for the woods. Where I'm at, 4 legged bg are more prevalent than two.

Wheeler
10-21-2011, 04:20 PM
re: 2.5" 686...

No problems with the factory rear sight blade and windage screw housing slicing up cover garments? (And your skin, if the holster doesn't have a sweat guard?) I know folks who have either broken the edges with a stone or even gone with the fixed C&S "Extreme Duty" fixed rear as a fix for that.

Also, do you find the shorter ejector rod stroke makes reloads more fumble-prone than the full-length stroke offered by a 3" tube? I mean, it's one thing to have the short stroke on a BUG, because if it's gotten down to tenths on reloading your backup piece, then the winning lotto ticket in your pocket has probably just been struck by lightning anyway, but I can see why speed of reload on a belt gun might be important. I could never understand why Smith standardized on the 2.5" tubes on the adjustable-sighted L-frame snubs, rather than the 3" tubes like those found on fixed-sight K's.

For balance and the best compromise between weight, sight radius, concealability and the ability to use full house loads without a substantial loss of velocity a 3" 686 is hard to beat. I've shot entire matches with full house .357's (just to prove that I could) with my 686. No way I would have done that with a 3" K frame.

Wheeler

Tamara
10-21-2011, 06:00 PM
For balance and the best compromise between weight, sight radius, concealability and the ability to use full house loads without a substantial loss of velocity a 3" 686 is hard to beat. I've shot entire matches with full house .357's (just to prove that I could) with my 686.

Right! So why are 3" 686's scarce collector's items while 2.5" ones are common as dirt? That never made sense to me...


No way I would have done that with a 3" K frame.

Have you tried? I mean, the difference between the K and L is really minuscule, being nothing more than an ounce or so of extra steel in the frame around where the barrel shank screws in and the crane locks up.

knute
10-21-2011, 07:34 PM
wow, I am not worthy of this forum.....I like my lil buddy, what can I say? ;)

Wheeler
10-21-2011, 07:39 PM
Right! So why are 3" 686's scarce collector's items while 2.5" ones are common as dirt? That never made sense to me...



Have you tried? I mean, the difference between the K and L is really minuscule, being nothing more than an ounce or so of extra steel in the frame around where the barrel shank screws in and the crane locks up.

The short answer is yes.

The difference in this particular case was a 686 CS1 vs. a 65-5 3". The 686 has a full underlug while the 65 does not, in addition the cylinder is larger, plus the extra mass in the frame. I no longer have the 65-5 so I can't weigh them to compare but in my completely unscientific heft test, there was a noticeable difference in weight. Both guns were round butt with Hogue Bantams.

I can't really explain it well but the two guns shot differently. Recoil, muzzle blast, etc. was very different. I personally think the pressure wave from the 65 was stronger. I had more problems with typical task management with the 65 than the 686. Simple things like counting shots, reloads, manual of arms were more difficult. That's the main reason I don't see any real advantage to carrying a snub aka pocket rocket loaded with .357.

I'm right there with you in scratching my head over S&W's decision regarding L frame barrel length. If I ever have the money to do so, I'd like to acquire a 581 round butt and have a 3" barrel installed.

In regards to your question about the sight hanging (posed to another member), I've never had an issue with the CS1, I have never really payed much attention to other 686's so I'm not sure if the rear sight is the same or not. Mine has rounded corners.

Best Regards,
Wheeler

Edit to add:
I just reread my original post. What I should have said was that I could not/did not perform as well. Sorry for the unintentional obfustication.

TNWNGR
10-21-2011, 08:08 PM
I found the 686 to be noticeably muzzle heavy in comparison to my M-19 in 2.5 “ but stayed with the M-19 due to personal preference. I have shot qualification course with full magnum rounds but no IDPA or like matches. With respect to replacement stock’s/grips in 2” or 2.5 “ K frames was they had to be cut for clearance of speed loaders, but more importantly the cut bevel facilitated brass dumps when reloading. Having shot many thousands of .38 Special in 4” duty K frames doing the same with snub nosed K and J frames became much more vigorous with a near perfect vertical position. I once watched a fine gentleman in his late eighties shooting poker chips lined up on a log at 7 and 10 yards with a M-36 2” J frame. He never missed any and then started shooting spent rimfire cartridges, wish he was still around.

DocGKR
10-22-2011, 01:00 AM
As I previously noted (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?716), while I still like J-frames as a BUG to another primary handgun, I am NOT comfortable relying on one as a primary carry weapon.

Tamara
10-22-2011, 05:51 AM
The 686 has a full underlug while the 65 does not, in addition the cylinder is larger, plus the extra mass in the frame.
I can't believe I spaced the underlug. Forget I said anything. :o

I'm right there with you in scratching my head over S&W's decision regarding L frame barrel length. If I ever have the money to do so, I'd like to acquire a 581 round butt and have a 3" barrel installed.
If you find two, I'll take the other one. :)

In regards to your question about the sight hanging (posed to another member), I've never had an issue with the CS1, I have never really payed much attention to other 686's so I'm not sure if the rear sight is the same or not. Mine has rounded corners.
Since the CS-1's were actual duty guns made to be carried for real, it doesn't surprise me. I have a 4" round-butt 19 of the same vintage that's a State Department contract gun; I've never even thought to look at the rear sight blade (as opposed to through it), I should do that next time I'm in the safe. :o

Wheeler
10-22-2011, 01:07 PM
As I previously noted (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?716), while I still like J-frames as a BUG to another primary handgun, I am NOT comfortable relying on one as a primary carry weapon.

Needs must Doc. In my particular situation, at least at work I have to rely on a J frame as my primary, due to concealability issues and the ability to be able to move and place myself in strange and awkward positions. On the occasion that I am in a place where the threat level is perceivably higher, and I don't have the luxury of working in a place with a locked door between me and the outside world, I change my priorities. Then again, my movement requirements are different as well.

Wheeler
10-22-2011, 01:13 PM
I can't believe I spaced the underlug. Forget I said anything. :o

If you find two, I'll take the other one. :)

Since the CS-1's were actual duty guns made to be carried for real, it doesn't surprise me. I have a 4" round-butt 19 of the same vintage that's a State Department contract gun; I've never even thought to look at the rear sight blade (as opposed to through it), I should do that next time I'm in the safe. :o

Tam,

I'd be interested to see what you find on the model 19. I have three ex-cop guns. All have had some sort of anti-sharp edge treatment done to them. Two are adjustable sight models (S&W model 28-2 & 686 CS-1), and the other is a Ruger GPNY (contract built .38 Spl GP-100 for NYPD), which has fixed sights. I'm willing to bet that in the case of any S&W purpose built pistol for law enforcement use, the package is basically the same regardless of frame size or engineering revision.

As a slight tangent, the rounding off of sharp edges is much more pronounced with the Ruger.

Matt C.
10-30-2011, 04:40 PM
Dam I'm jealous!

I carry a 642 at home in a don hume pocket holster with a speed strip when primary is in the safe. The gun shoots awesome but I need to find a 9mm j frame due to my hate for having to stock multiple calibers. I was hoping S&W would bring back the 940 but I may have to start checking gun broker.

Had 642 converted to 9mm and am quite pleased (link below).


http://www.pinnacle-guns.com/revolver.asp

JR1572
10-30-2011, 06:04 PM
Had 642 converted to 9mm and am quite pleased (link below).


http://www.pinnacle-guns.com/revolver.asp

Please tell me more. I've been mulling over deciding to have the same conversion done for some time now.

Thanks,

JR1572

Wheeler
10-30-2011, 06:31 PM
Had 642 converted to 9mm and am quite pleased (link below).


http://www.pinnacle-guns.com/revolver.asp

How's the accuracy shooting the .355 bullets? At what distances have you shot it since the conversion?

Matt C.
10-30-2011, 09:09 PM
Please tell me more. I've been mulling over deciding to have the same conversion done for some time now.

Thanks,

JR1572

Here's the link that got me started
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1980-present/69442-9mm-j-frame-conversion-accuracy-report.html

Matt C.
10-30-2011, 09:17 PM
How's the accuracy shooting the .355 bullets? At what distances have you shot it since the conversion?

I managed to find a 940 barrel but if you check the link I posted for JR1572 it doesn't seem to be an issue.
I've shot to 25 yds with good results.
At about 7 yds with CT grips it's scary fast.

JR1572
10-30-2011, 10:04 PM
Thanks Matt.

JR1572

Wheeler
10-30-2011, 11:00 PM
I managed to find a 940 barrel but if you check the link I posted for JR1572 it doesn't seem to be an issue.
I've shot to 25 yds with good results.
At about 7 yds with CT grips it's scary fast.

I tried some .355 cast bullets through my 686 and a Ruger GPNY. Accuracy was abysmal from both. I had a few left over and shot them through a .357 Model 94 Winchester and was shooting a cloverleaf at 15 yards. I also shot a couple through my .38Spl LCR but wasn't quite sure about the accuracy as the target was pretty chewed up at that time. According to the Brinell hardness the bullets should not have had a galling issue through the stainless guns. I may pick up another 100 of those bullets and try it again. Thanks for the feedback.

Edit to add: The 9mm bullets in question were a 124 gr. RNL

Matt C.
10-31-2011, 01:42 PM
I tried some .355 cast bullets through my 686 and a Ruger GPNY. Accuracy was abysmal from both. I had a few left over and shot them through a .357 Model 94 Winchester and was shooting a cloverleaf at 15 yards. I also shot a couple through my .38Spl LCR but wasn't quite sure about the accuracy as the target was pretty chewed up at that time. According to the Brinell hardness the bullets should not have had a galling issue through the stainless guns. I may pick up another 100 of those bullets and try it again. Thanks for the feedback.

Edit to add: The 9mm bullets in question were a 124 gr. RNL

You got me there.
Maybe someone smarter will chime in.
I'm thinking it has something to do with the cylinder not being being rechambered. (only because my old Ruger convertible was dead on in either caliber/either cylinder) Honestly, I'm just a trigger puller, but I'll put your issue to a friend who's in the know.

Wheeler
10-31-2011, 06:16 PM
You got me there.
Maybe someone smarter will chime in.
I'm thinking it has something to do with the cylinder not being being rechambered. (only because my old Ruger convertible was dead on in either caliber/either cylinder) Honestly, I'm just a trigger puller, but I'll put your issue to a friend who's in the know.

Sort of my problem as well. I reload for production, not much at experimenting. Thanks for the reply. :)

...and now back to your regular scheduled thread.

Tamara
11-05-2011, 08:14 AM
I'd be interested to see what you find on the model 19. I have three ex-cop guns. All have had some sort of anti-sharp edge treatment done to them. Two are adjustable sight models (S&W model 28-2 & 686 CS-1), and the other is a Ruger GPNY (contract built .38 Spl GP-100 for NYPD), which has fixed sights. I'm willing to bet that in the case of any S&W purpose built pistol for law enforcement use, the package is basically the same regardless of frame size or engineering revision.

I spend so much time with the fixed-sight guns that I really never paid attention to the sight blades on the adjustable-sight ones...

The 19-5, which was a State Department gun, (perhaps a contract overrun? It's pretty cherry (http://cosmolineandrust.blogspot.com/2008/01/sunday-smith-29-model-19-5-1988.html)...) from circa 1988 has visibly rounded corners on the rear sight blade.

My 3" 629 (http://cosmolineandrust.blogspot.com/2007/12/sunday-smith-28-model-629-1-1987.html), another carry-oriented piece of about the same vintage, has corners that are dull to the touch, but not as visibly so as the 19.

By contrast, the 1980 Model 15 and '62 3.5" Model 27 have rear sight blades that could draw blood (or slice up a jacket liner) without too much effort.

Wheeler
11-05-2011, 12:09 PM
Very interesting comparisons and as always, awesome pictures. With no empirical data to back it up, I'm going to make the assumption that S&W had a standard treatment for the guns they marketed for LE use.

Lobo_79
11-14-2011, 01:20 PM
Due to a bad back I find myself, at times, not able to wear a belt holster and carry my Glock 19 or 26. I usually carry a S&W J frame in a pocket holster loaded with 135gr.+P Speer Gold Dot. I practice alot with these snubbies, especially reloads with speed strips and speed loaders, and feel comfortable with them. Obviously the biggest drawback is on board ammo capacity.

Does anyone else carry a snubby and what loads, holsters, etc. do you prefer?

I usually carry a 642-1, but also rotate a 36-7 and 60-7 on occasion.

At the risk of being labeled a heretic I don't care for S&W light weight J-frames. They are just too brutal to shoot comfortably, and I like to shoot my carry guns a lot. So I've adopted this Ruger SP101 as one of my carry guns. It fits nicely in an Air Marshal II Kangaroo Carry rig despite the 3" barrel. This gun is a bit of a tradeoff. It's heavy, accurate, and easy to shoot a lot of rounds through it.

If you want to make it even easier to shoot just load it with .38 Spcl +P 130 gr. FMJ PD rounds. There's no shame in using a .38 round in a gun designed for .357. The .38 Spcl has served this role for more years than I can remember. What I like about some of the newer Winchester .38 Spcl PD loads is that they are easily handled in this particular gun should you have to shoot with just one hand while you may be holding a flash light with the other or leading someone to safety. IMHO the .357 Mag round is just too hard to manage shooting with one hand. I practice with it but I prefer the lighter load.
http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz154/Lobo_79/Ruger_SP101/L1000887.jpg

Wheeler
11-14-2011, 01:43 PM
At the risk of being labeled a heretic I don't care for S&W light weight J-frames. They are just too brutal to shoot comfortably, and I like to shoot my carry guns a lot. So I've adopted this Ruger SP101 as one of my carry guns. It fits nicely in an Air Marshal II Kangaroo Carry rig despite the 3" barrel. This gun is a bit of a tradeoff. It's heavy, accurate, and easy to shoot a lot of rounds through it.

If you want to make it even easier to shoot just load it with .38 Spcl +P 130 gr. FMJ PD rounds. There's no shame in using a .38 round in a gun designed for .357. The .38 Spcl has served this role for more years than I can remember. What I like about some of the newer Winchester .38 Spcl PD loads is that they are easily handled in this particular gun should you have to shoot with just one hand while you may be holding a flash light with the other or leading someone to safety. IMHO the .357 Mag round is just too hard to manage shooting with one hand. I practice with it but I prefer the lighter load.
http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz154/Lobo_79/Ruger_SP101/L1000887.jpg

If carrying an SP101, why not a snub K frame S&W or a Security or Speed Six? I'm not knocking your choice, if it's what you're comfortable and proficient with, then obviously that's the proper pistol. I'm curious more than anything.

Good looking grip panels!

Lobo_79
11-14-2011, 06:58 PM
If carrying an SP101, why not a snub K frame S&W or a Security or Speed Six? I'm not knocking your choice, if it's what you're comfortable and proficient with, then obviously that's the proper pistol. I'm curious more than anything.

Good looking grip panels!

I had a vintage Security Six with a 2.75" barrel. Its advantage over the SP101 was the extra round. Its disadvantage was the DA trigger pull and its weight. I think a recent critic was right: the Security Six is really a single action revolver capable of being fired double action. The comment was meant in jest but the SP101's trigger pull is much better than the SS. And, the OP I think was concerned about weight. So between weight and trigger pull...I left off my SS.

If the weather is cold enough(read: more concealable) I sometimes carry my N-Frame Performance Center Model 627. Certainly not easily carried concealed but it is singularly the most accurate handgun I've ever owned. I mention this because I am equally enamored with both S&W and Ruger...LOL.

Matt C.
11-17-2011, 09:16 AM
I had a vintage Security Six with a 2.75" barrel. Its advantage over the SP101 was the extra round. Its disadvantage was the DA trigger pull and its weight. I think a recent critic was right: the Security Six is really a single action revolver capable of being fired double action. The comment was meant in jest but the SP101's trigger pull is much better than the SS. And, the OP I think was concerned about weight. So between weight and trigger pull...I left off my SS.

If the weather is cold enough(read: more concealable) I sometimes carry my N-Frame Performance Center Model 627. Certainly not easily carried concealed but it is singularly the most accurate handgun I've ever owned. I mention this because I am equally enamored with both S&W and Ruger...LOL.

Your SP101 is a hell of a good weapon. ( I carried one in 9mm).
The issue with the Speed/Security /Service/Service Six issue can be rectified by a competent smith.
Hamilton Bowen did a DAO conversion (breaks like glass) for a friend, and is currently doing a Speed Six project of mine. (will post up when complete)

Frank R
01-31-2012, 12:12 AM
LCR 38+P in a Galco OWB. Carry ammo is Cor-Bon DPX 110gr+P Barnes.

kle
02-01-2012, 11:54 AM
My S&W 442 rides in a hand-made Kydex IWB holster at about 4:00. Reloads come from speed-strips or HKS speedloaders. I load all 6 holes in the speed-strips, even though my gun can only hold 5, just in case I fumble the load of a round from the speedstrip (one in reserve). I carry Federal 158gr LSWCHP .38+P - a little snappy to shoot, but I'm not worried about them getting the job done.

TGS
02-01-2012, 01:11 PM
I carry Federal 158gr LSWCHP .38+P - a little snappy to shoot, but I'm not worried about them getting the job done.

I would consider the Remington or Buffalo Bore if you want to carry the FBI load. The Federal lead is a bit hard for expansion at snub velocities, whereas Remington's lead is very soft and will expand out of snubs (BB uses Remington lead, IIRC).

Up1911Fan
02-01-2012, 05:57 PM
There's a Ruger LCR with an XS front sight and CTC Lasergrips in a TUFF pocket holster in my left front pocket as I type this. But then again my G19 is also on my right hip. Mine is loaded with the 130gr +p PDX1 load. Gonna do some testing with it and the Speer short barrel load along with Critical Defense.

Jeff22
02-06-2012, 02:40 AM
When I started as a cop (1981) most agencies around here carried S&W Revolvers, mostly K frames. Among the more knowledgable shooters, the 3 inch Chief's Special was a very popular off duty & backup gun. I bought the first one I ever fired. (A friend made me a deal. I made the last payment on the day President Reagan was shot).

At that time the County Traffic Police was separate from the Sheriff's Department (they merged in January of 1982). Among the avid shooters there was one group that carried S&W Auto pistols. (Many of them carried Walther PP or PPK or PPK/S pistols as hideout guns); another group that carried Colt Pythons (with Detective Specials as hide-out guns) and a final group that preferred the Smith & Wesson revolvers, mostly 5 inch Model 27s. And ALL those guys had 3 inch Chief Specials for hideout guns.

I always thought the 3 inch J frames balanced better and looked cooler . . .

I currently own an M36 with the 3 inch tapered barrel, an M36 with the 3 inch heavy barrel, an M60 stainless with the 3 inch heavy barrel, and a (now-discontinued)
M650 3 inch heavy barrel in .22LR, that I use as a "practice gun" for the other two.

Originally, for service ammo I used the S&W Nyclad 125 grn "Chief's Special" load, later made by Federal .

Then I switched to the WW 158 grn Lead SWC HP +P and then to the Federal 129 grn Hydro-Shock HP. I was about to switch to the Speer 135 grn +P HP, but then the PD made a change in policy and mandated the use of Hornady Critical Defense FXT hollowpoints for any secondary or concealment guns, and so I’m using the 110 grain hollowpoints.

I usually carry the guns in a traditional leather IWB holster with a thumb break retainer, and reloads are Bianchi speed strips or HXS speedloaders carried in a Safariland 371 split six speedloader carrier.

Rappahannock
02-06-2012, 09:08 AM
I have been considering a 9mm conversion of a J frame revolver. I have a stainless steel J frame cylinder sitting around - is it the case I could have it converted and put it in any similar Smith & Wesson revolver? Or are these cylinders specific to the individual model?

As to pocket holsters, I highly recommend the ones made by Simply Rugged. They are reasonably priced and, well, rugged. More importantly, there is just enough thin leather to break up the outline of the gun without adding a lot of bulk to it. Most of the pocket holsters I have tried are so heavily padded that it is like putting another wallet in your front pocket.

Matt C.
02-06-2012, 01:28 PM
I have been considering a 9mm conversion of a J frame revolver. I have a stainless steel J frame cylinder sitting around - is it the case I could have it converted and put it in any similar Smith & Wesson revolver? Or are these cylinders specific to the individual model?

As to pocket holsters, I highly recommend the ones made by Simply Rugged. They are reasonably priced and, well, rugged. More importantly, there is just enough thin leather to break up the outline of the gun without adding a lot of bulk to it. Most of the pocket holsters I have tried are so heavily padded that it is like putting another wallet in your front pocket.

To the best of my knowledge all cylinders for the magnum framed J frames are interchangeable.

SteveK
02-06-2012, 03:02 PM
Smith 442 in a Desantis Nemisis pocket holster, either in a pocket or aiwb (the holster material is "grabby" and stays put). Ammo is any 125 +p flavor that is available (re: free).

LHS
02-10-2012, 01:34 PM
642 w/action job by Nelson Ford (the man really knows how to make a J-frame trigger better) and LG405 grips (IMHO, a must-have for the J-frame. Even without the laser, they make shooting it a lot more comfortable, which means you will practice more). Makes a great BUG.

Tamara
02-13-2012, 09:03 AM
I always thought the 3 inch J frames balanced better and looked cooler . . .

Oh, me too! But...

For my use, a 3" steel J-frame is neither fish nor fowl. It's just a tiny bit too long and heavy for me to easily carry it in the pocket or in an ankle rig, and if I'm going to carry in a belt holster, I'm just going to step up to the 3" K-frame.

HeadHunter
02-13-2012, 07:48 PM
I shot my 317 today. 100 rounds of CCI AR Tactical ammo. That is some good stuff. 100 rounds with no misfires. The gun has a lightened mainspring and bobbed hammer so can be a little finicky about ammo.

Tamara
02-13-2012, 10:02 PM
I shot my 317 today. 100 rounds of CCI AR Tactical ammo. That is some good stuff. 100 rounds with no misfires. The gun has a lightened mainspring and bobbed hammer so can be a little finicky about ammo.

I'll look into that. I ran a bunch of the Winchester M-22 stuff through my 22/45 on my last range trip and had four or five FTF's out of 100ish rounds. :(

Chuck Haggard
02-13-2012, 11:45 PM
Oh, me too! But...

For my use, a 3" steel J-frame is neither fish nor fowl. It's just a tiny bit too long and heavy for me to easily carry it in the pocket or in an ankle rig, and if I'm going to carry in a belt holster, I'm just going to step up to the 3" K-frame.


I concur.

I had a 3" 36 for awhile, didn't carry any better than a 3" 65 and certainly did not shoot as well. Sold that gun when I had a chance.

Chuck Haggard
02-13-2012, 11:46 PM
I shot my 317 today. 100 rounds of CCI AR Tactical ammo. That is some good stuff. 100 rounds with no misfires. The gun has a lightened mainspring and bobbed hammer so can be a little finicky about ammo.

How does that ammo work from the OMG, Taurus, or the other semi-autos you work with?

HeadHunter
02-14-2012, 09:59 AM
I'll look into that. I ran a bunch of the Winchester M-22 stuff through my 22/45 on my last range trip and had four or five FTF's out of 100ish rounds. :(

I tried the M-22 and had the same results as you. Maybe my Bersa will like it but the 317 and Berettas don't.

HeadHunter
02-14-2012, 10:01 AM
How does that ammo work from the OMG, Taurus, or the other semi-autos you work with?

It works flawlessly in the OMG. About 150 yesterday through 2 Berettas without a hitch. I haven't tried it in any of the others yet.

Tamara
02-15-2012, 12:31 PM
I concur.

I had a 3" 36 for awhile, didn't carry any better than a 3" 65 and certainly did not shoot as well. Sold that gun when I had a chance.

Yup, I '86ed my Liebenberg-era PC640 for the same reason. I wasn't going to carry it, and I don't collect Smiths made of soulless steel anymore. ;)