Atlanta PD orders 2,300 Gen 4 Glock 22 Pistols.

[JBP55]

Mods, If this does not belong here please move or delete.


GLOCK Secures Atlanta Police Department as Newest Law Enforcement Customer
Smyrna, GA — July 17, 2013 —

Department switch to GLOCK marks first pistol manufacturer change in approximately 70 years

Today GLOCK, Inc. announced that the Atlanta Police Department (APD) ordered and started receiving 2,300 GLOCK 22 Generation 4 pistols. The APD is transitioning away from a Mass.-based polymer-framed pistol manufacturer with whom they have had a long-standing relationship, dating back to the 1940s.

The APD’s decision to break their previous 70-plus year pistol relationship and transition to GLOCK pistols is particularly important, based on its conviction that GLOCK is the best pistol for its officers to carry. The APD orchestrated a full year of extensive testing to ultimately choose the GLOCK pistols due to what they considered best-in-class product reliability. By choosing GLOCK, the APD is helping support the local economy and the approximately 400 metro Atlanta residents that are employed by GLOCK.

"We believe GLOCK offers a trusted, superior firearm for our officers," said Atlanta Police Chief George N. Turner. "They are industry leaders, and with headquarters here in Cobb County, we’re expecting superb customer service. Making sure our officers are provided the best equipment possible is in keeping with our mission of creating a safer Atlanta by reducing crime, ensuring the safety of our citizens and building trust in partnership with our communities."

The department-wide transition to GLOCK from the Mass.-based pistol manufacturer has already begun and will continue through April of 2014. The APD Special Weapons and Tactics (SWAT) team has adopted the GLOCK 21 Generation 4 pistol, due to mission-specific requirements for the .45 ACP.

"The long-anticipated transition of APD into GLOCK pistols is a significant win for GLOCK and the APD," shared Josh Dorsey, GLOCK Vice President. "We are very excited to equip our local agency with GLOCK pistols, and anticipate a growing relationship in the future."

GLOCK is the preferred firearm of law enforcement across the United States, with approximately 65 percent of agencies using GLOCK pistols. GLOCK contributes millions of dollars annually to non-profit organizations that support law enforcement and military personnel.

[jlw]

The APD was issuing the 5903 when I went through armorer's school there for S&W. They were in the process of switching to the 4003. They had some frame cracking issues with them, and jumped to the M&P once it hit the market.

They did do a head to head test before adopting the M&P. Glock sent pistols straight from Smyrna Police Distributors, and S&W brought pistols that had been tuned in the custom shop. One of the Glocks lost a retaining ring from its recoil spring during the test.

[Dave Williams]

The APD Special Weapons and Tactics (SWAT) team has adopted the GLOCK 21 Generation 4 pistol, due to mission-specific requirements for the .45 ACP.

Interesting. Cleveland PD SWAT/Cleveland Hts PD SWAT also use .45s while the rest of the agency uses 9mm/40 respectively.

I wonder how many other Agencies nationwide follow this practice.

[TCinVA]

Interesting. Cleveland PD SWAT/Cleveland Hts PD SWAT also use .45s while the rest of the agency uses 9mm/40 respectively.

I wonder how many other Agencies nationwide follow this practice.

Cool guy syndrome happens in lots of places. The "elite" ones have to carry a different sidearm, you see. Else how will people know you're one of the cool guys?

Plus, .45 ACP kills bad guys deader than those puny .40 S&W pistols.

While there may be a specific mission requirement for a .45 ACP handgun, or perhaps the department's tac team is sitting on hundreds of thousands of rounds of .45 ACP practice ammo, odds are pretty strong that there's no real reason for it.

[WDW]

I just took the Gen 4 .40 plunge. Mostly because .40 is more available & actually cheaper in my area. Picked up (2) Gen 4 23's. An OD green to practice with & a black one to carry. Also, I felt the Gen 4 .40's were less likely to have the issues the 9mm's have. Guess we'll see....ejection is strong & consistent to my 4 o'clock so far. Only fired 100rds or so though.

[ToddG]

Interesting. Cleveland PD SWAT/Cleveland Hts PD SWAT also use .45s while the rest of the agency uses 9mm/40 respectively.

I wonder how many other Agencies nationwide follow this practice.

Too many. Think about the signal it sends to other officers in the department. You're a lowly patrol officer who, if involved in an OIS, will almost certainly need to rely on your pistol. But you're given a cheaper, less powerful pistol than the tac team guys (the ones who, if involved in an OIS, will almost certainly have a long guns in their hands and be surrounded by similarly armed teammates).

I'd be genuinely interested to hear what specific "mission" the APD SWAT team has that requires a .45 instead of a .40 for its pistols.

[LittleLebowski]

Too many. Think about the signal it sends to other officers in the department. You're a lowly patrol officer who, if involved in an OIS, will almost certainly need to rely on your pistol. But you're given a cheaper, less powerful pistol than the tac team guys (the ones who, if involved in an OIS, will almost certainly have a long guns in their hands and be surrounded by similarly armed teammates).

I'd be genuinely interested to hear what specific "mission" the APD SWAT team has that requires a .45 instead of a .40 for its pistols.

I can name a department that issues 1911s only to higher ranking officers. It's a status symbol.

[Tamara]

Cool guy syndrome happens in lots of places. The "elite" ones have to carry a different sidearm, you see. Else how will people know you're one of the cool guys?

A rep we had back when I was working at the gun store in Cumming, GA commented that, due to a previous employer, he'd done some training with APD SWAT. To quote him as close to verbatim as I can, some fifteen years later "If I was being held hostage in a bank and heard that Atlanta SWAT was deploying outside, I'd make a play for one of the hostage-taker's guns; my chances couldn't be any worse."

I hope they're better now. :eek:

(Rumor of the same vintage: S&W offered Smyrna free guns. Because.)

[JHC]

I just took the Gen 4 .40 plunge. Mostly because .40 is more available & actually cheaper in my area. Picked up (2) Gen 4 23's. An OD green to practice with & a black one to carry. Also, I felt the Gen 4 .40's were less likely to have the issues the 9mm's have. Guess we'll see....ejection is strong & consistent to my 4 o'clock so far. Only fired 100rds or so though.

I added one for the same reason a little while back. Kept me shooting something. But boy, was my first impression from "sample shooting" a Gen 4 .40 a few years earlier mistaken. It handles well enough but I ain't man enough to run it like a 9mm that's for sure. Just ain't got the grip. Worthwhile pistol, don't get me wrong. I'm not dissing your choice. I still think its good I finally have one .40 for ammo options and I think I'll carry it hunting too. Just mentioning that the fast shooting challenge of it surprised me.

[TCinVA]

Too many. Think about the signal it sends to other officers in the department. You're a lowly patrol officer who, if involved in an OIS, will almost certainly need to rely on your pistol. But you're given a cheaper, less powerful pistol than the tac team guys (the ones who, if involved in an OIS, will almost certainly have a long guns in their hands and be surrounded by similarly armed teammates).

I'd be genuinely interested to hear what specific "mission" the APD SWAT team has that requires a .45 instead of a .40 for its pistols.

An alternate theory struck me last night:

If a department has been having trouble with their standard issue sidearms the tac team might have enough juice to get different sidearms that don't have those problems.

The Gen4 .40's haven't been without problem in issue numbers, unfortunately...

[ToddG]

If a department has been having trouble with their standard issue sidearms the tac team might have enough juice to get different sidearms that don't have those problems.

Along parallel lines, gun company LE reps will often try to get a department's tactical team to switch from another brand of gun. The idea is that if (a) the SWAT guys like your gun and (b) the patrol guns start having any kind of issue whatsoever, the tactical team's experience with your company and its products gives you a big leg up. Add to this the fact that in many small- and medium-sized agencies the SWAT guys often play a role as firearms instructors and it gives you a lot of influence the next time the agency wants new guns.

[JBP55]

In this area where most LEA's issue the G22 many of the SWAT Teams are issued the G35. In Louisiana the G17 is optional in many LEA's that issue the G22.
Many in this Parish use the G22 but one Agency uses the G19, another uses the G34 and another issues choice of G34/G35.

[LSP972]

Interesting. Cleveland PD SWAT/Cleveland Hts PD SWAT also use .45s while the rest of the agency uses 9mm/40 respectively.

I wonder how many other Agencies nationwide follow this practice.

Some (two in my area alone) are going the other way with this; general issue for the masses is .40, while the "cool kids" are reverting to 9mm.

In both instances, that decision was made after quite a bit of soul-searching and observation of training results.

Some teams are more interested in results than image.

.

[Plan]

If a tac team decided on utilizing a "special" platform, but one with a reputation for durability and long service life (P30, HK45, USP), it might make sense if the team is full-time or has a very rigorous, high round count training schedule. The chances of a SWAT gun going down due to parts failure is potentially higher if they are putting 5,000 or more through it a year versus the typical 150 give or take of a patrol pistol. I don't think the 1911 and G21 are necessarily shining examples of durability and reliability though, and demonstrate the "cool guy" phenomenon.

[ToddG]

Some (two in my area alone) are going the other way with this; general issue for the masses is .40, while the "cool kids" are reverting to 9mm.

I hereby declare this AWESOME.

[LSP972]

. The idea is that if (a) the SWAT guys like your gun and (b) the patrol guns start having any kind of issue whatsoever, the tactical team's experience with your company and its products gives you a big leg up. .

This is exactly what occurred with us. Sigs (P220 & P228) became standard issue in 1996. In 1998, SWAT got G35s. In 2007, Glock was successful in convincing management to switch to the G22 for general issue, with the G17 as an optional issue piece. Mind you, there were no problems with the Sigs.

Personally, when I had to get off SWAT due to health issues, turning in that G35 was the only part of the process I didn't regret. I really disliked that pistol.

The G35s went away sometime in 2008/2009, replaced with general-issue G22s. I never got a straight answer as to why.

But now, a lot of the SWAT guys are drawing issue G17s or purchasing G34s for that role. Go figure...

.

[karmapolice]

I can tell you this is political all the way. The only benefit from switching is that Officer will get a standard trigger in the glock and no mag disconnect. Current M&P's have a 10+ pound trigger, magazine disconnect, and shortened mag release. IF you don't believe me, I know the whole process that led up to this and who wrote the bid etc.

[JHC]

I can tell you this is political all the way. The only benefit from switching is that Officer will get a standard trigger in the glock and no mag disconnect. Current M&P's have a 10+ pound trigger, magazine disconnect, and shortened mag release. IF you don't believe me, I know the whole process that led up to this and who wrote the bid etc.

Without name dropping, what did that look like? Pistol trials? SWAT influence? Country club pals?

[LSP972]

I can tell you this is political all the way.

It usually is.

Perhaps those in charge tired of their S&W swag and wanted some new Grock swag...;)

.

[DocGKR]

"Current M&P's have a 10+ pound trigger, magazine disconnect, and shortened mag release. "

All of which can be rectified in less than 10 min by a qualified armorer...

If those were the only problems and the M&P40's were not shot out, then the switch seems like a waste of scarce tax payer funds.

[ST911]

Admins getting 1911s seems like a demotion. I'd regard it much like turning in my 2012 Tahoe for a retired 1997 CVPI that was handed over to detox to be the transport vomit comet. :D (C'mon, you know they're probably not buying duty grade 1911s...)

Different gear = more speshuler people, though. Seen too often.

The 9mm trend is interesting. There are the thinkers and shooters that are swapping based on intelligent assessment. Then there are the cool kids being speshul, or following the latest interweb trend on their favorite gun forum. In a strange alignment of the stars, both are fine. Everyone wins this time.

Thinkers start the process, cool kids usually provide the momentum.

[ToddG]

There are a couple of big high-profile federal LE agencies that are considering a move to 9mm from current .40 or 357 SIG guns.

Qual scores improve.
Service life improves.
Ammo budget impact improves.

It's a bureaucrat's dream and it makes sense! Probably never happen...

[JHC]

There are a couple of big high-profile federal LE agencies that are considering a move to 9mm from current .40 or 357 SIG guns.

Qual scores improve.
Service life improves.
Ammo budget impact improves.

It's a bureaucrat's dream and it makes sense! Probably never happen...

From similar posts around the web to that effect going back to Winter or maybe even last Fall I've wondered when that shoe was ever going to drop!

[karmapolice]

All of which can be rectified in less than 10 min by a qualified armorer...

If those were the only problems and the M&P40's were not shot out, then the switch seems like a waste of scarce tax payer funds.

Oh I agree, those weren't issues used for the switch. The Department requested the M&P's like that from the go. Plus this switch did not cost the tax payers anything. The only benefit of going to the glocks for Officers is the standard trigger (APD has always run heavier triggers). There were some SWAT guys that wanted GLocks but SWAT is an inbreed of the same guys for like the past 20 plus years (there is a photo of them with Clinton (slick willy) and now only three faces on the team were not in that picture). I didn't even know about SWAT getting 45, that was again a decision by someone who doesn't need to be making decisions. Also the big factor is Glock came to the department like they did in the past and said he we will give you Glocks, someone this time just said yes unlike the past times. It went through without a bid but then the City Council law department said that there had to be a bid, so the person who wrote the bid (who is a firearms instructor with like 6 months of street time in a low crime nice area, as is standard with the higher up/instructors), wrote it so only Glock could fulfill it.

[Tamara]

...SWAT is an inbreed of the same guys for like the past 20 plus years (there is a photo of them with Clinton (slick willy) and now only three faces on the team were not in that picture).

In light of my earlier post, that doesn't fill me with the happies. :(

[KeeFus]

... so the person who wrote the bid (who is a firearms instructor with like 6 months of street time in a low crime nice area, as is standard with the higher up/instructors), ...

Say it ain't so! :rolleyes:

Good to see that things don't change from State to State, and that paper pushers exist everywhere for their own glory.

[JHC]

How does "street time" equate to firearms knowledge and proficiency vis a vis pistol selection between well established options?

[karmapolice]

It helps when you actually know how to police, and keep up with the changes on the street. Also this same guy teaches people how to clear buildings and other classes that he has only done in training and never on the street. I am sorry but if you spent 6 months on the street and have never cleared a building as patrol officer in the middle of the night during a hot foot pursuit or an area where some dude just lit off a magazine or two in your general direction, you probably should not being teach others how to do it. This particular guy is stuck in the 90's and believes in tritium front sight post on rifles and that red dots are unreliable. I am not saying there couldn't be a guy who had little to no street time but knows a lot about guns but thats rare as a unicorn, especially in the bigger departments as it is a commonality to have people that move up that may of not even ever answered a 911 call in their career yet they are making decision on how patrol does their job or what they do it with. As another example the Sergeant over the range isn't even a certified POST instructor let alone a certified firearms instructor, and also they have people who have badges and guns that sit a desk and print off photo id's all day and that is their only function. There is a lot of people who get of the street so they dont have to police but you bet your ass they work a lot of extra jobs.

[JHC]

It helps when you actually know how to police, and keep up with the changes on the street. Also this same guy teaches people how to clear buildings and other classes that he has only done in training and never on the street. I am sorry but if you spent 6 months on the street and have never cleared a building as patrol officer in the middle of the night during a hot foot pursuit or an area where some dude just lit off a magazine or two in your general direction, you probably should not being teach others how to do it. This particular guy is stuck in the 90's and believes in tritium front sight post on rifles and that red dots are unreliable. I am not saying there couldn't be a guy who had little to no street time but knows a lot about guns but thats rare as a unicorn, especially in the bigger departments as it is a commonality to have people that move up that may of not even ever answered a 911 call in their career yet they are making decision on how patrol does their job or what they do it with. As another example the Sergeant over the range isn't even a certified POST instructor let alone a certified firearms instructor, and also they have people who have badges and guns that sit a desk and print off photo id's all day and that is their only function. There is a lot of people who get of the street so they dont have to police but you bet your ass they work a lot of extra jobs.

Makes sense of course. And I just meant about service pistol purchasing vs training but I'm tracking. Thx

[jlw]

First, I know karmapolice personally and can vouch for the fact that he speaks with complete credibility in this issue; so, now its just a question of whether or not my vouching has any credibility. :cool:

I spoke with a member of the APD today who said that there were issues with S&W's customer service in dealing with some issues and that things added up to a point that the powers that be decided to make the switch. I have personally had issues with the LE sales rep for GA to the point that it has cost a local distributor sales. Our SRT voted to dump their Kimber 1911s in favor of the M&P45, but the rep has completely dropped the ball on this. This is the same rep that led a GA Sheriff to send out a letter to all of the state's Sheriffs' Offices concerning issues with the service they were receiving. A prominent member of this forum has direct knowledge of the situation.

---
As for "special" units getting "special" guns, it is my personal belief that the imperial "we" delves too much into special units to the point that it takes away resources from the backbone: Patrol. It leads to "that's not my job" mentality for answering calls and the basic functions of an LE agency. Our SRT, as mentioned above, has the option to carry issued Kimber 1911s (mostly TLE/RL II models with a few Tactical HD II models). Everyone else is issued a Glock 22 or 23 depending upon the deputy's choice and inventory. The second firearms policy that I wrote upon being appointed my position (the first was to allow leverguns as patrol rifles) was that any personnel who want to carry a 1911 may do so. Sights and grips can be changed but any internal mods must be specifically approved.

The day I rearranged all of the offices in the Patrol building is on point and probably a more interesting anecdote, but I probably shouldn't tell it.

[TCinVA]

Wouldn't be the first time a crappy rep screwed a company's relations with a department or geographical area.

[JHC]

First, I know karmapolice personally and can vouch for the fact that he speaks with complete credibility in this issue; so, now its just a question of whether or not my vouching has any credibility. :cool:

I spoke with a member of the APD today who said that there were issues with S&W's customer service in dealing with some issues and that things added up to a point that the powers that be decided to make the switch. I have personally had issues with the LE sales rep for GA to the point that it has cost a local distributor sales. Our SRT voted to dump their Kimber 1911s in favor of the M&P45, but the rep has completely dropped the ball on this. This is the same rep that led a GA Sheriff to send out a letter to all of the state's Sheriffs' Offices concerning issues with the service they were receiving. A prominent member of this forum has direct knowledge of the situation.

---
As for "special" units getting "special" guns, it is my personal belief that the imperial "we" delves too much into special units to the point that it takes away resources from the backbone: Patrol. It leads to "that's not my job" mentality for answering calls and the basic functions of an LE agency. Our SRT, as mentioned above, has the option to carry issued Kimber 1911s (mostly TLE/RL II models with a few Tactical HD II models). Everyone else is issued a Glock 22 or 23 depending upon the deputy's choice and inventory. The second firearms policy that I wrote upon being appointed my position (the first was to allow leverguns as patrol rifles) was that any personnel who want to carry a 1911 may do so. Sights and grips can be changed but any internal mods must be specifically approved.

The day I rearranged all of the offices in the Patrol building is on point and probably a more interesting anecdote, but I probably shouldn't tell it.

That's a lot of detail. My impression of purely "political" was tending to track towards slimy cronyism or worse. Poor CS from the industry CS leader (by most accounts anyway). The front line contact with the customer can always make ya or break ya.

[GJM]

I am late to this thread, but just came in from shooting my G22 with KKM barrel and Double Tap 200 hard cast and Speer 180 TMJ. I shoot this combo for a reason -- critters here in Alaska, but I despise .40 and especially how it feels in a Glock. Where a 17 is a joy to shoot, a 22 is just plain work.

I bet Atlanta could issue the G17 to regular and SWAT folks, fire all the range staff, and have better qualification results with the 9 without any training, than with the .40 and a bunch of training.

[jlw]

I am late to this thread, but just came in from shooting my G22 with KKM barrel and Double Tap 200 hard cast and Speer 180 TMJ. I shoot this combo for a reason -- critters here in Alaska, but I despise .40 and especially how it feels in a Glock. Where a 17 is a joy to shoot, a 22 is just plain work.

I bet Atlanta could issue the G17 to regular and SWAT folks, fire all the range staff, and have better qualification results with the 9 without any training, than with the .40 and a bunch of training.

As I related in my first post in this thread, they were previously in 9mm and then made the change to the .40SW. I saw one of their SWAT guys today, and he was carrying a Glock, but it wasn't a G21.

Coincidentally, the city of Marietta (in a neighboring county to Atlants/Fulton County) is going from Gen3 G22s to Gen4 G22s. They considered a switch to 9mm, but in their testing, there was no improvement to speak of in their marginal shooters; so, they decided not to have to buy all new ammo.

[JBP55]

I recently saw a marginal shooter who after 3 mo. trying out for the La. POST Course with a G35 finally shot a four course average 107 out of a possible 120. POST requires 96 but the FTU the Agency he was joining requires a minimum of 102 to qualify. The same day after qualifying with the G35 he switched to a G34 and on the first try he shot a qualifying score of 116 and was able to repeat. I have seen quite a few marginal shooters improve their scores when going from a .40 Glock to a 9mm Glock. This Agency issues choice of G34/G35.

[jlw]

I am truly at heart a Glock 9mm guy. I am also affiliated with a company that produces trigger kits for Glock pistols. All that being said, I shoot an M&P45 better than any other duty/carry pistol.

[NickA]

That's a lot of detail. My impression of purely "political" was tending to track towards slimy cronyism or worse. Poor CS from the industry CS leader (by most accounts anyway). The front line contact with the customer can always make ya or break ya.

When a customer is saying "take my money" and you still kitten it up, you're doing it wrong IMO. Interestingly SAPD just went the other way, Glock to M&P. I talked to an officer a few weeks ago but he didn't know much about it, other than he seemed to like the M&P fine and complained about lack of training ammo at their range.


I recently saw a marginal shooter who after 3 mo. trying out for the La. POST Course with a G35 finally shot a four course average 107 out of a possible 120. POST requires 96 but the FTU the Agency he was joining requires a minimum of 102 to qualify. The same day after qualifying with the G35 he switched to a G34 and on the first try he shot a qualifying score of 116 and was able to repeat. I have seen quite a few marginal shooters improve their scores when going from a .40 Glock to a 9mm Glock. This Agency issues choice of G34/G35.

Out of curiosity, do agencies that issue the G34/35 leave them as is or go to a standard connector and mag release?

[ST911]

Coincidentally, the city of Marietta (in a neighboring county to Atlants/Fulton County) is going from Gen3 G22s to Gen4 G22s. They considered a switch to 9mm, but in their testing, there was no improvement to speak of in their marginal shooters; so, they decided not to have to buy all new ammo.


I recently saw a marginal shooter who after 3 mo. trying out for the La. POST Course with a G35 finally shot a four course average 107 out of a possible 120. POST requires 96 but the FTU the Agency he was joining requires a minimum of 102 to qualify. The same day after qualifying with the G35 he switched to a G34 and on the first try he shot a qualifying score of 116 and was able to repeat. I have seen quite a few marginal shooters improve their scores when going from a .40 Glock to a 9mm Glock. This Agency issues choice of G34/G35.

When the comparison is 9 vs 40, officers that don't perform better with the former than the latter within the same systems are a very small exception. Curious result from Marietta.

[jlw]

I just spoke to some people on the S&W side of this. Their take is that someone within the APD wants to switch due to a personal relationship between an APD officer and one of Glock's VPs.

[JBP55]

When a customer is saying "take my money" and you still kitten it up, you're doing it wrong IMO. Interestingly SAPD just went the other way, Glock to M&P. I talked to an officer a few weeks ago but he didn't know much about it, other than he seemed to like the M&P fine and complained about lack of training ammo at their range.



Out of curiosity, do agencies that issue the G34/35 leave them as is or go to a standard connector and mag release?


The trigger pull on a new Glock when measured from the middle of the trigger is normally 6#'s plus and the Blue Label Glocks do not come with a minus connector unless requested when ordering.
The FTU will change out the extended parts if they become a problem but I am not aware of any issues and they have been in service for about 8 years. No holster issues and no shooting issues.

[JBP55]

When the comparison is 9 vs 40, officers that don't perform better with the former than the latter within the same systems are a very small exception. Curious result from Marietta.


I Concur.

[JHC]

I just spoke to some people on the S&W side of this. Their take is that someone within the APD wants to switch due to a personal relationship between an APD officer and one of Glock's VPs.

There we go! That's more like it. This is more in keeping with the tradition of the firearms community. Cronyism or the most sour of sour grapes. With the local LE rep keeping a low profile for awhile. LOL Awesome.

[NickA]

The trigger pull on a new Glock when measured from the middle of the trigger is normally 6#'s plus and the Blue Label Glocks do not come with a minus connector unless requested when ordering.
The FTU will change out the extended parts if they become a problem but I am not aware of any issues and they have been in service for about 8 years. No holster issues and no shooting issues.

Thanks. Kind of a dumb question now that I think about it :o

[GJM]

I have a few reactions:

1) As to what APD picks, who cares -- about as interesting as whether they select coke or pepsi for the soda machines in their facilities.

2) Police department selection processes seem as unbiased as a product liability damage award by a local jury against an out of state company in south (fill in your favorite state). Does anyone think the typical local department has special insight into whether a specific pistol is the hotness, and that their tests actually determine anything that couldn't be learned in a 5 minute phone call with a knowledgeable person?

3) When was the last time you were genuinely impressed by what any selection process picked? Now if APD picked a Gen 4 Glock 17, or equivalent 9mm, an optional Surefire X300 light, and, for example, the new Safariland 7000X holster, I might think somebody was doing some thinking about what might be most useful for their officers.

[LittleLebowski]

I have a few reactions:

3) When was the last time you were genuinely impressed by what any selection process picked? Now if APD picked a Gen 4 Glock 17, or equivalent 9mm, an optional Surefire X300 light, and, for example, the new Safariland 7000X holster, I might think somebody was doing some thinking about what might be most useful for their officers.

Honestly? When MARSOC picked KAC 7.62 carbines but that's a tangent.

[jlw]

I have a few reactions:

1) As to what APD picks, who cares -- about as interesting as whether they select coke or pepsi for the soda machines in their facilities.

2) Police department selection processes seem as unbiased as a product liability damage award by a local jury against an out of state company in south (fill in your favorite state). Does anyone think the typical local department has special insight into whether a specific pistol is the hotness, and that their tests actually determine anything that couldn't be learned in a 5 minute phone call with a knowledgeable person?

3) When was the last time you were genuinely impressed by what any selection process picked? Now if APD picked a Gen 4 Glock 17, or equivalent 9mm, an optional Surefire X300 light, and, for example, the new Safariland 7000X holster, I might think somebody was doing some thinking about what might be most useful for their officers.

I have been impressed, but I was allowed to run the process personally. :) This was when I was a SGT at the PD.

The only requirement placed on me by the agency was to stick with .40SW. We did discuss other options, but in the end, we had .40SW ammo already, and we had subguns in .40SW. Going with anything else would have meant maintaining multiple calibers along with the upfront purchase of the subsequent caliber. The chief personally wanted to go to .45 ACP, but in the end it was budget and logistics that settled the caliber choice.

[GJM]

I have been impressed, but I was allowed to run the process personally. :) This was when I was a SGT at the PD.

The only requirement placed on me by the agency was to stick with .40SW. We did discuss other options, but in the end, we had .40SW ammo already, and we had subguns in .40SW. Going with anything else would have meant maintaining multiple calibers along with the upfront purchase of the subsequent caliber. The chief personally wanted to go to .45 ACP, but in the end it was budget and logistics that settled the caliber choice.

And, I bet you a dollar, you didn't need to run a test to figure out what to pick.

If the decision is to stay .40, pick a Glock or M&P, depending upon whether you prefer Ford or Chevy, and drive on?

[JHC]

I have a few reactions:

1) As to what APD picks, who cares -- about as interesting as whether they select coke or pepsi for the soda machines in their facilities.

2) Police department selection processes seem as unbiased as a product liability damage award by a local jury against an out of state company in south (fill in your favorite state). Does anyone think the typical local department has special insight into whether a specific pistol is the hotness, and that their tests actually determine anything that couldn't be learned in a 5 minute phone call with a knowledgeable person?

3) When was the last time you were genuinely impressed by what any selection process picked? Now if APD picked a Gen 4 Glock 17, or equivalent 9mm, an optional Surefire X300 light, and, for example, the new Safariland 7000X holster, I might think somebody was doing some thinking about what might be most useful for their officers.

Good points for sure. And I totally get your point in #3 but it sounds like a fun game so:

- ATF pistol trials sounded pretty extensive and thorough. But once one agency does all that, why re-invent the wheel?
- widespread shift to Glocks in SOCOM units impressed me. Even without formal trails.
- I don't know any details but it seems to have been a pretty elaborate trial when modern day ICE adopted the HK2000. That seemed pretty impressive worthy to me

OTOH the USMC selection of the Colt M45 failed to impress.

[JBP55]

Honestly? When MARSOC picked KAC 7.62 carbines but that's a tangent.

Was it MARSOC that picked the new Colt 1911?

[HCM]

I have a few reactions:

1) As to what APD picks, who cares -- about as interesting as whether they select coke or pepsi for the soda machines in their facilities.

3) When was the last time you were genuinely impressed by what any selection process picked? Now if APD picked a Gen 4 Glock 17, or equivalent 9mm, an optional Surefire X300 light, and, for example, the new Safariland 7000X holster, I might think somebody was doing some thinking about what might be most useful for their officers.

Re # 3 the wheels of Gov't turn slowly... it took 3 years to get VTAC slings for our M-4's and it has taken 5 years to start getting Safariland ALS Holsters issued .... ALS was the hot new thing from Safariland in 2007/2008.

Re # 1 - Coke ... it is after all Atlanta ...

[Tamara]

Was it MARSOC that picked the new Colt 1911?

Nobody bats 1.000. :eek:

[JHC]

Was it MARSOC that picked the new Colt 1911?

I followed the Lightfighter story on that pretty close and got some PMs from some there about it. My conclusion is the answer to your question is "not exactly" (it sounds to have been driven by the organization above any unit) and that may not be their actual daily driver anyway ie something a lot lighter with more rounds on board, super easy to maintain - Glock 19s.

[JHC]

Re # 3 the wheels of Gov't turn slowly... it took 3 years to get VTAC slings for our M-4's and it has taken 5 years to start getting Safariland ALS Holsters issued .... ALS was the hot new thing from Safariland in 2007/2008.

Re # 1 - Coke ... it is after all Atlanta ...

Choosing Pepsi would have been a much bigger deal that the pistol! LOL

[HCM]

Good points for sure. And I totally get your point in #3 but it sounds like a fun game so:

- I don't know any details but it seems to have been a pretty elaborate trial when modern day ICE adopted the HK2000. That seemed pretty impressive worthy to me



ICE did the testing, CBP / USBP adopted the P2000 & P2000sk 40 cal. ICE and USCG adopted the P-229DAK 40, TSA and USSS the P-229R .357

All weapons submitted were tested in all 3 DHS approved Calibers and in both a full or mid size and a compact ( 26/sksize). The following weapons passed the last round of DHS testing:

SIG P226, 229 & P239 in 9mm, 357 SIG and 40 S&W

HK USP Compact, P2000, P2000sk in 9mm, 357 SIG and 40 S&W

GLOCK 17, 19, 26 in 9mm only

The glocks tested were gen 3's, I suspect the Gen 4, 40's would fare better if this testing were repeated.



For Immediate Release
Press Office
Contact 202-282-8010
August 24, 2004

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security announced the award of two contracts today for handguns for all organizational elements within the department, including U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, U.S. Customs and Border Protection, the Transportation Security Administration, the U.S. Coast Guard and the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center.

SIGARMS Incorporated and Heckler & Koch, Incorporated each received a contract award with a maximum quantity of 65,000 pistols that may be purchased over the next five years. SIGARMS Incorporated, a small business located in Exeter, New Hampshire, received a $23.7 million contract for 9 x 19 mm and .40 caliber pistols. Heckler & Koch, a large business located in Sterling, Virginia, received a $26.2 million contract for 9 x 19 mm, .40, and .357 caliber pistols.

The two contracts will enable DHS personnel to acquire handguns in three popular law enforcement calibers and a variety of sizes. These contracts represent the results of the department’s Strategic Sourcing Program that is designed to optimize cross-departmental acquisitions through collaboration of agency technical and acquisition experts. The Weapons and Ammunition Commodity Council, part of the strategic sourcing program, identifies and consolidates emerging firearms and ammunition requirements for all Homeland Security components. As part of this effort, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) released a Request for Proposals in February 2004 for the procurement of handguns. The ICE National Firearms and Tactical Training Unit led the ensuing evaluation.

“This type of multiple contract award will provide the government the flexibility it needs to enable the DHS entities to address their diverse operational missions, while still maximizing logistical efficiencies found through standardization,” said Thomas Trotto, Director of the ICE National Firearms and Tactical Training Unit.

The technical evaluation of the proposals included a comprehensive handgun test protocol involving a rigorous battery of environmental, reliability, durability, and other tests. Approximately three million rounds of ammunition were fired through 690 handguns of 46 different models during the testing, which took almost four months to complete. Aside from the actual live firing, additional testing was conducted through laboratory analysis and armory inspections. In all, each model was evaluated against more than 50 characteristics before arriving at a technical rating. This data was used in conjunction with past performance and pricing information to select the winning contractors.

The Homeland Security Weapons and Ammunition Commodity Council continues to analyze the department’s requirements for weapons, ammunition, and other officer safety products to identify additional strategic sourcing opportunities."

[jlw]

And, I bet you a dollar, you didn't need to run a test to figure out what to pick.

If the decision is to stay .40, pick a Glock or M&P, depending upon whether you prefer Ford or Chevy, and drive on?

There's a little back story on it. Due to a combination of getting fully staffed and some additional positions, we had issued out almost all of our inventory, and the chief mentioned that we would probably buy 15 more pistols. I went to an armorers class and came home with a special purchase certificate. I called S&W to order a 5906TSW and was told at that time that the 3rd Generation pistols were being phased out in favor of the M&P. I inquired about an agency purchase of more 4006s and was told that they had 22 units left over from the production run to fill the CHP's order.

I went to the chief and informed him of this, and we discussed a few options. One was to buy 1911s for the SRT and then put their 4006s in inventory, but it was decided that "special" guns for somewould be a friction issue within the agency. I was then authorized to conduct testing and pricing. I was sent an M&P40 for T&E. We really liked the ergonomics, but many felt the muzzle flip and lack of a reset were an issue. I also looked at Sig, but at 100 units, it was getting beyond the budget limits.

I had an interesting interaction with Springfield. The XD was then fairly new on the market. I tried to contact them several times and got no response. I mentioned this on a forum, and no kidding, Rob Leatham's cousin read it, called Rob, and I got a call from Springfield that started with, "Mr. Leatham said you wanted to talk to us." They didn't have any agency sales program at the time. That's not to say that we would have gone XD, but I simply didn't want to leave a stone upturned.

I contacted Glock. They immediately invited me to attend an armorers course and came to the agency to show off their product.

The feedback from the guys was that of all of the options they wanted to go with the Glock, and Glock's salesmanship sealed the deal.

[ToddG]

- ATF pistol trials sounded pretty extensive and thorough. But once one agency does all that, why re-invent the wheel?

ATF only tested guns that met their written specifications. If another agency had different specifications it might allow guns that couldn't compete for ATF and/or disallow guns that did compete for ATF. ATF tested gen4 Glocks: guns that weren't even in the country when the solicitation was first announced. The next time a big agency tests, perhaps another company will have another new product.


- widespread shift to Glocks in SOCOM units impressed me. Even without formal trails.

There was a formal trial in some cases (G22 selection).

Some units adopted a model (G19) that had proven effective in Iraq & Afghanistan in the hands of other US and non-US entities.


I don't know any details but it seems to have been a pretty elaborate trial when modern day ICE adopted the HK2000. That seemed pretty impressive worthy to me

It was probably the most complicated weapon selection in US history. The fact that it resulted in selection of two brands (SIG & HK) and rejection of Glock (which won the ATF test years later) demonstrates that one size does not fit all when it comes to weapon selection.


ICE did the testing, CBP / USBP adopted the P2000 & P2000sk 40 cal. ICE and USCG adopted the P-229DAK 40, TSA and USSS the P-229R .357

Neither TSA (FAMS) nor USSS purchased off the DHSICE contract. The DHSICE contract required guns with a consistent trigger pull while both the FAM Service and USSS issue DA/SA pistols. USSS had a pre-existing contract for its guns. Most of the guns in FAM Service inventory at that time were purchased without a competitive bid as an "emergency measure" immediately after 9/11.

Also, SIG's 357-caliber guns were rejected by DHSICE prior to live fire testing because they allegedly had chambers which did not meet SAAMI specification. SIG later proved conclusively that the chambers were right (and a common chamber gauge on the market was wrong). Because the quantity of 357-caliber guns for the overall DHSICE contract was so small it wasn't worth protesting especially at the risk of angering the wrong people and jeopardizing the much more lucrative .40-cal segment of the contract. (if you read the quoted press release it clearly indicates that only HK was granted a contract for 357's)


The glocks tested were gen 3's, I suspect the Gen 4, 40's would fare better if this testing were repeated.

My recollection is that Glock never made it to the live fire testing because their .40-cal guns were deemed to have failed the chamber specification check. The procurement was written in such a way that a company was required to pass 9mm & .40 S&W guns in both sizes at every test phase to win a contract; submission of 357-caliber guns was optional and their failure during any phase of the test did not inhibit the manufacturer's 9 & 40 guns from continuing.

[JHC]

Great extra info! Can't budge you off that NDA though.

[HCM]

.

It was probably the most complicated weapon selection in US history. The fact that it resulted in selection of two brands (SIG & HK) and rejection of Glock (which won the ATF test years later) demonstrates that one size does not fit all when it comes to weapon selection.


Neither TSA (FAMS) nor USSS purchased off the DHSICE contract. The DHSICE contract required guns with a consistent trigger pull while both the FAM Service and USSS issue DA/SA pistols. USSS had a pre-existing contract for its guns. Most of the guns in FAM Service inventory at that time were purchased without a competitive bid as an "emergency measure" immediately after 9/11.

Also, SIG's 357-caliber guns were rejected by DHSICE prior to live fire testing because they allegedly had chambers which did not meet SAAMI specification. SIG later proved conclusively that the chambers were right (and a common chamber gauge on the market was wrong). Because the quantity of 357-caliber guns for the overall DHSICE contract was so small it wasn't worth protesting especially at the risk of angering the wrong people and jeopardizing the much more lucrative .40-cal segment of the contract. (if you read the quoted press release it clearly indicates that only HK was granted a contract for 357's)

M.

I've heard many versions of how this testing went down and learn something new everytime. I did not know the SIGs tested were DAK/ DAO only or thst the SIG .357's were not included. The Federal Protective Service switched from S&W 5946's to P229R's in 357 soon after they were megered into ICE though have since transitioned to P229R DAKs in 40.

DA/SA SIGs, SIG 357's and 9mm Glocks are on the DHS "approved list" - I wonder if this based on prior / legacy agency testing/ authorization ?

Re Glock and the ATF tests, I think when it comes to 40's the gen 4 really is a better mousetrap.

[ToddG]

The Federal Protective Service switched from S&W 5946's to P229R's in 357 soon after they were megered into ICE though have since transitioned to P229R DAKs in 40.

FAM Service also fell under that umbrella at that particular moment in DHS realignment history. FPS had purchased its 357-cal SIGs (off the USSS contract I think) before the "ICE test" that was won by the DAK SIGs (DAO for the P239 because no DAK existed at test time; the contract was later modified quietly to make them DAKs, too) and the HK LEMs.


DA/SA SIGs, SIG 357's and 9mm Glocks are on the DHS "approved list" - I wonder if this based on prior / legacy agency testing/ authorization?

Pre-DHS, US Customs carried 9mm Glocks and that's why they're still on the approved list. Ditto the P229 357 (Federal Protective Service).

[HCM]

Pre-DHS, US Customs carried 9mm Glocks and that's why they're still on the approved list. Ditto the P229 357 (Federal Protective Service).

Yes, it's my understanding those guns were "gifted" to the Iraqi police via US DOS

[John Hearne]

If my recent experience with S&W is any guide, then I understand the decision. I repeatedly emailed, from my .gov address, the head of Federal LE sales and never got a return message. I fought the S&W phone tree, got the Fed sales rep's cell number. I called, left a message and never got a call back. This was not an inquiry but an attempt to buy rifles.

I'm working with a local S&W rep to try to get the rifles but they report their luck hasn't been much better.

[ST911]

If my recent experience with S&W is any guide, then I understand the decision. I repeatedly emailed, from my .gov address, the head of Federal LE sales and never got a return message. I fought the S&W phone tree, got the Fed sales rep's cell number. I called, left a message and never got a call back. This was not an inquiry but an attempt to buy rifles.

I'm working with a local S&W rep to try to get the rifles but they report their luck hasn't been much better.

S&W has long had issues with its LE field reps. Wasn't it only a year or two ago that they canned/lost what looked like all of them for a time?

[KeeFus]

If my recent experience with S&W is any guide, then I understand the decision. I repeatedly emailed, from my .gov address, the head of Federal LE sales and never got a return message. I fought the S&W phone tree, got the Fed sales rep's cell number. I called, left a message and never got a call back. This was not an inquiry but an attempt to buy rifles.

I'm working with a local S&W rep to try to get the rifles but they report their luck hasn't been much better.

My experience with S&W LE reps has been a mixed bag. At the beginning of my agencies relationship with them...about 2 years ago...was lethargic at best. The past 6-8 months its been about par with what I've seen on the civilian side of things. I currently have a surplus of spare mag springs/followers (I was told that this is the current way they are replacing the troubled springs), slide stops, sights, and trigger springs.

[DocGKR]

Our west coast S&W reps are outstanding!

[karmapolice]

Our west coast S&W reps are outstanding!

tell them to send one of the west coast guys out east, so the SO can get some M&P 45 and 9s ;)

[mbanja]

I can tell you this is political all the way. The only benefit from switching is that Officer will get a standard trigger in the glock and no mag disconnect. Current M&P's have a 10+ pound trigger, magazine disconnect, and shortened mag release. IF you don't believe me, I know the whole process that led up to this and who wrote the bid etc.

God Bless the First Amendment, and God help those who abuse it… Forgive the longwinded response to this thread. I haven’t posted here since 2008 or so, and I was a little unhappy to learn that we had become the topic of such fiery discussion and bitter misinformation. The S&W M&P .40 is a great gun. It had the same level of expected issues that any developing platform can be expected of. The walking trigger pin was quickly resolved by S&W early in the weapon’s deployment by a complete swap of the trigger assembly. Yes, a ten minute job by a certified armorer is no biggie when your agency has 80 sworn personnel. Try it multiplied by 2000 guns and you’ll find yourself hammering roll pins in your dreams. Then we ran into the issue of the magazine catch/release. Several investigators and plainclothes officers who wore non-kydex holsters experienced magazine drops when moving from seated positions (ie. Getting out of a car and your mag falls out in a parking lot.). Not to mention the three OIS incidents where officers with an improper “revolver grip” on their weapon dropped magazines during gunfights. S&W reluctantly complied to manufacture a magazine release button that was exactly two millimeters smaller just to accommodate us. But, they refused to ship the guns from the factory this way. So there we go again with the “quick fix” of 2000 guns. Then the company underwent several management changes and shifted its focus to the race gun and civilian market. We began to experience issues with the slide stops shearing off. We were unable to get parts despite calls and emails. Chalking it up to “irreconcilable differences” we decided to try Plan G.

I wasn’t sold at first. The M&P is a decent gun. The Glock is a decent gun. Coke or Pepsi? What mattered most to us was that the coke machine was right down the hall. The pepsi machine was in springfield MA and keeps spitting our dollar back at us. So, we went with Glock.

The 8lb trigger on the APD issue M&P was a smart move in 2008. The previous service weapon had a 12lb DA on the first pull. Imagine an agency conditioned to a hard pull, with weapons being pulled under stress daily and the constant issue of trigger finger discipline and little opportunity for refresher training. Ouch, the NDs would have been catastrophic. Yes, it would have been the officer’s fault for poor trigger discipline, but at the end of the day we’d prefer the mistake not to result in a tragedy. Now, with baby steps, we’re going with a stock gun. The G22 with a standard 5.5 trigger. Yay.
So, the magazine release sear disconnect issue. APD adopted this in 1988 as a part of weapon retention. With the adoption of the Safariland holster line it no longer held importance. Plus, we just started teaching officers to put their thumb in the eye socket of the attacker in a weapon retention fight anyway instead of messing around with a mag button. No longer needed in 2013.
As to the politics of the transition – there are none. When you order a pizza and it arrives wrong, late, and you have to scrape off toppings you don’t like -you just don’t order pizza from there again. Nobody has any special relationships.

Now, when I need parts I hop in the truck, drive thirty minutes, and take what I want. Unannounced. No FedEx involved.
Now for the 9,40,45 debate. Please remember that caliber is irrelevant when you take ammunition construction into account. If LEOs carried nothing but ball FMJ we could argue all day long about caliber. But Winchester Ranger is a pretty wonderful thing when it contacts human flesh. It tends to stop attackers by causing rapid blood loss through multiple wound channels. In 9mm, .40, and .45 ACP. So, why the .45s? It has a few things to do with weight retention through glass. Lower muzzle flip and felt recoil when operating a weapon with one hand. And add onto that THEY ARE THE ONES WHO WANTED IT. If an operator told me that he wanted to carry a Lorcin .380 and then shot an expert score on the SQC with it I’d pat him on the back and wish him luck. I trust the operators, not the crap talkers and spectators. Remember, we shoot people to make them stop, not paper with a pac timer.

Please remember all – LEO training involves teaching young men and women to pass a qual course, then face fear, draw fast, find a sight, and squeeze a trigger under terrifying circumstances. Since many of our trainees have little to no experience – this can be like coaching full contact kindergarten football. I’m proud of our officers that survive our average one per month OIS and I could care less which weapon is used as long as they go home to their family with the same number of fingers, toes, and holes. 2300 officers divided by 45 per requal class then throw in a 7 day recruit mandate class every six weeks doesn’t leave much room for super tactical ninja shoot hanging upside down in the dark classes either…

Shooting race drills, attending fancy tactical courses that aren’t graded, and buying every piece of newfangled gear does not a gunfighter make. Applied fundamentals, intimate relationship with hand and gun ingrained through dry fire and repetition, and the humble patience of a disciplined warrior DOES.

[steve]

Mbanja,

Thank you for all the info.

[LSP972]

Wow.

Talk about hearing the other side of the story... and talk about being owned...:D

Mbanja, I feel your pain. One of the things I had to deal with back in the day was disgruntled troopers who didn't agree with a procurement decision and spread much BS because they didn't have all of the facts. etc.

And I REALLY like your coke/pepsi illustration. It tells me you have spent much time and thought breaking information down into easily digestible bites for administrators who have a one page-or less- attention span. BTDT as well.

Bravo, sir. And hang in there... retirement is good!;)

.

[Nephrology]

I think I just felt the earth shake a little bit.

[jlw]

...



Karmapolice is a big boy and can speak for himself. However, I will point out that your post mentions a lack of opportunity to train. I know first hand that he has been spending his own money to get training outside of the agency.

Having had my own issues with S&W, I can understand your plight especially having seen the response that you will get from Glock.

There are quite few in your own house putting out that politics is behind the switch. It's not just your young rookies. You just might find some of your upper brass saying the same thing.


As for APD tactical units, not to start an agency war here, but I have attended five shooting classes at GPSTC in which APD guys, usually a SWAT guy or at least proclaiming to be, failed the shooting test. If you want to start posting scores and talking about qualifications to be "tactical", please post their scores too.

[LittleLebowski]

To clarify, this forum has been in existence since 2011.

[karmapolice]

You know what you're 100% correct, I was out of line and it was disresptful. I apologize and that is all i can do and I will say nothing more about the subject. Mods feel to delete all of my post in this thread, I'm stepping out of it. All that was said was the musings of someone who only had the story told to him from his far removed area of work and shift.

[LittleLebowski]

Gentleman, this forum can discuss the vagaries of shooting, LE training, and PD purchases without delving into personal information and bringing up Facebook pics. We expect professionalism; we will endeavor to keep this community professional and polite. This is a great opportunity to change the recent tone of this thread.

[t101]

Now for the 9,40,45 debate. Please remember that caliber is irrelevant when you take ammunition construction into account. If LEOs carried nothing but ball FMJ we could argue all day long about caliber. But Winchester Ranger is a pretty wonderful thing when it contacts human flesh. It tends to stop attackers by causing rapid blood loss through multiple wound channels. In 9mm, .40, and .45 ACP. So, why the .45s? It has a few things to do with weight retention through glass. Lower muzzle flip and felt recoil when operating a weapon with one hand. And add onto that THEY ARE THE ONES WHO WANTED IT. If an operator told me that he wanted to carry a Lorcin .380 and then shot an expert score on the SQC with it I’d pat him on the back and wish him luck. I trust the operators, not the crap talkers and spectators. Remember, we shoot people to make them stop, not paper with a pac timer.

Please remember all – LEO training involves teaching young men and women to pass a qual course, then face fear, draw fast, find a sight, and squeeze a trigger under terrifying circumstances. Since many of our trainees have little to no experience – this can be like coaching full contact kindergarten football. I’m proud of our officers that survive our average one per month OIS and I could care less which weapon is used as long as they go home to their family with the same number of fingers, toes, and holes. 2300 officers divided by 45 per requal class then throw in a 7 day recruit mandate class every six weeks doesn’t leave much room for super tactical ninja shoot hanging upside down in the dark classes either…

Shooting race drills, attending fancy tactical courses that aren’t graded, and buying every piece of newfangled gear does not a gunfighter make. Applied fundamentals, intimate relationship with hand and gun ingrained through dry fire and repetition, and the humble patience of a disciplined warrior DOES.

Amen. There is a whole lot of truth in that right there.

[jlw]

I will state publicly for the record that mbanja smoked me in a match this morning.

The course was shot with an out of the box M&P40 on a plate rack. I'm still trying to figure out where the POA/POI thing is. The I can work on figuring out the trigger.

Good show.

[Savage Hands]

There's a credible rumor that Sacramento Sheriff is switching over to 9mm Glocks as well.

[1006TSW]

Resurecting an old tnread. I just purchased an Atlanta PD G21, Gen4.

I'm surprised they've been traded off this quickly. 2 years old and still looks almost new.

[LSP972]

Isn't it past time for another federal agency "test"? I know, I know, the FB Ones are in the middle of their "test"… the outcome of which is no doubt pre-ordained… but what I'm referring to is a repeat of the 2004 games that HCM documented so thoroughly.

.

[Sammy1]

Interesting. Cleveland PD SWAT/Cleveland Hts PD SWAT also use .45s while the rest of the agency uses 9mm/40 respectively.

I wonder how many other Agencies nationwide follow this practice.

Boston PD issues G22 in 40 S&W and their SWAT team carries Sig 1911s in 45acp. I actually prefer the M&P over Glock in 40S&W but both are great guns. A City PD not far from me went to Glock then M&P and now back to Glock. They ran into customer service issues with S&W but I've since heard that S&W is doing better in that area. Sig use to have poor CS with police agencies and they have come full circle and are doing a great job in that area. In fact Sig is really pushing the P320 and doing a great job working with PDs doing T&E.

[GJM]

Boston PD issues G22 in 40 S&W and their SWAT team carries Sig 1911s in 45acp. I actually prefer the M&P over Glock in 40S&W but both are great guns.

Can someone explain the logic of equipping the rank and file officers with one caliber and platform, and having the special guys, who may often carry the handgun as secondary to a long gun, with a different platform and caliber?

[Chuck Haggard]

Can someone explain the logic of equipping the rank and file officers with one caliber and platform, and having the special guys, who may often carry the handgun as secondary to a long gun, with a different platform and caliber?

For the most part it's very much a case of special guy syndrome.

[Sero Sed Serio]

Boston PD issues G22 in 40 S&W and their SWAT team carries Sig 1911s in 45acp. I actually prefer the M&P over Glock in 40S&W but both are great guns. A City PD not far from me went to Glock then M&P and now back to Glock. They ran into customer service issues with S&W but I've since heard that S&W is doing better in that area. Sig use to have poor CS with police agencies and they have come full circle and are doing a great job in that area. In fact Sig is really pushing the P320 and doing a great job working with PDs doing T&E.

A few years ago I was talking to a SWAT guy with a smaller Phoenix metro area agency on the day he was picking up his newly-issued 1911 (a SIG I believe?) to replace the general-issue G22. He said that the reason the SWAT team was switching over was that they wanted a manual safety gun due to the number of NDs the team was having. I just had to walk away from that one...

[Lon]

Can someone explain the logic of equipping the rank and file officers with one caliber and platform, and having the special guys, who may often carry the handgun as secondary to a long gun, with a different platform and caliber?

Because we're "special".:rolleyes:

We used to have a Sgt on SWAT (who thankfully has retired) who was always pushing for the SWAT guys to get Sig 220s instead of sticking with 9 like the rest of the agency. Why? Because 45, duh. And the rest of the agency wasn't "special" enough to carry it.

[Sammy1]

Cool guy syndrome and they want the best platform they can get. There is $ and training issues that make it easier for smaller specialty units to carry a different firearm. Also you may even consider magazine capacity, patrol probably has one firearm and is more likely to need a 15-17 round magazine then swat who have at least two firearms and do not deploy alone but rather in teams of 4+. There are other agencies, MSP, NEMLEC where you will see 1911s on the SWAT/SOU teams. FBI regional swat still carries 1911s whereas the HRT now carries the duty G22. Go figure.

[vcdgrips]

Full Disclosure-I am not, nor have I even been in the FBI.

Sammy1- When did HRT switch over to the G22?

I know that HRT tryouts are with a G22 ( as per an agent who was in the process)

I know that many HRT guys carried G21s CONUS despite having the option of a 1911 (as per an agent, now an ASAC who was on HRT)

I know that regional SWAT guys get issued 1911s after completing the transition school and former Regional SWAT guys can carry a personally owned 1911 identical to the one previously issued after they leave the team ( as per multiple agents currently on or formerly on regional teams)

I hear that HRT is going to the G34 sooner than the rest of the FBI is switching to the 9 mm platform to be choosen (as per a guy at IDPA today who knows a guy who may know a guy)

thx

David Barnes
www.vcdgrips.com

[Sammy1]

When they were down here for the Water Town incident they had G22s in their holsters (or could have been 17s but I assumed they were G22s.) If you can find any media pics from the incident you'll see glocks on their person.

[Gio]

Can someone explain the logic of equipping the rank and file officers with one caliber and platform, and having the special guys, who may often carry the handgun as secondary to a long gun, with a different platform and caliber?

I'm playing devil's advocate, but one plausible reason is that generally most rank and file officers are not good shooters, spend very little time on the range (1-2 times per year qualifying), and get the majority of the training they will have over the course of their entire career at their basic academy. I've seen some scary rank and file officers on the range, and certainly wouldn't want to hand them anything outside of their comfort zone.

On the other hand, special units/teams generally train much more frequently, have access to higher level/third party training resources, may have access to their own dedicated armorers/gunsmiths, and may have a mission set that in their eyes dictates having equipment that gives them more mechanical or on demand accuracy such as hostage rescue, active shooters, or barricaded subjects. Call it a crutch, but most shooters can shoot a good 1911 better than a stock glock trigger unless they put in a significant amount of dry and live fire time on the glock.

[45dotACP]

Can someone explain the logic of equipping the rank and file officers with one caliber and platform, and having the special guys, who may often carry the handgun as secondary to a long gun, with a different platform and caliber?
Uh...because 19byGod11 :D

[Trooper224]

I've been a cop for 24 years. I've done SWAT, I was one of the founding members of my agencies team, so I've been there and done that. There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON for the ninja squad to use anything different than the standard issue patrol sidearm, period. Modern, quality service pistols are all more than accurate enough to do the job. They also have the required capacity, unlike back in the wheelgun days. There's no need for some kind of highspeed special snowflake blaster. (anyone who still issues the 1911 at the agency or team level really has their head up their ass) More money, so SWAT gets cool stuff? Bollocks. How about dumping that money into training instead? Patrol guys can't shoot so they don't deserve it? Sweet Christ on a crutch, can you not see the false logic in that? How about more of that aforementioned training for everyone so we bring them all up to a standard? Besides, some of the most suck ass pistol shots I've seen were SWAT guys. Our team is currently looking at getting a new rifle in .300 Blackout, while standard issue remains the .223. I asked one of them why. Well, because special snowflake ninjas and all that. I pointed out the fact that SWAT has only shot maybe three or four folks in the entire history of the team, whereas patrol has smoked a considerably higher numeric. Patrol also works largely around vehicles, where we have generally found the .223 to be an inadequate penitrator. If the distinction has to be made, since patrol shoots more folks than the snowflake ninjas, shouldn't they have the more capable weapon? He had no answer for that.

[LockedBreech]

First, I know karmapolice personally and can vouch for the fact that he speaks with complete credibility in this issue; so, now its just a question of whether or not my vouching has any credibility. :cool:

I spoke with a member of the APD today who said that there were issues with S&W's customer service in dealing with some issues and that things added up to a point that the powers that be decided to make the switch. I have personally had issues with the LE sales rep for GA to the point that it has cost a local distributor sales. Our SRT voted to dump their Kimber 1911s in favor of the M&P45, but the rep has completely dropped the ball on this. This is the same rep that led a GA Sheriff to send out a letter to all of the state's Sheriffs' Offices concerning issues with the service they were receiving. A prominent member of this forum has direct knowledge of the situation.

I understand that I am quoting a 2013 post, but I think it points to an interesting systemic issue. I've bolded for emphasis.

I have an inside source with the Wyoming Highway Patrol which in the last few months switched from M&P 40 to Glock 35 Gen 4 (I own one of the former WHP M&P 40 pistols, in point of fact). WHP is a small agency, so we're talking ~250 pistols, but troopers are frequently 50+ miles from backup, so critique of equipment is always pretty severe. I've had family in the WHP in some capacity for 20+ years, so I'm not talking completely out of my rear end here. The M&P was issued in 2011 and they gave up on them about 3 months ago.

The critical issue, according to the Trooper I purchased mine from, was not actualliy the quality of the guns, it was the responsiveness of customer service. They simply couldn't get their rep on the phone. When they needed their guns serviced in any way it was, at least per what I was told, always an ordeal. That's why they went back to Glock (they had previously issued Gen 3 G22s).

[Trooper224]

The critical issue, according to the Trooper I purchased mine from, was not actualliy the quality of the guns, it was the responsiveness of customer service. They simply couldn't get their rep on the phone. When they needed their guns serviced in any way it was, at least per what I was told, always an ordeal. That's why they went back to Glock (they had previously issued Gen 3 G22s).

This is really one of the two main reasons why Glock is so dominant in LE. Their customer support is unrivaled and they often give the things away for free. Marketing genius.

[ranger]

I live in the Atlanta area - I am not LEO in any way and have no first hand knowledge of Glock and LEO customer service. However, I can stop by Glock Smyrna with no appointment and get night sights installed on my personally owned Glock for $55 or so. While they had my Glock for night sights, they "inspected" my Glock (far as I can tell they replaced everything but frame, slide, and barrel) and swapped out my two old mags for new ones. I have done this with multiple Glocks. They have unparalleled customer service in my experience.

[LockedBreech]

This is really one of the two main reasons why Glock is so dominant in LE. Their customer support is unrivaled and they often give the things away for free. Marketing genius.


I live in the Atlanta area - I am not LEO in any way and have no first hand knowledge of Glock and LEO customer service. However, I can stop by Glock Smyrna with no appointment and get night sights installed on my personally owned Glock for $55 or so. While they had my Glock for night sights, they "inspected" my Glock (far as I can tell they replaced everything but frame, slide, and barrel) and swapped out my two old mags for new ones. I have done this with multiple Glocks. They have unparalleled customer service in my experience.

It's the Amazon model that has kept me a Prime customer for 5 years. If you really, genuinely make your customers the end-all, be-all, your business will thrive. It just requires being willing to take the short-term hit for long-term loyalty. And with bean-counters and agencies that are too busy to chase support tickets, it's massively important.

[HCM]

U
Isn't it past time for another federal agency "test"? I know, I know, the FB Ones are in the middle of their "test"… the outcome of which is no doubt pre-ordained… but what I'm referring to is a repeat of the 2004 games that HCM documented so thoroughly.

.

DHS ICE just did - but only for striker fired 9mm. The 40 is going away, at least at the Fed level.

Current test protocol is 15 guns per model - 5 for lab testing and 10 for live fire. Live fire guns will fire 10k rounds each in 250 round strings. 5 of the guns will be shot as is and 5 with TLR-1 WML mounted. We are supposed get the results spring or summer of 2016.

[PPGMD]

It's the Amazon model that has kept me a Prime customer for 5 years. If you really, genuinely make your customers the end-all, be-all, your business will thrive. It just requires being willing to take the short-term hit for long-term loyalty. And with bean-counters and agencies that are too busy to chase support tickets, it's massively important.

I wouldn't compare it to the Amazon model, getting Glock to pay for shipping for anything but a safety recall is like pulling teeth. I had a Gen 3 Glock 19 that stove piped every 100 rounds or so sit in my safe unused for years until GJM hooked me up with a new extractor.

[nwhpfan]

Can someone explain the logic of equipping the rank and file officers with one caliber and platform, and having the special guys, who may often carry the handgun as secondary to a long gun, with a different platform and caliber?

The reason is very simple...as simple as why does X Police Department go with XZY 9mm while Y Police Dept. picks ABC in .45

At many police departments the ability to pick, select, and purchase for SWAT...the number of people involved are very few. Team members, Team Sgt, Team Commander, etc. Also it is very likely at even a very big agency every single SWAT person will have some say in the handgun they will carry.

So the guys running the whole dept. go out and decide the pistol for the whole agency will be the Glock 22. Meanwhile the guys on SWAT are shooting 20k a year and go through their guns much faster so after a few years they need new guns (the rest of the dept. does not) the SWAT guys don't like .40 for a whole bunch of reasons...one being the hit to their ammo training budget would free up money for other stuff. So they decide they want Glock 34's....it takes about 3 people in the whole agency to make it happen and that's that.....

[LSP972]

U

DHS ICE just did - but only for striker fired 9mm. The 40 is going away, at least at the Fed level.



Yeah, been hearing all kinds of rumbles regarding that (the .40 going away, that is). Its not just the feds, either; two large local agencies here have done that (one complete, one in the process).

Striker only, eh? I guess the Sig 320 is the joker in that deck. I just wonder HOW durable, really, that fire control mechanism is??? From all accounts, there are a LOT of itty-bitty springs and pieces/parts in that contraption.

They doing the testing at FLETC?

.

[5pins]

They doing the testing at FLETC?

.

The testing is being done at the Altoona armory.

[Beat Trash]

Striker only, eh? I guess the Sig 320 is the joker in that deck. I just wonder HOW durable, really, that fire control mechanism is??? From all accounts, there are a LOT of itty-bitty springs and pieces/parts in that contraption.



Brother your'e not kidding!

I have a new Sig 320c 9mm for the wife. I pulled the striker assembly out of the slide to clean/dry the hole in the slide where the striker rests. Something I do on my M&P's and Glocks every so often. There's even tiny little levers with springs on the side of the striker. They easily pop out of place and prevent the striker assembly from going back in. I found out the hard way...

[LSP972]

The testing is being done at the Altoona armory.

Far beyond those other pesky agencies and prying eyes… got it.;)

.

[HCM]

The testing is being done at the Altoona armory.

What he said ^^^^^. ICE's national office of firearms and tactical programs has a national Armory in the old INS border patrol armory facility in Altoona Pennsylvania, on the grounds of the former Fort Indiantown gap. The tactical operation branch which does firearms defensive tactics instructor programs and SRT/tactical training schools is located at Fort Benning GA where the old US customs national firearms unit was based.

CBP/border patrol now has their own combined facility in Harpers Ferry West Virginia.

[HCM]

E
Yeah, been hearing all kinds of rumbles regarding that (the .40 going away, that is). Its not just the feds, either; two large local agencies here have done that (one complete, one in the process).

Striker only, eh? I guess the Sig 320 is the joker in that deck. I just wonder HOW durable, really, that fire control mechanism is??? From all accounts, there are a LOT of itty-bitty springs and pieces/parts in that contraption.

They doing the testing at FLETC?

.

On a sidenote, they are using all.duty ammo for the testing. This would be a problem as most of the FLETC ranges are now restricted to leadfree ammunition only.

The FLETC rifle schools now have to go to Fort Stewart because there are no ranges beyond 50 yards...

And you thought the good idea fairy was a problem at the state and local level.....

[CanineCombatives]

From all accounts, there are a LOT of itty-bitty springs and pieces/parts in that contraption.

You've been getting bad accounts.......

[JHC]

You've been getting bad accounts.......

???? There are not?

[HCM]

Yeah, been hearing all kinds of rumbles regarding that (the .40 going away, that is). Its not just the feds, either; two large local agencies here have done that (one complete, one in the process).

Striker only, eh? I guess the Sig 320 is the joker in that deck. I just wonder HOW durable, really, that fire control mechanism is??? From all accounts, there are a LOT of itty-bitty springs and pieces/parts in that contraption.

.

Yes, it's not just at the federal level. The Texas and Oklahoma state troopers are following their brothers in New Mexico in dropping the 357 SIG round for the 9 mm.

Regarding the P320. It is more complicated and has more tiny bits then the Glock but it's not as bad as the FNS for example. Honestly, barring any new models that have not yet been released to ths public , I believe it will be between the Glock the SIG P320 and maybe the VP 9.

Our agents are not allowed to do anything other than field strip their duty guns anyway. Even our field armorer program is pretty limited. Even if the FMAT knows how to fix an issue they normally would rather fed ex a gun to the national armory rather than sending out a part.

[Texaspoff]

Yeah, been hearing all kinds of rumbles regarding that (the .40 going away, that is). Its not just the feds, either; two large local agencies here have done that (one complete, one in the process).

Striker only, eh? I guess the Sig 320 is the joker in that deck. I just wonder HOW durable, really, that fire control mechanism is??? From all accounts, there are a LOT of itty-bitty springs and pieces/parts in that contraption.

They doing the testing at FLETC?

.

Yeah the striker assembly and fire control unit does have a few more parts than the Glock, but that is the nature of the beast for improving trigger pulls etc etc. Every other striker pistol out has more parts than a Glock as well.

The 320 is designed to be a modular pistol all the way around. The frame, the sear unit in the fire control assembly and the striker assembly as designed to be replaced as a whole unit. Your striker, trigger, frame what have you fails, the whole unit is replaced with a new one and your up and running.

Glocks are very simple there is no question, and thus everyone an their mother knows how to strip them down past the normal field strip. The drawback is now everyone who knows how to strip a glock wants to be able to strip every pistol that way. The drawback is when you strip other pistols past their normal field strip, you find all the little parts that make it work. Try stripping a VP9, FNS or PPQ.

So lets look at the 320 and its design. It is also very easy to completely strip it down, especially if you know how to strip a glock. Yes the 320 has some smaller parts, but they are part of whole assemblies, that were designed to be changed by armors, not the average Joe. Armorer training makes you aware of all the little parts that can get away, get lost, or not get put back correctly. The 320 was designed to be a service pistol, you run it till is breaks and then hand it to the armorer, he replaces a few assemblies and it is GTG. So far in all the testing I have seen, including my own 320, it hasn't had any issue. My 320 has over 5k rounds through it with at least 1k of those being 124 +p's. So far not failures of any kind.

I still like Glocks for all their simplicity, and if I was going to the sandbox tomorrow, I would without doubt take my 19, and small bag of parts to keep it running. Being I am here, having access to all kinds of resources, I will continue running my 320 on duty until it gives me a reason not to. I'll take a few small parts to get a better trigger as long as it doesn't come at the price of reliability, and my 320 hasn't been unreliable yet.


TXPO

[HCM]

Far beyond those other pesky agencies and prying eyes… got it.;)

.

I missed this earlier. FLETC is like a co-op, for basic and some advanced training - like a regional or community college based academy it mostly benefits smaller agencies. The larger agencies participate because they are mandated to or more often because you can't beat the price of feeding, housing and transporting trainees. Most large and medium agencies have their own specialty training and armory facilities elsewhere.

[stingray]

???? There are not?

It really isn't that bad or complex, once the parts are understood. At least that is how I looked at after I completed the armorers course.

[stingray]

Yeah the striker assembly and fire control unit does have a few more parts than the Glock, but that is the nature of the beast for improving trigger pulls etc etc. Every other striker pistol out has more parts than a Glock as well.

The 320 is designed to be a modular pistol all the way around. The frame, the sear unit in the fire control assembly and the striker assembly as designed to be replaced as a whole unit. Your striker, trigger, frame what have you fails, the whole unit is replaced with a new one and your up and running.

Glocks are very simple there is no question, and thus everyone an their mother knows how to strip them down past the normal field strip. The drawback is now everyone who knows how to strip a glock wants to be able to strip every pistol that way. The drawback is when you strip other pistols past their normal field strip, you find all the little parts that make it work. Try stripping a VP9, FNS or PPQ.

So lets look at the 320 and its design. It is also very easy to completely strip it down, especially if you know how to strip a glock. Yes the 320 has some smaller parts, but they are part of whole assemblies, that were designed to be changed by armors, not the average Joe. Armorer training makes you aware of all the little parts that can get away, get lost, or not get put back correctly. The 320 was designed to be a service pistol, you run it till is breaks and then hand it to the armorer, he replaces a few assemblies and it is GTG. So far in all the testing I have seen, including my own 320, it hasn't had any issue. My 320 has over 5k rounds through it with at least 1k of those being 124 +p's. So far not failures of any kind.

I still like Glocks for all their simplicity, and if I was going to the sandbox tomorrow, I would without doubt take my 19, and small bag of parts to keep it running. Being I am here, having access to all kinds of resources, I will continue running my 320 on duty until it gives me a reason not to. I'll take a few small parts to get a better trigger as long as it doesn't come at the price of reliability, and my 320 hasn't been unreliable yet.


TXPO

Pretty much sums it up.

[LSP972]

You've been getting bad accounts.......

I think not.

.

[rauchman]

I think not.

.

+1

In my tinkerers quest for a better trigger pull, I now have 1st hand experience detail stripping the FCU on the 320. It has quite a few einsey weinsey small springs and pins....really einsey weinsey. I'm still waiting for a replacement safety takedown lever from Sig since I successfully tested the lateral strength limits of this piece made from modern manufacturing methods...in other words, I snapped that MIM made piece in 2 using just the slightest lateral pressure. Was not expecting that. Once I get that piece from Sig, the reassembly attempt will be made. The upside is, the contact points to smooth out the trigger pull are pretty easy to get to and do.

I think Texaspoff nailed it in his summary of the innards of the P320. As with LSP972, while I really like the pistol, I'm curious as to the potential perceived vulnerability of the FCU to get gummed up with any debris that gets to the FCU. There are couple of small open areas between the slide / frame and I've wondered more than once if some sand got in there, would it stop up the FCU or striker for that matter. I'm guessing the FBI's testing of their new pistol would reveal any reliability issues of the P320 such as this.

[LockedBreech]

Is it at all analogous to the lockwork of a Colt revolver? Because I have a Detective Special and a Python with trigger pulls that I dream of any time I shoot any other gun, they're perfect, but I understand that the internals are a nightmare to work on.

In the Colt's case, did it ever turn into an actual reliability issue?

I realize revolvers/semis is apples/oranges but what I'm getting at is, will those icky internals ever be a real issue or is the platform just too new to know the answer?

Also how do the VP9 internals compare, simplicity wise? Somewhere between G17 and P320? No modular FCU which I imagine helps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[stingray]

Is it at all analogous to the lockwork of a Colt revolver? Because I have a Detective Special and a Python with trigger pulls that I dream of any time I shoot any other gun, they're perfect, but I understand that the internals are a nightmare to work on.

In the Colt's case, did it ever turn into an actual reliability issue?

I realize revolvers/semis is apples/oranges but what I'm getting at is, will those icky internals ever be a real issue or is the platform just too new to know the answer?

Also how do the VP9 internals compare, simplicity wise? Somewhere between G17 and P320? No modular FCU which I imagine helps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think we are seeing people doing today, what they did 50 years ago with the detective special and having the same results. History repeating itself with people having taken apart things they didn't understand.

[LSP972]

Is it at all analogous to the lockwork of a Colt revolver? Because I have a Detective Special and a Python with trigger pulls that I dream of any time I shoot any other gun, they're perfect, but I understand that the internals are a nightmare to work on.

I realize revolvers/semis is apples/oranges but what I'm getting at is, will those icky internals ever be a real issue or is the platform just too new to know the answer?

Also how do the VP9 internals compare, simplicity wise? Somewhere between G17 and P320? No modular FCU which I imagine helps.


Colt revolver lockworks are indeed on the complicated side; much more so than S&W. GOOD Colt revolver mechanics- those that know what they are doing- have always been scarce outside of Hartford, and today probably can be counted on one's fingers.

The VP9 is definitely more involved, parts-wise, than its hammer brethren. There are two ways to look at the P320; one, as has been stated already, the FCU is just another replaceable part that is an armorer's problem, not the user. That's fine if one has a competent armorer on call nearby, and if you want to look at it that way, then the P320 is not as "complex" as the VP9. The other way is to consider a P320 as its owner/operator's responsibility, which describes most of us here. And since I haven't been inside a P320, I'll not venture an opinion on which is "better"; but from what reliable information I am aware of (I owned one for a short while and field-stripped it several times), the VP9 is quite sophisticated and not for the kitchen table "gunsmith" to mess with. So I would say that either pistol is best left to properly trained/experienced company armorers. IOW, if those of us in the hinterlands want a pistol we can completely service ourselves… better look elsewhere.

One other thing that was mentioned struck me as rather odd… to wit, this complexity is necessary if one wants a decent trigger in a striker fired pistol. Sorry, that one I don't get. I have handled a metric shit-load of Glocks, and their collective triggers simply aren't that bad. For that matter, the HK LEM trigger isn't that bad. No, neither is "target grade", but if you're wanting a good fighting pistol, both will do nicely.

Of course, if you're chasing "splits" or 3x5 cards, then maybe it matters.

Okay, sorry, perhaps that was a bit harsh. I get the quest of better marksmanship, I really do. But sometimes I wonder what the motivations really are behind some of the stuff I read here.

Rant off.

.

[Trooper224]

Of course, if you're chasing "splits" or 3x5 cards, then maybe it matters.

Okay, sorry, perhaps that was a bit harsh. I get the quest of better marksmanship, I really do. But sometimes I wonder what the motivations really are behind some of the stuff I read here.

Preach it brother.

[LockedBreech]

Colt revolver lockworks are indeed on the complicated side; much more so than S&W. GOOD Colt revolver mechanics- those that know what they are doing- have always been scarce outside of Hartford, and today probably can be counted on one's fingers.

The VP9 is definitely more involved, parts-wise, than its hammer brethren. There are two ways to look at the P320; one, as has been stated already, the FCU is just another replaceable part that is an armorer's problem, not the user. That's fine if one has a competent armorer on call nearby, and if you want to look at it that way, then the P320 is not as "complex" as the VP9. The other way is to consider a P320 as its owner/operator's responsibility, which describes most of us here. And since I haven't been inside a P320, I'll not venture an opinion on which is "better"; but from what reliable information I am aware of (I owned one for a short while and field-stripped it several times), the VP9 is quite sophisticated and not for the kitchen table "gunsmith" to mess with. So I would say that either pistol is best left to properly trained/experienced company armorers. IOW, if those of us in the hinterlands want a pistol we can completely service ourselves… better look elsewhere.

One other thing that was mentioned struck me as rather odd… to wit, this complexity is necessary if one wants a decent trigger in a striker fired pistol. Sorry, that one I don't get. I have handled a metric shit-load of Glocks, and their collective triggers simply aren't that bad. For that matter, the HK LEM trigger isn't that bad. No, neither is "target grade", but if you're wanting a good fighting pistol, both will do nicely.

Of course, if you're chasing "splits" or 3x5 cards, then maybe it matters.

Okay, sorry, perhaps that was a bit harsh. I get the quest of better marksmanship, I really do. But sometimes I wonder what the motivations really are behind some of the stuff I read here.

Rant off.

.

I'm an admittedly low-volume / mediocre shooter but I remember when I first tried a Glock trigger (just a few years ago, own two now) I was really surprised because I had been told it wasn't a very good trigger. I think Glock triggers (and the similar Walther PPS trigger I usually carry) are just dandy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JHC]

I'm an admittedly low-volume / mediocre shooter but I remember when I first tried a Glock trigger (just a few years ago, own two now) I was really surprised because I had been told it wasn't a very good trigger. I think Glock triggers (and the similar Walther PPS trigger I usually carry) are just dandy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm fairly high volume 8K this year. When I was 1911 oriented I thought the Gen 1 Glock trigger an abomination. Now with 15+ years on them I can't keep up to my Glock shooting with my custom 1911. Including on 3x5 cards out to stupid distances.

[LSP552]

I'm fairly high volume 8K this year. When I was 1911 oriented I thought the Gen 1 Glock trigger an abomination. Now with 15+ years on them I can't keep up to my Glock shooting with my custom 1911. Including on 3x5 cards out to stupid distances.

Yep, different isn't always bad. I really believe than a mediocre trigger helps make a better shooter and, once a better shooter, things like triggers matter less.

[Gio]

I'm fairly high volume 8K this year. When I was 1911 oriented I thought the Gen 1 Glock trigger an abomination. Now with 15+ years on them I can't keep up to my Glock shooting with my custom 1911. Including on 3x5 cards out to stupid distances.

I'm in this category as well. I can shoot a great bullseye target or some slow/untimed 50-100yd groups with my custom 1911's, but for anything under any kind of time pressure I am better with the glock, and even those slow fire groups aren't that far off from where I am on the 1911's.

[spinmove_]

I'm in this category as well. I can shoot a great bullseye target or some slow/untimed 50-100yd groups with my custom 1911's, but for anything under any kind of time pressure I am better with the glock, and even those slow fire groups aren't that far off from where I am on the 1911's.

In my short time shooting, I've discovered that it doesn't matter how "good" or "bad" a trigger is on any particular firearm. If you flub something up while using the gun, its your fault, not the trigger/gun/<insert widget here>. Since I've adopted this mindset I've found that I can pretty much pick up any pistol and shoot it about as good as the gun I had used before it. It truly is the Indian and not the arrow...

[LSP972]

In my short time shooting, I've discovered that it doesn't matter how "good" or "bad" a trigger is on any particular firearm. If you flub something up while using the gun, its your fault, not the trigger/gun/<insert widget here>. Since I've adopted this mindset I've found that I can pretty much pick up any pistol and shoot it about as good as the gun I had used before it. It truly is the Indian and not the arrow...

Exactly. I have several friends who have as much, or more, experience on different "platforms" as I do, either through long-time involvement in training or being a well-heeled enthusiast who can afford a bunch of toys. All of these guys are pretty good with pretty much whatever you put in their hands.

The first time I exposed LSP552 to Tom Givens' Casino Drill, he cleaned it in 17 seconds (par time is 21 seconds) using a G17 he hadn't shot in months. He's a dedicated Sig guy, and you cannot get much polar opposites than a Glock and a Sig DA/SA when the topic is triggers.

But we're gear-heads, fascinated with features, etc. Its our nature. I find that trait waning as I age, so forgive me my curmudgeonly ways...:D

.

[Chuck Whitlock]

The VP9 is definitely more involved, parts-wise, than its hammer brethren.

This is an interesting observation. An exploded diagram of the Sig P250 shows only 40 parts total, including the 5 magazine parts. I was surprised, as compared to Glock's 34 parts. Granted that several of those parts aren't as big and honking as the Glock's. Not sure of the 320's part count.




There are two ways to look at the P320; one, as has been stated already, the FCU is just another replaceable part that is an armorer's problem, not the user. That's fine if one has a competent armorer on call nearby, and if you want to look at it that way, then the P320 is not as "complex" as the VP9. The other way is to consider a P320 as its owner/operator's responsibility, which describes most of us here. And since I haven't been inside a P320, I'll not venture an opinion on which is "better"; but from what reliable information I am aware of (I owned one for a short while and field-stripped it several times), the VP9 is quite sophisticated and not for the kitchen table "gunsmith" to mess with. So I would say that either pistol is best left to properly trained/experienced company armorers. IOW, if those of us in the hinterlands want a pistol we can completely service ourselves… better look elsewhere.

While the Glock is the king of simplicity, just how complex are the 320 and VP9 as compared to other service pistols which are not Glock? Classic Sig? Beretta? How many of those are suitable for "owner/operator" use v. agency/armorer supported?

[Luke]

VP9's are easy. If you've seen any of my posts then you know I'm not the smartest. I detail stripped mine 3 or 4 times and a buddy's once. , chopped the slide stop, removed the trigger trough and some other stuff.


http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp81/hook_setter/Mobile%20Uploads/B6F9AB0B-DAF6-411B-967C-5ACF13ADAA4B_zpsi7g4wedh.jpg (http://s400.photobucket.com/user/hook_setter/media/Mobile%20Uploads/B6F9AB0B-DAF6-411B-967C-5ACF13ADAA4B_zpsi7g4wedh.jpg.html)

Everybody makes things way more complicated than they are. Hit take it apart, put it back the same way, and don't break anything.

There is a great tutorial on hkpro by toosixy, very easy to follow. If you can detail strip other strikers you can do this one.

[spinmove_]

Exactly. I have several friends who have as much, or more, experience on different "platforms" as I do, either through long-time involvement in training or being a well-heeled enthusiast who can afford a bunch of toys. All of these guys are pretty good with pretty much whatever you put in their hands.

The first time I exposed LSP552 to Tom Givens' Casino Drill, he cleaned it in 17 seconds (par time is 21 seconds) using a G17 he hadn't shot in months. He's a dedicated Sig guy, and you cannot get much polar opposites than a Glock and a Sig DA/SA when the topic is triggers.

But we're gear-heads, fascinated with features, etc. Its our nature. I find that trait waning as I age, so forgive me my curmudgeonly ways...:D

.

Oh I totally get that. I have a nasty "enjoy the finer things in life" trait that I have a hard time shaking. I'd absolutely love to own a Wilson Combat and at least 2 or 3 more classic Sigs. But at the same time, I have to fight the urge to sell my P229 + mags and accessories to get myself back into a G19 platform because it does everything the P229 does only cheaper, simpler, more streamlined, and easier to replace if something bad happens.

For now I'll simply enjoy having my P229 and work with it to improve my skills, but you can bet that I'll be saving up to add a G19 to the safe and eventually transition to that for the long term.

[Texaspoff]

One parts diagram for the Sig P320 coming right up.

P320
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/p320diagram_zpsznsr2f9y.jpg

VP9
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/VP9_zpshhlwnwww.gif

PPQ
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/PPQ_zpslmr7j0bh.jpg

G17
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/G17-Gen4-Exploded-View-with-legend31_zpsnfs4defy.jpg

Yes Glocks wins hands down for least amount of parts am simplicity without a doubt. That doesn't always equate into the best performance either.

TXPO

[JHC]

One parts diagram for the Sig P320 coming right up.

P320
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/p320diagram_zpsznsr2f9y.jpg

VP9
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/VP9_zpshhlwnwww.gif

PPQ
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/PPQ_zpslmr7j0bh.jpg

G17
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/G17-Gen4-Exploded-View-with-legend31_zpsnfs4defy.jpg

Yes Glocks wins hands down for least amount of parts am simplicity without a doubt. That doesn't always equate into the best performance either.

TXPO

That's a pretty cool set. Thanks.

[jh9]

How many of those are suitable for "owner/operator" use v. agency/armorer supported?

Glocks, 1911s, Beretta, SIG (P series) even S&W revolvers I can get parts from Brownells, Midway, Wilson, Grayguns etc. Knowhow is available from vetted sources as well.

The biggest difference is parts and information availability. If both OEM and quality replacement parts/tools are available from multiple sources and the knowledge is open source then you're in another world compared to a single source with minimal aftermarket support and factory-only armorer instruction.

HK is, afaik, in the Ruger boat: parts come from them, knowhow comes from them. Maybe today they'll sell parts...in the past (by reputation) they wouldn't. Even if you get the parts it's easy to do it wrong and break things or get greatly reduced service life because you installed it Bubba style instead of correctly. Gorilla twisting trigger springs into Glock trigger bars before they started chamfering them comes to mind. Sure, it's fine now. But that spring's service life is now greatly reduced because you bent that tiny little leg just wrong across a hard angle on the steel trigger bar. How many youtube videos mention that? Especially if you compare them to Brownells/Kuhnhausen/AGW/etc.

Getting it done is easy. Not being back to square one a few weeks later because it was done wrong in a less than obvious way can be much more difficult. Without the factory making armorer materials more readily available you're down to relying on shooters figuring these things out on their own. It might not be black magic, but for a carry gun I want a knowledgeable 2nd (or 3rd) party confirming what I'm doing is right and I didn't create as many issues as I fixed. The Randy Lees and Bruce Grays of the world I'll take at face value. Arbitrary youtube videos not so much. Which, for the VP9 and 320, is all we have right now.

eta: Granted, I don't think that's going to be the case forever...right now both of those have "black box" written all over them to me.

[LSP972]

While the Glock is the king of simplicity, just how complex are the 320 and VP9 as compared to other service pistols which are not Glock? Classic Sig? Beretta? How many of those are suitable for "owner/operator" use v. agency/armorer supported?

Depends upon the skill/courage level of the "owner/operator".

As noted earlier, I cannot opine as to the P320; no experience with it other than handling a couple in a gun store. The HK hammer guns and Sig classic series pistols are pretty straightforward, with the Sigs being a bit less complex IMO. Each has its problem areas, but to my mind one of the determining factors is this... how many specialized tools are necessary to make it as painless as possible? A folded-slide Sig just needs a proper size roll pin punch, for the head block pins. The real aggravating part of reassembling one of these is getting the trigger bar to pop into place in the frame, and that is pure careful manipulation (no tools) and holding your mouth right. Also better not install the locking block with the trigger pin notches up, either; ditto the magazine catch plunger upside down.

The HK hammer guns are best done with several different size punches and the nifty trigger return spring tool, although that too is pure technique that you figure out after doing a few of them. I will say that I have yet to find any instances where installing something wrong in an HK hammer gun will do irreparable damage- it just won't work, so you pull it apart and start over. But take a look at the FPB mechanism on the VP9... lots of spaghetti involved in that arrangement.

Install the mag catch plunger upside down in a Sig classic frame, and you're totally hosed. They (Sig) say there is a way to get it out without trashing the frame, but they won't share that technique and insist you return the frame to them.

As for the others you mentioned... if S&W designed a fork, it would have three moving parts. I HATED getting inside those Gen 3 59 series pistols. I haven't had the need (nor desire) to get inside an M&P, but the Stigma is pretty much a PITA. And unless you've done a bunch of them, better have an armorer's manual handy when tackling a Beretta. IMO, of course.

There will always be the guys who say "How hard can it be???" and jump in. Some get lucky, or else they have an excellent grasp of spatial mechanics and can figure it out as they go. Those guys are not common. The guy who brings you a paper bag full of parts and a sheepish expression is much more common.

The bottom line here is, its not rocket science. OEM armorer training is generally not available to nonmilitary/non-LE individuals, so many times we're on our own. If you have the patience and the wallet, you can learn your chosen pistol without a prohibitive amount of effort. But there is usually more than one way to skin the cat. If a part breaks, okay, you gotta replace it. But if you drop the gun in a mud hole, or salt water, etc., you can... usually... handle it by field-stripping, thoroughly rinsing the piece in fresh, clear water, then douching it down COMPLETELY with non-chlorinated brake cleaner. That stuff will displace all of the water/moisture; it will also remove every trace of lubricant, so you must carefuly re-lube the piece and take pains to prevent corrosion. No doubt you will hear all sort of moans and groans about this (using AUTOMOTIVE products in your firearm??? HERESY!!) and other drivel. Take it for what its worth to you. I have done this numerous times, and the only caveat (aside from ensuring that you bought NON-chlorinated product- the chlorinated stuff will attack polymer frames) is beware of plastic parts; as in, don't expose them to the spray. I have done Glock, HK, Walter, S&W, & Ruger polymer frames & pieces/parts with no ill effects.

.

[LSP972]

...right now both of those have "black box" written all over them to me.

LOL. Agreed.

.

[rsa-otc]

As for the others you mentioned... if S&W designed a fork, it would have three moving parts. I HATED getting inside those Gen 3 59 series pistols. I haven't had the need (nor desire) to get inside an M&P, but the Stigma is pretty much a PITA. And unless you've done a bunch of them, better have an armorer's manual handy when tackling a Beretta. IMO, of course.


Having worked on S&W Gen 2 & 3 pistols I feel your pain. Whenever possible I stayed FAR away from the internals of the frame. Replacing the Ejector wasn't too bad, but the whole sear group still gives me the willies.

The M&P series is a whole different animal. They did their home work and it isn't bad. The only issues I've experienced has been the original small sear return spring is difficult due to it's small size and my meat hook hands. The trigger return spring can be difficult to snare even with the Apex provided tool, but I made my own tool and it isn't any problem at all now.

I can't speek to the other makes since I had no experiance with them other than simple field stripping.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Texaspoff,

Thanks for posting those...very informative. There is a lot more monkey motion going on in there than I'd have thought.





While the Glock is the king of simplicity, just how complex are the 320 and VP9 as compared to other service pistols which are not Glock? Classic Sig? Beretta? How many of those are suitable for "owner/operator" use v. agency/armorer supported?


Depends upon the skill/courage level of the "owner/operator"......

The bottom line here is, its not rocket science. OEM armorer training is generally not available to nonmilitary/non-LE individuals, so many times we're on our own. If you have the patience and the wallet, you can learn your chosen pistol without a prohibitive amount of effort. But there is usually more than one way to skin the cat. If a part breaks, okay, you gotta replace it. But if you drop the gun in a mud hole, or salt water, etc., you can... usually... handle it by field-stripping, thoroughly rinsing the piece in fresh, clear water, then douching it down COMPLETELY with non-chlorinated brake cleaner. That stuff will displace all of the water/moisture; it will also remove every trace of lubricant, so you must carefuly re-lube the piece and take pains to prevent corrosion. No doubt you will hear all sort of moans and groans about this (using AUTOMOTIVE products in your firearm??? HERESY!!) and other drivel. Take it for what its worth to you. I have done this numerous times, and the only caveat (aside from ensuring that you bought NON-chlorinated product- the chlorinated stuff will attack polymer frames) is beware of plastic parts; as in, don't expose them to the spray. I have done Glock, HK, Walter, S&W, & Ruger polymer frames & pieces/parts with no ill effects.

.

Fully concur. My sentence above was somewhat facetious, which may not have come across.

It seems we are so used to the Glock model of SFA, that it shocks our sensibilities when newer SFAs are more complex than their DA, hammer-fired predecessors.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Since I'd brought up the 250 for comparison:

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufacturers/SigarmsSigSauer-33490/AutoPistols-41939/P250-43398.htm

(from the look of the gripframe, this appears to be the Gen 1, FWIW.)

[JDB]

Having worked on S&W Gen 2 & 3 pistols I feel your pain. Whenever possible I stayed FAR away from the internals of the frame. Replacing the Ejector wasn't too bad, but the whole sear group still gives me the willies.

The M&P series is a whole different animal. They did their home work and it isn't bad. The only issues I've experienced has been the original small sear return spring is difficult due to it's small size and my meat hook hands. The trigger return spring can be difficult to snare even with the Apex provided tool, but I made my own tool and it isn't any problem at all now.

I can't speek to the other makes since I had no experiance with them other than simple field stripping.

I initially found the M&P very frustrating because of the trigger return spring as well. Overall, its pretty simple, but not necessarily easy. The Apex slave pin included in their kits made it much more manageable.

I just converted my P30 V3 to a V0 LEM. That took about 5 hours...but if I did it again, probably 10 minutes. There's like 5 parts to line up with 1 pin. Lining them up wasn't the hard part...figuring out the relationship to the sear and other parts took awhile. Multiple wrong ways to do it. Trial and error. After that though its not hard.

[LSP972]

There's like 5 parts to line up with 1 pin. Lining them up wasn't the hard part...figuring out the relationship to the sear and other parts took awhile. Multiple wrong ways to do it. Trial and error. After that though its not hard.

The trick there is to utilize a 3/32 punch as a slave pin, from the right side.

.

[Jeep]

It seems we are so used to the Glock model of SFA, that it shocks our sensibilities when newer SFAs are more complex than their DA, hammer-fired predecessors.

Which raises a question--is that complexity worth it? Since I have to act as my own armorer, the complexity of these pistols is a big barrier to me adopting them. I am sure that I could master the reassembly with enough time, but why bother when I find Glocks to be perfectly acceptable and and easy to maintain?

For the average shooter, who will never fire a pistol enough to need to detail strip it, those concerns don't matter. But for those of us who need to be able to detail strip our guns, complexity is a bad thing, and my guess is that will keep Glock in business for a long time.

[Sam]

I don't buy the explanation that to get a good trigger out of the box the gun has to be complicated. You may need higher quality control or a few more finishing steps but for a few bucks more Glock could easily produce their guns with a much better trigger from the factory.

[JHC]

I don't buy the explanation that to get a good trigger out of the box the gun has to be complicated. You may need higher quality control or a few more finishing steps but for a few bucks more Glock could easily produce their guns with a much better trigger from the factory.

+1 You can see that checking triggers on a half dozen in the store; from quite good to rough.

I personally count simplicity as a feature.

[Trooper224]

I don't buy the explanation that to get a good trigger out of the box the gun has to be complicated. You may need higher quality control or a few more finishing steps but for a few bucks more Glock could easily produce their guns with a much better trigger from the factory.

In order to get a better trigger on just about any firearm, all you need to do is fire a few thousand rounds through it. Of course, that may impede one's sense of instant gratification and one may have to work a little harder to be a dark force ninja on the 3X5 card.

[Jaywalker]

In order to get a better trigger on just about any firearm, all you need to do is fire a few thousand rounds through it. Of course, that may impede one's sense of instant gratification and one may have to work a little harder to be a dark force ninja on the 3X5 card.

I hear this a lot, but I respectfully disagree. At a dime a round, for two thousand rounds, if you have to pay for your own, that's $200 of substandard practice. Paying part of that, or doing it yourself, makes the practice better and certainly sooner. For me, breaking in a trigger sounds a lot like "fire it a few hundred rounds before you complain about unreliabiliity."

[JHC]

In order to get a better trigger on just about any firearm, all you need to do is fire a few thousand rounds through it. Of course, that may impede one's sense of instant gratification and one may have to work a little harder to be a dark force ninja on the 3X5 card.

I'm doing that now with a 7.25 lb trigger G26. Not just any mind you but BATTLEFIELD GREEN!!! ;) It shoots lights out though.

[Trooper224]

Not just any mind you but BATTLEFIELD GREEN!!! ;)

Well, "color" me impressed. ;)


It shoots lights out though.

Strange how that works. We obsess over take up, reset, pounds on a trigger, yet I've hardly ever seen a modern service pistol with a trigger that was unworkable.

I exasperate quite a few of my shooting buddies when they're upset about the creep in their new blaster's trigger, or the hump in the grip frame that's so un-1911 etc., etc. blah, blah, blah. :o My first question is always, "Have you shot it yet?" Invariably the answer is no. I then repond with something along the lines of, "Then you don't know what you don't know. Go shoot the thing, then talk to me."

[Trooper224]

For me, breaking in a trigger sounds a lot like "fire it a few hundred rounds before you complain about unreliabiliity."

In reality the two couldn't be farther removed. I respectfully counter with this: if you'd quit being so concerned with minutiae and simply go shoot, thereby working the problem instead of creating additional ones in your mind, you'd then realize how unimportant most of this stuff really is.

[Jaywalker]

In reality the two couldn't be farther removed. I respectfully counter with this: if you'd quit being so concerned with minutiae and simply go shoot, thereby working the problem instead of creating additional ones in your mind, you'd then realize how unimportant most of this stuff really is.
As they used to say, "Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly is to the bone." A bad trigger is to the bone. Another aphorism: "Practice doesn't make perfect, but it does make it permanent." Why would I want to practice badly and maybe create a problem if I can cure the situation? This forum makes a religion of not caring about trigger quality, but lord help us if someone admits to using factory sights...

[Trooper224]

As they used to say, "Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly is to the bone." A bad trigger is to the bone. Another aphorism: "Practice doesn't make perfect, but it does make it permanent." Why would I want to practice badly and maybe create a problem if I can cure the situation? This forum makes a religion of not caring about trigger quality, but lord help us if someone admits to using factory sights...

Hey, far be it for me or anyone else to criticize your process. If it works for you then rock on.

[FNFAN]

As they used to say, "Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly is to the bone." A bad trigger is to the bone. Another aphorism: "Practice doesn't make perfect, but it does make it permanent." Why would I want to practice badly and maybe create a problem if I can cure the situation? This forum makes a religion of not caring about trigger quality, but lord help us if someone admits to using factory sights...

Sights affect the ability to properly place your shot consistently, the trigger does not. Even the heaviest NY2 trigger will with practice allow precision -where it drags performance down is in time between rounds going down range. The othe factor regarding leaving the trigger alone is the perception, whether valid or not, that it may affect criminal or civil liability.

[spinmove_]

As they used to say, "Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly is to the bone." A bad trigger is to the bone. Another aphorism: "Practice doesn't make perfect, but it does make it permanent." Why would I want to practice badly and maybe create a problem if I can cure the situation? This forum makes a religion of not caring about trigger quality, but lord help us if someone admits to using factory sights...

I have 3 criteria for sights that go on a gun for self-defense:

1.) Can I see them regardless of what my lighting conditions are?
2.) Are they tough enough to withstand hard abuse and not move?
3.) Does the rear sight allow me to manipulate the pistol one-handed?

If the sights meet all 3 criteria, then I won't touch them. If the gun is not for self-defense use, then I don't care unless I somehow find the sight picture to be outstandingly bad or annoying.

[LSP972]

This forum makes a religion of not caring about trigger quality...

Uh… what??? Guess I've been reading the wrong threads…


.

[Tamara]

This forum makes a religion of not caring about trigger quality...

A search on "rolling break" in quotes gets four pages of returns.

It's interesting the different things that various people think this forum makes a religion of.

[LittleLebowski]

It's interesting the different things that various people think this forum makes a religion of.

Yes, you would think it would be harder to generalize 8,000 gun owners but some here have the knack :D

[45dotACP]

I hear this a lot, but I respectfully disagree. At a dime a round, for two thousand rounds, if you have to pay for your own, that's $200 of substandard practice. Paying part of that, or doing it yourself, makes the practice better and certainly sooner. For me, breaking in a trigger sounds a lot like "fire it a few hundred rounds before you complain about unreliabiliity."
I was always more convinced that it's about the journey. By the time you've put a thousand pratice rounds through the gun, you'll be able to appreciate the better trigger.

I'll be at the range practicing my zen if anyone needs me.

[Gadfly]

if you'd quit being so concerned with minutiae and simply go shoot, thereby working the problem instead of creating additional ones in your mind, you'd then realize how unimportant most of this stuff really is.

I was often over concerned with minutiae. I still am to some extent. Over the years, circumstances have force multiple issued pistols onto me. I had zero input or choice, simply "here is your issued pistol, qualify with it or find a new job". What it taught me was that I can make just about ANY trigger/pistol work if I am forced to. Just drink the kool aid and drive forward. Like Trooper 224 said, most of the details don't matter. Reliability and consistency matter.

Do you think I was happy going from a 1911 in the TCLEOS academy to the 96D in the INS? Nope. But after 14 weeks of basic and about 3,000 rounds, I made the DAO work, and could shoot it pretty damn well. Three years later, they take the 96D and give me an USPc LEM. I re learn that trigger, and finally accept it though I never really like it. Then I get promoted and have to go back to CI school at FLETC. They take the HK and issue me a Glock 19 on day one. So, 12 weeks/3000 rounds and another new trigger. I get out of CI school and DHS has just adopted the 229 DAK. So for the follow up training, the next 14 weeks I get yet another new trigger to learn....

These days, I can shoot just about any gun/trigger/configuration and it just does not matter. Its the archer, not the arrow.

That said I really prefer some guns over other guns (I like the Glock/320, not a big fan of the LEM or M&P). But you can make anything work if you have to.

[Mr_White]

Sights affect the ability to properly place your shot consistently, the trigger does not. Even the heaviest NY2 trigger will with practice allow precision -where it drags performance down is in time between rounds going down range. The othe factor regarding leaving the trigger alone is the perception, whether valid or not, that it may affect criminal or civil liability.

I'm not trying to argue with your statement as far as the importance of sights go, but I think the trigger does also affect the ability to properly place your shot consistently. And one can practice and learn to use annoying or suboptimal sights, just like one can practice to get better in spite of a difficult trigger.

[psalms144.1]

I'm not trying to argue with your statement as far as the importance of sights go, but I think the trigger does also affect the ability to properly place your shot consistently. And one can practice and learn to use annoying or suboptimal sights, just like one can practice to get better in spite of a difficult trigger.When I was young, dumb, and had skills, I won a great number of marksmanship competitions with the one-and-only 1911 in our arms room, a WWII vintage pistol that rattled like a maraca and had vestigial sights. But, thousands and thousands of rounds had given it a trigger to DIE for. Sights were annoying (but my vision was 20/10 then), so I had no problem putting rounds precisely where I wanted them. Didn't hurt that 23 year old hands don't shake, and hadn't suffered from multiple injuries...

I'm of the opinion, personally, that Gadfly is dead on - a dedicated, competent shooter can make ANYTHING work (one of the best shooters I know routinely crushes competitors shooting his issued P229 DAK in 40, a pistol I consider a miserable boat anchor). BUT, some things make it easier to shoot well. There's a reason why the majority of competitive shooting "race guns" are build around the 1911, and it ain't the sights. It's the trigger.

[Trooper224]

About nine years ago, when I transfered to my current assignment, I was issued a P226DAK in .40 S&W the then issued sidearm for the division. I like Sigs but hated the DAK trigger. That was probably my least favorite handgun I've ever spent significant time with, but I made it work as well as anything else. However, I did breath a sigh of relief when it was replaced by the Glock 22 a few years ago. Troopers are like children, you'll give them ice cream and half will bitch that it's cold. I don't know how many times I've stood on a range and listened to troops complain about what they don't have, or what would be better. I've also lost track of the times I've responded with, "How about we stop complaing about what we don't have and never will have and start working the problem?" Never mind the fact that the issue gear is just fine, the issue is typically a lack of competent software not hardware. I suppose this has colored my view of such things.

I have my preferences like everyone else. I won't use a Glock for a bullseye match, or a SIG P210 in an action pistol match. but I've never seen a quality firearm that couldn't be made to work in spite of the small details. It's just not a big deal. In my Monday night bullseye league, we had a shooter who showed up every week or two with a new pistol, or the one from the week before with half the parts replaced. He was an engineer and that didn't help, as they typically don't know when to leave things alone. ( Like another engineer who was having trouble with an S&W revolver he'd just bought. I told him to bring it in the next week and I'd fix it for him. He wound up bringing in a box of parts he couldn't get back together. "I can do it because I'm an engineer and all that.") He finally asked me what he could do to improve. I told him to stop chasing hardware and concentrate on the software. Any of the pistols he'd bought and sold within the last year had been more than adequate for the task, he just needed to pick one and stick with it.

[Jaywalker]

A search on "rolling break" in quotes gets four pages of returns.

It's interesting the different things that various people think this forum makes a religion of.
Yes, in the Church of Sights there is some apostasy.

[PPGMD]

I'm not trying to argue with your statement as far as the importance of sights go, but I think the trigger does also affect the ability to properly place your shot consistently. And one can practice and learn to use annoying or suboptimal sights, just like one can practice to get better in spite of a difficult trigger.

I would argue that trigger control creates more issues than sight alignment. As even a gross errors in sight alignment (like sights all the way to one side) will put shots in an eight inch circle at 5-7 yards.

After you are getting shots in that eight inch circle, than it is time to worry about sight alignment errors.

[Mr_White]

I would argue that trigger control creates more issues than sight alignment. As even a gross errors in sight alignment (like sights all the way to one side) will put shots in an eight inch circle at 5-7 yards.

After you are getting shots in that eight inch circle, than it is time to worry about sight alignment errors.

That's pretty fair, I didn't state that very strongly and I think you are right.

[Tamara]

Yes, in the Church of Sights there is some apostasy.

There's apostasy in the Church of Everything But My Hobby Horse, it would seem. ;)

[Jaywalker]

Without tossing (more?) brickbats I'll agree that with enough practice a determined person with normal dexterity can learn any trigger. I'm also aware people who tote firearms for a living often have little choice in the matter; for flying over North Vietnam the Air Force gave me, a died-in-the-wool 1911/Browning HP guy, a two-inch barreled Smith Model 15, loaded with five chambers (by regulation) of anemic 38 Special hardball. Mortified I was, and ill-prepared, I thought, to walk home from Route Pack 6 after an unscheduled nylon let-down, should one occur. Probably true, but also true that it didn't matter. A friend in just that position used his Smith to keep a NVN farmer from ventilating him with a pitchfork, and the Smith was just fine for that. For a squad with AKs, he'd have put his hands in the air, so firepower or accuracy wasn't strictly needed.

The point I'm trying to make about bad triggers doesn't include those folks who have no choice and whose ammunition practice budget is subsidized. The point is for those of us with a choice; why should we put weeks/months/$ into learning a bad system - trigger, sights, reliability, accuracy, etc., if we can choose a better system and then stick with that?

[LSP972]

The point I'm trying to make about bad triggers doesn't include those folks who have no choice and whose ammunition practice budget is subsidized. The point is for those of us with a choice; why should we put weeks/months/$ into learning a bad system - trigger, sights, reliability, accuracy, etc., if we can choose a better system and then stick with that?

Agreed... but define "better". And that is the sticking point.

For instance, some really like the DAK. I despise that thing... and I was an accomplished trigger-cocking-all-the-time revolver shooter long before I learned how to properly handle a semi-auto. Still, I acknowledge it for what it is, what it was designed to be; a service trigger for semi-trained cops who wouldn't know (nor care about) one type of action from the next; and one that- these non-enthusiast shooters would be less likely to induce a negligent discharge with.

The LEM is basically the same thing... but "better", to ME. For sure, you don't see either being used by top level competitive shooters.

.

[Jaywalker]

Agreed... but define "better". And that is the sticking point.

For instance, some really like the DAK. I despise that thing... and I was an accomplished trigger-cocking-all-the-time revolver shooter long before I learned how to properly handle a semi-auto. Still, I acknowledge it for what it is, what it was designed to be; a service trigger for semi-trained cops who wouldn't know (nor care about) one type of action from the next; and one that- these non-enthusiast shooters would be less likely to induce a negligent discharge with.

The LEM is basically the same thing... but "better", to ME. For sure, you don't see either being used by top level competitive shooters.

.

We have many good choices these days - pick your poison, whatever you think is "good." I suggest that "Put some good sights on the thing and go shoot" is overused, except in the case of obvious-serial-pistol-buyers who squander training another way by too frequent changes. Life's too short to shoot something you hate.