1986 FBI Miami Gun Fight

[SmokeJumper]

I recently read an article in the most recent issue of Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement. One article in particular caught my interest regarding the April 11,1986 FBI gun fight/shootout in Miami, Florida. The article was written by Massad Ayoob after he conducted an interview with the one of the now retired agents that was involved in the gun fight. Many of you know that this incident shaped how law enforcement responded to incidents and how/what type of weapons were carried by law enforcement. With a little more research on the net, I located a podcast from the website : The Proarms Podcast. Ayoob's interview is from Jan 2011 is at the link below.
I though it might be of interest, I found it to be not only interesting, but a good refresher for vehicle take downs, tactics, and mindset to name a few.
http://proarmspodcast.com/2011/01/10/065-an-interview-with-retired-fbi-agent-john-hanlon-on-the-1986-fbi-firefight-in-miami/

[John Hearne]

While Ayoob's article/interview is good and has a few new insights, the best work on the shooting is by French Anderson. For years, his work was distributed freely to folks in the LE world. Paladin Press now publishes his study and it is amazing. Extensive diagrams, good crime scene photos, definitely the definitive work on the topic.

[ToddG]

Ditto John's comment. Dr. Anderson's scientific analysis of the event is considered by most to be the definitive account of that event.

[SmokeJumper]

While Ayoob's article/interview is good and has a few new insights, the best work on the shooting is by French Anderson. For years, his work was distributed freely to folks in the LE world. Paladin Press now publishes his study and it is amazing. Extensive diagrams, good crime scene photos, definitely the definitive work on the topic.

I hadn't heard of this study. Thanks for mentioning it, I'll be checking into right away for some new reading material. Granted that Ayoob's interview and article are nothing revolutionary on this particular incident, I thought it was just interesting to hear the account from one of the agents that was there.

[John Hearne]

I picked up a couple of new points from the Ayoob interview.

First, I did not know that Hanlon was grazed in the head by a .223 round. This was news to me.

Second, I thought Hanlon's comments about the inherent inaccuracy of the J-frame were telling. The J-frame isn't inherently inaccurate but it is difficult to shoot well. I find his comments indicative of a lack of training and tending to blame the equipment for poor performance.

Third, Hanlon addresses whether the Agents involved were serious. Hanlon comments that once they were behind Platt and Matix, they were serious. In my book, the time to get serious is before the confrontation. You get serious by mastering you gear and getting your head straight. The whole "Amateurs train until they get it right. Professionals train until they can't do it wrong."

[Bratch]

John wouldn't ever say so but he does a great job lecturing on several of the pivotal encounters that have shook the training/LE community. I've heard his Newhall lecture a couple times and I am looking forward to hearing his take on Miami this weekend.

[Prdator]

John wouldn't ever say so but he does a great job lecturing on several of the pivotal encounters that have shook the training/LE community. I've heard his Newhall lecture a couple times and I am looking forward to hearing his take on Miami this weekend.

This!!
If you ever get a chance to here Johns presentations do it!! and if you haven't had a chance make one....

[Wayne Dobbs]

I will second that! John put on an excellent presentation over the Miami shootout at the Police Society Tactical Conference this past weekend. I had studied the incident for years, had spent time talking to one of the Bureau agents involved and had been a Task Force Investigator inside the FBI immediately after the incident occurred, so I had a good grasp on it. John expounded even more and brought about an even clearer understanding of some aspects I hadn't known about or considered.

If you get the chance to hear him, don't miss it.

[TR675]

Raising this thread from the dead to point to this link to what is purported to be a vintage internal FBI AAR of this shootout, courtesy of the Forgotten Weapons blog. (http://youtu.be/3pE4XI1dNWk) I've just skipped around in it but it looks to have a recreation of the event and interviews with the survivors.

[LSP972]

a vintage internal FBI AAR of this shootout..

That was indeed an FBI-produced video, for publication... "explaining" what went wrong.

To the day he died, Gordon McNeill maintained that his guys had NOT been "out-gunned".

See John's remarks in post #5; and I'll leave it at that.

.

[charliefox]

When I was in the Academy this was still a very hot topic. Two things came out from our instructors; it wasn't a gun or bullet issue, it was a tactics issue. The other thing was that the FBI is great at doing what they do, but they tend to stumble when it comes to doing the "street" stuff. This was pretty evident in the after action reports when their experts started pointing fingers at the caliber of the weapons used when, as any street copper could see, their tactics were horrible. Why didn't they contact local LE? Why did they try to box in a vehicle with two wanted and known to heavily armed suspects? When the shooting started the issues were magnified - they weren't outgunned, they were out thought. This whole episode changed the tactics and training for a LOT of agencies across the country (it also killed the 9mm for a lot of years in LE holsters) but if history teaches us anything it's that we learn nothing from history...

[JAD]

(it also killed the 9mm for a lot of years in LE holsters) .

Which was a good thing. At the time the Luger was inferior, by a good margin. As a result major cal became cool for a while, then an intermediate cartridge was invented, then 9 bullets got a lot better, and pretty soon the intermediate cartridge will be obsolete. Hakuna matata, and all, but the equipment self flagellation that followed Miami was very good for pistolcraft. Not the whole story, and bad when it was thought of as the whole story, but in itself a good thing.