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View Full Version : I.C.E. Combat Focus Shooting Question



ScotchMan
07-10-2013, 02:33 PM
Hope this is the right forum; I don't see a general purpose forum for training questions.

Rob Pincus is going to be teaching his Combat Focus Shooting two day class near me soon. The last time he was here, to my knowledge, was 2010. I view this as a really great opportunity to get world class training without having to fly somewhere (its about half an hour from my house).

The problem is that its a $500 course, and 800 rounds minimum. The 800 rounds I like, because it speaks to the amount they are squeezing into a two day course. But it does add to the cost. $500 plus 800 rounds is a pretty huge investment.

In the past I have taken NRA Basic Pistol, and I took a first level Defensive Pistol course last year from a local training company. I will be taking a "refresher" course next month. I generally shoot about 100 rounds every month or so to stay proficient, but that is on a static range, and is of limited value (which is why I don't do it a ton). I carry everywhere I can, and practice drawing/dry firing. Just trying to put my experience and budgets into perspective here.

I'm on the fence whether this is a good investment. Nothing to do with the quality of the training which I am sure is superb. I just have a fairly tough time paying the $150 or so for a local training course, $500 seems like a lot. For $550 I could re-take the level one, and take the level two and level three course from my local guys (who I always feel are very very good). That would get me into more advanced material and get me more training time.

Is it worth it? Especially interested in anyone who has taken CFS and can compare it to other training they have taken. I am not going to be one of the guys who goes to all the big shops around the country. This will probably be the only big-name training I do, at least for a long while.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

jetfire
07-10-2013, 02:40 PM
If you were planning on attending some big name training, I would recommend choosing an instructor/school other than Combat Focus Shooting. I'm not going to start some silly instructor drama, but there are duded and schools that are better choices for your money.

VolGrad
07-10-2013, 02:56 PM
If you were planning on attending some big name training, I would recommend choosing an instructor/school other than Combat Focus Shooting. I'm not going to start some silly instructor drama, but there are duded and schools that are better choices for your money.
This.

One thing I'll throw out there is to not get hung up on one particular trainer or training school. Seek training from different folks, even if they are just different local trainers. There is value in differentiated training perspective, experience, and teaching styles. I have seen firsthand folks get hung up on one particular trainer and take multiple (like 3-4+) courses from them. They only learn one trick. Once they start training with other folks they realize the first guy might not have been the omnipotent ninja they first thought he was. He might have been but there is still value in training with different folks.

TR675
07-10-2013, 02:59 PM
If you are going to train with one and only one "big-name" instructor it is hard to beat Tom Givens, who will give you solid tools and drills to improve your shooting skills, diagnose problems with your shooting, and provide solid mindset training based on his former students' numerous real-world shootings.

TR675
07-10-2013, 03:02 PM
One thing I'll throw out there is to not get hung up on one particular trainer or training school. Seek training from different folks, even if they are just different local trainers.

Truth.

It is hard to see how one $500 weekend with a nationally known trainer is better than a bunch of $150 sessions with a competent and reputable local instructor, especially for the average or new shooter.

NickA
07-10-2013, 03:03 PM
If you are going to train with one and only one "big-name" instructor it is hard to beat Tom Givens, who will give you solid tools and drills to improve your shooting skills, diagnose problems with your shooting, and provide solid mindset training based on his former students' numerous real-world shootings.

+1. Even if you have to travel a bit to get to him it will be worth it.

Al T.
07-10-2013, 03:33 PM
I could re-take the level one, and take the level two and level three course from my local guys (who I always feel are very very good).

Not trying to insult you, but how do you know if they are any good? What criteria do you use to determine that? We have a guy about an hour from me, but I'm having a hard time getting a handle on his training resume. That to me is pretty key.

Jay Cunningham
07-10-2013, 03:39 PM
What criteria do you use to determine that? We have a guy about an hour from me, but I'm having a hard time getting a handle on his training resume. That to me is pretty key.

What criteria do you use?

Al T.
07-10-2013, 04:13 PM
Jay, training resume and (hopefully) a personal recommendation. We have yet another guy north of me that meets all the above.

Bigger name trainers, AARs help.

Since I have some small experience with .mil and LE training, I'm not very insistent that someone who is getting my business have those like skills.

I most value someone who can teach as opposed to instruct.

I'm still a noob at the training game. So far, I've taken lessons from Tiger McKee, Givens and Ayoob, to give you an idea of where I'm coming from. :)

Jay Cunningham
07-10-2013, 04:28 PM
How do you define teaching vs. instructing?

BLR
07-10-2013, 04:38 PM
How do you define teaching vs. instructing?

Teach = why

Instruct = how

NETim
07-10-2013, 04:42 PM
If you are going to train with one and only one "big-name" instructor it is hard to beat Tom Givens, who will give you solid tools and drills to improve your shooting skills, diagnose problems with your shooting, and provide solid mindset training based on his former students' numerous real-world shootings.

But Tom is just so hard to get along with!

(Joking of course)

I've had one handgun class with him and attended the Tactical Conference this last year (Feb/March? I forget now.)

Anyway his class is excellent and provides a very solid foundation.

jlw
07-10-2013, 05:58 PM
First, I want to say something nice: Mr. Pincus has a really nice beard.

I always thought Mr. Pincus was, very similar to Mr. Ayoob in this one regard, a guy who was pilloried about the internet for any number of reasons. He was the keynote speaker at an instructor's conference that I attended last year. I very much wanted to get a firsthand look at his material so that I could evaluate it simply for the material and without the noise.

Now for my second nice thing: He said some things in his presentation on divided attention drills that I thought were good material.

Third nice thing: When Mr. Pincus wasn't teaching, he attended other classes as a student and actively took notes, and he was approachable during breaks to anyone who wanted to speak with him.

Unfortunately, I did not get one of the slots for the range portion of the class. There was an incident on the range that was personality driven.

Based on that incident and a few other things that occurred since then I won't be personally spending any training dollars with him or sending any of our personnel to train with him. I do not think that someone choosing to do so is wasting time and money. There will be a few nuggets of worthwhile information. I can't speak firsthand to his teaching of technique on the range. A few friends that had slot in the range session termed it as "alright".

Al T.
07-10-2013, 07:20 PM
How do you define teaching vs. instructing?

I can instruct about anything if I have a lesson plan. A teacher doesn't only instruct, but understands the backstory of why and how. In addition, the teacher can suggest various alternatives to get the student to have a "lightbulb" moment.

TLG got me sorted out and moving in the right direction in this thread two years ago:

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1589-Working-with-a-stubborn-student-question

rob_s
07-10-2013, 08:28 PM
Hope this is the right forum; I don't see a general purpose forum for training questions.

Rob Pincus is going to be teaching his Combat Focus Shooting two day class near me soon. The last time he was here, to my knowledge, was 2010. I view this as a really great opportunity to get world class training without having to fly somewhere (its about half an hour from my house).

The problem is that its a $500 course, and 800 rounds minimum. The 800 rounds I like, because it speaks to the amount they are squeezing into a two day course. But it does add to the cost. $500 plus 800 rounds is a pretty huge investment.

In the past I have taken NRA Basic Pistol, and I took a first level Defensive Pistol course last year from a local training company. I will be taking a "refresher" course next month. I generally shoot about 100 rounds every month or so to stay proficient, but that is on a static range, and is of limited value (which is why I don't do it a ton). I carry everywhere I can, and practice drawing/dry firing. Just trying to put my experience and budgets into perspective here.

I'm on the fence whether this is a good investment. Nothing to do with the quality of the training which I am sure is superb. I just have a fairly tough time paying the $150 or so for a local training course, $500 seems like a lot. For $550 I could re-take the level one, and take the level two and level three course from my local guys (who I always feel are very very good). That would get me into more advanced material and get me more training time.

Is it worth it? Especially interested in anyone who has taken CFS and can compare it to other training they have taken. I am not going to be one of the guys who goes to all the big shops around the country. This will probably be the only big-name training I do, at least for a long while.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

How did you choose this instructor for your first multi-day course?

Josh Runkle
07-10-2013, 08:36 PM
I have taken combat focus shooting, advanced pistol handling and combat focus shooting instructor - all from Rob Pincus. I took them all when I was very "green" as a shooter (had been shooting once a month or so for about 7 years, and taken a handful of NRA instructor courses, CCW, local defensive courses, etc at the time). I was practically brand new as an instructor. I'd taught like 3 CCW courses at the time...

I say all this to say that at the time I took all of that, I knew next to nothing. I found Pincus's courses to be flush with information...but the reality is that The reason I thought he was full of information was simply because I was not.

On the positive side, he truly is a person who believes in independent evaluation, constantly growing, evolving and changing. He perhaps inspired me to become the same way about my shooting. I took notes and wrote down about 10-15 books to read and several instructors he recommended training with...

Unfortunately...reading those awesome books inspired me to continue learning and continue reading and continue taking those classes from other big-name instructors, and I came to see a lot of flaws in some of his arguments and beliefs about shooting, defensive mindset, etc. This is not something exclusive to him. I feel that way about many big name instructors...no one has the perfect way of doing something.

I came to see things like the Balance of Speed and Accuracy as new ways of thinking at first, and then I was challenged by another instructor I often train with who said..."Why can't you shoot at your max speed and still get really good accuracy?" I didn't realize that Pincus was in a way a crutch, because I didn't realize that most things that aren't possible for the average shooter, law enforcement/military member are possible for anyone who is willing to do a tiny bit of training. And as you constantly train, you are training your body new things it will do under stress...you don't have to always revert back to "what the body does naturally". If you say "think fast" and chuck a ball at a child's face, he won't be afraid, he'll get hit. Then, the next time, he'll be afraid...he will, the next time confronted, have a startle-flinch response, and react to mitigate damage from the ball that is incoming. Pincus teaches to use those natural responses and shoot in a similar method to what you already do in fear and under stress. But...what about the professional baseball player who you yell "think fast" and chuck a ball at? He won't startle, he won't flinch, he'll simply react to catch the ball. In this same manner, I think Pincus is onto something...until you evolve beyond it. If you shoot every day, the rules of stress and fear still apply, but less and less. It also depends on how realistic your training is. It's equally unrealistic to shoot non-moving cardboard cutouts all day and mistake that for the real thing.


At that time, where I was in my shooting abilities...if I could do it all over again, I absolutely would. Why? Because I knew NOTHING at the time. If today, however, someone told me he was hosting a free class, I probably wouldn't waste the ammo on it. I don't say that at all as a slander against him, I just feel that I have read all of his books, taken a few of his classes, watched many, many, many videos of his, and I still read or watch something from him probably once a week (sometimes I agree with him, sometimes I don't). I say that it would be a waste of time for me simply because I'm very up to date on what he's teaching. There's no "nuggets" I feel I could hope to gleam. (Unless he taught something untraditional like explosive entry, or mechanical breaching or something)

Many people on this website don't agree with the specifics of what he teaches, but if it's the thing that spurs you on to be a better shooter, and encourages you to independently seek out your own answers, then how can it be bad?

If, on the other hand, you look at it as an "investment", you would be a lot better off spending the money going through some basic "fundamentals" courses over and over again until you have those hammered out. I would recommend something like a VSM course. Very "entry" level, cheap, low round count, and the ability to take 4-5 for the same cost as a pincus course, and you might get just as much out of them.

Shooting is a ridiculously expensive sport/hobby/recreation/practice. 800 rounds is very expensive for one person, perhaps several months worth of ammo, and to someone else it is called "Tuesday". The regularity with which you practice may also change your shooting habits/practices. I would very much recommend a Pincus course if you plan on shooting once a month or less, something like VSM courses if you shoot once a week, and something entirely different of you shoot every day.

VolGrad
07-11-2013, 05:32 AM
........
There was so much good stuff in this post I couldn't even choose which parts to quote.

NickA
07-11-2013, 06:21 AM
There was so much good stuff in this post I couldn't even choose which parts to quote.

No kidding.
That was very insightful josh, thanks for writing it out.

zacbol
07-12-2013, 02:07 PM
This.

One thing I'll throw out there is to not get hung up on one particular trainer or training school. Seek training from different folks, even if they are just different local trainers. There is value in differentiated training perspective, experience, and teaching styles. I have seen firsthand folks get hung up on one particular trainer and take multiple (like 3-4+) courses from them. They only learn one trick. Once they start training with other folks they realize the first guy might not have been the omnipotent ninja they first thought he was. He might have been but there is still value in training with different folks.
If I can offer a counterpoint, I think this makes sense for someone who has a good baseline, but for someone just starting out, I think it's almost better to stick with one school or person.

Sure, you might miss out on the single *best* way but if the school/instructor is any good you will have a unified approach into which they've put a lot of thought and get to a point where you have a baseline against which you can meaningful evaluate the other, often contradictory techniques and advice you learn from others. This certainly doesn't mean you need to regard the instructor you choose as infallible, just that you're admitting he has probably been at this longer and tried more things than you have. Your ultimate destination may be different, but it helps provide a known starting point.

Without this baseline, I think it's very easy as you go to one instructor after another of randomly changing what you're doing without really critically evaluating it and synthesizing it into a holistic approach. You never give one set of principles a change, it's like doing a scientific study and changing a bunch of variables all at once without any kind of control group.

John Ralston
07-12-2013, 02:36 PM
My 2 cents...

Do you like what you see of his snippets on TV (Shooting Gallery, Best Defense, etc)? If you do, maybe it's worth it for YOU. Have you checked out his Youtube channel to see if the stuff he talks about is what you want to learn?

Personally, I have seen many instructors on TV that I know I would personally avoid. I don't care for their attitude on TV, so why would I train with them? I have also seen some techniques that I personally question on shows...do I want to learn that?

If you can't justify the $$$, I would move on.

Would I pay that much to take AFHF? Yeah, I would (assuming it was within driving distance), I have paid that much for Larry Vickers and Redback One and thought it money well spent. You just have to weigh the cost/benefit for YOU.

JJN
07-13-2013, 04:50 PM
You should watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsCU5gRxAxE. I think it was discussed at length somewhere here. I realize we all have our blind spots, but this bordered on satire.

jlw
07-13-2013, 05:09 PM
You should watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsCU5gRxAxE. I think it was discussed at length somewhere here. I realize we all have our blind spots, but this bordered on satire.

All those screaming, "Use the slide stop lever!!" raise your hand.

Wendell
07-13-2013, 05:53 PM
You should watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsCU5gRxAxE.

http://youtu.be/nKVRC2BNi00?t=36m46s

Tamara
07-14-2013, 09:58 AM
I think it was discussed at length somewhere here.

Riverdance (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?7946-Using-the-Foot-to-Drop-the-Slide&p=132321&viewfull=1#post132321)! :D

cmoore
07-14-2013, 10:31 AM
If you are going to train with one and only one "big-name" instructor it is hard to beat Tom Givens, who will give you solid tools and drills to improve your shooting skills, diagnose problems with your shooting, and provide solid mindset training based on his former students' numerous real-world shootings.

Excellent recommendation. Tom Givens is an outstanding instructor with decades of street experience who focuses his training towards a civilian who carries a concealed handgun for defense.

If you are interested in being a SWAT or SOF guy, there are other trainers I would recommend. If you are interested in being a competition shooter, there are yet again other trainers I would recommend.

Don't let marketing hype or some trainer's former occupation overly influence your trainer/course selection. Focus on the course content, the instructor's reputation as an excellent and effective trainer and what is meaningful to you and your intended handgun use.

SecondsCount
07-15-2013, 12:33 AM
Hope this is the right forum; I don't see a general purpose forum for training questions.

Rob Pincus is going to be teaching his Combat Focus Shooting two day class near me soon.

...

Last year I had the opportunity to take an introductory class taught by a Combat Focus instructor for free and went.

It really wasn't about shooting better but shooting fast, and most of the shooting was at three yards at a large black square that was roughly 8" in size from what I remember. There was nothing mentioned about drawing, tracking the front sight, or recoil management. They did correct a couple students grips who were using a variant of the cup and saucer method.

They were emphatic about not using the slide lock when reloading and were constantly hammering the students about never looking at the gun, especially during a reload or when holstering.

The drills weren't bad from what I remember but it really lacked on teaching the fundamentals which some of the students could have really used.

Overall, if I had paid $500 for this class, I would have been very disappointed.

Sparks2112
07-15-2013, 06:23 AM
You should watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsCU5gRxAxE. I think it was discussed at length somewhere here. I realize we all have our blind spots, but this bordered on satire.

He's coming on the show, and I will ask him about this.

Dr. No
07-15-2013, 07:04 AM
... most of the shooting was at three yards at a large black square that was roughly 8" in size from what I remember.

They were emphatic about not using the slide lock when reloading and were constantly hammering the students about never looking at the gun, especially during a reload or when holstering.



Just .... wow.

ScotchMan
07-16-2013, 08:20 AM
Thanks for the excellent replies everyone. I do recall reading a review of CFS where they mentioned he never covered fundamentals because he said "you just figure it out". I found that a bit strange. But I think I have the fundamentals, so that might be OK for me.

What I have decided is not to take the course, but to branch out from the instructor(s) I have taken classes from in the past. I asked this same question locally, and got similar answers; that it is excellent training but expensive for what it is. And that I could get more for my money with multiple courses from local guys. I got some good recommendations for groups that might be better, and are different, then those I've worked with before.

I have taken training in the past, so I am not clueless. I seem to always be the best shooter out of the group for what that's worth. What I really want to get into is a more intense training class where I can really push myself. In the level 1 defensive pistol course I took last, the first 3/4 of the day was review for me, and only at the very end, when we combined shooting while moving, reloads, verbal commands, cover, etc, did I feel like I was pushing myself. Standing still and shooting at cardboard while focusing on the front site...I'm good to go.

When I looked into other schools, I was told I had to start over with their level 1 course, that they didn't accept anyone else's as a prerequisite. That kind of turned me off, since I really wanted to push myself with something more advanced. Asking around though, I've been told that I will learn a lot even in the level 1 course, because it is very different than what I've taken. This would seem to lend credibility to the argument to take classes from a lot of different people.

Gonna pass on the Pincus course this time, and try to get into the level 1 course from these other guys. Thanks again for the responses.

rob_s
07-16-2013, 01:35 PM
Do you do any competition shooting? it's a great way to assess where you really stand outside the classes you're taking now.

Wendell
07-16-2013, 02:46 PM
...What I really want to get into is a more intense training class where I can really push myself. In the level 1 defensive pistol course I took last, the first 3/4 of the day was review for me, and only at the very end, when we combined shooting while moving, reloads, verbal commands, cover, etc, did I feel like I was pushing myself. Standing still and shooting at cardboard while focusing on the front site...I'm good to go...

It sounds to me as though you're ready for force-on-force.

TR675
07-16-2013, 03:16 PM
Sounds like you're ready for Southnarc's TNMPSR* class.

*Ten Naked Man Prison Shower Rape

Josh Runkle
07-16-2013, 03:45 PM
Thanks for the excellent replies everyone. I do recall reading a review of CFS where they mentioned he never covered fundamentals because he said "you just figure it out". I found that a bit strange. But I think I have the fundamentals, so that might be OK for me.

What I have decided is not to take the course, but to branch out from the instructor(s) I have taken classes from in the past. I asked this same question locally, and got similar answers; that it is excellent training but expensive for what it is. And that I could get more for my money with multiple courses from local guys. I got some good recommendations for groups that might be better, and are different, then those I've worked with before.

I have taken training in the past, so I am not clueless. I seem to always be the best shooter out of the group for what that's worth. What I really want to get into is a more intense training class where I can really push myself. In the level 1 defensive pistol course I took last, the first 3/4 of the day was review for me, and only at the very end, when we combined shooting while moving, reloads, verbal commands, cover, etc, did I feel like I was pushing myself. Standing still and shooting at cardboard while focusing on the front site...I'm good to go.

When I looked into other schools, I was told I had to start over with their level 1 course, that they didn't accept anyone else's as a prerequisite. That kind of turned me off, since I really wanted to push myself with something more advanced. Asking around though, I've been told that I will learn a lot even in the level 1 course, because it is very different than what I've taken. This would seem to lend credibility to the argument to take classes from a lot of different people.

Gonna pass on the Pincus course this time, and try to get into the level 1 course from these other guys. Thanks again for the responses.

What state are you in?

ScotchMan
07-17-2013, 08:46 AM
I used to do a CCW shoot that we have weekly, it looks like competition but its set up more to be training. Two different scenarios each week with shoot/no-shoots, use of cover mandatory, tactical reloads, and other "real world" complications (like have to drag a dummy through the course to simulate a wounded bystander).

I haven't been in a while, I've had another commitment on that night. Don't do any other competition.

I live in NY state.

As for the Ten Naked Man Prison Shower Rape class, here we just call that "being a gun owner in NY state".

ToddG
07-17-2013, 09:02 AM
I used to do a CCW shoot that we have weekly, it looks like competition but its set up more to be training. Two different scenarios each week with shoot/no-shoots, use of cover mandatory, tactical reloads, and other "real world" complications (like have to drag a dummy through the course to simulate a wounded bystander).

Apologies in advance for the thread jack, but I'd argue the number of times a CCW holder has had to (a) perform a "tactical" reload or (b) drag a wounded bystander to safety during an ongoing exchange of gunfire may in fact be zero.

Sparks2112
07-17-2013, 09:48 PM
Apologies in advance for the thread jack, but I'd argue the number of times a CCW holder has had to (a) perform a "tactical" reload or (b) drag a wounded bystander to safety during an ongoing exchange of gunfire may in fact be zero.

But practicing getting your gun out from the surrender position and dumping 3-5 rounds from #2 into a target 3-6 feet away isn't cool. ;)