STI GP6 9mm

[cclaxton]

Anyone own one of these? Anyone with experience using them in competition?
It appears to be discontinued model...anyone know why? Any problem getting mags for it?

I saw a used one for sale...looks and feels great...fantastic trigger/reset.

CC

[BLR]

I had one. I miss it. Well, as much as one can miss a plastic pistol ;)

IIRC, the weak link was the hammer. Can't verify that, mine didn't break in the less than 1k I had it.

Ergonomics - wonderful.

Accuracy - stellar

I think I have a half dozen mags laying around somewhere. I'll pay them forward to you, assuming I have/can find them.

[LittleLebowski]

I shot one once and aside from the plethora of sharp edges, was very impressed. Amazing trigger and reset.

[Kyle Reese]

Dawson Precision carries the magazines....

http://www.dawsonprecision.com/CategoryProductList.jsp?cat=MAGAZINE+COMPLETE:STI% 2FSV+HiCap

[LHS]

Century's importing them now as the "Grand Power K100 MK7", and J&G has them for about $430 new. I shot a mag through one a few weeks ago (I have a buddy who insists on buying every weird European blaster that hits the market), it was pleasant, but I'm leery of anything with a rotating barrel.

[Tamara]

I'm leery of anything with a rotating barrel.

Word. The fact that the rotating barrel has been The Next Big Thing since, oh, 1907 or thereabouts makes me suspect that any engineer putting one in a gun today is being different just for the sake of being different. :confused:

[BLR]

Huh. Ever since the Colt 2000, I've been enamored with rotating barrels.....

[Tamara]

Huh. Ever since the Colt 2000, I've been enamored with rotating barrels.....

Those guns were shoddily-built, inaccurate, rushed-to-market, product-recalled, malfunction-and-breakage-prone abortions.

I was there*, man. God, what a fiasco those were. They went to CDNN for pennies on the dollar in practically record time.

(*And by "there" I mean dealing with pissed off customers because my boss had loaded us down with a bunch of 'em.)

[LittleLebowski]

Tam has gun saleswoman PTSD........

[BLR]

LOL

Tam, you walked right into that.... :cool:

[Tamara]

Tam has gun saleswoman PTSD........

1632

For realz, yo.

[LSP972]

Those guns were shoddily-built, inaccurate, rushed-to-market, product-recalled, malfunction-and-breakage-prone abortions.



But, but... a HIGHLY respected 'gunwriter' wrote, in a premier magazine, "I predict we'll be seeing a lot of these guns in police holsters."

First time I saw one of those abortions was at the PPC Nationals; the first year they were back in Jackson after the Des Moines experiment, I think. The Colt factory guys were trying to put their company face on, but you could tell... they knew.

.

[ToddG]

First time I saw one of those abortions was at the PPC Nationals; the first year they were back in Jackson after the Des Moines experiment, I think. The Colt factory guys were trying to put their company face on, but you could tell... they knew.

I did the first formal agency demo & evaluation with the SIG P250 ... that sucked.

[BLR]

I did the first formal agency demo & evaluation with the SIG P250 ... that sucked.

I really wanted to like that gun...as much as one can like a souless sidearm. ;)

[ToddG]

I really wanted to like that gun...as much as one can like a souless sidearm. ;)

I really wanted that gun to be likable ... as much as one can want his employer's future to have a future. :cool:

[cclaxton]

Thanks for the comments.
So, in summary, no one has anything bad to say about the GP6, except that it has a rotating barrel, and previous models of guns with rotating barrels didn't turn out very well. But nobody is really raving about it, either.

Maybe I will let it go...saw a used one for sale with BladeTech holster, mag pouches, 6 mags, and looked to be in good shape for $675.

Thanks
CC

[JonInWA]

Thanks for the comments.
So, in summary, no one has anything bad to say about the GP6, except that it has a rotating barrel, and previous models of guns with rotating barrels didn't turn out very well. But nobody is really raving about it, either.

Maybe I will let it go...saw a used one for sale with BladeTech holster, mag pouches, 6 mags, and looked to be in good shape for $675.

Thanks
CC


Actually, there were at least two pistols, and possibly a third that had rotating barrels that achieved credible performances-The Steyr-Hahn 1912 amassed a very good reputation in WWI, and saw limited use by the German military in WWII when re-chambered from 9mm Steryr to 9mm Parabellum (probably with second-tier troops/police)-it's primary drawback is that reloads were accomplished via stripper clip as opposed to a detachable box magazine; I also seem to recall that surviving examples need to be gone over carefully by a competant gunsmith prior to using, as they're somewhat susceptible to tolerance-stacking discharges, i.e., when a round is chambered, and the safety is placed "on" and a "boom" results...

The second is the French MAB P.15, somewhat of a post-WWII Francophilistic version of the FN Hi Power. I'm not sure what advantages it really achieved over, say, a Hi-Power (other than, of course, being a French pistol made in France, which at the time may have been an implicit requirement after using various Walthers and pre-war French smaller-caliber pistols...) Eventually MAB went away, and France went to a combination of locally license-produced Beretta 92s, SIG-Sauer Sigpro 2022s, and Glock 17 and 26s for their military and police.

The third, albeit questionable pistol is the Mexican Obregon, a rotating-barrel variant based on...wait for it...the ubiquitous 1911. They were produced and fielded in very small numbers, so how good they really were probably has never been established.

And yes, of course there subsequently were the Colt 2000/Beretta{and currently Stoeger} Cougar/Beretta PX4 Storm ....

While I've never personally shot, or even handled the GP6, all reports I've heard of them were actually pretty favorable; I had a detailed discussion with gunwriter Duane Thomas subsequent to his evaluation of one that he tested for an article, and while he wasn't exactly over the moon over it, he wasn't unimpressed with it either-it performed more than adequately for him as I recall.

For me, it's kind of an at the end of the day, what would it do for me that my Glocks (or substitute your platform of choice) don't? (Opposed to having esoteric gun bragging rights, of course)

Best, Jon

[ToddG]

My only experience with rotating barrel guns comes from the Cougar and the PX4.

Both were very easy guns to shoot well. Both had significant reliability issues that got worse as the guns became dirty or weren't very precisely lubricated.

[Tamara]

For me, it's kind of an at the end of the day, what would it do for me that my Glocks (or substitute your platform of choice) don't? (Opposed to having esoteric gun bragging rights, of course)

1634

Hipster. ;)

(And I say that as maybe the only person in my zip code who owns, not one, but two Frommer Stops. :D )

[JonInWA]

1634

Hipster. ;)

But only if you have the ink to match, of course...:cool:

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

My only experience with rotating barrel guns comes from the Cougar and the PX4.

Both were very easy guns to shoot well. Both had significant reliability issues that got worse as the guns became dirty or weren't very precisely lubricated.

As well as the mal/un-performing extractor issues with the .357 SIG Cougar 8357 variant....which as we've discussed previously, was very disappointing to me personally, because potentially the .357 SIG cartridge and the Cougar's ergos and rotating barrel could have been a great combo.

Best, Jon

[JAD]

Hipster. ;))

1635

[LHS]

Maybe I will let it go...saw a used one for sale with BladeTech holster, mag pouches, 6 mags, and looked to be in good shape for $675.


$675? Like I said, street price on the brand new ones is about $430. Are 4 mags, a holster and mag pouches worth $245?

[will_1400]

1634

Hipster. ;)

(And I say that as maybe the only person in my zip code who owns, not one, but two Frommer Stops. :D )

What about a Jericho 941 in .41 AE? :p

[Tamara]

What about a Jericho 941 in .41 AE? :p

Dude, I have actually carried a TZ-75 in .41AE. I am absolutely a recovering gun hipster. :D

[Tamara]

Are 4 mags, a holster and mag pouches worth $245?

Depends on how much it costs to get mags shipped from Slovakia and a holster custom made. :D

[LSP972]

I did the first formal agency demo & evaluation with the SIG P250 ... that sucked.

I had just retired, and gone to work at the local sheriff's office as a range rat, when the P250 appeared. My old agency was still using Sigs, although those days were numbered, and my new employer was issuing DAK P226Rs to the road deputies. In fact, all of those pistols had just been returned to the department, after getting new frames (the ones that said "Frame made in Germany"). But that's another story...

Anyway, the Sig rep, a good old boy if one ever drew breath, dropped a P250 off with us with little comment, asking that we give it a try. We all shot it, saw nothing drastically wrong with it (but who wouldn't, compared to that dreadful DAK???), and actually thought the idea/concept was ingenious. But the sheriff was in NO mood to entertain new pistols in general, and ANY Sigs in particular, after the massive failure of those new P226Rs. So we yawned and handed it back to him, with a polite thanks, on his next visit.

Later, we heard about all the problems/issues with the P250, and collectively wiped our brows.

I can only imagine the feeling of being in a position to be obligated to promote a product you KNOW has serious fleas. We're glad you escaped that trap...

.

[ToddG]

I can only imagine the feeling of being in a position to be obligated to promote a product you KNOW has serious fleas. We're glad you escaped that trap...

I didn't "escape" so much as I was "ejected" ... in no small part because I wasn't very good at filtering what information customers should and shouldn't be given.

[Sparks2112]

I didn't "escape" so much as I was "ejected" ... in no small part because I wasn't very good at filtering what information customers should and shouldn't be given.

Our similarities are frightening sometimes.

[pangloss]

I've been curious about the GP6 since they came out, but I've sworn off buying guns to satisfy curiosity. (I do have a Steyr GB with ONE magazine though.)

[Tamara]

(I do have a Steyr GB with ONE magazine though.)

Steyr GB, eh?

1638

:D

[pangloss]

Steyr GB, eh?

1638

:D

Yep. And I almost bought a Wilson ADP once too. I can't remember what the ADP was originally marketed as (though certainly a post-P7 design). Fortunately I chose the prosaic G26 instead.

[LHS]

Steyr GB, eh?

1638

:D

Please, I was into gas-delayed blowback before the GB too. My carry piece is a Volkspistole.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_md90kfRqeR1rk9wf0o1_r1_500.jpg

[LittleLebowski]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZEdDMQZaCU

[JV_]

Yep. And I almost bought a Wilson ADP once too. I can't remember what the ADP was originally marketed asHeritage Stealth

[Tamara]

Heritage Stealth

Yup. Not exactly Wilson Wombat's finest hour, IMO. Watching them try to market that thing as a silk purse was... entertaining, however.

[LSP972]

I didn't "escape" so much as I was "ejected" ... in no small part because I wasn't very good at filtering what information customers should and shouldn't be given.

I heard that another highly-qualified Sig factory guy left over his refusal to sugar-coat the P290's issues.

On THAT note... was Reiner Alfredson still employed at Sig when you were there? He was a sales guy, not a 'techie'.

.

[ToddG]

I heard that another highly-qualified Sig factory guy left over his refusal to sugar-coat the P290's issues.

To the best of my knowledge, within five years of my termination every single person in the entire LE/mil "division" of SIG either quit or got fired. While turnover in the industry isn't uncommon, a complete flip of an entire team is -- especially a team dealing with one of the company's most lucrative markets.


On THAT note... was Reiner Alfredson still employed at Sig when you were there? He was a sales guy, not a 'techie'.

If he was, I don't recall the name. I was there late '02 to late '07.

[BigT]

Heritage Stealth

And before that just the ADP. Its a South African design named after the designers initials Alex Du Plessis. Interestingly (let me get my geek on too) He worked on a prototype in a calibre called 45 ADP based on a shortened ACP (shorter even than the 45HP IIRC) case a few years before GAP came to market.

He was (once again IIRC) involved with the KZ45 project as well.

[Slavex]

I like my Cougar 8045, mostly because it's the only one in Canada (legally).
Regarding the GP6, there a number of them up here that guys run in IPSC, and they swear by them. They do have a great trigger and great reset, and are damn accurate. However, they are, in my opinion, ugly as sin. And don't feel good in the hand, with limited options to correct this. For the money a CZ, Glock, or S&W would all be better choices. For a bit more money an HK (ok a lot more money, at least up here).
Up here we have the K100 Excalibur edition which is proving to be quite popular as well, and it is supposedly a massive improvement on the GP6. I'll T&E'ing one along with a few other guys sometimes in October. I'll put a post up here after.

[TNK]

STI GP6. I had one in 2008. At round count 1000, it came apart while shooting it. The slide stop popped out from the frame. I sent it back to STI for repairs. It promptly came back “repaired,” but I did not trust it. I sold it. The guy who bought it had it break apart in his hands while he was shooting it. The frame cracked. STI replaced it, and he sold it. We have not heard anything about it since that time, and we are happy the thing is gone from our lives.

It does not surprise me to see that STI stopped selling the GP6. As I understand it, STI imported and assembled the pistol here to fashion it for the American market. Thus the “GP6” was not necessarily the same pistol (the Grand Power K100) that is sold in Europe or Canada.

The actual Grand Power K100 is being imported into the U.S. now. Its price is lower than what I paid for the GP6. While I am curious, I have sworn off buying offbeat guns to see how they run. I will now stick with Sig/HK/Beretta.

[LSP972]

If he was, I don't recall the name. I was there late '02 to late '07.

We dealt with him twelve or so years prior to your time. He either moved on to greener pastures, where his polished skills at spreading bovine fecal matter could be more appreciated... or maybe they just ran him off.

He was a smooth salesman/rep, but my meter began twitching the first day I met him. My boss was not so... alert.

He didn't do us any serious damage, thank goodness.

.

[BigT]

Just picked up a Grand Power X Calibur as my new IPSC Production gun. will be able to give an update of performance as soon as my license comes through.

[Slavex]

Our T&E Excalibur is on hold right for the time being, not sure why, but once it lands I'll be posting a review.
I'm still not loving the look, and having watched a good friend break two of the K100s at a recent match (hammers broke in both guns), not sure I could ever trust them for anything.

[LHS]

1634

Hipster. ;)

(And I say that as maybe the only person in my zip code who owns, not one, but two Frommer Stops. :D )

On a related note, why did the hipster burn his tongue? Because he drank coffee before it was cool.

[BigT]

As promised my feed back on the X Calibur.

Please bear in mind I have zero interest in playing games with my carry gear. I play games to (try) win. So this gun is to me a sports bat. It has zero place in my HD/Zombie apocalypse/SHTF arsenal. This gun goes to range unloaded gets put into a CR speed rig ,shot and then put back into its box.

That at all said it's the best shooting pistol I have ever owned. It really allows me to make shots I would struggle with with any of my other pistols. It's proven very accurate. I have spent lots of time bench resting it. But it was happily giving 2-2.5" groups when I sighted it in. I'm pretty sure that a shooter with a longer concentration span than I do could get even better groups.

Trigger is exceptional. DA is long but very smooth. SA has a short light rolling break that to me is , subjectively , perfect.

Its very soft shooting. With almost no muzzle flip at all. It has a totally different recoil impulse to its greatest rival , the SP01 Shadow. It's another one of those subjective things. The Shadow has a faster snap the X Calibur a soft push. But without ever giving me the sensation of waiting for it to cycle like my USP does on some shots. A peculiar characteristic is that for many shooters , unlike most other nines, it's softer shooting with lighter bullets than heavier ones. I'm running 124gr loads and I've even considering playing with some 115gr loads.

Mag well is huge. It takes effort to fumble a reload.

It it does like to be run wet. It doesn't feed everything like my USP but runs exceptionally well if reasonable care is taken when reloading. I think the very light recoil spring doesn't take well to rounds that haven't been properly sized.

Out the box the sights are excellent. Rear notch is nice and wide. Front sight thin and serrated. I would prefer a plain black front. But the blacked out fibre is working fine in the mean time.

The big cuts in the front of the slide probably make it the easiest production division gun for unloaded starts.

The Shadow is a great gun , but I prefer my X Calibur enough that when offered a straight swap on a brand new Orange Shadow 2012 I chose to keep my X Cal.

[jetfire]

This is the Gran Power or whatever it's called, right? With the rotary lock-up system?

Also, did it really take almost 6 months to get your license through? Yeesh.

[BigT]

This is the Gran Power or whatever it's called, right? With the rotary lock-up system?

Also, did it really take almost 6 months to get your license through? Yeesh.


Yup up the Grand Power X Calibur. With the rotating barrel.


License took took about three months. But fortunately I managed to get it home in about seven weeks on a temporary permit. That said a few year back if you could get a license in a year you were doing well.


Wanted to get a few thousand rounds through it before reporting back. Wanted to get over that new gun 300 rounds flawless internet syndrome.

[jetfire]

Yup up the Grand Power X Calibur. With the rotating barrel.


License took took about three months. But fortunately I managed to get it home in about seven weeks on a temporary permit. That said a few year back if you could get a license in a year you were doing well.


Wanted to get a few thousand rounds through it before reporting back. Wanted to get over that new gun 300 rounds flawless internet syndrome.

Totally understandable. Did you have any issues with not being able to eject a live round easily for unload and show clear?

[BigT]

Totally understandable. Did you have any issues with not being able to eject a live round easily for unload and show clear?


Not once.

[jetfire]

Not once.

Cool. I did with one the STI branded ones, but it might have been because I was...loading long.

YEAAAAHHHHH

[BigT]

The X cal is as different from a Gp6/K100 as a SP01 Shadow is from a normal 75.

[jetfire]

The X cal is as different from a Gp6/K100 as a SP01 Shadow is from a normal 75.

So it's the same gun with some pointless racegun features to make people who can't shoot the stock gun feel better? ;-)

[Slavex]

We had an Xcal out for a test run a few months back. Light trigger with very little reset and super light SA. However the gun we had had a small problem. The safeties hadn't been fitted right by the owner of the gun and if you pushed up on them (they were the big ride em style) while shooting (yes I know, you're supposed to keep them pressed down, I hate manual safeties on handguns), the gun would of course stop. Now comes the neat part, push the safety down and the gun goes bang. Finger nowhere near the trigger, bang. Now I know it's not the manufacturers fault that the gun we were sent was not fitted right, but it still gave me a sour impression of the gun.
In the end, I'd still take a Shadow over one any day. The ECal just didn't feel like it would last very long, I have no empirical evidence to support this, it just felt that way.

[LostDuke]

Occasionally there is a good shooter in my area that shows up with a GP6 and from what I can see the gun runs perfectly in matches, very accurate and fast. Never witnessed an issue, and he tells me he never had any.

How is it possible that this gun has won many matches in Europe and here it is so despised? Is there some sort of bias at play?

[BigT]

We had an Xcal out for a test run a few months back. Light trigger with very little reset and super light SA. However the gun we had had a small problem. The safeties hadn't been fitted right by the owner of the gun and if you pushed up on them (they were the big ride em style) while shooting (yes I know, you're supposed to keep them pressed down, I hate manual safeties on handguns), the gun would of course stop. Now comes the neat part, push the safety down and the gun goes bang. Finger nowhere near the trigger, bang. Now I know it's not the manufacturers fault that the gun we were sent was not fitted right, but it still gave me a sour impression of the gun.
In the end, I'd still take a Shadow over one any day. The ECal just didn't feel like it would last very long, I have no empirical evidence to support this, it just felt that way.


I took the giant safety off the right side of the gun. So I've got the big one on the left cos I've found it a useful tool to build a consistent grip. Right side has the standard safety.


My particular example is only on 4k rounds so I can't comment on long term durability. But there area few K100's here being used as range rentals and apparently holding up well. Mine shows no internal wear at all. Perceived quality is if anything higher than a Shadow to me. But that's all subjective I suppose.

After a buddy got a Shadow Orange 2012 super ninja that had a front sight so short that the POI made the gun totally unusable I try not let little bobbles disturb :)

[jetfire]

I took the giant safety off the right side of the gun. So I've got the big one on the left cos I've found it a useful tool to build a consistent grip. Right side has the standard safety.


My particular example is only on 4k rounds so I can't comment on long term durability. But there area few K100's here being used as range rentals and apparently holding up well. Mine shows no internal wear at all. Perceived quality is if anything higher than a Shadow to me. But that's all subjective I suppose.

After a buddy got a Shadow Orange 2012 super ninja that had a front sight so short that the POI made the gun totally unusable I try not let little bobbles disturb :)

That tears it, if Century ever gets the Gran Powers back in stock, I'm buying one.

[BigT]

That tears it, if Century ever gets the Gran Powers back in stock, I'm buying one.


Rumour has it GP are working on a new US distributor.


This could be complete bollocks , just a rumour I've heard. Could be good for the brand in your market though.

[jetfire]

Rumour has it GP are working on a new US distributor.


This could be complete bollocks , just a rumour I've heard. Could be good for the brand in your market though.

The problem here is the guns suffer from a price point and an image problem. When STI was importing them, people were like "why should I get this instead of a Glock 34?" Remember, USPSA's Production rules don't have that first trigger pull weight requirement that IPSC's do, so DA/SA guns were never really a big deal for Production until very recently. Then when Century started importing them, everything things that Century is garbage, so they didn't really do well there.

[BigT]

The problem here is the guns suffer from a price point and an image problem. When STI was importing them, people were like "why should I get this instead of a Glock 34?" Remember, USPSA's Production rules don't have that first trigger pull weight requirement that IPSC's do, so DA/SA guns were never really a big deal for Production until very recently. Then when Century started importing them, everything things that Century is garbage, so they didn't really do well there.



It would be a pity for them to fail based on crappy marketing.

We obviously shoot IPSC here not USPSA so the TDA guns have gained a solid foothold. At our last nationals all but two of us in my detail were shooting Shadows. Only my X cal and a G17 differed. Though more and more guys are looking at them. Our No2 Production shooter runs one (he's the importer too) which was the only reason I looked at them. Got tired of waiting for my spot on the Shadow back order list to come up. Kinda glad about that now.

[Slavex]

So I had the chance to put a couple hundred rounds of 9mm through another X-Cal today. It came directly from the importers with the huge safeties on it, "wonderful" I thought. And as it turns out, I was right to be wary. During the first mag I had 2 occasions where my big hands over powered my thumb and pushed up on the safeties slightly, resulting in a trigger press and the hammer not falling, however when the safeties were depressed properly again, the hammer dropped, and fired the gun, just as it did with the other gun. I immediately set about doing this on purpose to see if we could replicate it and out of the dozen or so tries the gun fired 8 times. After that it seemed to only drop the hammer when the safeties were depressed after the trigger pulled. To achieve this the safeties could be put on all the way, but just bumped up enough to stop the trigger from working right. You could see the hammer move slightly and then it would fall when the safeties were depressed. As well if the safeties were not in the right spot, you could pull the trigger right through and they'd move allowing the gun to fire. The safeties do not really lock into any position but are easily moved from one to another.
As nice as the gun shoots, I could not in good conscience recommend the pistol to anyone.

[BigT]

Not a problem I've had in five months of a match almost every weekend.

In Production I've never once used my safety so it's stays off.

I run run the big safety left side and standard one right side. Stops my hand getting chewed by the bottom of the big lever.

[jetfire]

So I had the chance to put a couple hundred rounds of 9mm through another X-Cal today. It came directly from the importers with the huge safeties on it, "wonderful" I thought. And as it turns out, I was right to be wary. During the first mag I had 2 occasions where my big hands over powered my thumb and pushed up on the safeties slightly, resulting in a trigger press and the hammer not falling, however when the safeties were depressed properly again, the hammer dropped, and fired the gun, just as it did with the other gun. I immediately set about doing this on purpose to see if we could replicate it and out of the dozen or so tries the gun fired 8 times. After that it seemed to only drop the hammer when the safeties were depressed after the trigger pulled. To achieve this the safeties could be put on all the way, but just bumped up enough to stop the trigger from working right. You could see the hammer move slightly and then it would fall when the safeties were depressed. As well if the safeties were not in the right spot, you could pull the trigger right through and they'd move allowing the gun to fire. The safeties do not really lock into any position but are easily moved from one to another.
As nice as the gun shoots, I could not in good conscience recommend the pistol to anyone.

Sort of related, that's a classic "no-go" issue that you'll see with sloppy home-gunsmith trigger jobs on 1911s. I'd be interested to look at the safety/sear engagement on the GP6/K100 and see what it looks like. They're less than 400 bucks from Gzanders right now, so I could basically order one with "kitten around" money.