Delta Force Rifle Duel

[Drew]

Pistoleros of Preeminence

In the distant future, I will buy an AR-15 style rifle. I write distant as at the rate I purchase other stuff for my guns – I won’t ever save the cash (example: P30 mags at Midwayusa NOW).

Looking at two models that happen to be recommended or marketed by former Delta Force guys. And Delta Force is really cool – at least I imagine them to be.

Considerations-
1. Laziness: The more stuff I don’t have to do (or more accurately, pay someone else to do) to the gun – the better.
2. Price: Ref. para one of this post.

Cut to the chase:

Gun 1: Smith and Wesson M&P15 VTAC
Plug: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blGRU_S8YqQ
Little bit longer barrel. Rails aren’t everywhere to mess up my hands. Honestly – there will be two things on the front of my rifle a) flash-light and b) gangster-grip. But it’s direct impingement – and we know what that means – nasty dirty insides - ugh. Apparently it has a good trigger. Now – the rifle doesn’t come with any sights. None… and that’s a con. I know I am going to have to get optics. But come on.

(http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_766094_-1_757913_757798_757797_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y).

Gun 2: Primary Weapon Systems Mk114

Plug: http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/recomended_equip.htm

It appears that this gun has everything. And it’s a piston. While I haven’t shot any piston-guns, my frustration with the insane amount of cleaning the DI guns has me really interested. My perusing of forums indicate that there are many issues with piston guns though…

(http://primaryweapons.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=178&idcategory=15)

Price Considerations:

1. PWS Mk114 with Mil discount: Approx. $1400 (+shipping, FFL and all that).
2. Smith and Wesson (from Buds LE with S&W Nations Finest Rebate): Approx. $1300 (+shipping, FFL and all that).

Standing by for thoughts, comments.

Thanks
Drew

[Kyle Reese]

A few things here:

DI guns don't need to be cleaned excessively to function in most environments. Wipe off the BCG with a rag, punch the chamber / bore, apply lube and rock on. Cleaning excessively (white glove inspection) serves zero practical purpose. I run my M-4's filthy and sopping with lube, and clean once in a great while. Failures in the M-16 / M-4 type of weapon are most commonly attributed to the following:

Magazines - ensure they work properly in your weapon, and discard any that do not.
Extractor- replace it as needed.
Ammunition- use quality ammunition.
Lubrication- lube, lube, lube an AR.

I didn't come up with the MEAL acronym, BTW. Keep it lubed, conduct maintenance / replace gas rings/springs at the suggested intervals and use quality ammunition and it should mitigate much of the issues that vex owners / end users of the aforementioned carbine.

As for the piston gun, just be aware that there is no real standardization among manufacturers regarding the main parts of these weapons, so if the manufacturer you bought a rifle from goes belly up, it's going to be hard to get that weapon repaired. I've owned and shot piston rifles, and have sold them off. They are heavier and offer no real benefit to me as an end user.

Honestly, if neither rifle gives you the warm & fuzzy, consider an offering from Daniel Defense, Colt, BCM or Noveske.

Probably not the answer you wanted, but there it is.

[Josh Runkle]

A few things here:

DI guns don't need to be cleaned excessively to function in most environments. Wipe off the BCG with a rag, punch the chamber / bore, apply lube and rock on. Cleaning excessively (white glove inspection) serves zero practical purpose. I run my M-4's filthy and sopping with lube, and clean once in a great while. Failures in the M-16 / M-4 type of weapon are most commonly attributed to the following:

Magazines - ensure they work properly in your weapon, and discard any that do not.
Extractor- replace it as needed.
Ammunition- use quality ammunition.
Lubrication- lube, lube, lube an AR.

I didn't come up with the MEAL acronym, BTW. Keep it lubed, conduct maintenance / replace gas rings/springs at the suggested intervals and use quality ammunition and it should mitigate much of the issues that vex owners / end users of the aforementioned carbine.

As for the piston gun, just be aware that there is no real standardization among manufacturers regarding the main parts of these weapons, so if the manufacturer you bought a rifle from goes belly up, it's going to be hard to get that weapon repaired. I've owned and shot piston rifles, and have sold them off. They are heavier and offer no real benefit to me as an end user.

Honestly, if neither rifle gives you the warm & fuzzy, consider an offering from Daniel Defense, Colt, BCM or Noveske.

Probably not the answer you wanted, but there it is.

I second this almost exactly.

[Ga Shooter]

Honestly, if neither rifle gives you the warm & fuzzy, consider an offering from Daniel Defense, Colt, BCM or Noveske.

Probably not the answer you wanted, but there it is.

This.

I personally have sold all but my BCMs and have been extremely happy. No problems of any kind and great CS. The others listed here are great and have been happy with them as well but I stuck with BCM.

[Shellback]

There's also the Daniel Defense Vicker's Tactical limited edition if you want another "Delta approved" option. I've been very happy with several Noveskes I own and I know BCM is very well regarded as well.

GermanSynergy's advice is spot on from my experience as well.

[LittleLebowski]

VTAC.

[orionz06]

The M&P VTAC's linked are not the same. One has the JP tube while the other has the Troy TRX VTAC tube. The latter is much better IMHO.

Otherwise, in the same price range you can piece together a BCM or Daniel Defense.

[LittleLebowski]

Drew, get that "inspection ready with a light coat of CLP" crap out of your head. It took me years to get that crap out of my own head that was put there by the military. Run it wet and dirty and marvel at how well a top notch DI AR can run. PFCs wrenching on precision machined surfaces with steel does FAR more damage than just squirting some more lube on there and running it dirty.

[SecondsCount]

Agreed with most everything already said. DI guns run fine, are simple to clean, and have less to go wrong with them.

[NickDrak]

Out of the two rifles you mentioned I would choose the S&W VTAC. S&W has been dragging on releasing the newer version shown in the youtube link you posted, and I doubt that version will ever see the light of day considering the direction they have recently taken their M&P15 (AR) line. Its a shame because that new VTAC version with the midlength 1/8 twist, fluted barrel and the newer style TRX handguard is a really well spec'ed rifle.

I would instead look at BCM's (Bravo Co.) custom upper receiver offerings and add a complete BCM, LMT or Daniel Defense lower receiver with the stock & grip you want and call it a day.

I would also agree with everything that GermanSynergy posted above.

[YVK]

I would not get either of those.

I don't see a need for a piston design in full-length AR.

The VTAC is set up the way Kyle Lamb wants it to. That doesn't mean that would benefit you necessarily, nor does that mean all Delta guys want it that way if Delta approval is important to you.
There have been some issues reported with current VTAC/Troy rail option btw, and Troy is releasing a new version.

My recommendation for a first AR is this, when it is in stock. http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=lrb-556&cat=138&page=1&search=&since=&status=. You can get just an upper if you want a different lower setup. Add MOE furniture and you can mount light and VFG if you want to. If you decided you need a free float rail in the future, it can be added later.

[Chuck Haggard]

I concur with the cleaning deal.

I was one of those spotless because the Army said so guys, I eventually learned the truth.

It takes me about five minutes to clean my ARs now, and they run just fine.

[MechEng]

I would go with the VTAC and put a set of Troy folding sights on it; Or as some have already mentioned, you might want to look into what BCM has to offer.

+8 (or whatever the count is on cleaning advice)
I too suffered from the military notion that your DI rifle needs to be “white glove inspection ready” for it to be reliable. A good buddy of mine (former Army Ranger), despite his anal retentive OCD like habit of cleaning his AR, hates cleaning his AR. So much so that he practically weeeed himself when piston driven AR’s became available. He found out the hard way that “piston driven” doesn’t necessarily equate to reliability. For the past year and several thousand rounds, to show him DI guns are reliable when dirty, I haven’t cleaned my BCM 16” or my 18” Noveske. Just keep them well lubed.

[virginiatactical]

VTAC.

+1 .. out of the two choices I would recommend the VTAC as well.

I had a S&W VTAC for 1 year and it ran extremely well. I ran 5k rounds through it, and I had no issues with it. I was very happy with the price (I also went through the Military deal S&W had at the time). I really did not care that it didn't come with any iron sights as I put a Meopta K Dot on it as soon as I purchased the rifle. I now run a LaRue stealth, but my VTAC was a very good stepping stone for me. It is also nice and light. I often miss my VTAC.

I threw my VTAC at the test shed at work and it shot 1.25 x 1.44 MOA. Using 77gr Moly Coat Special Match 5.56. The best ammo my battalion had available, and what they use to test MOA on 5.56 Rifles. I was satisfied with the accuracy for what I paid for the gun.

On another note: I was cleaning the handguards and I accidentally lost some screws doing so. It was completely my fault. I called VTAC and they mailed me a ton of new screws for replacement and some in case I did that again ... customer service was quite nice there as well. They did not charge me a dime, even after telling them it was my fault.

[Drew]

Legendary Luger Lords,

Wow. I really appreciate all the feedback. I confess it will take some time to deprogram the dogma of the white glove inspection.

For the record - I also "wee-ed" myself at the prospect of piston-ology. But dirty and wet... well, we all know the merits of that.

So the DI's motion passes. But I will definitely check out the other recommendations (even if they aren't recommended by former Hardy Boys). Next resolution-

Does anyone know if there is a type of manufactured ammunition that replicates green tip performance in order to use the Christmas Tree (Ballistic Drop Compensator?) on ACOGs? We ran a range where we had guys tagging iron maidens at 700+ meters with them on regular M4s. Pretty sweet.

Thanks again.

Drew

[Kyle Reese]

Legendary Luger Lords,

Wow. I really appreciate all the feedback. I confess it will take some time to deprogram the dogma of the white glove inspection.

For the record - I also "wee-ed" myself at the prospect of piston-ology. But dirty and wet... well, we all know the merits of that.

So the DI's motion passes. But I will definitely check out the other recommendations (even if they aren't recommended by former Hardy Boys). Next resolution-

Does anyone know if there is a type of manufactured ammunition that replicates green tip performance in order to use the Christmas Tree (Ballistic Drop Compensator?) on ACOGs? We ran a range where we had guys tagging iron maidens at 700+ meters with them on regular M4s. Pretty sweet.

Thanks again.

Drew

http://www.sgammo.com/product/federal/820-rds-556-m855-lake-city-green-tip-boxed-ammo-can-marked-not-duty-use

[Drew]

Teutonic Teamwork,

You, Sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

Thank you (or vielen dank - if you will.)

Drew

[Kyle Reese]

Anytime. Thank you for your service to our Country.