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veteran-USMC
07-09-2013, 11:26 AM
DocGKR: I read your list of recommended 40 caliber ammo's. Can you recommend one or two brand & weight 40 caliber ammo's that appear to be working
a bit better with Law enforcement that are listed in your list. PS I practice,practice & then practice and know the importance of properly placed shots.
Thank-you for your experience.

rudy99
07-09-2013, 01:10 PM
DocGKR: I read your list of recommended 40 caliber ammo's. Can you recommend one or two brand & weight 40 caliber ammo's that appear to be working
a bit better with Law enforcement that are listed in your list. PS I practice,practice & then practice and know the importance of properly placed shots.
Thank-you for your experience.

I'm not Doc, but what is wrong with what is on the list? I'd think if something better than what was on the list were available, it would be on the list. Is there a thread I'm missing that brings this issue up?


.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Speer Gold Dot 165 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (RA40B/Q4355/S40SWPDB1)

Chuck Haggard
07-09-2013, 02:15 PM
There is very little difference in the wounding effect of the various service calibers, even less within the same caliber.

veteran-USMC
07-09-2013, 03:02 PM
I'm not Doc, but what is wrong with what is on the list? I'd think if something better than what was on the list were available, it would be on the list. Is there a thread I'm missing that brings this issue up?

Every round on Doc's list is good. Thought maybe there was one on the list that had a little more street history used by police.

JHC
07-09-2013, 03:10 PM
Every round on Doc's list is good. Thought maybe there was one on the list that had a little more street history used by police.

If you had the pick of the litter; I think you'd probably pick the 180 grain Federal HST.

Sparks2112
07-09-2013, 03:56 PM
If you had the pick of the litter; I think you'd probably pick the 180 grain Federal HST.

And it recoils less, at least to my hands.

rudy99
07-09-2013, 06:09 PM
Every round on Doc's list is good. Thought maybe there was one on the list that had a little more street history used by police.

Ah, I think I misread your original post. Reading is fundamental.

Chuck Haggard
07-09-2013, 08:45 PM
The 180gr Gold Dot has been doing a lot of good work for a huge number of departments for quite awhile now.

I have friends an hour east of here who have been very happy with the performance of that load.

jlw
07-09-2013, 09:57 PM
In the last year I attended two ammo demos, and a third was hosted on our range for our instructors. I wasn't able to attend that one, but I did see video footage from it.

If shooting through car bodies or auto glass is part of your decision making factor, go with the Hornady Critical Duty. Federal HST is a solid second. If such isn't a worry for you, all of the top shelf ammo is going to be good to go. I switched the agency duty ammo. I didn't throw away my personal Gold Dot or Ranger SXT. I did mandate that our old duty ammo be used to out down wounded critters, etc.

Sparks2112
07-09-2013, 10:38 PM
In the last year I attended two ammo demos, and a third was hosted on our range for our instructors. I wasn't able to attend that one, but I did see video footage from it.

If shooting through car bodies or auto glass is part of your decision making factor, go with the Hornady Critical Duty. Federal HST is a solid second. If such isn't a worry for you, all of the top shelf ammo is going to be good to go. I switched the agency duty ammo. I didn't throw away my personal Gold Dot or Ranger SXT. I did mandate that our old duty ammo be used to out down wounded critters, etc.

Doc stated that the Hornady Critical Duty was some of the worst .40 he tested IIRC, now I need to go look for the quote...

ETA:



.40 Hornady 175 gr Critical Duty at 985 fps:
BG: Pen = 16.9, RD = 0.51, RL = 0.56, RW = 175.1
4LD: Pen = 19.4, RD = 0.45, RL = 0.60, RW = 174.6

(dime)

.40 Fed 180 gr HST (P40HST1) at 986 fps:
BG: Pen = 13.8, RD = 0.70, RL = 0.33, RW = 181.5
4LD: Pen = 15.8, RD = 0.65, RL = 0.48, RW = 183.5

.40 Fed 165 gr HST (P40HST3) at 1129 fps:
BG: Pen = 13.5, RD = 0.69, RL = 0.39, RW = 165.6
4LD: Pen = 18.0, RD = 0.60, RL = 0.47, RW = 167.8

.40 Fed 155 gr HST (P40HST2) at 1150 fps:
BG: Pen = 12.5, RD = 0.67, RL = 0.34, RW = 155.4
4LD: Pen = 15.5, RD = 0.61, RL = 0.41, RW = 156.6

.40 BH 140 gr Barnes Tac-XP at 1267 fps:
BG: Pen = 13.5, RD = 0.63, RL = 0.48, RW = 139.5
4LD: Pen = 14.5, RD = 0.61, RL = 0.47, RW = 142.2

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/Horn175CritDuty_zps87f49bb3.jpg




In general, the Hornady Critical Duty ammunition did NOT perform as well as several current JHP loads. The best performing Critical Duty load was the .45 Auto 220 gr +P and the worst performing was the .40 S&W 175 gr. In areas where conventional JHP designs are prohibited, the Hornady Critical Duty joins the Federal EFMJ as an option that is better than the Corbon Powerball or FMJ loads.

jlw
07-09-2013, 11:03 PM
Doc stated that the Hornady Critical Duty was some of the worst .40 he tested IIRC, now I need to go look for the quote...

ETA:

Note the qualifier about car bodies and auto glass. I saw many of the other brands disintegrate and/or separate in the auto glass tests. The Critical Duty and the HST were the only brands that didn't do so. This was three different tests with repeatable results. There were conducted at three different locations, and in each, the Hornady folks allowed any and all comers to shoot the tests with their own firearms and ammo. Bare gel, denim clad gel, and wallboard barriers were also used.

Also please note the qualifier that I made concerning whether shooting through car bodies was a factor in the decision making process. I was buying duty ammo for guys making traffic stops. The car body/auto glass factor was a big deal to us.

Sparks2112
07-09-2013, 11:36 PM
Note the qualifier about car bodies and auto glass. I saw many of the other brands disintegrate and/or separate in the auto glass tests. The Critical Duty and the HST were the only brands that didn't do so. This was three different tests with repeatable results. There were conducted at three different locations, and in each, the Hornady folks allowed any and all comers to shoot the tests with their own firearms and ammo. Bare gel, denim clad gel, and wallboard barriers were also used.

Also please note the qualifier that I made concerning whether shooting through car bodies was a factor in the decision making process. I was buying duty ammo for guys making traffic stops. The car body/auto glass factor was a big deal to us.

Hey, you'd know better what you need than I would, just relaying information. :)

DocGKR
07-10-2013, 01:29 AM
Duplicate

DocGKR
07-10-2013, 01:30 AM
There have been a lot of shootings in this area with the Fed 180 gr HST--it works very well in OIS incidents and is what I have loaded in my .40's since I got it for free... If I had to pay for ammo, I would be comfortable using any load on that list.

veteran-USMC
07-10-2013, 08:34 AM
There have been a lot of shootings in this area with the Fed 180 gr HST--it works very well in OIS incidents and is what I have loaded in my .40's since I got it for free... If I had to pay for ammo, I would be comfortable using any load on that list.

DocGRK-thank-you for the ammo information.:)

Chuck Whitlock
07-10-2013, 08:08 PM
jlw,

Is the Critical Duty giving you any issues?

We purchased some last year and have been having intermittent failure-to-feed issues at qualification. I suspect that the rubber tips may be dragging on the inside of the magazine, and, if Doc Roberts numbers are an indication, slightly lower than published velocities, which may account for the extreme penetration/lack of expansion.

We've not had these issues with 155 gr. TAP CQ (XTP), 165 gr. HST, or older Hydro-shoks. I really want to like this ammo, and the price point we get is attractive, but job one has to be reliability, and we aren't seeing it. I still need to get on the phone with Kathy over this.

The agency has two sources for ammo (long story) and we recently got a fair amount of Win. Ranger bonded that we are carrying.

jlw
07-10-2013, 08:21 PM
jlw,

Is the Critical Duty giving you any issues?

We purchased some last year and have been having intermittent failure-to-feed issues at qualification. I suspect that the rubber tips may be dragging on the inside of the magazine, and, if Doc Roberts numbers are an indication, slightly lower than published velocities, which may account for the extreme penetration/lack of expansion.

We've not had these issues with 155 gr. TAP CQ (XTP), 165 gr. HST, or older Hydro-shoks. I really want to like this ammo, and the price point we get is attractive, but job one has to be reliability, and we aren't seeing it. I still need to get on the phone with Kathy over this.

The agency has two sources for ammo (long story) and we recently got a fair amount of Win. Ranger bonded that we are carrying.

We haven't had any issues with the ammo. In fairness though, we have only had it for a few months.

Chuck Whitlock
07-11-2013, 09:05 AM
Thanks for the feedback.
The sporadic/intermittent incidents makes it hard to pin down. We have a mix of brand new Gen4s and 10+ year old Gen3s, some with lights and some without, but none of these seem to be a factor.

Chuck Whitlock
08-21-2013, 05:55 PM
jlw,

Is the Critical Duty giving you any issues?

We purchased some last year and have been having intermittent failure-to-feed issues at qualification. I suspect that the rubber tips may be dragging on the inside of the magazine, and, if Doc Roberts numbers are an indication, slightly lower than published velocities, which may account for the extreme penetration/lack of expansion.

We've not had these issues with 155 gr. TAP CQ (XTP), 165 gr. HST, or older Hydro-shoks. I really want to like this ammo, and the price point we get is attractive, but job one has to be reliability, and we aren't seeing it. I still need to get on the phone with Kathy over this.

The agency has two sources for ammo (long story) and we recently got a fair amount of Win. Ranger bonded that we are carrying.

Just an update.
Got off the phone with Hornady LE rep today. She said that this was an issue early on and the round was redesigned. (we got ours early last year...most likely 1st run) They are replacing what we have left on hand. I will shoot the hell out of the replacement stuff when it comes in.