Ammo...huh?

[BLR]

I am utterly confounded as to why more people don't reload.

The cost argument used to be "I can buy 9mm as cheap as making it." That isn't true....assuming you can actually buy it. 9mm costs roughly $100/thou, 45 about $150.

Especially with all the QC issues abound.

I'm also perplexed as to why more commercial reloaders haven't sprung up.

And what I really don't get is why there are no competitors for primers and brass beyond what we have. Those aren't difficult to make, to be honest. ATK doesn't have a lock on engineers willing to work with explosives, and there must be a dozen local shops that could make cartridge cases around Dayton...well, used to be :(

Seems like a wonderful business/investment opportunity to me....

[ToddG]

I am utterly confounded as to why more people don't reload.


Picking up brass sucks.
My time is worth more than the difference in cost.
Picking up brass really sucks.

[Jay Cunningham]

Picking up brass sucks.
My time is worth more than the difference in cost.
Picking up brass really sucks.


FTMFW

[Symmetry]

Reloading isn't for everybody. It takes a patient person who is picky about attention to detail. I know some guys who I would recommending NOT getting into reloading, as they have personality types that would get easily frustrated, and do things carelessly. Personally, I like shooting .45acp and .308. Neither of which would I be able to afford to do much shooting with unless I had a good reloading setup. When reloading, I generally save about 60% with .45acp, and up to 70% with .308. With smaller, more common calibers like 9mm or 5.56, the savings are not as great.

[TGS]

I am utterly confounded as to why more people don't reload.

I work 60 hours a week and work on a grad degree in my down time.

Of my shooting buddies, they all work similar hours or two jobs. Fortunately for rsa-otc, reloading is part of his job. :cool:

Lots of Americans are working 2nd jobs these days, so that might be of influence.

[JV_]

It takes me 10-15 minutes to load enough ammo for a range session, 250'ish rounds. I wake up a few minutes early and crank it out before my Friday AM range session. It's not really that time intensive ...

If my schedule is so tight that I can't spare the time to reload, I probably shouldn't be hitting the range for a few hours.

[EricP]

I do reload, mostly out of necessity. I enjoy the load development and carefully crafting my own ammo. I don't like reloading for anything I shoot in high volume. If I could, I'd buy 9mm and 5.56mm by the truck load and leave the brass for the scroungers.

I'd love to see more companies producing primers. My guess as to why you don't see new companies making primers is the permitting process, as well as, that shooters tend to be a conservative lot. When Wolf primers became available in ~ 2005, they were dirt cheap and nobody was buying them.

[BLR]

I do reload, mostly out of necessity. I enjoy the load development and carefully crafting my own ammo. I don't like reloading for anything I shoot in high volume. If I could, I'd buy 9mm and 5.56mm by the truck load and leave the brass for the scroungers.

I'd love to see more companies producing primers. My guess as to why you don't see new companies making primers is the permitting process, as well as, that shooters tend to be a conservative lot. When Wolf primers became available in ~ 2005, they were dirt cheap and nobody was buying them.

Same here. I load less for cost than because what I want to shoot isn't available (well, I'm not paying $1 per from Blackhills for 200g LSWC :rolleyes:).

As for primers - it's easier than you'd think. We have an AFTE Explosives License (got my first Letter of Correction this year). I've personally made thousands of primers under an R&D contract. It's simple. Remington has a couple really good (and expired) patents out there on how to make compounds that you can develop from there. As for the market, I'd not go retail at first.

Still, I don't understand why more don't reload. I'm crunched for time far more than the average guy (2 businesses, 3rd grad degree - Nuclear Eng). Though, I don't have a wife+kids.... Meaning, that for me, the decision was availability and tuneability of ammo, not cost/time.

What prompted this line of thought is the ammo thread running right now where tpd223 mentioned that selling ammo for profit w/o license is a fed crime. If it's bad enough where people can jack up the price, why is reloading not more popular?

[cclaxton]

I am utterly confounded as to why more people don't reload. The cost argument used to be "I can buy 9mm as cheap as making it." That isn't true....assuming you can actually buy it. 9mm costs roughly $100/thou, 45 about $150. Especially with all the QC issues abound. I'm also perplexed as to why more commercial reloaders haven't sprung up. And what I really don't get is why there are no competitors for primers and brass beyond what we have. Those aren't difficult to make, to be honest. ATK doesn't have a lock on engineers willing to work with explosives, and there must be a dozen local shops that could make cartridge cases around Dayton...well, used to be :( Seems like a wonderful business/investment opportunity to me....

This is why I started my business reselling commercially reloaded 9mm, .40 and .45. I sold 150,000 rounds in May, and another 150,000 rounds this month. There are no problems with this ammo because he buys already-cleaned reloadable casings, and the mfr pressure-tests and measures each casing. That way he is nearly eliminating the typical problems with hairline fractures or bent casings causing bad rounds. He uses CCI primers, Alliant powder and Extreme bullets.

I have ammo available in quantities when nobody else except Gunbroker has it. I shot the Carolina Cup, Va State Championship, BEast of the East, and two local matches with over 1000 rounds of this ammo and had zero ammo failures...in fact not a single malfunction at all. I am shooting it in a Cz75 Shadow.

I am not sure you can reload ammo at $100/1000. Everyone I talk to about this tells me it's more like $150-200/1000 for 9mm and $200-250/1000 for .45 because the cost of components have gone up...for those that are available to purchase....in other words...today's market price for components.

Everybody seems to be referring back to pre-Newtown pricing and some web sites still have those old prices up....but those prices are not returning any time soon. There is too much demand and not enough supply...Economics 101: "The current price at which an asset or service can be bought or sold. Economic theory contends that the market price converges at a point where the forces of supply and demand meet. Shocks to either the supply side and/or demand side can cause the market price for a good or service to be re-evaluated."

The market price has been re-evaluated. But there are people like me that are offering available commercially reloaded ammo at $100-150 below the market price. A good indicator of market price is the Gunbroker.com website. There you can track auctions with no reserve and monitor the price that ammo will sell. THAT is the convergent point for supply and demand.

I am restricted from advertising here, but you can PM me if interested.
CC

[DocGKR]

Time. I work 0700-1900 M-F and am on call other times.

[Josh Runkle]

It is extremely time consuming to start reloading from scratch. First you talk to some buddies about reloading, then you take a class to learn how to do it safely, then you read some books on the subject. Then you buy your first press. Then you search forever to find components. Then you start reading books on loading data to work up a load. Then you test the load. Then you repeat this process multiple times. Then you ensure that the load works in multiple firearms of the same caliber that you own. You put a few thousand rounds downrange, tweak your load, fire a few thousand more. Now you have a solid load, but you have trouble finding components. Also, you realize that you want a different press, so you purchase that. Then you work through your quality control issues with your new setup, quality control of things like reloading environment, maybe there's too much humidity, etc, so you buy a dehumidifier. You get tired of cleaning brass so offer that you buy a larger cleaner/tumbler.

At that point, after a year of work, thousands of dollars and tens of thousands of rounds of trial and error, you are now safely making your own quality ammo that truly rivals (if it isn't better) factory ammo.

At that point, you can produce cheaper ammo. While the "savings" are supposedly huge, reloaders never seem to factor everything like the cost of presses, dies, media, etc into the final cost of their ammo...they only factor the cost of the components. Then, at that stage, there is the fact that you are dumping time into it. It's not just time cranking out rounds. It's time picking up brass, reading data, buying components, punching out primers, cleaning brass, etc. By this point, it makes almost no sense from a financial aspect, unless your time is worth less than minimum wage.

So, reloading absolutely makes sense if you plan on producing a product that is superior to factory ammo. It makes sense if you are afraid that you will no longer be able to get components some day in the future. It makes sense if you fear ammo laws regarding how many rounds you can purchase at a time. It makes sense if you do it for years and years, where there is no new time reading data, and the presses have long ago paid for themselves, but it absolutely does not make sense to start reloading because of economic down-turn, temporary ammo shortages or temporary ammo prices.

[hufnagel]

My time is worth more than the difference in cost.


Agreed, until the recent panic, and using my current hourly rate. However I would have needed to buy reloading materials and gear at pre-panic crisis prices, and if I'd had THAT kind of magic crystal ball I would have just bought more new ammo.

[LHS]

I'm just getting into reloading, and so far I'm doing just .44 Magnum. But even with today's inflated prices, I'm loading .44 Magnum plinking rounds for $150/1000. Obviously loading up premium projos with heavy powder charges is getting more expensive, but I can play with my Vaquero all day for less than my AK, my Berettas, and certainly my ARs.

Next caliber on the list is 9.3x62mm Mauser. The cheapest factory ammo is about $1.25/rd, and I can reload it for $0.45/rd, using roughly the same components (Prvi Partizan cases, Big Game powder and Prvi 285gr JSPs with WLRM primers). I've got components, I just need dies, and it's off to the races.

[NETim]

I've been reloading for over four decades now. It's an enjoyable hobby for yours truly. I don't count my time as its not taking away from my work.

I also like the fact I can dial up the load I need for a given application.

Just spent the last few days setting up an XL650... almost as much fun as shootin'. :)

[jetfire]

Picking up brass sucks.
My time is worth more than the difference in cost.
Picking up brass really sucks.


So true. I have also developed a distaste for the brass-ratters at action pistol matches who dive on my brass as it hits the ground, so I've vowed to never become an animal like "those people."

[BLR]

So true. I have also developed a distaste for the brass-ratters at action pistol matches who dive on my brass as it hits the ground, so I've vowed to never become an animal like "those people."

It gets pricey to leave a bunch of Super Comp on the ground. Or 9x23.

[DBLAction454]

Picking up brass sucks.
My time is worth more than the difference in cost.
Picking up brass really sucks.


Yes.

One hour at work is worth a lot more than $ saved in reloading.

-DBLAction454

[jetfire]

It gets pricey to leave a bunch of Super Comp on the ground. Or 9x23.

I'm talking about people who grab my brass while I'm getting scored or something. People who rat other people's brass without permission should be shot in front of their families. Maybe I want to donate my brass to the range.

[Matt O]

So true. I have also developed a distaste for the brass-ratters at action pistol matches who dive on my brass as it hits the ground, so I've vowed to never become an animal like "those people."

Diving on other people's brass in a match is one thing, but for the masses who can't charge ammo purchases as a business expense, picking up your brass wherever possible is kinda...you know...prudent. ;)

[Matt O]

People who rat other people's brass without permission should be shot in front of their families.

Fair enough and agreed.

[BLR]

Fair enough and agreed.

I read that wrong too....

Pilfering another dudes brass is tacky to be sure. Luckily, my club doesn't partake in such antics.

[DanH]

It's the setup price, for me anyway. A Dillon 650 and components isn't cheap. If I had that kind of money to spare right now, it's entirely possible I would spend it beginning reloading instead of buying a new gun (or two), but I just don't have it.
Even a Square Deal B and workbench for the bare minimum is still as much or more than a Glock.
And components aren't getting any cheaper.

The worst part is, I'm exactly the obsessive person who should be reloading ;p

[ToddG]

So true. I have also developed a distaste for the brass-ratters at action pistol matches who dive on my brass as it hits the ground, so I've vowed to never become an animal like "those people."

Maybe it's because I don't reload, but I am perfectly fine with anyone who wants to pick my brass up. I wasn't going to so they're not hurting me. Maybe I wasn't required to so they're not helping me, either. But I've been to enough clubs (both to shoot and to teach) where the order of the day is, "Normally we pick up brass but the scroungers are here so we don't have to." Bless them.

[CCT125US]

It is extremely time consuming to start reloading from scratch. First you talk to some buddies about reloading, then you take a class to learn how to do it safely, then you read some books on the subject. Then you buy your first press. Then you search forever to find components. Then you start reading books on loading data to work up a load. Then you test the load. Then you repeat this process multiple times. Then you ensure that the load works in multiple firearms of the same caliber that you own. You put a few thousand rounds downrange, tweak your load, fire a few thousand more. Now you have a solid load, but you have trouble finding components. Also, you realize that you want a different press, so you purchase that. Then you work through your quality control issues with your new setup, quality control of things like reloading environment, maybe there's too much humidity, etc, so you buy a dehumidifier. You get tired of cleaning brass so offer that you buy a larger cleaner/tumbler.

At that point, after a year of work, thousands of dollars and tens of thousands of rounds of trial and error, you are now safely making your own quality ammo that truly rivals (if it isn't better) factory ammo.

At that point, you can produce cheaper ammo. While the "savings" are supposedly huge, reloaders never seem to factor everything like the cost of presses, dies, media, etc into the final cost of their ammo...they only factor the cost of the components. Then, at that stage, there is the fact that you are dumping time into it. It's not just time cranking out rounds. It's time picking up brass, reading data, buying components, punching out primers, cleaning brass, etc. By this point, it makes almost no sense from a financial aspect, unless your time is worth less than minimum wage.

So, reloading absolutely makes sense if you plan on producing a product that is superior to factory ammo. It makes sense if you are afraid that you will no longer be able to get components some day in the future. It makes sense if you fear ammo laws regarding how many rounds you can purchase at a time. It makes sense if you do it for years and years, where there is no new time reading data, and the presses have long ago paid for themselves, but it absolutely does not make sense to start reloading because of economic down-turn, temporary ammo shortages or temporary ammo prices.

If only we were friends............ we really need to sit down and crank out some ammo:) I know sumdood that has a couple extra pieces of brass laying around. A bucket of it may actually be yours.........

[Josh Runkle]

If only we were friends............ we really need to sit down and crank out some ammo:) I know sumdood that has a couple extra pieces of brass laying around. A bucket of it may actually be yours.........

Fair enough ;) I guess I'm just trying to find good excuses ;)

[Odin Bravo One]

It would probably not serve most folks to try to start now, given the scarcity of components.......but if you don't start now, when will you? Next ammo shortage? Next election? Next year?

I can buy 9mm & .45 projectiles for pennies if bought in bulk. By bulk, I mean, several thousand (10-20k) at a time. Powder at least 16-24 lbs at a time, and it doesn't hurt to buy primers 10-20k a pop either. Not only do I still get ammo for free at work, anything I spend on related items is also a tax write off. So while I can just help myself to whatever I want, within reason, it still makes sense to reload. I can also down load either round for economy of powder, as well as training value. The wife tires long before the end of a 500 round session. But 500 rounds of powder puff loads not only get her the reps, but also buys me another 100 rounds worth of powder. And free ammo won't be forever. I intend to have a good RDB full of ammo when the time comes there is no more rich uncle.

I'll admit that setting up each press for the exact load you want to crank out can be time consuming, but once it is set up, the economy of motion of a 650 makes 250 round sessions no more than 10-15 minutes.

I tend to spend my after dinner hours, and crappy weather days to catch up on reloading. No shortage of non-shooting, crappy weather days...........cause let's get real........I am a fair weather hobby shooter. Unless I am getting paid, I am not shooting in the rain. Or the snow. Or 100 degrees + 100% humidity. Not anymore anyway.

[littlejerry]

So true. I have also developed a distaste for the brass-ratters at action pistol matches who dive on my brass as it hits the ground, so I've vowed to never become an animal like "those people."

This is why I absolutely love shooting steel cased 9mm at USPSA matches.

The hens get all in a tizzy.

[Kyle Reese]

This is why I absolutely love shooting steel cased 9mm at USPSA matches.

The hens get all in a tizzy.

Better yet.... European made brass cased 9mm with Berdan primers......:cool:

[Chuck Haggard]

We used to issue 124gr Blazer as our practice round at work since it always got the bid. I used to enjoy leaving my "brass" all over the range for the brass scroungers who would wait like vultures.

[JV_]

124gr BlazerFWIW: Blazer brass is just as bad as aluminum.

[Slavex]

I've had no issue loading Blazzer brass cases.

My reloading sessions are typically 1/2hr to 1hr. It takes me 30 minutes to load 1000 rounds my 1050. I only pick brass at class and occasionally on the outdoor range if I'm bored.
Something to be aware of, we just had a company come into our club and make a deal to purchase all our brass, it's going back to the USA to be remade. These guys and other companies are hitting ranges all over North America and are wanting range brass, so much so they are willing to pay 10-15 cents more a pound for it than recyclers will pay. There is going to be a brass shortage if this keeps up.
When I was in Sweden at the Norma factory I asked them about primers, they are incredibly difficult and dangerous to manufacture. As far as I know they are all still done by hand at all companies, no automated process, and it takes skilled workers to make them. That's probably one reason why no one else is jumping into the game making them.

[JAD]

The 'my time is worth more than that' concept is only valid if you would use the time spent reloading either doing something you'll actually get paid for or doing something you normally pay someone else to do. For everybody but Bill R and Tom J, that's probably bull kitten.


Jon
KC

[JV_]

I've had no issue loading Blazzer brass cases.10% of the cases I see fired for the first time are split.

[fuse]

People who shoot steel or aluminum cased ammo should be shot in front of their families. Maybe it's a pain to sort that kitten out later. Be considerate. Shoot brass.

Fixed it for you brah

[fuse]

This is why I absolutely love shooting steel cased 9mm at USPSA matches.

The hens get all in a tizzy.

Not cool brah

[fuse]

10% of the cases I see fired for the first time are split.

Wow. I have loaded a ton of blazer brass. Can't say I've noticed any problems at a higher rate than others.

[fuse]

Honestly the thing I hate most about reloading is the brass prep, though I guess this is due to my setup at home. I live in a ground floor apartment, and must do this on my patio. Maybe doesn't sound like a pain, but it is. Was thinking of getting a second tumbler so I have twice the output.

Actually, does anyone in the area want to go in on a cement mixer or some such thing with me? We could tumble like once a year.

[JV_]

I've stopped doing a lot of brass prep.

If they came off the NRA Range floor, I just toss them in a Tupperware tub and spray with Dillon Case Lube.

[fuse]

That's pretty awesome.

I have picked up alot 45 brass that looked like it just came out of the tumbler.

[BLR]

There are some sickies on this forum. Looking at your Fred/LJ.

Yeah, a 300 round session takes me around 20min to make. And, the ammo is better than anything in a white box or made by ATK.

Maybe I'm the only one here who thinks like this too - accuracy matters. A lot. None of the bulk ammo I've shot would break 2" at 25yrds with any consistency. 4.7g of Bullseye over 200g SWC Precision Bullets is good for 1" at the same distance. Why add 1" of error in everything, and pay more to do so?

Heck, typing this out likely represents loading up 100 rounds in time.

[Byron]

I am utterly confounded as to why more people don't reload.

Why add 1" of error in everything, and pay more to do so?
You seem to be framing the issue as if everyone could just pick up and start loading at any time, but they choose not to out of some kind stubbornness, ignorance, or poor decision making abilities.

I could just as easily wax poetic about how much better of an operating system I have on my phone, because I roll custom. And why doesn't everyone do what I do? Why deal with applications that cannot be removed from your factory phone, and pay to do so?

I spend less than 5 minutes per day on maintaining/upgrading my operating system. Who doesn't have 5 minutes per day?

Of course... there was the time I spent setting up my computer for the debugging bridge. And there was the time I spent learning how to root a device and understand its inner workings. And there was all the time I spent occasionally messing up. And all that time that I spent troubleshooting errors that I thought were mine, only to later find out that a very rare software interaction was occurring.

But those are the challenges that I've come to love, and now it's just 5 minutes per day! And who doesn't have 5 minutes per day? And unlike reloading, my pet-hobby-that-also-happens-to-be-very-functional didn't require any upfront investment in equipment, nor does it require ongoing material costs. Oh, and it never involves any physical risk to me or those around me, which is nice.

And we could do this for a million other subjects: car maintenance, HVAC, plumbing, computer repair, housecleaning, etc.

I think we can come up with a pretty generic list of reasons why people don't do _________ and have it universally apply:
In no particular order:

Time
Money
Discipline
Lack of materials (money)
Lack of knowledge (money and time)
Lack of facilities (money and time)
Lack of skill (time and luck)
Aversion to messing up
...and a bunch more


I think the biggest reason is even easier though: interest (or lack thereof)

In answer to the original question, though; reloading simply isn't practical for me.

[cclaxton]

The main reason I went into the ammo resale business as opposed to reloading is:
1) Distracts my attention and time from dry-fire practice, live-fire practice, becoming a better shooter, and shooting matches;
2) Cost of Entry: It takes a significant investment to get up and running, plus adequate space/bench/storage, plus the limited availability of components;
3) Reliability: As I am now SO for local clubs I see a LOT of malfunctions caused by bad home reloads; A SSP Master who does his own reloads had a squib at the Carolina Cup and it cost him PLACING in the top three. Even Factory New ammo can have problems, but in my experience factory produced ammo is more reliable and consistent.
4) A lot of people don't want to reload, and it creates a market demand for factory reloaded and new ammunition. So, if there is going to be strong demand, then I can run an ammo business, always have ammo, reduce my own ammo costs, provide a product at a fair market price, and provide a needed service.

CC

[BLR]

You seem to be framing the issue as if everyone could just pick up and start loading at any time, but they choose not to out of some kind stubbornness, ignorance, or poor decision making abilities.

I could just as easily wax poetic about how much better of an operating system I have on my phone, because I roll custom. And why doesn't everyone do what I do? Why deal with applications that cannot be removed from your factory phone, and pay to do so?

I spend less than 5 minutes per day on maintaining/upgrading my operating system. Who doesn't have 5 minutes per day?

Of course... there was the time I spent setting up my computer for the debugging bridge. And there was the time I spent learning how to root a device and understand its inner workings. And there was all the time I spent occasionally messing up. And all that time that I spent troubleshooting errors that I thought were mine, only to later find out that a very rare software interaction was occurring.

But those are the challenges that I've come to love, and now it's just 5 minutes per day! And who doesn't have 5 minutes per day? And unlike reloading, my pet-hobby-that-also-happens-to-be-very-functional didn't require any upfront investment in equipment, nor does it require ongoing material costs. Oh, and it never involves any physical risk to me or those around me, which is nice.

And we could do this for a million other subjects: car maintenance, HVAC, plumbing, computer repair, housecleaning, etc.

I think we can come up with a pretty generic list of reasons why people don't do _________ and have it universally apply:
In no particular order:

Time
Money
Discipline
Lack of materials (money)
Lack of knowledge (money and time)
Lack of facilities (money and time)
Lack of skill (time and luck)
Aversion to messing up
...and a bunch more


I think the biggest reason is even easier though: interest (or lack thereof)

In answer to the original question, though; reloading simply isn't practical for me.

I get what you/Todd/etc are saying. I do.

But http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?8281-ammo-seems-to-be-eaing-up-in-fla-area indicates that many people would be shooting more if they took up reloading. I'd not be able to keep up my practice cadence if I didn't roll my own...due to availability.

Maybe I'm misreading the situation completely, and it's fine for professional shooters (people getting ammo for free) to say "eh, not worth my time," but what about all the other people? Ammo shortages suck. And when this one is over, we'll get another. And another. And another. I went into the primer scare with 75k primers on the shelf, 40k of which was 45. That represented 2 years of shooting. I went into the second election with double that.

As for economy, 45ACP is $500/k? Reloaded is, extremely conservatively estimated, for me at $200. 1000k represents 1hr of work. $300/hr is in excess of my bill rate. Multiplied through by 20 (20k/yr) is $6k/yr in savings. The margins are less for 9, granted. But still. Not to mention that the quality/accuracy is far in excess of anything else off the shelf.

[Tamara]

The 'my time is worth more than that' concept is only valid if you would use the time spent reloading either doing something you'll actually get paid for or doing something you normally pay someone else to do. For everybody but Bill R and Tom J, that's probably bull kitten.

You could probably roof or rewire your house cheaper than a commercial roofer or electrician. That's no bullkitten.

[secondstoryguy]

I started reloading only to offset the recent lack of availability of ammo. But now, even if ammo availability gets better, I still think I'll reload as it isn't all that time consuming. I only shoot 9mm and my press stays set up for one bullet/powder combo so it only takes me about 10min to set it up and get rolling. I can crank out enough ammo for a month of shooting in no time at all.

I have another press set up for precision rifle ammo. That can be much more tedious to load but the cost difference is larger so its worth it to me.

[BLR]

You could probably roof or rewire your house cheaper than a commercial roofer or electrician. That's no bullkitten.

True. But I'm not sure you could convince me that pulling a lever 1000 times for $300 over the span of an hour is analogous to roofing.

Don't want to, and willing to deal with the ammo shortage and costs, cool, you don't have to. That's what makes this country so great.

I'm just surprised more aren't rolling their own, if for no other reason than cost and availability.

What is really bullkitten: the cost of a case of 45ACP.

[Tamara]

True. But I'm not sure you could convince me that pulling a lever 1000 times for $300 over the span of an hour is analogous to roofing.

Don't want to, and willing to deal with the ammo shortage and costs, cool, you don't have to. That's what makes this country so great.

But then every time I explain that there are things I would rather be doing with my time than reloading and that I am willing to give some dude little green pieces of paper to do it for me while I go have fun, I wind up seeing threads like this.

[Chuck Haggard]

If I had the money to do so, say "if I won the lottery" type musings, I would build a small factory that only built 9mm, .223/5.56, .308, .38 special, and maybe, maybe .40

The first four are all you really need socially, and for the vast majority of CONUS hunting as well even, except for bird hunting and frankly shotgun ammo isn't tough to come by, and .22lr ammo.


I think before things got stupid there was way too much work being done on .338SuperShortWideFatExtraMagnum rounds and other such BS.

[NETim]

If I had the money to do so, say "if I won the lottery" type musings, I would build a small factory that only built 9mm, .223/5.56, .308, .38 special, and maybe, maybe .40

The first four are all you really need socially, and for the vast majority of CONUS hunting as well even, except for bird hunting and frankly shotgun ammo isn't tough to come by, and .22lr ammo.


I think before things got stupid there was way too much work being done on .338SuperShortWideFatExtraMagnum rounds and other such BS.

Hard to improve on the ol' '06. :)

[BLR]

If I had the money to do so, say "if I won the lottery" type musings, I would build a small factory that only built 9mm, .223/5.56, .308, .38 special, and maybe, maybe .40

The first four are all you really need socially, and for the vast majority of CONUS hunting as well even, except for bird hunting and frankly shotgun ammo isn't tough to come by, and .22lr ammo.


I think before things got stupid there was way too much work being done on .338SuperShortWideFatExtraMagnum rounds and other such BS.

What a horrible word. Need. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth.... ;)

I happen to love woodchuckin' with my No.1 in 219DW. And squirrel hunting with my Cascade Arms 22CCM.

An no better elk round was ever invented then the 338WM.

But then, you have to honor Jack and have at least one 270.

And so on...

Ok, so reloading is a no-go because it is a distasteful task?

[NETim]

What a horrible word. Need. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth.... ;)

I happen to love woodchuckin' with my No.1 in 219DW. And squirrel hunting with my Cascade Arms 22CCM.

An no better elk round was ever invented then the 338WM.

But then, you have to honor Jack and have at least one 270.

And so on...

Ok, so reloading is a no-go because it is a distasteful task?

What?!? No Hornet?!?!

[jetfire]

Things that are lame and boring in no particular order:

Cleaning guns
repairing guns
reloading ammo
changing the oil in my car(s)


Things that are rad and awesome in no particular order:

Shooting guns
Driving my car(s)
watching baseball while drinking beer
working out
training in general
hanging out with rad and awesome people


What's interesting is that the first list is also a list of things I'd rather pay someone money to do so I can spend more time doing stuff on the second list.

Life is all about value choices. I place a much higher value on "dry fire" than I do on crafting a load that shoots 1 inch out of my Colts at 25 yards when I can just call up Wilson Combat and give them money to do it for me. Suddenly that hour of time I would have spent reloading is an hour of time I've spent doing something that's important.

[Tamara]

Ok, so reloading is a no-go because it is a distasteful task?

No, I generally enjoyed reloading when I was doing it. At some point, I imagine I'll drag the Lee turret press, which is already mounted to a plank in the garage, into the basement and clear a place in the corner where I can c-clamp it to a Workmate and get some of the brass out of the five gallon buckets I have full of it, and break out some of the components I have on the shelf, and make some ammo, in much the same way that I imagine I'll eventually find time and a place to set up the little N-gauge choo choo set my roomie got me for Christmas several years ago.

Heck, maybe I'll go crazy and order a Square Deal B.

In the meantime, I remain blissfully unwracked by guilt for using my finite time to do other things which I also find enjoyable. :cool:

[BLR]

What?!? No Hornet?!?!

Nah. Shoulder is too gentle. I like the Bee..... :cool:

[NETim]

Nah. Shoulder is too gentle. I like the Bee..... :cool:

But they didn't chamber Model 70's for the Bee. :)

[CCT125US]

10% of the cases I see fired for the first time are split.

Maybe the HK gods have angels that prevent such a thing.

The only splits I have seen from my HK are from the Federal 147 gr with the cannelure. After 3 firing cycles, multiple cases showed signs of gas escaping at cannelure. They were all easy to sort out and discard. The cheapo WM Federal Champion can go at least 12 cycles for me. The harder brass seems to fail sooner IMO.



FWIW: Blazer brass is just as bad as aluminum.

Very interesting, I wonder what guns produce the splits. I am currently on my 9th reloading (10th firing) of blazer. I sort by headstamp, but after it is cyled in the P30, I get the distinctive chamber step ring that makes pulling my brass very easy. I did notice that there was a change in the manufacturing of the blazer brass some time ago. I compared some current production and an old box of my fathers. The current was using a plated bullets. and the brass itself just looked different. Where as the old stock used an actual FMJ bullet, and the brass itself looked like current premium brass. If I can I will post up pictures as it is hard to put into words.

[Odin Bravo One]

What is really bullkitten: the cost of a case of 45ACP.

230 grain match ball - $0.00 where I buy mine..........and we are always hiring.


If I had the money to do so, say "if I won the lottery" type musings, I would build a small factory that only built 9mm, .223/5.56, .308, .38 special, and maybe, maybe .40

The first four are all you really need socially, and for the vast majority of CONUS hunting as well even, except for bird hunting and frankly shotgun ammo isn't tough to come by, and .22lr ammo.

Unless of course CONUS hunting someday requires a different kind of animal to hunt.......


Hard to improve on the ol' '06. :)

It is.

Unless we shorten the case to fit into short action receivers, make it easier to feed into machineguns, and give it nearly identical in-flight, and terminal ballistics as the ol' '06. We could call the new and improved .30-06 the 7.62 NATO.

[JAD]

But then every time I explain that there are things I would rather be doing with my time than reloading and that I am willing to give some dude little green pieces of paper to do it for me while I go have fun, I wind up seeing threads like this.
-- I am totally cool with 'rather be doing.' I object to the idea of 'my time is worth more than that.' Most people's time is worth very little.

[Corlissimo]

It would probably not serve most folks to try to start now, given the scarcity of components.......but if you don't start now, when will you? Next ammo shortage? Next election? Next year?

This is exactly what I have been mulling over recently. You've got to start somewhere and at some time, might as well be now. If not, and things go further south than they already are, then I'll be kicking myself in the teeth even harder than I already am.

[BLR]

230 grain match ball - $0.00 where I buy mine..........and we are always hiring.


Ummmm, I really doubt your outfit pays enough to deal with what you deal with (not really knowing your background, that covers anything from local cop in small town all the way up to whatever military wing you like to insert here). And an endless supply of ACP isn't compensation enough. Or anywhere close to being enough...

So unless you guys are looking for an over educated, CBRNE/Nuclear Eng/Energetic mat'ls guy who is soft, and is used to billing by the hour, I don't think it'd work out. ;)

Though, I have to say, I've been on the receiving end of free, quality, factory ammo more than once, and it does shoot...nice.

[LittleLebowski]

It is.

Unless we shorten the case to fit into short action receivers, make it easier to feed into machineguns, and give it nearly identical in-flight, and terminal ballistics as the ol' '06. We could call the new and improved .30-06 the 7.62 NATO.

That was beautiful.

[Odin Bravo One]

and is used to billing by the hour, I don't think it'd work out. ;)



I actually took the time one year to bang out the math of an hourly wage............yea...........it wasn't a very motivating exercise. That particular year, the average was less than minimum wage, even after factoring in the medical expenses.

So I can totally see your point.............

[NETim]

It is.

Unless we shorten the case to fit into short action receivers, make it easier to feed into machineguns, and give it nearly identical in-flight, and terminal ballistics as the ol' '06. We could call the new and improved .30-06 the 7.62 NATO.

Agreed but... BUT... once we start slingin' 180 grain and better slugs downrange, the '06 has the advantage. It may be slight but it's there. On that basis, I believe the '06 is the more versatile round (as a hunting cartridge.)

Besides, Jack O'Connor liked the '06. :) He opined that if limited to only one rifle caliber to hunt worldwide with, the .375 H&H would get the nod. If he had the choice of two, then the '06 was rifle #2. (Naturally, game laws have changed significantly since then and the .375 would not be a legal caliber for larger African species but the H&H has still killed a lot of big stuff.)

As a side note, I read somewhere recently that Nosler has gone to the .300 WSM as their pick for testing their .30 cal bullets as they believe it's more accurate than even the .308. :confused:

"Ain't many troubles that a man can't fix, with seven-hundred dollars and a 30-06." -- Lindy Wistrom (Col. Cooper's daughter.) :)

[BLR]

As a side note, I read somewhere recently that Nosler has gone to the .300 WSM as their pick for testing their .30 cal bullets as they believe it's more accurate than even the .308. :confused:



Yeah, that opinion follows the generally accepted as true theory that the "significant" accuracy gains may be had through more consistent ignition afforded by the squattier case profile. I don't disagree, to a point. You'd have to lay some serious analytical evidence for me to buy in the WSSM being intrinsically more accurate than the 308 case. Magnum primers are crap for consistency, in my experience. There is a fellow, with a patent or two on the subject, that went to a parabolic shoulder and as a result claims increased ignition consistency/efficiency. Again, practical gains are yet to be quantified. Nice theory, though. Quite an interesting read.

[NETim]

Yeah, that opinion follows the generally accepted as true theory that the "significant" accuracy gains may be had through more consistent ignition afforded by the squattier case profile. I don't disagree, to a point. You'd have to lay some serious analytical evidence for me to buy in the WSSM being intrinsically more accurate than the 308 case. Magnum primers are crap for consistency, in my experience. There is a fellow, with a patent or two on the subject, that went to a parabolic shoulder and as a result claims increased ignition consistency/efficiency. Again, practical gains are yet to be quantified. Nice theory, though. Quite an interesting read.

I'm thinkin' it would take a hell of a rifleman and a helluva rifle to detect a difference between the two. I have a hard time questioning Nosler though. They make damn good stuff.

[jetfire]

Yeah, that opinion follows the generally accepted as true theory that the "significant" accuracy gains may be had through more consistent ignition afforded by the squattier case profile. I don't disagree, to a point. You'd have to lay some serious analytical evidence for me to buy in the WSSM being intrinsically more accurate than the 308 case. Magnum primers are crap for consistency, in my experience. There is a fellow, with a patent or two on the subject, that went to a parabolic shoulder and as a result claims increased ignition consistency/efficiency. Again, practical gains are yet to be quantified. Nice theory, though. Quite an interesting read.

Just out of curiosity, what are the names of your calipers?

I keed, I keed. I wish I had the kind of attention to detail that you have.

[BLR]

I have a hard time questioning Nosler though.

Why?

The most published engineer in the world totally misinterpreted a set of data he and his team obtained. And the error was obvious (to people outside the group). Embarrassing. Been in his moccasins more than once too.

Resulted in our company publishing his mistake in conjunction w/ Oxford Univ. (citation http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17655265)

Mistakes happen. Data is misread, misunderstood, misinterpreted. Never take an expert opinion, on any subject, at face value. No mater how awesome he or she is or how much experience they have.

Point being, that decision may simply be a result of one of their ballisticians having a preference for that round.

[MGW]

I'm talking about people who grab my brass while I'm getting scored or something. People who rat other people's brass without permission should be shot in front of their families. Maybe I want to donate my brass to the range.

We were on a test fire range in BFE, actually it was BFIraq, working over M2's. I have no idea where they came from but a dozen locals just appeared. No weapons, no desire to get closer than 100m, but they want that freakin brass bad. I've never seen anything like it. I swear it was a dust storm of arms and legs as we started to pull out. You would have thought we dropped diamonds on the ground and not .50 brass.

[NETim]

Why?

The most published engineer in the world totally misinterpreted a set of data he and his team obtained. And the error was obvious (to people outside the group). Embarrassing. Been in his moccasins more than once too.

Resulted in our company publishing his mistake in conjunction w/ Oxford Univ. (citation http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17655265)

Mistakes happen. Data is misread, misunderstood, misinterpreted. Never take an expert opinion, on any subject, at face value. No mater how awesome he or she is or how much experience they have.

Point being, that decision may simply be a result of one of their ballisticians having a preference for that round.

Point taken.

I'm simply enamored with Nosler's products is all. The grand old Partition, the Ballistic Tip and the Accubond. Formidable line up IMHO. Their stuff generally works very, very well.

[BLR]

Point taken.

I'm simply enamored with Nosler's products is all. The grand old Partition, the Ballistic Tip and the Accubond. Formidable line up IMHO. Their stuff generally works very, very well.

No argument. I have a couple boxes of the screw lathe turned original partitions.

BTs, well, lets just say there are more than a few dead prairie dogs out there because the 55g BT. Nosler makes some of my fav bullets.

[Tamara]

Point taken.

I'm simply enamored with Nosler's products is all. The grand old Partition, the Ballistic Tip and the Accubond. Formidable line up IMHO. Their stuff generally works very, very well.

Did you know that the head of the moose that inspired the design of the original Partition bullet is hanging over the shop floor at Nosler? True fact! I saw it last year!

[Odin Bravo One]

Agreed but... BUT... once we start slingin' 180 grain and better slugs downrange, the '06 has the advantage.

Perhaps.......but if I am going to bother with larger than 175, why would I not just up it to .300 WinMag?

I can do a lot more accuracy, a lot further, and hit a lot harder with a 220 grain SMKBTHP out of a .300 WM than any .30-06, or .308 ever dreamed about.

But I'm also not concerned with hunting either. At least not in the "traditional" sense of the word.

[LittleLebowski]

I actually took the time one year to bang out the math of an hourly wage............yea...........it wasn't a very motivating exercise. That particular year, the average was less than minimum wage, even after factoring in the medical expenses.

So I can totally see your point.............

Try charging time and a half for "hurry up and wait" :D

No, that wouldn't work either.

[secondstoryguy]

We were on a test fire range in BFE, actually it was BFIraq, working over M2's. I have no idea where they came from but a dozen locals just appeared. No weapons, no desire to get closer than 100m, but they want that freakin brass bad. I've never seen anything like it. I swear it was a dust storm of arms and legs as we started to pull out. You would have thought we dropped diamonds on the ground and not .50 brass.

My bro just finished a tour in Astan and he said on more than one occasion they were fired on and located the enemy position by watching kids scramble around in the dirt for the brass. Some of guys at the range I shoot at would fit right in there....several months ago a couple of people came into the bay while I was shooting and started picking up my brass. Irritating to say the least.

[Chuck Haggard]

Perhaps.......but if I am going to bother with larger than 175, why would I not just up it to .300 WinMag?

I can do a lot more accuracy, a lot further, and hit a lot harder with a 220 grain SMKBTHP out of a .300 WM than any .30-06, or .308 ever dreamed about.

But I'm also not concerned with hunting either. At least not in the "traditional" sense of the word.

I'm going to guess that I have VASTLY less time behind a bolt gun that you, but I am almost of the opinion that if a guy can't get it done well with a .308/7.72 then he might be better off jumping up to a .338

Or is that just stupid?

[BLR]

I'm going to guess that I have VASTLY less time behind a bolt gun that you, but I am almost of the opinion that if a guy can't get it done well with a .308/7.72 then he might be better off jumping up to a .338

Or is that just stupid?

For game animals, I'd agree with that totally. The 338WM is a wonderful NA game caliber. Have a nice Beretta Mato in that.

[ToddG]

Things that are lame and boring in no particular order:

people who say "rad" and aren't talking about a unit of either ionizing radiation or angular measurement


Things that are rad and awesome in no particular order:
[LIST]

Fixed it for you

[Odin Bravo One]

I'm going to guess that I have VASTLY less time behind a bolt gun that you, but I am almost of the opinion that if a guy can't get it done well with a .308/7.72 then he might be better off jumping up to a .338

Or is that just stupid?

Not at all...........except that quality .338 guns and ammo both start tipping the cost/benefit ratio beyond my capabilities. I can't do much beyond about 1250, with any consistency with either gun. Between the two, inside 1250, I do not see a practical difference in ability to make hits. It is a "wizard/wand" situation, and no matter the wand, this wizard is just not up to the task beyond 1250. I know guys who are, but those who can "no shit" hit with consistency beyond 1250 are not nearly as common as the internet claims them to be. For me to go to a .338 doesn't make sense. I'm not able to take advantage of the advantages it provides, and I'd end up taking the disadvantages full bore in the wallet.

I'm sure if I stayed on the bolt gun with more consistency than I do currently, I might get back to where I could possibly use the extended range a .338 LM offers. But that is not likely to happen any time soon. Priorities being what they are.

[NETim]

Did you know that the head of the moose that inspired the design of the original Partition bullet is hanging over the shop floor at Nosler? True fact! I saw it last year!

:) I did not know that. :)

[NETim]

Perhaps.......but if I am going to bother with larger than 175, why would I not just up it to .300 WinMag?

I can do a lot more accuracy, a lot further, and hit a lot harder with a 220 grain SMKBTHP out of a .300 WM than any .30-06, or .308 ever dreamed about.

But I'm also not concerned with hunting either. At least not in the "traditional" sense of the word.

Again, you make a valid point. The .300 WinMag puts the ol' '06 to shame.

BUT (you knew that was coming), for a "one gun" kinda guy for GP North American hunting, from ground squirrels up through mooses, the '06 is pretty tough to beat. A lot of big bears have been hammered with it over the years, but personally I want something with far more "whop" for that kind of work.

FWIW, my arsenal has no .30's in it at all. (Un-American I know.) I make the jump from .270 Win to .338 WinMag. :) The .270 will wreak havoc at far greater distances than I can. :)

[jetfire]

Fixed it for you

You're not the boss of me, Old Man! You don't understand my generation!

[ToddG]

You don't understand my generation!

Aint that the truth...

[ST911]

A friend of mine enjoys reloading enough that his shooting has become mostly incidental to making the ammo. An OCD type, he spends his time researching, tweaking, shooting, and refining. It isn't always for accuracy, but for the smallest differentials in POI between loads, guns, barrels configurations, suppressed and unsuppressed, etc. It seems like much tail chasing at times, but it's not without interesting data points.

[Chuck Haggard]

You're not the boss of me, Old Man! You don't understand my generation!

Neither does your generation.

Just sayin.

[Al T.]

Tim, the '06 with a 220 grain bullet is pretty effective. You do lose range as it sheds velocity fairly rapidly.

[Tamara]

Neither does your generation.

BAM! :D

[Tamara]

A friend of mine enjoys reloading enough that his shooting has become mostly incidental to making the ammo. An OCD type, he spends his time researching, tweaking, shooting, and refining. It isn't always for accuracy, but for the smallest differentials in POI between loads, guns, barrels configurations, suppressed and unsuppressed, etc. It seems like much tail chasing at times, but it's not without interesting data points.

I've been trying to get my roomie into reloading by pointing out to her that it is the single nerdiest firearms-related activity there is. :D

[BLR]

I've been trying to get my roomie into reloading by pointing out to her that it is the single nerdiest firearms-related activity there is. :D

You are obviously unfamiliar with long range rifle shooting.

Ah, the equations. The modeling. The details. The numbers. The preparation. 'Tis heavenly.

[Clusterfrack]

You are obviously unfamiliar with long range rifle shooting.

Ah, the equations. The modeling. The details. The numbers. The preparation. 'Tis heavenly.

+1

[Al T.]

You are obviously unfamiliar with long range rifle shooting.

I dunno, benchrest shooters are pretty much neck-and-neck.

[DanH]

A friend of mine enjoys reloading enough that his shooting has become mostly incidental to making the ammo. An OCD type, he spends his time researching, tweaking, shooting, and refining. It isn't always for accuracy, but for the smallest differentials in POI between loads, guns, barrels configurations, suppressed and unsuppressed, etc. It seems like much tail chasing at times, but it's not without interesting data points.

This is me. So very much me. I really need to scrape together a couple grand and start my own business.

[Morbidbattlecry]

Because i'm part of the NOW generation. I could get all the reloading stuff but then i would have to figure crap out and such. Or i can just order 1000 rounds for about the same price and i don't have think about it anymore.

[Zhurdan]

Guess I planned ahead, either by accident or design. Either way, it takes me less time to reload any of the calibers I shoot than it does to track ammo down either in person or on the internetz. I call it a win/win situation.

I have a crapload of brass, a crapload of bullets and a metric crapload of primers. Guess what... you will never hear me griping about "Wal-fart" being out of ammo. My dad taught me to reload on an old Lee hand reloader and it was kind of a Dad-son kind of thing... then I met Mrs. Progressive Press. I shot more rifle than anyone in three counties. Learned a lot from it. Just wish I'd have started with the pistol sooner. :D

[LHS]

Because i'm part of the NOW generation. I could get all the reloading stuff but then i would have to figure crap out and such. Or i can just order 1000 rounds for about the same price and i don't have think about it anymore.

I'm incredibly cheap. I'm also fairly lazy. The former often wins, though it's an epic battle at times. I may have to spend a few hours in the shed cranking out ammo, but at least it means I'll actually shoot my .44 and 9.3x62.

Plus, in all honesty, I find the precision of measuring, metering, and making every round just so to be rather soothing. I should probably get into long-range rifle shooting.

[rob_s]

It takes me 10-15 minutes to load enough ammo for a range session, 250'ish rounds. I wake up a few minutes early and crank it out before my Friday AM range session. It's not really that time intensive ...

If my schedule is so tight that I can't spare the time to reload, I probably shouldn't be hitting the range for a few hours.

Which assumes that the only time involved is the pulling of the handle.

Sourcing components, picking up brass, dealing with equipment issues, changing recipes when your old components get scarce...

What baffles me more than why more people don't reload is why so many reloaders seem obsessed with how the rest of us source our ammo.

[JV_]

Sourcing components, picking up brass, dealing with equipment issues, changing recipes when your old components get scarce... Sweeping up brass from my range floor takes a minute or two after an 60-90 minute range session. If you shoot in grassy areas, it's clearly more work.

I don't buy ammo in small quantities, I continue that over to components. But sourcing loaded ammo isn't exactly easy either, so some of that cancels out.


why so many reloaders seem obsessed with how the rest of us source our ammo.I couldn't care less what everyone else does for their ammo needs. But people shouldn't make it sound like reloading is such a time consuming activity, it doesn't need to be.

[LittleLebowski]

Sweeping up brass from my range floor takes a minute or two after an 60-90 minute range session. If you shoot in grassy areas, it's clearly more work.


Which is why I lay out a tarp before shooting outside. I'm saving brass now because the latest ammo scare....scared me.

[BLR]

Which is why I lay out a tarp before shooting outside. I'm saving brass now because the latest ammo scare....scared me.

Each piece of brass is a dime left on the ground....

[JV_]

Each piece of brass is a dime left on the ground....If that's the going rate, I may cash out a sizable portion of my stash.

[LittleLebowski]

I get it on reloading. I'm slowly building up components and trying to learn. I think reloading will work for me. Tam, rob; rock on with you're doing. I will NOT knock at your door with pamphlets :D

[Chuck Haggard]

Each piece of brass is a dime left on the ground....

I cashed in a 55gal drum of brass a few years ago. We made $3800 off of that in just bulk recycle pricing.

[BLR]

I cashed in a 55gal drum of brass a few years ago. We made $3800 off of that in just bulk recycle pricing.

Yup.

I figure reloading buys me a custom 1911 per year in savings....for 2 days worth of work (ultra conservative estimate).

[rob_s]

I couldn't care less what everyone else does for their ammo needs.
Obviously you and the OP differ on this.


But people shouldn't make it sound like reloading is such a time consuming activity, it doesn't need to be.

I would also offer that if reloaders would stop acting like it's free ammo that magically makes itself with zero hidden or up-front costs, the non-loaders would likely stop with the "too time consuming" argument.

there is also a basic economy lesson here that gets lost on most folks. Everyone's time is worth something different, both to them and to the greater market as a whole. If an activity is worth someone's time and it's an activity they find benefit to, then they will participate in that activity.

Personally, I tried reloading and I hated range-chickening (am I there to shoot or to collect dimes?), hated running the press (whether for 15 minutes of for an hour, I'd rather eat glass), and ultimately found someone that I could pay to make the exact same load I was making myself. Yes, at a premium, but that was worth it in a major way to me to NOT have to continue to mess with loading. My time, no matter how little loaders claim it to be, is worth more than that to me. If others value their time at a lower rate, rock on with the reloading.

At matches I have actually paid people in my squad to STOP picking up brass. While not all reloaders do it, many are so busy chasing their damn dimes that they are getting in the way.

[LittleLebowski]

Meh. I'm learning the hard way to care less about what other folks say online. I do appreciate the time argument and the past year or so of my life, I've not had much time for myself but as my kids get older, I plan to invest in reloading.

[Tamara]

You are obviously unfamiliar with long range rifle shooting.

Ah, the equations. The modeling. The details. The numbers. The preparation.

...The reloading. See what I mean?

(But yes, I have previously described long-range precision shooting as "full-contact math". :D )

[ST911]

For those selling their brass, are you finding more value selling it as brass for weight to a recycler, repackaged to a reloader, or returned to a commercial reloader?

[Morbidbattlecry]

I'm incredibly cheap. I'm also fairly lazy. The former often wins, though it's an epic battle at times. I may have to spend a few hours in the shed cranking out ammo, but at least it means I'll actually shoot my .44 and 9.3x62.

Plus, in all honesty, I find the precision of measuring, metering, and making every round just so to be rather soothing. I should probably get into long-range rifle shooting.

I'm gonna be honest as i get a little older(i'm 30 now) my cheapness is really starting to come out. I think in a few more years i'll pick it up. I am often tempted to start sooner though.

[Morbidbattlecry]

For those selling their brass, are you finding more value selling it as brass for weight to a recycler, repackaged to a reloader, or returned to a commercial reloader?

I have found selling it to another reloader as the best way to get the most money. The casing is worth more then the metal its made out of. Commercial realoaders tend to get you on shipping. I recently sold 30 lbs of mixed pistol brass to someone on the internet for something like 65 dollars. But i was able to tac on shipping to that. So i didn't take a loss on shipping.

[Rich]

Reloading allowed me enough ammo to practice daily .

After learning how to reload . it became fun for me.

I was lucky enough to live most my life out in the country in IN.

My reloading bench was just a few steps away from my range.

Then later in life I got a bright idea to move to SWF , near my favorite vacation spot captiva island .

Now I must drive 10miles to a public range. The first trip there scared me and yes a few days later a man was shot.

Lets just say I don't practice as much now. and haven't been reloading in awhile. And miss IN badly.

[ares338]

I am utterly confounded as to why more people don't reload.

The cost argument used to be "I can buy 9mm as cheap as making it." That isn't true....assuming you can actually buy it. 9mm costs roughly $100/thou, 45 about $150.

Especially with all the QC issues abound.

I'm also perplexed as to why more commercial reloaders haven't sprung up.

And what I really don't get is why there are no competitors for primers and brass beyond what we have. Those aren't difficult to make, to be honest. ATK doesn't have a lock on engineers willing to work with explosives, and there must be a dozen local shops that could make cartridge cases around Dayton...well, used to be :(

Seems like a wonderful business/investment opportunity to me....

Actually, I reload because they are more accurate than factory rounds. Even when I first started reloading my loads were more accurate. At first I did a cost comparison between the two and my reloads were a little cheaper but I really don't care about that. Another plus is that in times of ammo shortages such as recently I can at least have ammo for protection. Basically reloading is my only hobby and I'm too lazy to garden!

[TumblinDown]

Basically reloading is my only hobby and I'm too lazy to garden!

If bending over is any measure of health, you're probably getting as much benefit out of reloading as you would gardening! :D

[Suvorov]

I have a brand new (well I just put 70 rounds through it) USP45c that was paid for with the brass that I have collected and carted around with me for the past 20 years. I have never started to reload yet, even though I was diligently picking up my brass. Up until recently, it really was cheaper in my eye to buy in bulk. Now I barely have time enough to shoot. But this little USP shows that even if you don't reload, it is worth picking up your brass.


For those selling their brass, are you finding more value selling it as brass for weight to a recycler, repackaged to a reloader, or returned to a commercial reloader?

Because I wanted to clear the garage out quickly, what I did was advertised on the local gun forum market place. My brass had been separated into basic caliber (didn't differentiate between 223 and 556 etc) so I advertised it by the pound with a rough approximation of round count for $3 a pound. $3 was more than what scrap dealers in my AO were offering. At that price, I had over $1000 in brass sold in under 15 minutes.

I could have probably sold it for more, but it all went to good gunnies stocking up for the big Kalifornia ammo laws and saved me a lot of hassle.

[Odin Bravo One]

It would probably not serve most folks to try to start now, given the scarcity of components.......but if you don't start now, when will you? Next ammo shortage? Next election? Next year?

I can buy 9mm & .45 projectiles for pennies if bought in bulk. By bulk, I mean, several thousand (10-20k) at a time. Powder at least 16-24 lbs at a time, and it doesn't hurt to buy primers 10-20k a pop either. Not only do I still get ammo for free at work, anything I spend on related items is also a tax write off. So while I can just help myself to whatever I want, within reason, it still makes sense to reload. I can also down load either round for economy of powder, as well as training value. The wife tires long before the end of a 500 round session. But 500 rounds of powder puff loads not only get her the reps, but also buys me another 100 rounds worth of powder. And free ammo won't be forever. I intend to have a good RDB full of ammo when the time comes there is no more rich uncle.

I'll admit that setting up each press for the exact load you want to crank out can be time consuming, but once it is set up, the economy of motion of a 650 makes 250 round sessions no more than 10-15 minutes.

I tend to spend my after dinner hours, and crappy weather days to catch up on reloading. No shortage of non-shooting, crappy weather days...........cause let's get real........I am a fair weather hobby shooter. Unless I am getting paid, I am not shooting in the rain. Or the snow. Or 100 degrees + 100% humidity. Not anymore anyway.

I have also come to realize that not only is cheaper to reload some of my more "hard to find" calibers, but has actually proven to be nearly the only way to get it. While there are plenty of ads in the WTB section of the local trader, rare is the WTS.

.300 BLK in a decent factory load doesn't exist. And the few times I have seen a decent, or rarer....high quality factory load, the prices are well beyond what I can justify paying for it.

.17 Hornet in any load is priced way beyond anything I can justify spending.

When I start spending $1.50- $2.00 per round to shoot, I'll take up golf. That is what I see folks asking/paying for .300 BLK, and nearly as much for .17 Hornet.

Currently, reloading helps keep me shooting, and from taking up golf.

[Clyde from Carolina]

I have also come to realize that not only is cheaper to reload some of my more "hard to find" calibers, but has actually proven to be nearly the only way to get it. While there are plenty of ads in the WTB section of the local trader, rare is the WTS.

.300 BLK in a decent factory load doesn't exist. And the few times I have seen a decent, or rarer....high quality factory load, the prices are well beyond what I can justify paying for it.

.17 Hornet in any load is priced way beyond anything I can justify spending.

When I start spending $1.50- $2.00 per round to shoot, I'll take up golf. That is what I see folks asking/paying for .300 BLK, and nearly as much for .17 Hornet.

Currently, reloading helps keep me shooting, and from taking up golf.

This will probably get me back into reloading before anything else does. I have a Lee Loader I need to get going to feed an old Mauser. Maybe that will kick start things.

[223AI]

I have also come to realize that not only is cheaper to reload some of my more "hard to find" calibers, but has actually proven to be nearly the only way to get it. While there are plenty of ads in the WTB section of the local trader, rare is the WTS.

.300 BLK in a decent factory load doesn't exist. And the few times I have seen a decent, or rarer....high quality factory load, the prices are well beyond what I can justify paying for it.

.17 Hornet in any load is priced way beyond anything I can justify spending.

When I start spending $1.50- $2.00 per round to shoot, I'll take up golf. That is what I see folks asking/paying for .300 BLK, and nearly as much for .17 Hornet.

Currently, reloading helps keep me shooting, and from taking up golf.

You just hit the nail on the head as to why I reload everything.

I shoot precision rifle almost exclusively, and compete with a suppressed 6.5x47L. When the factory ammo is in stock, it's ridiculously expensive, not tuned to my rifle, and woefully underpowered. My practice gun is a straight .223, set up to send pointed 82 bergers at 2900 (matches the 6.5's pretty close to 800 in drop and wind)...of which finding anything remotely close on store shelves is impossible. When I am forced to slum a lowly .308, I can at least hot rod 155's to 2950 and make up for at least some of the garbage that is 308 ballistics.

Along the same lines, I work my tail off, have two young kids...one of which has a bad fishing habit, so we just bought a boat to facilitate...and I need every ounce of performance that I can squeeze out of my ammo/rifles come competition time. My time is limited, and I want my ammo to be the last thing that I worry about when I am running through a PRS match.

The upshot is that it is remarkably cheaper to reload AND make significantly more effective ammo The downside is that I have limited time with which to load, so I am set-up with efficiency in mind: I throw powder with a Prometheus Gen 2 and can have a charge accurate to the kernel of powder within 8-10 seconds, I use a co-ax press so I know my ammo is as concentric as possible, I trim on a Giraud trimmer, and I prime cases with an RCBS hand primer. All said, I can have 1 loaded precision rifle round complete within 10-15 seconds. Good components make or break it for me.

Now I am in possession of a Ned Christiansen 1911, and am eyeballing a Square Deal....God help me.

[ares338]

For me reloading is a hobby. It is relaxing and I get to go off and be by myself for a while. The biggest benefit however is the improved accuracy of my reloads. Not necessarily with the self defense rounds but definitely better than the factory target rounds. I know I save a little money but that is of little consequence to me at this stage of the game. I did a cost analysis once now I don't really care. IT's fun and I even enjoy picking up my brass on my private range ( it's nice not to share space with dangerous idiots ).