Why one cop carries 145 rounds

[JodyH]

Interesting article on capacity.
http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/
17 hits from 33 rounds aint bad shooting when you start behind the curve.
It's against internet wisdom to go "down" from .45 to 9mm after a spectacular failure to stop.

[Chuck Haggard]

That's because "internet wisdom" most often ain't.

If this had been a failure of a 9mm or .40 to stop the bad guy then lots of people would be making noise that it was another case of "you need .45!!!!!". I note that when the .45 fails, and it does way more than people think, the .45 advocates are often quiet or filing it under "shit happens".

The fact is that all service pistol calibers suck at stopping really motivated people unless you brain them. But we already knew that.

[wilco423]

Then I told myself, ‘Hey, I need to slow down and aim better.’ ”
My take away from the article. You can carry all the rounds in the world, but shot placement still wins gunfights.

[jlw]

One should carry both an AR and an 870 physically on their person at all times for just such instances... thus sayeth the interweb.

[Suvorov]

Great read! Going up on my FB page. A lot to think about and absorb. First, it clearly states the need for as much ammo as you can carry, second it just adds more fuel to the 9mm vs 40 vs 45 debate. Lastly, it shows that when the chips are down, it is the ability to think clearly and apply the fundamentals of marksmanship that saves the day.

[justintime]

One should carry both an AR and an 870 physically on their person at all times for just such instances... thus sayeth the interweb.

do you not already do this? :p ;)

[TGS]

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?7807-Well-that-s-one-way-to-come-to-a-decision-about-caliber

[David Armstrong]

Probably worth pointing out that he did solve the problem with the ammo he was carrying on him at the time and had 14 rounds left over, so not sure why another 100 rounds that he didn't need would have made that much difference.

[Lon]

My take away from the article. You can carry all the rounds in the world, but shot placement still wins gunfights.

This. We just had a OIS at work the other day with an armed robber/kidnapper where this was key. After a foot chase, one of our guys started shooting at the bad guy on the move from @50 ft (bad guy was actively shooting at two other officers at the time). He realized he was missing and later told me that he consciously thought "I need to slow down, watch the front sight and squeeze". So he put the front sight between bad guys shoulder blades, tried to slow his breathing and squeezed. He put a 124 gr +P Gold Dot into suspects back and the bad guy went down like a sack of potatoes. The elusive one shot stop. :p

Found out later the bullet hit the suspect's scapula and got diverted into his L1 vertebra. From what our guys said he locked up like he was tased and went straight down. Didn't get his hands up or anything to stop his fall. Just bounced his head off the pavement.

The bad guy survived and was outta the hospital in 2 days. The bullet is still in him, which is unfortunate cuz I wanted to see what the bullet looked like.

[jlw]

Probably worth pointing out that he did solve the problem with the ammo he was carrying on him at the time and had 14 rounds left over, so not sure why another 100 rounds that he didn't need would have made that much difference.

That wouldn't result in this much discussion. :)

[ToddG]

Didn't get his hands up or anything to stop his fall. Just bounced his head off the pavement.

... six or seven times. Or at least that's how to report got written. :cool:

Kidding, of course. Good job by your guy. I hope the other officers were unscathed.

[BLR]

“Blessed are those who, in the face of death, think only about the front sight.” Jeff Cooper. That Cooper coined this idea is not likely, as I'm sure some archery instructor in Egypt 5000 years ago uttered something similar. And Larry Vickers has a similar one with "Speed is fine, accuracy is final."

Though, I can't imagine how difficult that is to do while someone is banging away at you.

[JHC]

Probably worth pointing out that he did solve the problem with the ammo he was carrying on him at the time and had 14 rounds left over, so not sure why another 100 rounds that he didn't need would have made that much difference.

But I understand the thinking. I don't have any ultimate experience "seeing the elephant" but in just a handful of tricky scenes near small elephants, I got the desire for as much "kit" as one could possibly carry. ;) Like the one armed deputy in "Unforgiven". I wonder what Jim Cirillo's load out would be on the stakeout job today. That might be a thread.

If Cirillo was on a new stakeout squad today, what would be his basic load? Maybe too easy. I'm thinking G21/G20 with G30/G29 backup and four spare mags, a G27 on his ankle and a SBR 6.8 SPC AR with EOT and I don't know how many rifle mags.

[David Armstrong]

That wouldn't result in this much discussion. :)
Yeah, I know. Just like to point out the obvious every now and then as that seems to sometimes get lost.

[ToddG]

I'd imagine the officer in question used to think, holy cow, I'll never come close to needing all the ammo on my belt! Then he got into a fight with just one guy who needed multiple magazines worth of ammo to put down. While overly simplistic to be sure, it's not hard to see the base logic in "33 shots per bad guy = 6 magazines to deal with two or three evildoers."

Having too much ammo costs you nothing. Having too little, on the other hand...

[David Armstrong]

from JHC:
But I understand the thinking. I don't have any ultimate experience "seeing the elephant" but in just a handful of tricky scenes near small elephants, I got the desire for as much "kit" as one could possibly carry.
I don't understand the thinking. I've always had trouble understanding the reasoning that says "I was able to do the job with what I had and could have continued doing the job with what I had because I still had some left, so that means I must not have had enough and now need to have more" particularlylwhen we find almost everyone else is able to do the job with less. It's cool to carry lots of stuff around, but at what cost? Most of the LE job is not getting into extended gunfights, it is moving, running, climbing and so on. Balance is the key, and when one gets off-balance and focuses on one aspect of the job instead of the job as a whole I really question the reasoning. YMMV.

[David Armstrong]

I'd imagine the officer in question used to think, holy cow, I'll never come close to needing all the ammo on my belt! Then he got into a fight with just one guy who needed multiple magazines worth of ammo to put down. While overly simplistic to be sure, it's not hard to see the base logic in "33 shots per bad guy = 6 magazines to deal with two or three evildoers."

Having too much ammo costs you nothing. Having too little, on the other hand...
Having too much ammo DOES cost you, that is part of the issue. Added weight reduces speed, impacts movement, and a host of other factors. Far more to the job than gunfights, and reducing the efficiency of those things may lead you to a position where you have to start shooting when you might not otherwise.

[ToddG]

Admittedly, I'll be surprised if the guy goes the rest of his career carrying six spare mags (two of them 33rd). But compared to the guy who normally just carries two spares, how much extra weight is this guy really lugging around? A hundred rounds of ammo and four magazines probably doesn't hit four pounds.

[Chuck Haggard]

A couple of times I have been in the water and was worried about having a 5906, a 6906, three mags and two knives on me, along with the huge brick of a radio we used to carry. two sets of cuffs, etc.

Other than that, not so much.


I found out that most vests actually float due to being sealed up against sweat, so that was a plus.

[JHC]

when one gets off-balance and focuses on one aspect of the job instead of the job as a whole I really question the reasoning. YMMV.

But why presume the officer in the OP or anyone else for that matter is getting out of balance just from adding some mags? He could be hitting the Krav Maga daily too for all we know.

[David Armstrong]

Admittedly, I'll be surprised if the guy goes the rest of his career carrying six spare mags (two of them 33rd). But compared to the guy who normally just carries two spares, how much extra weight is this guy really lugging around? A hundred rounds of ammo and four magazines probably doesn't hit four pounds.
IIRC a loaded 9mm mag for the 17 is approx 10 ounces. But it is not the extra weight, IMO, it is the cumulative weight. An extra 40 ounces isn't much, but when you are already carrying 20 pounds of gear it adds up by the end of the shift.

[David Armstrong]

But why presume the officer in the OP or anyone else for that matter is getting out of balance just from adding some mags? He could be hitting the Krav Maga daily too for all we know.
By off balance I was referring to his focus on the job itself, adressing one segment to the possible detriment of another segment. But added weight is added weight. It may impact one officer more or less than another officer depending on physical conditioning, size, etc. but it does add weight, it does take up room. Is it a good investment on the officer's part with his limited resources. We are already seeing a lot of officers that no longer carry a nightstick, for example, because they need the room for another mag, or a cell phone holder, or a (fill in the blamk). Given the usefullness of a stick is giving up the stick for a spare mag, for example, a good trade?

[jlw]

A little bit of weight can make a lot of difference over a long shift; however, how it is distributed also is a key factor. My previous agency issued the S&W 4006 for the first seven years I was there. We used the Safariland 070 holster. We then switched to Glocks and stayed with the 070. The weight savings was significant. However, when I went to the SO and could choose my own gear, I found that other holster attachment styles certainly made a difference. The attachment for the 070 pretty much hangs the pistol off of the belt as dead weight whereas the attachment loop of the ALS/SLS holsters do a much better job of distributing the weight.

I'm curious to know exactly how he is carrying all his gear.

[TGS]

I don't understand the thinking. I've always had trouble understanding the reasoning that says "I was able to do the job with what I had and could have continued doing the job with what I had because I still had some left, so that means I must not have had enough and now need to have more" particularlylwhen we find almost everyone else is able to do the job with less. It's cool to carry lots of stuff around, but at what cost? Most of the LE job is not getting into extended gunfights, it is moving, running, climbing and so on. Balance is the key, and when one gets off-balance and focuses on one aspect of the job instead of the job as a whole I really question the reasoning. YMMV.

I mentioned this in the original thread, and it was chalked up to being an irresponsible cop putting himself in unnecessary dangerous positions.

I also agree with you about the cumalitive weight aspect. Using the viewpoint of "its only 4lbs extra" can quickly lead to an avalanche of extra gear.

[JHC]

By off balance I was referring to his focus on the job itself, adressing one segment to the possible detriment of another segment. But added weight is added weight. It may impact one officer more or less than another officer depending on physical conditioning, size, etc. but it does add weight, it does take up room. Is it a good investment on the officer's part with his limited resources. We are already seeing a lot of officers that no longer carry a nightstick, for example, because they need the room for another mag, or a cell phone holder, or a (fill in the blamk). Given the usefullness of a stick is giving up the stick for a spare mag, for example, a good trade?

OK I'm tracking.

[Chuck Haggard]

Talking to Alexis Artwohl, and reading this book at her recommendation; http://www.amazon.com/Descartes-Error-Emotion-Reason-Human/dp/014303622X made a huge difference in how I view some of this stuff.

The copper in the OP had what anyone could describe as a strong emotional experience. His adding extra ammo to his load out makes sense to me, adding the 33 round mags does not. I only go so far in pushing against behavior that I see as unfounded in logic as I have come to realize that Descarte was in fact in error.

How many people do you know that fear snakes, or spiders? Are those logical feelings? Nope, but I tend to leave it be.

Taking a more laid back approach to my then girflfriend now wife when she hit me with "handguns are evil and only made to kill people" led to her eventually owning her own guns and having a CCW permit.

Homie wants to carry that much ammo? OK, no skin off my butt.

I think back to when I was considered a gun crazed radical for carrying three speedloaders on my belt and a snubby for a BUG.

[TGS]

Talking to Alexis Artwohl, and reading this book at her recommendation; http://www.amazon.com/Descartes-Error-Emotion-Reason-Human/dp/014303622X made a huge difference in how I view some of this stuff.

The copper in the OP had what anyone could describe as a strong emotional experience. His adding extra ammo to his load out makes sense to me, adding the 33 round mags does not. I only go so far in pushing against behavior that I see as unfounded in logic as I have come to realize that Descarte was in fact in error.

How many people do you know that fear snakes, or spiders? Are those logical feelings? Nope, but I tend to leave it be.

Taking a more laid back approach to my then girflfriend now wife when she hit me with "handguns are evil and only made to kill people" led to her eventually owning her own guns and having a CCW permit.

Homie wants to carry that much ammo? OK, no skin off my butt.

I think back to when I was considered a gun crazed radical for carrying three speedloaders on my belt and a snubby for a BUG.

I don't think anyone here is upset, offended, losing sleep or otherwise perturbed over this dudes decision to carry an ammo loadout near that of a soldier. I thought we were just discussing the efficacy or logic of such.

I mean, he might have to shoot an escaped rhino one day. Would it then be logical to carry a .416 Rigby simply because of one exceptionally extreme situation?

[Lon]

I mean, he might have to shoot an escaped rhino one day. Would it then be logical to carry a .416 Rigby simply because of one exceptionally extreme situation?

Not sure about a rhino, but I carry some slugs for situations like this:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/19/us/ohio-animals-on-loose

We've got some guys just outside my jurisdiction that have some of these same exotic animals. Be prepared. :cool:

I've read the report on the linked incident. .233 just didn't cut it.

[Chuck Haggard]

We have a plan for a zoo escape because we have elephants, apes, lions, tigers and bears.

I know where the .458 is kept, but I don't carry it with me.

I think I was agreeing that the load out in this case is excessive.

[jlw]

We have a plan for a zoo escape because we have elephants, apes, lions, tigers and bears.

I know where the .458 is kept, but I don't carry it with me.

I think I was agreeing that the load out in this case is excessive.

On my last day at my prior agency, we had a monkey bite of a persons thumb. This wasn't long after the person was mauled by a similar critter, and not too long before that incident in OH where all of the big critters were turned loose.

Thankfully we have a citizen who can help us out with some crew served items if needed. :)

[Mr_White]

If Cirillo was on a new stakeout squad today, what would be his basic load? Maybe too easy. I'm thinking G21/G20 with G30/G29 backup and four spare mags, a G27 on his ankle and a SBR 6.8 SPC AR with EOT and I don't know how many rifle mags.

He addresses this exact question at the end of Guns, Bullets, and Gunfights. IIRC, he said he would use a G21 as primary and G23 as backup. I don't remember him getting into spare mags or long guns. I will have to check later when the book is handy.