Why the P30

[LangdonTactical]

For me the P30 seems to be the gun that I can really hang my hat on for now. It is very reliable, kind of scary reliable, and very accurate. The LEM trigger is the best of both worlds for me and I really like an external hammer on any gun that I carry AIWB. I now have three P30s and two of them are set up exactly the same way. The only thing I have done to either gun is put the TLG trigger set up in there and change the sights. I have taken the sharp edges off the back corner of the hammer on the gun I shoot the most, as it does tap my hand just a little every once in a while (I grip the gun very high and the extra skin in the webbing of my hand sometime builds up just enough to get in the path of the hammer).

This is the only gun I have shot this much that I did not feel like I needed to make several adjustment to in order to be happy with it.

I would like to have a higher capacity magazine for it, maybe a slightly shorter reset on the trigger, but neither of those things are deal breakers in any way what so ever. So it may very well be the best gun on the market right now.

Glocks are great guns, but they are striker fired guns, so I would need one of Todd's devices to even go down that road. Also, the frame needs lots of modifications to keep that trigger guard from eating my middle finger alive. I would also need some kind of add on beaver tail in order to not bleed when I shoot the gun.

M&Ps are also great guns. But like the Glock, striker fired and really a fully cocked striker for sure. I have a .40 and a .357 sig that are tack drivers and I shoot them really well. I have also cracked two barrels on the 9mm guns and cannot seem to get a 9mm to run 100% and still be accurate. It's is either failure to extract, failure to feed, or 10" groups at 25yards. I am sure it can be done, but I have also seen many people that say they have cracked the code only to have horrible failure to extract issues out of the blue.

1911s, love them and have more of them in the safe than any other single gun type. But I am a 9mm fan and one of the reasons I like 9mm is capacity. That is pretty much all I need to say about that I think. unless I am going to start carrying some kind of STI or SVI??? Plus I think my P30 recoils less than a full size 1911 9mm. I also like the trigger on the P30 better.

Beretta 92s. Still shoot that gun better than anything else. But they are heavy, big and lack any real options for sights. I also know that I cannot expect to put 90 or 100K through the gun without any major parts replacement like I expect our of my P30s. Even replacing all those major part it might just give up somewhere that makes it a paperweight. Plus, Beretta is another company the just refuses to listen to any of their customers about what they want. They want to stop making that gun so badly they just don't know what to do. But instead of doing what people want done to it, they keep putting little patches here and there and all their real efforts go into guns that no one wants.

Sigs Classics. Like the gun and shoot it well. But for the last say 6 or 8 years, you just don't know what your going to get from that company. I am sure TLG could give specifics on when it started, but once they started really trying to build the guns for less so the could compete on price point, weird things started to break on those guns.

I just don't see any other real options out there for me. So for now, I will stick to the P30 and just have fun shooting :)

[ToddG]

Embarrassingly this is the only video I have of Ernest shooting his P30, I think:


http://youtu.be/09nDD5-PW_4

One thing I haven't seen yet is Ernest Langdon teaching a class with a P30. I'd love to see that... :cool:

[LangdonTactical]

One thing I haven't seen yet is Ernest Langdon teaching a class with a P30. I'd love to see that... :cool:

Coming soon I hope. If Scott would just get back to me an approve my dates???

[JHC]

:o Editted to remove the congratulatory tone thinking it was a newish shooter that was sharing their process of choosing their pistol. [a pistol I've sampled lightly and found just "OK"].

[Spr1]

Coming soon I hope. If Scott would just get back to me an approve my dates???

I'm in!

[Up1911Fan]

Glocks are great guns, but they are striker fired guns, so I would need one of Todd's devices to even go down that road.

Todd has a Langdon barrel, just sayin...

[JonInWA]

Gen4 Glocks are now shipping with 4 backstraps-2 "normal" and 2 beavertail. Just sayin'.

Best, Jon

[JSGlock34]

Coming soon I hope. If Scott would just get back to me an approve my dates???

Glad to hear you'll be offering classes again. I learned a great deal in your Advanced Pistol course (AAR here (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1065-AAR-Ernest-Langdon-Advanced-Pistol-Class-21-22-August-2010-Culpeper-VA)) and look forward to repeating the experience.

[YVK]

For me the P30 seems to be the gun that I can really hang my hat on for now. It is very reliable, kind of scary reliable, and very accurate. The LEM trigger is the best of both worlds for me and I really like an external hammer on any gun that I carry AIWB. I now have three P30s and two of them are set up exactly the same way. The only thing I have done to either gun is put the TLG trigger set up in there and change the sights. I have taken the sharp edges off the back corner of the hammer on the gun I shoot the most, as it does tap my hand just a little every once in a while (I grip the gun very high and the extra skin in the webbing of my hand sometime builds up just enough to get in the path of the hammer).



What back strap and side panel size are you using, Ernest? Reason I am asking is this: I just pulled out mine from a holster, cleared it and I've been sitting wondering how it is possible to get your strong hand so high that you get a hammer bite? I can't even if I tried.

I second everyone on you getting back to teaching. I'd make a flight again in no time.

[Haraise]

1911s, love them and have more of them in the safe than any other single gun type. But I am a 9mm fan and one of the reasons I like 9mm is capacity. That is pretty much all I need to say about that I think. unless I am going to start carrying some kind of STI or SVI???

It's not that far fetched (my 17+1 9mm carry gun):

http://i50.tinypic.com/2a7epeu.jpg

(You can go smaller in grip to get a more G19/P30 length, go without the RMR, or without a threaded barrel, of course)

[LangdonTactical]

What back strap and side panel size are you using, Ernest? Reason I am asking is this: I just pulled out mine from a holster, cleared it and I've been sitting wondering how it is possible to get your strong hand so high that you get a hammer bite? I can't even if I tried.

I second everyone on you getting back to teaching. I'd make a flight again in no time.

I run the large back strap with the small side panels. I have tried several different combos over the year or so that I have been running the P30 and that seems to he the best combo for me. I have pretty big hands, so that may be the issue, and I grip guns very, very high! I have to radius the back of the slide on Berettas or they will cut me as well. I had the same issue with hammer bite on my Sig 220s when I was shooting those. I would put a really big radius on those hammers as well.

Thanks for the vote on teaching. I am looking forward to it for sure.

[LangdonTactical]

It's not that far fetched (my 17+1 9mm carry gun):

http://i50.tinypic.com/2a7epeu.jpg

(You can go smaller in grip to get a more G19/P30 length, go without the RMR, or without a threaded barrel, of course)

That is a really cool looking gun. The issue I have there is I have already been down that road. Long story, but lets just say it does not make you happy when you outshoot your own $2000 STI with a $600 Beretta :(

[JHC]

:o Editted to remove the congratulatory tone thinking it was a newish shooter that was sharing their process of choosing their pistol. [a pistol I've sampled lightly and found just "OK"].

Just a bump to display my edit and shame. ;)

[Comedian]

That is a really cool looking gun. The issue I have there is I have already been down that road. Long story, but lets just say it does not make you happy when you outshoot your own $2000 STI with a $600 Beretta :(

The same for me. My $1800 STI Tactical in 9mm was getting outdone by my $800 Sig P226.

[Dagga Boy]

I'm with Mr. Langdon on this one for many of the same reasons, but let me add a couple.

As noted, the guns work. I now have 6, and they all run without issues and pretty much are consistent. The only issue is I have not gotten my prefered sight set up of a 10-8 rear and Dawson front on all of them. I shoot much better with that combo over the factory sights.

People management. While I no longer really do this daily for a living, I have not only had several thousand folks at the end of a pistol during my time as an LEO, but have also seen what happens when people manage a crisis with a pistol in hand in dynamic, chaotic, stressful encounters with a lot of rapidly changing inputs. I like a trigger with a lot of take up for working these situations. In the past take up was combined with weight and a change of actions which made the shooting side of the equation tough if the situation ever got to the shooting part. I have only had to shoot two of the thousands I have had at the end of a gun and I am a statistic of a couple percent. I love the LEM (especially the TLG set up) for a defensive carry pistol or one that is used in the "prisoner taking business" instead of the "gunfighting business".

Additionally, on a hammer fired gun used with visually verified presentation, you can "see" your trigger press when your vision is tunneling and your ability to feel is lessening. With the LEM, you can also see your reset. I like this. Not a deal breaker over a striker fired pistol, but a simple plus in my mind.

Magazines work. I have a ton of them and have yet to have to dump any due to causing malfunctions or spring weakness issues. This has been a good thing as they can hard to find at times.

They work well in the entire cycle of operation.....by far the most consistent extracting and ejecting modern polymer pistol out there right now.

Good size. They seem to simply fit everyone well and a very good balance of a duty sized gun that can be easily carried concealed. They also seem to be able to attain that mythical "Browning HiPower feel". You can tailor them to that just right feel and attain proper alignment with them. I have also found that the way the guns feel in your hand helps for retention shooting. I have shot some amazing groups from retention with mine that I attribute to how I have my grips set up and the feel of them (I use small all the way around).

They are the most consistently, mechanically accurate 9mm's out there compared to the competition. They all seem to be tack drivers.

You also get the benefit as being seen as a sophisticated individual with exceptional taste in fine things...like HK's....:cool:

While there are certainly negatives to the P30, I feel the positives far outweigh them. The LEM took me a good bit of time to really "get", but I shoot them well now.

[BLR]

They also seem to be able to attain that mythical "Browning HiPower feel".

Ummm, P35s are real. :cool:

[Wayne Dobbs]

First of all, it's great to see Ernest Langdon here. His body of work in defensive firearms training speaks for itself and I hope we see lots of input here from him.

As Nyeti's business and training partner, I've come to be astounded by the P30 and its reliability and accuracy. The aforementioned features that enable threat management at a higher level than the striker guns become apparent the more you work with them. After enduring extraction related problems with several Glocks and later being one of Randy Lee's beta testers for his Glock extractor, I started testing other popular service pistol's extraction function with a more critical and discerning eye. It was not an encouraging journey. Most of the popular polymer service guns display varying levels of unsatisfactory extractor function. Most of these guns eject by use of the feed stack in the magazine due to that poor extractor function, which results in fired cases being presented to ejectors in varying attitudes or in bad cases, not being held by the extractor at all when it's time for ejection to take place. The P30 is an extreme exception to this poor paradigm.

In some serious testing that we did on P30 extractor function we found what all service pistols should be providing: consistent, excellent (and I should say perfect) function. In one test segment, we did 75 consecutive test shots with no failures and consistent ejection to the same spot. The test is conducted with a loaded chamber and no magazine on board. The shot is fired and the extraction/ejection performance is noted. The fired case should eject OUTSIDE the pistol and to a relatively consistent location. They should NOT eject down the magazine well or trap between the breech face and barrel hood. That's what should happen. The fact is that most of the popular polymer guns don't do this and are in fact running on the ragged edge with regard to extractor/ejector function. Go and try your favorite one out and see what you experience. It's not confidence inspiring.

Despite the price, the P30 set up with a LEM trigger seems to be about as good as it gets in today's service pistol market.

[TCinVA]

Interesting note about extraction there, Mr. Dobbs. That's something most people won't ever understand.

[JohnN]

The only thing I have done to either gun is put the TLG trigger set up in there and change the sights. I have taken the sharp edges off the back corner of the hammer on the gun I shoot the most, as it does tap my hand just a little every once in a while (I grip the gun very high and the extra skin in the webbing of my hand sometime builds up just enough to get in the path of the hammer).


Likewise, I found the large back-strap to give me the best results but seemed to start bleeding within 10 rounds. Changed to the medium back-strap with large side panels and had no further issues with hammer bite.

[Dagga Boy]

Let me further expand on the extraction issue. People often criticize, or question, Wayne and I about how much importance we place on these pistols working well during the entire cycle of operation. Specifically, "why is extraction performance so important when my xxxxx pistol ejects okay when I have a magazine in it", and "who cares where the brass goes....it only hits me in the face once in awhile". The way a pistol extracts and ejects is not as important when you standing upright in a solid two handed firing grip and slaying evil cardboard and paper Goblins under blue skies and cotton ball clouds with nary a care in the world. When your pistol is literally running on the ragged edge of extractor performance under these conditions, think about how it will being working when you are laying in a gutter covered in blood, injured, and firing one handed (maybe your support hand, or with only a few fingers of the support hand). I really do not want to be clearing a failure to extract malfunction under these conditions. If that is not a worry, then it is irrelevant. I tend to hope for the best scenario and plan for the worst. I have sold off all but one of my Glock pistols that has poor extraction issues and replaced them with P30's. I still have more Glocks, but the numbers are getting close. I didn't think anything would move me away from Glock 9mm's pistols, the extraction issues have.

[YVK]

Nice explanation, Wayne.
There has to be some sort of Murphy's law here, as I got hit in the eye pro during my previous session, and nearly hit today. Those are the first two instances in almost 18K rounds. Perhaps I need to clean the extractor and its channel.

[Spr1]

My range beater had a failure to extract with a WW case about the same round count. I was cleaning the extractor hook area with a stiff Nylon brush at each cleaning, however, once I got the extractor out, it was evident my cleaning was not complete there and the channel had enough build up to prevent full inward travel. I have not had a problem since.

[JHC]

Let me further expand on the extraction issue. People often criticize, or question, Wayne and I about how much importance we place on these pistols working well during the entire cycle of operation. Specifically, "why is extraction performance so important when my xxxxx pistol ejects okay when I have a magazine in it", and "who cares where the brass goes....it only hits me in the face once in awhile". The way a pistol extracts and ejects is not as important when you standing upright in a solid two handed firing grip and slaying evil cardboard and paper Goblins under blue skies and cotton ball clouds with nary a care in the world. When your pistol is literally running on the ragged edge of extractor performance under these conditions, think about how it will being working when you are laying in a gutter covered in blood, injured, and firing one handed (maybe your support hand, or with only a few fingers of the support hand). I really do not want to be clearing a failure to extract malfunction under these conditions. If that is not a worry, then it is irrelevant. I tend to hope for the best scenario and plan for the worst. I have sold off all but one of my Glock pistols that has poor extraction issues and replaced them with P30's. I still have more Glocks, but the numbers are getting close. I didn't think anything would move me away from Glock 9mm's pistols, the extraction issues have.

Well unless most of our SOCOM gunfighters never use their pistols in these tough situations; the commonly used pistols must be working well.

[Shellback]

Despite the price, the P30 set up with a LEM trigger seems to be about as good as it gets in today's service pistol market.

I ran into one of our local gun stores the other day and the P30 was priced over $1k, ouch!

I know it's subjective and different for everyone but how difficult was it to transition to the magazine release of the P30? Any other HK owners please add your input as well.

[JHC]

I ran into one of our local gun stores the other day and the P30 was priced over $1k, ouch!

I know it's subjective and different for everyone but how difficult was it to transition to the magazine release of the P30? Any other HK owners please add your input as well.

From just a couple of boxes through a rental - my conclusion was I wish every pistol used that trigger guard paddle. Better mousetrap. And I'm just "meh" about the shooting experience overall.

[BoppaBear]

I ran into one of our local gun stores the other day and the P30 was priced over $1k, ouch!

I know it's subjective and different for everyone but how difficult was it to transition to the magazine release of the P30? Any other HK owners please add your input as well.

I didn't find it hard. I switched from Sigs primarily, to HKs, a few years ago. The P30 was my first.

I don't have tiny hands, but they are definitely not large. For me, the 1911-style, "button", releases make me break my strong hand grip ever so slightly, in order to actuate. Not a huge issue, but HKs fix that for me. With the exception of the P239, all other Sigs, and all Glocks, require some of adjustment for me to get my thumb to the release.

My first pistol was an SW99, which had the paddle release. I didn't know it back then (was in school and couldn't afford to shoot it), but I prefer the paddle.

Some use a different technique, citing safety concerns, reach, etc., but I use my trigger finger to actuate. It is the quickest and most efficient means, for me, of hitting the mag release. After hitting it, my trigger finger immediately indexes back on the frame/slide, and waits for the reload to complete, etc.

All this said, what draws most people to the P30 initially, are the ergonomics.


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[Shellback]

Thanks for the input gents.

[TCinVA]

I ran into one of our local gun stores the other day and the P30 was priced over $1k, ouch!

I know it's subjective and different for everyone but how difficult was it to transition to the magazine release of the P30? Any other HK owners please add your input as well.

I didn't find it to be a problem at all...but I had spent time with the USP and the Walther P99 prior, so it wasn't an unfamiliar arrangement to me. I switch between using conventional mag releases and the paddles on my P30 without conscious thought at this point.

[1slow]

When I shoot the P30 9mm, HK45, I use the same thumb position to eject mags I use with Glocks etc. I do not think about the paddle, i just place my thumb and eject the mag. This is not the fastest way but I do not have to think about which pistol I am shooting. This may be chance or hand size but it is consistent.

[Shellback]

Do people typically use their strong hand thumb with the paddle or their shooter finger?

I have no experience with the paddle type so I apologize if the questions are basic knowledge that I'm unaware of.

Also, if this is too far off topic I can start a new thread.

[Clyde from Carolina]

Great thread. The info. on extraction is interesting and something for us all to consider.

I still haven't tried a P30 but the LEM and the hammer for AIWB and the stupid reliability are winning me over big-time to my P2000 for concealed carry. I love the size and consider it a (for me) product-improved Glock 19. My previous experience with USPs for duty use was positive in the extreme and the better ergonomics of the 2000 series (and the fanboys here whom I respect so highly) have sent me back to HK land with no regrets.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Do people typically use their strong hand thumb with the paddle or their shooter finger?

I have no experience with the paddle type so I apologize if the questions are basic knowledge that I'm unaware of.

Also, if this is too far off topic I can start a new thread.
I've ran the P30 since 2009 and use the 'shooter finger' to actuate the mag release.

[TGS]

Do people typically use their strong hand thumb with the paddle or their shooter finger?

I have no experience with the paddle type so I apologize if the questions are basic knowledge that I'm unaware of.

Also, if this is too far off topic I can start a new thread.

Typically, the trigger finger. The paddle is farther forward, being on the trigger guard whereas a button usually is on the edge of the grip behind the trigger guard, so using a thumb would be quite a stretch for most people.

With that said, before I put an extended HK45c mag release on my P2000, I used both my thumb and trigger finger together, as I could reach with both and the extra leverage was needed with the standard, nubby HK paddle of yesteryear. Totally not applicable to the monster-truck sized paddle on the P30, but just figured I'd mention it.

[TCinVA]

I tend to pinch with thumb and index finger, too. It's not really necessary but it costs me nothing to do and it's sure to work, so why not.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Typically, the trigger finger. The paddle is farther forward, being on the trigger guard whereas a button usually is on the edge of the grip behind the trigger guard, so using a thumb would be quite a stretch for most people.

With that said, before I put an extended HK45c mag release on my P2000, I used both my thumb and trigger finger together, as I could reach with both and the extra leverage was needed with the standard, nubby HK paddle of yesteryear. Totally not applicable to the monster-truck sized paddle on the P30, but just figured I'd mention it.
How do you use both thumb and index without breaking your grip? Curious.

[BoppaBear]

I think it's a mixed bag on how certain people actuate the mag release, but would wager many use their thumb as that's the muscle memory akin to many other weapons Trigger finger is just more natural for me.

I've even heard a couple guys say that they use their strong hand middle fingers, but I would figure that's few and far between.

The concerns with using the trigger finger are mainly related to the release's proximity to the trigger and potential NDs, especially under stress. Also, for people that have a hard time with Rule #2, it's probably not the best method.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[TGS]

How do you use both thumb and index without breaking your grip? Curious.

Oh, no, don't get me wrong.....I would have to break my grip to do such, requiring the same amount of rotation as a conventional thumb-to-button method. I considered the reliable ejection of the magazine preferable to not shifting my grip and having an unreliable method, as I don't have enough leverage to use only my trigger finger (or only my thumb, for that matter) with the older nubby paddle.

For me, this is all a non-issue with the P30 or larger HK45c mag release (fits other HKs, for those interested).

[GJM]

Are folks suggesting the HK extracts/ejects better than a Sig 226? Or, is a safer appendix pistol than a 226? Or is a better threat management tool than a 226?

I just put about 8,000 rounds thru a 2012 226 without a single anything (stoppage, malfunction/breakage) Haven't had a single anything go wrong in a G17 since I started shooting them again in April ( over 10,000 rounds, many with just one hand). During this same period, YVK has broken two trigger return springs in his "carry" P30, which is a pretty big Achilles' tendon for the P30. I think at least one NM based PF staff member also has a P30 in his safe with a broken TRS.

I think the HK P30 is a fine pistol and own 7 of them. However, in order, I measurably shoot the Glock best, then the Sig, and then finally the HK. I think something in the HK plastic case causes HK owners to drink the cool aide and start coming up with all sorts of reasons to justify them, even if they shoot other stuff better. I think part of the rub is often HK owners aren't content to just carry an HK, but have to tell us shooting other platforms how unsafe/unreliable our Glock/Sig/whatever is.

If I had a better Internet connection tonight, and wasn't so tired, I would do a Letterman style top ten reasons everything else but a P30 is junk. Gotta run and go shoot a coyote now.

[GJM]

Deleted, duplicate post on account of lousy connection

[BaiHu]

GJM,

I understand where you are coming from and as a self professed HK fanbois, I will tell you my reasons are all logic for me.
I spent a few years banging around with a Smith, CZ, Sig, FN mainly due to budget and ignorance. When I learned to shoot from professionals, I began to learn that money and a clue could buy me a gun that fit my needs and my desires.

My P30 is the only gun that allows me to properly run all features with one or two hands. Due to short fingers, I can't hit the mag or slide release on any other gun consistently and properly without breaking my grip and sometimes even requiring some support hand help.

Could I shoot a Walther better? Yes, but I like AIWB because I'm small framed and want a hammer fired pistol. Same with a Glock in addition to the aforementioned issues.

In the end, I've put almost 20k± (not a lot of rounds for some of you) through my P30s (3 over the years and currently I swapped one V3 for a V1 and looking to do the same with my remaining V3) in the last 2.5 years without a hiccup and until there is a better mouse trap for me, I'll stay with what works for me and you should do the same.

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[GJM]

GJM,

I understand where you are coming from and as a self professed HK fanbois, I will tell you my reasons are all logic for me.
I spent a few years banging around with a Smith, CZ, Sig, FN mainly due to budget and ignorance. When I learned to shoot from professionals, I began to learn that money and a clue could buy me a gun that fit my needs and my desires.

My P30 is the only gun that allows me to properly run all features with one or two hands. Due to short fingers, I can't hit the mag or slide release on any other gun consistently and properly without breaking my grip and sometimes even requiring some support hand help.

Could I shoot a Walther better? Yes, but I like AIWB because I'm small framed and want a hammer fired pistol. Same with a Glock in addition to the aforementioned issues.

In the end, I've put almost 20k± (not a lot of rounds for some of you) through my P30s (3 over the years and currently I swapped one V3 for a V1 and looking to do the same with my remaining V3) in the last 2.5 years without a hiccup and until there is a better mouse trap for me, I'll stay with what works for me and you should do the same.

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Makes perfect sense. I carried an HK for years, and I would never say it is a bad choice. Whenever YVK mentions Beretta, I tell him don't give up your P30.

I just don't like it when HK folks try to make anyone not carrying an HK feel like they have an unsafe/unreliable platform. One reason I have so many P30's is I tried to stuff them on my wife, "because her Glock wasn't as safe and reliable as an HK." She told me to go pound sand.

[LHS]

Most of you all shoot a lot more than I do lately, but bear with me.

When the P30 first hit the scene, I brushed it off as yet another clunky HK wunderpistol. I shot one of the P30S pistols a while later, and liked it. I liked it enough to consider switching primary pistols. Then I stopped to think about what it would get me, and for what price. I've been shooting Berettas for years. Ironically enough, I still frequently shoot and carry a Beretta Elite that Ernest slicked up for my dad nearly 15 years ago. I've put probably 1000 rounds per year through it in the last 10 years, and haven't had a single issue other than a broken trigger return spring a long ways back. I've got oodles of magazines for my pizza pistols, a few good holsters/mag pouches, plenty of spare parts, and multiple guns set up the way I like them. So what would the P30 get me? For the the significant outlay of new guns, mags, and gear, I'd get... a 9mm pistol that might be more reliable than my current setup, but only after putting more rounds through it than I'll likely ever fire.

For me, the P30 doesn't offer anything I truly need, that I don't already have. If I were starting over from scratch, I might be tempted to go that route. But I just can't justify dumping my current investements in time, money and training for what is at best an incremental gain.

That said, I'd take it over a Glock or M&P in a heartbeat, both for the extraction aspects that Wayne and Nyeti mentioned earlier, and for the hammer-fired action that I prefer for my uses.

[YVK]

Simple matter of margins of performance vs margins of safety and ergonomic and logistic differences, superimposed on individual priorities, preferences and backgrounds.

Ernest, thanks for the info, I played with your ergo setup and I can see how big back strap helps keeping the grip higher. I did some of my best shooting in a while today using this side panel/back strap combination.

[Dagga Boy]

I think it's a mixed bag on how certain people actuate the mag release, but would wager many use their thumb as that's the muscle memory akin to many other weapons Trigger finger is just more natural for me.

I've even heard a couple guys say that they use their strong hand middle fingers, but I would figure that's few and far between.

The concerns with using the trigger finger are mainly related to the release's proximity to the trigger and potential NDs, especially under stress. Also, for people that have a hard time with Rule #2, it's probably not the best method.


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I am very used to using my trigger finger for mag releases because of a long history with P7's, USP's and now the more modern HK series guns. With the people I trained we found the opposite on trigger finger safety. By getting the trigger finger out of the trigger guard and off the trigger, they went back to "register" rather than the trigger as the norm. On the other hand, I have witnessed more issues with people leaving a finger on the trigger while using a thumb actuated release. This really comes down to a solid training program on finger in register being the default for everything.

As far as HK vs. Sig, Glock, etc. The gun I won the most prestigious match of my life was with a P-226. I was as big a Sig fanboy as you could ever find (for many of the same reasons I like the P-30)..........until Sig decided that their Q/C wasn't very important. My agency got an order of over 20 guns in which 11 would not function (and I mean would not go bang once not function) out of the box during armorer testing prior to issue. My biggest issue was not so much that something bad happened with these guns, but the fact the when I called SIG, the "so what" attitude was not acceptable when guns shipped to a L/E agency (or anyone for that matter) have a 50% failure rate out of the box. SIG's are very popular in my current state of residence. Both when I was in California and now in Texas, I know if it was not for the work of some of the individual L/E sales reps to fix issues in the field (like replacing plastic parts with metal) for police agencies, they would have even more issues than they do now. Just look at the P-250 that had huge potential and was killed with horrific quality control. I like SIG's, have a bunch of old German guns, but I no longer trust them.

The Spawn of Satan FDE Gen 3 G-19 is what sent me away from Glock. How you screw up the Gen 3 Glock 9mm with replacing the parts in the weakest link of the Glock pistol (extraction and ejection) with sub standard MIM parts is beyond me........and then to deny there is an issue is worse. I figure at some point they will simply reverse engineer Randy Lee's fix.

For many, the P30 doesn't offer enough juice for the squeeze to switch. That was where I was with the M&P. It never got me enough positives to switch out 14 Glocks to them. The HK did give me enough of a difference to switch out about half of my 9mm Glocks for the HK's. While the P-30 is not perfect, they do work well for many folks and are very viable.

[BoppaBear]

I am very used to using my trigger finger for mag releases because of a long history with P7's, USP's and now the more modern HK series guns. With the people I trained we found the opposite on trigger finger safety. By getting the trigger finger out of the trigger guard and off the trigger, they went back to "register" rather than the trigger as the norm. On the other hand, I have witnessed more issues with people leaving a finger on the trigger while using a thumb actuated release. This really comes down to a solid training program on finger in register being the default for everything.


This is interesting, but makes sense. I would figure it was the exact opposite, and that their finger would generally take the "path of least resistance" back to trigger-land.

100% agree on the training program. To me, it's no different than the decision to carry AIWB as far as fundamentals and training.

At the end of the day, there are plenty of great options for pistol carriers out there. Some have better stats than others, and some have documented flaws. The decision as to tolerance for flaws (documented or perceived), and negative stats, comes down to our individual comfort level and what's important to us.

While I'd rather have 2 HKs than 4 Glocks, that's just me. Both are more than viable carry guns, but I've just never carried the Glock water. Just like many people and HK.

Previously I was a die hard Sig guy. That experience wasn't a bad one, and I actually made the switch to HK purely out of want for a good piece of high capacity polymer. Since Glocks have never done it for me, M&Ps were unknown territory for me at the time, and I didn't want a grip safety, HK was the front runner. Furthermore, it and the P30 had well-documented data out there and I happened to know some people that had them.





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[ToddG]

I think something in the HK plastic case causes HK owners to drink the cool aide and start coming up with all sorts of reasons to justify them, even if they shoot other stuff better. I think part of the rub is often HK owners aren't content to just carry an HK, but have to tell us shooting other platforms how unsafe/unreliable our Glock/Sig/whatever is.

GJM, I think you may want to reexamine who started this thread and his shooting experience before you suggest he's simply overwhelmed by kool-aide. A lot of the other people in this thread who indicate a preference for HKs also have more than a little experience with SIGs, Glocks, and other brands/platforms as well.

Just because it doesn't click for you doesn't mean the quality and shootability are mythical.

I don't understand how anyone can think spending a month above the Arctic Circle is vacation but I wouldn't criticize his choice. :cool:

[GJM]

GJM, I think you may want to reexamine who started this thread and his shooting experience before you suggest he's simply overwhelmed by kool-aide. A lot of the other people in this thread who indicate a preference for HKs also have more than a little experience with SIGs, Glocks, and other brands/platforms as well.

Just because it doesn't click for you doesn't mean the quality and shootability are mythical.

I don't understand how anyone can think spending a month above the Arctic Circle is vacation but I wouldn't criticize his choice. :cool:

My statement was in no way directed at the OP. He gave his reasons for the HK, and they seem logical. Suggested the pistol works for him, and he is having fun shooting it. I hope to take a class with him in the near future, and look forward to seeing him shoot the P30. What he didn't do, which often happens with those in the grasp of the HK spell, was infer that anyone shooting something else is making a mistake. I cut folks these folks some slack, as I was under that spell in the past.

I love Nyeti, and enjoy debating with him. Depending upon the week, our positions change, and half the time he is arguing for what I was the time before.

This is a doozy:

The way a pistol extracts and ejects is not as important when you standing upright in a solid two handed firing grip and slaying evil cardboard and paper Goblins under blue skies and cotton ball clouds with nary a care in the world. When your pistol is literally running on the ragged edge of extractor performance under these conditions, think about how it will being working when you are laying in a gutter covered in blood, injured, and firing one handed (maybe your support hand, or with only a few fingers of the support hand). I really do not want to be clearing a failure to extract malfunction under these conditions. If that is not a worry, then it is irrelevant.

Now, in the spirit of being open minded. I just took my Gen 4 primary, Glock 17, first 3 digits of serial # PPS, with the original Glock Gen 4 extractor outside and shot it with the Ranger 147 Bonded that was in the pistol. While I didn't cut myself to get blood on me, I did my best to make the gun bobble. Didn't shoot a single round with two hands, all one hand, left and right, standing and laying on my backside, holding the pistol with two fingers as lightly as possible. The pistol ran. Then, since I couldn't make it fail, I took the magazine out, and shot it more, right and left, holding it as lightly as I could without dropping the pistol -- the cases ejected out the port fine. I don't know, maybe the Gadget made it run better.

If I get a minute later, I will go repeat this with the 226.

[JodyH]

I was a huge Glock fan (as my safe full of them will testify) then along came the Gen3 RTF 17 from double-feed hell.
It was enough to sour me on known good Glocks.
Soured me enough to pull a like new 8 year old P2000 from the dust bunny corner of the safe and give it a try.

[ToddG]

What he didn't do, which often happens with those in the grasp of the HK spell, was infer that anyone shooting something else is making a mistake.

Understood and sorry for the mis-read on my part, then.

However, the quote above could apply to just about any popular brand. Certainly you've met Glock kool-aide drinkers. Maybe it's just because of my work history, but I've seen tons of Beretta and SIG fanboys online... folks who'd see past their favorite brand going down the toilet but quick to criticize even the smallest tool mark from a competing brand. Heck, ask Tim about the loyalty of Hi-Point advocates!

[Wayne Dobbs]

I'm just looking forward to what we get to see from Ernest on this site. I am willing to bet "thar's gold in them hills".

[GJM]

Understood and sorry for the mis-read on my part, then.

However, the quote above could apply to just about any popular brand. Certainly you've met Glock kool-aide drinkers. Maybe it's just because of my work history, but I've seen tons of Beretta and SIG fanboys online... folks who'd see past their favorite brand going down the toilet but quick to criticize even the smallest tool mark from a competing brand. Heck, ask Tim about the loyalty of Hi-Point advocates!

I have come to the conclusion, that assuming you check to make sure your sample is a good one, all the major platforms can be shot so well, that it is just a matter of picking the one with the feature set you like and works for you. For example, assuming EL gets cut by a Glock slide, and can't pry a Gadget off you, that is a good reason for passing over a Glock. In my case, my wife shoots a Glock exclusively, and since it is about the only pistol simple enough for me to work on, even when I am not north of the Arctic Circle, that is a go for me now.

I have promised myself, and hope I can follow that promise, to try not to tell others what pistol they should shoot based on what pistol I am shooting now. I have a Glock, Sig and HK bin of pistols, and don't anticipate getting rid of them anytime soon.


I'm just looking forward to what we get to see from Ernest on this site. I am willing to bet "thar's gold in them hills".

Yes, looking forward to more from him!

In the future, I would love to see EL shoot the Beretta and P30 side by side on some drills and report his results.

[BigT]

I'm just looking forward to what we get to see from Ernest on this site. I am willing to bet "thar's gold in them hills".




Amen

[Dagga Boy]

GJM, I have several samples of individual guns from many of the major manufacturers that run and shoot well. They all go through phases of business where mistakes are made. This includes HK, who had past problems with customer service instead of manufacturing issues. They have had some of those as well, but they are few. I try to look at trends with larger numbers. The fact is right now that Glock has some huge issues with extractor function. If they didn't, the APEX extractor would not exist along with the HRED's. If you have a Glock that exhibits perfect extraction and ejection through a box of ammo with no magazine in the gun, then keep it as it is quite a find. I have never seen a Glock able to do this. I still have several Glocks I won't part with. Three of them have over 50,000 rounds each of flawless performance and I would love to see all of them like this. In some cases a pistol in one caliber works well in one caliber and not others. .40's tend to be the source of this. This has affected not only Glock but HK as well. The key is how fast and what is the fix? Others have specific issues (e.g. Beretta locking blocks and P30 TRS's) that simply need to be paid attention to.

In the case of the P30, it is a gun that gives me the most features I desire at this juncture in MY life. I have different needs, expectations and wants from others. The P30 fits mine. Currently I am living in the water with daily temperatures over 120.....my P2000SK in a small fanny pack is my primary. In a couple of weeks I will be working in California.......and carrying a HK45C due to magazine laws there. I'll then go back to the P30 9mm. I am not shooting enough now to be changing trigger systems. I gave up chasing minute performance gains from different platforms to focus on a pistol that offers the biggest across the spectrum for ME, which the P30 does. It may not for others, and that is fine as it doesn't affect my life at all. I also am past getting upset if somebody shoots better than I do. There was a time in my life when I chased performance in minute increments, and I am past that with experience, and a broken body (you know its bad when loading magazines brings you to tears). I try to maintain a solid standard with my P30 and it is going well. I used to shoot a little slower with a little more accuracy with my P30 compared to my Glock. Recently, I just shot my best performance ever on our signature drill (Hardwired Tactical Shooting 2 second standards) with a P30, so it is going better with time.

[GJM]

The reason I am not selling my P30's is how much I like them -- build quality, accuracy and reliability. I also have the P2000sk companion pieces. I wouldn't be surprised if they are my primary again in the future. I do wish the TRS wasn't the issue it seems to be, as I have segregated 2 P30's with just about 1,000 rounds thru each to assure reliability, that I have reserved for carry, as I worry about the TRS on higher round count P30's.

If my sample of two recent Gen 4 17's is representative, serial # prefixe's VAC and UAX, I believe the new manufacture 17's are running like a Glock should run. Both have stock Glock extractors (as in 2013 manufacture), and I have a stash of some extra 2013 extractors in my parts box. Even in the dark days of the G4 roll out, I am not sure the 17's were ever the issue the 19's were -- which makes me wonder if the 19's slide velocity contributes to the issue. My older G4 17's also run, and have run, both before and after I upgraded to the 30274 ejector. Since I shoot the 17 way better than the 19, I am happy to stick with a 17, although I am considering having one 17 cut down to a 19 butt, to get a 19 size butt with the 17's track record for me. Than again, my Sig pistols run, so maybe I just have good luck with pistols (except M&P 9's which I can't make shoot accurately no matter what I do).

HK trivia question -- why did HK come out with the LEM? Answer, after 4 years of waiting for the variant 9 part for the HK 45, they figured they better do something. (humor)

[LangdonTactical]

In the case of the P30, it is a gun that gives me the most features I desire at this juncture in MY life. I have different needs, expectations and wants from others. The P30 fits mine.

Could have not said it better myself, that explains it exactly for me as well.

[jlw]

For me, the P30 doesn't offer anything I truly need, that I don't already have. If I were starting over from scratch, I might be tempted to go that route. But I just can't justify dumping my current investements in time, money and training for what is at best an incremental gain.

That pretty well sums up my position on the issue as well. From what little firsthand experieince that I have with the P30, I liked it, and it certainly gets high praises from those in the know; however, the economics of the situation come into play for me. It's not just the pistol but all of the support gear as well.

[ToddG]

I think LHS's point is insightful but at the same time perhaps misses the mark of the discussion at hand. Regardless of what person-XYZ is recommending or raving about, if you already have the gun you intend to use for the foreseeable future, then the discussion is sort of meaningless for your purposes altogether.

I see these discussions more as what I'd buy if I was going out to buy today rather than everyone drop what you're doing and buy one of these or else!

[JodyH]

as I worry about the TRS on higher round count P30's.
5 minutes to change out a $8 part every 7500 rounds (same price as a Glock 17 recoil spring assembly which also needs replaced at around 7500 rounds).
:confused:

If I lost all my guns, accessories and holsters in a boating accident and was spending the insurance money tomorrow I'd buy a P2000 and a companion P2000SK, both in 9mm LEM.

[jlw]

I think LHS's point is insightful but at the same time perhaps misses the mark of the discussion at hand. Regardless of what person-XYZ is recommending or raving about, if you already have the gun you intend to use for the foreseeable future, then the discussion is sort of meaningless for your purposes altogether.

I see these discussions more as what I'd buy if I was going out to buy today rather than everyone drop what you're doing and buy one of these or else!

It still is economics driven considering a Glock and all of the support gear can be had for less than the price of a P30 alone. Not being an AIQB practitioner, those advantages don't factor in for me. I'd love to have a P30, but if I were starting over right now, I'd still go Glock.

[John Ralston]

It still is economics driven considering a Glock and all of the support gear can be had for less than the price of a P30 alone. Not being an AIQB practitioner, those advantages don't factor in for me. I'd love to have a P30, but if I were starting over right now, I'd still go Glock.

I shoot the P30 much better than anything else, and it fits my hand way better...so even though the Glock is cheaper, it isn't a viable option. The other features are a bonus, albeit at a premium price.

[ToddG]

5 minutes to change out a $8 part every 7500 rounds (same price as a Glock 17 recoil spring assembly which also needs replaced at around 7500 rounds).

My feeling, as well. The TRS thing in the P30 only looks like an Achilles heel because the gun doesn't need any other parts replacement for twenty-five thousand rounds. It's like complaining about a 7,500 mile oil change regimen for a car that doesn't need new brakes, filters, or anything else but gas to go 100,000 miles.

The 8,000 round point is also a lot earlier than I'd recommend. I changed mine at 12,500.


It still is economics driven considering a Glock and all of the support gear can be had for less than the price of a P30 alone.

A Yugo and a year's worth of gas can be had for less than a new Accord, too. That's sort of the point.

Spend $1k on a P30, be 99.9% sure it's going to do everything right.

Spend $600 on a Glock and maybe it works, maybe it has ejection/extraction problems, etc. What is the value of knowing your gun will be right (and stay right) for tens of thousands of rounds?

Spend $600 on an M&P and maybe it's great, maybe it shoots shotgun pattern-like groups at 15yd.

Etc.

Any of those three choices is fine. The one that is right for a given person comes down to a combination of many factors. But the number of people who shoot 10,000rd/yr who really need to worry about the difference in price between a $600 gun and a $1k gun is about zero.

[jlw]

My feeling, as well. The TRS thing in the P30 only looks like an Achilles heel because the gun doesn't need any other parts replacement for twenty-five thousand rounds. It's like complaining about a 7,500 mile oil change regimen for a car that doesn't need new brakes, filters, or anything else but gas to go 100,000 miles.

The 8,000 round point is also a lot earlier than I'd recommend. I changed mine at 12,500.



A Yugo and a year's worth of gas can be had for less than a new Accord, too. That's sort of the point.

Spend $1k on a P30, be 99.9% sure it's going to do everything right.

Spend $600 on a Glock and maybe it works, maybe it has ejection/extraction problems, etc. What is the value of knowing your gun will be right (and stay right) for tens of thousands of rounds?

Spend $600 on an M&P and maybe it's great, maybe it shoots shotgun pattern-like groups at 15yd.

Etc.

Any of those three choices is fine. The one that is right for a given person comes down to a combination of many factors. But the number of people who shoot 10,000rd/yr who really need to worry about the difference in price between a $600 gun and a $1k gun is about zero.

Your analogy isn't applicable. A Yugo has never proven to be of acceptable quality.

Why would I spend $600 on an M&P when I can buy them for $450? Both of mine are tack drivers.

I can buy Glocks for $425 new or less as trade-ins.

Again, I'm not knocking the P30, and I would like to have one, but for my personal situation, I can't justify spending the money.

I really don't get that last line as you know what I do for a living. I guess I really don't need need a quality firearm. Maybe it's because I only shot 5k rounds last year and thus must not be worthy of anything nicer. ;)

[LSP972]

HK trivia question -- why did HK come out with the LEM? Answer, after 4 years of waiting for the variant 9 part for the HK 45, they figured they better do something. (humor)

Actually, I think it is because their original DAO (V7) offering was, probably, the most horrible trigger ever seen on a "quality" service piece.

.

[DBLAction454]

Any of those three choices is fine. The one that is right for a given person comes down to a combination of many factors. But the number of people who shoot 10,000rd/yr who really need to worry about the difference in price between a $600 gun and a $1k gun is about zero.

I find this to be very true as well. While there are several manufacturers who make good firearms at a cheaper price. I find the confidence in my weapons is priceless.

My mentality has always been "buy once cry once".

I now own 3 USP45s. 1 for carry, 1 for range use, and one Tactical just cause I wanted it. Between the 3 I have 5,420 rounds fired in a little over a year. I would shoot more if I could afford it but this is still more than most people will ever fire through their handguns.

I run my guns a lot so I payed the extra price for a weapon that was designed for military applications and a company that bids for LEO and MIL contracts before civilian sale numbers.

Price point matters little to me when its a gun that I'm going to run all the time and trust my life to.


-DBLAction454

[hufnagel]

While there are several manufacturers who make good firearms at a cheaper price. I find the confidence in my weapons is priceless.
Price point matters little to me when its a gun that I'm going to run all the time and trust my life to.


http://www.ski-epic.com/gifs/g007_citizen_kane_slow_clap.gif

[rsa-otc]

As a long time DAO revolver shooter I was excited about the LEM option when I first started reading Todd's work. When it came time to replace my beloved S&W 645 after somewhere north of 50,000 rounds I started seriously considering a H&K45 like the one Todd was testing at the time. If the trigger was what I thought it would be I was willing to scrape up the money to make it work. At first I had I hard time even getting a gun shop to talk to me about ordering a LEM they all wanted to get me DOA type action. That put me off because I wasn't knowledgeable enough to do the conversion to LEM myself and if I spent the money to buy one I couldn't afford to send it away to be converted. So I bought a M&P45 and later put an APEX Duty kit in it. I have been very happy with the M&P both with accuracy and reliability.

Recently at an IDPA match I got a chance to try a LEM P30 that the owner claimed was the TLG special spring setup. Frankly it wasn't my cup of tea and glad I didn't spend the money back then. I realize 1 - the owner could have messed up the LEM install, 2 - that it is my opinion and others are supremely happy with their H&Ks. It's just that if I'm going to spend that kind of money then it needs to be what I like.

I still shoot the revolver better than my M&P45 similar to Todd's recent Blog post on the 1911 looking for that rolling break. When I mean shooting it better I mean that I am consistently 1 to 2 percentage points better in accuracy and score better on the IDPA classifier as well. Over the last month I have made the decision to spend my serious range/training time with the wheel gun and regulate my M&P to shooting a local club match from time to time. When I come across an auto that has a similar enough rolling break to my revolvers I'm all over it.

[TGS]

Scott,

I'm surprised you didn't like it. With the exception of takeup, I thought your M&P Apex trigger feels like an improved LEM...the break is just crisper and lighter, the characteristics of the trigger are otherwise similar. I've always likened the LEM to a single-action with a long take-up.

[GJM]

To continue from my earlier post, just now I shot the P30 and 226, magazine in and out, and also with two fingers, one hand and lying on my back. Both pistols ran, just like my G17.

If the Sig 226 SRT DA/SA trigger was a variant available for the P30, is there anyone who wouldn't prefer it?

[TGS]

If the Sig 226 SRT DA/SA trigger was a variant available for the P30, is there anyone who wouldn't prefer it?

I absolutely would. I've dreamed of a Sig SRT DA/SA...heck, even just a SIG DA/SA....being put into a P2000. I even spent an obscene amount of money by sending my P2000 to Gray Guns, and still came up disappointed.

But, my gun actually works, which many current SIG owners have a problem claiming (even Ernest and nyeti noted it).

[rsa-otc]

Scott,

I'm surprised you didn't like it. With the exception of takeup, I thought your M&P Apex trigger feels like an improved LEM...the break is just crisper and lighter, the characteristics of the trigger are otherwise similar. I've always likened the LEM to a single-action with a long take-up.

As I said it could be he messed up the install, said he did it himself. Maybe my subconscious was realizing what I recently consciously decided, the M&P is enough different from the revolver trigger to cause a slight degradation in performance. Since I am still regulated to revolvers at work (why is for another discussion) I can't just let go of the revolver and exclusively work with the auto. What I would like to see is a trigger like my wheelies, the same from start to finish. No difference in take up or break. Even with the Apex kit there is a lighter take up and a short discernible break point. Not what I would call a rolling break. Maybe sometime in the future Todd will let me try his :cool: then I will know for sure that what I a trying is a true TLG LEM. I don't really need to have a pull as long as the revolver's, maybe one half as long but like I said the same from start to break. I've looked at DAO autos before but their pull is actually in most cases longer than the revolver.

ETA: Actually the closest I have found yet was an XDm 5.25 with an after market trigger. IF I could get past it being a XD I might be willing to give it a try.

[rsa-otc]

I absolutely would. I've dreamed of a Sig SRT DA/SA...heck, even just a SIG DA/SA....being put into a P2000. I even spent an obscene amount of money by sending my P2000 to Gray Guns, and still came up disappointed.

But, my gun actually works, which many current SIG owners have a problem claiming (even Ernest and nyeti noted it).

I have observed the same thing 2nd hand, a local department instructor is was DIE HARD Sig fan boy has soured on them, After carrying P229s, P220s they recently moved to Glock 21s. I shoot with a Federal Air Marshal Instructor (one of the original triple nickel holders) who again was a die hard Sig person who recently moved to Glocks for his personal weapons noting the QC issues. Kind of hard to pay the premium for a Sig given these issues.

[joshs]

I don't really need to have a pull as long as the revolver's, maybe one half as long but like I said the same from start to break.

The LEM in all forms has two distinguishable "stages." It is less noticeable with the TLG springs and about 15K rounds through the gun. I'm interested in how the new short pull kit from HK will affect the weight of the pre-travel. I'm hoping that it increases the pre-travel weight in order to achieve the shorter pull. This might give more of a revolver feel to the pull.

[JHC]

As I said it could be he messed up the install, said he did it himself. Maybe my subconscious was realizing what I recently consciously decided, the M&P is enough different from the revolver trigger to cause a slight degradation in performance. Since I am still regulated to revolvers at work (why is for another discussion) I can't just let go of the revolver and exclusively work with the auto. What I would like to see is a trigger like my wheelies, the same from start to finish. No difference in take up or break. Even with the Apex kit there is a lighter take up and a short discernible break point. Not what I would call a rolling break. Maybe sometime in the future Todd will let me try his :cool: then I will know for sure that what I a trying is a true TLG LEM. I don't really need to have a pull as long as the revolver's, maybe one half as long but like I said the same from start to break. I've looked at DAO autos before but their pull is actually in most cases longer than the revolver.

ETA: Actually the closest I have found yet was an XDm 5.25 with an after market trigger. IF I could get past it being a XD I might be willing to give it a try.

PM sent - don't want to derail an outstanding thread

[ToddG]

Your analogy isn't applicable. A Yugo has never proven to be of acceptable quality.

Granted. The analogy was overly extreme. The point is that some people are willing to spend $$$ for the perception of greater reliability and quality. Whether you perceive the same level of improvement is another matter.


Why would I spend $600 on an M&P when I can buy them for $450?

OK, and I can buy a P30 for $600. More to the point, I'd imagine anyone getting good-guy price on an M&P can also get good-guy price on an HK from the same or similar source. So if we're going to compare apples to apples, let's.

Bud's Gun Shop, standard G17 price is $525 plus shipping. Standard P30 price is $829 includes shipping. Don't ask me why the difference on the shipping. But even throwing that away, we're talking $300 difference in price between the two.


Again, I'm not knocking the P30, and I would like to have one, but for my personal situation, I can't justify spending the money.

Again, I don't think anyone is suggesting that happy Glock, M&P, SIG, or whatever-shooters throw away their handguns and convert to HK blindly.


I really don't get that last line as you know what I do for a living. I guess I really don't need need a quality firearm. Maybe it's because I only shot 5k rounds last year and thus must not be worthy of anything nicer. ;)

No, the point is that if someone is spending his own money on guns, ammo, holsters, pouches, sights, parts, gas, matches, classes, etc. then the difference of $300 in the base gun (which is likely to last for years) is pretty meaningless.


If the Sig 226 SRT DA/SA trigger was a variant available for the P30, is there anyone who wouldn't prefer it?

I'd want to play with the two of them side-by-side but my guess is I'd prefer the P30 SRT. Of course, if they could make a P30 DA/SA SRT they'd be able to make a P30 LEM SRT given how the mechanism works... :cool:


What I would like to see is a trigger like my wheelies, the same from start to finish. No difference in take up or break.

That's definitely not what the LEM feels like. The LEM is close -- close enough for me -- but it's not a real DAO trigger stroke. Look at a 90-series "D" Beretta. It is, truly, like a revolver. You make a "D" by removing the sear so the trigger bar acts directly on the hammer and there is no additional friction or stacking from the sear, sear spring, etc. In fact the first DAO 90-series Berettas were exactly that (92DS complete with standard safety lever). They only switched to the slick side slide after they realized demand would make the retooling worth the cost.

[jlw]

Todd,

The only P30s I have seen in the wild in this neck of the woods were in the $800 range. Glocks and M&Ps are half of that in the same shop as the $800 H&K. I have never seriously shopped for a P30; so, I don't know if better pricing options are available or not.

[Dr. No]

In reference to the magazine release, I would suggest folks take a try using their strong hand middle finger instead of the trigger finger. I find that when I index my trigger finger up onto the slide it naturally brings my middle finger up into position to hit the mag release. For me, my trigger finger should only be used for ONE thing and ONE thing only - running the trigger. Lots of cops have gotten in trouble because they wanted to use it for other things like activating lights or scratching the itchy trigger when they fall.

[John Ralston]

I'm interested in how the new short pull kit from HK will affect the weight of the pre-travel.

What is the Short Pull Kit you speak of???

[BWT]

I hate you guys.

That's how I'm going to start this. Accusations, irritation, frustration. ;)

So I handled a P30 a couple of weeks ago, and when I handled it, the words a friend of mine that I had told him about handguns echoed in my head. (I forgot I told him this) When he was first shopping for a handgun I told him when he picked up the handgun that was his, he'd know it. I experienced it with my first 1911... my browning buckmark... my Glock 17 Gen 4... and... I saw it in the display case again today, but didn't want to hold it because I didn't want to think about it. But I experienced it with the P30. I've known on paper that I liked the HK P30 for about... a year... year and a half now.

What I didn't like was the cost of replacement parts, such as Mags, etc, I didn't like that it seemed to have a collector's market feel for a gun that people signed off on as a duty gun. Kind of reminds me of a Ferrari in a way (It's by no means a custom 1911), yes it *can* do a lot, but let's be honest, who's going to be red-lining a car that's 6 figures and tearing it up?

I just felt that way about holsters, magazines, springs, sights, etc, for the HK P30. Spare parts and magazines are honestly why I think you guys buy two of these guns often. Which does dissuade me. I know Glock even though it's a less quality gun, will always have parts for me. Always. HK's changed a lot, to give credit where credit is due. However, Glock's always been that way, so I'm cautious.

I wanted it, but I was happy with the Glock 17. I never found an HK P30 to handle, and my Glock's been reliable, I have had the failure described in fact by Nyeti and I believe Wayne (I could back and verify his name, but, in short, nyeti's partner trainer for Aimpoint) with the Glock of no magazine and the bullet falling into the magazine well. It was also with a female, that was afraid of guns, shooting one handed. Never experienced that myself.

Here's what appeals to me about the HK P30, and I know this, and yet I do not own one. But the fire's there, which means sometime in the next year... if I keep a strong enough interest in shooting (I mean, I'm getting married, I've already got a workable completely reliable handgun, keep that in mind. I need to have surgery, I'm starting back to school in the spring, we're saving for a house. Replacing a working handgun with another $850 handgun, and then getting at least 3-4 more $40 a pop magazines ($160) and a holster ($80-120) and night sights ($180), that's 1310. I just remembered spare magazine carrier, that's another 30-40$. So realistically? What does this gun *really* cost me? Almost $1,500, by the time I mail off the slide to have the sights installed because I'd only want Heinie Straight Eights. I mean if my numbers are wrong, please prove me wrong. I'd like to be wrong.) to justify replacing it. I'm... I'm tempted.

But here goes:

- Truly Ambidextrous, I've shot Glocks, M&P's, XD's, 1911's, Revolvers, other handguns. I'm not saying I'm proficient with all or any of them, but I'm familiar with all of them. I picked up this gun and it felt great in the hand, I mean just great. The Magazine release was easy to get to with either hand. I'm left eye dominant and right handed. Meaning, I've had to learn to shoot with both hands to be proficient. I fought it tooth and nail, and I just must shoot long arms left handed. It's taught me to shoot handguns left handed in the process. I also call this gun truly ambidextrous because it's not like you switch over the magazine release button to the other side and to use your left thumb, and then have to remember to use your index finger to release the slide release with your left hand, but remember to use your thumb with your right hand. No, same controls, both sides, and, they won't break on you like the 1911 ambi-releases linkage reportedly does from time to time. It's slide release to me was very similar to the Vickers Magazine release I used, and using the massive magazine release on the sides, just felt natural. I also didn't have to move my hands to get to the controls. With my 1911 I had to break my grip and rotate the gun in my grip to get to the Magazine release. Not with the HK. It's not an either/or situation, and it's not a crappy situation either, they are well thought out and well designed controls.

- DA/SA, I don't know how I feel about LEM DAO triggers, or DA/SA. But from a reliability standpoint, this is huge. I quantified this gun as a duty handgun above, (ETA: and this certainly reinforces that). I recall in reading through the testing journals of the HK P30 for TLG, and he had a round fail to fire, until the third hammer strike. This brought a light on for me, the same reason the Army specs out a DA/SA Gun. Todd didn't rechamber that round, he didn't cycle the slide (like you would a Glock, M&P or 1911), he squeezed the trigger, again, and again, until it fired. If you're using this as a defensive handgun, and you're shooting one handed and you have one hand occupied, squeezing the trigger again in hopes of that round firing the second time around, actually makes a *ton* of sense from reliability and is a nice feature to have. It also makes sense from a safety stand point. Right now I have an around 4-ish lb trigger on a striker fired gun (Glock) with no safety, it's faster than I'd be with an HK I'd imagine, but, unholstering and reholstering that gun is just a dangerous prospect right now. I used to carry Appendix (Two, it turns out inguinal hernias just don't lend themselves to AIWB very well right now), and this is much safer for re-holster (ETA: With the longer and heavier DA trigger pull, but without the Safety that you may forget to deactivate, or may get re-activated in the heat of the moment ala 1911 while handling it/bumping it around), also for what nyeti talked about with adrenaline and gun handling, this works with a broader safety margin.

-Quality. What can I say, Glock's Kaboom, I know it's a joke (and actually serious as well), but... H&K tests their guns, and designs their guns to run and run and run. Bullet obstructing the barrel? Go ahead and squeeze a second shot into that barrel, you're not going to be missing fingers/blinded, the barrel will not explode, it's designed to sustain that. The Glock I carry has an unsupported chamber and a polymer frame. It would not be the same experience. Not to mention their springs/parts endurance. Also their magazines? Also, just as reputable, I believe TLG (and he can verify), ran the same magazines through the entire endurance test, into what? 92,000~ rounds? How many top quality magazines has he trash binned with this 1911? I don't know but I want to say we're around 5 from just my recollection. HK's also very accurate.

From an overall perspective, the HK P30 incrementally improves over other guns in many, many areas for me. I'd have to figure out how I'd carry it, but anyway. This is definitely a rant, but the HK P30 is a great deal for what it is. I'll buy spare magazines for it if I ever get interested before buying the gun.

ETA 2: Alright, here's my issue with the P30. I just wish Warren would make sights for the dang gun. I am very very pleased with the Warren Tactical sights in my Glock.

[Haraise]

What I didn't like was the cost of replacement parts, such as Mags, etc, I didn't like that it seemed to have a collector's market feel for a gun that people signed off on as a duty gun. Kind of reminds me of a Ferrari in a way (It's by no means a custom 1911), yes it *can* do a lot, but let's be honest, who's going to be red-lining a car that's 6 figures and tearing it up?

There's no other point to buying an expensive sports car, but to enjoy it... and that means using it how it was built for. I don't understand why people work harder for things they won't use while tolerating what's cheap and dispassionate day to day, in cars or firearms.

[Dagga Boy]

In reference to the magazine release, I would suggest folks take a try using their strong hand middle finger instead of the trigger finger. I find that when I index my trigger finger up onto the slide it naturally brings my middle finger up into position to hit the mag release. For me, my trigger finger should only be used for ONE thing and ONE thing only - running the trigger. Lots of cops have gotten in trouble because they wanted to use it for other things like activating lights or scratching the itchy trigger when they fall.

Dude, that is actually something I have never seen or heard and does make sense. Having been now messing around with it tonight, I think it is something I would look at for training a new shooter, academy recruit, etc if using this system. For me, I have been doing the trigger finger thing since 1988, so it is the most natural operation for me and it works perfectly with my hand size. What I really like with the P30 set up with all small panels for me is that my grip never changes even during a mag change. My register point on the P30 is also set where I use the right side slide release as a guide and it puts my finger tip right on the proof stamp with the top of my finger feeling the slide. It is pretty well ingrained where my finger goes, and the reality is that my biggest issue these days on crappy follow through is actually going back to register way too fast (there could be worse things in life).

For John Ralston: There is a set up from Germany that takes up about half of the pre travel of the LEM. It doesn't help with reset, but makes the take up through the slack shorter. I plan on trying this on my P30LS with the Light LEM as I use that gun with both the LEM and the mechanical safety.

rsa: Funny on the "auto that feels like a revolver". This is what I thought was going to be the absolute sh*t with the P-250 SIG as a general issue gun. It would be like a high capacity semi auto configurable revolver. The trigger on those felt like my competition revolvers. I had very high hopes for the SIG P-250............until they completely screwed the pooch on not being able to make them with any decent level of Q/C and the contracts SIG got ended up getting lost with agencies both here and abroad returning the guns. Great idea poorly executed.

[Chuck Haggard]

When playing with the single stack Walther for an article Rich Grassi was writing a few years ago I quickly found that middle finger trick to be the best way to get a reload with any kind of quickness. That also cleared my palm from the bottom of the grip to allow the magazine to drop free.

I know, different gun, but that technique works.

[Slavex]

I really wish someone would just drive a CZ seriously and see what they think. I run mine hard and have zero complaints. I've used a number of P30's and still prefer the CZ Shadow. (yes the manual decocking thing bothers some people). I just couldn't love the trigger in the P30.
But then I go and screw the whole thing up by saying I'd always default to my G19 in a SHTF scenario. It has the GFA (which Ernest mentions he'd need too).

[JHC]

I really wish someone would just drive a CZ seriously and see what they think. I run mine hard and have zero complaints. I've used a number of P30's and still prefer the CZ Shadow. (yes the manual decocking thing bothers some people). I just couldn't love the trigger in the P30.
But then I go and screw the whole thing up by saying I'd always default to my G19 in a SHTF scenario. It has the GFA (which Ernest mentions he'd need too).

Mike Pannone is all over it.

http://www.defensereview.com/cz-p-07-duty-combattactical-pistol-the-best-pistol-nobody-knows-about/

[LittleLebowski]

Mike Pannone is all over it.

http://www.defensereview.com/cz-p-07-duty-combattactical-pistol-the-best-pistol-nobody-knows-about/

Good read, thanks for posting.

[JHC]

Good read, thanks for posting.

Independent of the gun, I thought Pannone wrote one of the most professionally crafted gun reviews I've seen.

[LittleLebowski]

Independent of the gun, I thought Pannone wrote one of the most professionally crafted gun reviews I've seen.

It's always a (rare?) pleasure to log on to the net and read about guns on gun forums and blogs :D

[jlw]

Mike Pannone is all over it.

http://www.defensereview.com/cz-p-07-duty-combattactical-pistol-the-best-pistol-nobody-knows-about/


Good read, thanks for posting.


LOL. I posted that last week in one of the DA/SA threads. :cool:

[LittleLebowski]

LOL. I posted that last week in one of the DA/SA threads. :cool:

Good find to you as well!

[JHC]

It's always a (rare?) pleasure to log on to the net and read about guns on gun forums and blogs :D

BOOM!

;)

[Slavex]

That's the first good review I've ever read of a P07, I was referring to an SP01 as my experience with the P07 is not anything like the review.

[Corse]

I was a huge Glock fan (as my safe full of them will testify) then along came the Gen3 RTF 17 from double-feed hell.
It was enough to sour me on known good Glocks.
Soured me enough to pull a like new 8 year old P2000 from the dust bunny corner of the safe and give it a try.

Me too. Well, pushed me back into the waiting arms of HK, anyway.

[Dagga Boy]

Noting the above posts, I think many of us got to the newer HK auto platforms from a bad experience with what we thought was "the platform". This happened to me a couple of times. When SIG changed the P-220's hammer to the P-226 style, we had serious issues and it is what brought Glock and HK into my agency. I didn't think ANYTHING could get me off the 9mm Glock platform.........until the Spawn of Satan FDE Gen 3 G-19 and a newly purchased G-17 slide that has my Aimpoint Micro mounted on it. Those experiences pushed me to the HK in a place I never thought I would be. It is why I think it is SO important for firearms companies to jump on reported issues fast and hard. They need to seriously look at field reports of issues and make modifications quickly. Denying they exist and blaming the messenger is the new corporate response from many companies. Surprisingly, HK has actually been very good about this as of late. I guess they don't hate us anymore....;).

[LHS]

Dude, that is actually something I have never seen or heard and does make sense. Having been now messing around with it tonight, I think it is something I would look at for training a new shooter, academy recruit, etc if using this system. For me, I have been doing the trigger finger thing since 1988, so it is the most natural operation for me and it works perfectly with my hand size. What I really like with the P30 set up with all small panels for me is that my grip never changes even during a mag change. My register point on the P30 is also set where I use the right side slide release as a guide and it puts my finger tip right on the proof stamp with the top of my finger feeling the slide. It is pretty well ingrained where my finger goes, and the reality is that my biggest issue these days on crappy follow through is actually going back to register way too fast (there could be worse things in life).


The only paddle-release pistol I've owned was a P22 (and I still regret choosing that pot-metal POS over the Dillon 550B on the prize table). I'd never had any training on that type of release, but it just seemed instinctual to use the social finger of my strong hand to activate the mag release. I played enough with the gun to decide that push-button vs. lever release was a toss-up for me in any future purchase. I actually kind of liked it.

[LittleLebowski]

The only paddle-release pistol I've owned was a P22 (and I still regret choosing that pot-metal POS over the Dillon 550B on the prize table).

Man, that hurts just reading about it (coming from a fellow former P22 owner).

[LSP972]

When SIG changed the P-220's hammer to the P-226 style, we had serious issues ...

Yup. We bought close to a thousand Sigs in 1996; some P228s but mainly P220s, which had the new hammer arrangement. During transition training, over half of the P220s suffered hammer rebound spring failures, and every one had to go back to Sig. The P228s, of course, were fine for the ten years they were in service.

Of interest to those who may not know, the reason Sig changed the hammer on the P220 from the original "sharp" hammer was due to some dipshit who, instead of using the decock lever, lowered the hammer on his P220 by holding it with his thumb and pressing the trigger, a'la 1911. This by-passed the safety intercept notch, and of course said idiot dropped the piece and it landed on the hammer, with predictable results. The dummy survived to further pollute the gene pool, naturally.

.

[DBLAction454]

Yup. We bought close to a thousand Sigs in 1996; some P228s but mainly P220s, which had the new hammer arrangement. During transition training, over half of the P220s suffered hammer rebound spring failures, and every one had to go back to Sig. The P228s, of course, were fine for the ten years they were in service.

Of interest to those who may not know, the reason Sig changed the hammer on the P220 from the original "sharp" hammer was due to some dipshit who, instead of using the decock lever, lowered the hammer on his P220 by holding it with his thumb and pressing the trigger, a'la 1911. This by-passed the safety intercept notch, and of course said idiot dropped the piece and it landed on the hammer, with predictable results. The dummy survived to further pollute the gene pool, naturally.

.

Ah yes.

All goes back to the ZERO accountability that many gun owners seem to have. If there are ANY stoppages, negligent discharges, or accuracy issues...

"Oh no! My gun is broken! I NEVER limpwrist, slap the trigger, or forget to maintain trigger discipline."

Just recently at a nearby range the RO picked up a loaded 22. With his finger at the end of the barrel. I guess something was in the trigger guard. And bang. Took his finger. But apparently from reports I've heard they were able to repair it enough and save it. But surely that Ruger 22/45 must need a redesign.

-DBLAction454

[ToddG]

Of interest to those who may not know, the reason Sig changed the hammer on the P220 from the original "sharp" hammer was due to some dipshit who, instead of using the decock lever, lowered the hammer on his P220 by holding it with his thumb and pressing the trigger, a'la 1911. This by-passed the safety intercept notch, and of course said idiot dropped the piece and it landed on the hammer, with predictable results.

Correct.

In SIG's defense, they got the bugs worked out with the rebound problem pretty quickly. Oddly enough, my first SIG was a P220 bought just after the switch and it, too, suffered from a dislodged rebound spring. That was when I met Bill Vanderpool, who years later was my partner at SIG. :cool:

[Chuck Whitlock]

Maybe it's somewhere else on the forum, but what does a P30 have over a P2000 besides changeable side panels?

I've been running a Glock 23 since '99, and running it well, I thought. But I recently tried a GFA and found it had a SEVERELY negative impact on my trigger reach (glove size runs 6C-7C). So I'm wondering if I'm not riding on the ragged edge with this platform.

Last year at FITP at FLETC, during fam fire I shot a P2000 .40 and liked the trigger and ergos more than I thought I would (prior to the G27 I ran a Kahr K40 BUG that fit me well). Recent comments here (Nyeti's and others) about the LEM trigger are really resonating with me.

[JV_]

Maybe it's somewhere else on the forum, but what does a P30 have over a P2000 besides changeable side panels?I prefer the P30's mag release over the P2000's.

[LOKNLOD]

I prefer the P30's mag release over the P2000's.

Yeah, huge improvement. The HK45C mag release helps the P2000/SK a ton though.
Aside from the side panels being fixed, they're also less textured. That's either good (comfier to carry without undershirt) or bad (not enough traction) depending on who you ask.

[John Ralston]

Does anyone know if there is a Lube Diagram for the P30 floating around out there? I have always lubed it similar to what I do with my P220, but I'm curious if I might be missing a crucial lube point or maybe even over lubing.

[ToddG]

Does anyone know if there is a Lube Diagram for the P30 floating around out there? I have always lubed it similar to what I do with my P220, but I'm curious if I might be missing a crucial lube point or maybe even over lubing.

If it's shiny, lube it.

[JAD]

C'mon, folks, let's keep this PG13.

[Dagga Boy]

Correct.

In SIG's defense, they got the bugs worked out with the rebound problem pretty quickly.

Really........because when I called about it they couldn't give a flying crap, and maybe we "were doing something wrong"...........Glock did not invent the "you must be limp wristing excuse".

[ToddG]

Really........because when I called about it they couldn't give a flying crap, and maybe we "were doing something wrong"...........Glock did not invent the "you must be limp wristing excuse".

"Quickly," like "soon," means something different in the firearms industry than the LE community.

[LHS]

Man, that hurts just reading about it (coming from a fellow former P22 owner).

Trust me, remembering it hurts worse. Former P22 owners of the world unite!

[Default.mp3]

Does anyone know if there is a Lube Diagram for the P30 floating around out there? I have always lubed it similar to what I do with my P220, but I'm curious if I might be missing a crucial lube point or maybe even over lubing.

From the manual:


LUBRICATION

Metal surfaces of the P Series pistol are treated with HK’s special corrosion and wear-resistant finish. This surface treatment does not completely reduce the friction between moving parts and it is recommended that a lubricant be applied to the pistol to ensure proper functioning. Any type of high-quality, medium-weight lubricant (oil) specifically designed for use on firearms will work well on the P Series. Do not use lubricants that boast of their ability to penetrate metal as these substances may deaden primers.

Where and How Much -

No Lube - Surface is dry and not slippery to the touch.
• All plastic and rubber components

Light Lube - A finger run across the surface yields little or no lube.
• Bore, chamber and exterior of barrel
• All metal parts
• All internal parts in slide and frame
• Magazine spring
• Recoil spring assembly
• Sights
• P Series pistol metal magazine housing, where applicable

Medium Lube - A finger run across the surface yields some lube, but lube does not run
down surface when it is held in a vertical position.
• Barrel locking block
• Slide rails and grooves
• All operating controls
• Locking insert and guiding part in frame
• Extractor

Heavy Lube - Lubrication runs down the surface when it is held in a vertical position.

No heavy lube is required on the HK P Series pistol.

Re-apply lubricant periodically during firing as it burns off from the heat. Apply lubricant using a clean shaving brush, cotton swabs, patches or rag. A spray bottle of lubricant also works well when using compressed air to circulate the lubricant into all parts and to remove the excess from the pistol.

Source: http://www.hk-usa.com/-images/shared/PSeries_Ops_Manual_060809.pdf

[Dagga Boy]

"Quickly," like "soon," means something different in the firearms industry than the LE community.

It's in Metric time. As a longtime HK guy, I know metric time well.;)

It's actually sort of the same as L/E time.......cops doing things quickly has a lot of variables. My dad summed it up best...."you guys driving a 100 mph like madmen to go eat, and drive the speed limit and obey all the traffic laws going to family disputes." Easy......we only have 30 minutes to eat....:cool:.

[LSP972]

...."you guys driving a 100 mph like madmen to go eat, and drive the speed limit and obey all the traffic laws going to family disputes."

I bet you didn't tell him the REAL reason for the sedate cruise to the family dispute... if you time it right, you only have to deal with the winner.

EMS gets to handle the loser...;)

Regarding Sig's "response time", they actually busted ass to get those P220s turned around. But you would think so, in that it was a major agency order for a new issue piece.

The only other major problem I recall with those guns was with the 8 round magazines. Loading from slide lock was no drama; a "tac reload" with the slide forward, or replacing a magazine in the holster, was a big deal, as you had to really jam that puppy into place to get it to fully seat/lock. I stayed with the seven rounders, myself.

We still have a few older hands who elected to keep their P220 (they had to buy it from the vendor who was facilitating the change-over) and continue carrying it in lieu of the new issue G22.

.

[John Ralston]

If it's shiny, lube it.

Being a former Mechanical Engineer...I already knew that part. My question was more about the Sear/Disconnector area in the frame - you can't really see any shiny spots when all the parts are sandwiched together and shoved down into the frame. I put a drop or two of oil in that area for corrosion resistance and lube - although I often wonder if I am attracting more dust bunnies by doing so and negating the benefits of the lube.


C'mon, folks, let's keep this PG13.

Funny!

[John Ralston]

From the manual:



Source: http://www.hk-usa.com/-images/shared/PSeries_Ops_Manual_060809.pdf


Thanks for the PDF Link.

[warpedcamshaft]

I have a P30 Lem on the way, and it should be here by Friday... Pretty amped up about trying the LEM after not being super impressed with the trigger on the P30 DA/SA version I rented or my recently sold USP.

[flux]

I have shot the P30 a few times and followed the P30 endurance test,and no doubt its an amazing gun,ergernomically, reliable etc. However,in my case i just cant afford it..The difference at my local stores between the Glocks S&W's and the Hk pricing is ammo,range fees, holster and training money.I dont buy into the whole perfection Glock claims, but for the average working man the difference in price is often significant.If my financial situation was better,no doubt id probably be running the P30. But for the next few years,il have to stick with what i have.

[Little Creek]

Your analogy isn't applicable. A Yugo has never proven to be of acceptable quality.

Why would I spend $600 on an M&P when I can buy them for $450? Both of mine are tack drivers.

I can buy Glocks for $425 new or less as trade-ins.

Again, I'm not knocking the P30, and I would like to have one, but for my personal situation, I can't justify spending the money.

I really don't get that last line as you know what I do for a living. I guess I really don't need need a quality firearm. Maybe it's because I only shot 5k rounds last year and thus must not be worthy of anything nicer. ;)

Don't sugar coat it, tell it like it is. I agree with you. For me it is Glocks and M&Ps. My Gen 4 Glocks (17, 19, & 26) are so reliable it is boring. Same with the M&P9 Pro Series and M&P9c. I am not about to start over with a new platform. I do carry concealed as a retired LEO and I would not carry any pistol I did not expect to work if I needed it.

[Gary1911A1]

I have a HKP2000. Got it from CDNN years ago for $650 which was a lot of money then. I like it, but wouldn't pay for what HK wants for a new one now or what they want for a P30. Just not worth the money on retirement pay.

[1slow]

One factor of cost has not been mentioned: ammo to shoot the weapon to do a 2000 ( or what ever # makes you confident) round test.
If a Glock or M&P etc... is more likely to be a bad example, how do you factor this ammo cost in ? Every time you try to trouble shoot and fix the problem and test the pistol you are burning ammo.
Ammo cost would quickly eat the $ saving between a $500 pistol and a $1000 pistol. The more times you have to test it the worse it gets.
A pistol that is more likely to be reliable might be on average cheaper.

I have carried and shot Glock 9mm (GL17, GL19) and .45 (GL30 , GL21) for 23 years. I like them and have known tested pistols.
However-
If I was starting cold today the P2000, P30, HK45 series would be a thought.

[JHC]

One factor of cost has not been mentioned: ammo to shoot the weapon to do a 2000 ( or what ever # makes you confident) round test.
If a Glock or M&P etc... is more likely to be a bad example, how do you factor this ammo cost in ? Every time you try to trouble shoot and fix the problem and test the pistol you are burning ammo.
Ammo cost would quickly eat the $ saving between a $500 pistol and a $1000 pistol. The more times you have to test it the worse it gets.
A pistol that is more likely to be reliable might be on average cheaper.

I have carried and shot Glock 9mm (GL17, GL19) and .45 (GL30 , GL21) for 23 years. I like them and have known tested pistols.
However-
If I was starting cold today the P2000, P30, HK45 series would be a thought.

I've seen more than one HK thread where fans confirmed that when HK recommends a break in period, they mean it. With NATO level ammo. Just sayin'. Prolly similar test fire protocols. FWIW I've had such great luck with modern pistols that 200-500 for initial shakedown confirmation makes me content it's GTG.

[Corlissimo]

I've seen more than one HK thread where fans confirmed that when HK recommends a break in period, they mean it. With NATO level ammo. Just sayin'. Prolly similar test fire protocols. FWIW I've had such great luck with modern pistols that 200-500 for initial shakedown confirmation makes me content it's GTG.


All I did (good or bad) was lock the slide back on my P30L the night before the first three range sessions. I didn't have any NATO ammo so I just used a combination of UMC & WWB in 115gr & 124gr. Never had any issues. Sample of one and all that I'm sure.



~ Typos brought to you by my lazyness & in attention to detail.

[JHC]

All I did (good or bad) was lock the slide back on my P30L the night before the first three range sessions. I didn't have any NATO ammo so I just used a combination of UMC & WWB in 115gr & 124gr. Never had any issues. Sample of one and all that I'm sure.



~ Typos brought to you by my lazyness & in attention to detail.

I would expect most would be along that pattern you saw. I don't see why any modern design should really need a break in. None of our plastics ever did.

[usvi]

I've seen more than one HK thread where fans confirmed that when HK recommends a break in period, they mean it. With NATO level ammo. Just sayin'. Prolly similar test fire protocols. FWIW I've had such great luck with modern pistols that 200-500 for initial shakedown confirmation makes me content it's GTG.


My P2000 V3 has 3500 rounds with no malfunctions and required no break in. After the initial cleaning I fired 115gr AE FMJ and several different JHPs( including some 20+ year old ammo). I went 500 rounds without cleaning as a test with no problems. The P30 has been known to require Nato ammo for the first 200 rounds or the slide lock method listed above. The recoil springs on these pistols are rated at 20,000 rounds so they are pretty tough. I live in an area where getting a permit to purchase a pistol is VERY difficult, so my choice for the ONE firearm I own was HK.

[Corse]

I've seen more than one HK thread where fans confirmed that when HK recommends a break in period, they mean it. With NATO level ammo. Just sayin'. Prolly similar test fire protocols. FWIW I've had such great luck with modern pistols that 200-500 for initial shakedown confirmation makes me content it's GTG.

I have 2 p30s and have never used any special ammo for break in. Both 115gr since day one and not a single issue. Maybe if you use super weak ammo, it might be possible, but again no issue with 2 brand new P30s.

[Comedian]

Quick question for the hive. Is the reset distance on a P30 the same between V1 and V3?

[BoppaBear]

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[ToddG]

Quick question for the hive. Is the reset distance on a P30 the same between V1 and V3?

Essentially.

[BoppaBear]

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To me, the resets are similar. The main difference between V3 and LEM are the trigger mechanisms themselves, which make the triggers feel much different.

It looks like HK is offering V1s from the factory again. For a while, it seemed like the only way to get V1 was to convert a V2 (or use aftermarket kit to convert a V3).

Of the first 5000 rounds through my P30, all but probably 300 were 115gr FMJ. I didn't run any self defense ammo or anything other than 115gr until probably 1500 rounds. No issues.





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[gtmtnbiker98]

The P30 is only offered in V1 or V3, the V2 is now a special order SKU. IMO, this is one of the smarter moves HK has made, it saves the hassle(s) associated of obtaining parts and fussing with the TRS replacement. I was a "die hard" V3 user until a few months ago, I have since embraced the V1.

[BaiHu]

The P30 is only offered in V1 or V3, the V2 is now a special order SKU. IMO, this is one of the smarter moves HK has made, it saves the hassle(s) associated of obtaining parts and fussing with the TRS replacement. I was a "die hard" V3 user until a few months ago, I have since embraced the V1.

Just jumped on the V1 after being a V3 guy for the last 2-3 years. It's a bit of a learning curve, but I'm looking to swap my last V3 out soon fur a V1.

Perhaps another thread, but how has the transition been for you? I was very used to that long and heavy DA pull and I'm just starting to get used to it at 250 rds, but I'm gonna need another 1,000.

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[WilsonCombatRep]

First of all, it's great to see Ernest Langdon here. His body of work in defensive firearms training speaks for itself and I hope we see lots of input here from him.

As Nyeti's business and training partner, I've come to be astounded by the P30 and its reliability and accuracy. The aforementioned features that enable threat management at a higher level than the striker guns become apparent the more you work with them. After enduring extraction related problems with several Glocks and later being one of Randy Lee's beta testers for his Glock extractor, I started testing other popular service pistol's extraction function with a more critical and discerning eye. It was not an encouraging journey. Most of the popular polymer service guns display varying levels of unsatisfactory extractor function. Most of these guns eject by use of the feed stack in the magazine due to that poor extractor function, which results in fired cases being presented to ejectors in varying attitudes or in bad cases, not being held by the extractor at all when it's time for ejection to take place. The P30 is an extreme exception to this poor paradigm.

In some serious testing that we did on P30 extractor function we found what all service pistols should be providing: consistent, excellent (and I should say perfect) function. In one test segment, we did 75 consecutive test shots with no failures and consistent ejection to the same spot. The test is conducted with a loaded chamber and no magazine on board. The shot is fired and the extraction/ejection performance is noted. The fired case should eject OUTSIDE the pistol and to a relatively consistent location. They should NOT eject down the magazine well or trap between the breech face and barrel hood. That's what should happen. The fact is that most of the popular polymer guns don't do this and are in fact running on the ragged edge with regard to extractor/ejector function. Go and try your favorite one out and see what you experience. It's not confidence inspiring.

Despite the price, the P30 set up with a LEM trigger seems to be about as good as it gets in today's service pistol market.

Superb info. I have a few theories on this.I believe it is partly a result of sloppy breechface tolerances and stamped ejectors that aren't always in the proper spot.

I haven't done nearly as much research on this but my experience is similar even with mass produced 1911 pistols.

[ToddG]

... sloppy breechface tolerances ...

Now THAT is something intersting to think about...

[John Ralston]

The P30 is only offered in V1 or V3, the V2 is now a special order SKU. IMO, this is one of the smarter moves HK has made, it saves the hassle(s) associated of obtaining parts and fussing with the TRS replacement. I was a "die hard" V3 user until a few months ago, I have since embraced the V1.

The V2 has the desirable TRS if you want to convert to the V4 TLG setup. It is much easier to change the FPB Spring and the Hammer Spring. Not that either can't be converted, but I am not sure why they would eliminate a variant.

[7mmSTW]

Dude, that is actually something I have never seen or heard and does make sense. Having been now messing around with it tonight, I think it is something I would look at for training a new shooter, academy recruit, etc if using this system. For me, I have been doing the trigger finger thing since 1988, so it is the most natural operation for me and it works perfectly with my hand size. What I really like with the P30 set up with all small panels for me is that my grip never changes even during a mag change. My register point on the P30 is also set where I use the right side slide release as a guide and it puts my finger tip right on the proof stamp with the top of my finger feeling the slide. It is pretty well ingrained where my finger goes, and the reality is that my biggest issue these days on crappy follow through is actually going back to register way too fast (there could be worse things in life).

I have been doing it this way for years. I have relatively short thumbs so using the middle finger just comes naturally to me. My subconscious always wants to register my trigger finger along the frame unless I am pressing it so once again the path of least resistance is the middle finger. I don't have a problem with the safety aspect of using the trigger finger but feel like it makes me work harder to reacquire my grip as opposed to when I use the flip off finger.

[BoppaBear]

The P30 is only offered in V1 or V3, the V2 is now a special order SKU. IMO, this is one of the smarter moves HK has made, it saves the hassle(s) associated of obtaining parts and fussing with the TRS replacement. I was a "die hard" V3 user until a few months ago, I have since embraced the V1.

Glad to hear you're liking it. I was about to pick up a V2 P30 back in October, but came across a rifle instead. Since I was rifle-less at the time, I went that route. An LEM will happen, just a matter of time. I'm very curious.


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[Clyde from Carolina]

The V2 has the desirable TRS if you want to convert to the V4 TLG setup. It is much easier to change the FPB Spring and the Hammer Spring. Not that either can't be converted, but I am not sure why they would eliminate a variant.

I'm still grooving in on my V2 P2K and have less than a thousand rounds through the gun. My plan is to put 1K through it to smooth up things a bit, then change out springs for the TLG set-up.

[krazykiddjoe]

This will be a bit long winded, but I don't really care.

In 1998 My father bought me a HK USP in .40 Fullsize, I was 16 years old.. I started shooting that gun in IDPA in 1999 and shot it until 2002 when my grandfather bought me a used Glock 17. The HK was nice but I didn't really understand the things going on with the pistol at the time, I took no formal instruction, and developed a few bad habits. I ended up selling the H&K in 2003 and devoted to learning the Glock, I was happy, content, and the Glock was a good platform for me to shoot, I entered into Law Enforcement as my profession in 2004 and was issued a Glock 22, a Gen 2, no finger grooves antique a very used gun at the point it was issued to me, I added sights to it as I prefer 2 dot, grip tape and shot the hell out of it. We were issued NY1 triggers at the time. (I hate that trigger). That gun gave up the ghost in 2005/2006 and I was issued a Gen 3 Glock 22, I opened the box breaking the seal, shot a 50 round qual with it and was expected to work a 12 hour night shift in the Ghetto of Fayetteville that night. I requested 200 rounds of ammo so that I could test it but was denied by the head firearms instructor of that time. I worked that night (with a glock 17 with me) and tested the gun the next day with ammo out of my pocket. IT worked, and is still working to this day, I have since stippled the hell out of it and run a x300 on it. It is destined to be replaced later this year or early next year. It has been a good duty pistol, If my tracking is correct I have put a little more than 20,000 rounds thru it in 8 years. Not a lot, but more than 90% of my Dept shoots.

Fast forward to the End of 2010 early 2011. I needed a gun to carry when carrying a fullsize gun (G22/17 or 19) wasn't kosher or i didn't feel like putting a fullsize pistol on, read LAZY FAT kitten COP. I picked up a few pocket pistols, a J-Frame, a Kahr CW9 for my new wife (also a police officer) and I picked up a Kahr PM9 that went CLICK instead of BANG at a rate of 85%, Kahrs response? YOU MUST BE LIMP WRISTING, We will send you out a recoil spring but you will have to send it to us to look at before we can tell you anything. WHAT? LOOK AT?!?!? I want you to kitten FIX IT, not kitten LOOK AT IT... I was hot, I returned to my gunstore where they had a MK9 used that I shot and it worked beautifully. I traded even for it with the pos pistol that didn't work. BUT I never liked the thought of carrying a gun that was in fact a compromise. SO I began reading about AIWB and this guy Todd Green, I don't think I have ever actually met him, I thought hmmm, I should try this and see if it is really where its at. So I ordered a Desbien #4 Hardcore Low Ride for a Glock 17. The holster arrived in a little less than 7 months. By then CCC was taking orders and I promptly ordered a SHAGGY for my Glock as well. I tried to love the Desbien Rig, but it was just a bit too low, should have went with the high ride it sits in my kitten for sale box to this day. Something else always bothered me tho, I didn't like not having a hammer to ride down on a re-holster. I thought about it and was in my gunstore a few days later and they had a P30S in the cabinet, a V3. I checked it out and went and shot it, it was without a doubt the most accurate pistol from round 1 to 150 that I put thru it, but I absolutely hated the DA/SA trigger. I looked into a P30 V2, no joy $950.... crazy talk. I said hell no, that ain't happening. I bought a fullsize 9MM M&P with a thumb safety, I said yeah that should work, gives me a mechanical safety for ease of mind for AIWB, Then I started running the gun, and running it hard. Come to find out I couldn't for the life of me run that damn gun with a thumb safety, when doing a mag change about 60% of the time I would put the thumb safety on inadvertently. This drove me nuts for a while then I sold the gun and said, you know what, Since this "gadget" isn't coming out anytime soon :D, kitten IT, I called a gunstore that I deal with from time to time and ordered a P30L V2. $985.00, $160.00 for sights, 7 mags total so far, at least 3 on order now...

I took possession of the V2 last November and set out on 2000 round challenge with it. Wiped it down, oiled it up and started shooting. Got Hienie Straight 8's to put on it, but realized very quickly that the way I shoot a glock made the P30 not lock back ever on last round. I shoot left handed and shoot very high support hand. I took the slide and sent to my gunsmith up in NOVA, along with the right side lever, I had him mill the lever to a nice small rounded off and technically unusable lever. After that it was game on. I ordered a Shaggy for this and haven't looked back. I have carried it for 7 months now and have shot just shy of the 2000 round mark. The ammo shortage is a kitten. I really like the setup and like the trigger. My gunsmith hopes that the gadget does come out so that he can buy the P30L from me... I am not sure if I will sell it or not. The more I shoot it the more I just really like the gun. I tried not to buy into the cool-aid but one sip leads to another. The only thing that leads me not to chug the cool-aid and go head first into P30L and P30 and a P2000SK is the fact that I am still issued a Glock with no option to carry anything else. So for the foreseeable future I will carry a Glock or a P30L PERIOD, because so far every sample I have had has worked... and worked well.


To the OP, I met Ernie when he shot a Beretta and then when he shot for Sig, Then on to S&W he is without a doubt the most humble pro shooter that I have ever met, and I would love to take a class from him. And I look forward to taking a class from Todd as well. *Maybe at peacemaker...

Sorry for the language, back to my lane.

KKJ

[jlw]

I have since stippled the hell out of it

Your agency let you stipple an agency owned firearm?

[krazykiddjoe]

The guy that denied me the 200 rounds to test the brand new pistol retired in 2007 I think, since then our firearm instructors are very understanding. Yes, two of our instructors work part time as adjunct instructors for a local training school. bigcatpondbird, until the recent hiring of a new chief I was very close to having a personal Glock 35 upper with RMR milled into it riding atop my Glock 22 issued Frame. But with new chief, new directions, that dream has come and gone, said G35 is now for sell.

With the new regime I lost the ability to carry my personally owned patrol rifle, a personally owned Colt 6933 11.5" SBR, and issued a S&W MP-15T, not as bad as the rifles we began issuing in 2008, DPMS AP4's, God those guns sucked....
Our agency does give 50 rounds per month free for rifle and pistol maintenance. Its not much. But its 600 rounds a year I don't have to buy.

So yes, a few of us that know what we are doing, have proved that we are competent, and shoot well near a 100% get leadway and were allowed to stipple agency owned guns. I stipple on the side for extra cash and have done some decent work, just don't ask me to cut a gun to take a smaller mag, I all to well know my limits...

KKJ

[Whiskey_Bravo]

HK fan boy checking in,

Not to derail but, I am curious as to everyone's opinions regarding other calibers. I agree completely that the P30 9mm is a fantastic firearm in any version, but is the .40 S&W version the best option as well for that particular caliber? Is the P30's bigger brother, the HK45, technically speaking the best option for 45 ACP users? I understand that changing calibers throws all kinds of other variables into the mix, but if all of the P30 9mm users here suddenly had to immediately switch to 45 ACP would you go straight to the HK45 or would you start the trial process all over again?

[1slow]

I have both HK45s and P30s. If you are using the P30 and like it, HK45 is a very accurate and ergonomic 45.
Read the Vickers / Hackthorn article on development of the HK45 for more information

[Whiskey_Bravo]

I have both HK45s and P30s. If you are using the P30 and like it, HK45 is a very accurate and ergonomic 45.
Read the Vickers / Hackthorn article on development of the HK45 for more information

Thanks. I agree, that article was a good read. I also agree that the Hk45 family is exceptionally ergonomic and accurate, but I am curious if it would be the first choice for a 45 ACP pistol for everyone here on PF who is currently using the P30. Or vice versa, would the P30 .40 be the first choice for everyone here as well. The .40 and 45 Glocks and M&P's do not exhibit the same issues that their 9mm counterparts do and those issues are the main selling points for many people who currently use the P30 in 9mm.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Thanks. I agree, that article was a good read. I also agree that the Hk45 family is exceptionally ergonomic and accurate, but I am curious if it would be the first choice for a 45 ACP pistol for everyone here on PF who is currently using the P30. Or vice versa, would the P30 .40 be the first choice for everyone here as well. The .40 and 45 Glocks and M&P's do not exhibit the same issues that their 9mm counterparts do and those issues are the main selling points for many people who currently use the P30 in 9mm.IMO, the P30 to HK45 similarities stop at the 'Spidey grips.' The HK45 is truly modular in terms of trigger variants whereas the P30 is not. Not to fail to mention, the HK45 does not share the modularity in the grip side panels as the HK P30.

For me, I absolutely love the P30 in 9mm. As for the HK45, I've tried owning three of them and simply cannot warm up to the gun. Now the HK45c is a whole different story and IMO, the best 'all-around' HK to date.

[CCT125US]

Now the HK45c is a whole different story and IMO, the best 'all-around' HK to date.

My wallet hates this place.

[Corlissimo]

Thanks. I agree, that article was a good read. I also agree that the Hk45 family is exceptionally ergonomic and accurate, but I am curious if it would be the first choice for a 45 ACP pistol for everyone here on PF who is currently using the P30. Or vice versa, would the P30 .40 be the first choice for everyone here as well. The .40 and 45 Glocks and M&P's do not exhibit the same issues that their 9mm counterparts do and those issues are the main selling points for many people who currently use the P30 in 9mm.

If i had to run 45ACP tomorrow, I'd likely go right to the HK45C. Being a Southpaw shooter my criteria is to have as much ambidextrous control capability as possible (which is one of the main reasons I ended up with my P30L) in addition to reliability.

Having handled the HK45C already, and based in my P30 9mm experience, the 45C is likely my best jumping off point and i would not look at anything else until/unless the 45C and I were proved incompatible.

Typos brought to you by my lazyness and in attention to detail.

[gtmtnbiker98]

My wallet hates this place.The 45c will also fit P30 holsters, just sayin'.

[warpedcamshaft]

My new P30 V1 has been a strange experience for me. I cut my teeth on da revolvers, then moved to glocks... But I still shoot the j frame revolvers quite a bit.

I got the gun and went straight to the range... First few timed shots from high ready were jerked low left... Really bad... Then I said "screw it" and ran a fast test after only having fired the gun a couple of times. That run ended up being my fastest ever: 5:49, all hits. My Glock 26 and 19 cold times are low to mid 6's. My 4 shots to the 8 inch circle were a bit slower with the p30, but my 3x5 shots were really fast for me.

Then I stepped back to 25 and did 2 rounds from concealment par time 4 seconds... First 2 shots are almost touching dead center a zone and a really fast time for me... Next... One c and one d zone hit.

Then it went downhill with a few moments of brilliance.

Wild consistency issues for me, and I think I psyched myself out. Now I'm trying to pull through smoothly instead of prepping the trigger and breaking the shot like I have been trained to do with the Glock.

Hopefully I'll break myself of the habits that are causing me to pull shots so bad...

[JodyH]

If i had to run 45ACP tomorrow, I'd likely go right to the HK45C.
ditto
In fact this is exactly what I did when .45 was easier to find than 9mm.
The HK45C is the best polymer .45 on the market imo.
:cool:

[ffhounddog]

I ended up with 4 P30's after tradeing in other sidearms and I find myself shooting them better since I got some rounds down them. Started shooting with a M9 then went to glocks then was issued a Sig. I have no problem with a V3 P30 or a V3 P2000sk that I take as a CC piece at times. I am just happy I was in the right spot to get some decent guns at a good price and had enough 9mm to shoot one in matches and carry one on a daily basis.

[JSGlock34]

Now the HK45c is a whole different story and IMO, the best 'all-around' HK to date.


My wallet hates this place.

This thread is going to cost me money. I checked out the HK45C this morning at the LGS. Unfortunately, I liked it more than I was planning. My 1911 is currently cowering in fear at the back of the safe.

[hufnagel]

TTAG people don't like HK's. I think they're misinformed. :D

[cvann]

I sold my HK45CT. Its a great gun to geek on (Ninja SEAL), but it was super slow for me.

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[Kyle Reese]

I sold my HK45CT. Its a great gun to geek on (Ninja SEAL), but it was super slow for me.

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Can you expand on this?

[cvann]

Can you expand on this?

Sure...

My drill and training speeds were significantly slower with the HK45C as compared to a P30, HK45, G17, G34, G21 or even a 1911.

Most of my problems with that gun stem from issues with a master grip and split times.

It just doesn't work well for me.

In my personal opinion, its a gun with a marketed romance. DEVGRU uses it and LAV "designed" it, so everyone buys it, shoots 1-10 boxes of cheap ball and claims it best.

I put 2500 rounds through mine, trying to master it, but in the end I wasn't making enough progress to support ownership any longer.

Furthermore, I find the HK45 much easier to shoot suppressed.

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[Kyle Reese]

Thanks, Cvann.

I was shooting my father's P30L V3, and caught myself short stroking the trigger at speed (I'm used to the Glock trigger).

I can definitely relate.

[GJM]

Sure...

My drill and training speeds were significantly slower with the HK45C as compared to a P30, HK45, G17, G34, G21 or even a 1911.

Most of my problems with that gun stem from issues with a master grip and split times.

It just doesn't work well for me.

In my personal opinion, its a gun with a marketed romance. DEVGRU uses it and LAV "designed" it, so everyone buys it, shoots 1-10 boxes of cheap ball and claims it best.

I put 2500 rounds through mine, trying to master it, but in the end I wasn't making enough progress to support ownership any longer.

Furthermore, I find the HK45 much easier to shoot suppressed.

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Same here -- I shoot a P30 in .40 MUCH better than a 45C, and would take 13 of .40 over 8 of .45 any day. Also, shoot the HK45 much better than the 45C.

To me, the HK45C grip compares to a P30, like a Glock 36 compares to a Glock 17.

[MSparks909]

What a blast from the past. Just re-read this whole thread. Seemed fitting as the P30/L is seeing a slight renaissance here on PF. Didn’t know LangdonTactical was such a big fan of the P30 a few years back. In the LEM configuration at that!

[Bill]

What a blast from the past. Just re-read this whole thread. Seemed fitting as the P30/L is seeing a slight renaissance here on PF. Didn’t know LangdonTactical was such a big fan of the P30 a few years back. In the LEM configuration at that!

Glad you brought this back. I just re-read it all as well. Makes me want to pull the P30L out!

[HCM]

What a blast from the past. Just re-read this whole thread. Seemed fitting as the P30/L is seeing a slight renaissance here on PF. Didn’t know LangdonTactical was such a big fan of the P30 a few years back. In the LEM configuration at that!

If I recall correctly, it was right around the same time a certain federal tactical team adopted P30L's in 40 with the TLG LEM in lieu of P2000's.

[JonInWA]

The two main platforms that I'm committed to for the year and at least through 2018 are my P30L V1 light LEM, in .40 and Beretta 92D (with upgraded Wilson Combat components, Tool Tech-refurbished and upgraded Trijico sights and ultra-thin Trausch grips). P-F discussions and interactions have played a not insignificant factor in my moving towards these platforms (and, in the case of the P30L, choosing and obtaining it), and how, particularly in the case of the 92D, setting up/equipping/modifying.

Best, Jon

[Bucky]

Good read. My how things change in 4 years.

I did up a P30L for USPSA Production a couple years back. Then the VP9 came out, so I tried that. I like the P30 much better.

One thing I would have to disagree with in the OP, as sweet as the P30 shoots, it’s still a far cry from a 9mm 1911. Of course, recoil is subjective, YMMV. :)

[Bodhi]

The two main platforms that I'm committed to for the year and at least through 2018 are my P30L V1 light LEM, in .40 and Beretta 92D (with upgraded Wilson Combat components, Tool Tech-refurbished and upgraded Trijico sights and ultra-thin Trausch grips). P-F discussions and interactions have played a not insignificant factor in my moving towards these platforms (and, in the case of the P30L, choosing and obtaining it), and how, particularly in the case of the 92D, setting up/equipping/modifying.

Best, Jon

Same but PX4 and P30. I’ve owned a model from each platform prior (PX4sc/P30sk) so I know what I am getting into. Only difference for me is I am tired of the round robin. Sat down and said no more flipping. Checking out. Nearly a quarter century of pistol shooting and a greatest hits decisions were made.

[LangdonTactical]

What a blast from the past. Just re-read this whole thread. Seemed fitting as the P30/L is seeing a slight renaissance here on PF. Didn’t know LangdonTactical was such a big fan of the P30 a few years back. In the LEM configuration at that!

I still am a fan of the gun and there are still a few in the safe. I really wish I could have talked HK into listening to the people that shoot guns a lot. It is a great platform, but it has a few drawbacks.

I am really happy that I made the decision to go back to Berettas. I am super happy that I decided to give the PX4 a try.

[MSparks909]

I still am a fan of the gun and there are still a few in the safe. I really wish I could have talked HK into listening to the people that shoot guns a lot. It is a great platform, but it has a few drawbacks.

I am really happy that I made the decision to go back to Berettas. I am super happy that I decided to give the PX4 a try.

From a curiosity standpoint, would you mind listing the drawbacks when you have time? Always appreciate input from those who have far more rounds downrange with the platform than I do.

[LangdonTactical]

From a curiosity standpoint, would you mind listing the drawbacks when you have time? Always appreciate input from those who have far more rounds downrange with the platform than I do.

So, just my opinion from what I remember shooting the gun quite a bit back then.

1. Have to get used to a paddle mag release. Not a big deal, but it is still a factor.
2. Rubbing blisters on my finger where the trigger drops down in the groove in the trigger guard. I rounded the corners there, which helps, but it did not make it go away.
3. Really big gun to only hold 15 rounds.
4. Very poor support when it comes to parts for maintenance. Maybe it has gotten better, but back then if you did not know someone at HK, it could be very hard to get parts.
5. No matter how hard I tried, I could never shoot the P30 LEM as fast or as well as I could a TDA Beretta 92. (I was not shooting the PX4 yet) I could shoot it very well and pretty fast, but it took way more work.
6. It is an expensive gun before you do anything to it. I think I paid $900+ for my first one for no night sights and two mags. Mags where really expensive, so for a base set up after night sights I was close to or above $1200.
7. The DA on the TDA guns was horrible. And not much to do about it other than sending it off to Bruce Gray.
8. Poor aftermarket and holster support. But you could say that about anything other than a Glock.

Those were the factors that pushed me away in the end. It is a great gun, but I found other options that met my needs better and at much better price point.

[JodyH]

Those were the factors that pushed me away in the end. It is a great gun, but I found other options that met my needs better and a much better price point.
The parts situation has improved tremendously.
HK USA stocks everything these days and sells them cheap and ships them fast.
HKParts.net usually has everything in stock but has a high markup.
Top Gun, Midway and Brownells are all starting to carry most of the springs.

Holster and sight options/availability still sucks.
Luckily the really good stuff is usually available (AIWB options especially thanks to Todd).
You're definitely not going to be getting the latest/greatest stuff to hit the market though.

I'm with you on the capacity... c'mon H&K surely you can squeeze at least one more round in that mag without sacrificing anything.

The paddle mag release I prefer, the groove never bothered me but I know it pinched the hell out of a lot of people.

The LEM takes work, the DA/SA sucks.

H&K does like their profit margin on the USP and P-series.

[LOKNLOD]

I think the P30 is much more smartly designed for institutional usage than the individual user. If you do want it as single user, it helps if you’re an enthusiast who really wants to make it work.

[LangdonTactical]

The parts situation has improved tremendously.
HK USA stocks everything these days and sells them cheap and ships them fast.
HKParts.net usually has everything in stock but has a high markup.
Top Gun, Midway and Brownells are all starting to carry most of the springs.

Holster and sight options/availability still sucks.
Luckily the really good stuff is usually available (AIWB options especially thanks to Todd).
You're definitely not going to be getting the latest/greatest stuff to hit the market though.

I'm with you on the capacity... c'mon H&K surely you can squeeze at least one more round in that mag without sacrificing anything.

The paddle mag release I prefer, the groove never bothered me but I know it pinched the hell out of a lot of people.

The LEM takes work, the DA/SA sucks.

H&K does like their profit margin on the USP and P-series.

So at least a couple of things have gotten better. That's good. I do think it is a great gun and HK makes a solid product. But I have converted several hardcore HK guys now and they are very happy. :)

[Doc_Glock]

I wish there was a compact P30 that took 2000 mags.

Anyhoo. Otherwise love the gun.

[Default.mp3]

I'm with you on the capacity... c'mon H&K surely you can squeeze at least one more round in that mag without sacrificing anything.Can't you shave the followers to do that? I feel like that was a thing.

[JodyH]

Can't you shave the followers to do that? I feel like that was a thing.
You can get two more rounds with some STI mag followers but I never tested them enough to trust them.
I used some STI followers to get 21 in a P30 mag with a TF +5 and still allow insertion on a closed slide.
You could stuff 22 in but they were way, way tight.

[GJM]

I have two P30L DA/SA pistols with minor mods by forum member BCL, and far prefer those triggers to P30 LEM, including a GGI P30L LEM.

[Sensei]

So, just my opinion from what I remember shooting the gun quite a bit back then.


5. No matter how hard I tried, I could never shoot the P30 LEM as fast or as well as I could a TDA Beretta 92. (I was not shooting the PX4 yet) I could shoot it very well and pretty fast, but it took way more work.


Those were the factors that pushed me away in the end. It is a great gun, but I found other options that met my needs better and at much better price point.

I agree and attributed that to a couple of factors. I’d love to get your thoughts as it lets me know if I’m on the right track for improvement.
1) The P30 has a long initial DA trigger pull that stacks the weight just before the break. That is to say, my trigger gauge gradually increases to 10lbs throughout the P30’s entire pull; my Sigs and Beretta’s hit a early wall that is 8-10 lbs depending on the gun, but remain at a constant weight until breaking. The effect of having to increase the force on the P30’s trigger is micro muzzle movements throughout the squeeze.

2) The P30 has a longer reset than either Beretta or Sig - especially a Sig with the SRT. Thus, I feel like I’m waiting on the trigger reset with a P30.

3) The SA pull on the P30 has a lot of pretravel before hitting the 4 lb break. I must focus my mind on pulling with a steady, even force or I’ll stage the trigger a little at the end of the pretravel.

One of my solutions was to send a P30LS to Lazy Wolf guns. The plan is to mainly reduce the reset as I’ll be carrying it cocked and locked. If it works, my HK45s will get the same work. I’ll report back once the gun is back in my hand.

[Bodhi]

So, just my opinion from what I remember shooting the gun quite a bit back then.

7. The DA on the TDA guns was horrible. And not much to do about it other than sending it off to Bruce Gray.


Robert Burke now works on them, and for less than those other shops charge. Night and day difference once he is done with one. DA and reset signficantly improved.

[Bucky]

8. Poor aftermarket and holster support. But you could say that about anything other than a Glock.


I’d have to think better current holster support than the PX4, no?

Agree with other points, especially the HK DA/SA’s DA trigger pull.

[DallasBronco]

3) The SA pull on the P30 has a lot of pretravel before hitting the 4 lb break. I must focus my mind on pulling with a steady, even force or I’ll stage the trigger a little at the end of the pretravel.
Not EL, but this is something I learned from one of his interviews on the PX4 that I watched. The SA breaks much further back than the DA, which for me, was a deal killer with my P30SK. I have long fingers, and this difference caused me to shift my grip between DA and SA and really affected my accuracy. I didn't become aware of this until listening to EL say that one of the things he really liked about the PX4 was that the DA and SA break at nearly the same point. I tested this with my P30SK and discovered one of my chief issues with being able to shoot that gun well, and I sold it. I still have a pair of LEM pistols and I don't have THAT issue with those.

[Bodhi]

Not EL, but this is something I learned from one of his interviews on the PX4 that I watched. The SA breaks much further back than the DA, which for me, was a deal killer with my P30SK. I have long fingers, and this difference caused me to shift my grip between DA and SA and really affected my accuracy. I didn't become aware of this until listening to EL say that one of the things he really liked about the PX4 was that the DA and SA break at nearly the same point. I tested this with my P30SK and discovered one of my chief issues with being able to shoot that gun well, and I sold it. I still have a pair of LEM pistols and I don't have THAT issue with those.

Robert Burke is local. I’ll let you try the P30 or P30sk v3 once he is done with my new set (owned a P30sk he worked on prior). The PX4 work he has done is still better but the PX4’s have a much better starting point than the HK’s.

[DallasBronco]

Robert Burke is local. I’ll let you try the P30 or P30sk v3 once he is done with my new set (owned a P30sk he worked on prior). The PX4 work he has done is still better but the PX4’s have a much better starting point than the HK’s.
Thanks for the offer. I've seen you post about him but didn't realize he was around here. Only local guy I knew did some 1911 work for me, but is no longer in the same shop.

[Bodhi]

Thanks for the offer. I've seen you post about him but didn't realize he was around here. Only local guy I knew did some 1911 work for me, but is no longer in the same shop.

Yup, he used to be in Carrollton but now up off 380 on the way to Denton. I’m a big fan of his work and he works on all my pistols and long guns. Nice to have such a great resource local.
http://www.thesigarmorer.com

[JodyH]

This thread reminded me how much I enjoyed shooting a P30 LEM.
So I picked one up off grabagun this AM.

Damn you.
PF + my lack of willpower = spending money again.
:cool:

[DallasBronco]

This thread reminded me how much I enjoyed shooting a P30 LEM.
So I picked one up off grabagun this AM.

Damn you.
PF + my lack of willpower = spending money again.
:cool:
That's just P-F Karma. As a LEM devotee, how many people do you think you have caused to spend money on an HK? :D

[MGW]

I've come close to buying a P30 LEM multiple times and just haven't quite been pushed over the edge. On paper, it is the perfect carry pistol for me. Two things have held me back. One is a not so good experience with a P2000 V2. The pistol was great but I developed a preignition flinch shortly after picking up the pistol. This was due to shooting too many trigger systems in a short amount of time while also trying to get ready for a match. The second thing that has held me back is a love for good TDA pistols.

[gomerpyle]

Beretta 92s. Still shoot that gun better than anything else. But they are heavy, big and lack any real options for sights. I also know that I cannot expect to put 90 or 100K through the gun without any major parts replacement like I expect our of my P30s. Even replacing all those major part it might just give up somewhere that makes it a paperweight. Plus, Beretta is another company the just refuses to listen to any of their customers about what they want. They want to stop making that gun so badly they just don't know what to do. But instead of doing what people want done to it, they keep putting little patches here and there and all their real efforts go into guns that no one wants.

Mr. Langdon, I was wondering if you still feel this way about Beretta 92s or the M9a1/a3 for that matter. Weighing my options and deciding between a P30L LEM v1 and a 92 variant. Both are accurate in my hand, and I am especially taken by how the beretta and its sights track in my hands. I am impressed by the p30's durability, and am sure a 92 is also durable, but your statement above gave me pause. I've read what the internet has to say, but would love to hear your insights into the matter.....

[hufnagel]

Ok, I can't stand it any longer...

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/80875578/am-i-the-only-one-around-here-who-doesnt-have-a-problem-with-a-p30-tda.jpg

Seriously, do I really suck that badly that I can't notice half of the issues you guys talk about with the V3/TDA version?

[LOKNLOD]

Ok, I can't stand it any longer...

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/80875578/am-i-the-only-one-around-here-who-doesnt-have-a-problem-with-a-p30-tda.jpg

Seriously, do I really suck that badly that I can't notice half of the issues you guys talk about with the V3/TDA version?

It’s not so much that the HK TDA is bad, as it’s jus that other TDA can be so much better...


...Says a guy who just shot a V3 P30 and PX4CC at the same range session.

[RichK]

Ok, I can't stand it any longer...

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/80875578/am-i-the-only-one-around-here-who-doesnt-have-a-problem-with-a-p30-tda.jpg

Seriously, do I really suck that badly that I can't notice half of the issues you guys talk about with the V3/TDA version?

Nope, I don't have a problem with the P30 TDA either. The stock DA pulls on both of mine were much smoother than the DA pulls on the new Berettas I fired the last few years before I left active duty. They improved with use. Later I had to tinker, installing first nickel-plated sear springs and the lighter factory hammer springs, then adding the light FPBS. One now has an 11 pound Lazy Wolf hammer spring and delivers DA pulls of 8.5-8.75 pounds and SA pulls of 4 pounds.

[MSparks909]

Ok, I can't stand it any longer...

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/80875578/am-i-the-only-one-around-here-who-doesnt-have-a-problem-with-a-p30-tda.jpg

Seriously, do I really suck that badly that I can't notice half of the issues you guys talk about with the V3/TDA version?

I don’t notice them that much easier. My performances with my TDA P30L are nearly identical and in some instances surpass my performances with Berettas, of which I have 15,000+ rounds through over the last two years. I’m kind of an oddball though where as long as I have my preferred sight picture (bright front/black rear) and the same holster I can shoot nearly identical performances back to back with different guns.

I experimented the other day with my P226, LTT M9, P30L and PX4. Same JM George AIWB, all have bright orange front sights. Shot them all within a tenth or two on the drills I usually run.

[DallasBronco]

Ok, I can't stand it any longer...

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/80875578/am-i-the-only-one-around-here-who-doesnt-have-a-problem-with-a-p30-tda.jpg

Seriously, do I really suck that badly that I can't notice half of the issues you guys talk about with the V3/TDA version?

I haven't shot the P30 V3, but I have no issue with my P2000 V3 and my DA/SA USP's. The P30SK that I had, however, was a special brand of suck. Worst DA/SA trigger I've ever used, and I've owned some junk in the past.

[LangdonTactical]

Mr. Langdon, I was wondering if you still feel this way about Beretta 92s or the M9a1/a3 for that matter. Weighing my options and deciding between a P30L LEM v1 and a 92 variant. Both are accurate in my hand, and I am especially taken by how the beretta and its sights track in my hands. I am impressed by the p30's durability, and am sure a 92 is also durable, but your statement above gave me pause. I've read what the internet has to say, but would love to hear your insights into the matter.....

Well, I don't think I would say that anymore. I was pretty pissed at Beretta at the time. They had stopped building everything that I or we wanted. Vertecs, Elites, Brigadiers where all gone. So I did not have many options for what I wanted to shoot outside of putting one together from old parts. That is no longer the case. I think Beretta is listening more now than they ever have and more than I have experienced with any other gun company.

I would say that I think the P30 is likely a more durable gun over time than a 92, but I can easily get my monies worth out of a 92 and I shoot it much better. At this point, I think the PX4 is just as durable as a P30, maybe more so, time will tell.

Again, the P30 is a great gun and I really like them. I see no issue in choosing that gun if you shoot it well and it meets your needs.

[gomerpyle]

I would say that I think the P30 is likely a more durable gun over time than a 92, but I can easily get my monies worth out of a 92 and I shoot it much better. At this point, I think the PX4 is just as durable as a P30, maybe more so, time will tell.

Again, the P30 is a great gun and I really like them. I see no issue in choosing that gun if you shoot it well and it meets your needs.

Many thanks for taking the time to answer my question:)!

[EVP]

I really like the p30/L for a defensive carry gun. It checks all the right boxes that I want in a carry gun. Reliable, accurate, durable, controls are all easy to access and make it easy to manipulate the gun. It is a quality gun that all one really needs to do is add sights and be done with it.

The only negative thing about the gun is the trigger, but it really is not as bad as the internet makes it seem and honestly for a defensive carry gun I think it is more then adequate. If HK came out with match components for the p-series guns and the 45s, that would be a nice option for people.

Just as an aside, when working malfunction drills and using empty cases the p30 has no problem feeding empty cases smoothly. The gun just runs smoothly through the entire cycle of operation.

Detail stripping is not bad and the frequency that one would need to do this is really low. I don’t see the p30 being anymore difficult and complicated then the sig 226 and 92s.

There are more points I would like to make but Jody H summed it up. Overall I think the p30/L are near the top when looking for a defensive carry gun.

[Bodhi]

I respectfully disagree concerning the trigger. It’s a physics problem or design problem. The DA pull is simply too long/heavy. It’s not the weight or the length of pull, it’s the combination of both. To me it is terrible so the “internet” complaining, a lot of it, has merit and it’s coming from people who have experience not new folks. I don’t hate the pistol, in fact just the opposite. I just bought a P30/SK pair for gloved use. But they were directly shipped to my gunsmith to work over as I won’t shoot or carry them without trigger work, sent straight there, ain’t even seen them yet. He reduces the length of pull, the weight of the DA, and shortens the reset turning it into something respectable that should come that way from the HK factory. Like Langdon said, they don’t listen to shooters, afficianados, etc.

Bought a pair of PX4’s recently too, same sizes as the HK’s, more, or less, compact and a subcompact. The trigger starting points (factory config) are vastly different. I understand fully why Langdon switched from a trigger perspective. My gunny turns one platform into a usable item, the other into a work of art. Pre and post gunny work , I’d take the Beretta. The HK’s have one main thing going for them necessitating my use. They make the P30’s, or their pistols really, with large trigger guards for gloved use. So the times where I need big or thick gloves on they are ideal. In the winter months I am outdoors working an hour a day, minimum and maybe sporting activity as well. Just my opinion and the new sets of each, aren’t my first. 7 years experience on both.

[Dagga Boy]

I respectfully disagree concerning the trigger. It’s a physics problem or design problem. The DA pull is simply too long/heavy. It’s not the weight or the length of pull, it’s the combination of both. To me it is terrible so the “internet” complaining, a lot of it, has merit and it’s coming from people who have experience not new folks. I don’t hate the pistol, in fact just the opposite. I just bought a P30/SK pair for gloved use. But they were directly shipped to my gunsmith to work over as I won’t shoot or carry them without trigger work, sent straight there, ain’t even seen them yet. He reduces the length of pull, the weight of the DA, and shortens the reset turning it into something respectable that should come that way from the HK factory. Like Langdon said, they don’t listen to shooters, afficianados, etc.

Bought a pair of PX4’s recently too, same sizes as the HK’s, more, or less, compact and a subcompact. The trigger starting points (factory config) are vastly different. I understand fully why Langdon switched from a trigger perspective. My gunny turns one platform into a usable item, the other into a work of art. Pre and post gunny work , I’d take the Beretta. The HK’s have one main thing going for them necessitating my use. They make the P30’s, or their pistols really, with large trigger guards for gloved use. So the times where I need big or thick gloves on they are ideal. In the winter months I am outdoors working an hour a day, minimum and maybe sporting activity as well. Just my opinion and the new sets of each, aren’t my first. 7 years experience on both.


HK is geared toward large military and government agency contracts, often that come out of Europe. Where do you think the trigger weight, length and reset length come from. The Germans are notorious for pre use specs on trigger stuff. In particular, that long reset is theirs. So, HK is listening to their customers, just not the ones we want. If.....there was something like an HK version of the Langdon PX4CC, I would be carrying it. I have no idea if the PX4CC is a business success for Beretta versus the rest of their line, but numbers drive the decision train at gun companies not what we’ll trained and educated shooters want. A lot of car analogy’s here. I was at Ford getting service the other day. The price between the Raptor and a decent F150 was double. What sells more? Like a TON more? Then, compared to the factory built Raptor, how many of the plain jams F150’s will be home or shop personalized in a way that spurns an entire market of its own.
To me the HUGE benefit of the HK’s is I get their level of QC and parts quality and can then get a trigger done for me to maximize the accuracy of their barrels and reliability of the their magazines and internals.

[Bodhi]

HK is geared toward large military and government agency contracts, often that come out of Europe. Where do you think the trigger weight, length and reset length come from. The Germans are notorious for pre use specs on trigger stuff. In particular, that long reset is theirs. So, HK is listening to their customers, just not the ones we want. If.....there was something like an HK version of the Langdon PX4CC, I would be carrying it. I have no idea if the PX4CC is a business success for Beretta versus the rest of their line, but numbers drive the decision train at gun companies not what we’ll trained and educated shooters want. A lot of car analogy’s here. I was at Ford getting service the other day. The price between the Raptor and a decent F150 was double. What sells more? Like a TON more? Then, compared to the factory built Raptor, how many of the plain jams F150’s will be home or shop personalized in a way that spurns an entire market of its own.
To me the HUGE benefit of the HK’s is I get their level of QC and parts quality and can then get a trigger done for me to maximize the accuracy of their barrels and reliability of the their magazines and internals.

I agree with that. And by no means am I trying to piss on them. Some get real touchy when you critique Heckler and Koch, and I’m not implying you do. My opinion is an honest eval with a few decades behind me shooting lots of platforms. I fully understand the company and why and have for decades. But the P30 DA is horrible. And I don’t think it’s worth hundreds more than a Glock. To use your own analogy, why even buy the F150 when a Canyon, Ridgeline, Frontier, etc, is all you need? HK makes fantastic firearms but like I said...you are talking about modding it to make it what you need. The PX4 is like that from the onset, maybe still even better, from a trigger perspective. So it has to be apples to apples not apples to oranges. A PX4 trigger worked over is simply magnificent. I have a lot of respect from EL. He’s running the shit out of them. I just happen to need a large trigger guard and paddles for glove work. Way easier to use with a gloved hand.

[Doc_Glock]

I am far from an expert, but the concerns about the P30l trigger seem overblown. I prefer it to Berettas. I don’t know if it is where it breaks or what, but that front sight does not move at all for me on DA pulls. It is long and smooth, just a little heavy with a steady build to an almost imperceptible break.

[Dagga Boy]

Bodhi, I agree on the triggers. I wish there was a factory gun built for shooters and not as Mil/LE issue Guns. Trust me, but a 20 pound Beretta military hammer spring in a PX4 and that trigger wouldn’t be very good. Also, note any decent trigger in many of these guns are the “competition” triggers that are the gun company lawyers words for not our problem.
If we could start separating the “business” “marketing”, and “legal” inputs from gun companies, we could have some great factory guns....until it went out of business.

[JodyH]

Some get real touchy when you critique Heckler and Koch,
The only time I correct critiques of H&K is when people don't understand why H&K thinks they suck or why H&K hates them.
You either "get" H&K's design philosophy or you don't... and in typical German engineer fashion, they don't care whether you get it or not.

[Bodhi]

The only time I correct critiques of H&K is when people don't understand why H&K thinks they suck or why H&K hates them.
You either "get" H&K's design philosophy or you don't... and in typical German engineer fashion, they don't care whether you get it or not.

Oh I agree with you. .mil and contracts supersede all. As I said to DB prior, I know all about it. But you also need to keep in mind their financial position. If said company does the same thing over and over again, and can’t get out of the red, maybe change your “philosophy” a little bit. They are starting to, with the Veeps. Kind of a day late and a dollar short but at least they are finally sitting at the table. Civvie market, work on it. Maybe just get your trigger at the table with a 92, a Sig P series, a PX4, what have you, for your next TDA because I am a fan, just a critical one when spending this money. No company is above critique, especially from those who spend money with them. I know their philosophy and know their financial position. Ask other firearm manufacturers how they like the US market. They ain’t too none happy today but in general. If they can build such an outstanding striker trigger they can make an outstanding TDA. For now I have to take care of that myself, and I look forward to picking my new P30’s next weekend from the gunny.

[JodyH]

But you also need to keep in mind their financial position. If said company does the same thing over and over again, and can’t get out of the red,
Their financial position has very little to do with their product engineering.
It's about 50% their last CEO basically using corporate funds as his personal piggy bank and 50% German arms export laws hosing them.

The "sophisticated" American consumer isn't even a rounding error on their financial statements (and never will be).
We're way behind Gov/Mil/LE, Rainbow Six fans, Airsofters, dirt clod shooters, Instagram Picassos and other assorted Fanbois.
Spend 10 minutes on HKPro and you'll see that more American H&K owners worry about how to fill in the engraving with Crayon than how to improve their shooting performance.

[MSparks909]

Spend 10 minutes on HKPro and you'll see that more American H&K owners worry about how to fill in the engraving with Crayon than how to improve their shooting performance.

Tangent but that isn’t only limited to HKPro...browse around any brand centric gun forum and you will be immersed in derp. It’s almost overwhelming sometimes. PF is literally the only gun forum I bother with anymore.

Back to the P30...

[willie]

Their financial position has very little to do with their product engineering.
It's about 50% their last CEO basically using corporate funds as his personal piggy bank and 50% German arms export laws hosing them.

The "sophisticated" American consumer isn't even a rounding error on their financial statements (and never will be).
We're way behind Gov/Mil/LE, Rainbow Six fans, Airsofters, dirt clod shooters, Instagram Picassos and other assorted Fanbois.
Spend 10 minutes on HKPro and you'll see that more American H&K owners worry about how to fill in the engraving with Crayon than how to improve their shooting performance.

Hey I found my category--dirt clod shooter. Now, can you recommend the best Crayon. I wanna do it right. :cool:

[CDFIII]

Hypothetically speaking if a guy has hands big enough to run a P30s cocked and locked and reliably work the safety on and off every time does anyone see an issue running the gun this way?
I put sights on a friends P30Ls this morning and took it out for a run at the range. This guy will probably shoot this gun 2-3 times a year running a total of maybe 300rds. through it if he is lucky. Not much of shooter but a truly good friend. So I decided to give his P30Ls a break in for him and I wanted to actually shoot with these sights before the pistol was locked away from the light of day.
So I ran around 400rds. of various brands and weights from the gun to test function. I ran it all but maybe 50rds. in single action using the safety 1911 style. I had better times running drills and it actually felt pretty good. No issues working the safety from concealed draws or snicking it back on when needed. I rode it like I do on 1911's and it seemed to work for me just fine. After shooting 400rds. or so I noticed 0 hotspots on my thumb and all seemed fine.
I have a couple of P30l guns in V3 and I shoot them just fine. DA has been tweaked just like most others do here with light FPB and nickel sear spring... But Damn it running the P30Ls in cocked and locked fashion was just down right fun to shoot. I have to give his gun back and after putting some sights on it I am really thinking about duplicating it or possibly just stealing his;). Soooo..Anyone see any issues running the gun in this fashion?
22073

[JodyH]

Hypothetically speaking if a guy has hands big enough to run a P30s cocked and locked and reliably work the safety on and off every time does anyone see an issue running the gun this way?
The only issue I've had running H&K's that way is if you ride the safety hard like I do, you can inadvertently de-cock the pistol under recoil.
When I did the cocked and locked thing with H&K's I always converted them to the safety only, no de-cock variant.
Not sure if this applies to the P30 as i've only had them in LEM.

[CDFIII]

The only issue I've had running H&K's that way is if you ride the safety hard like I do, you can inadvertently de-cock the pistol under recoil.
When I did the cocked and locked thing with H&K's I always converted them to the safety only, no de-cock variant.
Not sure if this applies to the P30 as i've only had them in LEM.

The great thing about the P30 is the safety lever is just that. A safety lever:). Decock function is on the back of the slide so you don't have the issue like a USP or HK45 series. So no need for the variant 9 plates eliminate the decock function.

[hufnagel]

Hypothetically speaking if a guy has hands big enough to run a P30s cocked and locked and reliably work the safety on and off every time does anyone see an issue running the gun this way?
I put sights on a friends P30Ls this morning and took it out for a run at the range. This guy will probably shoot this gun 2-3 times a year running a total of maybe 300rds. through it if he is lucky. Not much of shooter but a truly good friend. So I decided to give his P30Ls a break in for him and I wanted to actually shoot with these sights before the pistol was locked away from the light of day.
So I ran around 400rds. of various brands and weights from the gun to test function. I ran it all but maybe 50rds. in single action using the safety 1911 style. I had better times running drills and it actually felt pretty good. No issues working the safety from concealed draws or snicking it back on when needed. I rode it like I do on 1911's and it seemed to work for me just fine. After shooting 400rds. or so I noticed 0 hotspots on my thumb and all seemed fine.
I have a couple of P30l guns in V3 and I shoot them just fine. DA has been tweaked just like most others do here with light FPB and nickel sear spring... But Damn it running the P30Ls in cocked and locked fashion was just down right fun to shoot. I have to give his gun back and after putting some sights on it I am really thinking about duplicating it or possibly just stealing his;). Soooo..Anyone see any issues running the gun in this fashion?
22073

Not an operator, but I can't see any reason why that's not a viable option. My biggest concern would be the hammer sticking out like that and getting snagged on something.

[JodyH]

The great thing about the P30 is the safety lever is just that. A safety lever:). Decock function is on the back of the slide so you don't have the issue like a USP or HK45 series. So no need for the variant 9 plates eliminate the decock function.
I couldn't remember if the P30 had the rear slide de-cocker or not, carry on then.
:cool:

[CDFIII]

Not an operator, but I can't see any reason why that's not a viable option. My biggest concern would be the hammer sticking out like that and getting snagged on something.

I had that thought as well. After shooting it this morning I proceeded to through it in a 5 Shot Leather SME and take my toddler out for the day. 9 hours of AIWB and being a human jungle gym and I nor he even noticed the hammer so i might be ok there. For some reason it just feels so wrong how much I like this gun.

[hufnagel]

If I were going to do it (the cocked-n-locked method), and assuming it's possible with the right combination of parts, I'd probably start with a V3S, convert it to V0 and use a bobbed hammer instead of spurred. You'd have a safety, a decocker, a DA pull on decock, and a LEM trigger otherwise (assuming I'm reading right how a V0 works.)

[CDFIII]

Wouldn’t going to VO basically be creating a P30LEM with safety therefore eliminating the single action (the part I like) all together? I could swap out the hammer to a spur less but I don’t think I would loose much length.

[JeffDG]

The Decocker on the P30 is a separate button on the back of the slide.

[hufnagel]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19731-Creating-a-P30S-V1-LEM

just popped up on my searching.
also P30LS LEM does exist (good luck finding one though), if you don't want the decock function.

ETA: there's exactly 1 P30LS LEM on gunbroker, but it's a .40S&W and they want stupid money for it.

[Whiskey_Bravo]

I have one of the P30LS LEM 9mm Pistols. It is such a smart combination but I understand why there isn’t a huge demand for these in the US LEO market. PD Firearms training is almost universally to a standard instead of true performance. The addition of a manual safety to an LEM gun would likely dry the average cop’s brain.

If I could choose my own duty weapon to carry at work tomorrow, it would likely be the P30LS LEM. But that’s because I understand and appreciate it’s merit.

Apparently this configuration is the new standard issue sidearm for the Norwegian SF Teams.

[Default.mp3]

Hypothetically speaking if a guy has hands big enough to run a P30s cocked and locked and reliably work the safety on and off every time does anyone see an issue running the gun this way?I don't think hand size by itself matters that much. IIRC, both YVK and GJM have tried the safeties on the H&Ks and found them wanting, due to their positioning; conversely, I've shot mine exclusively in C&L, and have only occasionally had minor abrasion at the base of the thumb. I wear size small Outdoor Research gloves, and size medium medical gloves; due to my exclusive experience with H&K safeties (~3606 rounds through a V9 HK45, ~27324 through my V3 P30LSes) I tend to find 1911 safeties sit too low for me.

[hufnagel]

You know what I like the best? That we have this many good, viable choices to discuss.

[CDFIII]

I don't think hand size by itself matters that much. IIRC, both YVK and GJM have tried the safeties on the H&Ks and found them wanting, due to their positioning; conversely, I've shot mine exclusively in C&L, and have only occasionally had minor abrasion at the base of the thumb. I wear size small Outdoor Research gloves, and size medium medical gloves; due to my exclusive experience with H&K safeties (~3606 rounds through a V9 HK45, ~27324 through my V3 P30LSes) I tend to find 1911 safeties sit too low for me.
I had heard from others in the past a about the safety usage (riding the safety) just being either in the wrong spot or their hands where just too small to for it to feel right. Today I personally had the complete opposite experience. I really liked using it this way. So much so that I feel like I am cheating on my V3 and LEM Guns with a dirty minded mistress. Maybe just it was just a first date thrill so to speak. I already called my buddy and refused to return it until I get a few more range trips.

[Bodhi]

Their financial position has very little to do with their product engineering.
It's about 50% their last CEO basically using corporate funds as his personal piggy bank and 50% German arms export laws hosing them.

The "sophisticated" American consumer isn't even a rounding error on their financial statements (and never will be).
We're way behind Gov/Mil/LE, Rainbow Six fans, Airsofters, dirt clod shooters, Instagram Picassos and other assorted Fanbois.
Spend 10 minutes on HKPro and you'll see that more American H&K owners worry about how to fill in the engraving with Crayon than how to improve their shooting performance.

Until they are, good luck to them. My friends in the business say “You can buy HK for a dollar If you’ll assume their debt.”

[TheNewbie]

I have one of the P30LS LEM 9mm Pistols. It is such a smart combination but I understand why there isn’t a huge demand for these in the US LEO market. PD Firearms training is almost universally to a standard instead of true performance. The addition of a manual safety to an LEM gun would likely dry the average cop’s brain.

If I could choose my own duty weapon to carry at work tomorrow, it would likely be the P30LS LEM. But that’s because I understand and appreciate it’s merit.

Apparently this configuration is the new standard issue sidearm for the Norwegian SF Teams.


How hard is an HK LEM with a safety to obtain? Is it something you would have to send to the factory to have done?

[hufnagel]

Unlike the USP series or HK45, the P30 isn't officially safety or variant adjustable (except for V1 and V2, as it's only springs).

[Whiskey_Bravo]

How hard is an HK LEM with a safety to obtain? Is it something you would have to send to the factory to have done?

HK will not endorse or perform the conversion of V3 P series guns to V1 LEM. If you want to do it yourself it will work but by eliminating the the decock lever on the back of the slide, it leaves an opening to the left of the hammer.

HK only imported something like 1000 of the HK P30LS V1 Pistols into the US. I lucked out years ago and found someone on HKPro willing to trade me one for the P30LS V3 that I had. I later traded my V1 to DB and recently got it back. He has like three more anyways!

If you have any other questions DB may have more info than me.

[GJM]

As regards the thumb safety, I am at a point I want all of my pistols to have one, or none except a 1911. That keeps me from finding the safety in a position different than I expect.

[Whiskey_Bravo]

As regards the thumb safety, I am at a point I want all of my pistols to have one, or none except a 1911. That keeps me from finding the safety in a position different than I expect.

I get that. However, I feel the same could be said about a de-cock lever.

[willie]

A properly trained person could run this HK cocked and locked. As one who cut his teeth on 1911s and DA/SA pistols like the Smith 39 series, I would not choose to carry the P30 cocked and locked. I see no advantage, and at the same time, I see a possible risk of ND. I'm not fearful of cocked and locked. I merely do not see the advantage. The properly trained individual would not be handicapped with a DA/SA pistol in my opinion. I was blessed with very large, strong hands and the opportunity to learn double action shooting from a master and on somebody else's dime. Hence my opinion may be biased. I learned here that safety concerns dictate decocking DA/SA pistols after firing during a defense shooting and while waiting for another opportunity to fire. That would not have been my practice but now would be. But, under no circumstances would I suggest switching back and forth between decocking and locking and cocking even though the HK in the post would permit doing so. Choose one or the other.

[Dagga Boy]

How hard is an HK LEM with a safety to obtain? Is it something you would have to send to the factory to have done?

Depends which model. For the ones that have a rear decocker.....super rare. I have a P30LS. One of 500 brought in the US (500 in 9mm 500 in .40).

To do the HK45 series guns is easy. My HK45 full size guns are set up as V1's with safety's and serve in the bedside/home defense role with an X300U. Because it is stored off body and will be likely grabbed in an emergency in the dead of night, it is stored safety on. I look at as a bit of an extra measure for unauthorized access. If I went back to uniformed cop work, this would likely be my duty gun as well. I started using safety's for off body stuff when working a protection detail with VIP kids at a school. Water that extra layer of security for my secondary bag gun or my primary if I got hurt or separated from a pistol. The DA/SA with a safety activated on the bag gun on the pair of HK45C's I was using along with the P7 I had in my chore coat pocket gave me a better feeling if a kid for some reason got access to the gun. I was unique in that approach as most of my co-workers carried Glocks and didn't give a crap. Simply different mindset and outlook's on trying to mitigate bad outcomes.

For most normal use, I do not use a mechanical safety while carrying the gun except with 1911 or BHP. One thing I really like about the HK safety is I can safe the gun during administrative handling. I consider that a solid positive.

[GJM]

A properly trained person could run this HK cocked and locked. As one who cut his teeth on 1911s and DA/SA pistols like the Smith 39 series, I would not choose to carry the P30 cocked and locked. I see no advantage, and at the same time, I see a possible risk of ND. I'm not fearful of cocked and locked. I merely do not see the advantage. The properly trained individual would not be handicapped with a DA/SA pistol in my opinion. I was blessed with very large, strong hands and the opportunity to learn double action shooting from a master and on somebody else's dime. Hence my opinion may be biased. I learned here that safety concerns dictate decocking DA/SA pistols after firing during a defense shooting and while waiting for another opportunity to fire. That would not have been my practice but now would be. But, under no circumstances would I suggest switching back and forth between decocking and locking and cocking even though the HK in the post would permit doing so. Choose one or the other.

My concern with the P30 and USP thumb safety is not an ND, it is no discharge.


I get that. However, I feel the same could be said about a de-cock lever.

I could understand that thinking, but the decocker doesn’t bother me the same way.

[CDFIII]

One thing I noticed today and yesterday while shooting the V3s that riding the safety really seemed to help tie me into the gun a bit better( probably makes no sense but I get the same feeling when I run 1911's) than my LEM or standard V3. Another 200rds. today and I am still really liking it.Also as stated by DB the safety is nice for admin. handling. Plus it's always a nice advantage around little ones. I know that no weapon is child proof and never should be left unattended..period.
As far as carry I personally see it being no more of an issue than a 1911 and possibly safer than striker fired guns carried aiwb. Hammer can be held in same manner while holstering with safety on.

[CDFIII]

[QUOTE=GJM;680558]My concern with the P30 and USP thumb safety is not an ND, it is no discharge.
Meaning... you are afraid of not snicking the safety to the off position? At least that is the way I am reading it. Couldn't that be said about any pistol with a manual safety though including 1911 or the EDC9? Or is it something specific to the P30/USP you have noticed?

[willie]

I think he meant that he worried about flicking the safety with force sufficient enough to carry it through the decock position.

[hufnagel]

I think he meant that he worried about flicking the safety with force sufficient enough to carry it through the decock position.

P30's don't decock through the safety lever.

[willie]

Thanks for correcting that.

[Jaywalker]

... I would not choose to carry the P30 cocked and locked. I see no advantage... For you, there is no advantaged to cocked and locked, but that doesn't mean others might find an advantage you don't. For those with shorter fingers there is a huge advantage. Personally, I wear a golf glove in size "Medium Large Cadet," which means a medium large hand but with shorter fingers; golf shops sell a ton of those things, which means there are a bunch of shooters who could potentially benefit from a shorter trigger reach than the standard DA/SA that Sig, H&K, and Beretta 92 series allow.

I bought two P30 pistols recently, a P30SK with v1 LEM and a P30S v3 DA/SA with a safety in order to evaluate both. I prefer the full-sized DA/SA, but since there's no trigger reach shortener (à la v4.1 for the LEM) for the v3, I will likely carry it cocked and locked. I'll carry it that way until I decide whether to invest in some serious gunsmithing that might lighten the DA stroke enough to possibly make up for my lack of leverage in DA. After that, possibly I'll agree with you.

[GJM]

[QUOTE=GJM;680558]My concern with the P30 and USP thumb safety is not an ND, it is no discharge.
Meaning... you are afraid of not snicking the safety to the off position? At least that is the way I am reading it. Couldn't that be said about any pistol with a manual safety though including 1911 or the EDC9? Or is it something specific to the P30/USP you have noticed?

When my hands grasp a 1911, use of the safety is ingrained after decades of shooting them. Almost every other handgun I shoot is striker, DA/SA or LEM without a thumb safety, hence the potential for confusion when a particular P30 has a safety, and my half a dozen other of them do not. The other issue is I have trained myself to place my dominant thumb over the base of my support thumb, as I recently saw a photo of Kyle Defoor demonstrating, so as not to bump slide stop levers inadvertently. Using the thumb safety requires me to change my drawstroke, slowing me down considerably, and is the reason I prefer DA hammer down to SA cocked and locked on the P30.

[A-Train]

Depends which model. For the ones that have a rear decocker.....super rare. I have a P30LS. One of 500 brought in the US (500 in 9mm 500 in .40).

To do the HK45 series guns is easy. My HK45 full size guns are set up as V1's with safety's and serve in the bedside/home defense role with an X300U. Because it is stored off body and will be likely grabbed in an emergency in the dead of night, it is stored safety on. I look at as a bit of an extra measure for unauthorized access. If I went back to uniformed cop work, this would likely be my duty gun as well. I started using safety's for off body stuff when working a protection detail with VIP kids at a school. Water that extra layer of security for my secondary bag gun or my primary if I got hurt or separated from a pistol. The DA/SA with a safety activated on the bag gun on the pair of HK45C's I was using along with the P7 I had in my chore coat pocket gave me a better feeling if a kid for some reason got access to the gun. I was unique in that approach as most of my co-workers carried Glocks and didn't give a crap. Simply different mindset and outlook's on trying to mitigate bad outcomes.

For most normal use, I do not use a mechanical safety while carrying the gun except with 1911 or BHP. One thing I really like about the HK safety is I can safe the gun during administrative handling. I consider that a solid positive.

This is a great post and I agree 100%. I wish I had picked up one of those P30LS with the LEM during the very few times I’ve seen them available on the HKPro Forum.

Unfortunately I had to settle for having my HK competent gunsmith buddy converting my three P30S DA/SA pistols to the LEM trigger, retaining the safety, and removing the thumb decocker. The bad news is that wasn’t cheap after buying the parts (if you can find them in stock anywhere) and paying even my buddy to do the work. Add to that fact, that as someone mentioned, HK doesn’t sanction or recognize this particular modification and it probably voids my warranty, I’m not sure the conversion is for everyone.

That being said I love, love, love the P30 in this configuration. The LEM trigger gives a striker-esque consistent trigger pull every time, with a more forgiving action for most real world high stress situations and the added peace of mind of a manual safety for all that administrative handling that occupies about 95% of most people gun touching time. It also makes me feel better with my three kids, or anyone one else around, if One of my guns is off-body (although my kids they have all been shooting and know better). It’s my perfect handgun.

After serving in the Army for 12 years I’ve seen enough AD’s due to stuff getting caught in the trigger guard during holstering, forgetting to decock, sloppy or exhausted administrative gun handling, etc... to know that properly used safeties can and will prevent accidents if used properly.

I also feel they don’t dramatically slow down most well trained and practiced shooters enough to make a significant difference in time on target. Everyone thinks they are going to be in some kind of quick draw situation where they need to engage multiple bad guys in some movie-like shootout. I think most police statistics don’t bear that out. Situational awareness will keep you out of 99.9% of those type of rare situations. If a couple fractional seconds is going to be the difference between life and death I’ve probably placed myself in a really bad situation I shouldn’t be in anyway.

I, for one, am someone that is a big fan of manual safeties and to couple that with the LEM trigger is about as close to a perfect combination as I could hope for. I just wish HK would make the regular P30S in that option from the factory, or at least support the conversion for those that choose to make it.

[Ichiban]

Don't know if this is allowed (I assume it will be deleted and I will be chastised if that's the case) and I have no affiliation with the seller, but this popped up on the local ArmsList listings today.

http://www.armslist.com/posts/7007449/fort-collins-colorado-handguns-for-sale--hk-p30ls-4-44--v1--9mm-w-box-and-extra-mag

[MGW]

I want to try a P30 out but I'm still undecided between LEM and TDA. TDA makes more sense as I'm used to shooting classic series Sig. I also don't trust myself enough to say I'm only going to shoot LEM for the next several months. A small dealer back home has a new 9mm P30 V3 S for $800. Would it be possible to delete the safety later if someone wanted to? Should I keep looking and get a standard V3 instead?

[JTQ]

I want to try a P30 out but I'm still undecided between LEM and TDA. TDA makes more sense as I'm used to shooting classic series Sig.
These various HK/hammer fired threads have made me wonder, do we have an HK trigger pull weight thread or post laying around somewhere that compares the various trigger pulls of USP, P2000, P30 with DA/SA and LEM versions?

[CDFIII]

I want to try a P30 out but I'm still undecided between LEM and TDA. TDA makes more sense as I'm used to shooting classic series Sig. I also don't trust myself enough to say I'm only going to shoot LEM for the next several months. A small dealer back home has a new 9mm P30 V3 S for $800. Would it be possible to delete the safety later if someone wanted to? Should I keep looking and get a standard V3 instead?
It is not feasible to take the safety model and convert it to standard V3. There is a detent under the safety so removing the safety would leave it exposed. I guess it’s possible if you want the exposed detent hole but if you don’t want a safety go regular V3.

[MSparks909]

I want to try a P30 out but I'm still undecided between LEM and TDA. TDA makes more sense as I'm used to shooting classic series Sig. I also don't trust myself enough to say I'm only going to shoot LEM for the next several months. A small dealer back home has a new 9mm P30 V3 S for $800. Would it be possible to delete the safety later if someone wanted to? Should I keep looking and get a standard V3 instead?

I’d keep looking. I *think* you can remove the safety but you’ll have a hole in the frame? I could be wrong. Not a HK expert. Definitely get a TDA V3 though.

My P30 TDA trigger setup is:
12# “Enhanced” hammer spring from HK Parts
“Enhanced” light firing pin block spring
Nickel plated sear spring m

Yields a very shootable DA around 8.5#. SA is around 4-4.5#. Reset is longer than a P series/Beretta but it’s not really noticeable unless you pin the trigger during shooting and try to ride the reset (which you shouldn’t be doing anyways).

[MGW]

I will keep looking then. Thank you for the information.

[Grey]

I need to find a p30 locally to rent, I keep finding that the vp9 fits me really well.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[TCFD273]

I want to try a P30 out but I'm still undecided between LEM and TDA. TDA makes more sense as I'm used to shooting classic series Sig. I also don't trust myself enough to say I'm only going to shoot LEM for the next several months. A small dealer back home has a new 9mm P30 V3 S for $800. Would it be possible to delete the safety later if someone wanted to? Should I keep looking and get a standard V3 instead?

I recently picked up a P30sk V1, it’s my first HK and LEM pistol. I’m a long time TDA Beretta guy but wanted something smaller to carry from time to time.

I honestly don’t see the big issue with the LEM.....sure my splits were around .19-.21 on Bill Drills, when i shot Glocks I could run .16’s and my Beretta’s are close....could be it’s a sub compact or maybe the LEM, it does have a long reset. But I find it far more shootable than my G26 or G43. It works for me in its intended role.

I paid $545 for the SK with factory night sights. For the price point and features, I don’t think anything else competes with it in the sub compact role.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MGW]

I need to find a p30 locally to rent, I keep finding that the vp9 fits me really well.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

I owned two VP9's at one point. I have very few rounds through a P30 but to me it just feels more solid. Not sure how else to quantify it.

[A-Train]

Don't know if this is allowed (I assume it will be deleted and I will be chastised if that's the case) and I have no affiliation with the seller, but this popped up on the local ArmsList listings today.

http://www.armslist.com/posts/7007449/fort-collins-colorado-handguns-for-sale--hk-p30ls-4-44--v1--9mm-w-box-and-extra-mag

You’re the devil!!!! LOL!

I’m calling this store tomorrow. Thanks for the heads up. :-)

[JodyH]

My new P30 9mm came in today.
It's been so long since I had a P30 I forgot how compact it actually is.
For some reason I thought is was a lot closer to the P30L in size (which I have in 40).
I also realized I had ordered it in V1 LEM... oops.
No problemo... 5 minutes with my handy TRS pliers and a new V2 TRS is now installed.
I'm off to the range tomorrow with a 1/2 case of 124gr. S&B ammo, a couple hundred assorted JHP's and a whole stack of preloaded magazines to see if it's as much fun to shoot as I remember it being.

:cool:

[newyork]

Congratulations! I’m so jealous!

[A-Train]

Ichiban

You not only share the same name as my favorite Japanese hibachi restaurant here in Pittsburgh. You are also the reason I now finally own one of those rare factory built HK P30LS pistols with the LEM trigger. I called Friendly Pawn today and bought that pistol. My gun addiction thanks you and my bank account curses you (along with my wife if she knew but I see no reason to tell her, Merry Christmas to me, ;) )

In all seriousness thanks for the lead on this elusive pistol. Sometimes things just fall in place.



Don't know if this is allowed (I assume it will be deleted and I will be chastised if that's the case) and I have no affiliation with the seller, but this popped up on the local ArmsList listings today.

http://www.armslist.com/posts/7007449/fort-collins-colorado-handguns-for-sale--hk-p30ls-4-44--v1--9mm-w-box-and-extra-mag

[JodyH]

Drinking coffee, loading mags, waiting for the temperature to get above freezing so I can give the new P30 a good wringing out.

Headed out with around 750 rounds total for this morning.
5 different JHP's - Winchester 127 +P+, Gold Dot 115 +P+, Barnes 115 Tac-XP, Black Hills 115 Tac-XP +P, Federal 124 HST +P
3 different FMJ's - S&B 124, Magtech 124, Magtech 115

22145

[Trukinjp13]

I really like the p30 guns. I have shot a p30 and a p30l. Not a lot of round through them though. My biggest issue at the time was the tda trigger. I had my mk25 with a srt that I was shooting primarily. The hk trigger was nowhere near it. Looking back and all the tda experience I have gained. I wish I would have given the p30 a better shake. I would like to have a p30ls gun. Esp. given the few tweaks you can do to help with the trigger. My wife was with for both guns. She had quite a few failures with the p30. But none with the p30l. I believe it was a mix of maybe weak recoil spring and her grip on the p30. She has never had problems like that shooting before. The p30l she enjoyed quite a bit.

Glad to see the revision. HK builds some serious use shit. I wish they would build a shooters gun like mentioned.

Ps. I also sucked at the decocker. Also training issue for me. No tda guns anymore though, so that would help if I pick one up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[P30]

My new P30 9mm came in today.
Needless to say what I think about your choice. :)



5 minutes with my handy TRS pliers and a new V2 TRS is now installed.

Have you ever tried the V4 TRS? Its spring rate is between V1 and V2. I think, it is the golden mean of all LEM variants.


PS:
The V4 TRS gives a trigger weight of 27 N. This is the weight that HK originally proposed to the German police.

From the genesis story of the LEM trigger (https://www.all4shooters.com/de/Shooting/Kurzwaffen/Polizeipistolen-Kurzwaffe/) (in German):

Mit diesem Prototypen ging es nun auf Tour durch mehrere Polizeibehörden. Dabei fällten nicht nur Schießausbilder ihr Urteil, sondern vor allem Kollegen des Wach- und Wechseldienstes - diejenigen also, die bei der Arbeit das größte Risiko tragen. Das einhellige Urteil der Basis: “So etwas hätten wir auch gern.”

Einziger Kritikpunkt war der mit zirka 27 Newton zu niedrige Abzugswiderstand - die Gefahr einer unbeabsichtigten Schussabgabe war immer noch zu groß. Diesen Wert auf etwa 32 Newton zu erhöhen, stellte für die Konstrukteure kein Problem dar.

My translation:

With this prototype, Wolfgang Dicke went on tour through several police departments. Shooting trainers and police men tested it. Their unanimous verdict: "We would like to have this trigger." They only criticised the light trigger weight of 27 N. To increase it to 32 N was no problem for the engineers.

[MGW]

JodyH do you have a preferred place for ordering HK’s from or are you working with a local dealer? Life’s too short not to try a P30 LEM. I’ve been kicking it around for to long.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[P30]

This is the V4 TRS, which I mean:
hkparts.net/shop/pc/P30-P30L-Trigger-Return-Spring-V4-Medium-Weight-388p16745.htm (https://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/P30-P30L-Trigger-Return-Spring-V4-Medium-Weight-388p16745.htm)

[Balisong]

My new P30 9mm came in today.
It's been so long since I had a P30 I forgot how compact it actually is.
For some reason I thought is was a lot closer to the P30L in size (which I have in 40).
I also realized I had ordered it in V1 LEM... oops.
No problemo... 5 minutes with my handy TRS pliers and a new V2 TRS is now installed.
I'm off to the range tomorrow with a 1/2 case of 124gr. S&B ammo, a couple hundred assorted JHP's and a whole stack of preloaded magazines to see if it's as much fun to shoot as I remember it being.

:cool:

Congrats!!! I love my usp compact but I'm pretty sure I'll also end up with a P30/L. Now what does this trigger mod that you did do for you?

[1slow]

Drinking coffee, loading mags, waiting for the temperature to get above freezing so I can give the new P30 a good wringing out.

Headed out with around 750 rounds total for this morning.
5 different JHP's - Winchester 127 +P+, Gold Dot 115 +P+, Barnes 115 Tac-XP, Black Hills 115 Tac-XP +P, Federal 124 HST +P
3 different FMJ's - S&B 124, Magtech 124, Magtech 115

22145

What do you think of the P30 vs. P30L in LEM 9mm ?
I noticed with an X400 mounted the P30L9mm LEM had issues with 115gr ball brass case ammo. I think the load was a little light. The P30 9mm LEM did fine with the same ammo.

[Guinnessman]

JodyH do you have a preferred place for ordering HK’s from or are you working with a local dealer? Life’s too short not to try a P30 LEM. I’ve been kicking it around for to long.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Try G and R Tactical or Cross Creek Guns if you want an online dealer. Mike at Cross Creek has been fantastic on all HK purchases.