Question for SouthNarc re: J Frames & ECQC

[Nephrology]

Sorry to post a rather pointed question for an SME (all others are welcome to weigh in too) but I've noticed that the SouthNarc in particular has made specific mention of the J frame before. I am curious as to what you think the J frame does well in particular and what kind of niche you see it filling within the context of ECQC and self defense in general. Please note that while I haven't taken any of your classes (the last couple years have been tight with money and tighter with time) but it is definitely on my to-do list!

Please note I am not really trying to re-hash the "do you have enough gun" debate that seems to follow around threads about the J frame. I am mostly curious to hear what the J frame does well (or doesn't do well) in the context of the close, messy engagements that SouthNarc seems to have made a good training career preparing people for.

[Sparks2112]

I am mostly curious to hear what the J frame does well (or doesn't do well) in the context of the close, messy engagements that SouthNarc seems to have made a good training career preparing people for.

Try and push a J-frame out of battery. ;)

[SouthNarc]

Nephrology no problem on asking a specific question of me. J frames....let's see...

I carried a 640 and 442 as an ankle gun in a uniform and carried the 442 ALOT when I was buying dope. Quite often just stuck in my pants and several times in a Thunderwear rig.

As far as J frames and ECQ stuff, if guys give me a heads-up before they come to class I can usually scrounge a box of 38 sims and let them run their J frames in evolutions. Hell I've probably had about ten guys over the past nine years run their J frame through the entire class as a primary.

What I've seen are that J frames are much harder to keep from running, as Sparks noted. That being said, I've seen it done more than once when someone got a really tight grip on the cylinder in an evo. Usually a two handed grip.

J frames are definitely more retainable and it's MUCH harder to get one out of someone's hand. There's just not as much leverage.

I've had some people say after taking the coursework that they wanted to get an 8 shot snubby and carry it appendix, after seeing so many guns go out of battery in evolutions. I think that's a bit much and I wouldn't do that, but it certainly does speak to the efficacy of a revolver when looking at the entangled problem.

Does that help?

[JodyH]

As far as J frames and ECQ stuff, if guys give me a heads-up before they come to class I can usually scrounge a box of 38 sims and let them run their J frames in evolutions. Hell I've probably had about ten guys over the past nine years run their J frame through the entire class as a primary.
Challenge accepted... Albuquerque, November.
:cool:

[SouthNarc]

Challenge accepted... Albuquerque, November.
:cool:

Just remind me to bring 38 or I'll forget.

[Cecil Burch]

I've done it Jody. Just remember that during the live fire to wear a shirt you don't care about, because it WILL sport permanent burn marks. I ruined one of my favorite Hawaiian shirts that way....

And practice reloads A LOT beforehand. It seemed like half my energy was spent keeping the snub fed.

[Jay Cunningham]

Good post OP!

[Sparks2112]

Just remind me to bring 38 or I'll forget.

How much of a heads up do you want before the september class? I'll send you a text. :)

[TGS]

Craig,

Any special considerations with firing a 1-7/8" barreled snub from the 3 position? Accuracy, safety, ect.

[SouthNarc]

Craig,

Any special considerations with firing a 1-7/8" barreled snub from the 3 position? Accuracy, safety, ect.

No other than if you're gonna' fire throughout the horizontal line of presentation as the gun is moving forward, be really careful about collecting the gun with the support hand behind the muzzle. There's not ANY margin for error there.

[Nephrology]

Nephrology no problem on asking a specific question of me. J frames....let's see...

I carried a 640 and 442 as an ankle gun in a uniform and carried the 442 ALOT when I was buying dope. Quite often just stuck in my pants and several times in a Thunderwear rig.

As far as J frames and ECQ stuff, if guys give me a heads-up before they come to class I can usually scrounge a box of 38 sims and let them run their J frames in evolutions. Hell I've probably had about ten guys over the past nine years run their J frame through the entire class as a primary.

What I've seen are that J frames are much harder to keep from running, as Sparks noted. That being said, I've seen it done more than once when someone got a really tight grip on the cylinder in an evo. Usually a two handed grip.

J frames are definitely more retainable and it's MUCH harder to get one out of someone's hand. There's just not as much leverage.

I've had some people say after taking the coursework that they wanted to get an 8 shot snubby and carry it appendix, after seeing so many guns go out of battery in evolutions. I think that's a bit much and I wouldn't do that, but it certainly does speak to the efficacy of a revolver when looking at the entangled problem.

Does that help?

That does indeed! One further question - besides the ability to resist going OOB, do you think there are any specific advantages/disadvantages to a J vs. a single stack 9mm (Shield, etc) in the context of the stuff you teach? IE Do you often find that running dry before scoring a meaningful hit is an issue in EQC evos, or are there other issues that those in your course that have run J frames run into as well? Are most of those students able to make reasonable hits under stress?


Good post OP!

Thanks! I've been carrying a J frame a lot in this terribly muggy July weather out here and I find that it's a gun I can have with me everywhere. I am trying to flesh out its advantages/disadvantages in the kinds of fights that SN has described as being at the core of his curriculum.

[SouthNarc]

One further question - besides the ability to resist going OOB, do you think there are any specific advantages/disadvantages to a J vs. a single stack 9mm (Shield, etc) in the context of the stuff you teach? IE Do you often find that running dry before scoring a meaningful hit is an issue in EQC evos, or are there other issues that those in your course that have run J frames run into as well? Are most of those students able to make reasonable hits under stress?


Well I haven't had anyone run a single stack Shield/PPS type handgun in evolutions because there aren't retrofit Sims kits for them.

Running dry usually isn't the issue. The issue generally is either not being able to make a meaningful hit before an entanglement occurs or coming out of one with a non-functioning gun because it went out of battery with hands all over it because someone didn't/couldn't hold their thumb pectoral index.

[orionz06]

How much of a heads up do you want before the september class? I'll send you a text. :)

Get at me before then, I'll have something for ya to try.

[Sparks2112]

Get at me before then, I'll have something for ya to try.

Heh. Now I'm intrigued.

[Chuck Haggard]

This train of thought was why I played with the idea of using the 242 I used to own or a 296 for AIWB carry. I thought seven rounds of .38 +P in a gun that could expend all ammo in hard contact would be a nice thing to have in a FUT.

[Nephrology]

Yeah, I'll definitely admit that the J frame does have a certain appeal for AIWB carry. Not to mention that, likely for the same reasons SN carried it on dope buys, it's just basically invisible.... something about the organic shape of the boot grip makes it really disappear even in tighter fitting clothing. A pair of CT laser grips probably would be a worthwhile investment for me in the near future.... probably very , very useful up close.

[NickA]

IIRC there's a pretty funny story about a j-frame in an ankle holster (or lack thereof) in an ECQC evo :D

[1slow]

It would seem that as you go to a larger revolver you give the enemy more leverage to disarm you.
I think a square butt J frame 1.8-2.25" barrel would be easiest to hold on to, though the square butt is not as easily hidden.
I seem to remember Charles Askins once wrote that the flared grip shape of double action revolvers was to help retention in a close fight not to make a better shooting grip.

[David Armstrong]

Well I haven't had anyone run a single stack Shield/PPS type handgun in evolutions because there aren't retrofit Sims kits for them.

Running dry usually isn't the issue. The issue generally is either not being able to make a meaningful hit before an entanglement occurs or coming out of one with a non-functioning gun because it went out of battery with hands all over it because someone didn't/couldn't hold their thumb pectoral index.
Sorry if I'm not sure I'm following here, as I've not had the EQC class (no sense in wasting your time:o!) but are you saying the limited capacity of the j-frame is not much of an issue as a defensive firearm in general or only in the specific EQC environment?

[SouthNarc]

Within entanglement or about a step out, I don't think capacity is the issue compared to an out of battery gun. At least that's what I thought the OP was asking about and what I was speaking to.

I didn't mean to infer that I think capacity is not "generally" important if that's what came across.

[Jay Cunningham]

After going through ECQC I think a J Frame AIWB (or to a lesser extent front pocket) would be valuable in a clinch. Certainly more desirable IMO than a very small semi-auto.

As Craig described, it was pretty clear that the Sim guns malf with hands all over them and I have no doubt real semi-autos would too.

[Chuck Haggard]

Locally we had a very real case where a home invasion involving a little old man and a serious bad guy in a FUT was solved with a model 36 square butt and the application of five rounds of 158gr RNL.

Knowing the circumstances I am utterly convinced (noting that some of this went sideways due to mindset and tactics) that said little old man would not have prevailed if he had a pistol or a longer barreled revolver.

BTW, an empty model 36 makes a poor sap. Just in case you were wondering.

[SLG]

There's an often overlooked aspect to the entangled revolver fight. I have no first hand experience or info on this, so please do your own research, but Massad Ayoob and others wrote years ago about revolvers failing to function after the first shot in a contact situation. Flesh would blow back into the cylinder and prevent it from revolving for the next shot. I can't speak for Southnarc, but I doubt he advocates pressing the revolver into the adversary. However, if you are thinking about that as an advantage for the revolver, I would look into it a bit further. Apparently, there were enough guys carrying revolvers for a really long time, and they even got into fights with them. There might be some good info out there that the current crop of fighters, who mostly don't know what a revolver is, might not have learned. Then again, if I'm wrong, someone please show me some good data to refute this.

[Chuck Haggard]

While the blow back issue can happen I think it is more theory than practice, and depends on what gun and what ammo.

IIRC Mas tested that with a .357mag on store bought meat. I strongly believe that clothing and skin would change the outcome quite a bit. Also, some very common loads such as a wadcutter .38 or a .22lr wouldn't be an issue no matter what, not enough blow in the blowback to cause a problem.

In the FUT I noted above the gun was a 2" model 36, firing standard velocity 158gr RNL, and the bad guy was wearing Carhart coveralls since it was winter in KS and cold as hell. There was zero blowback even though three of the five shots were in contact.

If you can find the video watch the case from "The Ultimate Survivors" where the copper had his female partner killed in a FUT/gun grab and he had to make mulitple contact shots on the bad guy to get him shut down. Mas also did a write-up on that incident for his American Handgunner article series.

[Sparks2112]

...In the FUT I noted above...

Skip to the end, also ignore me making an ass out of myself, Chuck talks about the above scenario in the last segment I want to say. Ballistic Radio Episode 3 (http://ballisticradio.com/2013/03/26/podcast-ballistic-radio-episode-3-march-24-2013/).

[David Armstrong]

Within entanglement or about a step out, I don't think capacity is the issue compared to an out of battery gun. At least that's what I thought the OP was asking about and what I was speaking to.

I didn't mean to infer that I think capacity is not "generally" important if that's what came across.
Thanks, that clears it up. As I said, not having taken the course I'm not necessarily clear on some of the doctrine.

[SouthNarc]

I can't speak for Southnarc, but I doubt he advocates pressing the revolver into the adversary.

You can here dude, and I definitely don't teach that. I see more often than not, that "sticking" the guy with the muzzle usually creates a retention problem, regardless of whether it's an auto or revolver.

Now....

That being said, Ed Lovette did a small sampling of entangled revolver shootings....I can't remember the number...but he found every single one to be a one shot fatality. I'll try and chase down exactly what he found, but I remember he and I discusssing it when the two of us and Tom taught a combined skills class long ago.

[SouthNarc]

Thanks, that clears it up. As I said, not having taken the course I'm not necessarily clear on some of the doctrine.

It's nothing complex at all once guys get in there and do it. It's kinda' self explanatory and everyone figures out real fast what consistently works (training environment mind you) and what doesn't. I just give them a road map with a couple of highlighted turns.

[Jay Cunningham]

That being said, Ed Lovette did a small sampling of entangled revovler shootings....I can't remember the number...but he found every single one to be a one shot fatality. I'll try and chase down exactly what he found, but I remember he and I discusssing it when the two of us and Tom taught a combined skills class long ago.

Interdasting.

[JJN]

Another way to wrap your head around what Craig is saying, is that in an entangled shooting, the functional capacity of a J-frame may well exceed that of a service pistol. Not so much if you do everything he teaches, but for the non ECQC t-rex, a J-frame is much more forgiving.
Jon

[SouthNarc]

That's an even better way of saying it JJN!

[TGS]

I just give them a road map with a couple of highlighted turns.

By highlighted turns, he means punches to the ball-sack and lung-bursting entanglements.

[Sparks2112]

You can here dude, and I definitely don't teach that. I see more often than not, that "sticking" the guy with the muzzle usually creates a retention problem, regardless of whether it's an auto or revolver.

Now....

That being said, Ed Lovette did a small sampling of entangled revolver shootings....I can't remember the number...but he found every single one to be a one shot fatality. I'll try and chase down exactly what he found, but I remember he and I discusssing it when the two of us and Tom taught a combined skills class long ago.

I'd be VERY interested to see that if you come across it.

[NickA]

By highlighted turns, he means punches to the ball-sack and lung-bursting entanglements.

Well said. Like a GPS with an attitude problem. And fists.

It's discussions like this that keep me from getting rid of my 642. Some day I need to get serious about getting at least semi-competent with it.

[Jay Cunningham]

Dark Star Gear makes a killer AIWB for a J Frame.

[Chuck Haggard]

In that one shooting I noted the copper got at least one hard contact shot in through the ribs, the bad guy then picked the officer up and threw him across the room. It took a reload and several more rounds, including a contact head shot that also didn't finish the job, to shut the bad guy down.

The muzzle blast getting funnelled into the entrance wound is extremely damaging, but very few things you can fire without a crew are 100%.


I'd bet it's a pretty reliable way to put a stop to a fight though.

[Dropkick]

Another Pro for J Frames at ECQC is when you have a retention problem, you'll be shot in the wang with your own gun considerably less.

[Sparks2112]

Another Pro for J Frames at ECQC is when you have a retention problem, you'll be shot in the wang with your own gun considerably less.

So does everyone turn into a dick shooter at ECQC? Because I'm noticing a trend...

[orionz06]

So does everyone turn into a dick shooter at ECQC? Because I'm noticing a trend...

Did you think it was a game?

[JDM]

So does everyone turn into a dick shooter at ECQC? Because I'm noticing a trend...

The first sims round I caught all weekend was directly in the gentlemen's sausage.

[Chuck Haggard]

I have been itching to get to an ECQC class for years. I obviously need one of these before I attend.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2011/08/02/military-unveils-latest-body-armor-ballistic-groin-protection/

[LOKNLOD]

I have been itching to get to an ECQC class for years. I obviously need one of these before I attend.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2011/08/02/military-unveils-latest-body-armor-ballistic-groin-protection/

T'ain't enough coverage for ECQC...

[Chuck Haggard]

No, I think it covers the taint as well.

[JAD]

No, I think it covers the taint as well.
http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/joker.gif

[Sparks2112]

Did you think it was a game?

Hah, I'll shoot someone anywhere I can, I just find it interesting that that is where shots so commonly land. Any part of the FUT encourage this for some reason?

[MGW]

I have been itching to get to an ECQC class for years. I obviously need one of these before I attend.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2011/08/02/military-unveils-latest-body-armor-ballistic-groin-protection/

The Army's version of depends.:confused:

How the hell am supposed to piss in a bottle with that thing on?

[Cecil Burch]

Hah, I'll shoot someone anywhere I can, I just find it interesting that that is where shots so commonly land. Any part of the FUT encourage this for some reason?

I hesitate to speak since I am not Craig and I have not seen nearly the amount of evos he has, but IME, sometimes it is a function of shooting from retention (the #2). With the downward angle it is already heading in that direction.

Other times it is still shooting form the #2, but this time from the ground up, and the pelvis is still in the way and the round traveling upwards runs into man-parts.

[LOKNLOD]

I hesitate to speak since I am not Craig and I have not seen nearly the amount of evos he has, but IME, sometimes it is a function of shooting from retention (the #2). With the downward angle it is already heading in that direction.

Other times it is still shooting form the #2, but this time from the ground up, and the pelvis is still in the way and the round traveling upwards runs into man-parts.

I'm probably using the terminology incorrectly, but in our class I saw it happen during gun struggles when the person on top took the gun away from a defender on bottom fending with the legs, exposing the taintular area as a prime target. A good example of how it happens is right at the end of the video from our class (Mar '12 OK):
(I can't seem to embed a clip staged to the right moment, so here it is at 4:18: LINK TO YOUTUBE (http://youtu.be/1eM9NygM2oM?t=4m18s))

[phil_in_cs]

After going through ECQC I think a J Frame AIWB (or to a lesser extent front pocket) would be valuable in a clinch. .

So is a clinch pick, and it is smaller, lighter, easier to get to, and easier to maneuver.


So does everyone turn into a dick shooter at ECQC? Because I'm noticing a trend...

Not all of us are dick shooters. Some of us are taint stabbers instead.

[Chuck Haggard]

Having had quite a few blood exposures of dirtbag blood, and the medical issues that can come with that, and having been to court a metrickittenton on various cases, I would much rather, as a general rule, blast someone with my J frame than hook then with a knife given the choice ahead of time to pick one or the other.

Gun shot wounds tend, I say again tend, to bleed less than large knife wounds. Gutting bad guys, as justified as it may be, is also fraught with much more baggage than shooting bad guys, in both real court and the court of public opinion.

Just a couple of thoughts on the matter.


That sayin, I do have knives on me, and the training and will to use them.

[Sparks2112]

Having had quite a few blood exposures of dirtbag blood, and the medical issues that can come with that, and having been to court a metrickittenton on various cases, I would much rather, as a general rule, blast someone with my J frame than hook then with a knife given the choice ahead of time to pick one or the other.

Gun shot wounds tend, I say again tend, to bleed less than large knife wounds. Gutting bad guys, as justified as it may be, is also fraught with much more baggage than shooting bad guys, in both real court and the court of public opinion.

Just a couple of thoughts on the matter.


That sayin, I do have knives on me, and the training and will to use them.

Nothing says "Excuse me Sir, please stop resisting" quite like disembowelment though, you have to admit.

[Chuck Haggard]

Nothing says "Excuse me Sir, please stop resisting" quite like disembowelment though, you have to admit.

I have met more than one drunk who was opened up big time vie knife during a bar fight, and they were trying to stuff their own guts back into the gut holder at the time. If they had wanted to fight they could have, and that would have been a whole 'nother problem in a grapple.

[JDM]

Having had quite a few blood exposures of dirtbag blood, and the medical issues that can come with that, and having been to court a metrickittenton on various cases, I would much rather, as a general rule, blast someone with my J frame than hook then with a knife given the choice ahead of time to pick one or the other.

Gun shot wounds tend, I say again tend, to bleed less than large knife wounds. Gutting bad guys, as justified as it may be, is also fraught with much more baggage than shooting bad guys, in both real court and the court of public opinion.

Just a couple of thoughts on the matter.


That sayin, I do have knives on me, and the training and will to use them.

Excellent perspective. Thank you.

[Cecil Burch]

I would much rather, as a general rule, blast someone with my J frame than hook then with a knife given the choice ahead of time to pick one or the other.
.


But it really shouldn't be a case of one or the other. The prime use for each is different. The blade in a FUT is best when you have little room to move the hand and you are unable to twist around to line a barrel up with the target. In that situation, you can lock the wrist and use the elbow to help pump the blade. If you have maneuvered to obtain a little more space that allows the hand to adjust and align a pistol, that is probably a better choice.

My choice of carry is based on trying to cover each context that would arise the best I possibly can.

[Chuck Haggard]

But it really shouldn't be a case of one or the other. The prime use for each is different. The blade in a FUT is best when you have little room to move the hand and you are unable to twist around to line a barrel up with the target. In that situation, you can lock the wrist and use the elbow to help pump the blade. If you have maneuvered to obtain a little more space that allows the hand to adjust and align a pistol, that is probably a better choice.

My choice of carry is based on trying to cover each context that would arise the best I possibly can.

I get all that, seriously, just sayin, I rather shoot a bad guy than cut them, given any choice in the matter.

[Andy in NH]

I was ground fighting with a training partner one time at ECQC where he had me tied up in side control.

While fending off punches and elbows, I couldn't access the blue gun on my hip, but very easily reached the blue gun (J-frame) on my ankle.

After getting it out, I placed the muzzle in his ribs and said, "BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG."

He didn't quite seem to acknowledge what was happening, so I started to beat him in the head / neck area with it as an impact weapon until the drill ended.

I never had the chance to use the J-frame in the 1-on-1 or 2-on-1 evos.

I always though this video had some value. "Tim" doesn't shoot from the #2, but IMO does a good job at IFWA with his "revolver".

(If you are impatient skip to the 1:00 minute mark):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9iMyWpP-mg&list=FLmdszlVjvt8lhTd58L-T6cA&index=15

[TCinVA]

I get all that, seriously, just sayin, I rather shoot a bad guy than cut them, given any choice in the matter.

Agreed. For whatever reason lots in polite society (and even law enforcement society) wrinkle their noses at the notion of cutting somebody.

Anyone remember the scene in Dirty Harry where Callahan tapes a switchblade to his ankle? His superior says "It's a shame that a police officer should know how to use a weapon like that." A movie quote, but I've encountered similar sentiment among real police officers...especially those who haven't really been through rigorous DT and weapon retention training.

Gunshot wounds, even fatal ones, often look less shocking than work with a knife. The wounds from a good doing in with a sharp blade can leave huge hunks of flesh hanging off somebody creating a significant negative emotional reaction just to the sight of it.

So given my 'druthers, I'd 'druther shoot somebody than use the Ban Tang I have on order...but everybody here knows that we use a weapon like the BTCP because it's the only option on the table.

[Sparks2112]

So given my 'druthers, I'd 'druther shoot somebody than use the Ban Tang I have on order...but everybody here knows that we use a weapon like the BTCP because it's the only option on the table.

Is it odd that I was raised to consider a knife to be an offensive weapon?

[LOKNLOD]

Is it odd that I was raised to consider a knife to be an offensive weapon?

I don't think so, but my dad taught that the fork and spoon were offensive weapons as well...

[Chuck Haggard]

I was raised by a dad who killed people with an E-tool in Korea, so growing up with an idea of what looks right hasn't been a problem. The points noted by TC are valid though.

[rob_s]

Dark Star Gear makes a killer AIWB for a J Frame.

Very much agree.

[Sparks2112]

I was raised by a dad who killed people with an E-tool in Korea, so growing up with an idea of what looks right hasn't been a problem. The points noted by TC are valid though.

Our dads sound similar, just a different war. I remember him sharpening a shovel when I was a kid and me asking him about it. "Comes in handy sometimes."

[David Armstrong]

May have been common for the older guys. My Dad did the same, sharpened one side of an E-tool. I remember the comment when someone asked him about it: "You never know when you might need to cut down a tree or cut off an arm." For years I thought he was making a joke; I was wrong.

[Sparks2112]

May have been common for the older guys. My Dad did the same, sharpened one side of an E-tool. I remember the comment when someone asked him about it: "You never know when you might need to cut down a tree or cut off an arm." For years I thought he was making a joke; I was wrong.

Yeah, dad has a Tokarev model that doesn't technically exist that he won in a game of e-tool whack-a-commie. Cool gun.

[41magfan]

Is it odd that I was raised to consider a knife to be an offensive weapon?

Perhaps the reason you were raised that way is because 99.99% of the time, knives ARE offensive weapons used by criminals doing criminal things. That’s the reality and anyone’s rationale for ignoring it is pretty foolish IMO and wishing it were not so doesn’t change a thing.

I’ll defend myself if necessary with whatever I have at hand, but I have no illusions of the pitfalls associated with the stigma associated with the knife as a choice in defensive weaponry. The real world is my litmus test for that subjective opinion, but that's just me.

Anyone care to argue that Zimmerman’s case would have been better or worse had he used his “tactical folder” or “tactical shiv”?

[TCinVA]

Perhaps the reason you were raised that way is because 99.99% of the time, knives ARE offensive weapons used by criminals doing criminal things. That’s the reality and anyone’s rationale for ignoring it is pretty foolish IMO and wishing it were not so doesn’t change a thing.

I’ll defend myself if necessary with whatever I have at hand, but I have no illusions of the pitfalls associated with the stigma associated with the knife as a choice in defensive weaponry. The real world is my litmus test for that subjective opinion, but that's just me.

Anyone care to argue that Zimmerman’s case would have been better or worse had he used his “tactical folder” or “tactical shiv”?

It's very difficult to "what if" a knife into that situation.

If GZ pulled the knife and opened Trayvon's femoral or brachial in horrific fashion, yeah...could have been uglier. Of course, a corpse is a pretty ugly thing anyway.

If GZ pulled the knife and worked it like a Singer sewing machine in Trayvon's torso, yeah...could have been uglier. Of course, a corpse is a pretty ugly thing anyway.

If GZ pulled the knife and got in a good slash that caused the guy who thought he was going to whup some crazy cracker butt to have the sudden realization that he was trying to beat down the wrong cracker, then Trayvon might still be alive today.

Who knows.

If I had my 'druthers I'd rather use a gun for lots of reasons, one of them being the stigma that exists around knives.

That being said, the stigma is changing as more and more police officers are integrating knives into their "keep a bad guy off my gun" plans of action. Just like any other piece of equipment, understanding why you have it, what it's good for, and how to intelligently defend the choice of it in court would probably be a sensible move.

I'm not a lawyer or expert on UOF, so I'll shutup and let the guys who are field it from there.

[41magfan]

That being said, the stigma is changing as more and more police officers are integrating knives into their "keep a bad guy off my gun" plans of action. Just like any other piece of equipment, understanding why you have it, what it's good for, and how to intelligently defend the choice of it in court would probably be a sensible move.

I'm not a lawyer or expert on UOF, so I'll shutup and let the guys who are field it from there.

That’s true, and it’s worth noting that paradigm was birthed by the advent of the Spyderco folder a long time ago. But is hasn’t altered the stigma of knife use in general and certainly not for civilians. And while there have been a handful of successful defensive uses by LEO’s, there’s been a greater number of COPS who were forced to ramp things up because they were relieved of their own knives. A number have been injured with their own knives, as well.

As with all things, the knife a defensive tool must be discussed in some realistic context or relevance. I’m just a bit entertained by all the “knife fighting” talk that does not jive with anything I’ve ever seen, experienced, read about or observed in the world in which I live.

I love knives BTW, second only to my guns.

[Rich]

That’s true, and it’s worth noting that paradigm was birthed by the advent of the Spyderco folder a long time ago. But is hasn’t altered the stigma of knife use in general and certainly not for civilians. And while there have been a handful of successful defensive uses by LEO’s, there’s been a greater number of COPS who were forced to ramp things up because they were relieved of their own knives. A number have been injured with their own knives, as well.

As with all things, the knife a defensive tool must be discussed in some realistic context or relevance. I’m just a bit entertained by all the “knife fighting” talk that does not jive with anything I’ve ever seen, experienced, read about or observed in the world in which I live.

I love knives BTW, second only to my guns.

Stigma of the knife! excellent.

I love knives as well

I remember back in high school some of us carried our buck 110 on our belts.
wasn't a problem in the 80`s in IND.

[DanH]

Stigma of the knife! excellent.

I love knives as well

I remember back in high school some of us carried our buck 110 on our belts.
wasn't a problem in the 80`s in IND.

I carried mine in college in the early 90's, but that was after having some jackass try to mug me on a late night soda run ;p

[LSP972]

That’s true, and it’s worth noting that paradigm was birthed by the advent of the Spyderco folder a long time ago.

Actually, it goes back farther than that. I came on in 1978, and most everybody carried a Buck 110 or 112 folder on their Sam Browne rig in a .45 magazine pouch. And some of those old-timers could get that blade out of the pouch, opened, and into action damn quickly...

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[JodyH]

Actually, it goes back farther than that. I came on in 1978, and most everybody carried a Buck 110 or 112 folder on their Sam Browne rig in a .45 magazine pouch. And some of those old-timers could get that blade out of the pouch, opened, and into action damn quickly...
I grew up around a lot of old Mexican cowboys and farm hands.
They all carried Buck 110 folders and they were all EXTREMELY fast at getting them out, and quick to cut someone with them too.
The "biker flip, aka:biker pinch" was usually the preferred deployment method.

[LSP972]

The "biker flip, aka:biker pinch" was usually the preferred deployment method.

Yup. The knife was carried in the pouch hinge-up, to facilitate getting a thumb/forefinger grip on the spine of blade as the knife was clearing the pouch.

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