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EVP
05-09-2011, 04:41 PM
I have done some digging and searching on this forum and M4C regarding lasers for CCW use. Of course a laser is not a replacement for iron sights and one would be wise to incorporate proper training with it.

From what I gather, lasers have their pro's and certain scenarios were it would prove to be an advantage. My question is for those who have used lasers and trained with them. Do you feel the need to run a laser on whatever platform you use for CCW? Have you seen enough advantages in low light training were you will always have a laser on your pistol? Or is it just a additional tool that would be nice to have if working in low light environments?

Thanks

ToddG
05-09-2011, 04:43 PM
As I've been running without a laser for the past two and a half years, I guess my answer has to be no.

Having said that, I genuinely miss the capabilities a laser provides and calmly await the day Crimson Trace develops a really good Lasergrip for the G17 gen4 (or whatever gun I shoot next, as the case may be).

Jay Cunningham
05-09-2011, 04:48 PM
I find Crimson Trace lasers to be so valuable on J Frames and other small snubbies that I couldn't imagine not having one.

That said, with a full size pistol and good aftermarket night sights, I choose not to use a laser on my CCW. Plus I carry a Glock 19 and I don't care for the current laser offerings on those guns.

willowofwisp
05-09-2011, 05:23 PM
I think it really depends on the gun you are carrying, I carry a glock 19 with a trijicon RMR and I find the laser and RMR wouldn't work too well together, and I am not a fan of how the crimson trace grips fit/feel on glocks, with that said If I carried an s&w m&p 9 or 9c I would have the crimson trace unit on them.

JodyH
05-09-2011, 05:28 PM
I've been using a Viridian C5L laser/light combination on my P2000 and as soon as my AIWB Archangel holster arrives I'll be trying it out CCW.
With the C5L being a compact laser/light combination I see no reason not to have one on my gun.
I was on the fence about lasers until I really started using one under low light and from odd shooting positions. Now I can't imagine not having one on my house gun.
I plan on running one for CCW when I'm out of town and only have one gun or for those times I'm positive I'll be out and about under low light conditions.

turbolag23
05-10-2011, 08:07 AM
I find Crimson Trace lasers to be so valuable on J Frames and other small snubbies that I couldn't imagine not having one.

That said, with a full size pistol and good aftermarket night sights, I choose not to use a laser on my CCW. Plus I carry a Glock 19 and I don't care for the current laser offerings on those guns.

I agree, i run night sights on my glocks and CT grips on my j frame.

VolGrad
05-10-2011, 09:57 AM
I see the value in Crimson Trace grips but like others don't care for the offerings for GLOCK.

IMO the value of lasers is in low/no light and when shooting from awkward positions, with an injury, etc. I recall watching a demo on one of Pincus's videos or on his TV program showing this. It was very enlightening.

Now, having said that ..... in normal light I find the laser distracting as hell. I was in a 2-day HACK pistol course last weekend and the guy on the line next to me was using CTs on his pistol. It drove me nuts watching the dot dance around on the target. I personally couldn't work like that.

JodyH
05-10-2011, 10:32 AM
Now, having said that ..... in normal light I find the laser distracting as hell. I was in a 2-day HACK pistol course last weekend and the guy on the line next to me was using CTs on his pistol. It drove me nuts watching the dot dance around on the target. I personally couldn't work like that.
That's why I like the switched lasers. I like the option of having a laser, but I don't want it on every time I grip the gun.


double-Tapatalk

EVP
05-10-2011, 09:23 PM
I am running a Hk45c, so it seems Viridian is the only option that I know of. It seems that lasers work well for smaller pistols. I think that for my needs that I can do without a laser. I just dont see myself in low/no light conditions often were night sights and white light would not cover it. Although I do see the advantages of a laser and will pick one up later and train with it. It seems like it would be a nice addition to be able to employ.

JodyH
05-10-2011, 09:36 PM
If you actually have to shoot under low light conditions, the laser/light combo is exponentially better than any flashlight technique.
I was able to put 13 out of 13 rounds into the head of an IDPA target at 25 yards with <1sec. splits under extreme low light conditions (rural area, moonless night).
There is no way I could have done as well with just a weaponlight or a flashlight.
I know this because I tried, repeatedly.
The light/laser combination flat out dominated the low light shooting session in speed and accuracy.
After that range session I bought another Viridian C5L for my wife's night stand gun.

YVK
05-11-2011, 12:07 AM
In short, I only care for CT grips, and out of those, I don't care for their Glock options, and their HK option is not relevant to me (and I also don't care for it). My 1911s have it, and I hope CT makes something grip-activated for P30.

DannyZRC
05-11-2011, 12:42 AM
If you actually have to shoot under low light conditions, the laser/light combo is exponentially better than any flashlight technique.
I was able to put 13 out of 13 rounds into the head of an IDPA target at 25 yards with <1sec. splits under extreme low light conditions (rural area, moonless night).
There is no way I could have done as well with just a weaponlight or a flashlight.
I know this because I tried, repeatedly.
The light/laser combination flat out dominated the low light shooting session in speed and accuracy.
After that range session I bought another Viridian C5L for my wife's night stand gun.

What about at closer distances? 25yds is quite far.

I'm curious about the effectiveness of just a weapon mounted light as an aiming guide, have you experimented in that area?

NGCSUGrad09
05-11-2011, 08:15 AM
They certainly help for little guns and low light when properly used.

The key is proper usage. I've seen too many people think the laser is a substitute for fundamentals and fail with it.

For the Glock users, anyone try the LG 436? My brother has been running one and likes it. I've yet to break down and get one, but I may have to liberate it from him and try it for a while. It seems like it would be the ticket for a laser on a Glock if you're not running a light. All of the other CTC designs either make the gun too fat for my hands or have wandering zero issues.

SouthNarc
05-11-2011, 08:28 AM
From running the Armed Movement in Structures (AMIS) coursework I can tell you that what I see during the low light portion is that lasers and WMLs offer a decisive advantage in a low-light structure gunfight, when the technology is understood and used appropriately. My friend Claude Werner, who was the chief instructor at the Rogers Shooting school for 5+ years audited my coursework this year for peer review and watched several of the final FoF evolutions. His remark was that a laser allowed an average to better than average shooter the ability to make hits on partially exposed targets that he would have had a hard time making on a good day. That coming from an orthodox Mod-Iso/sighted fire instructor at his level tells me something as to the value of lasers.

I can't imagine not having one on a housegun.

YVK
05-11-2011, 08:42 AM
All of the other CTC designs either make the gun too fat for my hands or have wandering zero issues.

Did CT help you at all with zero issues? I've ran their grips since 2006, multiple units. I had one die after 4 years of use, but never had issues with zero. All of them were mounted on 45 ACP 1911s, with attendant recoil and concussion.

About a week ago, during low-light portion of pistol class, I had to turn my off. Part of it was to practice without it since not all my pistols have them; part of it was that it was making things so easy that I didn't feel challenged.

JodyH
05-11-2011, 12:30 PM
What about at closer distances? 25yds is quite far.

I'm curious about the effectiveness of just a weapon mounted light as an aiming guide, have you experimented in that area?
"See what you need to see to make the shot'.
This applies to lights and lasers as well as sights.

double-Tapatalk

JodyH
05-11-2011, 12:35 PM
I can't imagine not having one on a housegun.

Ditto

double-Tapatalk

TCinVA
05-12-2011, 07:55 AM
What about at closer distances? 25yds is quite far.

I'm curious about the effectiveness of just a weapon mounted light as an aiming guide, have you experimented in that area?

Attempting to use the WML as an aiming reference rarely works out well. It would only be useful as an aiming point at the sort of ranges where you're trying to shoot someone who is literally on top of you.

As for lasers themselves...like SouthNarc said: You can make shots with a laser that you couldn't make with any other sighting method. Once you figure them out they are much faster and much easier to use than traditional sights. I can shoot faster and with greater accuracy using a laser in low light than I can with irons in bright light.

seabiscuit
05-12-2011, 11:24 AM
Lasers can help tell you where your POI is wandering over the target, and identify flinches.

One thing to keep in mind - as soon as the gunsmoke hits the air, the laser can be traced directly back to you. If there's one assailant and there's already a hole in his chest before the smoke hits the air, not an issue. But if there's more than one, or if you miss, it might be an issue.

Josh Runkle
05-13-2011, 10:22 AM
I have done some digging and searching on this forum and M4C regarding lasers for CCW use. Of course a laser is not a replacement for iron sights and one would be wise to incorporate proper training with it.

From what I gather, lasers have their pro's and certain scenarios were it would prove to be an advantage. My question is for those who have used lasers and trained with them. Do you feel the need to run a laser on whatever platform you use for CCW? Have you seen enough advantages in low light training were you will always have a laser on your pistol? Or is it just a additional tool that would be nice to have if working in low light environments?

Thanks

The only scenarios I would use a laser in are times when it is impossible to get to full extension to get a sight picture. If you're arm/head is trapped, or if you're in a severely confined space like a closet or a cave. Though I don't place much value on the practice of unsighted point shooting, I still feel confident in my ability to get hits without a laser in this arm/head trapped, can't make a full press out scenario.

Personally that narrows it down to spelunking, and as I do very little of that, I see no need for a laser.

There might be use for one on a long-gun in a maritime setting, doing DMR work from a helicopter while another team is inserting, or something similar, purely as an intimidation factor (as the laser will be off with high-angle shooting), but, personally, I never take the stance of posturing being an acceptable tactic.

ToddG
05-13-2011, 01:08 PM
If you've never done FOF and search/clear stuff with a laser, you may not have the whole picture.

JodyH
05-13-2011, 01:28 PM
One thing I really like about a modern laser/light combo (C5L) is I can utilize a strobing white light with no accuracy degradation due to the sharply focused laser.
Great stuff.

double-Tapatalk

GJM
05-14-2011, 05:31 AM
Jody, what is the amount of mechanical offset on this laser? I spent some time messing with an X400, and basically found it useless because of the amount of mechanical offset, and the compromises in picking a zero point and what that meant to trajectory. I still don't get why Surefire put the laser below the light?

Looking at the laser options, without regard to what pistol they go on, is the consensus that the CT grips on the M&P are the "best" laser product now?

JodyH
05-14-2011, 08:09 AM
With my H&K P2000 and Viridian C5L the laser is approx. 1.5" offset from the center of the bore.
I've found that a 25' zero works perfectly from 5-25 yards.
All shots will be on a 1.5" target dot from 1 yard out to around 15 yards. After that they get progressively lower, but remember that the laser dot gets bigger as the distance increases so even at 25 yards the bullet impacts within the dot (the dot is around 3" diameter at 25 yards). Head shots at 25 yards on an IDPA target are still a matter of placing the dot on the head and making a good trigger press.

Wheeler
05-15-2011, 08:20 AM
From running the Armed Movement in Structures (AMIS) coursework I can tell you that what I see during the low light portion is that lasers and WMLs offer a decisive advantage in a low-light structure gunfight, when the technology is understood and used appropriately. My friend Claude Werner, who was the chief instructor at the Rogers Shooting school for 5+ years audited my coursework this year for peer review and watched several of the final FoF evolutions. His remark was that a laser allowed an average to better than average shooter the ability to make hits on partially exposed targets that he would have had a hard time making on a good day. That coming from an orthodox Mod-Iso/sighted fire instructor at his level tells me something as to the value of lasers.

I can't imagine not having one on a housegun.

To further validate Claude's assesment of lasers, I watched him shoot several stages in an IDPA match, first without and then with a laser with a J-frame. Accuracy was better and his times were much better.

Another advantage of a laser is an ability to provide aimed fire without a sight picture. I can see several advantages to this ie. having been knocked down and unable to get a full or partial pressout for starters.