Does recent testing data on 10mm loads exist?

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Was sort of thinking about picking up a Delta Elite for no good reason...this got me to thinking about 10mm (which I like for various reasons, also mostly dumb ones).


Is there ANY quality data on any 10mm defensive loads? Any JHP bullets that work best on the high end of .40 velocities?

Has anybody made an effort to quantify the bow shock effect of a 10mm tearing a hole through time/space? Or is it more one of those things where once we figured out there isn't an advantage to the big pistol calibres other than intermediate barrier penetration and getting you laid a lot, there wasn't really much of a point in testing it further?

[Suvorov]

I'd be interested as well as a Smith 1006 is my backcountry gun. I would assume however that the ten has pretty much been forgotten by the mainstream makers of SD rounds.

[Chuck Haggard]

I'm not Doc, but he does let me call him and bend his ear quite a bit.....

From Doc's data, and talking to a friend who is an ER trauma surgeon, it appears that unless you are driving a solid bullet fast for max penetration that the 10mm doesn't do anything the .40 or .45 can't do. It isn't fast enough to get rifle level of wounding. My trauma doc friend tells me that in some tissues, and using a hot .357mag or 10mm JHP load, he can see slight tearing but he isn't convinced that it contributes anything to greater wounding or "stopping power"

[GJM]

Unfortunately, the load development that has given us the HST and Ranger T/Bonded loads in 9, .40 and .45 hasn't happened in 10mm. Still, I carried a 10 mm for a number of years in a woods setting, using FMJ bullets. Unfortunately, the heavier and faster the 10mm load, the further from the reliability envelope you get. When you have to choose between reliability and penetration, it is easy to know which you would choose. After a lot of discussion, I decided to start carrying a .40 with hard cast, for my woods gun application. Right now, that is a Glock 22 with a KKM barrel and Double Tap 200 grain hard cast at 1,140 (as I recall) fps. They have run reliably, and I think I have better penetration than from a FMJ in 10. Since my primary is a Glock 17, my holsters and gear all work, and I have transfer from all my G17 shooting.

Darn shame, as I have always liked the 10mm, but they gather dust now.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

That is my rough understanding as well...

What I was really wondering is if there are .40 bullets which are likely to perform at their best when driven in to the upper end of .40 velocities. Some bullets would probably end up with petals folded flat, making the performance worse; I'm really curious to know if there is a particular projectile which maximizes the characteristics of the 10mm (other than living on a boat and not having to own socks).

I.E. if you wanted a non-.45 1911, and you thought 10mm worked well in the 1911 platform so that's what you bought, how could you ensure you were getting the best terminal performance out of your ammo?



It's kind of an idle question, I know. But I feel sufficiently knowledgeable to select ammo for all my guns other than my 10mm, unless, exactly as you say, my goal is max penetration. And sooner or later, I'll probably own a 1911 in 10mm as well, thus doubling my idle curiosity on what would work best.

[1slow]

I wonder if 9x25 Dillon (10mm necked to 9mm) would gain you any rifle like tearing? I've seen claimed 1700+ fps velocities with 125gr bullet. Probably would need a copper JHP to stay together.

[gringop]

The info that I learned was that you needed 2700 fps or higher to get rifle velocity wounding effects. I don't know know If I can back that up with published data but that is my recollection from an Insights First Aid class.

I'll look for data when I get home.


Gringop

[Chuck Haggard]

Depends on bullet mass, size, shape, expansion and velocity.

2000fps is roughly where that starts, however some slower loads can show significant tissue stretch, 12 gauge slugs as an example.

[ST911]

After a lot of discussion, I decided to start carrying a .40 with hard cast, for my woods gun application. Right now, that is a Glock 22 with a KKM barrel and Double Tap 200 grain hard cast at 1,140 (as I recall) fps.

200grs at 1140 would be quite a handful. Any idea what you're pushing for pressures? Are you running the OEM RSA?

[DanH]

I wonder if the Hornady XTP would be a tough enough bullet to perform at the kind of velocities you are talking about? Doc's charts show a 300gr XTP at 1339 fps out of a 16" barrel getting lots of penetration and good expansion. How fast would a 10mm at say 200 or 180gr be moving?

[GJM]

200grs at 1140 would be quite a handful. Any idea what you're pushing for pressures? Are you running the OEM RSA?

Gen 4 with OEM RSA. No idea on pressure, but the load doesn't feel much stiffer than 180 HST or Ranger Bonded. I am using a KKM barrel. Just went back and checked, and the listed velocity is 1,106 fps out of a G22, although I haven't choreographed it.

The Garrett Cartridges Defender .44 magnum load for the 4 inch Scandium 329 is listed at 300 something grains of hard cast at 1,020 fps, so even if this load is in the same velocity I believe it will penetrate a bear's skull.

[Chuck Haggard]

Doesn't a cast bullet crank up the pressure less than a FMJ of the same weight? Just wondering if that is where they got the extra velocity from out of that load.

[GJM]

Doesn't a cast bullet crank up the pressure less than a FMJ of the same weight? Just wondering if that is where they got the extra velocity from out of that load.

I had that thought, but wasn't sure the source. I did a quick search, and couldn't find anything and was hoping someone would chime in.

Irrespective of the pressure, I believe an equal velocity, proper hard cast load will way out penetrate a jacketed load. So rather than try to push a jacketed bullet faster and faster thru a 10mm for penetration, which I believe decreases reliability, the hard cast thru a .40 Glock, which I shoot better than the large frame 20/29 seems a good solution. Arguably hard cast thru a 10mm might offer a bit more velocity, but I am not convinced that extra velocity is necessary for penetration.

My wife and I are both carrying a .40 with hard cast in Alaska -- mixed feelings, hope we get some penetration data but not the hard way.

[BLR]

Cast lead, however "hard," does not develop the same peak pressure that jacketed bullets do. Lead is softer, and has a lower CoF against steel and stainless steel than copper.

And 1140fps for a 200g bullet in a 40? Uhhh, that sounds dangerous. That's darn close to the original Norma loading for the 10mm. Out of a 5" bbl.

The 10mm is my favorite round, btw. More often than any other, I've got a WC 10mm with me. For SD, Hornady makes a great 155g load that doesn't penetrate like the 180/200g stuff. The Silvertip is nice too.

[Chuck Haggard]

I have noted what little Double Tap ammo I have seen crono'd is slower than advertised. G, have you tested that .40 load in particular?

I have seen quite a bit of Speer .40 ammo running faster than book, 180gr Gold Dot at 1075fps and 165gr Gold Dot in the 1185 range, but that ammo was beating the crap out of our gen 3 G22s and was unreliable.

[GJM]

I have noted what little Double Tap ammo I have seen crono'd is slower than advertised. G, have you tested that .40 load in particular?

I have seen quite a bit of Speer .40 ammo running faster than book, 180gr Gold Dot at 1075fps and 165gr Gold Dot in the 1185 range, but that ammo was beating the crap out of our gen 3 G22s and was unreliable.

I am not set up to chrono now, but I would be happy to send a few rounds to someone who can test the velocity. Using my wrist chrono, it feels about like 180 HST. I would be happy as long as it is north of 1,000 fps.

I am not a .40 fan -- I just view this load/pistol/barrel as a tool, and shoot it enough to verify reliability and then carry it around critters.

[DocGKR]

The 10 mm Federal 190 gr bonded JHP (XM1003A) is a good load; velocity is typically around 900-925 f/s or so.

[Suvorov]

The 10 mm Federal 190 gr bonded JHP (XM1003A) is a good load; velocity is typically around 900-925 f/s or so.

Would that be your recommendation for 4-legged vermin of the Ursine variety as well a good pig/deer/medium game load :confused:

[DocGKR]

Pigs and Black Bears: Any quality barrier blind service caliber load
Brown Bears: 12 ga with good slug (Brenneke or Fed Deep Pen); .45-70 lever gun with deep penetrating projectile; above .30 caliber rifle (.338 Win Mag, .375 H&H Mag, etc...)

[Nik the Greek]

Pigs and Black Bears: Any quality barrier blind service caliber load
Brown Bears: 12 ga with good slug (Brenneke or Fed Deep Pen); .45-70 lever gun with deep penetrating projectile; above .30 caliber rifle (.338 Win Mag, .375 H&H Mag, etc...)

Even 9mm 124 +p HSTs? Be nice if I didn't have to get a dedicated woods gun for local fauna. Or should I move to 147 for these purposes?

Also, just as a point of curiosity, is the data on service caliber loads vs.bears gathered from law enforcement encounters with these critters?

[Suvorov]

Pigs and Black Bears: Any quality barrier blind service caliber load
Brown Bears: 12 ga with good slug (Brenneke or Fed Deep Pen); .45-70 lever gun with deep penetrating projectile; above .30 caliber rifle (.338 Win Mag, .375 H&H Mag, etc...)

Thank you Dr. I mostly roam in black bear country but do want to increase the odds when I'm in griz country and don't want to carry a long gun. Still, when I'm camping I consider the most likely threat to come from 2 legged predators which is why I like the idea of the auto pistol.

So in your expert opinion, does a full power 10mm load offer any real advantage over a reduced loading in terms of terminal effectiveness?

Also does the 10mm in general offer any advantage as a backcountry gun over a 40, .45, or even a 9?

The only real world 10mm data I have was on a big Iowa whitetail doe. She ran about 100 yards after a side/lung shot with a 175gr silver tip.

[GJM]

I am not DOC, but if you are talking about neither a psychological nor eventual stop, you need to be able to penetrate the upper CNS. Traditionally, at pistol velocities, hard cast does that most efficiently. A related problem in semi-auto handguns, if you push loads heavier and faster you may get out of the middle of the reliability envelope.

[DocGKR]

LE and hunters have harvested enough lower 48 state black bears over the years to give a solid idea of what works.

Likewise, folks in Alaska and Canada have had sufficient exposure to large brown bears to realize that no handgun is a good choice for these predators when one is in attack mode. Have some been stopped by pistols? Yes, but a lot of that was luck...

[Symmetry]

I reloaded for 10mm for years, but have completely gotten out of the caliber. There is nothing bad about it, nor outstanding about it in the grand scheme of things either. It punches .40S&W holes, only deeper with stronger loadings. It is harder to shoot quickly than the .45acp, and it makes smaller holes than .45acp. I've found that a good .45acp platform will meet and exceed anything else that the 10mm offers. With modernized designs like the HK45, which was designed from the ground up for the .45acp, its hard to justify using the uncommon 10mm. Standard pressure .45acp loadings work well, but if you want more there are good +P loadings out there and even many platforms that can handle the even stronger .45 Super.

[Chuck Haggard]

That reminds me; my old HK USP Match would run reliably with Triton .45Super rounds. Probably beating the crap out of the gun, muzzle blast was .44 magnum-ish, but kind of fun to shoot and less recoil than a .44mag

I wonder what I coulda done with a 230-250gr hard cast loading in that gun.

[Suvorov]

I reloaded for 10mm for years, but have completely gotten out of the caliber. There is nothing bad about it, nor outstanding about it in the grand scheme of things either. It punches .40S&W holes, only deeper with stronger loadings. It is harder to shoot quickly than the .45acp, and it makes smaller holes than .45acp. I've found that a good .45acp platform will meet and exceed anything else that the 10mm offers. With modernized designs like the HK45, which was designed from the ground up for the .45acp, its hard to justify using the uncommon 10mm. Standard pressure .45acp loadings work well, but if you want more there are good +P loadings out there and even many platforms that can handle the even stronger .45 Super.

This is something that I have been wondering about for a while and in part led to my recent purchase of a USPc 45. Will a .45+P or super offer the same level of critter protection or even hunting effectiveness as a 10mm full power load?

[Symmetry]

This is something that I have been wondering about for a while and in part led to my recent purchase of a USPc 45. Will a .45+P or super offer the same level of critter protection or even hunting effectiveness as a 10mm full power load?

A friend of mine liked to load 250gr hardcast in his 45 Super setup at around 1050fps for bear protection. He used it in a Kimber 1911 as his woods gun with no problems. It would likely be a superior choice versus the best 10mm loads. He also has a H&K MK23 that he has fired close to 10,000rds through of full power 45 Super 230gr at around 1100fps. I'm sure that a USP or HK45 would at least be able to process several thousand rounds of 45 Super with no problems.

[TGS]

A friend of mine liked to load 250gr hardcast in his 45 Super setup at around 1050fps for bear protection. He used it in a Kimber 1911 as his woods gun with no problems. It would likely be a superior choice versus the best 10mm loads. He also has a H&K MK23 that he has fired close to 10,000rds through of full power 45 Super 230gr at around 1100fps. I'm sure that a USP or HK45 would at least be able to process several thousand rounds of 45 Super with no problems.

The USP should be able to shoot 45 Super regularly without problem. That's a seriously robust handgun, more so than the HK45.

[Chuck Haggard]

I just know with the stock RSA in my HKs you could feel the slide hit home HARD during recoil, which was odd feeling for that gun due to how soft the recoil was with regular ammo.

[Rich]

200grs at 1140 would be quite a handful. Any idea what you're pushing for pressures? Are you running the OEM RSA?

My P229 40cal just love the 200gr XTP

But I don't load them up to 1140fps. I have to go look again but I loaded them under 900. But its for accuracy anyway nothing else.

My fasted listed load is around 1065 using a 180gr JHP

maybe if I used lead SWC the velocity would go up a tad.