Is HK the only sure (or at least more sure) bet out there these days? [Archive]

Mark

06-29-2013, 04:16 PM

I've been looking at getting a 9mm so I was looking at either the gen 4 Glock 17 or M&P 9mm. I had originally discounted the P30 due to cost. The more I look around the more issues I hear of. Supposedly the M&P 9mm accuracy issues were fixed and the triggers are better but then I've read of current production guns that still have these issues. I've also read of the gen 4 Glock's that still have reliability (seems like its mostly extraction issues) even though those issues we're also supposed to have been fixed on new production guns. Of course we know that Sigs once solid reputation is somewhat shaky right now. I'm not saying there aren't individual models of all of these guns that are working great but it seems like it's a bit of a roll of the dice right now for out of the box reliability.

The only brand I'm not hearing any negatives about is HK. I'm starting to think there is a reason a P30 costs $900 and maybe it's not a bad reason. My USP 45 has always been great. So instead of a $500 Smith or Glock....looks like I may have to save longer and grab a P30 or USP 9 in LEM. What is going on in the firearms industry? When I started in the late 90's if you picked up a Sig, Beretta (at least in 9mm), HK, or third generation S&W you were almost certainly going to be good to go. How are we down to one manufacturer?

Tamara

06-29-2013, 04:26 PM

I'd say it's probably the surest bet.

That said, there's not much you wouldn't be able to un-kitten for the price difference between that and a Glock, and the difference in price and availability of holsters/magazines/accessories is a pretty vast gulf.

1986s4

06-29-2013, 04:31 PM

An H&K is a good bet. I did get a lemon HK USP .45c a few years ago so anyone can make a mistake. I had a early Gen 4 G17 a few years back. After the first mag it ran great. I just can't seem to shoot Glocks well so out it went. My opinion is that a Glock, M&P, Beretta 92, P-30, Classic SIG is still a safe bet. Based on what I've read add Walther to your list.
Best,
1986s4

Guinnessman

06-29-2013, 05:15 PM

I owned an early model HK P30 and it was overall, a wonderful pistol. The only failures that I encountered were with the "Weaker" 115 grain ammo types. As the recoil spring broke in, the issues went away. I had a total of 2 failures to eject in the two years that I owned the gun, and they occurred during the first 1000 rounds. If I remember correctly, the ammo was the Remington 115 grain UMC.

The gun was sold because it was the standard DA/SA, and I was moving away from DA/SA pistols at the time. I shoot all Glock and M&P now. I would buy any HK LEM model if I was not so invested in Glocks. They are great guns and their quality cannot be beat. The magazines and parts are expensive compared to the Glock/M&P, but if the price does not bother you, then buy away.

Tamara

06-29-2013, 05:41 PM

The magazines and parts are expensive compared to the Glock/M&P, but if the price does not bother you, then buy away.

For me it's not so much price as it is selection and availability. :o

VolGrad

06-29-2013, 06:05 PM

CCT125US

06-29-2013, 06:34 PM

Besides, I can own two of either of these or one of each for the price of a P30. So, economically they make more sense. You can purchase a primary & a backup for about the same price.

And this is a great point, do you go for the gun that will be 99% or two of the same guns that might be 98.5%? It depends on the type of use it will see. For me, in my situation, my method of carry, the P30 is the best for ME right now. I like hammer fired guns such as the V3 model (DA/SA). No one ever told me that DA/SA guns were "hard", so I didn't know any better. And when folks said that they were, I knew their opinion to be invalid. If Glock ever makes a hammer fired gun, I would pick one up........ The thing with Glocks is the resale value, support gear, etc. is good compared to initial purchase price. As far as spare parts, I doubt most gun owners stock spare parts just in case their only gun goes down. So you better hope what you need is available, regardless.

Clusterfrack

06-29-2013, 06:49 PM

I've owned a couple of P30s but they didn't last very long in my safe. I love the ergonomics and I have no doubt the durability/reliability is there. However, I just didn't shoot them as well at speed as I do GLOCKs and M&Ps. Sure, I could have probably over come that with practice but the GLOCKs and M&Ps are just more natural in my hands so that's where I'm at. Besides, I can own two of either of these or one of each for the price of a P30. So, economically they make more sense. You can purchase a primary & a backup for about the same price.

Same here. I have a USP/c that has seen over a decade of hard use with no failures of any kind. But I just don't shoot it as well as I do my Gen 4 Glock 9mm's (which have become my handgun of choice after moving away from 1911s). My times on virtually every drill are slower with the HK. Maybe HK has a slight edge on reliability? But I like that I can carry a baggie of spare parts for my Glocks and diagnose/fix most problems in minutes. (Not that there have been many problems in the ~25k rounds I've got on those guns).

GJM

06-29-2013, 07:39 PM

But I like that I can carry a baggie of spare parts for my Glocks and diagnose/fix most problems in minutes. (Not that there have been many problems in the ~25k rounds I've got on those guns).

A lot of the summer, I am in remote Alaska, 100 miles from town, and being able to user maintain the Glock is a BIG deal to me. Here is my support box that travels with me:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/box_zps5f93b4b7.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/box_zps5f93b4b7.jpg.html)

JodyH

06-29-2013, 08:36 PM

My H&K parts box is about the same size. While detail stripping a H&K isn't caveman simple, its not rocket surgery either.

walkin' trails

06-29-2013, 08:55 PM

I think a chunk of the problem with Glock and S&W (and probably some other makes) recently has had a lot to do with the high demand for certain pistols over the past six months, and quality control gets a little frazzled. Prior to the frenzy, Glock got off on the wrong foot with their Gen 4s - probably not testing them as well as they should have before releasing them. The Gen 1-3 Glock 9 mms, from what I've seen have been pretty reliable. I have seen one broken locking block, and several broken trigger pins on the Glock 40s, but my theory is that they had a bad run of MIM parts, and nobody will admit it.

I have limited experience with H&K hand guns, and have only seen a couple USPs with problems over the past 23 years; one had developed a crack on the rear slide rail, and the other just flat wouldn't run and promptly replaced by H&K.

I have/have had a number of Glocks over the years ranging from a Gen 1 17 to a 21SF with a number of personal and issued 9s and 40s in between. My 17, 19, 21, 21SF, and all of the 22s have been rock solid reliable. The only major problems I've had were a broken trigger pin in my 27, and a slide lock spring in my 23. I have an M&P 45 which has been a great shooter and very reliable since I bought it, although a broken striker recently had it grounded for over a month because the factory was backordered on striker assemblies ( I now have a spare assembly on hand). I realize that firearms are mechanical devices, and prone to failure at some point or another like all machines. I carry a BUG.

I will be able to tell hopefully this week if the M&P 9's trigger and accuracy have improved as I am waiting for my new acquisition to be delivered.

hufnagel

06-29-2013, 09:12 PM

Daddy always said, buy the best and you'll never complain about quality.

When I did my due dilligence years ago, HK P30 came up on top for reliability, durability and engineering. Yes, the guns are more expensive. Yes the magazines are expensive. Yes the triggers are "different" and take some training. Yes there are probably some guns you can drive "faster" earlier in their ownership. The one thing that HK pistols do for me at least, is give me 100% confidence they'll go BANG when asked to... regardless of the situation or conditions. The ergonomics are second to none. The fit and finish is flawless. The accuracy is better than I'll probably ever be. I'm a hammer fired lover because I want something I can ride while reholstering.

Oh and I'm a lefty. :cool:

P.S.: there's only one "bad" thing that I forgot to mention... the damn things are addictive. you can't own just one. :D

Tamara

06-30-2013, 07:17 AM

The one thing that HK pistols do for me at least, is give me 100% confidence they'll go BANG when asked to... regardless of the situation or conditions.

Dude, I don't put that kind of faith in an anvil. :p

Corse

06-30-2013, 09:14 AM

The only thing the p30 needs is your preference of sights, no other accessories. Holsters are plentiful mags cost $10 more. Neither the M&P or the glocks up to gen 3 ( no experience with gen 4) are no where near as accurate in my experience.

I got rid of a gen 3 glock 17 with btf/stove pipe issues. M&P issues are well known, may be fixed now, maybe not? So I buy one of these and possibly deal with these issues.

My p30 has literally never malfunctioned, even with the weak 115gr ammo. If you want a gun with no drama or questionable reliability just get the p30 and press.

LSP972

06-30-2013, 09:34 AM

Dude, I don't put that kind of faith in an anvil. :p

Perhaps not, but you've got to put your faith in SOMETHING (hopefully, whatever you choose to tote).

I'm with hufnagel... the overall quality of HKs is leagues above the others. Sure, anything can break... but it would appear that HK pays more attention to detail when building each pistol than the others do. That matters to ME, and I'm willing to pay the extra money for it.

There are many ways to look at this. I just purchased a 9mm Shield, for consideration as a replacement EDC piece because I'm getting old and that HK45C (and its ammunition) is getting heavy at the end of each day. The Shield seems well-engineered and produced, although its typical S&W in that is has a lot more parts than are necessary. The limited firing I did yesterday showed no issues, and the teething problems it had seem to have been dealt with successfully. Of course, many more rounds, drills, etc., remain before I would think of carrying it... but my point here is, it ain't no HK; and if HK made a similar piece of that genre (sub-compact 9mm) I'd pay the higher price without hesitation. {The P2000SK doesn't count; IMO, it isn't in the same zone as the Shield, LC9, PPS, etc. I can hide my P2000 as easily as an SK, and the weight difference is negligible.)

I hope this Shield works out for me. It is actually a quite nice little piece, aside from that dumb manual safety (which is easily by-passed and I will do if I decide to keep the pistol). A lot of thought obviously went into its design.

But it ain't no HK....

.

Mark

06-30-2013, 03:50 PM

The more reading I do and the more I compare it to what I've seen in actual usage, the more I'm convinced that I would ultimately save money and avoid many headaches by just sticking with HK. I can only imagine if I had stuck with my USP 45 (especially after coverting it to light LEM) from the beginning and just used different HK's from here on out. I've decided I'm going to save a little more and grab a USP 9 LEM for duty. I like the USP ergos (I know I'm wired in that sense) and with 124 grain +p HST's I think the 9 will be fine. That and it will fit in my favorite holster (Safariland 6360).

I should put in the obligatory, there are other good guns out there that would serve others perfectly fine but for me I think it's going to be HK exclusively from here on out.

I suppose I've got some pistols to sell (except my favorite 1911, that one will stay).

ubervic

06-30-2013, 05:18 PM

I've owned a couple of P30s but they didn't last very long in my safe. I love the ergonomics and I have no doubt the durability/reliability is there. However, I just didn't shoot them as well at speed as I do GLOCKs and M&Ps. Sure, I could have probably over come that with practice but the GLOCKs and M&Ps are just more natural in my hands so that's where I'm at. Besides, I can own two of either of these or one of each for the price of a P30. So, economically they make more sense. You can purchase a primary & a backup for about the same price.

This right here.

I owned an HK P2000sk, which I shot very well, and then a P30, which I adored for the look and the way if felt in my hand---but I never shot it well.
Guess what? I picked up a used MP9FS, and I shoot it better than any pistol ever, especially after dropping in the Apex DCAEK kit.

TNK

06-30-2013, 10:29 PM

The answer to your question is Yes. Buy the H&K.

BWT

06-30-2013, 10:58 PM

One, No there are defective and problematic HK's and shooting only NATO spec ammo in them NIB for what 500 rounds? Is highly recommended. In fact it's always recommended IIRC.

That being said, they are engineered to survive a squib load, very well and are tested for that, they have a high quality to them, for certain.

That being said, the Internet will make you paranoid about buying anything. Some are legitimate (Hi-Points aren't just as good, I'm sorry they're not) some aren't.

I bought a NIB Gen 4 Glock, now I'm getting married which means I'm retired from shooting regularly for the foreseeable future. (She's worth it, and it's me that's putting us on a budget. Or I'm thoroughly brainwashed.)

But, I bought a Glock 17 Gen 4 with the 32704 ejector and I can tell you Yes ejection can be erratic. Do I care? Well... I did, but with the Non LCI extractor, and White Noise extractor spring, I noticed no difference and changed back to the factory parts.

That being said the gun has never had a failure attributed to itself in about 1,600-2,000 rounds. It's had worn mag spring issues (slide not locking back on empty with specific magazines) and a one-time user induced stoppage. Other then that, we're good. My Arsenal AK throws brass everywhere as well, it also has never had a stoppage.

I'd say you could buy a Glock with about 95% confidence. However, that being said I Don't Care who's name is roll marked on the slide, test that gun before carrying it for Self-Defense. No gun or item on this planet works on it's namesake alone. Glocks also have great service and resell very well if you find a bad one.

GJM

06-30-2013, 11:28 PM

I think all the major platforms are darn reliable. and it gets down top picking the feature set you like. I just put 8,000 rounds thru a new Sig 226R without a single anything. Two new Gen 4 17's over 3,000 rounds each without a single anything. And, here are Todd's numbers from his tests (and I think both the P30 and G17 suffered from some early issues not now representative of the platform):

M&P9: 20,778 MRBS
chance of stoppage firing 35 rounds carried, 0.17%

P30: 7,608 MRBS
chance of stoppage firing 31 rounds carried, 0.41%

HK45: 16,667 MRBS
chance of stoppage firing 21 rounds carried, 0.13%

Glock 17: 3,751 MRBS
chance of stoppage firing 35 rounds carried, 0.93%

SACS/Warren 9mm 1911 as of today: 3,528 MRBS
chance of stoppage firing 31 rounds carried: 0.87%

YVK

06-30-2013, 11:43 PM

Tamara

07-01-2013, 07:20 AM

...the overall quality of HKs is leagues above the others. Sure, anything can break... but it would appear that HK pays more attention to detail when building each pistol than the others do.

HK has control over their supply chain more than most of the competition, since they make most everything in-house* and aren't as reliant on subcontractors for components. That, and they still actually test-fire guns. This used to be the norm in the industry, but price pressures are driving cost-cutting measures that impact quality.

But to hear people talk, their Universal Service Pistol was lovingly assembled in a clean room by a magic German gun gnome who wasn't allowed to apprentice until he sat in the lotus position on the doorstep of the Oberndorf factory for three weeks in a howling German winter. It's a mass-produced service pistol; it wasn't quenched in the blood of a Numidian virgin under a new moon.

Has HK held the line in the QC department where others have slipped? Sure. Thus far. And as long as they can avoid executives who come at them boasting about how they can increase profit margins, thus it will remain**. But don't confuse a P30 with an Heirloom Precision product. There's about as much loving individual attention in that pistol as there is in your iPhone.

*This, in and of itself, isn't a guarantee of quality. I mean, Taurus does this, too.

** Actually, HK has already taken a step in this direction, having gone from, say, machined forgings and roller locking to injection molding and straight blowback, to name a couple of examples. The HK of MP5s and P7s simple could not remain cost-competitive and damn near went under.

DanH

07-01-2013, 07:39 AM

ToddG

07-01-2013, 07:52 AM

... it wasn't quenched in the blood of a Numidian virgin under a new moon.

True enough. I mean, it's not always Numidian...

Odin Bravo One

07-01-2013, 08:53 AM

But to hear people talk, their Universal Service Pistol was lovingly assembled in a clean room by a magic German gun gnome who wasn't allowed to apprentice until he sat in the lotus position on the doorstep of the Oberndorf factory for three weeks in a howling German winter. It's a mass-produced service pistol; it wasn't quenched in the blood of a Numidian virgin under a new moon.

Maybe not.........but it is easier to get into Los Alamos than it was to get into Oberndorf. Took longer to get into the facility than it did to get to the facility.

Then again, those kittens at Los Alamos didn't let me shoot P30 prototypes either. Though, sadly neither facility gave us a parting gift, or a sample pack to take home. They could both take a customer service/marketing lesson from the Bourbon distilleries in KY!

Tamara

07-01-2013, 09:09 AM

I have known some people who were REALLY fond of their iPhones...

A very similar phenomenon at work, IMHO. :)

When you pay more for a good piece of gear, you've got more than just money tied up in it.

TGS

07-01-2013, 10:17 AM

** Actually, HK has already taken a step in this direction,

I'm not sure if this is what you're implying, but I think that was more a measure of the company staying competitive and updating their technology, rather than a Cohen-ish maneuver by HK. I mean, the roller-delayed system with stamped sheet metal receivers was developed by the Germans in their darkest of hours some ~60 years ago because at that time it was the cheapest way to make a gun. At some point, there's going to be new technology which surpasses it that would need to be invested in. Even Jim Schatz holds no reservations in saying that the G36 and HK416 completely smoke the roller-delayed blowbacks in pretty much every category.....cheaper construction wasn't the only benefit. The weapons aren't of any lower quality than they were 40 years ago.

Even in these days of more reliable, cheaper, more accurate weapons compared to roller-delayed blowbacks......they still make the PSG-1. I'm not sure if that's hubris or genuine pride, being that an out of the box SL8-6 is a solid half MOA gun with the right ammo and for 1/5 the price. There must be someone who still buys them, I guess.

Maybe not.........but it is easier to get into Los Alamos than it was to get into Oberndorf. Took longer to get into the facility than it did to get to the facility.

Then again, those kittens at Los Alamos didn't let me shoot P30 prototypes either. Though, sadly neither facility gave us a parting gift, or a sample pack to take home. They could both take a customer service/marketing lesson from the Bourbon distilleries in KY!

Not even a refrigerator magnet that says, "Because you suck, and we hate you" or a free t-shirt? Damn!

LSP972

07-01-2013, 01:30 PM

But don't confuse a P30 with an Heirloom Precision product.

I'm not confused.

I can, however, discern the quality difference between an HK and a VolksPistole (i.e., common garden-variety combat tupperware ;) )

.

Tamara

07-01-2013, 01:47 PM

I can, however, discern the quality difference between an HK and a VolksPistole

Really (http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=42:the-vp70&catid=6:the-pistols&Itemid=5)? :D

Tamara

07-01-2013, 01:56 PM

I'm not sure if this is what you're implying, but I think that was more a measure of the company staying competitive and updating their technology, rather than a Cohen-ish maneuver by HK. I mean, the roller-delayed system with stamped sheet metal receivers was developed by the Germans in their darkest of hours some ~60 years ago because at that time it was the cheapest way to make a gun.

It was the cheapest way to make a gun... at the time. ;)

I was also referring more to the guns that were developed during the BAe years: The UMP and USP, both of which are cheaper to make than the products they replaced. I'm not necessarily saying it was some cheap-out thing at the expense of quality, but the fact remains that it was becoming impossible to sell the old P7/P9S designs at anything like competitive prices and stay afloat, especially from a company that didn't have the ability to absorb any more financial hits after the double whammy of the '89 US commercial import ban and the cancellation of the G11 program.

Duces Tecum

07-01-2013, 05:34 PM

It's a mass-produced service pistol; it wasn't quenched in the blood of a Numidian virgin under a new moon.

Numidian.

I had to look that one up, having no recent experience with either the noun or the referenced adjective. :)

Wikipedia: The name Numidia was first applied by Polybius and other historians during the third century BC to indicate the territory west of Carthage, including the entire north of Algeria as far as the river Mulucha (Muluya), about 100 miles west of Oran.

Corse

07-01-2013, 05:57 PM

That, and they still actually test-fire guns. This used to be the norm in the industry, but price pressures are driving cost-cutting measures that impact quality.[/SIZE][/I]

This is pretty important to me, it helps to keep me from buying a $500+ paper weight. So basically I don't have to be the guinea pig.

LSP972

07-06-2013, 08:50 AM

Really (http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=42:the-vp70&catid=6:the-pistols&Itemid=5)? :D

Okay... CURRENT HKs.

Curiousity overwhelms me... what is YOUR favorite carry semi-auto?

.

Nephrology

07-06-2013, 10:13 AM

BoppaBear

07-06-2013, 12:12 PM

From over at HKPro...some good answers to QC questions related to HK and its processes, etc.

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=159165

Dagga Boy

07-06-2013, 12:25 PM

I'd also like to add that on top of the consistency of HK's quality controls, they have also done a very good job with their U.S. produced pistols. I have both German and U.S. made HK45's and 45C's, and their is really no difference. We saw some horrendous changes with SIG with their U.S. produced pistols, especially under Cohen. Glock is now following the Cohen plan of "how can we screw up a perfectly good pistol by going to MIM parts and changing things we really don't need to". Hopefully, HK will continue to not only produce great guns out of Germany, but also those produced here for the U.S. market.

LSP972

07-06-2013, 12:42 PM

This thread seems to be going in a jousting-the-windmills kind of direction, but I'll go ahead and ask anyway: what, exactly, makes the HK "feel" more quality? Specifically, LSP972, what about it smacks of quality in a way that the Shield does not?

Let me count the ways. There are two major ones.

First the obvious; the "build" quality. HK parts are crisper, and by that I mean the machining is cleaner and more precise. This is a subjective observation; what may appear "crisper" to me may look plebian to you. Also, the overall finish is better. Again, a subjective observation.

What is not subjective is item #2. Fired brass from an HK rarely displays a drag mark, and if it does it is very faint. What is a drag mark, you ask? It's the mark left on the primer by the firing pin on tilting barrel locked breech designs. Also known as "primer smear", this mark is the result of premature unlocking; i.e., the slide starts moving back and the barrel begins to drop before the firing pin/striker has had chance to be retracted back into the slide completely. IOW, the firing pin drags on the primer, leaving an indentation that has an elongated "smear" on one side, as opposed to a rendition of the firing pin only.

These marks are quite pronounced in some pistols, and not so much in others. Their absence indicates a close-to-perfectly timed action; I.e., better manufacturing tolerances, etc. The term "tolerance stacking" is often applied to polymer frame guns to "explain" inherent problems. Funny... I can not recall ever seeing the term applied to an HK pistol.

Of course, this begs the question that are these drag marks a sign of impending issues? Doubtful; I test-fire dozens of evidence handguns monthly, running the entire spectrum of what's out there, and almost all run jst fine. Most brands display the marks. The only two that consistently do not are HK and Beretta.

Make of that what you will.

.

JodyH

07-06-2013, 03:06 PM

picture = 1000 words
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/20130706_140303_zps0649994c.jpg

Spr1

07-06-2013, 04:41 PM

Excellent. And the G trigger pin has two handy pre-determined break points. Which, 20 some years ago turned my 17 into an 18. Fun, but.......

ToddG

07-07-2013, 08:49 AM

I'd also like to add that on top of the consistency of HK's quality controls, they have also done a very good job with their U.S. produced pistols. I have both German and U.S. made HK45's and 45C's, and their is really no difference.

The HK45 project existed in the US for a ridiculously long time before Germany approved serial production. Same with the MR556. Most companies want the US manufacture versions to "work just as well." HK wanted the US guns to be indistinguishable.

We saw some horrendous changes with SIG with their U.S. produced pistols, especially under Cohen.

Remember, SIG started building major components not just for US-produced pistols but for all SIG pistols -- even the ones built in Germany -- years before Cohen showed up and had no problems. Say again: the US-produced CNC slides were so good that Germany bought them from SIGARMS for German-built guns. I was at SIG (US) when they began CNC'ing frames and that process took a very long time to get right before the first gun was sold to the public. (Interesting fact: the guy in charge of the CNC frame project at SIG later went on to run the production line at HK's US factory; he isn't an engineer by trade, he used to be an FBI gunsmith who primarily worked on HRT's guns)

The problems at SIG began when new management decided to cut back on QC steps (including test firing) and began buying cheaper small parts from second party vendors.

Dagga Boy

07-07-2013, 03:08 PM

The HK45 project existed in the US for a ridiculously long time before Germany approved serial production. Same with the MR556. Most companies want the US manufacture versions to "work just as well." HK wanted the US guns to be indistinguishable.

Remember, SIG started building major components not just for US-produced pistols but for all SIG pistols -- even the ones built in Germany -- years before Cohen showed up and had no problems. Say again: the US-produced CNC slides were so good that Germany bought them from SIGARMS for German-built guns. I was at SIG (US) when they began CNC'ing frames and that process took a very long time to get right before the first gun was sold to the public. (Interesting fact: the guy in charge of the CNC frame project at SIG later went on to run the production line at HK's US factory; he isn't an engineer by trade, he used to be an FBI gunsmith who primarily worked on HRT's guns)

The problems at SIG began when new management decided to cut back on QC steps (including test firing) and began buying cheaper small parts from second party vendors.

I wholly agree. Actually, one of the guns in my "book of tears" (stuff we never should have sold, but usually "had" to) is a 9mm P-229 that was simply a fantastic pistol.

The trying to save 12 cents a gun by using some crap parts is the way to make it for many gun company executives while destroying the brand in the process.

JonInWA

07-08-2013, 01:49 PM

picture = 1000 words
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/20130706_140303_zps0649994c.jpg

Okay....so the HK slide stop/release looks like it could hold up a bridge truss-but I've been using my Glocks with their OEM stamped steel slide stop/releases (their extended ones, across the board on all my Glocks) for tens of thousands of rounds for years without any incidents whatsoever with them (or, for that matter, with pretty much any of my OEM Glock components. Yeah, all of mine are Gen 3s-and the only 2010 one (my newest), a G19, had the OEM MIM extractor replaced immediately upon arrival with a new old stock OEM cast extractor-but still, just sayin'....

I don't deny that in a component-by-component comparison between HK, and, say, Glock, that the HK components are likely "superior." However, conversely, the Glock components are more than sufficient. And, using the Homeland Defender purchase program that many of us on the forum are entitled to, most Glocks literally cost about half as much as a comparable HK. That's a not insignificant amount which can be dedicated towards training and ammunition (and before the discussion of HK aftermarket magazine availability...).

As always, after a certain point, things devolve into individual subjectivity and preference. Are HKs good, if not in most cases excellent, guns? Sure. Are they twice as good as a Glock? I doubt it. While I'm seriously considering an HK P30L Variant 1 (light LEM w/safety), I'm considering it in .40 rather than in 9mm, because my 9mm needs are more than adequately met by my Glocks, whereas the only .40 I have is my Hi Power. Not that I'm the world's biggest .40 fan, but it has consistently been both the most available and the most reasonably-priced cartridge through the two most recent significant ammunition crazes/shortages...hence my consideration of expanding my .40 platform presence...

Arguably a better image might have been a HK recoil spring with it's 25K roundcount lifespan vs. the Glock ones, with their 2K-7K forecasted replacement intervals (depending on 1) the RSA type/Gen, and 2) the phase of the moon for Glock's recommended RSA replacement interval{s})...

Best, Jon

Tamara

07-08-2013, 02:06 PM

Okay... CURRENT HKs.

Curiousity overwhelms me... what is YOUR favorite carry semi-auto?

.

Truthfully? I don't really have one. A favorite, I mean.

I carry an M&P because a couple years ago I went into the local fun show saying "If I can find a Glock 19 or full-size M&P 9 for less than four bills, I'm going to buy it."

I found an LNIB M&P with two mags and a well-worn Gen 2 19 with one mag and those fruity XS sights, and I figure it would be less of a pain in the tuchas to get the M&P rolling and so I bought it and went to the guy with the big "$ SPARE CLIPS $" sign and bought two more M&P mags and bought half a case of 9 ball and some RA9TA and called it a day.

Then I bought another one. And then the same gun, but in .357, for which I'm in the process of acquiring a .40 barrel.

But it's not my favorite gun. I don't much like it, as a matter of fact. I don't like it better than a Glock, or worse, either; I just don't see enough difference between the platforms to get spun up about. I like that they're both as close to a universal, ubiquitous, absolutely fungible 9mm bullet launcher that there is.

My favorite carry gun for many years used to be a nice hand-built custom 1911, but you people ruined that for me (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2012/03/changes.html). :D

BLR

07-08-2013, 02:14 PM

Truthfully? I don't really have one. A favorite, I mean.

I carry an M&P because a couple years ago I went into the local fun show saying "If I can find a Glock 19 or full-size M&P 9 for less than four bills, I'm going to buy it."

I found an LNIB M&P with two mags and a well-worn Gen 2 19 with one mag and those fruity XS sights, and I figure it would be less of a pain in the tuchas to get the M&P rolling and so I bought it and went to the guy with the big "$ SPARE CLIPS $" sign and bought two more M&P mags and bought half a case of 9 ball and some RA9TA and called it a day.

Then I bought another one. And then the same gun, but in .357, for which I'm in the process of acquiring a .40 barrel.

But it's not my favorite gun. I don't much like it, as a matter of fact. I don't like it better than a Glock, or worse, either; I just don't see enough difference between the platforms to get spun up about. I like that they're both as close to a universal, ubiquitous, absolutely fungible 9mm bullet launcher that there is.

My favorite carry gun for many years used to be a nice hand-built custom 1911, but you people ruined that for me (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2012/03/changes.html). :D

You carry a pistol (I refuse the terms "platform" and "kit") you don't like?

I just had a sad. :(

Tamara

07-08-2013, 02:19 PM

You carry a pistol (I refuse the terms "platform" and "kit") you don't like?

I just had a sad. :(

I have no real emotional attachment to my carry pistol, no. It's all cheap and plasticky and Smith didn't ask me whose brand of sear I preferred when they built it.

Tell me, how fond are you of the spare tire in your car?

(nb. I don't carry a "platform", I carry a pistol. The "M&P platform" would be the term I use to refer to the entire family of M&P pistols in all their shapes and sizes and calibers. I'm not tactical enough to use "kit", except in reference to tiny unassembled Messerschmidts. ;) )

BLR

07-08-2013, 02:27 PM

I have no real emotional attachment to my pistol, no. It's all cheap and plasticky and Smith didn't ask me whose brand of sear I preferred when they built it.

Tell me, how fond are you of the spare tire in your car?

(nb. I don't carry a "platform", I carry a pistol. The "M&P platform" would be the term I use to refer to the entire family of M&P pistols in all their shapes and sizes and calibers. I'm not tactical enough to use "kit", except in reference to tiny unassembled Messerschmidts. ;) )

:(

Why is emotional attachment a bad thing?

ETA: Yeah, I understand the spare tire analogy argument. Though, I choose not to live in such a loveless life. I find it quite relaxing to pull a custom Colt out in my office, drop the mag, clear the gun, and coonfinger/dry fire a bit.

Tamara

07-08-2013, 02:36 PM

:(

Why is emotional attachment a bad thing?

I don't think it is. But I also don't think it's necessary for a carry gun, either.

In my case, my head would have had me carrying a lighter pistol with more BBs in the tank years earlier if my heart hadn't been so emotionally invested in my lovingly-hand-crafted custom-built carry pieces.

Was I carrying the gun to admire its meticulous machining, fit and finish, and immaculately sharp hand checkering? Or because I might need to shoot bad guys with it? Did I own the gun or did the gun own me? How much of my shooting skill had I subconsciously invested in my magic swords and how much was I crediting to myself?

YMMV.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I can go up in the attic and coonfinger custom 1911s and pre-war Smiths and bask in the happy of fine machining, but when it comes time to drive nails, this Estwing from Wal-Mart will do the job just fine. ;)

BLR

07-08-2013, 02:46 PM

I get it.

Dagga Boy

07-08-2013, 03:51 PM

I no longer get excited about souless polymer framed mass produced pistols. They are tools for a job. I even have multiple replacements for the little clones and I get no real "joy" from them.

Then there is my safe.......which is full of things to mess around with that give me joy. Big Bore Revolvers, Custom 1911's, P7's, various old police guns from around the world that I wish could speak. The thrill of finding new emotional attachment guns is what drives me today (got a Lew Horton 3" 629 just this morning....which may get engraved some day..:cool:). Polymer service pistols are what I carry, not what I love.

Tamara

07-08-2013, 04:02 PM

(got a Lew Horton 3" 629 just this morning....:cool:)

I love mine! It even has a story. :D

JodyH

07-08-2013, 04:12 PM

I have a NIB Walther P5C swaddled with Nill-Griffe wood inbound for my coonfingering pleasure.
I spent way too much money for it... but that's OK, my boy's not smart enough for college anyway.
:p

Dagga Boy

07-08-2013, 04:40 PM

JodyH

07-08-2013, 04:43 PM

Internet is serious business.
Guns are for fun.

JHC

07-08-2013, 04:52 PM

JHC

07-08-2013, 04:54 PM

I'm actually attached to several of my Glocks. Both RTF2's and the old OD especially. But also the Gen 4 G26. I think it's all because of marksmanship moments with each.

Tamara

07-08-2013, 05:02 PM

Glad to see that sitting around and just enjoying our "Pride of Ownership" guns is appreciated here. For me, its what is still the "fun" part of guns. Once this stuff becomes a job or a very serious endeavor, it loses the fun factor and becomes work.

Heh.

Rather than re-typing something...

Back when I was first in the gun business, '93 or '94 or so, one of our regular customers was a local deputy. He was always willing to come in and kill some time, but no matter how much I wanted to chatter about Glocks and SIGs and HKs, all he ever wanted to look at were old Winchesters and S&W revolvers and Ruger Blackhawks and the like.

"Why?" I asked, "These new modern guns are so cool!"

"Well," he replied, "I reckon I like 'em well enough at work, but when you tote around these Flat-Black People Poppers all day long, they get kinda boring and they all look and work pretty much the same. Why would I want to play with them for fun, too?"

I thought he was silly at the time. (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2009/12/unexcited.html)

After a day of parkerized, tenifered, anodized, cerakoted flat-black people poppers, I can understand the need for some nicely burled French walnut and charcoal blued steel. :)

Clyde from Carolina

07-08-2013, 06:08 PM

BLR

07-08-2013, 07:32 PM

Heh.

Rather than re-typing something...

After a day of parkerized, tenifered, anodized, cerakoted flat-black people poppers, I can understand the need for some nicely burled French walnut and charcoal blued steel. :)

Got an "incentive" ride in an F16 (Springfield, OANG). I thought it was wicked, wild fun.

The pilot, nee' Army Ranger, said after the first 100 times, flying at 300 indicated 500ft off the ground lost its charm.

Still a fun ride. Though, to be honest, my Pitts time was more fun.

Point being - yeah, things can be wonderful fun, right up until you do it every day for a living.

JonInWA

07-10-2013, 03:20 PM

I have a NIB Walther P5C swaddled with Nill-Griffe wood inbound for my coonfingering pleasure.
I spent way too much money for it... but that's OK, my boy's not smart enough for college anyway.
:p

Jody, FYI the P5C has a huge potential structural integrity issue/weakness-the plastic fillet piece that the mainspring strut is embedded/anchored to; as per most Walther plastics/polymers of the era, it is susceptible to being structurally weakened by most US solvents (Earl's Repair very specifically recommended to me that I should only use Kleenbore's Formula 3 to avoid crystallization/weakening of Walther plastic components).

While I knew that Walther polymer grips were susceptible to softening/marring, when my wife's P5C became totally nonfunctional based on the mainspring strut losing its anchoring due to the piece's crystallization and breaking- I was not a very happy camper. Earl's replaced the piece(s), and I traded the P5C for my current Beretta 92D, with absolutely zero regrets.

This weakness is not present in the larger P5, which uses a metal hanger to anchor the mainspring strut to the frame. Further, I believe that the British Army (primarily the SAS) who used/issued the P5C specified that the polymer piece discussed be replaced by a metal one-but I can't personally verify this, as I've never handled a British contract P5C.

Fortunately, regarding the grips, since yours has the wood Nill grips you don't have to worry about that aspect.

I never really warmed up to the P5C; it's somewhat odd shape and balance left me a bit cold-somewhat of a perennial issue for me when Walther has downsized a service-size sidearm to make it more compact. One nice advantage of the P5 family of pistols (and, for that matter, the previous P.38/P1/P4s) is that the dual recoil spring set-up makes for a very easy manual slide retraction-making it a great semi-auto for those with lesser hand-arm strength. The P5C also had a push-button magazine release on most, making them a bit more preferential to US purchasers (although I never had huge problems with the butt heel release on my P5/P.38/P1).

Best, Jon

Suvorov

07-10-2013, 03:45 PM

Got an "incentive" ride in an F16 (Springfield, OANG). I thought it was wicked, wild fun.

The pilot, nee' Army Ranger, said after the first 100 times, flying at 300 indicated 500ft off the ground lost its charm.

Still a fun ride. Though, to be honest, my Pitts time was more fun.

Point being - yeah, things can be wonderful fun, right up until you do it every day for a living.

Absolutely!

As a child and young adult, all I could do is dream about flying the skies and seeing the world. Now, all I can think about is how much time away from my son's lives I am spending. The magic wears off when you have to do it on someone else's terms.

As for the OP - I'm a fan of HKs. I have been "married" to one for over 5 years. It has been a good gun, I like the ergonomics. That said, about the same time I purchased a Sig Pro for non work use. They have been shot about the same amount. The Sig has not been cleaned for nearly 2000 rounds, the HK gets cleaned fairly regularly and certainly 2x a year. In that time, the HK has two failures to fire, on attributed to a bum primer (Federal HST for what it is worth) and one failure to go back into battery. The Sig has yet to have any issues going bang. I realize this is a small sample, but what it does tell me is that HKs are capable of "not going bang" every time and for a non-super high volume shooter like myself, a $500 pistol can be just as reliable as a TOL $1000 pistol.

Not that any of that kept me from purchasing a USP45c last month.

Nik the Greek

07-12-2013, 11:45 PM

FWIW I bought my P30 on the grounds that it would be the safest bet. Never a hint of a problem, though I'm a low volume shooter too. I also only have a little over 2k rounds through mine, cleaned it at 2k. I probably should have posted in the 2k challenge thread.

Westtexasrancher

07-27-2013, 07:42 PM

Cool thread, hope it doesn't die

RBid

07-28-2013, 06:52 PM

Tamara

07-28-2013, 07:31 PM

Trouble is often specific. For example, "Glocks" don't have issues. The 9mm have been hit or miss, but the other caliber lines have been great. There are tons of 21s, 22s, 23s, 30s, etc out there. You won't hear people talking about problems with them any more than you'll hear about trouble with HK or other makes.

Gen 3 Glock .40s suffered well-known reliability issues (http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/hhnj.html), especially when fitted with WMLs. I've heard the rumor that the Gen 4 redesign was to correct specific failings in the .40 cal guns, so the fact that it wound up also borking the nines is more than a little ironic.

Also, IME, Glock 30s & 36s receive more reliability complaints than any other Glock models. The 36's teething problems after its long-delayed launch were epic.

DocGKR

07-28-2013, 08:04 PM

RBid--Tamara's comments above are correct. The 3rd gen G22's have caused numerous problems for multiple LE agencies and quite a few G23's have prematurely broken in Federal LE service. Pre-4rth gen G21's had well described issues at several LE agencies. NYPD had the infamous Phase III malfunctions with their 3rd gen G19's. Let's not get started on G30/G36 failures...

JodyH

07-28-2013, 08:26 PM

*cough* Glock 31 *cough*

psalms144.1

07-28-2013, 08:46 PM

I had my own string of bad luck with Glocks - five, count 'em, FIVE bad G19s in the space of two years. All but the first two were factory replacements for the second (3rd Gen) that couldn't be made to run reliably by the factory. The five G19s were three 3rd Gens and two Gen4s - made between mid-2010 and early 2012. After the last "hand picked" G19 beaned me and three other team mates REPEATEDLY in the forehead with brass and had 2-3 FTEject per magazine did I give up the ghost, and switch to HK. OBTW, I also had an early Gen4 G23 that was spotty on reliability and would shoot more than 18" off POA when myself or any other shooter I handed it to tried to run it.

I have a very good friend of mine, possibly one of the finest "self taught" LE shooters I've ever met, who HAS (please notice current tense) multiple issues with his Gen4 G23. Most notably, and, unfortunately, after I convinced him to dump his 3rd Gen G23 (which wouldn't work with any WML), he now has a "newer and better" G23 that won't reliably function with any WML he's tried on it.

I realize that I and my friend are in a TINY minority of folks who've had EXTREMELY bad luck with recent Glocks, but, it sure puts a bad taste in your mouth... Full disclosure, I do still own three Glocks - two Gen4 G19s and a Gen4 G23. One of the 19s is a commemorative, so unfired in box. The other was reliable through the first 800 or so rounds, then started getting "wonky" on ejection - which situation was remedied immediately by the addition of the Apex FRE. The G23 has had so little range time I wouldn't want to give an impression - still well under 500 rounds through it - just enough to convince myself (again) that, for me, .40 S&W and Glocks are not a combination I like.

I bought my P30 in a fit of anti-Glock emotion, and it has been boringly reliable, and significantly more accurate than any Glock I've ever shot. The P2000 that I picked up on a lark as a "backup" for the P30 is even better - never a single hitch in the gitty up, and even more accurate and easy to shoot than the P30. Now if I could only convince Ameriglo to make their "CAP" front and "Operator" rear NS for my HKs, I'd be close to perfectly happy with them...

I think the Walter PPQ might be another option that gives HK-like ergos, reliability and accuracy, while offering a trigger that's more "workable" than even the Glock's, but I don't have any personal experience with that platform, and I know magazines and accessories are woefully thin.

Regards,

Kevin

LSP972

07-29-2013, 07:37 AM

The 9mm have been hit or miss, but the other caliber lines have been great. .

Guess again, bud. The local PD here, last year, replaced ALL (three hundred plus) of their G22s because they were starting to break parts- mainly the "third pin". When one of those broke during a gunfight, that was the last straw, so to speak. Fortunately the officer- who got off one round before his pistol puked- wasn't hit in the exchange. And before somebody chimes in with the fact that all the other major agencies around here also use the G22, I would remind him that those guns are relatively new (3 to 5 years max). The PD weapons were in service for ten years.

Heck, even a certain federal agency who uses HKs has had some slides crack. Personally, I think the .40 S&W cartridge is the culprit re breakages, because you simply do not hear about 9mm pistols breaking things. But, as others will no doubt pipe up here with details, Glocks have other issues too.

And "the 9mm have been hit or miss" ONLY since Glock began trying to "improve" things. Many of us here have 90s and earlier vintage Glocks (mainly in 9mm) that simply work... with the monotonous reliability the brand WAS famous for. Many of that same batch of folks will have nothing to do with recent-production Glocks... regardless of caliber.

.

ToddG

07-29-2013, 02:57 PM

Trouble is often specific. For example, "Glocks" don't have issues. The 9mm have been hit or miss, but the other caliber lines have been great. There are tons of 21s, 22s, 23s, 30s, etc out there. You won't hear people talking about problems with them any more than you'll hear about trouble with HK or other makes.

As others have said, this is incorrect. Before 4th gen, it was always "9mm Glocks are fine, it's the other calibers that are hit or miss." That was never really true, but it was the conventional wisdom. I've got a folder full of documents on my desktop from a large LE agency that contacted me about substantial problems they're having with their .40-cal gen4 guns. The FBI rejected its first (very large) order of gen4 G23 pistols due to reliability issues. Etc.

I'm not bashing Glocks. I was in a class this past weekend and if I'm recalling correctly, six out of the ten students were shooting Glocks. They didn't become that popular without being decent guns. But suggesting they don't have problems is pure fantasy.

WDW

07-29-2013, 05:01 PM

As others have said, this is incorrect. Before 4th gen, it was always "9mm Glocks are fine, it's the other calibers that are hit or miss." That was never really true, but it was the conventional wisdom. I've got a folder full of documents on my desktop from a large LE agency that contacted me about substantial problems they're having with their .40-cal gen4 guns. The FBI rejected its first (very large) order of gen4 G23 pistols due to reliability issues. Etc.

I'm not bashing Glocks. I was in a class this past weekend and if I'm recalling correctly, six out of the ten students were shooting Glocks. They didn't become that popular without being decent guns. But suggesting they don't have problems is pure fantasy.

Any specifics on the Gen 4 .40 issues you can share?

TumblinDown

07-29-2013, 07:55 PM

RBid

07-30-2013, 12:14 AM

I acknowledge that I was incorrect. My mistake.

ToddG

07-30-2013, 06:01 AM

Any specifics on the Gen 4 .40 issues you can share?

I'm afraid not. What I can say is that the issue clearly isn't universal across every gen4 G22 ever built because plenty of other agencies (ATF, for example) have large quantities of those guns that are running very well.

That's the point... this month's guns may be fine but next month's guns might have a problem. HK seems to be the company least affected by that kind of lot-to-lot variability.

LSP972

07-30-2013, 07:50 AM

That's the point... this month's guns may be fine but next month's guns might have a problem.

Exactly. To the skeptical among us... look up "Indiana State Police Glock 22 Problems" and be amazed. Then think about the fact that both Louisiana State Police, and several other smaller Louisiana state agencies (who piggy-backed off LSP's contract), are using that same pistol, the same way (with WMLs) with no issues. The difference is a couple of years between incidents. AFAIK, the only complaints LSP troopers have is the RTF frame is hard on clothing. The airedales (helicopter pilots) are particularly annoyed re this, as their nomex flight suits were/are rapidly trashed by the RTF grip.

But the guns are working fine.

Its a mystery worthy of Columbo's talent.;)

Of course, the easy answer is to just go with HK and let Glock's problems be Glock's problems...:cool: Personally, I "went" to HK before all of this controversy flared up. But I carried a G19 professionally for many years with total confidence. I still have that pistol (1992 vintage) and still trust it. You can have the new ones.

I've heard, more than once, that the Generation 4 guns were a direct result of the ISP fiasco. They definitely needed to fix the "frame flex" on the .40 Gen 3 (or did they??? Remember, lots of folks are using Gen 3 G22s/35s with WMLs with no problems) but they DIDN'T need to "fix" the 9mm guns. But they did anyway... and we have seen the results of that.

Die-hard Glock fans don't want to hear any of this, and in many cases refuse to acknowledge it. But the fact remains that a lot of qualified folks, who used to recommend Glock without reservation, now give pause.

.

WDW

07-30-2013, 08:57 AM

Just to be fair, I think the reason you see a lot more issues with Glocks in service is that there are a lot more Glocks in service. If HK was in use as widely as the Glock, you'd see a lot more issues with them too I believe.

The HK family of pistols are fine weapons, but the tone of this thread seems to indicate that Glocks are the new Rugers or Hi Points. The fact is that the vast majority of Glocks run just fine. They didn't get to become the most widely issued Law Enforcement pistol for no reason. And while they may not share the refinement of the HK, there is a lot to be said for the modularity, ease of maintenance/repair, cost, accessory support, and legendary reliability of the Glock.

ToddG

07-30-2013, 09:59 AM

Just to be fair, I think the reason you see a lot more issues with Glocks in service is that there are a lot more Glocks in service. If HK was in use as widely as the Glock, you'd see a lot more issues with them too I believe.

I don't buy that. HK has delivered tens of thousands of pistols to DHS-CBP alone. The percentage of those having problems doesn't come close. Most of the problems being discussed here are not the "1 out of every 500 guns we received malfunctioned." That happens to everyone. The problems that really matter are when substantial numbers of guns at one agency or from one shipment all have severe problems, or when a design (gen3 G22) has a systemic problem (won't work reliably with flashlight attached).

WDW

07-30-2013, 11:25 AM

I really wish HK would release a striker fired gun with similar ergos/controls to the P30. Anybody have any ideas as to why they have not?

Rich

07-30-2013, 12:10 PM

I really wish HK would release a striker fired gun with similar ergos/controls to the P30. Anybody have any ideas as to why they have not?

Maybe they aren't sold on the striker

JHC

07-30-2013, 12:39 PM

I'm afraid not. What I can say is that the issue clearly isn't universal across every gen4 G22 ever built because plenty of other agencies (ATF, for example) have large quantities of those guns that are running very well.
.

And I think the same can be said for Gen 4 G17s. And add the phenom of the more recent Gen 3 products having more than normal problems crop up - lot to lot and what do we know? I think what we might know is that the problem is not in the design. This is significant because so many conclude as LSP does above that the Gen 4 design screwed up the 9mm models. But some of the recent Gen 3 issues . . .? It's a consistency of QC or small parts quality or some damn thing.

As LSP also said, a mystery worth of Columbo's talent.

[I actually thought I was in the Gen 4 thread when I posted this]

JAD

07-30-2013, 12:47 PM

I really wish HK would release a striker fired gun with similar ergos/controls to the P30. Anybody have any ideas as to why they have not?
-- Why would they? I've heard of advantages to a hammer system (can be controlled while holstering, is the only one I can think of), but other than I guess compactness what advantage is there to striker fire?

Rich

07-30-2013, 12:56 PM

I've only shot four pistols... two SIGs -- the P226 and the P229; a Beretta 92FS; and a few rounds with a G30. You've all piqued my interest enough that on some cold and gloomy winter day when I move indoors I may have to rent a P30 and see what all the fuss is about! : )

To Me

The fuss is about buying a Pistol today and it be GTG out of the box. Its all about QC and not cutting cost by buying cheaper made small parts.

Your 2 sigs and the 92FS may be as good or better than a HK P30

I know my Sig P229 I bought in 1998 has been doing well so far.

Tamara

07-30-2013, 02:14 PM

This is significant because so many conclude as LSP does above that the Gen 4 design screwed up the 9mm models.

I don't know that I'd use the term "screwed up" as much as I'd say that they took a pretty thoroughly de-bugged system and re-bugged it, essentially turning early adopters of the new guns into beta testers. It sounds like, after solving extractor, ejector and RSA issues, they'e pretty well got the bugs worked out again, and if there are any defects now, it's more of a lot-to-lot QC thing, as you stated.

(It's not an auto, but I once had a Smith 581 I got from Oleg, who said it wouldn't shoot. Turned out that the axis of the barrel was so out of line with the axis of the top chamber that it wouldn't even take a range rod. Threading the hole for the barrel shank that far out of line isn't something that happens to just one gun. I wonder how many serial numbers up and down the line shared that issue before somebody noticed the setup error?)

JHC

07-30-2013, 03:51 PM

I don't know that I'd use the term "screwed up" as much as I'd say that they took a pretty thoroughly de-bugged system and re-bugged it, essentially turning early adopters of the new guns into beta testers. It sounds like, after solving extractor, ejector and RSA issues, they'e pretty well got the bugs worked out again, and if there are any defects now, it's more of a lot-to-lot QC thing, as you stated.

(It's not an auto, but I once had a Smith 581 I got from Oleg, who said it wouldn't shoot. Turned out that the axis of the barrel was so out of line with the axis of the top chamber that it wouldn't even take a range rod. Threading the hole for the barrel shank that far out of line isn't something that happens to just one gun. I wonder how many serial numbers up and down the line shared that issue before somebody noticed the setup error?)

I follow that argument. I just don't think the biggest re-design factor - the RSA was ever really the issue. Changing them several times was a fast knee jerk reaction and it didn't solve the problems. Todd's gun had the .40 weight RSA, our 2010 guns did/still do. If the gun had good parts and was put together right, I don't believe the RSA was the weak link. Just my hunch.

And the other evidence of it being a systemic QC thing is that the "re-bugged" included Gen 3s. Then again I saw a few that went and found some Gen 2s and then started posting in places "hey, this thing has weak and erratic ejection". ;) Yeah some of them did.

ToddG

07-30-2013, 03:57 PM

If the gun had good parts and was put together right, I don't believe the RSA was the weak link. Just my hunch.

Concur.

JonInWA

07-30-2013, 05:57 PM

Partially concur-the changes to the Gen4 covered more than the RSA (and I'm not concerned with the cosmetic ones, like the revised grip finish or the magazine release shape revision). I think that there's a strong chance that other internal component revisions had a subtle, but definite effect on the operability as well, and that there is an engineering/operability interplay between, say, the RSA, the trigger mechanism housing, the ejector, the extractor, and the internal modifications to the frame for these revised components.

And let's not forget the lack of the inner beveling on the inner slide for recoil spring guide/RSA on the initial production runs of the G22 which introduced some problems as well (along with a spate of revised RSAs...).

Given previous and/or concurrent running changes Glock performed with the Gen 3 guns, (i.e., the SF mods, which also resulted in a revised trigger mechanism housing), the Gen "3.5" triggerbars, the change from cast to MIM extractors can both help and confuse problem areas...

And, in a good sense, it looks like the Gen4 G21 is GTG from its introduction-with all the Gen4 mods...

In retrospect (at least my retrospect), I think that Glock's approach at changing G22 was well warranted, and the Gen4 changes were needed and deserved, given the vicissitudes inherent to the .40 cartridge's higher and quicker pressure spiking, and previous Gen 3 issues with attached lights. The problems were when Glock made the G22/G23 changes to be a sort of a drop-in, universal change to the Gen4 9mm platforms....and then not thoroughly testing the 9mm guns prior to their introduction-and that should have included testing with the broad spectrum of common US cartridges- LEO, defensive, and range/target. The material change of the extractors (and possibly other components) apparently was not thoroughly evaluated with a pre-production/introduction run, necessitating further running/catch-up manufacturing fixes-some of which may have introduced a domino effect of their own.

Best, Jon

Clyde from Carolina

07-30-2013, 06:33 PM

Good post. I am not even going to pretend to have an answer, but I know this stuff is complicated. Reminds me of the infamous 7th round stoppage business in the Garand. It was traced to a slight change in how the barrel hole drilling fixture shaved a little too much metal off the inside of the receiver. The prototypes and early guns hadn't done it and it was a real mystery for a while. Even that is not the whole story. Experienced Garand mechanics will tell you even "fixed" guns (early ones were welded up in rebuild) can do it because of bad stocks, etc. Like I said, this stuff is complicated.

ToddG

07-30-2013, 08:35 PM

Partially concur-the changes to the Gen4 covered more than the RSA (and I'm not concerned with the cosmetic ones, like the revised grip finish or the magazine release shape revision).

Actually, I've always wondered if the change in the mag catch (and magazines) plays any role in the reliability decline. It would be interesting to know if the tolerances changed in terms of how high the magazine is held in the frame throughout the operation cycle. With all the recent talk about how the presence of the mag can play a role in reliable ejection, who knows what a few thousandths shallower magazine height could make...

WDW

07-30-2013, 08:57 PM

Actually, I've always wondered if the change in the mag catch (and magazines) plays any role in the reliability decline. It would be interesting to know if the tolerances changed in terms of how high the magazine is held in the frame throughout the operation cycle. With all the recent talk about how the presence of the mag can play a role in reliable ejection, who knows what a few thousandths shallower magazine height could make...

I don't know, seeing how older mags work fine. My theory is the ejector. If you look at early Glocks (Gen 1,2, & pre 2009 ish 3) the ejectors on the 9mm & .40 Glocks were straight. With the 336 ejector, they introduced a slight bend to the right. In theory, this should aid in ejecting the spent case out of the ejection port to the right. In reality, what I believe it does is cause the case to ricochet off of the inside of the slide near the port, causing it to lose velocity resulting in erratic ejection. This would explain why it happens inconsistently & sometimes not at all. Even the new 30274 ejector has a slight, albeit less pronounced bend to the right. I believe the higher velocity of the .357/.40 guns minimize the issue, why it is not seen as frequently as in the 9mm Glocks. This could also explain why it happens to both Gen 3 & Gen 4 Glocks. I believe if Glock reintroduced a perfectly straight ejector in the 9mm/.40 size frame, the problem of screwy ejection would more or less disappear. I mean, ever look inside every other 9mm out there? Ejectors are all straight & they don't have the weak ejection BTF issues.

ToddG

07-30-2013, 09:00 PM

I don't know, seeing how older mags work fine.

"Work fine" or "work as well as the new mags?"

Were people reporting that their 9mm gen4 problems went away if they used non-ambi mags? I never saw that.

JV_

07-30-2013, 09:09 PM

Almost all of my Glock 19 mags are non ambi mags, and my guns were unreliable.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4 Beta

WDW

07-30-2013, 09:13 PM

Almost all of my Glock 19 mags are non ambi mags, and my guns were unreliable.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4 Beta
It would be interesting to see if there was actually any dimensional difference between ambi/non-ambi mags as well as any difference in height after insertion & lock up in the mag well. My guess is no & if there is, it would be so minimal as not to affect anything.

LtDave

07-30-2013, 09:14 PM

"Work fine" or "work as well as the new mags?"

Were people reporting that their 9mm gen4 problems went away if they used non-ambi mags? I never saw that.

I've noticed that the older mags fit closer to the bottom of the grip. With new mags, you can still see some of the mag body when they are inserted.

ToddG

07-30-2013, 09:25 PM

My guess is no & if there is, it would be so minimal as not to affect anything.

You could certainly be right. I don't mean to imply I've figured out part of the puzzle.

But that's the problem with making so many changes at once. Frame, slide, RSA, angle at which most of the internals fit into the gun, extractor, ejector, mag catch, magazine... When something doesn't work, where do you begin?

WDW

07-30-2013, 09:36 PM

You could certainly be right. I don't mean to imply I've figured out part of the puzzle.

But that's the problem with making so many changes at once. Frame, slide, RSA, angle at which most of the internals fit into the gun, extractor, ejector, mag catch, magazine... When something doesn't work, where do you begin?
Todd,

What are your thoughts on going back to a perfectly straight ejector? I mean, it's the one thing that actually changed shape & seeing how the problem is ejection & it didn't start until they changed its shape. I mean, it seems pretty cut & dry to me. Ejection is fine with a straight ejector, they bend it & then it sucks (336), they bend it a little less it sucks a little less (32074). Apex should come out with a straight drop in replacement ejector or Glock should just go back to what they had before.

ToddG

07-30-2013, 10:00 PM

What are your thoughts on going back to a perfectly straight ejector?

I'm inclined to believe they made the change for a reason, possibly related to the realignment of the trigger housing. If going to a straight ejector was the answer then why change it to something other when they had (old) straight ones already?

GJM

07-31-2013, 12:06 AM

I heard from a very reliable source, some problems turned up with the Gen 4 40's when the mag release was actually reversed. Think, but can't be certain, the fix was yet another new follower.

LSP972

07-31-2013, 09:56 AM

And the games continue in Exeter.

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/3510099823/p/1

HK keeps looking better and better...

.

Tamara

07-31-2013, 11:08 AM

And the games continue in Exeter.

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/3510099823/p/1

Yeah, you could polish the feed ramp right off that gun and it wouldn't fix the problem.

JohnK

07-31-2013, 01:34 PM

And the games continue in Exeter.

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/3510099823/p/1

HK keeps looking better and better...

.

I certainly hope that this isn't the case with the 2 MK 25 pistols I have. I am in the middle of the 2,000 round test and i'm just shy of 700 rds. I have a P30 V3 that I love but I am way more accurate and shoot better with the Sig. So far, I haven't had any (knocks on wood) issues with the 226. Maybe I have been blessed with Wednesday guns.

LSP972

08-01-2013, 06:42 AM

I certainly hope that this isn't the case with the 2 MK 25 pistols I have.

With you on that. The P226 was, at one time, the gold standard for 9mm service pistols. Still can be, compared to some of the "new" stuff. I don't recall reading of any major issues, like the one in that P224 link, regarding the P226.

Maybe Cohen's clowns have yet to goon that one up?

.

JohnK

08-01-2013, 11:12 AM

With you on that. The P226 was, at one time, the gold standard for 9mm service pistols. Still can be, compared to some of the "new" stuff. I don't recall reading of any major issues, like the one in that P224 link, regarding the P226.

Maybe Cohen's clowns have yet to goon that one up?

.

I hope not. Why fix something if it isn't broken? I researched this particular pistol as much as possible specifically for people's negative reactions to the 226, and I found only one poor review. I hope I am lucking out with it.

Tod-13

08-02-2013, 09:56 AM

I really wish HK would release a striker fired gun with similar ergos/controls to the P30. Anybody have any ideas as to why they have not?

I've always heard that HK only designs and builds guns in response to a government RFP. (Warning, generalization ahead!) Most governments still require safeties and/or second strike capability. For the most part, if you are going to have a safety and/or a double action trigger, there isn't any major advantage to a striker fired gun, you might as well have a DA/SA with safety/decocker or a DAO (LEM trigger) gun. I understand this is changing, as more organizations see the utility in a simple striker fired gun.

Salamander

08-31-2013, 09:01 PM

I had one of the really bad gen3 9mm Glock's. Brass in the face started at about 800 rounds and got steadily worse, FTE issues started by 1100 rounds. By 1200 it was jamming an average of three times per 100, with another 10 BTF per 100. I replaced the ejector with the 30274 version, put in one of the then brand new Apex extractors and a non-LCI bearing, nothing helped. If anything it just kept getting worse. Finally I sold the gun to someone more willing to mess with it than I was.

That's when I went to HK, and everything has been great since then. Three HK's and several thousand rounds later I've yet to have a single stoppage or malfunction. All of them are stock except for night sights and extended mag releases.

Every now and then I toy with the idea of getting a G19 or M&P9. And every time after thinking about it a while, I decide why bother. There are a few very different reasons for staying away from them.

The first is purely functional. I've come to prefer the HK-style mag release, and have pretty much decided to standardize on that instead of training with two different versions.

The second is more of a confidence issue. My HK's work. My Glock didn't. I still have a M&P45 and am overall pretty happy with it, but every time I start to think S&W may have resolved the 9mm issue, I read about someone who got a bad one. Same only worse with Glock, except there it's a combination of reading and experience. Last training course I was at it was me with a P2000 and 13 guys with Glocks... 17's, 19's, 22's, and 23's. My HK ran flawlessly for 800+ rounds. So did some of the Glock's. But some of the Glock's didn't. There were no catastrophic failures as far as I know, but there was lots of erratic ejection, more than a few FTE's, and one guy had his plastic front sight fall off. The only comment about ejection from my P2000 came from a guy who stood in the wrong place a few feet off and a little behind my right shoulder to watch one drill; he said that my brass had hit him hard in almost the same spot each time. He said something about much stronger ejection than his Glock.

So that one comes down to my lack of complete trust in those "other" brands. I should mention that my older Sig P229 has been solid as well (although not fired all that much), but again the things I've read about recent guns have been enough to scare me away.

The third aspect is related to time. I like to tinker with guns, but I'm also very busy, my work can get demanding and I'm active in a lot of outside things. The hours I put into that unreliable Glock eventually came to be perceived as lost hours, time I could have spent doing other things. Time has value, especially when those little surprises happen at the worst possible time.

I guess there's a fourth one, too. I'm feeling more than a little annoyed with large corporations who at some top management level apparently place profit and cost-cutting ahead of producing consistently reliable guns. After all, these aren't microwave ovens... as annoying as that too would be if QC suffered, in the case of self-defense weapons a substandard product could cost someone their life. I find that kind of corporate decision making to be unacceptable, and so I've pretty much decided to spend my money with a company that so far appears to take their "no compromise" slogan seriously.

If that costs a little more, so be it. I'm not sure those other guns are really much "cheaper" in the end. Maybe some of them work fine out of the box. But every time I think about trying another one, I remember how much time and money I wasted last time. And I decide I really don't want to take a chance on getting another bad one. I'm not sure what the chance of that happening is, but if my last training class is any indication it's a whole lot worse than one in 500. I'd say at least a quarter of those guns had at least minor annoyance-level issues.

Dagga Boy

08-31-2013, 09:41 PM

"MY Brother".......Could have wrote the above myself. I was thinking about trying a 19 again or a compact M&P.........I have a P2000 9mm LEM coming to try for a straight concealment pistol and use the P30's as more training and OWB type carry guns. I daily carry a P30, and I LOVE the P30's, but I want to try the P2000 for something a little smaller and slicker for a dedicated AIWB gun. I have also had such good luck with the P2000SK that I know I already like the idea.

1slow

08-31-2013, 11:21 PM

I have HK45LEM, P30 9mm LEM, P2000SK 9mm LEM, all have been flawlessly reliable and very accurate.
Wife's SK was my first exposure to LEM, Gomez had recommended it as a Glock alternative for small hands. Even though it is small for my hands, I shot it well.
I am considering transitioning to HK45LEM/P30 9mm LEM. I have proven reliable Glocks but I shoot the HKs better at 25 yd 6"x6" headplates. I am not quite as consistently fast at 7yds AIWB CCW draw to headshot but my best times are slightly better than with GL17. Considering I have 250,000+ rounds through Glocks over 23 years and maybe 2000-3000 rounds through LEM HKs, I think the HK Lem has real potential for me.

LSP972

09-01-2013, 09:25 AM

......I have a P2000 9mm LEM coming to try for a straight concealment pistol

I've got one in the safe that I've been eyeing for that purpose. What's stopping me is that the only reason I'm looking to replace the HK45C is weight... and the P2000 isn't that much lighter. The P2000SK is a bit lighter still, but I have been unable to find one in 9mm to shoot... and I recall that I found the 'finger groove' grip objectionable, way back when we were looking at them for the wife (she didn't like it either, and chose the P2000), so I want to be sure before I buy one.

The shorter butt should definitely make AWIB better for you. We have three P30s; two in .40 that are my wife's primary and spare, and a 9mm that is sort of a "community pistol". She is married to them. I like them okay, but the HK45C is my favorite; the big bullet is a bonus. Okay, call me old-fashioned...

The longer reset on the P-series guns messes with me too. If I were to "switch", it would have to be completely. Being accustomed to the HK45C, every time I shoot the P2000 or P30 I must make a conscious effort not to short-stroke the trigger.

Interesting (but applicable) side story... this search for a more comfortable EDC pistol has taken me all over the map. The Shield showed the most promise, but we now see how that turned out when it joined the ranks of the Recall Brigade. I don't shoot the thing that great, anyway, so the recall was not that big of a disappointment. I thought about (and strapped up a few times) my older- i.e., reliable- G19s... even put NY1 trigger springs in all of them, because IMO that is the Glock's real weak point. Plus, I have three G19s customized with red dot sights, so that would be two birds with one rock. FWIW, a fully loaded G19 with Docter RDS weighs two-tenths short of a half-pound less than a fully loaded HK45C. That turns out to be significant at the end of the day.

I have done this a half-dozen times; carry the Glock, then start feeling guilty and go back to the HK. Then the weight starts to bother me, so I carry the Glock again... then get guilty, etc., etc. Now I know what women feel like when standing in front of a shoe display... and its driving me nuts.

I'm about ready to shove an AirWeight J frame in each pocket and call it good...

.

JodyH

09-01-2013, 09:53 AM

I'm about ready to shove an AirWeight J frame in each pocket and call it good...
Luddite.

Just suck it up and buy the SK 9mm LEM and some flat magazine baseplates.
The good part about buying H&K, if you don't like it you can immediately flip it for the same price you paid for it (especially the SK LEM).
The resale is phenomenal on LNIB H&K's.

CCT125US

09-01-2013, 10:58 AM

Alright, time for me to chime in. Just picked up an SK v3 from a forum member. After some initial familiarization with the smaller size, it is a joy to shoot. It is built like a tank when compared to my wife's G26. And unlike the Glock, I can get a full firing grip with the flat base pads. The G26 causes my pinky to dangle.
If the cost of HK does not bother you, it handles well for you, and most importantly you can hit with it, I don't think you can go wrong.

LSP972

09-01-2013, 11:13 AM

If the cost of HK does not bother you...

The wife and I have ten of them, between us.

It ain't the price...;)

.

LSP972

09-01-2013, 11:19 AM

Luddite.

Just suck it up and buy the SK 9mm LEM and some flat magazine baseplates.

Indeed I am.

Still, you're probably right.

As for the resale thing; I only do that FTF, and the prevailing attitude around here is what we hear a lot of on the forums; HKs are over-priced pixie dust, etc., etc., ad nauseum.

But it would definitely be a LEM... all of our pistols are LEM. The placement of the decocking button on the DA/SA examples is simply... bizarre.

.

CCT125US

09-01-2013, 11:26 AM

The wife and I have ten of them, between us.

It ain't the price...;)

.

You sir, are a good man. My wife is addicted to HK as well. Looks like we both picked the right girl..

GJM

09-01-2013, 11:30 AM

Alright, time for me to chime in. Just picked up an SK v3 from a forum member.

While LEM and PF almost go together as one, I wonder whether the DA/SA variants may be better shooters.

YVK

09-01-2013, 11:54 AM

The placement of the decocking button on the DA/SA examples is simply... bizarre.

.

Dunno, I think that part is simply ingenious. Easily accessible by both hands unlike Sig, doesn't interfere with slide manipulations like Beretta, and doesn't present even theoretical concern of decocking during the fire when riding the lever as it has happened with HK's own DA/SA 45.

While LEM and PF almost go together as one, I wonder whether the DA/SA variants may be better shooters.

With recent mass sell-off of P30s here the bold part is a big suspect.
The italicized part should have a disclaimer - if one can manage HK's DA pull.

LEM should come out from factory with V4.1 reduced takeup part kit and normal reset, which we know can happen since reset on 45s is fine. If that were to happen, my all other polymer guns will be gone.

CCT125US

09-01-2013, 12:37 PM

Dunno, I think that part is simply ingenious. Easily accessible by both hands unlike Sig, doesn't interfere with slide manipulations like Beretta, and doesn't present even theoretical concern of decocking during the fire when riding the lever as it has happened with HK's own DA/SA 45.

Agreed

With recent mass sell-off of P30s here the bold part is a big suspect.

Kind of, if they are being sold on the forum, they are simply changing hands. Reasons are not always known as to why someone sells.

The italicized part should have a disclaimer - if one can manage HK's DA pull.

Some people where never told that DA is hard

GJM

09-01-2013, 12:41 PM

I like DA triggers, especially for a first shot. For me, the question is about follow-up shots, and the comparison of LEM versus the P30 SA trigger?

Rich

09-01-2013, 12:55 PM

Dunno, I think that part is simply ingenious. Easily accessible by both hands unlike Sig, doesn't interfere with slide manipulations like Beretta, and doesn't present even theoretical concern of decocking during the fire when riding the lever as it has happened with HK's own DA/SA 45.

.

My primary is a P229 in 40cal

Brought home a P30S the other day.

And I've been dry firing it a bit . I'm waiting on my IWB holster and some more ammo before heading to range.

Anyway after handling the P30S I found the De Cock to be in a excellent position. And can be used with my support L hand.

Beretta 96 and S&W 5906/ 6906

I have a lots of time spent shooting the 5906 and 6906.

And just a little time with the Beretta 96 ( a week before trade in)

I never had a issue with the De cock /safety.

CCT125US

09-01-2013, 01:13 PM

I like DA triggers, especially for a first shot. For me, the question is about follow-up shots, and the comparison of LEM versus the P30 SA trigger?

Lyman electronic:

P30 v3 range gun, dryfire, all around beater gun, 25k+
DA 8lbs 10oz
SA 4lbs 5oz

P30 v3 carry gun 10k+
DA 8lb 13oz
SA 4lb 13oz

Wife's v3
DA 9lb 10oz
SA 5lb 1oz
Needs the LFPBS

P2000SK v3 acquired from forum member 500+/-
DA 10lb 10oz
SA 5lb 5oz

Rich

09-01-2013, 01:16 PM

I like DA triggers, especially for a first shot. For me, the question is about follow-up shots, and the comparison of LEM versus the P30 SA trigger?

Seems everyone who likes SA/DA just loves Sig SA/DA trigger.

I find the P30S just different. Not bad or anything.

I haven't even broke the P30S in yet.

But the SA trigger from cock and locked seems to be a tad lighter than my standard P229 trigger in SA mode.

Yeah that's what I like about my Sig P229 is the follow-up shots

My SA shot is always off my first DA shot. But I'm okay with it since its off just a tad.

JodyH

09-01-2013, 01:30 PM

H&K's SA trigger is not bad, their DA is atrocious.
In my experience.

YVK

09-01-2013, 02:57 PM

I don't think that DA is particularly that hard, although it doesn't require more discipline. I am currently learning DA/SA with a Beretta, and with about 500 live and 1000 dry shots it is getting there. I have about 500 rounds through a rental DA/SA P30, and slightly less through 229 and 226. Based on the above experience, I'd use the same word as Jody did to describe HK's DA, obviously, in relative sense to other DAs. Going with DA/SA P30 would've been an absolutely logical choice for me given 6 holsters, 20 some mags and bunch of mag pouches I have for me LEM P30, yet was turned off enough to go with a Beretta for this.

Dagga Boy

09-01-2013, 03:46 PM

There was a time when I could really shoot a DA/SA gun well and they were my preferred system. However; a half a million rounds later with mostly .45 DA/SA guns and shooting mostly controlled pairs with the DA first shot, the arthritis in my hands has become a massive issue. I came to the LEM as it was sort of like a DA/ but easier for me to manage the first round with my had issues. I agree that the P30 DA/SA guns are a great layout for the system. One pistol I always shot very well was the USP.45 Expert. The Match trigger was a big help, and I wish HK would have those types of trigger systems readily available for those in the US and elsewhere not as bound to the contract and specified weights required elsewhere. Essentially, I wish they would capitalize on the adaptability of the HK trigger system.

GJM

09-01-2013, 04:05 PM

If you can't press the DA, on account of injury, I understand the LEM preference.

However, when I see how well CCT125US consistently shoots his DA/SA, and that the HK shooting team uses DA/SA, I consider that a strong clue. With almost no prior DA/SA experience, following in JV's footsteps, I quickly spooled up on a Sig DA/SA, and was able to shoot Advanced at Rogers with the Sig 226 after just three months with the pistol. My buddy just won stock SSP and third overall in the CO state IDPA championship with a 226 Even though I am shooting a Glock, I am fondling a Beretta, and that will likely be the next thing I focus on.

The more time I spend with a DA/SA, the more I like it. It also makes me shoot everything else better, which I attribute to having to learn to steer the sights while pressing a long/heavy DA trigger. Despite my affection for HK, the more time I spend with the LEM, the more I wish HK produced a good DA/SA trigger variant.

YVK

09-01-2013, 04:25 PM

The Match trigger was a big help, and I wish HK would have those types of trigger systems readily available for those in the US and elsewhere not as bound to the contract and specified weights required elsewhere. Essentially, I wish they would capitalize on the adaptability of the HK trigger system.

Bullseye, touchdown, home run, ace out wide...

We know HK can get it done right, DA/SA or LEM, it is just inconceivable that in current competitive market they still won't optimize their products for its biggest civilian market.

That said, seeing how GJM and myself are flirting with now long discontinued yet sought-after Beretta models, it becomes clear HK is not alone here....

JodyH

09-01-2013, 04:51 PM

I get the feeling that H&K considers the US a legislative earthquake zone.
They want to be able to pack up and move in 15 minutes and they don't want to build anything permanent.
Can't blame them, they've been burned by both US and German laws in the past.

JodyH

09-01-2013, 04:55 PM

If you can't press the DA, on account of injury, I understand the LEM preference.

However, when I see how well CCT125US consistently shoots his DA/SA, and that the HK shooting team uses DA/SA, I consider that a strong clue.
I still consider the LEM a better carry trigger than a DA/SA primarily due to the fact there's no de-cocking required.
The fewer steps required to make a pistol "safe" the better IMO.

GJM

09-01-2013, 05:46 PM

I still consider the LEM a better carry trigger than a DA/SA primarily due to the fact there's no de-cocking required.
The fewer steps required to make a pistol "safe" the better IMO.

I understand your point about decocking, but given a choice I think the heavier DA press, of nearly twice the weight compared to the LEM, is arguably a bigger safety feature than protecting a person that fails to decock and ride the hammer on the way back in.

ToddG

09-01-2013, 05:55 PM

However, when I see how well CCT125US consistently shoots his DA/SA, and that the HK shooting team uses DA/SA, I consider that a strong clue.

I'd consider it two strong clues!

Clue #1: it works better for CCT125US.

Clue #2: the shooting team has some reason -- unknown and undefined here -- for choosing the DA/SA. Assuming it's because they shoot it better is a huge leap. I can't even keep track of who is on the team at this point, but having talked to some past team members they had essentially no experience with the LEM and had no interest in using it based on HK's focus, game rules, etc. Even if some of them do actually prefer it, I don't see how that proves anything other than some people prefer it.

Having shot DA/SA guns more than most people here -- hundreds of thousands of rounds through dozens of guns from multiple manufacturers over many years -- I think the LEM is awesome and I know I shot it better. So does Ernest Langdon. In fact, a pretty common theme I see is that folks who have a lot of DA/SA experience prefer it, while folks coming from SFA/SAO guns are less likely to "get" it. There are exceptions to both, of course.

I certainly see and appreciate the benefit of the DA/SA system and wouldn't criticize anyone for choosing it.

GJM

09-01-2013, 06:26 PM

Having shot DA/SA guns more than most people here -- hundreds of thousands of rounds through dozens of guns from multiple manufacturers over many years -- I think the LEM is awesome and I know I shot it better. So does Ernest Langdon. In fact, a pretty common theme I see is that folks who have a lot of DA/SA experience prefer it, while folks coming from SFA/SAO guns are less likely to "get" it. There are exceptions to both, of course.

A few questions. Did Ernest also try DA/SA in the P30, and prefer LEM after giving both a try? How does Ernest shoot the LEM compared to the Beretta and Sig?

Todd, do you prefer the LEM over HK DA/SA because you prefer LEM to the HK SA, or when considering DA and SA together, you prefer LEM? Did you run HK DA/SA in a test to form your opinion?

CCT125US

09-01-2013, 06:56 PM

I understand your point about decocking, but given a choice I think the heavier DA press, of nearly twice the weight compared to the LEM, is arguably a bigger safety feature than protecting a person that fails to decock and ride the hammer on the way back in.

IMO a P30 v3 that has not been decocked is no more dangerous than any number of SF guns. Work the trigger, gun goes boom. My reason for working the decocker is for consistency of presentation from the holster or ready.

Clue #2: the shooting team has some reason -- unknown and undefined here -- for choosing the DA/SA. Assuming it's because they shoot it better is a huge leap. I can't even keep track of who is on the team at this point, but having talked to some past team members they had essentially no experience with the LEM and had no interest in using it based on HK's focus, game rules, etc. Even if some of them do actually prefer it, I don't see how that proves anything other than some people prefer it.

Q1: Does anyone know if they use the "s" variant? If so, cocked and locked is sort of like cheating :)

Q2: Is the HK shooting team consistently winning major matches with their choice?

If you can't press the DA, on account of injury, I understand the LEM preference.

The more time I spend with a DA/SA, the more I like it. It also makes me shoot everything else better, which I attribute to having to learn to steer the sights while pressing a long/heavy DA trigger..

After some sessions with 100 or so reps of DA pulls, I can certainly appreciate the LEM variant, my hand would hurt less. Good point on steering /driving the sights.

The reason I have sworn off LEM for now is that I would be introducing a new system into the mix. My wife started me down the P30 v3 path and I am so far down the rabbit hole that climbing back out is not worth it now.

Now as someone mentioned, give me a P30 with Sig SRT installed, and the angels would sing.

ToddG

09-01-2013, 07:45 PM

A few questions. Did Ernest also try DA/SA in the P30, and prefer LEM after giving both a try? How does Ernest shoot the LEM compared to the Beretta and Sig?

You'd have to ask Ernest. What I know for certain is that he has shot a lot of DA/SA guns and now chooses to carry (and occasionally compete with) a P30 in LEM.

Todd, do you prefer the LEM over HK DA/SA because you prefer LEM to the HK SA, or when considering DA and SA together, you prefer LEM? Did you run HK DA/SA in a test to form your opinion?

The LEM, to me, is like having a SAO gun with a long takeup on the first shot. So you get most of the extra safety of a DA without the effort and without the need to decock. Again, I have nothing against the DA/SA version (or DA/SA in general) and in fact I think I'm probably one of the most pro-DA instructors out there these days.

I've shot the P30 v3 very little. But since you and I seem to agree that Beretta and SIG DA/SA guns are superior in trigger characteristics to the HK v3, and since I have a whole freakin' lot of rounds down the pipe of Beretta and SIG DA/SA guns, and since I prefer the LEM to those, then we can get all syllogistic:

LEM > Beretta & SIG DA/SA > HK DA/SA

The reason I have sworn off LEM for now is that I would be introducing a new system into the mix.

And that's all the reason you need. The v3 certainly doesn't seem to be holding you back. What did Hackathorn say to you about your P30 piloting skills? :cool:

LSP972

09-01-2013, 08:41 PM

Looks like we both picked the right girl..

We did indeed.

.

LSP972

09-01-2013, 08:44 PM

Easily accessible by both hands unlike Sig,

Uh... no. Wrong-handed folks (or a right-handed one holding the piece in the left hand) can decock quite handily using the trigger finger.

.

LSP972

09-01-2013, 08:47 PM

Dagga Boy

09-01-2013, 08:58 PM

It scares me that I am reading Todd's post with 100% agreement on every sentence:cool:.

ToddG

09-01-2013, 09:01 PM

It scares me that I am reading Todd's post with 100% agreement on every sentence:cool:.

Proof that even at your very advanced age ... I mean advanced skill level! ... you can still learn. :cool:

LSP972

09-01-2013, 09:31 PM

Well, I too have quite a bit of time crunching DA/SA triggers... mainly Sigs and third generation S&Ws, but a smattering of others too. The LEM is just... better... for all the reasons enumerated above, as far as I'm concerned.

One odd thing I've noticed is this... many folks, particularly guys with some varied experience, dismiss the LEM immediately after trying it because it is so different. However... a lot of those who give it an honest try (as in, more than a couple of magazines' worth) eventually "get it". I'll admit it took me several hundred rounds before the light dawned.

Both of my grandsons are Beretta 92 lovers. I have forgiven them, but in the meantime have been putting quite a few rounds through our pair of 92Fs when I take the boys to the range. Not bad at all (especially with the D spring)... but it ain't no LEM.

Still, I entertained the notion of picking up a clean P-series DA/SA in 9mm, just for old times' sake... until I counted the number of 9mm pistols already in the safe. And just the other day, I was offered a new-production P220 with a short trigger (I'm assuming it was also the SRT) and the E2 grip, that felt wonderful. Passed on that one, too.

If I want to practice with carry iron, I have plenty of HKs. If I want to get all warm, fuzzy, and nostalgic, I have a Colt WW1 1911 repro that is surprisingly accurate and reliable, even with SWC reloads.

Bottom line... I trained a ton of folks over the span of 20+ years as an LE instructor. In the early days of the LE semi-auto revolution, DA/SA was THE ticket... primarily because it was the only real alternative to cocked-and-locked. And those who had a genuine, multi-day transition program, where the decocking motion could be properly ingrained, had no troubles. Yes, Glock was around, but many of us were suspicious of it and listened to the FBI... who declared it (unofficially, of course) the anti-Christ. My, how things change. But that's another story...

At any rate, DA/SA was viable then, and remains so to this day. Like Todd, I won't think unkindly of anyone who chooses it. But its no longer MY first choice.

OTOH, some of the anti-LEM posts in this thread seem to me to be of the 'Methinks thou dost protest too much' variety.

.

YVK

09-01-2013, 09:54 PM

Uh... no. Wrong-handed folks (or a right-handed one holding the piece in the left hand) can decock quite handily using the trigger finger.

.

I will have to check this next time I am at LGS. I remember needing to break grip to decock significantly more with Sig than with P30, but I am no Sig guy.

That, and no DA/SA transition to learn. Sure, it CAN be learned... but why complicate things when its not necessary?

.

I think everything is a compromise. In P30 I am an LEM guy, but hitting fast splits with stock DA/SA P30 required less efforts than with my reduced reset LEM. That was then though, maybe I should rent it and run them again, together with that Sig.

GJM

09-01-2013, 10:10 PM

One odd thing I've noticed is this... many folks, particularly guys with some varied experience, dismiss the LEM immediately after trying it because it is so different. However... a lot of those who give it an honest try (as in, more than a couple of magazines' worth) eventually "get it". I'll admit it took me several hundred rounds before the light dawned.
.

I would suggest that PF is populated by a very high percentage of serious* shooters. PF also has an extremely high percentage of ex LEM shooters. These folks haven't put hundreds but rather thousands and tens of thousands of rounds thru an LEM. Consider JV, Josh, Fred M, Tom Jones, and BOM to name just a few staff members now ex LEM shooters.. At AFHS in ABQ, there were three LEM shooters including myself, and most everyone else there was an ex LEM shooter, now shooting a Glock or Sig.

As Todd argues, discount the HK shooting team, as either not knowledgeable about LEM, or shooting DA/SA because it advances some unknown corporate purpose that would trump placing as high as possible. Discount the team member on HK Pro saying DA/SA works better for them in USPSA.

Discount that only one person has ever shot Advanced at Rogers with an LEM.

Discount that like nobody shooting at the higher levels of IDPA and USPSA is using a LEM.

Discount that only one of the 11 FAST coin holders (to my best count) used a LEM, Josh, and that he recently sold his LEM P30.

Make even an anecdotal review of reported results on the DOW reference the LEM. Not sure why, but I can hardly find a person participating with an LEM.

What that basically leaves is Todd loves the LEM, although apparently not enough to trump his infatuation with the 1911, and Ernest Langdon really likes it.

What I hear over and over is "gosh, I love the P30 and LEM, it is just I shoot _______ better."

I am not the trigger police, and folks are free to use whatever they want. There may also be reasons for the LEM regardless of raw performance. It is just for folks pushing their performance, almost inevitably they leave the LEM for something they shoot better.

* shooters that run practical pistols, carried in real holsters, shooting demanding drills, and measuring performance.

ToddG

09-01-2013, 10:27 PM

Dude, we get it. You don't like the LEM. I, for one, will still fall asleep tonight untroubled.

Dagga Boy

09-01-2013, 10:31 PM

"As Todd argues, discount the HK shooting team, as either not knowledgeable about LEM, or shooting DA/SA because it advances some unknown corporate purpose that would trump placing as high as possible. Discount the team member on HK Pro saying DA/SA works better for them in USPSA."

You know, I would probably not pick the LEM as a go to for pure shooting exercises and tests. I tell most that I "shoot" Glocks and 1911's better, and if I still had the hand strength, could probably run a DA/SA better. I won the most important match (for personal reasons) of my life with a P-226 shooting against a majority of Glocks on a course set up by all Glock shooters. With that said, I tell folks that I carry a LEM gun because I think it is the best "street trigger" out there. After all, it is called the "Law Enforcement Module"....you know, for people who manage a lot of people at the end of a gun, including a vast majority that do not need shooting. Now, if it was called the "Uber-Match shooting Module", well then I don't think it would be like a LEM. For what its worth HK can build a killer match trigger.....shoot a tuned Match P9S trigger in S/A and you'll see what I am talking about.

I can answer the "why's" of what is different between the LEM and the others as far as the exact characteristics that are different from the others in regards to "people management" if we want to go that deep.

I'll just end at this point that the member of the HK shooting team that happens to be a full time LEO on his agency's SWAT team uses different triggers in his guns for different types of matches...........and carries LEM guns exclusively for his duty pistols......hmmm:confused:.

Dagga Boy

09-01-2013, 10:32 PM

Proof that even at your very advanced age ... I mean advanced skill level! ... you can still learn. :cool:

Oh.......I thought it was you coming around.....finally;).

CCT125US

09-01-2013, 10:37 PM

In P30 I am an LEM guy, but hitting fast splits with stock DA/SA P30 required less efforts than with my reduced reset LEM. That was then though, maybe I should rent it and run them again, together with that Sig.

Interesting point, I believe my best split times are with a Gen 3 G19 (.13 ish). After being warmed up with the v3, I might get into the .22 range at 7yds to an 8" plate. There are so many factors to consider and for me splits are not the be all end all. I do feel that splits are a viable way to measure one's control on the gun. I will look at splits when evaluating a grip change, or which lateral panels work best. But between platforms its kind of a toss up.

GJM

09-01-2013, 10:41 PM

"
You know, I would probably not pick the LEM as a go to for pure shooting exercises and tests. I tell most that I "shoot" Glocks and 1911's better, and if I still had the hand strength, could probably run a DA/SA better. I won the most important match (for personal reasons) of my life with a P-226 shooting against a majority of Glocks on a course set up by all Glock shooters. With that said, I tell folks that I carry a LEM gun because I think it is the best "street trigger" out there. After all, it is called the "Law Enforcement Module"....you know, for people who manage a lot of people at the end of a gun, including a vast majority that do not need shooting. Now, if it was called the "Uber-Match shooting Module", well then I don't think it would be like a LEM. For what its worth HK can build a killer match trigger.....shoot a tuned Match P9S trigger in S/A and you'll see what I am talking about.

I can answer the "why's" of what is different between the LEM and the others as far as the exact characteristics that are different from the others in regards to "people management" if we want to go that deep.

.

I will bite -- why is the LEM a better "street trigger" than a DA/SA HK, Sig or Beretta?

ToddG

09-01-2013, 10:53 PM

Interesting point, I believe my best split times are with a Gen 3 G19 (.13 ish). After being warmed up with the v3, I might get into the .22 range at 7yds to an 8" plate. There are so many factors to consider and for me splits are not the be all end all. I do feel that splits are a viable way to measure one's control on the gun. I will look at splits when evaluating a grip change, or which lateral panels work best. But between platforms its kind of a toss up.

Probably getting far afield of the OP's original thoughts but FWIW I agree.

Blind splits are a common, easy, but overrated measure of shooting ability. My LEM splits weren't as fast, on wide open stationary targets from a stationary shooting position, as my Glock splits were and certainly not as fast as my 1911 splits. It looks good and sounds cool, but the practical difference between a .18 split and a .23 split isn't something I'd lose sleep over.

Dagga Boy

09-01-2013, 11:10 PM

Probably getting far afield of the OP's original thoughts but FWIW I agree.

Blind splits are a common, easy, but overrated measure of shooting ability. My LEM splits weren't as fast, on wide open stationary targets from a stationary shooting position, as my Glock splits were and certainly not as fast as my 1911 splits. It looks good and sounds cool, but the practical difference between a .18 split and a .23 split isn't something I'd lose sleep over.

Okay, it's confirmed.....you are coming around to my side......;).

GJM, I will type up my thoughts on "street triggers" tomorrow. I think a new thread may be best.

YVK

09-01-2013, 11:48 PM

Yes, I agree on splits, if actual difference is negligible.
I thought of my experiment of nothing more than a data point, an insight into strengths and weaknesses of LEM vs DA/SA in otherwise identical, or nearly identical, guns.

GJM

09-01-2013, 11:52 PM

Blind splits, as into a big target aren't interesting to me either. Split times to small targets like a one inch square, two inch dot, 3x5 or even the six inch inner circle are very interesting -- and a prime measure of my technique, progress, and evaluation of different triggers and platforms.

GJM

09-02-2013, 12:59 AM

GJM, I will type up my thoughts on "street triggers" tomorrow. I think a new thread may be best.

I will look forward to that, whether here or in a new thread. I am particularly interested in:

Why you think you shoot a Glock or DA/SA better than the LEM in pure shooting tests?

Why a DA/SA isn't a better "street" trigger, given the trigger weight and characteristics of the DA trigger versus the LEM? Why once the shooting starts, you wouldn't then prefer a SA trigger for follow-up shots?

Why a DA/SA isn't a preferable appendix pistol, again given the heavier weight of the DA?

Why someone on Team HK, who puts in all that effort working a DA/SA trigger, and obviously shoots it at a high level in USPSA competition, would then carry a different trigger like the LEM, for duty.

JHC

09-02-2013, 07:31 AM

Interesting point, I believe my best split times are with a Gen 3 G19 (.13 ish). After being warmed up with the v3, I might get into the .22 range at 7yds to an 8" plate. There are so many factors to consider and for me splits are not the be all end all. I do feel that splits are a viable way to measure one's control on the gun. I will look at splits when evaluating a grip change, or which lateral panels work best. But between platforms its kind of a toss up.

Holy cow. I can't even think or blink that fast. After decades of shooting for speed rather casually (it now appears in retrospect); in the few years I've used a timer for a lot of training, about .22 is flying for me (with Alphas at 7 yards). And that's all Glock.

ffhounddog

09-02-2013, 09:02 AM

My best split times have been with a M9 off all things. (none of my splits are as good as what has been posted) That is why I went with the P30v3 over the LEM and I could not find a LEM to save my life at the gun stores. Sometimes availability comes into play with what you get. This weekend one of the fastest Glock shooters I have shot with shot faster and more accurate with my P30v3. For me a Good DA trigger of 8.5 pounds or less but smooth with a SA of 4.5-4 pounds is optimal. I still have issues with a Glock with a 3.5 trigger the 4.5 rocket and 5.5 glock triggers are okay for me.

I do agree that triggers are personnel experience and preference. I know two people who prefer the DAK Trigger to all others and run those well. The first time in 4 months I had shot a glock was my Gen4 Glock 23 and my better half's Gen3 G23 RTF2 just to get some trigger time in with them and I shot well for stress shooting. Still shooting what I need to shoot but I do believe that shooting the M9 in most matches due to unit provided equipment has made me more in tune with the DA/SA type action over striker fired but has made the striker fired a better shooter as well due to shooting more.

I care but do not care as much what a shooting team uses because I think most could run any weapon system well when you get to that level. If you are sponsored by HK, Glock, S&W, Sig, Ruger, Beretta, or Taurus I would assume that you would be shooting with what they have provided you and you have the gun set up for you.

I care what the individual carries and if they have modded anything that could be useful to me. Now I agree with Todd on the P30 LEM and Nyeti but for now the P30v3 is what I am using 90% of the time with a P2000sk v3 for the other 10% of the time. I am just too invested in the V3 system and I will be running that for the next few years I hope.

LSP972

09-02-2013, 07:58 PM

I would suggest that PF is populated by a very high percentage of serious* shooters. PF also has an extremely high percentage of ex LEM shooters. These folks haven't put hundreds but rather thousands and tens of thousands of rounds thru an LEM. Consider JV, Josh, Fred M, Tom Jones, and BOM to name just a few staff members now ex LEM shooters.. At AFHS in ABQ, there were three LEM shooters including myself, and most everyone else there was an ex LEM shooter, now shooting a Glock or Sig.

As Todd argues, discount the HK shooting team, as either not knowledgeable about LEM, or shooting DA/SA because it advances some unknown corporate purpose that would trump placing as high as possible. Discount the team member on HK Pro saying DA/SA works better for them in USPSA.

Discount that only one person has ever shot Advanced at Rogers with an LEM.

Discount that like nobody shooting at the higher levels of IDPA and USPSA is using a LEM.

Discount that only one of the 11 FAST coin holders (to my best count) used a LEM, Josh, and that he recently sold his LEM P30.

Make even an anecdotal review of reported results on the DOW reference the LEM. Not sure why, but I can hardly find a person participating with an LEM.

What that basically leaves is Todd loves the LEM, although apparently not enough to trump his infatuation with the 1911, and Ernest Langdon really likes it.

What I hear over and over is "gosh, I love the P30 and LEM, it is just I shoot _______ better."

I am not the trigger police, and folks are free to use whatever they want. There may also be reasons for the LEM regardless of raw performance. It is just for folks pushing their performance, almost inevitably they leave the LEM for something they shoot better.

* shooters that run practical pistols, carried in real holsters, shooting demanding drills, and measuring performance.

I had a detailed reply to this formatted in my head... then I read Darryl's comments, and he pretty much covered it.

You're more interested in "splits", what the big dog competitors are using, and doing well in classes. Okay, fair enough.

My interests lie elsewhere. I rejoice that we can satisfy our separate goals.

And I am well aware of the 'caliber' of the average poster on this forum; that's why I'm here and not on GlockTalk or AR-15.com.

.

hufnagel

09-02-2013, 09:10 PM

what IS with all the WTS of P30's lately anyways. Making my bank account groan, wishing I could give them all a loving home. :cool: (in fact, there's one from a local here I might add to my collection, assuming something else falls through.)

GJM

09-03-2013, 01:08 AM

I had a detailed reply to this formatted in my head... then I read Darryl's comments, and he pretty much covered it.

You're more interested in "splits", what the big dog competitors are using, and doing well in classes. Okay, fair enough.

My interests lie elsewhere. I rejoice that we can satisfy our separate goals.

I would be very interested in what your specific goals are, and why you think the LEM trigger is better than a DA/SA trigger -- whether your goals be self defense, winning in competition, or holding folks at gunpoint? This is the same question I asked DB.

I have formed my opinion based on having shoot well north of 50,000 rounds thru a LEM trigger. I still own more than a dozen LEM pistols between the HK45, 45C, P30, P2000 and SK. Taken a bunch of classes with a LEM, carried one for years, done countless drills with them, and shot the LEM twice for all or part of the Rogers School (providing me good benchmark data compared to the M&P, Sig and Glock). I also used a LEM to stop a moose charge at less than five yards, avoiding serious injury or worse.

My argument is simply DA/SA can be shot better than the LEM, while also being "safer" than a LEM as the DA trigger is substantially heavier than the LEM trigger -- which is a benefit for appendix carry, gives you the opportunity to be more aggressive on your draw with less chance of breaking an early shot early by virtue of the heavier but linear trigger press, and certainly must give you more margin if you like to point guns at people.

Putting my money where my mouth is, I bought a P30 V3 just today. While I clearly shoot a Sig 226 DA/SA better than a LEM, I plan to see whether I can also shoot a P30 DA/SA better than the P30 LEM.

ToddG

09-03-2013, 02:06 AM

(to GJM)You're more interested in "splits", what the big dog competitors are using, and doing well in classes. Okay, fair enough.

I can absolutely vouch for GJM that he isn't just interested in classes and splits. He expends more time, money, and effort into training than even most of the folks here at PF, and as we've all agreed, PF is a collection of outliers to begin with. He's been to two of my classes (and countless others from highly respected instructors I know) and I don't think anyone would mistake him for a gamer or anything less than someone directly focused on personal defense.

I mean seriously, the dude went all ECQC with a moose for heaven's sake. :cool:

I would be very interested in what your specific goals are, and why you think the LEM trigger is better than a DA/SA trigger -- whether your goals be self defense, winning in competition, or holding folks at gunpoint? This is the same question I asked DB.

What is the LEM? It's DA/SA with an SA-weight first shot. I'm genuinely confused as to how anyone would say that 10#/5# is easier than 5#/5#.

My argument is simply DA/SA can be shot better than the LEM, while also being "safer" than a LEM as the DA trigger is substantially heavier than the LEM trigger -- which is a benefit for appendix carry, gives you the opportunity to be more aggressive on your draw with less chance of breaking an early shot early by virtue of the heavier but linear trigger press, and certainly must give you more margin if you like to point guns at people.

Re: safety, pre-Glock the FBI did a pretty comprehensive study proving that the length of the trigger pull was more important than the weight of the trigger pull when it comes to preventing unintended discharges.

Basically, if you're exerting force on a short-movement trigger unconsciously under stress, odds are you'll exert more than enough force to break the shot before your brain catches up to the resistance your finger is feeling against the trigger. But even if a long-movement trigger is lighter, you have more time to register the movement because you have to move it a greater distance. Think of it like this: you don't really notice the difference between lifting a penny and a quarter, but you'd definitely notice the difference between moving either of them 1" versus 4".

Dagga Boy

09-03-2013, 06:57 AM

I am slaving away at the novel.......should be done today. Then we can REALLY have a P-F pissing contest;).

LSP972

09-03-2013, 07:27 AM

I would be very interested in what your specific goals are, and why you think the LEM trigger is better than a DA/SA trigger -- .

Certainly.

Its real simple. Time and experience have shown me that a "point'n'pull" system- i.e., one that requires nothing to manipulate except the trigger- makes the most sense for a defensive handgun. Both the LEM and "traditional" DA/SA satisfy that requirement. I have a lot more than 50K rounds through the DA/SA; less than half of that through various LEMs.

I find the LEM better because you aren't shifting gears- from a DA pull to a SA pull- in the middle of shooting for your life. Plus, no need to remember to decock. Yes, all of that can be learned; I taught hundreds of folks the system, and our training program produced a half-dozen gunfight winners while I was running it. But I'll repeat what I stated earlier... all that is fine and good, but the LEM simplifies things... and under duress, simpler is better. Period.

If it hasn't become clear yet, my "goals" are winning a lethal force encounter, should I find myself in one. I've done quite a bit of competing, between PPC, IPSC, IDPA, and NRA Conventional Pistol. Competition is fine, but most of those venues have one or more serious shortcomings when applied to reality. IPSC/USPSA for instance, produces some marvelously proficient run'n'gunners; who, many times, charge willy-nilly right into the middle/crossfire of a target "array" without the first thought of cover (or getting shot in the back).

Again... I am NOT criticizing these games/saying they are useless. But c'mon... you know as well as I do that the majority of the guns and gear used there have no place on the street in a normal civilian CCW scenario. In fact, IIRC IDPA was created to address this... yet became an equipment game too.

Anyway... there is my take on it. I understand the emphasis you and others put on the pure shooting aspect of it. You're striving to improve, and that's always laudable. But _I_ think some of you are putting a bit TOO much emphasis on that aspect; because it is only one part of the whole self-defense equation.

.

LSP972

09-03-2013, 07:35 AM

I can absolutely vouch for GJM that he isn't just interested in classes and splits. He expends more time, money, and effort into training than even most of the folks here at PF, and as we've all agreed, PF is a collection of outliers to begin with. He's been to two of my classes (and countless others from highly respected instructors I know) and I don't think anyone would mistake him for a gamer or anything less than someone directly focused on personal defense.

Well, I didn't mean to imply that he was a "gamer". I do, however (and I think you do too) feel that he is putting too much emphasis on the hardware aspect.

.

joshs

09-03-2013, 08:23 AM

To be fair to the LEM, I'm not an ex-LEM shooter as much as I'm an ex-HK shooter. It just turned out that I suck, and HK hates me.

On the choice of DA/SA for competition, since most USPSA CoFs are 20+ rounds, having one DA shot in exchange for a sightly "crisper" slightly lighter single action for the rest of the shots is likely a good trade off. I think it is also important to note that most competition shooters do not use a TDA gun in what many consider to be the "correct" way. I've never seen anyone decock in the middle of a CoF, this obviously goes against the "decock whenever the gun comes back to ready" method that most instructors (including those that work for manufacturers of TDA guns) teach.

ffhounddog

09-03-2013, 08:28 AM

I feel that many of the "good" shooters can shoot anything well. Myself I know I am trying to find the better mousetrap. I can shoot any rifle well, but pistol trying to keep up with the shooters here I am mostly in the lower tier. Now I can run a Sig P228 or M9 and be better than the novice pistol shooter that I am in terms of shooting it but that is because of training and hit where I am shooting, The 1911 on the other hand I am all over the place.

I think when you get to the skills of many of the top shooters on this website .01 seconds come into play. If I was a shooter and shot a Glock 17 faster than a P30 LEM by .11 seconds and that would put me into the top 5 verse the top 15 of shooters at a competition I would rock the Glock if I had the skill to do it. If I shot better with the LEM P30 vice the Glock 17 then I would run that.

There are more reasons than anyone could say why someone does XYZ or sales off XYZ.

Everyone has a reason why they run thier equipment one way verse another, I am just greatful that there is a place I can read and learn everyone's reason for running their equipment.

LSP972

09-03-2013, 08:29 AM

On the choice of DA/SA for competition, since most USPSA CoFs are 20+ rounds, having one DA shot in exchange for a sightly "crisper" slightly lighter single action for the rest of the shots is likely a good trade off.

That makes a ton of sense; something I hadn't thought of.

And you're spot on re the "never decock until the stage is done". Again, a different mind-set...

.

ffhounddog

09-03-2013, 08:36 AM

JodyH

09-03-2013, 09:04 AM

I am slaving away at the novel.......should be done today. Then we can REALLY have a P-F pissing contest;).
Nice

CCT125US

09-03-2013, 09:43 AM

I am slaving away at the novel.......should be done today. Then we can REALLY have a P-F pissing contest;).

But we have been playing so well together..........

Tamara

09-03-2013, 09:45 AM

But we have been playing so well together..........

There are people being wrong on the internet here?

JohnN

09-03-2013, 09:59 AM

BONJOUR!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 4

PPGMD

09-03-2013, 10:12 AM

If it hasn't become clear yet, my "goals" are winning a lethal force encounter, should I find myself in one. I've done quite a bit of competing, between PPC, IPSC, IDPA, and NRA Conventional Pistol. Competition is fine, but most of those venues have one or more serious shortcomings when applied to reality. IPSC/USPSA for instance, produces some marvelously proficient run'n'gunners; who, many times, charge willy-nilly right into the middle/crossfire of a target "array" without the first thought of cover (or getting shot in the back).

Again... I am NOT criticizing these games/saying they are useless. But c'mon... you know as well as I do that the majority of the guns and gear used there have no place on the street in a normal civilian CCW scenario. In fact, IIRC IDPA was created to address this... yet became an equipment game too.

To paraphrase Caleb (since his site was hacked finding the exact quote would be hit or miss):

If someone can't tell the difference between competitive shooting and defensive shooting, they probably shouldn't be involved in either.

The key thing that competiive shooting stresses is the abillity to make decisions with a gun in your hand. Yes I crossed out of cover but I made that descision because it was in my stage plan. If they are shooting back my plan will be totally different. The people are best at competition shooting have the gun running part down that all they have to think about is moving through the stage and reacting to mistakes. Which is a skill that would be important to defensive shooters if you look at the number of mistake of fact shootings that police commit.

Now as far as equipment, if it is practical, and gamers are all over it like white on rice that is what people in the police business call a clue. If there wasn't some elements of an equipment race we would still be shooting 1911s with those crappy fixed sights out of pancake holsters.

gtmtnbiker98

09-03-2013, 10:17 AM

To paraphrase Caleb (since his site was hacked finding the exact quote would be hit or miss):

If someone can't tell the difference between competitive shooting and defensive shooting, they probably shouldn't be involved in either.

The key thing that competiive shooting stresses is the abillity to make decisions with a gun in your hand. Yes I crossed out of cover but I made that descision because it was in my stage plan. If they are shooting back my plan will be totally different. The people are best at competition shooting have the gun running part down that all they have to think about is moving through the stage and reacting to mistakes. Which is a skill that would be important to defensive shooters if you look at the number of mistake of fact shootings that police commit.

Now as far as equipment, if it is practical, and gamers are all over it like white on rice that is what people in the police business call a clue. If there wasn't some elements of an equipment race we would still be shooting 1911s with those crappy fixed sights out of pancake holsters.Well said.

ToddG

09-03-2013, 10:25 AM

If there's going to be a "competition vs reality" discussion it should probably get broken off to a separate thread...

GJM

09-03-2013, 10:34 AM

When I was learning to shoot the Sig, SLG told me not to view the DA first shot as something negative, but rather something positive. He said that he would almost rather make a low prob shot DA. Bill Rogers told me he had never missed target one on his range DA ever, which is amazing how many rounds he has shot at target one DA over the years. While the HK LEM trigger is lighter than DA, I actually prefer the trigger characteristics of DA for the first shot. DA while heavier, is very linear in weight throughout the travel, which is easier for me to be aggressive with on the draw, and easier for me to shoot one hand at speed on an initial shot. Conversely, I find the LEM harder to shoot one hand at speed on multiple shots because there is so much trigger travel, compared to shots with a SA, I end up with a lot of sympathetic movement in my other fingers. Todd and I may disagree on this point -- I think an HK P30 SA trigger is easier to shoot than the LEM trigger, as there is less take up to manage if you flip and press.

While splits to open targets are not very interesting to me, either as a training goal or a way to evaluate platforms, time to the first shot and splits to low prob targets are of major interest. If you look at the study Todd referenced in a recent PT post, in about 990 out of 1100 studied incidents, the person had LESS than 2.0 seconds to react and solve the problem. My take from the large sample studied, is we may have less time than we think to solve a problem. This is certainly the case defending yourself around animals, given how much faster they are than humans. Now that pursuit of performance needs to be balanced with practicality -- so if for example, if I was faster with a 2 pound 1911 carried safety off, or a 2.5 pound competition Glock trigger, that wouldn't be an acceptable solution for me.

I accept that DA/SA may be harder to learn than a single trigger like the LEM, but I am willing to put in that effort, as I enjoy shooting. Of course if ease to learn was the primary goal, a Glock is a heck of a lot easier to learn than either DA/SA or LEM.

While I am very confident in the Sig DA/SA comparison to the LEM, what I don't know is how this will translate to the P30 DA/SA. That is why I bought the V3 -- to find out.

I have no problem with others having LEM triggers, especially at a course or match. They are pretty safe, making LEM people less likely to shoot them themselves or me. Since it takes more than average knowledge and appreciation for the details of shooting to even choose a LEM, they get style points. Finally, absent someone like Langdon Tactical, who can probably max perform a Hi Point, the LEM makes it harder for a shooter to perform to their ultimate potential, if you care about competition. :)

TCinVA

09-03-2013, 10:45 AM

the LEM makes it harder for a shooter to perform to their ultimate potential, if you care about competition. :)

That is, of course, going to depend on the shooter.

Some things just work better for some people than other things...and even then, some things may perform better at a specific set of functions than others. I can shoot a Glock slightly faster than my P30 with the LEM, but I tend to push shots left when going flat out with a Glock where I don't with the P30. In my hand the LEM equipped P30 is better at delivering bullets exactly where I want them.

At a certain point individuality has to come into play based on experimentation and experience. I consistently shoot the P30 equipped with the LEM better than any other handgun I own. (There are times when I'm better with, say, a Glock but not consistently so) Plus it's as low maintenance as any machine can be and it won't blow a hole in my femoral artery. So I'm pretty pleased to stick with it as my go-to.

We can be guided by the experience of others, but ultimately we have to test it to see if it works for us.

Chris Rhines

09-03-2013, 11:11 AM

If there's going to be a "competition vs reality" discussion it should probably get broken off to a separate thread...

Preferably on a separate board. Maybe one in North Korea...

GJM

09-03-2013, 11:19 AM

At a certain point individuality has to come into play based on experimentation and experience. I consistently shoot the P30 equipped with the LEM better than any other handgun I own. (There are times when I'm better with, say, a Glock but not consistently so) Plus it's as low maintenance as any machine can be and it won't blow a hole in my femoral artery. So I'm pretty pleased to stick with it as my go-to.

We can be guided by the experience of others, but ultimately we have to test it to see if it works for us.

My last statement was obviously intended to get a rise out of some, hence the smiley.

I am not for a moment suggesting you should switch, but my curious side wonders if you put the same amount if time into shooting a DA/SA P30 as your LEM, how your performance would vary, if at all?

For many of us, DA/SA was seen as an inferior system, and we went right to LEM without ever considering ir testing DA/SA. Based on my Sig experience, I have rethought that, and that is why I am going to test V3, and see if I get the same results with the P30 in DA/SA as I get with the Sig.

TCinVA

09-03-2013, 11:25 AM

I cut my shooting teeth on a Beretta 92FS...which I still prefer to any other DA/SA pistol I've ever tried. I've never really gotten along well with Sigs and S&W's just don't handle as good for me.

As a concept I'm not opposed to any trigger system. I'm completely agnostic. In execution, I find that the typical H&K double action trigger available on samples that I've handled kind of suck. If I could have an H&K DA trigger that is as good as the DA trigger on my Langdon Tactical Technologies customized Beretta 92, I'm sure I could use it very well. Consistently better than I can use my LEM-equipped P30? Probably not without some significant practice and rounds downrange.

...the same amount of which would probably lead to improvement with the LEM, too. So...

For me, I think it's kind of a wash. Others may find a genuine improvement.

Preferably on a separate board. Maybe one in North Korea...

Post of the day.

CCT125US

09-03-2013, 11:49 AM

When I was learning to shoot the Sig, SLG told me not to view the DA first shot as something negative, but rather something positive. He said that he would almost rather make a low prob shot DA. Bill Rogers told me he had never missed target one on his range DA ever, which is amazing how many rounds he has shot at target one DA over the years. While the HK LEM trigger is lighter than DA, I actually prefer the trigger characteristics of DA for the first shot. DA while heavier, is very linear in weight throughout the travel, which is easier for me to be aggressive with on the draw, and easier for me to shoot one hand at speed on an initial shot.

I accept that DA/SA may be harder to learn than a single trigger like the LEM, but I am willing to put in that effort, as I enjoy shooting. Of course if ease to learn was the primary goal, a Glock is a heck of a lot easier to learn than either DA/SA or LEM.

:)

Since the thread is so far off track and in the weeds burning, here goes..........

Making sure gun is unloaded...........

P30 v3 (measurements taken from the rear of the trigger to the point on the frame directly above the mag release cutout)
DA:
Trigger at rest .620
Slack out (this equals 1lb 4oz of take up weight) .515

SA:
Trigger at rest .405
SA slack out .162

reset length .345 (pin trigger to rear, cycle slide, release trigger to audible and tactile reset)

remaining gap between trigger rear and frame behind trigger when pinned: .080 this actually changes the previous measurements as this is the true rear "wall" of travel.
this makes the actual pull length from reset on the v3 .265 Not sure how this compares to the LEM, but I remember there being a tactile / audible reset, and then needing to further release the trigger so as not to short stroke. (could be very wrong on this point though, please correct if need be)

I bring this up to agree with GJM in that I like the constant linear pull of the DA shot, and then when I am on the trigger, I have roughly a 1/4" of travel for follow ups.

ToddG

09-03-2013, 12:06 PM

I measured the reset of my (stock) P30 LEM at 0.235".

The LEM does not need to move past the felt reset point to be fired again.

The LEM is just a DA/SA gun with a pre-cocked internal hammer. So while the external hammer moves back and forth like a DAO gun for show & tell, internally the gun (and trigger) are almost identical to the normal SA stroke. The first shot is identical to the DA stroke except it's a lot lighter with less resistance before the break point. After that, it really is basically the same as the followup shots from a DA/SA version.

The main difference is that if you do let the trigger farther forward than necessary during the reset it will keep going all the way to the DA position rather than stopping at the SA position. It's always been my suspicion that a lot of folks who dislike the LEM do so in part because they let the minor pressure from the trigger drive their finger farther forward than it needs to, which not only means a longer reset but more unfamiliar light-but-long pretravel.

LSP972

09-03-2013, 12:09 PM

I accept that DA/SA may be harder to learn than a single trigger like the LEM, but I am willing to put in that effort, as I enjoy shooting.

And that is what separates you from the other 95% of people who are "into" pistol shooting... you know the difference, and more importantly, what to do about it.

.

GJM

09-03-2013, 12:19 PM

ToddG

09-03-2013, 12:28 PM

I flip and press, with my trigger finger hitting or almost hitting the inside of the trigger guard. How do you avoid the amount of travel of the LEM if you flip and press?

You cannot. As I said, if you move your finger past the necessary point, the trigger will keep moving with you a lot farther than a DA/SA one would. That's not the way I shoot so it's never been an issue for me. (it's also not the way the Rogers school used to teach flip & press, but now they do and personally I think it's less effective)

LSP972

09-03-2013, 12:29 PM

The key thing that competiive shooting stresses is the abillity to make decisions with a gun in your hand. Yes I crossed out of cover but I made that descision because it was in my stage plan. If they are shooting back my plan will be totally different. The people are best at competition shooting have the gun running part down that all they have to think about is moving through the stage and reacting to mistakes. Which is a skill that would be important to defensive shooters if you look at the number of mistake of fact shootings that police commit.

Now as far as equipment, if it is practical, and gamers are all over it like white on rice that is what people in the police business call a clue. If there wasn't some elements of an equipment race we would still be shooting 1911s with those crappy fixed sights out of pancake holsters.

I understand- and recognize- all of that. The key words are in the first sentence of your last paragraph: "...if it is practical..."

What I'm talking about are the guys who shoot Production in IDPA, using a Glock 17, large offset holster, and large double magazine pouch, on a "gun belt" worn over their trouser belt, all "concealed" with a shoot-me-first vest... when their normal EDC is a Ruger LCP or KelTec .32.

That, I submit, isn't practical...;)

When I go to one of the local IDPA or USPSA matches, I get soundly thrummed by the "big guns". Their superior shooting skills aside, the difference is I'm using the same gun/gear/clothes that I wear every day. What is sobering is when I get trounced by a guy using HIS every-day-carry arrangement (and is drawing from under a shirt too). Nemesis, thy name is Donnie Miculek. For an old, beat-up possum cop, that guy can shoot...:)

Again, it wasn't my intention to turn this into a competition vs reality debate. But some here seem obsessed with their "split times", and have used what competition shooters are shooting to reinforce their position.

Its all good...

.

LSP972

09-03-2013, 12:36 PM

. It's always been my suspicion that a lot of folks who dislike the LEM do so in part because they let the minor pressure from the trigger drive their finger farther forward than it needs to, which not only means a longer reset but more unfamiliar light-but-long pretravel.

Exactly. It is the same reason why some folks are prone to snatching a trigger- ANY trigger- and complain about the sights "being off". That right there- making the troops understand that once the initial DA shot was gone, you let the trigger go forward until the reset point and then STOP- was one of the cornerstones of getting them up to speed, accuracy-wise. And that applies to anything but a Kahr, a Sig DAK, or a DA revolver, IMO.

What's this "flip and press" business? Never heard of that one.

.

YVK

09-03-2013, 12:43 PM

I can absolutely vouch for GJM that ... I don't think anyone would mistake him for a gamer or anything less than someone directly focused on personal defense.

:D

Other than "G" and "M" standing for "GaMer", nope, my dear friend GJM is not competition oriented a bit. He is not really a competitive person :D :D :D

I measured the reset of my (stock) P30 LEM at 0.235".

Mine is half of that. Oh, wait..

The main difference is that if you do let the trigger farther forward than necessary during the reset it will keep going all the way to the DA

That's a golden point. Not only one can release it too far, there is possibility of shot-to-shot variability. I find this one of two hardest parts of LEM, and that's a primary reason I am interested in those reported reduced pre-travel parts. One does not need to deal with this issue at all running DA/SA, plus SA is generally lighter than LEM.
So, pick your poison in P30, either learn to shoot a suboptimal quality DA shot, or learn to be very actively and precisely involved in resetting the trigger, that's really all to it, IMO.

GJM

09-03-2013, 12:48 PM

You cannot. As I said, if you move your finger past the necessary point, the trigger will keep moving with you a lot farther than a DA/SA one would. That's not the way I shoot so it's never been an issue for me. (it's also not the way the Rogers school used to teach flip & press, but now they do and personally I think it's less effective)

And this is probably why LEM doesn't work for me, and DA/SA does. I shoot enough different handguns, from a DA revolver to whatever semi-auto is my flavor of the moment, that I need to flip and press to avoid short stroking the revolver (that may stop the bear).

I understand- and recognize- all of that. The key words are in the first sentence of your last paragraph: "...if it is practical..."

What I'm talking about are the guys who shoot Production in IDPA, using a Glock 17, large offset holster, and large double magazine pouch, on a "gun belt" worn over their trouser belt, all "concealed" with a shoot-me-first vest... when their normal EDC is a Ruger LCP or KelTec .32.

That, I submit, isn't practical...;)
.

It isn't practical. And the irony is, Origami can't compete in Production with his G34 in a concealed appendix holster, he has to shoot Limited. And, none of us can shoot IDPA with an appendix holster, even though that is what many carry most days.

But some here seem obsessed with their "split times", and have used what competition shooters are shooting to reinforce their position.

I do think it is instructive to observe what competition shooters are doing, since last I checked competitors were doing their best to put lead out as fast and accurately as possible. As long as it is filtered with a healthy does of reality, how is that a bad thing?

If "obsessed with their split times" means times on open targets, it certainly isn't me. If obsessed with split times means measuring all aspects of my shooting from draw to reload to transitions, then that is me. Otherwise how can you figure out where you are, and what impact your training is having, if you don't measure?

Rich

09-03-2013, 12:51 PM

I certainly hope that this isn't the case with the 2 MK 25 pistols I have. I am in the middle of the 2,000 round test and i'm just shy of 700 rds. I have a P30 V3 that I love but I am way more accurate and shoot better with the Sig. So far, I haven't had any (knocks on wood) issues with the 226. Maybe I have been blessed with Wednesday guns.

I'm sure your MK25 will be fine.

I still have some faith in Sig.

Well for the older pistols that haven't changed much. like the P226/MK25 ,220,229,239 with small extractor.

But the newer Dash -1 slide and extractor . M11A1 etc ! count me out until further testing.

LSP972

09-03-2013, 01:00 PM

Otherwise how can you figure out where you are, and what impact your training is having, if you don't measure?

No argument there. But to become annoyed because you suddenly added three hundreths of a second to your second shot when you changed something (which is something I've seen here on this forum), well... that's a bit over-the-top to me. Then again, I don't even own a timer any more, so...

Yeah, I agree that some of the IDPA rules are a bit... restrictive... and don't play well with what some folks are doing. RDS-equipped pistols, for example. In the non-sanctioned matches around here, they don't care. Your score doesn't "count", but you can shoot it to your heart's content. At the one sanctioned match I tried to use it at, they acted like I wanted to burn the flag.

Judging from your posts, you have worked extensively with many different trigger actions. Have you settled on DA/SA as your action of choice, or is it simply the latest in your line of research projects?

.

ToddG

09-03-2013, 01:04 PM

He is not really a competitive person :D :D :D

Now that's funny.

And this is probably why LEM doesn't work for me, and DA/SA does. I shoot enough different handguns, from a DA revolver to whatever semi-auto is my flavor of the moment, that I need to flip and press to avoid short stroking the revolver (that may stop the bear).

I've never had a problem resetting a revo trigger regardless of what gun I've been shooting, mostly because the few revos I've used (and the one I own) all have a very strong reset. But I do agree that in terms of typical semiauto triggers, getting used to a short reset can lead to short stroking a longer-reset gun. I used to see this all the time at SIG: guys who shot a lot of SRT equipped guns would pick up a stock SIG which felt the same in the hand but required a different trigger reset.

I do think it is instructive to observe what competition shooters are doing, since last I checked competitors were doing their best to put lead out as fast and accurately as possible. As long as it is filtered with a healthy does of reality, how is that a bad thing?

I think this is a very important point, with the caveat that "filtered with a healthy dose of reality" means different things to different people. I've heard high-level competitive shooters weave complicated explanations to justify the "street cred" of things like footwork, setups, and multiple target array transitions that just... aren't. It's the gamer equivalent to the Teddy Tactical who says thing like draw speed doesn't matter or "there was never a shot timer in a gun fight!"

GJM

09-03-2013, 01:17 PM

Have you settled on DA/SA as your action of choice, or is it simply the latest in your line of research projects?

That is a very nice way of asking why I have spent so much time screwing around with different platforms.

It is easier to say what I don't like as much right now. LEM because I don't shoot it well enough one hand, and being a dog owner, a Rogers fan, and having observed so many friends with injuries, I feel one hand is very important for me. A 1911, even though that is what I exclusively shot, because I am so used to longer triggers now, that the short trigger screws me up.

Right now I shoot a Glock with a Gadget, but this winter I might spend time again with a DA/SA (either the Sig which I shot last winter/spring or the 92G-SD which I have and is tempting me).

Mostly, I just enjoy shooting -- whatever it is that interests me at the moment. One thing I learned from TLG, is to shoot one platform at a time. Rather than mix platforms at the same time, I shoot one at a time, from at least a few months to a few years. I might be a better shooter if someone took away all my guns besides two G17's and a G22, but I certainly wouldn't be as consistently excited as I am doing it my way. I suspect that is why Todd is shooting a 1911 now instead of a P30 -- the challenge of learning something new.

Rich

09-03-2013, 01:22 PM

ToddG

09-03-2013, 01:24 PM

That is a very nice way of asking why I have spent so much time screwing around with different platforms.

True. People who shoot different guns each year are teh stoopid!

Rich

09-03-2013, 01:36 PM

I'm about ready to shove an AirWeight J frame in each pocket and call it good...

.

Lots of guys do it.

I carry one in my left front pocket and along with my P229 IWB

Before the move to SWFL I like to carry in my coat or jacket pocket.
Lots of things one can do with a 642.

Rich

09-03-2013, 02:02 PM

Again, I have nothing against the DA/SA version (or DA/SA in general) and in fact I think I'm probably one of the most pro-DA instructors out there these days.

I hear that!

You might be the only one.

Just the other day watching trigger time the guy on there said in this day and age there's no need for a SA/DA trigger.

I hear it at the range all the time.

CCT125US

09-03-2013, 02:23 PM

Just the other day watching trigger time the guy on there said in this day and age there's no need for a SA/DA trigger.

I hear it at the range all the time.

Yeah I heard KD say that as well. Maybe sumdoods are not ok with a SFA and a 5.5lb trigger in AIWB . I happen to be one of them. But then again I am not on TV and have never BTDT, oh and I'm not cool.

Rich

09-03-2013, 02:34 PM

That is, of course, going to depend on the shooter.

That's my take as well.

Be it DAO,SAO,DAK,LEM,SA/DA

ffhounddog

09-03-2013, 02:34 PM

I hear that!

You might be the only one.

Just the other day watching trigger time the guy on there said in this day and age there's no need for a SA/DA trigger.

I hear it at the range all the time.

Glad to hear I am not too crazy.

hufnagel

09-03-2013, 07:14 PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again...

I *personally* chose a DA/SA pistol because...
I didn't want a mechanical safety.
I wanted something that gave me a mental and mechanical "are you really sure?" zone during trigger press.
A hammer I visually see (another part of the "are you really sure?" component) and that I can ride while holstering.
because striker fired scares me.

I'm very intrigued by LEM and would love to shoot one, but I can't find anyone locally who has one I can try, nor am I interested in the buy-n-sell aspect.

I recognize that the above is all me and my personal opinions, likes/dislikes and 'phobias.'

LSP972

09-03-2013, 08:58 PM

Lots of things one can do with a 642.

I've carried one sort of J frame or another, as duty back-up and/or off-duty primary/back-up, every day since 1978. I still do, and I'm well into my retirement years.

You should try an AirLite... the three ounces less weight makes a tremendous difference in pocket carry. I would not have believed it had I not tried it. Not fun to shoot, though, even with wadcutters or bunny fart reloads. Wanna bring out your inner masochist? Load that baby with magnums...

Anyway... yeah, I'm big into J frames.

.

Rich

09-04-2013, 08:22 AM

I've carried one sort of J frame or another, as duty back-up and/or off-duty primary/back-up, every day since 1978. I still do, and I'm well into my retirement years.

You should try an AirLite... the three ounces less weight makes a tremendous difference in pocket carry. I would not have believed it had I not tried it. Not fun to shoot, though, even with wadcutters or bunny fart reloads. Wanna bring out your inner masochist? Load that baby with magnums...

Anyway... yeah, I'm big into J frames.

.

I would love a scandium J frame!

I've wanted one for the longest time. maybe next year.

Corse

09-04-2013, 10:18 AM

Since the thread is so far off track and in the weeds burning, here goes..........

Making sure gun is unloaded...........

P30 v3 (measurements taken from the rear of the trigger to the point on the frame directly above the mag release cutout)
DA:
Trigger at rest .620
Slack out (this equals 1lb 4oz of take up weight) .515

SA:
Trigger at rest .405
SA slack out .162

reset length .345 (pin trigger to rear, cycle slide, release trigger to audible and tactile reset)

remaining gap between trigger rear and frame behind trigger when pinned: .080 this actually changes the previous measurements as this is the true rear "wall" of travel.
this makes the actual pull length from reset on the v3 .265 Not sure how this compares to the LEM, but I remember there being a tactile / audible reset, and then needing to further release the trigger so as not to short stroke. (could be very wrong on this point though, please correct if need be)

I bring this up to agree with GJM in that I like the constant linear pull of the DA shot, and then when I am on the trigger, I have roughly a 1/4" of travel for follow ups.

I did measurements on a v3 and lem p30 a while ago and the single action trigger measured the same on the v3 as it did for the lem in both pull and reset.

If I remember right, a usp had the shortest trigger pull/reset of the p30, hk45, p2000sk. It was darn close to a m&p 45 with an apex kit in it (around a hundredth of an inch). A p7m8 was the winner though.