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F-Trooper05
05-07-2011, 12:14 AM
I'm lying in my hotel right now after just finishing TD1 of a three day advanced pistol course. So far the instructor has told us that "all black sights are superior to night sights," and that if he had it his way, "everyone would shoot 1911's." I don't want to give his name out, but he's a former Gunsite instructor with a lot of expirience. He's very "Jeff Cooper" old school, as in we can only shoot in the Weaver stance and we can't use our slide release levers (none of which really bothers me, but I'd prefer it if he gave us a little more freedom to choose what works best for us).

Anyways, I just thought it would be funny to hear what everyone's "worst" or "least useful" gun class has been? feel free to leave out names if you're so inclined.

gringop
05-07-2011, 01:15 AM
My worst class experience was not at a bad class. The instruction was superb. But one of the students that I was grouped with was a passive aggressive little shit that drove me and a third student in our group insane. Somehow we all manged to deliver a comprehensible lecture on trigger control (it was an instructor course) that allowed us to pass and for me to get my instructors cert. Beware of getting grouped with psycho students.

The only other problematic class was a tactical shotgun class where the instructor allowed a discussion to degenerate into an hour long "what if" session.

"Well, what if the bad guy had a knife in one hand and a gun in the other hand but the gun only had 2 bullets but the bullets had Anthrax in the hollow points and he was under 21 feet and..."

To be honest, when I pointed out the complaints I had in the post class QC form, this instructor offered me a free repeat of the class in the next year, which I attended and the class was managed very well with no BS "what if" discussions.

So, I don't have any really bad instructor stories but I really like classes that are run tight and the student BS is kept to a minimum. Give me info, give me criticism and keep everything under control.

Gringop

ffhounddog
05-07-2011, 05:14 AM
I had two at a Carbine class that drove me crazy from each end of the spectrum. It was a mix bag of SF, soldiers, Marines, Police, civies, and a navy cop.

First the navy cop kept f'ing up and telling the instructor that the Bushmaster gun and Armscor Ammo he had bought was fine the instructor offered to give him a Colt 6940 or a LWRC to used. Well the gun when miced had a .223 chamber not a 5.56 and the Armscor was 5.56 and he was well really f'ed up. He also was wearing his soft armor on the outside and making life hell on the instructors. He asked me to borrow my flashlight since our truck was closest to his car on the last day because he lost a few mags and said sure. 20 mins later after policing our area he drives out back to florida with my Surefire Z2 combat light that I had for 3 f'ing deployments. Bastard I had to settle on a used C2 when I got home but I love that light. Now since then each class i carry a old maglight AA model in my truck to hand out.

Also we had a Kid from 10th group who has not been operational yet. He was all telling everyone that he was the best shooter there bought his girlfriend who is as stuck up as he is and well the first day it was just "In Group we do the and during Q course we did this for two day" on Day three my buddy Commander 1 battalion 5th Group, his friend a Ops officeer with 7th group decided to wear their ODA hats. Why because they did not say a thing about what they did except that they were in the Army. They helped a lot of shooters there and they were quiet. Well they knew I had deployed with 7th group (yes I have a hat too but i am civil affairs) and told me to toss it on and we went to the last day. Well the last day was more enjoyable and he didnt talk much when he had 3 Officers who had been there and the Marines were about to gang beat his ass. Well the 2 from MARSOC the others were in Awwww. I miss that Gunny reminded me of my First Sargent.

Sorry long winded and all I just wish I could make more courses. I might buy ammo and instead of go to the range take more courses. Sounds like a plan to me.

Jay Cunningham
05-07-2011, 05:27 AM
I think this thread topic has the potential of being quite interesting and informational, but let's all make sure it doesn't devolve into a bashing thread. So far, so good.

Rappahannock
05-07-2011, 09:51 AM
I had a pistol class with a fairly well-known instructor. It turned into a love fest, with a lot of people from an agency who had a lot of classes with this guy. He sat on the tailgate of a truck behind the firing line and yucked it up with them the whole time, leaving the rest of us feeling very much not part of the in group.

There was also a very angry cop in the class whose wife had just left him and was chain-smoking and cursing under his breath the whole time. Very bad juju in the air, and I left after the first day of a two-day course.

I'm sure the instructor was very competent as far as pistol handling, but he was lazy and did not try to level the dynamic of the participants. I would not want to be at a shooting range with the angry cop under any circumstances. It was just all bad.

Tamara
05-07-2011, 10:06 AM
I took a course from a well-known competitive shooter that was just chock full of useful information.

I probably would have learned a lot more if I had paid more attention to sunscreen, as I was hanging on my chinstrap on TD 3 with a pretty amazing case of sunburn. :mad:

VolGrad
05-07-2011, 10:15 AM
I took a 2.5 day "advanced" course last year that had a few students I didn't feel were up to par. One in particular was unsafe enough the instructors made him do some of the drills dry with a blue gun. While that should be commended he shouldn't have been allowed to continue at all. He was NOT at the level he should be and several of us were very scared of getting shot. I honestly almost didn't come back on the last day of class I was that scared. The highlight was during a movement drill on multiple targets he bit the dirt. THANK GOD he allowed the pistol to hit the deck, on purpose or not it was the right thing to do in that particular situation. Yes, I discussed my concern with the instructors during the course and afterward. The head guy finally admitted he shouldn't have allowed him to continue and it wouldn't happen again. The same course had some "AI" which were just former students. They were little more than an extra set of eyes for safety's sake .... good. The problem is they tended to stand behind the firing line and chatter a lot amongst each other and on several occasions I saw them spinning blue guns on their fingers and doing fast draws (also blue guns) against one another. In spite of all this the lead instructor was quite good and I enjoyed his drills. I did learn a lot in the class and made a good friend while there.

I also have the same bad experience as others ... having "that guy" in class. Unfortunately for me, "that guy" appeared in several of the first classes I took. He always had something to "add" to the instructor's directive, always had something he had read to share with the group, blah blah blah. He derailed the class so many times I know we lost prob 15% of our range time just listening to him blather. The worst part, he was NEVER prepared. He was constantly leaving the line to change out gear, re-load mags, swap guns, etc. He drives me crazy. Luckily, I haven't seen him in a while. He's a nice guy but damn I don't want to be in class with him again ... EVER.

Ray Keith
05-07-2011, 07:55 PM
My worst class experience was not at a bad class. The instruction was superb. But one of the students that I was grouped with was a passive aggressive little shit that drove me and a third student in our group insane. Somehow we all manged to deliver a comprehensible lecture on trigger control (it was an instructor course) that allowed us to pass and for me to get my instructors cert. Beware of getting grouped with psycho students.



Wow! This sounds very familiar, so familiar in fact, I'd say I was the 3rd student... If this was in Memphis TN in Feb '10. If this happens to be the same thing, I'll never forget that guy, scary didn't begin to cover it...

YVK
05-07-2011, 08:29 PM
Two-day $550 carbine class with a round count of 340, of which 100 were expended to answer a question "can you rifle shoot 100 rounds without a problem if fired fast". There were other interesting points of wisdom.

LittleLebowski
05-07-2011, 08:40 PM
I'd strongly consider leaving.



I'm lying in my hotel right now after just finishing TD1 of a three day advanced pistol course. So far the instructor has told us that "all black sights are superior to night sights," and that if he had it his way, "everyone would shoot 1911's." I don't want to give his name out, but he's a former Gunsite instructor with a lot of expirience. He's very "Jeff Cooper" old school, as in we can only shoot in the Weaver stance and we can't use our slide release levers (none of which really bothers me, but I'd prefer it if he gave us a little more freedom to choose what works best for us).

Anyways, I just thought it would be funny to hear what everyone's "worst" or "least useful" gun class has been? feel free to leave out names if you're so inclined.

JV_
05-07-2011, 08:47 PM
I'd strongly consider leaving.

I was thinking the same thing.

Wheeler
05-07-2011, 09:32 PM
The first course I ever took that had Hackathorne's Snake drill was a carbine course. The AI was demonstrating the proper muzzle safety and movement and about 5 rounds into the demonstration, his AR has a jam, he safes the long gun, transitions to his secondary, continues the drill, then a double feed on his Grock. As he's trying to clear the double feed, he sweeps the guy ahead of him 3-4 times. The instructor calls stop, says something to the effect of "Dude, you've got way too much going on, step off the line, clear your kit and come back." all done in a very calm manner.

I think I'm the only person other than the instructor that saw the sweeps. It scared me coming from a controlled "Is the line ready?" type enviroment but at the same time I was impressed with how quickly the instructor stopped him and handled the situation.

willowofwisp
05-07-2011, 10:31 PM
I'm lying in my hotel right now after just finishing TD1 of a three day advanced pistol course. So far the instructor has told us that "all black sights are superior to night sights," and that if he had it his way, "everyone would shoot 1911's." I don't want to give his name out, but he's a former Gunsite instructor with a lot of expirience. He's very "Jeff Cooper" old school, as in we can only shoot in the Weaver stance and we can't use our slide release levers (none of which really bothers me, but I'd prefer it if he gave us a little more freedom to choose what works best for us).

Anyways, I just thought it would be funny to hear what everyone's "worst" or "least useful" gun class has been? feel free to leave out names if you're so inclined.

I'd probably tell the guy its 2011 and not 1975....I have met a few local club members who have this old way of thinking..one of them laughed at me yesterday because i was practicing shooting on the move...and then he asked why i was doing COM shots instead of just a single head shot...kept bringing up Jeff Cooper and the black tuesday thing..honestly i don't care about what happened back then or what Jeff Cooper did or said..my goal is to put as many rounds as quickly and effectively as I can into a threat.

JodyH
05-07-2011, 10:49 PM
I was in a course taught by a well known tactical instructor.
He had no AI and there was probably 30 people on the line at one time.
For two days I didn't receive any individual feedback and the two guys next to me were borderline safety hazards (and didn't speak any English).
Even with electronic ear-pro I missed about half of what the instructor was saying because he was 100' away at the other end of the line.
I also found his material to be rather dated.

gringop
05-08-2011, 01:31 PM
Wow! This sounds very familiar, so familiar in fact, I'd say I was the 3rd student... If this was in Memphis TN in Feb '10. If this happens to be the same thing, I'll never forget that guy, scary didn't begin to cover it...

Yes, it was you, Ray. Nice to hear from you. It's a small world on the top tier of shooting forums.

The other student looked like Hanibal Lector and acted like a 3rd grader. "Why are you shouting at me???" Oh, the memories.

Gringop

Prdator
05-08-2011, 05:53 PM
Yes, it was you, Ray. Nice to hear from you. It's a small world on the top tier of shooting forums.

The other student looked like Hanibal Lector and acted like a 3rd grader. "Why are you shouting at me???" Oh, the memories.

Gringop



That 3 day class will get the best or Worst out of students....... If you cant pass it you've really done something!!!!!



Some of my worst times have been with a local guy that does some AI for a trainer that I help as well. We were in a class from a very well known trainer ( one of the best minds in the biz) the continued whining about not doing well or someone else doing bad drove me and a good bud NUTS.. If I thought he could have handled it I'd asked him if he needed me to get a "feminine hygiene product"

Ed L
05-08-2011, 09:21 PM
I was in a course taught by a well known tactical instructor.
He had no AI and there was probably 30 people on the line at one time.
For two days I didn't receive any individual feedback and the two guys next to me were borderline safety hazards (and didn't speak any English).
Even with electronic ear-pro I missed about half of what the instructor was saying because he was 100' away at the other end of the line.
I also found his material to be rather dated.

Was this the class where one of the Englishly challenged failed to drop into the sacred position SUL to scan behind him and wound up sweeping the line?

I was in that class.

My worst was in a different class with a local instructor. He followed the philosophy of trying to cram as much as possible into a level 1 carbine class. The range had some railroad ties or whatever you call them made into rooms. So the instructor decided it would be good to have the students do team room clearing drills without each student doing a dry walkthrough first.

One of the instructors also had a wierd shooting technique fro when you were walking down a hall with a longarm right handed and a target suddenly appeared to your right like in a doorway (that you just walked by without clearing). It involved spinning the gun around so while facing straight ahead the muzzle of the gun was pointed to your rightwhile your right hand on the pistol grip was by your left arm. Even though this was only for the first shot before you turned to engage the target, it looked like stupidity from Hong Kong cinema. I don't know of anyone who if surprised by a target like that would not turn and face the target to engage it.

Later in the class the instructors were demonstrating movement as a team between empty fuel drums while engaging targets downrange. One instructor was supposed to be watching their back, where the students were standing observing. The instructor forgot to get into their sacred position SUL and wound up pointing his loaded handgun at the class. I was certainly not glad to have been muzzleflashed, but it did confirm my opinion of the instructors.

After taking that class, which was in 2002, I told myself I was through with training classes. Luckily my next class was with Kelly McCann on a magazine assignment. it was a great class and changed my mind about not taking any future classes.

gringop
05-08-2011, 11:58 PM
Another class comes to mind. Same as before, instruction was great, some students were sub-optimal. It was a 2 day Dynamic Tactics class. Shoot, move, communicate, some room clearing, some bounding forward and back, some hostage taker shooting.

I was a CHL carrying, IDPA shooting, middle of the road pistol shooter. The instructor was going over safe muzzle awareness while being out in public (and having drawn your gun). My experience had been practicing at public ranges and IDPA. The instructor, while giving the lecture, was walking through the classroom, going from SUL to Sabrina and back, the muzzle passing 6 inches from student's shoulders and yet never swept anyone in the room. After my butt unclenched, the scales fell from my eyes and I understood. There is no "downrange" in the real world, YOU control the muzzle and YOU decide what a safe direction is.

Of course, later that day, during a bounding back exercise, a student swept the entire group of students watching. He got plenty of feedback from the students and instructors.

And finally, to the student who attended the rifle class with a JP muzzle brake and decided that because she was short, the best thing to do was position herself further back so the brake was lined up with my head, F**k you. Sincerely, truly and from the bottom of my heart, F**k you.

Gringop

VolGrad
05-09-2011, 06:23 AM
There is no "downrange" in the real world......
Sounds like a HACKism, "In the real world there is no firing line.".

Prdator
05-09-2011, 10:12 AM
Another one I'll add, At a well know instructor's "advanced" handgun class I was on the line shooting as soon as I was done and back in Sul He grabbed me and scremed Boy if you get hit on the chin standing like that you'll get knocked on your ass!! He was referring to my "target shooter" stance, you know Square to the target body weight forward with weight on the balls of you feet...... Kinda like a NFL Lineman ( which we had one in class, guy was freaking HUGE!!) the instructor thinks that a bladed stance is the only way to shoot and apparently take a hit to the chin:rolleyes:

I do disagree with him on that but he has lots of good information and is one of the best out there on Mind Set.

turbolag23
05-09-2011, 10:16 AM
Unfortunately for me, "that guy" appeared in several of the first classes I took. He always had something to "add" to the instructor's directive, always had something he had read to share with the group, blah blah blah. He derailed the class so many times I know we lost prob 15% of our range time just listening to him blather.

I had "that guy" in my glock armorers class. he was there to be re certified so he already knew and had seen everything...

ToddG
05-09-2011, 11:25 AM
I've taken so many great classes it is hard to cull through the memories and find the worst of the worst. Some highlights:

SLG and I signed up for an "advanced tactics" class with a well known instructor. The class host warned us that even though I was an experienced shooter and SLG was on a full time tactical team we might not be prepared for the incredibly high level class as all the other students had taken this instructor's entire repertoire already. When we got there, many of the students couldn't zero their carbines. The guy next to me threw his Glock on the dirt multiple times trying to reholster it in his $12 cheapo nylon thigh rig. Things got worse from there.

Rverdi and I were invited to attend a class that was demonstrating a ... let's call it novel ... shooting technique. During the class, the instructor wanted everyone to do sit-ups while disassembling and reassembling their pistols. We went and got a soda during that drill.

At a well known school years ago, the instructors used the El Prez as a test at the beginning and end of class each day. Their version was done on 14x18 steel plates at 7yd. On my first run I shot some crazy fast time that beat the instructor's demonstration by at least a couple of seconds. He got all upset and began explaining that I was doing it wrong because I wasn't watching my sights. I told him I was seeing everything I needed to see to guarantee hits and that if he wanted me to get a more refined sight picture he needed to give me a smaller target. He then proceeded to re-shoot his demo half a dozen times trying to beat my time and either took too long or missed (???) every time.

Kyle Reese
05-09-2011, 11:32 AM
I thought it was perfectly normal to do sit ups while disassembling pistols, no? ;)

LittleLebowski
05-09-2011, 12:06 PM
I thought it was perfectly normal to do sit ups while disassembling pistols, no? ;)

NO! Hanging upside down is cool, though.


I like to hang upside-down blindfolded, then I take my gun apart and put it back together real fast before my nose begins to bleed.

http://i27.tinypic.com/adoy0j.jpg

Tamara
05-09-2011, 12:26 PM
NO! Hanging upside down is cool, though.
That whole picture popped up with one stab at the Page Down key. I think I pulled a muscle laughing.

John Ralston
05-09-2011, 02:51 PM
At a well known school years ago, the instructors used the El Prez as a test at the beginning and end of class each day. Their version was done on 14x18 steel plates at 7yd. On my first run I shot some crazy fast time that beat the instructor's demonstration by at least a couple of seconds. He got all upset and began explaining that I was doing it wrong because I wasn't watching my sights. I told him I was seeing everything I needed to see to guarantee hits and that if he wanted me to get a more refined sight picture he needed to give me a smaller target. He then proceeded to re-shoot his demo half a dozen times trying to beat my time and either took too long or missed (???) every time.

I don't know if that would make it the worst class or not...

Pistol Shooter
05-09-2011, 03:26 PM
Rverdi and I were invited to attend a class that was demonstrating a ... let's call it novel ... shooting technique. During the class, the instructor wanted everyone to do sit-ups while disassembling and reassembling their pistols. We went and got a soda during that drill.[/list]



That is funny stuff!

I think I'd have headed for my car and gotten a soda at home. :D

JodyH
05-09-2011, 04:19 PM
Was this the class where one of the Englishly challenged failed to drop into the sacred position SUL to scan behind him and wound up sweeping the line?

I was in that class.

November 2003, Texas.

Wheeler
05-09-2011, 06:29 PM
Sounds like a HACKism, "In the real world there is no firing line.".

Or perhaps SDH. Regardless they are two of a kind.

Ed L
05-09-2011, 07:36 PM
November 2003, Texas.

Yup. Same class.

Bratch
05-09-2011, 09:31 PM
I can't think of any really bad classes.

I was in one with a well known instructor that was supposed to be an advanced class but had two distinct groups of skill levels, he had to run each end of the line with different par times for drills.

My only other gripes would be weather, been in classes from sub zero wind chills to 115* heat indexes.

SecondsCount
05-09-2011, 10:13 PM
At a well known school years ago, the instructors used the El Prez as a test at the beginning and end of class each day. Their version was done on 14x18 steel plates at 7yd. On my first run I shot some crazy fast time that beat the instructor's demonstration by at least a couple of seconds. He got all upset and began explaining that I was doing it wrong because I wasn't watching my sights. I told him I was seeing everything I needed to see to guarantee hits and that if he wanted me to get a more refined sight picture he needed to give me a smaller target. He then proceeded to re-shoot his demo half a dozen times trying to beat my time and either took too long or missed (???) every time.
I had taken four pistol classes before yours Todd and never had an instructor beat me. I was severely humbled at your class. :cool:

David Pennington
05-15-2011, 09:40 AM
I can honestly say I've never attended a bad class in the private sector. Some of the LE classes left something to be desired but they weren't "bad". Every class I've ever attended has had some teachable moments where I came away with something that I hadn't known before or some minor nuance that helped me out.

I've trained or shot with Randy Cain, SLG, Todd Louis Green, Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, Dave Harrington, Pat Rogers, Bill Rogers, Rob Haught, Tim Lau, Hilton Yam, and I'm sure a few other I can't remember and they each brought something valuable to the table and made the class/session worthwhile. Some of these guys I love like brothers and really get along with personally and some, while our personalities don't match on the buddy-buddy level, I respect as shooters and instructors. A good or a "bad" class depends greatly on how you look at your opportunities.

Frank B
05-15-2011, 12:28 PM
Every class I've ever attended has had some teachable moments where I came away with something that I hadn't known before or some minor nuance that helped me out.

Even thats true, I had three very bad classes with one so called "Shooting Academy" right at the beginning of my shooting. At this time I don´t even had a permission to posess a firearm. During my planning for some training I got aware of one gun school in Germany. After a phone call with the owner I had booked a semiprivate lesson together with my companion. We drove nearly 400 miles to the range, paid for the class, rental guns and ammo. At the range the instructor starts telling us, how good he is and promised us alot of work, if we pass his shooting tests.

We are on the range the whole day and shoot only some fancy drills, some simple drills we passed ond the more avanced drills we missed, not to bad so far.
After the second range trip we took, I asked for the promised work. The answer was simple: You need to pass more drills!. At our last trip I did not pass a drill because I missed the target and asked for some advice. The answer was: You need to come back two times a month and shoot more. Sometimes you get better.
This was the time for me and my companion to leave this academy and never went back.
His intention was not make us better shooters, just get our money and he recommed a JERICHO 941 for duty because he want to sell me one.

beltjones
05-17-2011, 02:37 PM
Apologies if any of you have read these from me before.

1. At a competition-oriented class with a well-known instructor there was a person shooting a commander-length 2011-style 1911 in 9mm. It was a cool gun when it ran, though it only ran a few times. As others will attest, few things slow a class down more than one person who wants to repeat a drill a few times because their gun keeps malfunctioning, and who won't accept a loaner. Oh yeah, during one of the breaks we were discussing gear and pistol choices, and this person made a straight-faced comment about how reliable her gun was.

2. At the first class I ever took, at the end of the first day, the instructor was going to show us dry fire techniques, reload drills, and one-handed manipulation drills. This was to be done in the classroom, and he made it very clear several times that no one was to bring a single round of live ammunition, a single round of dummy ammo, an empty shell casing, etc into the classroom. When we got to the classroom portion, everyone was stopped at the door, and told to go get rid of all of their live ammo. They made it clear that everyone coming in or out until the end of class would be stopped and searched for live ammo. Then we went around the room and verified that everyone's guns and magazines were unloaded. Finally, the instructor stood us on a line, and told us he was going to frisk us and check pockets just to be absolutely sure there wasn't a single live round or loaded magazine anywhere in the room.

Then he robbed us. Just kidding. There was a certain youtuber in the class that day who I wasn't aware of at the time. You can look him up - he's somewhat famous for espousing the importance of the 21 foot rule. Anyway, when it was his turn to be frisked the instructor found a loaded .38 snub nose revolver in an ankle holster. Needless to say the guy didn't come back for the second day of the class.

3. I thought the above would be the worst thing I would ever see in a class, but I was wrong. I took a competition-oriented class a couple of months back with one of the very top practical pistol shooters in the world. It was an advanced level class, and it absolutely took my game to the next level where I feel like I'm on equal footing with the M's and GM's. Anyway, the other guys in the class were really good, and it was great to get to push myself while learning alongside them.

On the second day of the class some guys showed up at the range and inconveniently set up on the bay next to ours. We had been using both bays the day before, and we were about to go ask them to move down when the instructor took one look at them and their crazy "tacticool loadouts," and said, "Don't worry about it. They'll be gone by lunchtime."

I'm not proud of what happened next. We snickered to ourselves about how bad they were at shooting, how dumb they looked in their camo gear, how remedial their drills were, and so on. I personally made a joke about inviting them to lunch so the mall ninjas and the gamers could finally go on a picnic. Anyway, sure enough they were gone by lunchtime, and we once again had use of both bays. The class was structured so that the instructor would work with one or two guys at a time while the other four would go to the side bay and practice individually. Usually this meant three people would take a break and get some water while one person worked on the drill. However, after lunch there were two guys wanting to practice the same drill at the same time, and they agreed that one would stand in front, facing down range, and do the drill "live fire" while the other would stand directly behind him doing the drill dry fire. The result was the guy in front was getting muzzle swept constantly.

I said, "Hey guys, this is a dumb idea. Why not just wait?" "It's no big deal. My gun is unloaded." The one in the back said. These were experienced shooters - one a former Marine and the other a locally well-known IDPA/USPSA shooter. I thought about making a big stink about it, but I left them as-is. The instructor never knew what was going on, though luckily there weren't any accidents. I still feel pretty conflicted as to whether or not I should have done something or just let two adults who should have known better continue to act like idiots. But in any case, I felt really bad about making snide comments about the tactical guys, because even though they had funny gear and couldn't shoot all that well, at least they were safe.

Kyle Reese
05-17-2011, 03:01 PM
I can't think of any really bad classes.

I was in one with a well known instructor that was supposed to be an advanced class but had two distinct groups of skill levels, he had to run each end of the line with different par times for drills.

My only other gripes would be weather, been in classes from sub zero wind chills to 115* heat indexes.

Pretty much the same for me. Those Tiger Swan classes in August in NC are a bit taxing in the heat and humidity.....

Lon
05-19-2011, 10:55 AM
I can honestly say my worst class experience was due to the instructor. My agency sent me to subgun instructor school at a state academy. The instructor was very arrogant and a blowhard. It was all I could do to just sit and listen so I could get thru the class to get my certificate.

It was a five day class and we spent almost a day and a half "learning" about minute of angle and then going out on the range and practicing adjusting out mp5 sights at different distances so that on call outs we could whip out our sight adjustment tools and readjust the zero when we r on perimeter ( his idea not mine).

Then we spent over half a case of ammo in 30 round magazine dumps. The idea being our demonstration of our ability to control our mp5s by keeping the rds in a 3 inch circle.

Let's see, then he had us on the line of an outside range in a lightning storm.

Then we spent a day or so learning how to assemble/disassemble not only our weapons, but all the other weapon systems in the class (not an armorer class).

We NEVER really talked about instruction techniques or diagnosing shooter problems. Nor did we discuss the state qualification course which we were going to b running our guys thru.

All in all it wouldve been a useless waste of my time except I got the certificate. 5 days I'll never get back.

If ur wondering, yes I did let the instructor know of the issues I had with his class. In a two page typed evaluation. I also gave it to my dept brass and they sent it to to the head of the academy (attorney general). Unfortunately, they got voted out the next month.

That was 5 years ago. He's still there and still a arrogant blowhard who thinks he's the greatest thing around. Gotta luv unions.

I've put myself thru other classes from top instructors and had some great experiences, even though some had "those" students in them.

LGChris
05-30-2011, 12:27 AM
Okay, I know I'm a little behind on this one, but I just saw this thread and I've been waiting for an opportune time to share this one...

I took a class a couple of years ago with a local instructor. Overall, it wasn't bad, but the instructor was a bit... quirky. For example, his idea of teaching "combat mindset" was getting us to load up only one or two mags to run drills, and then when we ran dry, he wanted us to keep our guns pointed at the target and scream profanity to "intimidate the threat into compliance".

So that was already kind of awkward, but then a lady in the class was not really comfortable with doing that. He didn't give her a hard time at first, but later tried to talk her into it. She insisted that she could get "mean when she needed to" but the instructor didn't like that answer, and kept arguing with her. It got more awkward. Then the instructor's wife, who was the AI, stepped in and said, "So how are you gonna react when somebody does *this*", and she proceeded to charge toward the student, and shove her against a wall (this was in an indoor range). The student pushed back, and then grabbed the AI by the throat (she was right... she got mean) and the instructor had to "break it up".

We took a break shortly after that and I think they talked it all out and nobody was mad, but it was still supremely uncomfortable for everyone else who had to witness it.

VolGrad
05-30-2011, 07:22 AM
Then the instructor's wife, who was the AI, stepped in and said, "So how are you gonna react when somebody does *this*", and she proceeded to charge toward the student, and shove her against a wall (this was in an indoor range). The student pushed back, and then grabbed the AI by the throat (she was right... she got mean) and the instructor had to "break it up".
So the AI assaulted her? Nice. Really nice. The AI is lucky she wasn't arrested.

As described I'd (being another student observing what happened) probably have left and asked for a partial refund (depending on how much class was over/remaining). It's one thing to get roughed up in the course of a FoF type class. If it was a straight up pistol class and someone did this I would not be a happy camper. If folks would do something like that as an instructor and feel it was acceptable I want no part of them.

One of my buddies was in a class once and was acting as the perp with a blue gun and the instructor OC sprayed him unexpectedly. The buddy later stated had he been holding a real gun he probably would have shot him. The assault was that much of a surprise as no OC was discussed or even shown before the event happened.

willowofwisp
05-30-2011, 09:07 AM
One of my buddies was in a class once and was acting as the perp with a blue gun and the instructor OC sprayed him unexpectedly. The buddy later stated had he been holding a real gun he probably would have shot him. The assault was that much of a surprise as no OC was discussed or even shown before the event happened.

Wow..thats ridiculous..after recovering from the OC spray did he do anything?

SouthNarc
05-30-2011, 10:32 AM
That kind of stuff pisses me off immensely. If the student would have broken the AI's jaw and she was taking her meals through a tube for several weeks she'd think twice about stupid shit like that. This is typically what happens when "shooters" actually think they're fighters.







Okay, I know I'm a little behind on this one, but I just saw this thread and I've been waiting for an opportune time to share this one...

I took a class a couple of years ago with a local instructor. Overall, it wasn't bad, but the instructor was a bit... quirky. For example, his idea of teaching "combat mindset" was getting us to load up only one or two mags to run drills, and then when we ran dry, he wanted us to keep our guns pointed at the target and scream profanity to "intimidate the threat into compliance".

So that was already kind of awkward, but then a lady in the class was not really comfortable with doing that. He didn't give her a hard time at first, but later tried to talk her into it. She insisted that she could get "mean when she needed to" but the instructor didn't like that answer, and kept arguing with her. It got more awkward. Then the instructor's wife, who was the AI, stepped in and said, "So how are you gonna react when somebody does *this*", and she proceeded to charge toward the student, and shove her against a wall (this was in an indoor range). The student pushed back, and then grabbed the AI by the throat (she was right... she got mean) and the instructor had to "break it up".

We took a break shortly after that and I think they talked it all out and nobody was mad, but it was still supremely uncomfortable for everyone else who had to witness it.

VolGrad
05-30-2011, 12:12 PM
Wow..thats ridiculous..after recovering from the OC spray did he do anything?

I don't think he's taken any further classes from the guy. They were sort of buddies (as in the student had taken a number of classes with this instructor previously) so I think they had some stern words and the instructor agreed he was out of line. The instructor was previously pretty active on a local forum we all used to post on and advertised classes, etc. there. He pretty much dropped out off the radar after that event and I'm sure that is one of the major reasons.

Chuck Haggard
05-30-2011, 06:54 PM
That kind of stuff pisses me off immensely. If the student would have broken the AI's jaw and she was taking her meals through a tube for several weeks she'd think twice about stupid shit like that. This is typically what happens when "shooters" actually think they're fighters.


Word

Chuck Haggard
05-30-2011, 07:19 PM
Can we name names? If not, that's cool.


We once hosted a used to be well known course here, was three days of "high risk entry", two days of "tactical pistol" and one day with a GSG 9 Master SGT on basically "this is what the GSG9 does".

The high risk entry class ended up being my team teaching our version of what we do since the "instructor" kept asking us how we handled such-and-such a situation.
On TD3 he failed to show until lunch due to having gotten drunk the night before and waking up at some random fat chick's house, with no idea where he was or how to get back.

The tactical pistol class wasn't, just a bunch of shooting, which is cool, but I can go shooting all by myself, thanks.

The GSG 9 guy was actually very interesting and a really decent instructor.



While at a formally used to be well known course hosted down south, where we drove 17hours to get there, and then blew up doors to gain entry to the target, as part of a high risk entry/hostage rescue course, we had serious safety issues.
The two instructors (30 man class) were decent guys, but in over their heads badly (lead instructor was stuck in South America due to the 9/11 grounding of all flights in and out on CONUS at the time).

One instructor, when asked, told me his team did almost 15 entries a year. I bit my lip and didn't let the air out of his ballon by letting him know my team was averaging over 120 entries and activities a year at that time.

Then this jackass student who claimed to be a Ranger at some point in his life, but was from Tampa at the time, became one walking CF safety violation.

He muzzled people on purpose in the stack with his little Ruger SMG, "because that's how we do it in Tampa". When called on this bullshit he stated that we were all professionals and that we should be able to trust each other, and he also pointed out that we had on body armor so it was no big deal if he ND'd.

I offered to test his theory with his back using my M4, he declined. I then pointed out that professionals adhere to the four rules rather closely. He didn't really have a counter to that one.

The proverbial straw was when he constantly over-penetrated rooms in the shoot house and insisted on engaging targets in his partner's area of responsibility, often throwing full-auto rounds right past the other guy's head.

After he almost shot one of my teammates (we had five guys in the class), and the instructors failed to address the issue even when prompted by us, we made a pact, which I then told Mr. Jackass about.

Basically he was advised that if he kept it up it was inevitable that he would shoot somebody negligently, so we had decided that when he did we would assume he had lost his mind and gone active-shooter, so the closest one or two of our teammates would then shoot him full of holes.
I made sure to again point out he was wearing IIIa armor and we were shooting level III bullets.
He protested loudly, but I insisted this was our position and he'd better keep it in mind. I also pointed out that I was pretty sure that in Mississippi it was a defense in court to be able to claim (said with a Southern drawl) "that feller needed shot"
We saw an immediate change in Jackass' behavior.

LittleLebowski
05-30-2011, 08:29 PM
Let's not name names publicly. Nothing barring private disclosure but this forum is not the place to dish dirt publicly.

ToddG
05-31-2011, 09:27 AM
The trend of getting physical with students in non-contact classes is very troubling to me. Perhaps I'm overly sensitive because I've got more hours on the range as a student than a teacher, but if someone puts his hands on me violently then class is over and a genuine physical interpersonal interaction will ensue. Same goes for an instructor who decides to handle my gear against my wishes, etc.

I don't pay money to attend classes so some ego-deprived instructor can play bully in front of the students. Snarc and I had dinner last year with an instructor who relayed a story about how he had thrown a student's gun down range "to make a point." When I said I'd have punched him in the face, his response was, word for word: "No you wouldn't. People always say that but no one ever really does it." Which told me the instructor is good at prey selection, because yes there are plenty of people who really would. I attended a class years back where Super Dave was a fellow student. Fifty bucks to the first guy who thinks he can throw Dave's personally owned handgun downrange and not get beaten half to death while the rest of the class cheers...

All the warrior mindset chest thumping in the world cannot change the fundamental facts of adult learning, one of which is that students have to trust their instructors. As soon as you take on a confrontational role with a student, that student and many of the others who witness it will tune out. "Tricking" students only makes the instructor feel cool, it never helps the students.

As an example, a friend of mine took a "two man team" class years ago at a middle-tier facility. One final exercise was a force on force test where the student team was placed in the kitchen of the shoot house and told someone was trying to break in through the front door. The students were each given a single magazine for their Sim pistols and they were told the aggressors would be equally limited in terms of firepower.

The first thing my buddy did was barricade the back door to the kitchen. When he did that, an instructor-handler told him it was unnecessary because the back door was out of bounds and not in play during the scenario. My buddy blocked it anyway.

Multiple aggressors come through the front door of the house and head straight for the kitchen. My buddy and his partner lock them up and deny them any chance of getting down the hallway without taking rounds. The aggressors start painting the walls with Sim rounds and my buddy actually saw one of the handlers loading magazines so the aggressors could maintain a nonstop barrage contrary to the firepower limitation they'd been promised. Nonetheless, my buddy and his partner did a good enough job that the aggressors still couldn't make it down the hallway.

Everything gets quiet for a couple of minutes and then sure enough... there is someone trying to come into the kitchen via that back door.

The school tried to play it up as "stress" and "thinking outside the box" and all that crap, but the reality is that they wanted to beat their students and were willing to cheat to do it. If you want a no holds barred scenario, then you cannot tell your students "don't worry about that doorway, the bad guys only have 10 rounds each," etc. because the students then have to take those artificial limits -- the rules you set! -- into account. Changing the rules mid stream isn't "warrior." It's just screwing with your students because your ego is so twisted that you think your students' success somehow reflects badly on you.

JFK
05-31-2011, 10:37 AM
The trend of getting physical with students in non-contact classes is very troubling to me. Perhaps I'm overly sensitive because I've got more hours on the range as a student than a teacher, but if someone puts his hands on me violently then class is over and a genuine physical interpersonal interaction will ensue. Same goes for an instructor who decides to handle my gear against my wishes, etc.

I don't pay money to attend classes so some ego-deprived instructor can play bully in front of the students. Snarc and I had dinner last year with an instructor who relayed a story about how he had thrown a student's gun down range "to make a point." When I said I'd have punched him in the face, his response was, word for word: "No you wouldn't. People always say that but no one ever really does it." Which told me the instructor is good at prey selection, because yes there are plenty of people who really would. I attended a class years back where Super Dave was a fellow student. Fifty bucks to the first guy who thinks he can throw Dave's personally owned handgun downrange and not get beaten half to death while the rest of the class cheers...

All the warrior mindset chest thumping in the world cannot change the fundamental facts of adult learning, one of which is that students have to trust their instructors. As soon as you take on a confrontational role with a student, that student and many of the others who witness it will tune out. "Tricking" students only makes the instructor feel cool, it never helps the students.

As an example, a friend of mine took a "two man team" class years ago at a middle-tier facility. One final exercise was a force on force test where the student team was placed in the kitchen of the shoot house and told someone was trying to break in through the front door. The students were each given a single magazine for their Sim pistols and they were told the aggressors would be equally limited in terms of firepower.

The first thing my buddy did was barricade the back door to the kitchen. When he did that, an instructor-handler told him it was unnecessary because the back door was out of bounds and not in play during the scenario. My buddy blocked it anyway.

Multiple aggressors come through the front door of the house and head straight for the kitchen. My buddy and his partner lock them up and deny them any chance of getting down the hallway without taking rounds. The aggressors start painting the walls with Sim rounds and my buddy actually saw one of the handlers loading magazines so the aggressors could maintain a nonstop barrage contrary to the firepower limitation they'd been promised. Nonetheless, my buddy and his partner did a good enough job that the aggressors still couldn't make it down the hallway.

Everything gets quiet for a couple of minutes and then sure enough... there is someone trying to come into the kitchen via that back door.

The school tried to play it up as "stress" and "thinking outside the box" and all that crap, but the reality is that they wanted to beat their students and were willing to cheat to do it. If you want a no holds barred scenario, then you cannot tell your students "don't worry about that doorway, the bad guys only have 10 rounds each," etc. because the students then have to take those artificial limits -- the rules you set! -- into account. Changing the rules mid stream isn't "warrior." It's just screwing with your students because your ego is so twisted that you think your students' success somehow reflects badly on you.

Not to get off track but when I took your class last year this attitude was exactly what sets you apart from other instructors. Keep it up.

beltjones
05-31-2011, 11:08 AM
The trend of getting physical with students in non-contact classes is very troubling to me. Perhaps I'm overly sensitive because I've got more hours on the range as a student than a teacher, but if someone puts his hands on me violently then class is over and a genuine physical interpersonal interaction will ensue. Same goes for an instructor who decides to handle my gear against my wishes, etc.

I don't pay money to attend classes so some ego-deprived instructor can play bully in front of the students. Snarc and I had dinner last year with an instructor who relayed a story about how he had thrown a student's gun down range "to make a point." When I said I'd have punched him in the face, his response was, word for word: "No you wouldn't. People always say that but no one ever really does it." Which told me the instructor is good at prey selection, because yes there are plenty of people who really would. I attended a class years back where Super Dave was a fellow student. Fifty bucks to the first guy who thinks he can throw Dave's personally owned handgun downrange and not get beaten half to death while the rest of the class cheers...

All the warrior mindset chest thumping in the world cannot change the fundamental facts of adult learning, one of which is that students have to trust their instructors. As soon as you take on a confrontational role with a student, that student and many of the others who witness it will tune out. "Tricking" students only makes the instructor feel cool, it never helps the students.

As an example, a friend of mine took a "two man team" class years ago at a middle-tier facility. One final exercise was a force on force test where the student team was placed in the kitchen of the shoot house and told someone was trying to break in through the front door. The students were each given a single magazine for their Sim pistols and they were told the aggressors would be equally limited in terms of firepower.

The first thing my buddy did was barricade the back door to the kitchen. When he did that, an instructor-handler told him it was unnecessary because the back door was out of bounds and not in play during the scenario. My buddy blocked it anyway.

Multiple aggressors come through the front door of the house and head straight for the kitchen. My buddy and his partner lock them up and deny them any chance of getting down the hallway without taking rounds. The aggressors start painting the walls with Sim rounds and my buddy actually saw one of the handlers loading magazines so the aggressors could maintain a nonstop barrage contrary to the firepower limitation they'd been promised. Nonetheless, my buddy and his partner did a good enough job that the aggressors still couldn't make it down the hallway.

Everything gets quiet for a couple of minutes and then sure enough... there is someone trying to come into the kitchen via that back door.

The school tried to play it up as "stress" and "thinking outside the box" and all that crap, but the reality is that they wanted to beat their students and were willing to cheat to do it. If you want a no holds barred scenario, then you cannot tell your students "don't worry about that doorway, the bad guys only have 10 rounds each," etc. because the students then have to take those artificial limits -- the rules you set! -- into account. Changing the rules mid stream isn't "warrior." It's just screwing with your students because your ego is so twisted that you think your students' success somehow reflects badly on you.

Awesome post.

peterb
05-31-2011, 03:00 PM
The school tried to play it up as "stress" and "thinking outside the box" and all that crap, but the reality is that they wanted to beat their students and were willing to cheat to do it. ... Changing the rules mid stream isn't "warrior." It's just screwing with your students because your ego is so twisted that you think your students' success somehow reflects badly on you.

I've taught other activities I enjoy at the beginner level. When a student keeps progressing and gets better than I am, I'm delighted. Seeing a student improve -- and those "lightbulb moments" -- is its own reward.

Heck, if you don't try to give your students the tools to beat you, you're not doing your job.

John Ralston
05-31-2011, 03:13 PM
I think a lot of instructors are Narcissists - it goes against every fiber of their being to have someone perform better than them.

Then you have guys like ToddG, SLG, SNarc, RVerdi and from my recent experience, Jason Falla (just to name a few) who have only one goal in mind - help the student improve.

Al T.
05-31-2011, 03:59 PM
Tamara called this one several years back. Guys are getting some training (.mil or .PMC) and trying to start up their own training schools with very little exposure to a true teacher (as opposed to an instructor). Youtube is full of these clowns efforts.

I'm also seeing "franchise" efforts with certain instructors. I am very reluctant to train with anyone other than the primary unless there's a financial incentive to do so.

We have two guys locally who are affiliated with a well known instructor. Neither have much background or in-depth knowledge. Both have some NRA courses and the instructors franchise school - that's all. Wouldn't be too bad if the fee per course was low, but it's not. They still charge about $200.00 per day, per student.

Competency of these two is another issue. Read a recent AAR on one of their classes - a shotgun class - and neither knew how to disassemble an 870. While I don't expect a teacher to be a gunsmith when my smoke pole croaks, admitting to a lack of very basic knowledge of one of the iconic firearms in use is (IMHO) bad.

Strongly suspect we'll see more of this in the future. :(

MDS
05-31-2011, 04:04 PM
I think a lot of instructors are Narcissists - it goes against every fiber of their being to have someone perform better than them.

Then you have guys like ToddG, SLG, SNarc, RVerdi and from my recent experience, Jason Falla (just to name a few) who have only one goal in mind - help the student improve.

I slightly disagree - I think this bunch has two goals: to help the student improve, and to continue improving themselves. I strongly suspect that good teachers love teaching as much for what they learn when they teach, as for the joy of watching students learn. A teacher who doesn't think they can learn from their students (whether because of ego or any other reason) won't be as effective as a teacher who does. I haven't spent a lot of time with Todd or the rest, but at the SLG mini-class, I was embarrassed at how gracefully and easily the PTF staff/SMEs took comments from us n00bs. When an experienced individual listens to you talk about your shooting and says something like "Oh, cool, I hadn't thought of it that way," you know he's not full of himself. You know he's listening and thinking and looking for ways he himself can improve, that he's willing to run with interesting ideas even if they come from the mouths of babes. When the interaction is about shooting as opposed to personalities or technical dogma or anything else, the experience can be not only very educational, but also deeply satisfying in terms of the interaction per se.

I'm saving all my days off for two things: paternity leave, and more classes with this kind of instructor.

OBOnTopic: I had a training experience where the instructor had us doing all kinds of esoteric parlor tricks, instead of focusing on fundamentals. We never went further than 5 yards, and still many/most of us couldn't keep hits in the A zone. Instead of addressing that, the instructor pushed us through drills like "pair up one behind the other, guy in front shoots to slide lock, then drops down so guy in back can shoot over his shoulder." And "if you ever need to shoot while you're dropping to your belly, here's the trick - now try it yourselves!" If I'm honest, I'll admit it was kind of fun in a way. But it seemed slightly dangerous to me, and I certainly didn't leave a better shooter, or with any homework to help make me a better shooter. That's just one example of a training session where I was disappointed - there have been a few. And now that I know a little better, I can look back at ones that weren't disappointing at the time, but which would be very disappointing if I took them now...

John Ralston
05-31-2011, 04:44 PM
I agree - I didn't mean to imply that the instructors listed had no desire to improve themselves. They just have no desire to see the student fall short of their potential.

VolGrad
05-31-2011, 05:17 PM
I'll admit it was kind of fun in a way. But it seemed slightly dangerous to me, and I certainly didn't leave a better shooter, or with any homework to help make me a better shooter.
This reason right here is what keeps these clowns in business. Who here won't admit dangerous shit is fun?

I think a lot of novice instructor's use titillating drills to keep student excited, therefore, recommending the instructor to their friends.

Chuck Haggard
05-31-2011, 09:50 PM
When I said I'd have punched him in the face, his response was, word for word: "No you wouldn't. People always say that but no one ever really does it."

I most definitely would have, or introduced him to LVNR since I teach of the side for the folks who are the certifying agency for that system.

Can't make a complaint on me for battery when the class went off the tracks with gun throwing and then a spontaneous DT lesson.

Josh Runkle
06-01-2011, 11:28 AM
I don't pay money to attend classes so some ego-deprived instructor can play bully in front of the students. Snarc and I had dinner last year with an instructor who relayed a story about how he had thrown a student's gun down range "to make a point."

While I agree that taking a student's firearm from them and chucking it down range is absolutely unacceptable, I will relay a brief experience and say that I now believe it is unacceptable only 99% of the time.

I was a 3rd party to this exact thing happening (maybe not the exact same moment or instructor as you described, but extremely similar):

The class was in a "break in the action" between drills, and everyone probably had 1 loaded mag and a few empties, so everyone was holstered but "loaded" and the instructor was explaining changing gears to a new type of drill, new theory, etc...and then we were all going to reload before we started (since a few people were empty, but a few had a mag or half a mag). It was an indoor range, and we were shooting ahead of the firing line, but everyone's ammo is behind the firing line on benched, so these two things couldn't happen at once.

It was not a class for beginners and it was EXTREMELY clear that for safety reasons, no one was to remove a loaded gun from their holster unless they were pointed downrange.

In the middle of the instructor's instructions/directions, a student who was an idiot with a gun, but thought the rules didn't apply to him because he had a doctorate, turns to the instructor, says he wants to tell him something, then pulls his gun out of his holster, without instruction, in front of everyone, and doesn't just flag the instructor with his loaded gun, he proceeds to point it straight at the instructor's chest, and there is no reason to have the gun out at all, let alone flag someone, let alone point a loaded gun directly at someone.

Everyone simultaneously gasped and the shocked instructor reacted, yanked the gun up and away, out of his hand and (he never yelled before or after this incident), yelled: "What the f$#& is the matter with you!!! Why would you pull your loaded gun out of your holster, let alone point it directly at me! A gun can KILL people. And if you can't take that seriously, then maybe you and your gun need to take a time out." He took the students gun apart and chucked the pieces downrange into a pile of brass.

Oddly enough, it was exactly the kick in the pants that that specific student needed. He got his act together, and I was never nervous around him again.

And, being that it was an advanced-level class, the instructor handled it better than I did. I've had students do stupid stuff when they don't know any better, or don't realize what they're doing, and I'm always gracious with them and try to use that as a teachable moment, but, had I been the instructor in that class, being that we're not talking about beginners, I might have beaten him to death with his own gun and asked one of the students to go find a shovel.

Ok, maybe that's a bit much. But, I would have at least kicked him out. Yet, the instructor dis-respecting that guy and his gear actually solved the situation and caused the guy to get his head out of his ass and come up for air. Plus, we got a few great snickers out of it all weekend.

Ed L
06-02-2011, 01:39 PM
I don't pay money to attend classes so some ego-deprived instructor can play bully in front of the students. Snarc and I had dinner last year with an instructor who relayed a story about how he had thrown a student's gun down range "to make a point." When I said I'd have punched him in the face, his response was, word for word: "No you wouldn't. People always say that but no one ever really does it." Which told me the instructor is good at prey selection, because yes there are plenty of people who really would.

Dead on with the comment on prey selection.

Most students see a physical response to the instructor as a last resort. It is not the same as if a stranger were to lay hands on them in the street. They recognize that the instructor is trying to teach, albeit in a very bad, obnoxious manner, don't see it as a threat, so they put up with it.

Off course, the more the instructor gets away with this the bolder they become, and one day they may indeed pick the wrong person.

Chuck Haggard
06-02-2011, 09:48 PM
Oddly enough, it was exactly the kick in the pants that that specific student needed. He got his act together, and I was never nervous around him again.

I still think it was poorly handled. Allowing that student to continue with the course would not have been an option if I was the instructor.

He would have been on what Pat Rogers calls the "NFE" list.


I can see deflecting a gun, or even doing a disarm, if appropriate.

Josh Runkle
06-03-2011, 06:29 AM
I still think it was poorly handled. Allowing that student to continue with the course would not have been an option if I was the instructor.



And, as I posted above, wouldn't be an option in my class either...but it did seem to work in that one situation.

jetfire
06-05-2011, 12:01 PM
I was covering a class for a magazine articled that ended up never getting written, much less published. The class was billed as an advanced skills class, so I showed up with my USPSA Single Stack rig. I spent much of TD1 being told how competition will get you killed "on the street". Everyone else in the class looked like three pages from the Mall Ninja catalog. The rest of TD1 was spent explaining how 1911s were terrible guns that would get you killed "on the street"; as I was the only student running a 1911...you get the picture. I called my editor that night and said "I can't write an article about these people."

Wheeler
06-05-2011, 06:46 PM
You know, I find it amazing that some of the schools and instructors get so focused on gear. I've been to classes where everything from revolvers to Glocks to Sigs to some sort of 1911 showed up on the line and all were well run by their particular driver.

Even more impressive after reading some of these posts is that the instructors(s) were able to work with all the students and the idiosyncracies of their particular platform, holster system, and ammo loadout.

I suppose I was spoiled by the first instructors I took classes from, I sort of thought they all did things that way. :)

Wheeler

LittleLebowski
06-05-2011, 06:47 PM
I was covering a class for a magazine articled that ended up never getting written, much less published. The class was billed as an advanced skills class, so I showed up with my USPSA Single Stack rig. I spent much of TD1 being told how competition will get you killed "on the street". Everyone else in the class looked like three pages from the Mall Ninja catalog. The rest of TD1 was spent explaining how 1911s were terrible guns that would get you killed "on the street"; as I was the only student running a 1911...you get the picture. I called my editor that night and said "I can't write an article about these people."

I have an idea who this was. PM inbound.

TCinVA
06-05-2011, 09:58 PM
Dunno about the "worst", but getting zapped in the stones with a sims round when you've forgotten to put on a cup would probably suck.

Narrowly avoided that fate today.

Jay Cunningham
06-05-2011, 10:05 PM
Dunno about the "worst", but getting zapped in the stones with a sims round when you've forgotten to put on a cup would probably suck.

Narrowly avoided that fate today.

You won't forget the cup in ECQC. ;)

JDM
06-05-2011, 10:46 PM
Dunno about the "worst", but getting zapped in the stones with a sims round when you've forgotten to put on a cup would probably suck.

Narrowly avoided that fate today.

You're like a sig-line factory.

Jay Cunningham
06-05-2011, 10:56 PM
You're like a sig-line factory.

Awesome.

ToddG
06-06-2011, 05:27 PM
I moved the discussion about firearms periodical articles here:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1073-Firearms-Periodical

JDM
06-06-2011, 05:55 PM
My worst class experience was the mandatory AZ CCW class. The instructor was a goof ball and was constantly singling me out when he would ask the class questions. It was two days after my 21st birthday which I'm sure had plenty to do with it, still inappropriate.

Once I had made it clear that I was well versed in both self defense statute, and my weapon, he focused his bullshittery elsewhere.

evanhill
06-07-2011, 12:44 PM
Sometimes "that guy" can be an amusement, and sometimes he can be a danger. We had a guy in a recent class who checked out OK ahead of time (pretty decent IDPA shooter) but ended up not being quite so OK. This was the guy wearing the SEAL Team hat who "got it in Hawaii because he thought it was cool". Even after some gentle comments and offers of other hats to wear, he insisted on wearing his hat. Dude never got the clue. He was just lucky that there were no Navy guys in the class -- just a couple of Army guys. At any rate, a training bro and I picked up on some hints at meal time that this guy probably had a mental condition. Nothing clear cut enough to really bring it up with the instructor, just an intuition. When I mentioned this to my training bro, his response was "yes, and sometimes he can shoot pretty well". A lightbulb went off in my head. I've made it a point to always have at least one weapon in condition 1 handy at public ranges. Hadn't really extended that logic to a training class. Knowing the instructor, he was probably on top of the situation anyway. He did emotionally dominate the student at one point in a face to face, quiet voiced, Army sergeant kind of way. Low key enough that most of the students probably didn't notice. Thinking about it later, that may have been a deliberate and important test of whether or not the guy got to stay.

This kind of brings up an issue. How do instructors share their NFE lists (other than not very well)? My brother hosts classes every year or so and ended up with a guy in class that he later learned had been NFEd by Pat Rogers already. The guy hadn't been outed on a board or anything, so how would you know? My brother followed suit and quietly NFEd him from any classes that he hosts, but didn't out the guy in any public way. (there were no incidents other than general jackassery in the classes he was in with us, but he was NFEd on the strength of Pat Rogers' NFE). Within the next year, the guy showed up at a course in Colorado where there was a safety incident and he had to leave the class early. Yet there seemed to be no outing after that either. So, for you instructors, do you see this as a problem and if so what's the solution?

irishshooter
06-07-2011, 02:37 PM
outside of the usual "suspects".......Officer Ego, Johhny Knowitall, Instructor Drill Seargant, etc. as long as i get what i came for its all gravy. the only "bad class experiences" i've had have been safety infraction related.

At a recent Advanced Pistol/FOF course a "retired" Marine firearms instructor, "senior" NRA instructor who had "over 30 years" of instruction under his belt walked over to a group of us talking to the course instructor with his pistol in his hand. we were off the line, pistols holstered in between COF. he proceeded to sweep us all with his pistol, chamber was not displayed as open, not like this wouldve changed anything regardless. we all quickly move out of his general area and the instructor "gestures" and yells to him to holster his weapon and then nearly stuffed it back in this guys holster cause he was too busy arguing that the gun wasnt loaded while telling us we needed to "calm down....i just need to show you something". douche

Al T.
06-07-2011, 05:42 PM
Damn!


i just need to show you something

Hate to say it, but I would have moved from Yellow to Orange and been thinking about showing him the muzzle of my sidearm.

CCW/CWP classes can be very interesting. I've had three here over about a 15 year period. The last one was the worst with the assistant instructor constantly covering the muzzle of a Glock with his left hand.

ranburr
06-14-2011, 01:38 AM
I can honestly say that I have never had a bad instructor. I have had several idiot AIs. One guy was helping teach taking the slack out of your trigger after your initial shots fired. He and most of the class were Glock guys. I never could explain to him that the 1911 I was using had no slack to take up. The other guy was helping out on a night fire and told me that my chosen flashlight technique was unsafe because it would draw fire to my head. He had a mumbled response when I asked him what was a bigger target my head or my torso? I don't think he ever really understood where I was going. The only other issues that I have had have revolved around the one idiot that always seems to get into an advanced class when he should be in a basic course. I try to limit my exposure to these people by always getting on the far end of the firing line. I have been to exactly one class out of dozens that everyone was skilled and safe. That was a SouthNarc course. I don't know if he has a superior screening system or if we just got lucky.

longball
06-14-2011, 08:14 AM
...Can't make a complaint on me for battery when the class went off the tracks with gun throwing and then a spontaneous DT lesson.

Yes! Spontaneous DT demonstrations are an excellent teaching tool for the "prey on the weak to make myself feel good" types. The best part about it is the look they get when they realize they just f***ed up and are now dealing with the consequences.

My worst class experience was the same story I mentioned in the ND thread yesterday. Short version is a guy had a ND and almost shot himself in the foot just seconds after sweeping the whole class with his 9mm Sig.

F-Trooper05
05-27-2012, 03:41 AM
Just finished TD1 of a two day advanced handgun course with an instructor that you've all heard of. There are at lest four students who have obviously not taken any prior handgun classes whatsoever (despite claiming they have). This morning I was shooting like shit (or so I thought). I had the worst looking target in the class, by far. At lunch time, I'd come to find out that the dude on the line next to me had been shooting my target all morning long, not realizing it. Go figure...

I shoud point out that the equipment the individuals in question are using include SERPA holsters, two XDm's (one of which is is causing light strikes like it was a design requirement), a double stack Para DAO of some sort (something I've never seen in my life), and a Wilson Combat 1911 (that's already gone tits up and had to be replaced). Coincidence? You be the judge.

The other advanced shooters and I (or shoud I say: shooters that aren't barely functioning retards) have spent all of TD1 standing around bored out our mind while the instuctor gives 90 percent of his time helping out those who suck.

Talk about a waist of $450. Hopefully tomorrow's better. Wish me luck.

rob_s
05-27-2012, 05:03 AM
I feel your pain. Lately it seems that almost every "advanced" class I take has at least one massive "that guy" that becomes a total time-eater, or multiple minor "that guys" that do the same thing in aggregate.

Here's the thing, simply having taken a class previously really doesn't mean anything. Few in the industry hand out "passing" certificates and instead they hand out certificates of attendance. Several of the sleeve-chewers I've watched struggle recently have many of these certificates.

Tamara
05-27-2012, 09:04 AM
I shoud point out that the equipment the individuals in question are using include SERPA holsters, two XDm's (one of which is is causing light strikes like it was a design requirement), a double stack Para DAO of some sort (something I've never seen in my life), and a Wilson Combat 1911 (that's already gone tits up and had to be replaced). Coincidence? You be the judge.

While it is to be expected that folks will turn up at a Handgun I class with the occasional Bersa Thunder .380 with the tag still dangling from the trigger guard, you've really got to wonder about the mental state of someone who shows up at what is obviously not their first rodeo with a firearm that you know has never digested a full 50-round box of FMJ without a failure of some sort. (And then don't even have a spare.:confused:)

YVK
05-27-2012, 09:50 AM
The other advanced shooters and I (or shoud I say: shooters that aren't barely functioning retards) have spent all of TD1 standing around bored out our mind while the instuctor gives 90 percent of his time helping out those who suck.

Talk about a waist of $450. Hopefully tomorrow's better. Wish me luck.

I would let instructor know, politely. Depending on his response, I might consider disclosing the name.

While we all hope that students would be responsible when signing up, we also know it is a wishful thinking. Ultimately, it is instructor's responsibility at least to try to vet the students, as well as react appropriately in the class. After all, it is his reputation. I've attended several classes that were advertized as "not for beginners" and I guess I was lucky that all but one were appropriately vetted. The one that wasn't was advanced a Magpul carbine class; to give Chris and Mike a full credit, a) it wasn't their fault b) people were removed as early as 45 minutes into it.

F-Trooper05
05-27-2012, 10:01 AM
I would let instructor know, politely. Depending on his response, I might consider disclosing the name.

While we all hope that students would be responsible when signing up, we also know it is a wishful thinking. Ultimately, it is instructor's responsibility at least to try to vet the students, as well as react appropriately in the class. After all, it is his reputation. I've attended several classes that were advertized as "not for beginners" and I guess I was lucky that all but one were appropriately vetted. The one that wasn't was advanced a Magpul carbine class; to give Chris and Mike a full credit, a) it wasn't their fault b) people were removed as early as 45 minutes into it.
We went out for some brews last night and he knows. I'm about to head into TD2 right now. I'll keep you posted.

Prdator
05-27-2012, 10:20 AM
Just finished TD1 of a two day advanced handgun course with an instructor that you've all heard of. There are at lest four students who have obviously not taken any prior handgun classes whatsoever (despite claiming they have). This morning I was shooting like shit (or so I thought). I had the worst looking target in the class, by far. At lunch time, I'd come to find out that the dude on the line next to me had been shooting my target all morning long, not realizing it. Go figure...

I shoud point out that the equipment the individuals in question are using include SERPA holsters, two XDm's (one of which is is causing light strikes like it was a design requirement), a double stack Para DAO of some sort (something I've never seen in my life), and a Wilson Combat 1911 (that's already gone tits up and had to be replaced). Coincidence? You be the judge.

The other advanced shooters and I (or shoud I say: shooters that aren't barely functioning retards) have spent all of TD1 standing around bored out our mind while the instuctor gives 90 percent of his time helping out those who suck.

Talk about a waist of $450. Hopefully tomorrow's better. Wish me luck.



Had the same thing happen with I believe the same instructor. ( NOT his fault at all) Some times the HSLD guys attract the "posers" that really think they know what there doing.

TheRoland
05-27-2012, 12:36 PM
Let's not name names publicly. Nothing barring private disclosure but this forum is not the place to dish dirt publicly.

I totally understand the reluctance to offend anyone, but the widespread reluctance to name (or allow people to name) the instructors involved in bad expirences is a major factor in why the training market is so buyer-beware. If there is a firearm forum where posters 'dish dirt' (which, I think, relaying personal expirences isn't), I haven't found it. Even some of the more lawless gear forums memory-hole negative reviews.

I appreciate that people are nice to each other, and that instructors want to avoid canabalism in a small industry. But it's doing the general shooting public no favors. If I didn't have a bunch of shooting friends to ask, there's basically no way I'd know the totality of opinions of an instructor going into a class.

Just some slightly unrelated thoughts.

TCinVA
05-27-2012, 01:33 PM
To an extent instructors are hostages to the people that show up. If it is a really good crew, they can move fast and do more cool stuff. If a number of people show up that don't have the chops to be there, the class is held back. Short of kicking them out if class (and you want to talk about bad reviews...that'll generate them PDQ) there isn't a whole lot you can do to get rid of them when they show.

Training resumes are also difficult to use as a gauge of where people are because someone can go through hundreds of hours of training and still be dumber than a bag of hammers. I've actually been in an advanced class where somebody threw a round a couple of inches from another students face...and he swore up and down he didn't actually do it to the instructors who saw it happen. He had a good training resume, though...

Everybody likes to think they are advanced. I've had the experience of hearing a small group of students complain that the class they were going through wasn't advanced enough...while these same students were unable to complete basic tasks on demand. If you can't hit a target from prone at 50 yards, you probably shouldn't be worried about learning an Australian Peel...yet they were, and complained that the weren't getting their money's worth. Worth in their mind was about doing stuff that looks cool on YouTube rather than actually developing skill. Some actually make a good living catering to those individuals.

Cowtown44
05-27-2012, 01:38 PM
The all-to-often-experienced 1 hour lunch break. I'm seeing this alot these days. Maybe it's the norm, but it irritates me.

YVK
05-27-2012, 02:34 PM
To an extent instructors are hostages to the people that show up. If it is a really good crew, they can move fast and do more cool stuff. If a number of people show up that don't have the chops to be there, the class is held back. Short of kicking them out if class (and you want to talk about bad reviews...that'll generate them PDQ) there isn't a whole lot you can do to get rid of them when they show.


TC, I think there are ways to safeguard against this, if instructor really wants to. It won't be a foolproof but it can cut down on stuff like that. I think Todd, with his performance requests prior to signing for AFHF and insistence that he won't slow down for those who don't yet belong here, is doing a great job with this. Pre-req for AFHS is another example; in general, prerequisite of taking a basic class from the same outfit, while not popular amongst students, works very well. I am positive that Rogers doesn't slow down his targets for those who can't hit them; that's another way.

Ultimately, it comes down to how much business instructor wants vs. how much he wants to "protect" his advanced class from being diluted.

jwperry
05-27-2012, 07:06 PM
Hmm..worst experience yet was my one and only carbine course. If only I knew then, what I know now..

I wanted to take a course to better understand my newly purchased CMMG AR15 (about 5 years ago) as all my rifle shooting experience had been with either surplus guns, shotguns or hunting rifles. You know, typical redneck affair stuff.
Apparently my 1 day $200 discount/intro-tactical class was supposed to be a way for an Israeli shooting method instructor to take money from his friends. Of the 11 people who came I was that guy who was the outsider. Couple that, I was the only non-.mil/LE/PMC dude there, I had one heck of an introduction before we started. Then I chewed out for showing up and wasting the dude's time as there was no reason for a civilian to ever come to this sort of class, blah blah blah. I was then rode and trashed talked to for the entire morning.
I will say luckily there was a 1 hour lunch break and luckily everyone decided they wanted to go hang out offsite for it. I drove home.
I don't even remember his name but I have seen him at the Orlando Gun Show still handing out business cards for his classes. I almost want to follow him around and protest against people taking them.

I have yet to take a pistol class that I haven't been able to learn from.

Tamara
05-27-2012, 07:12 PM
...a way for an Israeli shooting method instructor...

There's your red flag right there. :o

jwperry
05-27-2012, 07:19 PM
There's your red flag right there. :o

Yeah, at the time I thought all Israeli commandos were the super hotness. Just like I thought every cop could shoot and every 0311/11B was a uber-badass assassin type.

Turns out the internet is for more than just porn and plagiarism, there is useful stuff about firearms/training on here too.

Al T.
05-27-2012, 07:45 PM
Then I chewed out for showing up and wasting the dude's time as there was no reason for a civilian to ever come to this sort of class.

Holy Cow. :mad:

TGS
05-27-2012, 07:55 PM
Holy Cow. :mad:

Yeah, that's pretty outrageous.

LittleLebowski
05-27-2012, 08:12 PM
The "Israeli shooting method" guys almost always make my BS detector go off.

Tamara
05-27-2012, 09:07 PM
Yeah, at the time I thought all Israeli commandos were the super hotness. Just like I thought every cop could shoot and every 0311/11B was a uber-badass assassin type.
Oh, hey, such is life. We all had to learn the hard way... (Or at least I did (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2007/07/politics-plaster-saints.html). :o )

F-Trooper05
05-28-2012, 12:12 AM
Well TD2 is done. Today went a lot smoother, but this morning we were doing some retention drills and running through them dry for a little while. Somehow though, the student who was shooting my target yesterday had an ND during the dry run and scared the piss out of everybody. I'm not sure what the instructor said to the guy, but he didn't shoot anymore for the rest of the day. He was a .mil, and I felt bad for him, but there's no doubt it was for the best.

And in full disclosure, I should mention that when we shot the evaluation test at the end of the day I shot the wrong target on the last string of fire. (in my defense though, we were at the 25 and I was hung over ;) ). Karma's a bitch.

rob_s
05-28-2012, 06:19 AM
TC, I think there are ways to safeguard against this, if instructor really wants to.

Even the worst student pays.

As long as he doesn't actually shoot the instructor, another student, or himself, few will bar him from the class.

Sadmin
05-28-2012, 09:06 AM
Unfortunately, my worst was from a top instructor. We spent too much time chatting about nonsense and he spent too much time bashing gear manufacturers and other schools of thought / practice. It's possible that he gauged the class and decided to not push us as we had a healthy population of nutnfancys. I don't solely put the blame on him, the students should know the instructors requirements and their own abilities. If I can't shoot the instructors standards, I'm not ready to sign up.

Leozinho
05-28-2012, 09:52 AM
I'll go.

Civilian side -- This was years ago at a Scott Warren class. It was billed as a competition class, but his resume did bring out more, ahem, 'tactical' types than competition shooters. Couple of guys signed up their inexperienced wives/girlfriends. But the main problem was that there were just too many people. Class coordinator was a nice guy and I think he just didn't have the heart to tell folks the class was full. Ended up with 22 to 24 people, with a few of them rank beginners. Scott worked his butt off trying to get to all of us individually and provide a little one-on-one instruction, but there just wasn't enough time, especially when some were starting at scratch. I now ask the class size.

Military side -- Too many wasted training days to count. Usually Range Control or logistic issues.

LE side -- Hasn't been too bad. At this point all my training is in house. We have a pretty robust training program that runs smoothly compared to training in the military. Teaching, though, is limited to an instructor standing behind someone (usually females) saying "Stop jerking the trigger." But I'm glad to be given ammo and left alone.

BLR
05-28-2012, 05:12 PM
Worst - a 2 day class in Columbus by a brand name instructor's proxy. This was my first and last bad experience with a class.

What I learned - always phone call all instructors before committing money:
1. If the instructor is overly profane - not worth my time/money and very unprofessional
2. The utterance of this phrase - not worth my time/money
"________s suck" or any derivation of it. Including 1911s, Glocks, AKs, or ARs.
3. If they can't string together a complete sentence, not interested.
4. Anything derogatory about competition is a non start. Gaming is different than competing.
5. Speaking in absolutes is typically a non start
6. Any mention of a bar/pub near the range/hotel is a non start

After that experience, I've only attended 5 day classes. Gunsite and Rogers are the best (one tactical and the other marksmanship, respectively). In my limited experience, 2-3 days is too short of a timef rame to teach anything other than technique based class (such as AFHF).

ToddG
05-29-2012, 09:35 AM
Prerequisites are a lot harder to establish, test, and enforce than you may think. Here's a story that repeats itself a few times a year for me...

I had a student a couple years ago who just sucked, to be candid. He got dragged to the class by a friend. The friend told him not to worry about whether he met the prerequisites listed on the class announcement. The friend said all the right things during the vetting process and nothing raised a red flag.

As the AFHF grads all know, the very first shooting we do in class is to take a test. The test isn't identical to the prereq, but it pretty quickly establishes who can and cannot handle their gun competently. Well, the student in question failed miserably. So I pulled him aside and gave him the canned speech: "You failed to meet the prerequisite skill level. The class doesn't slow down for less experienced shooters. You're not going to get your money's worth. You should rethink wasting your weekend and your ammo. I'm willing to defer your class payment and you can sign up for a class in the future instead. If you choose to stay, all I can do is make sure you're safe because I cannot take the time to teach you the fundamentals that everyone else already knows."

So far, zero students have taken me up on that offer. No one is deterred.

The problem is that I stay true to my promise.


I don't slow class down. The other dozen or so people in class paid for AFHF and have certain expectations about what will be covered. If 11 out of 12 students are capable of driving through the material it would be unfair to make changes that benefit only the weak student.
I don't spend my time trying to pull the trouble student up by his bootstraps. Every student in class paid the same amount of money to be there. That means every student is entitled to an equal amount of my time and attention and help. I cannot stop every drill to address just one particular person's problems.
I expect everyone to handle their pistols safely. Repeated or egregious violations of safety norms will not be tolerated.


For the most part, it's worked fine. Students who get the "you suck" lecture always stay and 95% of them are safe and happy. The ones who aren't get their feelings hurt or complain. That's simply the cost of having and keeping standards.

YVK
05-29-2012, 09:58 AM
Even the worst student pays.

As long as he doesn't actually shoot the instructor, another student, or himself, few will bar him from the class.

As I said, Rob, it all depends on how much instructor wants to protect the rep of his advanced class vs get more students in. Some do bar; I am sure you've heard of NFE list...


Prerequisites are a lot harder to establish, test, and enforce than you may think.

Depends on the class, no? We're talking classes branded as "advanced". While the AFHF isn't for the beginners, it is your "entry level" offering. Your higher-level class has pre-reqs that seem pretty fool-proof to me.

rob_s
05-29-2012, 10:22 AM
That Guy is always going to sneak in one way or another, as Todd says. As an instructor, I typically expect that for any given block I'm going to have 10-20% of the students at a level so low they just aren't keeping up. They can stay and be safe, or be unsafe and leave, but I'm not dumbing things down for them. At the other end there's 20-20% that outpace the instruction. I'm not speeding up just for them either. What I always tried to reach at our drills nights were the 60-80% in the middle. Seemed to work well for us.

As to the NFE list, what that really means is "you pissed Pat off" and often has little to nothing to do with skill level. Even the unsafe that are on it are pretty few.

Jay Cunningham
05-29-2012, 10:39 AM
Having been on both sides now, it's not an easy thing.

Some people are perfectly qualified to be in a certain environment, but for whatever reason fall apart on a prerequisite test or even just have an f'd up day.

Ever had an f'd up day at the range where you just couldn't pull it together?

Some meet all the paper requirements but are a menace in a training environment. Pre-vetting is hard to do. You can pretty much ask for a certain number of hours of training and/or completion of certain known courses from known instructors. You can give a head's up on what your own "shoot cold" test is and try and get the point across that you *really* need to be honest about your ability to perform it.

But trainers also need to try and meet the needs of their paying clients, or they'll go out of business. Ultimately, the litmus test for "throwing a student out of class" IMO should be repeated safety violations or a bad attitude, like disrespect towards the instructor and/or other students.

Many students rise to the occasion and make huge gains in a two or three day timeframe. What if those students had been tossed out on Day 1?

LittleLebowski
05-29-2012, 10:46 AM
I totally understand the reluctance to offend anyone, but the widespread reluctance to name (or allow people to name) the instructors involved in bad experiences is a major factor in why the training market is so buyer-beware. If there is a firearm forum where posters 'dish dirt' (which, I think, relaying personal experiences isn't), I haven't found it. Even some of the more lawless gear forums memory-hole negative reviews.

I appreciate that people are nice to each other, and that instructors want to avoid cannibalism in a small industry. But it's doing the general shooting public no favors. If I didn't have a bunch of shooting friends to ask, there's basically no way I'd know the totality of opinions of an instructor going into a class.

Just some slightly unrelated thoughts.

So, I wasn't ignoring this. Just needed to find time to discuss it with the Staff.

Members here may feel free to "name names" when dealing instruction/class experiences on topics that relate to this community's focus. The Staff will watch the accounts closely with an eye for integrity, a commitment to avoiding "hit pieces" and cross forum/trainer drama.

Please keep in mind that this is NOT the forum to to be less than impersonal, dispassionate, and completely honest about your class/instruction experience. Between the Staff and SMEs, someone on this forum will most likely know the instructor whose teaching is being reviewed.

LHS
05-29-2012, 10:54 AM
I've had a few classes with issues, but by and large, they generally were more positive than negative.

My first CCW course, at a well-known school, was well planned out for the given curriculum, but the skill level ranged from switched on to WTF. There were three kids from Yavapai community college's gunsmithing program who showed up with crap guns in crap rigs, and spent most of the classroom time eagerly asking when it would be OK to legally 'bust a cap in dat ass'. One of them had a crap-brand 1911 (stainless, yo!) in a cheap nylon shoulder rig, so the instructor put him at the far left end of the line to prevent sweeping the other students. He still managed to shoot other people's targets.

There was a jeweler from California (who apparently already had a CA CCW permit, but wanted one for AZ too) shooting a Taurus PT-92 by laying the dust cover on top of his palm, like it was a rifle handgrip. I pointed this out quietly to the instructor, who just shrugged and said "When he blows a finger off, he'll learn."

And the woman whose P232 jammed didn't know what to do with it during the SOM drills, so she just turned around and swept the whole class. Half of us hit the deck, I don't think the other half noticed. The instructor quickly got her pointed downrange again and tried to diagnose the issue. Turns out the gun was completely unlubed. When asked about lubrication, the shooter looked baffled. "You have to oil it?" She had bought the gun the day before the class and had never cleaned, oiled, or shot it before.

All in all, the class had its merits. It went over a lot of the legal aspects of CCW and UoF in AZ. They let us run down a gulley with targets you had to ID as a threat (the mean-looking Palestinian guy just has some peanuts in his hands, but Gramma's pointing her J-frame at you!). We did a night shoot that really opened peoples' eyes about low-light and no-light shooting. I think it cracked open the door to real training for a lot of these folks, illuminating a world they never knew existed. But only for some. The true idiots just went off, oblivious, into the public space after the class. If I had to take away anything it's that I was previously ignorant that truly unsafe people actually paid for training. I had never seen that kind of ignorance in a class that cost hundreds of dollars. But then I realized that, in some people's eyes, this wasn't training to get better, it was training to check off a requirement for the permit.





My first CCW renewal class, at a local gun shop/indoor range, was similar. There was the guy who bragged about having done every course Gunsite had to offer, but declined to do the live-fire portion because he "didn't want to show off". There was an older gentleman I'm pretty sure had some kind of dementia/Alzheimer's, who also (thankfully) decided not to shoot the live-fire. The instructor was obviously demoralized by the continual stream of mediocrity he had to deal with on a daily basis, but once he saw some light in some of the students he seemed to come alive and got into it. We finished off the course with some FATS-style stuff, many of the scenarios were actually pretty slick (if jarred by some technical issues), and the students got a splash of water on some of their Rambo fantasies.



Finally, I took a class from a well-known instructor, and while the instructor was great, several logistical and personnel issues clouded the days. First, the training company through which the instructor was freelancing failed to send targets, tape, pasters, etc as promised. The range operator graciously stepped up and we were up and running in short order. The class was overly large, again because of the company doing the logistics, and the instructor was not pleased with this, especially since it seemed like 1/4 of the class came from a local PMO that could best be described as overfunded mall ninjas. Seriously. These guys showed up in an unmarked panel truck, wearing head-to-toe Crye gear, carrying full-auto 6.8mm braked SBRs, and packing an MP7 and an M249 along with them to a carbine course. They kept to themselves and refused to socialize with the other students, never helped paste or police brass, left M249 belt links all over the range at lunchtime, and went back to the benches to load mags whenever the instructor stopped to articulate on a particular point. Their 'team leader' would hold court at these times, lecturing the team while they stuffed mags. The instructor, to his credit, just ignored the mall ninjas and concentrated on teaching the class, which he did with considerable aplomb.

We finished Day 1 with a night shoot, where the braked SBRs really showed their downside. At that point, the instructor had enough and asked the ninjas why they used compensators. The reply, from one of the only guys on the 'team' with a 5.56mm gun, was "To help manage recoil." The instructor looked at them funny and said "Dudes, it's a ****ing varmint gun! Grow a pair and use some proper stance and you won't have to flashbang the rest of us with those silly things." Then we moved on to the 1-2-3-4-5 drill @ 50 yards, offhand. The ninjas, I kid you not, tried to do it full-auto. When the class was all done, the ninjas packed up and bailed in their team truck, while the rest of the students helped tear down and went out for dinner afterwards.



I guess my experiences have all been positive with regards to instructors, but I'm pretty careful about who I pay money to teach me. My issues have always been with 'that guy' or 'those guys' who have no business at a class. I'm not the world's best shooter, far from it. But I'm safe, reasonably proficient, and know how to listen rather than trying to teach the class I'm paying for. I know my lane and for the most part, stay in it. When people fail to do any of those, it irks me, especially if I'm shelling out hundreds of dollars to learn improved techniques and better myself. If I wanted to deal with that kind of crap, I'd just go to the public range on a weekend.

TCinVA
05-29-2012, 11:09 AM
To add to what LL said, we're not ignoring this but are looking to come up with a cogent position. So consider this a place holder.

Al T.
05-29-2012, 12:35 PM
I would suggest not naming names. Having been through the "wars" on another board, it was quite time consuming as staff.

IMHO, better to list those whom we have had positive experiences with and perhaps why.

BLR
05-29-2012, 12:44 PM
Never write something you wouldn't feel comfortable reading in front of a judge.

rob_s
05-29-2012, 01:11 PM
Many students rise to the occasion and make huge gains in a two or three day timeframe. What if those students had been tossed out on Day 1?

If they did it at the expense of everyone else, I say buh-bye.

Instructors have to be mindful of this. Spending 99% of the time with 5-10% of the students is just wrong.

rob_s
05-29-2012, 01:14 PM
I guess my experiences have all been positive with regards to instructors, but I'm pretty careful about who I pay money to teach me.

Some people, not saying you, are also easily amused and not very critical by nature. I've had two classes where I was in the minority of thinking they were crap, but after asking the other students what they thought and sharing my reasons for my opinion they got disheartened because they realized they had been fooled.

Of course, I've also had at least one class where those not happy were in the majority over those that were by a very wide margin.

LHS
05-29-2012, 02:24 PM
Some people, not saying you, are also easily amused and not very critical by nature. I've had two classes where I was in the minority of thinking they were crap, but after asking the other students what they thought and sharing my reasons for my opinion they got disheartened because they realized they had been fooled.

Of course, I've also had at least one class where those not happy were in the majority over those that were by a very wide margin.

Understood, agreed upon, and no offense taken whatsoever. Other than the two CCW courses I had to take to get and maintain my permit, I've limited my class participation to instructors I've vetted. I've walked away from a few prior to registration once I did some research on the instructors themselves. So far, my list is pretty short, but there are still several on the to-do list. I'd rather have that than waste time/money on someone who's not worth it.

The good thing about the internet is that now you can access thousands of AAR's/reviews of prospective classes. The bad thing about the internet is that a good many of those reviews are from the people you mentioned. I tend to place far more value on the opinions of people I know are switched on when asking about instructor competency.

David Armstrong
05-29-2012, 02:40 PM
I've really only had one bad class, and it was particularly surprising because all the other classes I've had from the same organization were great. It was a Glock Armorer class. Now, I've been an Armorer and a Glock Firearms Instructor since 1993, so I've had a rather regular interaction with them for many renewals and such. This time it was a fairly new member on the staff and it was just horrible. The instructor seemed far more interested in showing off to a few of his friends that were taking the class, almost all his interaction was with them, when other students asked questions they were pretty much brushed off as not worth the time or they were stupid for asking, that sort of stuff. Toss in that he thought it funny to share with us a regular litany of "jokes" that basically involved making fun of minorities, women, or the handicapped and it was just a rather poor experience.

Zhurdan
05-29-2012, 02:47 PM
My "worst class experience" to date was pretty mellow.

It was a one day, 8 hour pistol course. There were a mixture of skill levels there, one bordering on dangerous. I moved down the line a few spots just in case. Unfortunately, that wasn't the "bad part". The instructors (yes, two) wanted to demo a technique for charging your pistol using the rear site off of the heal of your shoe. Ok... I've read about it, I've tried it with a dry gun, but the majority of the people there hadn't even considered it and they wanted us to do so with a hot gun. Myself and one other (who frequents here) decided it was time to not get shot during the drill. We spoke up and the instructor took a few hims and haws and then decided that it was not a good idea to have someone contort their body in a way they are unfamiliar with whilst holding a loaded gun, standing 3-5 feet from another student.

I've stepped away from the line before when something unfamiliar came up for my own safeties sake and for the safety of others, but that was the first time I've flat out refused and pleaded that the drill NOT be done. The instructor was competent at what he'd shown to that point, but even he was having trouble charging the gun while he was demo-ing the drill.

TGS
05-29-2012, 03:02 PM
Man, there's some real horror stories on here. I feel lucky! I've taken 7 classes as a private citizen, and am scheduled for 1 more this year. They've all been great, and I already know the course for later this year is going to be a blast as I've trained with that instructor twice before, and each time my girlfriend said I returned as happy as a 6 year old on Christmas.

Cowtown44
05-29-2012, 03:37 PM
Prerequisites are a lot harder to establish, test, and enforce than you may think. Here's a story that repeats itself a few times a year for me...

I had a student a couple years ago who just sucked, to be candid. He got dragged to the class by a friend. The friend told him not to worry about whether he met the prerequisites listed on the class announcement. The friend said all the right things during the vetting process and nothing raised a red flag.

As the AFHF grads all know, the very first shooting we do in class is to take a test. The test isn't identical to the prereq, but it pretty quickly establishes who can and cannot handle their gun competently. Well, the student in question failed miserably. So I pulled him aside and gave him the canned speech: "You failed to meet the prerequisite skill level. The class doesn't slow down for less experienced shooters. You're not going to get your money's worth. You should rethink wasting your weekend and your ammo. I'm willing to defer your class payment and you can sign up for a class in the future instead. If you choose to stay, all I can do is make sure you're safe because I cannot take the time to teach you the fundamentals that everyone else already knows."

So far, zero students have taken me up on that offer. No one is deterred.

The problem is that I stay true to my promise.


I don't slow class down. The other dozen or so people in class paid for AFHF and have certain expectations about what will be covered. If 11 out of 12 students are capable of driving through the material it would be unfair to make changes that benefit only the weak student.
I don't spend my time trying to pull the trouble student up by his bootstraps. Every student in class paid the same amount of money to be there. That means every student is entitled to an equal amount of my time and attention and help. I cannot stop every drill to address just one particular person's problems.
I expect everyone to handle their pistols safely. Repeated or egregious violations of safety norms will not be tolerated.


For the most part, it's worked fine. Students who get the "you suck" lecture always stay and 95% of them are safe and happy. The ones who aren't get their feelings hurt or complain. That's simply the cost of having and keeping standards.

After declining your offer and proceeding with class, do you find these student being better shooters at the end of TD2?

ToddG
05-29-2012, 05:22 PM
Some yes, some no. When someone is by far the worst guy in class it can be hard to slow down and focus on what the instructor tells him to do. Instead all too often he'll try to keep up with the guy next to him on the line and throw marksmanship out the window.

TheRoland
05-29-2012, 05:28 PM
So, I wasn't ignoring this. Just needed to find time to discuss it with the Staff.

Members here may feel free to "name names" when dealing instruction/class experiences on topics that relate to this community's focus. The Staff will watch the accounts closely with an eye for integrity, a commitment to avoiding "hit pieces" and cross forum/trainer drama.

Please keep in mind that this is NOT the forum to to be less than impersonal, dispassionate, and completely honest about your class/instruction experience. Between the Staff and SMEs, someone on this forum will most likely know the instructor whose teaching is being reviewed.

Thanks for thinking about this. I totally understand the desire to avoid 'hit pieces', general drama, cannibalism, and spawning internet vendettas. But I also think it's possible that the balance may have swung a bit too far in the other direction.

Or maybe not.

Corey
05-30-2012, 04:03 PM
My first CCW course, at a well-known school, was well planned out for the given curriculum, but the skill level ranged from switched on to WTF. There were three kids from Yavapai community college's gunsmithing program who showed up with crap guns in crap rigs, and spent most of the classroom time eagerly asking when it would be OK to legally 'bust a cap in dat ass'. One of them had a crap-brand 1911 (stainless, yo!) in a cheap nylon shoulder rig, so the instructor put him at the far left end of the line to prevent sweeping the other students. He still managed to shoot other people's targets.

There was a jeweler from California (who apparently already had a CA CCW permit, but wanted one for AZ too) shooting a Taurus PT-92 by laying the dust cover on top of his palm, like it was a rifle handgrip. I pointed this out quietly to the instructor, who just shrugged and said "When he blows a finger off, he'll learn."

And the woman whose P232 jammed didn't know what to do with it during the SOM drills, so she just turned around and swept the whole class. Half of us hit the deck, I don't think the other half noticed. The instructor quickly got her pointed downrange again and tried to diagnose the issue. Turns out the gun was completely unlubed. When asked about lubrication, the shooter looked baffled. "You have to oil it?" She had bought the gun the day before the class and had never cleaned, oiled, or shot it before.

All in all, the class had its merits. It went over a lot of the legal aspects of CCW and UoF in AZ. They let us run down a gulley with targets you had to ID as a threat (the mean-looking Palestinian guy just has some peanuts in his hands, but Gramma's pointing her J-frame at you!). We did a night shoot that really opened peoples' eyes about low-light and no-light shooting. I think it cracked open the door to real training for a lot of these folks, illuminating a world they never knew existed. But only for some. The true idiots just went off, oblivious, into the public space after the class. If I had to take away anything it's that I was previously ignorant that truly unsafe people actually paid for training. I had never seen that kind of ignorance in a class that cost hundreds of dollars. But then I realized that, in some people's eyes, this wasn't training to get better, it was training to check off a requirement for the permit.


Careful LHS, I resemble those remarks!:p I went to Yavapai college to learn gunsmithing then worked as a gunsmith and instructor at that same school for 5 years, but that was a long time ago.

The second formal class I ever went to was a “big name” instructor who is still well known but left me unimpressed. The class was well organized and structured, but the instructor was a little too proficient in the use of profanity, including during classroom lecture. It was distracting and unprofessional. I don’t mind an occasional expletive to emphasize a point, but this was a case of dropping f bombs and the like during regular conversation as a space filler.

I have been in a couple of classes with “that guy”, but nothing unsafe occurred, just lots of eye-rolling from everybody whenever he had anything to say.

From the other side of the fence, teaching CCW classes in Arizona when they started their program was very educational for me. At that time the state required a 16 hour class with a marksmanship test, judgemental shooting test (very basic shoot, don’t shoot scenario), and written test. Students ranged from well trained, switched on people just checking the box on their application to first time shooters, sometimes both extremes being represented in the same class. Hardest to deal with were the individuals who believed they were high speed and were just there to check the box, but in reality needed to learn a lot. I had to learn quickly that you can’t teach somebody that doesn’t think they have anything to learn. The best way to handle them was to make sure they stayed safe and work with the people that actually wanted to get their money’s worth.

I only sent a couple of students packing, both for safety issues. One student had been warned several times about watching his muzzle direction (didn’t sweep anybody, but came close while oblivious to what he was doing. The final straw was when he loaded his pistol then remembers his ear pro was around his neck. He kept the pistol in his hand while he tried to put his ear pro on. Fortunately I was standing right behind him at the time and got that problem sorted out and sent him home. That was the scariest moment I have ever had in a class as either student or instructor.

_JD_
05-31-2012, 11:53 PM
My wife and I attended the NRA's Basics of Personal Protection Outside the Home Instructor's Course....


By the end of the first day we left lucky to be alive. Keep in mind, this was an INSTRUCTORS class.

Half the "students" could not safely draw and re-holster. Several used the muzzle of their gun itself to move cover garments out of the way, usually muzzling themselves in the process. One student, a former LEO had a floppy leather holster that wouldn't stay open with the gun out. Between the shoddy holster and his fat rolls obscuring the holster, he would be seriously diffing around his pelvic region and torso with his muzzle.

The "training counselor" instructed all the participants to bring .22s for the class, keep in mind this was post Obama ammo crunch, one candidate went out and bought a Walther P22 specifically for this class. He was primarily a 1911 shooter. Not being familiar with this gun during an exercise where my wife was acting as coach, he kept pulling the trigger and nothing was happening, but as he was on the 2nd relay the targets were all ready shot. My wife informed him that his gun was not firing and he didn't believe her...seriously, this clown had no idea that he wasn't shooting. The safety was on the whole time. At the end of the exercise, he then turned the safety off and went to holster the gun, my wife informed him that the safety was now off...he did not believe her. He removed the gun, removed the magazine and then to prove his point that A: His gun was empty, and B: That his safety was on, dry fired into the dirt...it was the loudest dryfire shot I've ever heard as he ND'd into the ground.


The 2nd day was less eventful other than the retard with the P22 handling his gun behind the firing line not 10 minutes after being told not to....yes, you read that right, he was still in class after the above incident. When asked why he was handling his gun, he said "I have to put it in my holster somehow" he could not grasp the concept of taking a cased firearm to the firing line to gun up...


Of a class of 12 or 16, maybe 6 of us had any business being there.

This whole den of debauchery was reported to the NRA....I won't be dropping any names in the public forum so don't ask.



The kicker of the whole thing? After we finished the class we found out that we didn't have all the proper pre-reqs (when I say we, I mean the ENTIRE CLASS) to get this certification.


it was the biggest cluster I've ever seen, and I've seen some messed up stuff.

shootist26
06-01-2012, 02:19 PM
saw this guy constantly forgot to decock prior to reholstering. The make it worse, he didn't even reholster all the way. He would simply drop his gun into the holster without enough force to actually seat and engage the friction retention (it was a plain kydex range holster). So this douchebag is walking around with a cocked DA/SA pistol halfway out of the holster with the trigger exposed.

Instructor told him about it and his response was "sorry, it's a new holster. This is my first time using it. I didn't even know the gun could go in further"