Week 72: 3x5 Speed Push

[ToddG]

Please read the rules (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1837-Drill-of-the-Week) before participating in this thread.

Week 72: 3x5 Speed Push
results may be posted until 11:59pm EST on Friday 21-June-2013.

by ToddG
Range: 7yd (or other, see below)
Target: 3x5 card
Start position: shooter's choice
Rounds fired: 40

You will need a shot timer for this drill.

This week's exercise is about pushing yourself for speed on a low% target. It will involve hitting a 3x5 card at seven yards. If you cannot consistently hit a 3x5 card at seven yards slow fire, then decrease the distance to one at which you can make 3x5 hits on demand when time is not a factor.

Start position is up to the shooter but should be consistent throughout the drill. The 3x5 card should be placed horizontally (3" tall and 5" wide).

There are two strings of fire:

String 1:
During the first string, your goal is to get 100% hits.

On the beep, fire two rounds at the 3x5; record the time and the number of hits
Repeat for a total of ten runs (20 shots)


String 2:
During the second string, your goal is to push yourself to manipulate the gun faster.

Set a PAR time equal to the fastest clean run you had during String 1.
On the beep, fire two rounds at the 3x5 card trying to get both shots off before the PAR time is up
If you got both hits under the PAR, record your time
If you failed to get both hits under the PAR, record the number of hits you did get (zero or one)


Please report the following when you post your results in this thread:

distance
Start position (ready, open holster, concealed, retention holster)
Best time for string 1
# of hits within the time limit for string 2
Best clean time for string 2


Training with firearms is an inherently dangerous activity. Be sure to follow all safety protocols when using firearms or practicing these drills. These drills are provided for information purposes only. Use at your own risk.

[GJM]

Reading over the instructions, I was kind of puzzled about this drill. Did it anyways, since I have been doing the weekly drills.

Standard, G17, Gideon, Filson vest.

First ten runs, 17/20 hits, fastest run with 100 per cent hits, 2.33. Average of all runs, regardless of hits 2.71, average of runs with 100 per cent hits 2.92.

Second ten runs, 14/20 hits, fastest run with 100 per cent hits 1.94. Average of all runs, regardless of hits 2.17, average of all runs with 100 per cent hits 2.15.

For me, having shot the 3x5 at 7 yards a fair amount, this drill and in particular the first 10 runs, was a poor use of time, ammo, and paper, and because it was so boring, it was counterproductive to improving my skills.

[ToddG]

GJM -- It's hard to assess because you didn't present the info that was asked for in the results, and you didn't go at a 100% hit pace for the first string to begin with.

The idea is to figure out your fastest comfort zone/confident time, then see what happens when you use that as an upper limit. It forces you to go faster than you may ordinarily when left to your own self-set pace.

My results:

SACS/Warren 9mm 1911 in JMCK aiwb under polo
Best time from string 1: 1.83s
Hits for string 2: 14/20 (5 misses, 1 late)
Best clean run string 2: 1.63 (1.30, .33)

My raw times from string 1 with 100% hits: 2.03, 2.01, 2.04, 1.93, 1.88, 1.90, 1.94, 1.83, 1.89, 2.16 seconds.

Second string:
1.72 clean (1.38, .34)
1.78 clean (1.39, .39)
1.71 missed both (1.34, .37)
1.90 one late (1.48, .42)
1.75 one miss (1.37, .38)
1.63 clean (1.30, .33)
1.61 one miss (1.29, .32)
1.67 one miss (1.28, .39)
1.76 clean (1.39, .37)

[GJM]

(I guess I am still confused? What was I supposed to report that I didn't -- I have the time and hits for all 20 runs.) this has been rendered irrelevant by later posts and editing to my previous post, clarifying reporting

Perhaps part of the confusion is the following statement, "During the first string, your goal is to get 100% hits." Does this mean "try to get 100 per cent hits" or "get 100 per cent hits?" For me there is a big difference as one is a bulls eye exercise, but alternatively, shooting slower with just a bit of margin keeps me a tad bit more accuracy at the cost of throwing most of what I have worked to be able to do with a full effort.

[ToddG]

GJM -- If your "fastest" reported each time is the fastest with 100% hits, you're right you reported everything correctly and I just didn't read it that way initially. My mistake.

As for the 100% hits thing, rather than get bogged down in semantics I'll just point out that getting 85% hits is pretty indicative that you were going faster than a reliable 100% hit speed. Nonetheless, the explanation I tried to provide above still stands: The idea is to figure out the speed at which you can comfortably make the hits and then push yourself to make the hits faster than that. Simple.

For what it's worth, the first time we did this drill (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2218-Week-7-3x5-Speed-Push) a couple years ago, folks generally seemed to find it useful which is one of the reasons I picked it for a repeat this week. If it didn't serve a purpose for you, hopefully next week's drill will be more useful to you. We certainly realize that not every person is going to like every drill every week year after year.

[GJM]

Yes, fastest times reported were all with 100 per cent hits.

Sometimes, as designer, you may have an easier time understanding exactly what is to be recorded, and/or reported. It might be helpful to attach to the DOW a "sample report," so all know exactly what data to report and what data to not report.

While I recorded each run and hits as I went, I thought you only wanted the fastest time with hits on series one reported, and then only the fastest time with hits, and total number of hits reported in series 2. Also, I wasn't sure what should be done if every one of the 10 runs in series 1 was not 100 per cent.

Point well taken that every drill will not work for every person. That said, my goal is to continue to improve, and my sense reading this drill was that the first ten runs would be counterproductive, and for me, that turned out to be the case. For example, on last week's DOW series 1 (3 shots to the 3x5 at 7 yards), my 5 clean runs for 3 shots ranged from 2.21-2.50. Today, my first 5 runs of just 2 shots clean ranged from 2.35-3.41. I believe the reason for that is I have two speeds -- precision and full speed. When I miss at "full speed," it isn't because I am going too fast, but rather because I don't properly execute something to do with my draw, sight alignment/focus or trigger manipulation. Trying to slow down from full speed but still go faster than precision, like of the first series of 10 reps today, introduces all sorts of bad habits which I have worked hard to eliminate. Finally, leaving aside that 20 repetitions of almost anything is boring, I question the validity of doing any drill like this 20 times in a row. If for example, I "really came on fire" at runs 17-18, is that useful in either a game or serious sense?

[GJM]

Without turning this into a rambling manifesto, I felt like the first series of 20 shots was negative training, but was interested in the second series. This afternoon, I decided to shoot the second series again, at a natural speed, rather than intentionally fast or slow, dispensing with the first series, to test my theory.

Same as last time, G17, Gideon, Filson vest.

1.82 1/2
1.87 2/2
2.18 2/2
1.88 1/2
1.79 1/2
1.84 2/2
1.95 2/2
1.86 1/2
1.94 1/2
1.82 2/2

15/20 hits
Fastest run with 100 per cent hits 1.82
Average of all runs 1.895
Average of runs with 100 per cent hits 1.93
Average of runs with misses 1.858

This was an improvement over last time, although I am not sure it proves anything other than I like to make the rules, rather than follow them.

[ST911]

gen4 Glock 19, Trij HD, 3:00 OWB concealed under tee shirt
Speer Lawman 147 TMJ (53620)
7yds
Best clean time string 1: 2.8 sec
# of hits within time limit for string 2: 3 runs that were under the 2.8 par and were clean.
Best clean time for string 2: 2.38 sec (the last run)

Shot this last night and really liked it. Establishes a rolling self-defined standard to work against as skill increases. It's time, ammo, and resource efficient, along with being purposeful. I can't speak to its value for those of you shooting at higher levels, but this will be a great drill to use on range days with some of my LE folks.

My raw times were a little disappointing, but it's a continuing effort. My best darn-the-torpedos speed for the card is still slower than GJM's "natural speed." :D
2.9, -1
2.84, -2
2.85, C
3.06, C
2.92, -2
2.6, C
2.64, -1
2.81, C
2.66, C
2.38, C

[GJM]

This afternoon, due to unforeseen circumstances, I ended up with 90 minutes of time to go to the range by myself. Usually, I shoot with my wife, but since I was by myself, I could be totally selfish about exactly what I wanted to do.

I have been reflecting on two things. Origami will be shooting this drill sometime this week, and between being appendix and his blazing speed, will no doubt throw down amazing numbers. The other thing, I believe that Todd intended that the drill be an opportunity to push yourself out of your normal comfort zone. That meant my regular pace was not what was intended.

Same equipment, G17 with a Gadget, Fricke Gideon OWB, Filson vest concealment.

I tried a few reps using my standard modified press out, and didn't think I was going to make a lot of repeatable progress. In the spirit of Origami, I decided to open my mind, and try an index draw. Before I did 2 shots, I figured I better see if I could make one hit to the 3x5. Using an index draw, I did surprisingly well and had the following (for just one shot to the 3x5):

hit 1.28
hit 1.26
hit 1.18
hit 1.25
hit 1.22

Next I decided to go right to series 2 of the drill of the week, 2 shots to the 3x5 (I was having so much fun, I kept going a few more reps):

1.58 2/2
1.62 1/2
1.54 2/2
1.59 1/2
1.50 2/2
1.56 1/2
1.57 2/2
1.53 1/2
1.56 1/2
1.59 1/2
1.38 1/2 (the miss was a pencil eraser amount out, and shot 1 was a hit, at 1.0, even though I was on the trigger a tad early)
1.59 2/2
1.58 2/2

Total 19/26 (73%)
Fastest 100 per cent hits: 1.50
Average time of 100 per cent hits: 1.56
Average time of 1/2 hits: 1.55

Then, to see how this translated into the FASTest, I shot 3:

1) 4.45 -1H
2) 4.47 clean ( first 2 shots were 1.39 and .35, reload was 1.93)
3) 4.58 clean

Then I did other stuff, and finished the session with 2 last FASTests:

4.45 clean
4.47 clean

As it turned out, this was an amazing drill of the week for me, as it got me to really get out of my comfort zone, and shooting head shots at a speed that I have not been able to before, as a similar hit percentage as when I was shooting them +/- .50 slower. I also feel like my ability to hit versus miss is less how fast I shoot than how well I execute my grip/sights/trigger.

[2alpha-down0]

Distance: 7 yards
Start Position: Concealed
Best Time String 1: 2.38
Hits String 2: 15/20
Best Clean String 2: 1.92

String 1:

2.53 C
2.56 C
2.83 C
2.53 C
2.52 C
2.45 C
2.54 C
2.40 -1
2.53 C
2.38 C


String 2:

1.92 C
2.02 -2 (both <1" low)
2.62 -1 (O/T)
2.04 C
2.08 C
2.16 -1
2.14 C
2.12 -1
2.19 C
1.98 C


M&P9 in a JMCK AIWB

[PumpGunGuy]

For those who are feeling inferior, gaze upon my results, and rejoice!

Gen4 G19
Keepers Concealment Holster
Reloads (where do you find factory?)

7 yards, 3x5 card

First string 20/20
Worst string 7.75 (seconds, but it seemed like days)
Best string 5.09

Second string 19/20
Worst string 4.84
Best string clean 3.76
Fastest string 3.31 but I missed 1

I think I was overly cautious with the first string because you were not allowed to miss. I easily stayed within par time on the second string, but I'm still S L O W.

Lessons learned. I need to work on my draw (dry fire), and my press out (dry fire), and my commitment to pull the trigger and stay with the sights (not look at the target to see if I got a hit (live fire at last)).

There, do you feel better? I do.

[Mr_White]

Basic Report:


distance: 7 yds
Start position: concealed
Best time for string 1: 1.64
# of hits within the time limit for string 2: 17/20
Best clean time for string 2: 1.29


Extended Report:

I had a big master plan to compare subtle draw variations for string 2, shooting it a bunch of times with each variation and pushing harder and harder, but the plan went straight to hell after I started getting slide bite on the humpy callus on the web of my strong hand and it hurt and bled a little every time I fired. That really messed up my shooting…I was able to get a ways into the progression before that happened. Basically, I worked the whole time just drawing without trying to make the gun follow a specific path. So, not the muzzle-level pressout. It was probably an intermingling of the J-draw/micro-pressout and the direct position 3 to final position draw – which are both rather close to each other.



String 1:

1.19, .52 = 1.71c
1.27, .53 = 1.80c
1.25, .49 = 1.74c
1.24, .46 = 1.70c
1.24, .48 = 1.72c
1.22, .49 = 1.71c
1.25, .48 = 1.73c
1.25, .49 = 1.74c
1.16, .48 = 1.64c
1.31, .50 = 1.81c

20/20, 100% hits, made the goal, yay me.

Avg. 1st shot: 1.23 seconds, 100% hits
Avg. 2nd shot: .49 seconds, 100% hits
Avg. total: 1.73 seconds, 100% hits (must have rounded a digit off somewhere.)
Best time for string 1: 1.64



String 2, PAR set at 1.64:

1.04, .28 = 1.32c
1.06, .30 = 1.36c
1.02, .27 = 1.29c
1.00, .27 (miss) = 1.27 -1 (eye sprinted after first shot)
1.04, .34 = 1.38c
1.07, .38 = 1.45c
1.11, .34 (miss) = 1.45 -1 (eye sprinted after first shot)
1.04, .37 (miss) = 1.41 -1 (jerked trigger)
1.05, .35 = 1.40c
1.13, .38 = 1.51c

17/20, 85% hits, all within time.

Avg. 1st shot: 1.05 seconds, 100% hits
Avg. 2nd shot: .33 seconds, 70% hits
Avg. total: 1.38 seconds, 85% hits
Best clean time for string 2: 1.29



String 3, PAR set at 1.29, the slide bite started somewhere in the first few reps of string 3 and got a little worse with every shot : (

.96, .22 (miss) = 1.18 -1
.99 (miss), .22 = 1.21 -1
.99 (miss), .24 = 1.23 -1
.96 (miss), .24 (miss) = 1.20 -2
1.02, .22 = 1.24c
.95 (miss), .21 (miss) = 1.16 -2
.97, .22 = 1.19c
.98, .23 (miss) = 1.21 -1
1.00, .24 (miss) = 1.24 -1
.96, .27 (miss) = 1.23 -1

10/20, 50% hits, all within time, most misses low in the head box, a couple in the forehead.

Avg. 1st shot: .98 seconds, 50% hits
Avg. 2nd shot: .23 seconds, 50% hits
Avg. total: 1.21 seconds, 50% hits
Best clean time for string 3: 1.19



String 4, PAR set at 1.19 (Bad intention/madman/attack!!! run):

.87 (miss), .20 = 1.07 -1
.86 (miss), .19 (miss) = 1.05 -2
.89, .20 (miss) = 1.09 -1
.88 (miss), .22 (miss) = 1.10 -2
.87 (miss), .21 (miss) = 1.08 -2
.97 (miss), .30 (miss) = 1.27 -2 and one overtime, slide bite pissing me off more and more
.92, .22 = 1.14c
.96 (miss), .23 (miss) = 1.19 -2
Aborted the drill, continuing was pointless, constant slide bite was way too distracting.

4/16, 25% hits, one overtime shot (missed anyway), misses primarily low in the head box, a few in the forehead, a few in the upper C zone of the body, and a few complete misses that didn’t hit any part of the target. Slide bite was really irritating and very distracting from the shooting, but obviously the wheels were coming off at this point even without the slide bite.

Avg. 1st shot: .90 seconds, 25% hits
Avg. 2nd shot: .22 seconds, 25% hits
Avg. total: 1.12 seconds, 25% hits
Best clean time for string 4: 1.14



Shot one FAST with my last six shots, trying to refocus, regroup, and ignore the distracting pain:

3.78: 1.09, .33 / 1.71 / .21, .24, .20

Reloads have been neglected and could use some work again.

I was disappointed with how the wheels came off at the really high speeds. Slide biting me didn’t help, but obviously I’m just not there yet. I refuse to believe it cannot be done though.

[Mickey]

H&K P30 9mm from ready position

7 Yards

Best time for string one 1.82

Number of hits within time limit String two 15/20

Best clean time for string two 1.66