since you are not in the army, why would your 223 have ball ammo in it?

[gunkid]

Take a 60 gr Nosler Partition softpoint thru your thigh, obliquely, thru 11" of muscle, and see how much walkiing you feel like doing! :-) You are going to see about a 3/4" diamter wound path, not 4mm. :-) By the way, many such minimal wounds were seen caused by the Ak and by 06, 308, 7.7Jap and 8x57, too. That's just the inefficiency of ball ammo as a type.

[Jay Cunningham]

Unsure if you're trolling but 5.56x45mm FMJ that is built to M193 or M855 spec does not punch an icepick-like hole through soft tissue.

Dr. Roberts can explain the wounding mechanism better than anyone else on this forum.

[gunkid]

right here on this site. I've never seen any reason to risk the potential failure to stop caused by ball ammo and just always carried good softpoint loads. Why is asking good questions considered "trolling", hmm?

[BaiHu]

You're coming off like a troll because you joined today, dropped a question that has been thoroughly dealt with before and you need to go back and use the search function or take your troll cudgel elsewhere.

Lastly, a legit post doesn't troll back to admin-look under Jay's name.

[Byron]

Take a 60 gr Nosler Partition softpoint thru your thigh, obliquely, thru 11" of muscle, and see how much walkiing you feel like doing! :-) You are going to see about a 3/4" diamter wound path, not 4mm. :-) By the way, many such minimal wounds were seen caused by the Ak and by 06, 308, 7.7Jap and 8x57, too. That's just the inefficiency of ball ammo as a type.

http://byrong.com/misc/thumbs_what_the_f_am_i_reading.jpg

[Sparks2112]

right here on this site. I've never seen any reason to risk the potential failure to stop caused by ball ammo and just always carried good softpoint loads. Why is asking good questions considered "trolling", hmm?

Well, your question seemed rhetorical, and slightly combative, to me at least. But, I'll take a shot at it.

I don't think anyone here would argue that there aren't better rounds that exist for the .223/5.56 than 55 or 62gr FMJ. Here are some reasons people might choose to load FMJ in their rifle.

They like practicing with what they carry, and don't have the budget to spend on ammunition that's $1.25 a round.

At the distances you would typically encounter as a civilian shooter in a defensive gun use, FMJ out of a 16" barrel is more likely to upset than not, once again not ideal, but certainly not into the ice-pick wound track territory that people attribute to an "ineffective" 5.56 round.

They are of the opinion that a rifle loaded with sub-optimal ammunition will still perform leaps and bounds above a pistol loaded with state of the art ammunition, and don't worry about it that much.

I've got TSX loaded in my social magazines. After having had the opportunity to speak with some people who at close range shoot a lot of extremely violent, determined, well armed individuals on a very regular basis, I've come to the conclusion that I worried about stuff like that a bit too much. I like having the whiz-bang stuff, and choose it whenever possible, but I'm not nearly as concerned as I use to be.

[TGS]

right here on this site. I've never seen any reason to risk the potential failure to stop caused by ball ammo and just always carried good softpoint loads. Why is asking good questions considered "trolling", hmm?

Because you didn't actually post a question. You made an argumentative post answering "someone," as if someone was already in conversation with you. It comes off quite strange. Awkward turtle.

As for anyone who's entertaining his argument, he is taking it almost straight from DocGKR (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4343-5-56-mm-55-gr-M193-Terminal-Performance-Thoughts), in turn referencing Martin Fackler.

ETA: In addition, DocGKR's NDIA presentation covers the ice-pick wounding mechanism of M193 and M855 in carbines quite well: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf



I don't think anyone here would argue that there are better rounds that exist for the .223/5.56 than 55 or 62gr FMJ.

Typo? :) Because I'm pretty sure everyone, including DocGKR, would argue there are better rounds than M193 and M855.

[Sparks2112]

Because you didn't actually post a question. You made an argumentative post answering "someone," as if someone was already in conversation with you. It comes off quite strange. Awkward turtle.

As for anyone who's entertaining his argument, he is taking it almost straight from DocGKR (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4343-5-56-mm-55-gr-M193-Terminal-Performance-Thoughts), in turn referencing Martin Fackler.

ETA: In addition, DocGKR's NDIA presentation covers the ice-pick wounding mechanism of M193 and M855 in carbines quite well: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf



Typo? :) Because I'm pretty sure everyone, including DocGKR, would argue there are better rounds than M193 and M855.

Stupid typo. Aren't

[JMS]

Spare us from all the theorists that seem to deliberately ignore mundane, practical matters.

"Because practicing with stuff other than ball ammo is freakin' expensive when you're the one paying for it, doofus."

http://imageshack.us/a/img638/5853/wellbye1.jpg

[Al T.]

I see Melvin's out of jail again.

[Kyle Reese]

The troll is gone, folks.

Carry on.

:)

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Pretty awesome that legendary gun forum idiot actually made an appearance here, though.

Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk 2

[S Jenks]

I was going to say, "Gunkid? Why does that sound so familiar..."

Guess jail didn't help him that much.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Funny because most people who go to prison repeatedly really come out better human beings with real perspective on their past mistakes after the third stint.

That's why we always hear how they were just turning their lives around.




Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk 2

[Joe in PNG]

Wow, a visit from a true firearms world celeberty! Though, he's a celeberty in that "One True King of Gunshop Commandos and Mall Ninja Idiots" kind of way. I wonder if he's still pushing the Tactical Wheelbarrow?

[JV_]

He trained Sheepdog 24/7.

[Kyle Reese]

He trained Sheepdog 24/7.

Don't insult SD 24/7....:D

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

[SeriousStudent]

I see Melvin's out of jail again.

I guess I am not going to be able to sell these debarked Chihuahua's to him, now that he's gone. <insert sad face here>

I was actually present for Melvin 1.0. It was like watching the world's most bizarre train wreck.

[DanH]

I wonder if he notches his keyboard every time he gets banned from a forum...

[Byron]

Does the staff actually have information pointing to this user (formerly registered as diddly) being the real gunkid, or was the post-ban name change done as humorous commentary?

I ask solely so I know whether to start freeing up reading time. After all, if he's really posting out there in the wild again, I'm going to need a lot of time to keep track of all the news stories that will unfold this time.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4 Beta

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I guess I am not going to be able to sell these debarked Chihuahua's to him, now that he's gone. <insert sad face here>

I was actually present for Melvin 1.0. It was like watching the world's most bizarre train wreck.

1.0...what forum would that have been? I remember him on frugal squirrel.

Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk 2

[TCinVA]

Does the staff actually have information pointing to this user (formerly registered as diddly) being the real gunkid, or was the post-ban name change done as humorous commentary?

I ask solely so I know whether to start freeing up reading time. After all, if he's really posting out there in the wild again, I'm going to need a lot of time to keep track of all the news stories that will unfold this time.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4 Beta

We don't have a DNA match, but we're relatively sure.

[ToddG]

The troll is gone, folks.

http://i.imgur.com/of3pVNV.gif

[Chris Rhines]

Does the staff actually have information pointing to this user (formerly registered as diddly) being the real gunkid, or was the post-ban name change done as humorous commentary?

I ask solely so I know whether to start freeing up reading time. After all, if he's really posting out there in the wild again, I'm going to need a lot of time to keep track of all the news stories that will unfold this time.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4 Beta

That's JMD. Absolutely no question. The writing style is impossible to fake without inflicting profound brain damage.

[mnealtx]

I guess I am not going to be able to sell these debarked Chihuahua's to him, now that he's gone. <insert sad face here>

I was actually present for Melvin 1.0. It was like watching the world's most bizarre train wreck.

Weird times, weird times.... ;P

[Chuck Haggard]

I might be practicing, that might be a reason I have ball ammo in my carbine. I might have shot up all my duty grade ammo in a Mumbai/Beslan scenario and I have gotten into my stash of ball ammo due to necessity (yes, far fetched, but there is still a can of ammo in the back of my cop car....).


I note that for some uses I know a few very serious and experienced guys who think 55gr ball is a good choice. Randy Watt would be an example.



Then, there are zombies. Since it's all head shots-all the time, ball ammo is fine.

[Sparks2112]

http://i.imgur.com/of3pVNV.gif

I literally just spent 2 or 3 minutes watching this over and over again laughing every time. Thanks!

[Chuck Haggard]

I literally just spent 2 or 3 minutes watching this over and over again laughing every time. Thanks!

As long as you weren't thinking "I wonder if he's going to make it this time" you're good.

[Sparks2112]

As long as you weren't thinking "I wonder if he's going to make it this time" you're good.

No, but after I replied I spent another couple minutes looking at it in my quote, chuckling each time. :-/

[Byron]

We don't have a DNA match, but we're relatively sure.
Fascinating!

[Josh Runkle]

We spent a lot of time in paramedic school covering the effects of velocity on wound cavitation, and to be honest, it was pretty eye opening for me as an already "gun guy". I've been a big advocate of these 69, 75, 77, 79 gr rounds BTHP, etc...but I actually had a pretty pitiful understanding of the damage from the pressure wave of high-velocity rounds, and how it can do more damage than the round itself. I'm definitely rethinking 55 and 62gr ball.

[Chuck Haggard]

No, but after I replied I spent another couple minutes looking at it in my quote, chuckling each time. :-/

Me too.

[DocGKR]

joshrunkle35: What specific damage from a "pressure wave" are you describing? Terminology can be confusing; just so we are on the same page syntax wise, you might wish to read: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4328-Basic-Wound-Ballistic-Terminal-Performance-Facts. You might also wish to watch a reasonably good presentation done in 2011 by Dr. Grabinsky, an anesthesiologist, to what appeared to be a group of EMT's at Harborview Medical Center in Seattle--while not perfect, it is better than most such discussions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tku8YI68-JA&feature=youtu.be.

[Josh Runkle]

That, aside from the permanent cavity and the temporary cavity, a higher velocity round will cause a greater negative pressure following the immediate temporary cavitation which will cause further blunt trauma.

I will be watching the video as soon as I get a chance. Thanks for posting it!

[Webb297]

This thread is another example why I love reading this forum, even the train wreck threads end up being informative, rather than the other way around.

[DocGKR]

"a higher velocity round will cause a greater negative pressure following the immediate temporary cavitation which will cause further blunt trauma"

In a word...NO. That is absolutely NOT correct. Keep in mind at LAIR, testing included shots in excess of 6000 fps and this purported effect was not ever validated.

[Josh Runkle]

In a word...NO. That is absolutely NOT correct. Keep in mind at LAIR, testing included shots in excess of 6000 fps and this purported effect was not ever validated.

Interesting. I truly believe you, as you clearly seem to have more info on the subject and most likely, more experience as well. I am curious about the data. Do you have a link to a study?

[DocGKR]

This work pre-dates internet links; some of the LAIR data was published in the mid to late 1980's. You might try--Fackler ML, Bellamy, RF, and Malinowski JA: "A Reconsideration of the Wounding Mechanism of Very High Velocity Projectiles--Importance of Projectile Shape". The Journal of Trauma. 28(No.1 Suppl):S63-S67; January 1988.

[zacbol]

I don't personally have the knowledge/experience to get in any kind of debate on this subject but because it's a viewpoint I don't see too often online, I will chime in with what Dr. Mike Shertz shared during Insights Tactical First Aid which I attended in August 2010.

During class he stated that all of his personal rifles were 16" with 55grain FMJ because of the known fragmentation you get from from that round with the velocity you get with a 16" or greater barrel. He recommended not going under 14.5" for barrel length due to the loss of velocity and commensurate loss in fragmentation. He did not think rounds like TAP could compete with that combo and spoke of his general distaste for most ammunition studies, stating most did not properly calibrate their ballistic gelatin, used them to infer wound cavities when "properly calibrated' gel was only intended to simulate penetration and equated the ammunition manufacturers to modern pharmaceutical companies.

This is his background:


Dr. Mike Shertz is an active, board certified emergency medicine physician practicing in one of the busiest emergency departments in Oregon. His tactical experience was gained as a former US Army Special Forces Medic. He is a Special Deputy for the Washington County, Oregon Tactical Negotiations Team (S.W.A.T.) where he is the medical director as well as being actively involved in tactical operations. Mike serves as the medical director for a large fire department in Oregon. He is an Advanced Cardiac Life Support Instructor, a Federal NBC Disaster Preparedness Instructor, and has attended the Counter Narcotics Tactical Operations Medical Support Course.


He's not hear to argue his point of view but his class and presentation was enough to convince me. Shertz is an absolute zero bullshit guy and I was immensely impressed by him in the class as well as what he shared during anther company's class at which he was a fewllow student--that is actually what led me to Insights in the first place. I'm not trying to convince anyone, but if you're in the Seattle area and interested in this subject and his point of view, I think he has a few upcoming classes.

[Sparks2112]

Everybody thinks different things for different reasons. There are no magic bullets, shoot them in the face and they usually stop what they're doing, so I've been told. I like my GD and TSX rounds all else being equal however.

[DocGKR]

zacbol: 55 gr FMJ is not particularly consistent as noted by both JSWB-IPT and LAIR: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4343-5-56-mm-55-gr-M193-Terminal-Performance-Thoughts.

I can guarantee you that JSWB-IPT, LAIR, FBI-BRF, Crane, CHP, SJPD all have used properly calibrated ordnance gel in their studies. Properly done gel studies can provide information on much more than penetration, as noted here: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4333-Ordnance-gelatin-test-assessment-for-rifle-and-pistol-calibers.

A good guideline for 5.56 mm/.223 Duty ammo is available here: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4344-5-56-mm-Duty-Loads.

[Sunday]

55 and 62 ball is "cheaper" than soft point . No other reason.