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View Full Version : Course Review: SouthNarc ECQC - Beaver Falls, PA - April/May 2011



Jay Cunningham
05-03-2011, 08:34 PM
Many defensive/tactical shooting instructors (and schools of instruction) employ terminology with the intent of differentiating themselves from other shooting disciplines. Usually this terminology involves a variation on the the phrase "fighting with a gun".

This past weekend I both hosted and participated in SouthNarc's Extreme Close Quarters Concepts course. I knew from descriptions, pics, and videos that it would be different than the other instruction that I've had, both in content and level of challenge.

I am neither going to go into excruciating detail, nor am I going to dwell on any hardware issues. I am still digesting the lessons, so you're not going to get my awesometesimal take (http://pistol-training.com/archives/4585) on all things combative. I'll give some general thoughts and impressions:



Your chosen mode of carry may help you to manage a problem, or it may create additional problems to manage.

Consider your drawstroke, and why you perform it the way that you do - consider extraneous movement. Watch yourself on video.

Speaking of extraneous movement - this will tire you out very quickly when grappling. Use your energy reserves when the odds are highest that you will achieve a desired effect.

All of the different competing techniques, doctrines, and methodologies for drawing and shooting handguns tend to go out the window (so to speak) when you are fighting a grown man inside of a car.

Once again, avoiding the fight is a really good idea. People *will* telegraph their intentions, so watch them.

If you are in great shape, are young and strong, and have a solid striking and ground game, but you cannot fire and hit a 3×5 card at 5 yards on demand then you need to work on your marksmanship.

If you have attended 900 hours of tactical shooting schools but don't know how to throw a punch or you are fat, then you should start remedying that situation.

It is truly amazing that grown men, many of whom are strangers to each other, can pummel the living shit out of each other and shoot each other with sim guns, only to shake hands and pat each other on the back at the end of the evolution.

Drew Carey and the crew from Whose Line Is It Anyway? have *nothing* on the guys that were in my ECQC course! Some of the instant improvisational acting was pure genius.

Don't quit.



A final thought - SouthNarc has my highest possible recommendation, both as an instructor and as a regular dude bullshitting over a beer. If you want to learn how to fight with a gun - the art of problem solving - you need to train with SouthNarc.

Jay Cunningham
05-03-2011, 09:06 PM
In addition to SouthNarc, thanks to all the students, The Beaver Valley Rifle and Pistol Club (http://www.bvrpc.org/), and Grey Group Training (http://www.greygrouptraining.com/). Thanks to member orionz06 for multimedia support.

Tom Givens
05-03-2011, 11:08 PM
Southnarc has THE best handle on the 0-2 meter problem of anyone in this business. I host him at least once a year to let my advanced students fill the gaps in their training.

Also, many instructors lecture that awareness and avoidance are vitally important, but don't teach the student what to look for or how to correctly interpret what they see. Southnarc does a better job of this than anyone else I know.

He is also damned good at finding premiere steakhouses wherever we go!

SouthNarc
05-04-2011, 06:03 AM
Thanks for the good words Jay! First time in PA teaching and I couldn't have asked for a better experience. Thank you for the great hosting sir!

Jay Cunningham
05-04-2011, 07:15 AM
My pleasure and you are welcome up here anytime. In follow-up communications that I've had with some of the students, the most common descriptors were "outstanding" and "got way more than my money's worth".

:cool:

orionz06
05-04-2011, 08:19 AM
I would like to add some comments as an observer (corny, eh?). First off, this was a class that I needed to take but didn't. I had every reason worked out in my head on why TO take it, and a dozen more on why I shouldn't take it. Unfortunately the wrong side won. In discussion towards the end of the class, Southnarc made the comment that people have asked for an ECQC Lite, or a prep class for it. He listed all of the same reasons people want it as I had running through my brain. It is not that I was afraid to take it, but perhaps nervous or just stupid. Either way, it was obvious after a few different drills had happened that I made a mistake. The effort taken to ensure not only a safe environment, but one that creates healthy learning for all skill levels is unmatched. It was also cool to see that no one was trying to earn the gold trophy (http://www.mom-in-a-million.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/DoucheTrophy.jpg) for the most switched on mo'fo' in the class. When the smallest dude went against the biggest dude, both came out with good and bad points to take with them and work on.

If you think that is too long winded, take it from someone who is lamenting a bad decision to not take the class, just do it. Talking about it is easy, taking it is only harder if you make it that way.

I am thankful to have been asked to be there, and very thankful that I was able to not only meet Southnarc but pick his brain and ask questions as if I were a student. I had a good deal of validation along with a few things that probably need changed that I did not know until now.

greyghost
05-04-2011, 08:33 AM
Sounds like an outstanding class.

Some good takeaways there Jay.

This sounds like a course I need to add to my short list of wants.

StayintheFight
05-04-2011, 02:21 PM
I would like to echo the above statements. The class was conducted in a safe manner and drilled/stressed the student to their maximum capacity. My friends and co workers thought I was crazy when I came back from the weekend bearing welts and a large skin burn on my forehead. I'd do it again. You could easily say that everybody was having fun! Yes it was hard work, yes there was some pain, however the amount of smiles, handshakes, and effort to participate was says otherwise. My classmates were well mannered and a great group of guys!

Special Thanks to SouthNarc for one other new lesson:

Fried Bacon is the bomb!

Jay Cunningham
05-04-2011, 04:53 PM
One additional item that I think merits a mention -

I've been through a lot of coursework (and put on some of my own) and have seen many different attitudes towards safety. In this instance I'm not referring to safe gun handling, I'm referring to an emergency plan. I've had some instructors who just jump in it and I've had some who are really pretty thorough. Hell, I thought my own emergency plan brief was pretty thorough.

SouthNarc took the emergency plan to a new level of seriousness - one which the coursework deserves. We had a designated first responder, alternate first responder, a designated driver, alternate driver, a designated vehicle with room cleared in the back and trauma kits staged (after an inventory of the trauma kits) and the nearest Level 1 trauma facility programmed into the GPS with the keys on the dashboard. Of course we had cell phones and a sheet with the name and address of the host facility.

Now *that* is a proper emergency plan.

Blake
05-04-2011, 07:42 PM
I'll just add some comments to what has already been discussed.

I thought this was a great class. SouthNarc's class is structured in very logical manner that adds tools along the way to learning Close Quarters defensive/offensive system. To keep this somewhat brief, most people that carry a gun that don't seek training,this is a huge mistake. To use a cliche, they don't know, what they don't know. To go further, I think this type of training is just as vital as learning how to punch holes effectively in targets. Many people out there train well with weapons, many people train in martial arts/MMA/defensive tactics, very rarely do you put it all together with the kind of physical contact ("pressure") that you will get in this class. Not every day that you can walk in to your local MMA gym and fight with weapons in play, and pay the price with a Simunitions round.

I really believe this is a must for everyone that is serious about their personal defense. If you are a patrol officer, do whatever you have to do, get in this class. This class will get you outside of your comfort zone....way outside most likely. It was a great time, with a great group of guys. I cannot wait to do it again.

Jay Cunningham
05-05-2011, 12:55 PM
Some pictures of the course are here:

orionz06's photostream (http://www.flickr.com/photos/tomkelley/sets/72157626573980178/)

:D

zenghost
05-06-2011, 10:14 AM
My apologies in advance for the length of this. Broken into two parts due to posting limitations.

Part I

I attended this class with two co-workers. We are all LEOs from the same department with me being a part-time officer (reserve) and my co-workers being full-time officers. During the past few years I had taken it upon myself to be much more proactive about seeking out training that I thought would help reveal and address weaknesses in my skillset and provide insight that might be passed on to fellow officers. In the past this has included mostly firearms-based courses. Those classes, when combined with lots of focused practice, were extremely effective in increasing my firearms proficiency. However, I had been aware of the ECQC class for at least a couple years, and had read about it with great interest as I knew it was covering holes that existed in my current skillset. I purchased SouthNarc's DVDs to get a better idea of the basic teachings, but I knew I had to take this class to get a more comprehensive exposure to his material and, of course, experience the simulations.

I am not what I would consider as much of a fire-breathing, testosterone-driven machine as some guys. I won't shy away from confrontation if it is necessary, but I don't necessarily relish the idea of going into a conflict to see how I measure up. Consequently, I was intimidated by this class, but knew I'd regret not attending especially seeing that it was only a couple hours drive from me. I also knew I needed to get more comfortable mixing it up in the force-on-force simulations. I am a believer in the value of stress-inoculation as a concept and reality. We typically do not get enough of that in LE. Lastly, I had two guys who agreed to attend the class with me who were very capable and, for all intents and purposes, fearless.

I won't go into the details of the class as there is enough existing info out there. Suffice it to say, it is hard to overstate the value of this class. The first four hours, Managing Unknown Contacts, was invaluable from an LE perspective and I am certain it was for CCW folks as well. I took copious notes the first night. SouthNarc was sure to relate LE-specific info when appropriate. We appreciated that as we were "LE-heavy" as he put it. SouthNarc gave us some great ideas to help us manage our field contacts more safely. Most of it is incredibly simple and painfully obvious once you see it, but very effective. He proved it.

Criticisms? Nothing glaring. If I had to nit-pick, I'd say I felt like I was drinking from a firehose at times. Especially Saturday afternoon, when we were trying to learn some simple techniques to negotiate an extremely close quarters encounter by either getting the hell out of there or sealing the deal, so to speak. In retrospect, I can see the toolkit SouthNarc was presenting to us was a stripped down, what you need to save-your-ass, set of techniques. I understand it better from this side than I did during it. A large part of this challenge might be attributed to me possessing a less than average amount of athletic ability. Not that extreme athletic ability was required in any way, but it may have took me longer for me to digest and assimilate the techniques. My work will continue towards that end. I am fortunate my two fellow attendees are more athletically inclined with one being a MMA-guy with tons of real-life grappling/BBJ experience. I'll be relying on them to help me ingrain these techniques to a much greater degree.

The sims/evolutions. Yep, they can be very, very intense - no question. They are also very, very valuable. Absolutely essential in fact. They bring everything together, and, based partially on your decision-making, can bring literally bring everything down upon you in a split-second. They definitely took me out of my comfort zone. During the 2-on-1 sim I was taken down ( I ran it as an LEO with duty rig). I ultimately ended up pinned on my back with two guys pummeling me and stripping my gun. I was blacked out as far as visuals and had very little room to breath at the end (compressed chest and helmet). It was downright panic-inducing, but I was able to focus and fight. You simply have to do the best you can for as long as you can regardless of whether you've been "shot" or immobilized. SouthNarc provides three key elements of assistance during the sims. One, he monitors very closely for unsafe conditions or potentially severe injury-inducing actions. Two, he provides extremely good coaching to help you get on track with doing what is the most beneficial to ensuring your survival (escaping or gaining control if possible). Three, he will not accept you conceding defeat. Simple as that. No doubt, the sims could get rough, but I felt relatively safe the entire time.

In my opinion, you want to be physically fit to get the most out of this class. I maintain a relatively high level of fitness with plenty of weight training and serious conditioning. I had no worries about fitness level going into the course. Let me qualify that though. I am definitely not a stud by any definition, but I simply try to maximize my potential, which is admittedly not profound as far as athleticism is concerned. The two guys I attended the course with are real specimens (it does not rub off on me unfortunately). You have to keep in in mind that there are many variables at play in the sims and real life. Strength, conditioning, mobility, flexibility, technical ability and athleticism, decision-making ability under stress and pure capacity for violence/aggression are some of them. I knew my hands-on skills were lacking, and that there were plenty of people stronger than me. It's good to be aware of your limitations - it can help drive your decison-making. Some people were obviously gassing during simple non-consensual drills the first night. Not a good thing if your interested in your own survival during a fight for your life. To paraphrase SouthNarc, "the operative word in 'gunfight' is 'fight' and a fight by definition is an athletic event." Enough harping on that.

A lot of "lightbulb" moments in this class for me. As a result of this class, I am re-thinking several key approaches to the ways I was handling some things, or seeing things handled. A few simple examples:

- relegating position "SUL" to the toolbox for use as a conscious choice, not a reflexive action. Use it only when appropriate and be aware there are other alternatives. Don't be an automaton. A large part of being conscious, is being aware and being aware includes being aware of what you are doing and why.

- task fixation and task switching - the detrimental effect they can have on our performance when encountering possible life-threatening situations

- edged weapons in an LE context - too many knives (folders and fixed) and such being carried with the idea they will be used as a defensive weapon in spite of the lack of real and meaningful training with them and the complete lack of regard for the fact it is another weapon you bring to the fight for both you and the bad guy. The more accessible it is to you, the more accessible it is to the bad guy. Once you run some sims, you realize it is hard enough to keep track of one weapon that may enter the fight, let alone a knife. Not saying edged weapons do not have a place in an LE-context, simply that the vast majority of officers (me included) have an unrealistic, over-simplistic (almost fantastical) notion that the simple presence of knife (carried in all sorts of ridiculously unsecured manners) buys them more security. Do the work and find out.

- Having a firearm and being very proficient with it (not just talking about shooting pretty groups on a bulls-eye target) does not qualify you as being able to properly defend yourself with that weapon if you are encroached upon and victimized. Do the work and find out. (disclaimer - I really want to attend Todd's AFHF as much as the next guy and hopefully will someday.)

- the Safariland SLS/ALS combo makes for a damn fine duty holster. Not impossible to compromise, but damn difficult for the uninitiated and yet easy weapon access for the user. Our guys were grateful for the opportunity to run most of the sims with our duty rigs. Our gear was stress-tested like it had never been tested before. I broke a handcuff pouch during a sim. Who cares? Small price to pay for the learning experience. (continued)

zenghost
05-06-2011, 10:15 AM
Part II

I'd be remiss if I didn't close with the heart of what makes the ECQC course so valuable, the instructor. We've all been students at one level or another. I've been a student and taught at the college level. I'd like to think I have an innate sense and appreciation for exemplary instruction. I don't want to sound like I am blowing sunshine up your skirt, but I don't know that I've ever experienced a more knowledgeable, genuine, and capable instructor than SouthNarc. He "owns" the material, which is very important. He can explain the genesis of the principles and the techniques that relate to those principles. You can question him. He will explain himself and better yet, give you the opportunity to learn from experience (sometimes painful) as to why what he is teaching is truth. It may "a truth" instead of "the truth" in some cases, but it is valid nonetheless. When all is done, you don't go away believing. You go away knowing. Big difference. He's smart, analytical and discerning (you can just tell), and has "done the work" by culling the most pertinent and valuable material from various facets of his experiences and a wide variety of disciplines and approaches. He puts it in a package that inter-relates and brings it all together. You never get the sense he is simply regurgitating the info for you. He is friendly, humorous and approachable, but he teaches with a sense of urgency that makes you feel like he has a vested interest in your well-being. Can't ask for more than that.


When I started viewing and researching the ECQC material, I felt SouthNarc was the real deal as the little bit of material I had seen "rang true" with me. I could tell he had a goldmine he was sharing. My experience in ECQC showed that to be true. A big thanks to SouthNarc for sharing his knowledge, skills, and experience with us and for the patience in instructing the material to our class. Thanks to all who came out and immersed themselves in what I consider an unsurpassed training experience. Many thanks also to the military folks of present and past who attended the class and to whom we owe our gratitude.

As for my crew, we already have our FIST helmets on order and are getting fired up about bringing the "truths" of what we have learned back to our department with hopes at least some of those folks will be willing to listen, learn and "do the work."

phil_in_cs
05-07-2011, 10:08 AM
Excellent review. You said you took a lot of notes Friday evening, and it was still 'drinking from a fire hose'. SN's PUC video spends a goodly amount of time on the MUC skills, and even though I've taken ECQC the video points out some things I missed as well as helping put in context some of the stuff from the evos.

Jay Cunningham
05-07-2011, 12:47 PM
I am hoping to continue my study using the different media available between now and the next time I can take ECQC... I have some local friends who took the class, and I suspect we'll be working on live evolutions here and there.

Aray
05-07-2011, 01:08 PM
I have high hopes of ECQC being offered here again in the future. It's on my short list.

phil_in_cs
05-08-2011, 07:33 AM
I have some local friends who took the class, and I suspect we'll be working on live evolutions here and there.

There's no doubt doing the work is the key. My group pooled some $ and got some FIST helmets, and they've made a huge difference in the intensity of our work.

Intense enough my wrist is in a brace:(

SamueL
05-23-2011, 08:02 PM
I'm a little late to the party...

There is not much more I can add that hasn't already been posted. I can honestly say though that ECQC was THE best course I didn't know I needed. The majority of my training has been in firearms and traditional martial arts, separately, and nothing related to actually getting the firearm into the fight. This is where the simunitions really shine. ECQC helps you realize that with efficiency, fortitude, stamina, and technique, even Davids can hold their own against Goliaths, at least 50% of the time. I came away from ECQC humbled and with a less than flattering evolution nickname. I now have a definitive laundry list of things I need to work on and affirmation of some thoughts I've personally formed on training and mindset. I will definitely be back for more, and if feasible, will attempt to take ECQC once a year.

SouthNarc is an incredible instructor on the range and cool dude off. His crawl-walk-run instruction quickly and coherently brings everyone up to speed, regardless of previous experience. I had minimal grappling experience going into the course but was still able to keep up once I fully grasped the fundamentals and fine-tuned the techniques.

As always, Jay did a helluva a job hosting the course at BVRPC. If you bring SouthNarc back in the future, and I hope you do, you can go ahead and count me in.

Frank D.
05-24-2011, 03:13 AM
Not content to simply rag-on Larry Vickers, the ENDO Gun Blog (http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2011/05/23/stupid-training-scenario/comment-page-1/#comment-34968) currently has a post up trashing a Southnarc youtube vid.

At least he's in good company?

SouthNarc
05-24-2011, 06:31 AM
Sweet!:D

Slavex
05-25-2011, 02:07 AM
add at the bottom of the page for a video on how to put a stock on your Glock tells me enough about that Blog to not take anything on it seriously.


Not content to simply rag-on Larry Vickers, the ENDO Gun Blog (http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2011/05/23/stupid-training-scenario/comment-page-1/#comment-34968) currently has a post up trashing a Southnarc youtube vid.

At least he's in good company?

Kyle Reese
05-25-2011, 01:16 PM
add at the bottom of the page for a video on how to put a stock on your Glock tells me enough about that Blog to not take anything on it seriously.

Funny how an anonymous non entity makes fun of well established / respected SME's right?

I'd like to see his resume.

NickA
05-26-2011, 06:10 AM
Funny how an anonymous non entity makes fun of well established / respected SME's right?

I'd like to see his resume.
Sad that some people will actually read this bonehead's drivel and take it seriously. Makes me even more glad I've figured out where the good info is, like here at PF.

Blake
06-01-2011, 08:57 PM
Fuck those guys. SouthNarc is some of the best training I have had to date, and I feel like I have had some pretty damn good training since I have started in my training endeavor.

ranburr
06-07-2011, 01:36 AM
I took this class several yrs ago in TX. I have had dozens of classes from the biggest names in the industry. This is the only class that I would take again. It is that good.

Aray
02-01-2012, 01:17 PM
Well said Blake.

zacbol
02-25-2012, 11:56 AM
Great thread and particularly appreciate your AAR zenghost.

I'd really love to get out to a class with SouthNarc. I've bought instructional DVDs from many of the biggest names and almost universally they've been a disappointment insofar as they don't seem to go into the depth or provide the quality of instruction I feel I've gotten from the senior instructors at Insights such as John Holschen and Greg Hamilton. His DVD, however, has been the exception but I know it's not the same as taking a class. I only wish he did more stuff closer to me. As I recall, Hamilton and SouthNarc were actually in Ranger school together so perhaps there was something in the water. Lol.

For those in the PNW and who like me aren't able to get out to take a class with SouthNarc, there is an upcoming class taught by John Holschen that sound similar in content to this class and which is coming up in May. I'm hoping I can get to it:
http://insightstraining.com/view_course.asp?courseID=16

Here's the content:


The majority of law enforcement officers are killed in confrontations that take place at under seven feet. The only answer given for how to win in these situations is "just shoot 'em." If it's that easy, why do officers keep getting killed? What we need is a fighting system that allows the defender to instantly and reflexively employ either deadly or non-deadly force while minimizing the assailant's ability to harm them.

InSights Training Center Instructors have taken their practical individual experience and together developed a system that works. The problem with most systems is that there are too many decisions to make in too small a time period. It would be like carrying five guns of different types, shooting them all differently, and trying to choose which one to use under the stress of combat. The saying goes, "Beware of the man with one gun." Well, we say BEWARE OF THE INDIVIDUAL WITH ONE COMBAT SYSTEM! - the person who knows without hesitation exactly what he is going to do in any armed or unarmed conflict. In this course you will become such a person.

You will learn a full unarmed combat system and an integrated firearms combat system. The course can be physically demanding depending on how hard you try, but everyone should come regardless of age or physical condition. You will only be asked to do what you can. The course will make extensive use of striking bags and protective padded suits (FIST gear) and you will be striking "opponents" with everything you have in combat simulations.

Subjects Covered:

Stunning or disabling your opponent while protecting yourself and drawing your handgun
Fighting your way out of a contact distance confrontation
Lethal and nonlethal handgun retention techniques
What to do if you are knocked down - winning from there, and fighting your way back up
Fluidly transitioning from lethal to nonlethal force
Integrating unarmed skills, handgun, and other self-defense items into a total "use of force continuum" so that you respond with the right answer quickly