Apex/ Barsto barrel M&P 9mm

[jmi786]

Does anyone know what has happened to the Apex/ Barsto barrel for the M&P 9mm?
There has not been one post since 3/2012.

?????????

[KeeFus]

Does anyone know what has happened to the Apex/ Barsto barrel for the M&P 9mm?
There has not been one post since 3/2012.

?????????

I gave up waiting on them and bought a KKM Precision barrel. Works great and I'm sure it was cheaper.

[Savage Hands]

You're not going to find the information you are looking for on here since Randy Lee rarely posts, you'll find more up to date info on M4C in the Apex Tactical Specialties section. I'm not up to date anymore as I have not participated in any testing for them since last summer and I'm not in the loop anymore.

[YVK]

I gave up waiting on them and bought a KKM Precision barrel. Works great and I'm sure it was cheaper.

I don't see M&P barrel options on KKM website. Is it something one needs to call them for?

[KeeFus]

I don't see M&P barrel options on KKM website. Is it something one needs to call them for?

WOW! I just looked myself. I'd call to find out what's up. I bought mine directly from them.

[PPGMD]

WOW! I just looked myself. I'd call to find out what's up. I bought mine directly from them.

SSS actually discontinued the KKM barrels about the time that Apex announced that they were nearing production of the Bar-sto barrels (I had a backorder on the KKM).

But anyways from what I heard the batch that was anticipated had some production issues that have prevented the barrels from being produced in the announced production window. And Apex is waiting for their production run.

It has been a long journey, but it looks like they are almost done. Myself I hope they get mine delivered by November, that is my drop dead date for equipment changes before the 2014 Bianchi Cup. After that I am moving forward with my XDM for another year (though I am having the barrel refitted this summer).

[KeeFus]

Just received this email response from KKM about the M&P barrels:

"Your in luck, they are in stock but not on our new website yet. Please give us a call to place the order."

[RStephen]

Got an e-mail from Bar-Sto last week. Been on a waiting list for over a year now... Bar-Sto stated...
"We are beginning the production of the M&P Bar_sto barrels and your name was on our waiting list. Are you still interested in purchasing this barrel. I replied "YES".
Has anyone else seen this e-mail?
May have a KKM up for sale when the Bar-Sto arrives. The KKM is great but I have Bar-Sto in all of my other pistols.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I'm supposed to be on the same list and haven't received an email. Here's hoping!

Did they mention a price?

[KeeFus]

Bar-Sto M&P barrels anyone?

http://www.barsto.com/category_main.cfm?ID=SWMP

[PPGMD]

I've had a pair of M&P Pros with the Apex Bar-sto match fit barrels since July. Due to being in 1911 mode until the IPSC Nationals, I've only had a chance to put a little over 100 rounds through one of my pair.

But they are quite accurate, groups average about 2" at 25 yards from prone. Apex was getting 1.5" groups with the new version ammo (I was using the reloads), and .73" groups with ASYM both off the bench.

Based on my experience, if you buy one of these barrels from Bar-sto match fit barrels, shoot the gun with the barrel fitted first before buying sights. Mine were 4" low from POA, so I had to do with a much lower front sight than what is normally recommended for the rear sight I am using.

Now I haven't talked about them at Apex's request, I didn't get the full story why until this afternoon. Apex still isn't offering the barrels themselves. Bar-sto is delivering barrels based on their own specs, and mine were custom machined from those barrels, to match Apex's specs. Apex is still continuing to find a way to deliver barrels to their specs. So my results may or may not reflect production Bar-sto barrels. I doubt that there is anything inherently wrong with the Bar-sto M&P barrels, nor did I get that impression from talking to Apex.

[YVK]

I've had a pair of M&P Pros with the Apex Bar-sto match fit barrels since July. Due to being in 1911 mode until the IPSC Nationals, I've only had a chance to put a little over 100 rounds through one of my pair.

But they are quite accurate, groups average about 2" at 25 yards from prone. Apex was getting 1.5" groups with the new version ammo (I was using the reloads), and .73" groups with ASYM both off the bench.

Based on my experience, if you buy one of these barrels from Bar-sto match fit barrels, shoot the gun with the barrel fitted first before buying sights. Mine were 4" low from POA, so I had to do with a much lower front sight than what is normally recommended for the rear sight I am using.

Now I haven't talked about them at Apex's request, I didn't get the full story why until this afternoon. Apex still isn't offering the barrels themselves. Bar-sto is delivering barrels based on their own specs, and mine were custom machined from those barrels, to match Apex's specs. Apex is still continuing to find a way to deliver barrels to their specs. So my results may or may not reflect production Bar-sto barrels. I doubt that there is anything inherently wrong with the Bar-sto M&P barrels, nor did I get that impression from talking to Apex.

To sum it up, whatever experience you'll get with these, it will not be fully reflective of Barsto offerings available through their website?

[PPGMD]

To sum it up, whatever experience you'll get with these, it will not be fully reflective of Barsto offerings available through their website?

Probably, I wouldn't call mine prototypes, but they certainly aren't the same as the production Bar-sto barrels.

[Lomshek]

So no Apex locking block or barrel fitting option?

[KeeFus]

I'm interested...but $240 for a match barrel then another $215 for fitting is the price of a new pistol. My KKM drop-in is good enough for now.

[SteveB]

Wilson Combat's drop-in barrel has cut my group sizes in half; 147 grain American Eagle runs about 2.5":

http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Match-Grade-Barrel-9mm-Smith-Wesson-MP-9-425-Stainless/productinfo/689/

[PPGMD]

So no Apex locking block or barrel fitting option?

At least based on what they told me, not until they get barrels delivered to their specs.

[orionz06]

Wilson Combat's drop-in barrel has cut my group sizes in half; 147 grain American Eagle runs about 2.5":

http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Match-Grade-Barrel-9mm-Smith-Wesson-MP-9-425-Stainless/productinfo/689/

As your gun previously acceptable? What are the group sizes with better ammo? 2.5" with american eagle is solid.

[SteveB]

As your gun previously acceptable? What are the group sizes with better ammo? 2.5" with american eagle is solid.

Factory barrel ~5" with AE, which is the best ammo I shoot in this gun.

[Randy Lee]

Hello All,

I apologize for kicking a dead horse after so long. I figured that replying to this thread was the best place to answer some long asked questions.

In regards to the machined locking block, we abandoned the project after making a handful and testing them. Due to the tolerance variations of the gun, we saw no statistical data that they improved the accuracy. We will let Smith formulate their changes in the locking blocks and MIM them as they see fit. The cost to manufacture the new locking block would make it unprofitable, especially in light of the sporadic and minimal gains.

The Apex/Bar-Sto barrel:
Years ago I had asked Irv if he could make a barrel to my specifications. The barrel that Bar-Sto produces is based upon Irv's years of experience in barrel manufacturing and not on my design specifications. As a result, I did not feel comfortable placing my company name on something that I had no hand in creating. The Bar-Sto barrel is a very good barrel, however there are very specific dimensions and twist rate that I require to accomplish my accuracy expectations.

As PPGMD mentioned, we asked him to keep quiet while I tried to sort things out. Irv is a good friend and an exceptional barrel maker and I do not want to tarnish his reputation. It boils down to the fact that any barrel that carries the Apex name must be entirely to my specs. Period.

So I have spent the better part of 4 years quietly looking at the 9mm accuracy deficit with the M&P. I have watched the various forum posts while I collected accuracy data and slide measurements throughout this time. I have also watched literally tens of thousands of individual frames of high speed video looking for clues as to the root cause of erratic accuracy. This is in part, why no one has heard from me.

I cannot comment on my findings as I am going through the patent process at this time. I will say that it is a complex, multi-faceted problem rather than just one single root cause. I can also say that we have a pretty good solution to the problem...

The point of all this is that I have been testing my barrel design since the beginning of the year. I can say with confidence that the M&P is mechanically capable of shooting 2" groups at 50 yards with commercially available 124 gr and 147 gr ammo, and sub 1" with tailored hand loads. Our test guns were 5" Pros and 9Ls shooting 5 shot groups from a Ransom Rest. When I am permitted to attach photos of some of the test targets, I shall.

[Savage Hands]

Hello All,

I apologize for kicking a dead horse after so long. I figured that replying to this thread was the best place to answer some long asked questions.

In regards to the machined locking block, we abandoned the project after making a handful and testing them. Due to the tolerance variations of the gun, we saw no statistical data that they improved the accuracy. We will let Smith formulate their changes in the locking blocks and MIM them as they see fit. The cost to manufacture the new locking block would make it unprofitable, especially in light of the sporadic and minimal gains.

The Apex/Bar-Sto barrel:
Years ago I had asked Irv if he could make a barrel to my specifications. The barrel that Bar-Sto produces is based upon Irv's years of experience in barrel manufacturing and not on my design specifications. As a result, I did not feel comfortable placing my company name on something that I had no hand in creating. The Bar-Sto barrel is a very good barrel, however there are very specific dimensions and twist rate that I require to accomplish my accuracy expectations.

As PPGMD mentioned, we asked him to keep quiet while I tried to sort things out. Irv is a good friend and an exceptional barrel maker and I do not want to tarnish his reputation. It boils down to the fact that any barrel that carries the Apex name must be entirely to my specs. Period.

So I have spent the better part of 4 years quietly looking at the 9mm accuracy deficit with the M&P. I have watched the various forum posts while I collected accuracy data and slide measurements throughout this time. I have also watched literally tens of thousands of individual frames of high speed video looking for clues as to the root cause of erratic accuracy. This is in part, why no one has heard from me.

I cannot comment on my findings as I am going through the patent process at this time. I will say that it is a complex, multi-faceted problem rather than just one single root cause. I can also say that we have a pretty good solution to the problem...

The point of all this is that I have been testing my barrel design since the beginning of the year. I can say with confidence that the M&P is mechanically capable of shooting 2" groups at 50 yards with commercially available 124 gr and 147 gr ammo, and sub 1" with tailored hand loads. Our test guns were 5" Pros and 9Ls shooting 5 shot groups from a Ransom Rest. When I am permitted to attach photos of some of the test targets, I shall.


I can host them for you Randy, PM me if you don't remember my email address.

[Lomshek]

The point of all this is that I have been testing my barrel design since the beginning of the year. I can say with confidence that the M&P is mechanically capable of shooting 2" groups at 50 yards with commercially available 124 gr and 147 gr ammo, and sub 1" with tailored hand loads. Our test guns were 5" Pros and 9Ls shooting 5 shot groups from a Ransom Rest. When I am permitted to attach photos of some of the test targets, I shall.

Looking forward to it! If you're short on testers I know this guy who isn't afraid to shoot some groups and wants to see a better M&P...

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z67/bonecreekgunclub/Forum%20photos/MP9HBKTargetCollage.jpg

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z67/bonecreekgunclub/Forum%20photos/MP9DXEtargetcollage.jpg

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z67/bonecreekgunclub/Forum%20photos/MP9MREtargetcollage.jpg

[john c]

Hello All,

So I have spent the better part of 4 years quietly looking at the 9mm accuracy deficit with the M&P. I have watched the various forum posts while I collected accuracy data and slide measurements throughout this time. I have also watched literally tens of thousands of individual frames of high speed video looking for clues as to the root cause of erratic accuracy. This is in part, why no one has heard from me.

I cannot comment on my findings as I am going through the patent process at this time. I will say that it is a complex, multi-faceted problem rather than just one single root cause. I can also say that we have a pretty good solution to the problem...

The point of all this is that I have been testing my barrel design since the beginning of the year. I can say with confidence that the M&P is mechanically capable of shooting 2" groups at 50 yards with commercially available 124 gr and 147 gr ammo, and sub 1" with tailored hand loads. Our test guns were 5" Pros and 9Ls shooting 5 shot groups from a Ransom Rest. When I am permitted to attach photos of some of the test targets, I shall.

How long until the patent process is to the point where you can release product? I'll definitely buy one!

Does this patent have similar results on .40 and .45 M&Ps? Will you offer it for these pistols?

[Randy Lee]

How long until the patent process is to the point where you can release product? I'll definitely buy one!

Does this patent have similar results on .40 and .45 M&Ps? Will you offer it for these pistols?
We plan on releasing the first run by the end of summer. These will be 4.25 and 5" barrel lengths in 9 mm. Threaded versions will be produced later this year.

The new design should benefit all the caliber variants, however part of the accuracy equation is determining what twist rate yields the optimum accuracy for a given bullet weight range. My focus has been on the 9 mm because it seemed to have the most complaints regarding accuracy. We will explore making .45 and .40 barrels in the future, once we see how much of a demand there truly is for the 9 mm barrels.

Please note that my office does not have any information regarding a release date, nor any particular details about the design of the barrel. This project has been kept secret so that I could manage expectations and control the release of information, especially now that the manufacturers are about to submit their entries for the U.S. Army's Modular Handgun trials. The accuracy requirement is 4" at 50 meters, and from the data I have collected, the factory barrels cannot hold to this standard. Ours will.

[Savage Hands]

Here's the first pic from Randy:
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k208/ymish627/Mk%202%20test%20target%204_3_15%20Guardian%20Gold% 20ammo.jpg

[Savage Hands]

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k208/ymish627/Mk%202%20test%20target%2050%20yards%204_29_15.jpg

[Savage Hands]

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k208/ymish627/Mk%201%20test%20target%2050%20yards%20Ransom%20Res t.jpg

[Randy Lee]

I just realized that my posts might be considered astroturfing according to the forum guidelines. If so moderators, please let me know and I will delete all my posts....

[Kyle Reese]

I just realized that my posts might be considered astroturfing according to the forum guidelines. If so moderators, please let me know and I will delete all my posts....

No worries, Randy. [emoji3]


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Sam]

This is pretty exciting. Too bad M&Ps aren't on the roster anymore. I really enjoyed the ergonomics when I owned some.

[Fly320s]

We plan on releasing the first run by the end of summer. These will be 4.25 and 5" barrel lengths in 9 mm. Threaded versions will be produced later this year.

The new design should benefit all the caliber variants, however part of the accuracy equation is determining what twist rate yields the optimum accuracy for a given bullet weight range. My focus has been on the 9 mm because it seemed to have the most complaints regarding accuracy. We will explore making .45 and .40 barrels in the future, once we see how much of a demand there truly is for the 9 mm barrels.

Please note that my office does not have any information regarding a release date, nor any particular details about the design of the barrel. This project has been kept secret so that I could manage expectations and control the release of information, especially now that the manufacturers are about to submit their entries for the U.S. Army's Modular Handgun trials. The accuracy requirement is 4" at 50 meters, and from the data I have collected, the factory barrels cannot hold to this standard. Ours will.

I'll watch your website for the release. I'll buy at least two when they are ready.

[Randy Lee]

This is pretty exciting. Too bad M&Ps aren't on the roster anymore. I really enjoyed the ergonomics when I owned some.
I feel your pain. It seems like pretty soon there won't be anything left on the roster at all.

[Lomshek]

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k208/ymish627/Mk%201%20test%20target%2050%20yards%20Ransom%20Res t.jpg

Holy crap! Am I understanding right that that's at 50 yards? Anything besides a barrel change?

[Randy Lee]

Holy crap! Am I understanding right that that's at 50 yards? Anything besides a barrel change?

This group was shot out of a barrel that was fitted to the slide and frame. The semi drop in will typically shoot 2.5" or less at 50 yards

[Fly320s]

This group was shot out of a barrel that was fitted to the slide and frame. The semi drop in will typically shoot 2.5" or less at 50 yards

Does/will Apex offer a fitted barrel option?

[DocGKR]

I am looking forward to this!

[RJ]

No worries, Randy.



Awesome. TY Mods for allowing this. P-F is awesome. :cool:

Mr. Lee - Very interested in details as they come out. Thanks for the info.

[LittleLebowski]

This group was shot out of a barrel that was fitted to the slide and frame. The semi drop in will typically shoot 2.5" or less at 50 yards

Wow. Tagged for more info.

[Lomshek]

This group was shot out of a barrel that was fitted to the slide and frame. The semi drop in will typically shoot 2.5" or less at 50 yards

I'd be willing to pay at least $10 extra for a 1"/50 yard gun (maybe even more :o).

[Randy Lee]

Does/will Apex offer a fitted barrel option?

Yes. Due to some wild tolerances in the slide manufacturing, we have left several critical areas oversized on our gunsmith fit version. Like fitting a 1911 barrel, it should be mated to both slide and frame for optimum accuracy.

[Jakus]

Yes. Due to some wild tolerances in the slide manufacturing, we have left several critical areas oversized on our gunsmith fit version. Like fitting a 1911 barrel, it should be mated to both slide and frame for optimum accuracy.

I have a 9mm gun milled for an RMR that I'd be interested in getting fitted. Would you be able to add a thumb safety and FSS trigger to the gun when the barrel is fitted if the gun does not have the safety frame cuts?

[Randy Lee]

I have a 9mm gun milled for an RMR that I'd be interested in getting fitted. Would you be able to add a thumb safety and FSS trigger to the gun when the barrel is fitted if the gun does not have the safety frame cuts?

We would be able to install our FSS trigger kit while we are fitting the barrel, however the frame molds are radically different between the thumb safety capable frames, and the ILS capable frames. The thumb safety frames' sear housing blocks and safety levers require more space in the frame, so attempting to make them fit in a non TS frame would be costly.

-Randy

[DocGKR]

Jakus--your best bet would be to purchase another M&P with a safety/safety cuts, then swap slides; selling the one you don't want...

[Jakus]

Jakus--your best bet would be to purchase another M&P with a safety/safety cuts, then swap slides; selling the one you don't want...

Doc,

Not to dig myself a hole here but.... I would worry about the sellability of a mismatched frame/slide....especially since I'd most likely look at PF.com to list it...am I over thinking this?

[DocGKR]

You have an M&P frame coupled with an M&P slide; how are they mismatched?

[GJM]

Doc,

Not to dig myself a hole here but.... I would worry about the sellability of a mismatched frame/slide....especially since I'd most likely look at PF.com to list it...am I over thinking this?

Glock serializes the slide, frame and barrel. M&P only the frame.

I have sent several pistols back to S&W and been unable to determine which upper originally went with which lower, upon return.

[Randy Lee]

Slide to frame fits on the M&P are pretty generous, so as GJM stated, you most likely won't be able to discern any difference when you swap slides between frames.

[NoogMan]

Randy,
Any updates on the new barrel? While I'm not the best shooter, I love the ergo's of the M&P, and shoot my Shield pretty well....BUT the M&P 9 I have (December 2013 production) is all over the place for me. Very interested to see what you've come up with.

[jmi786]

I came back to this thread that I posted two years ago to check for any updated news,
and I am glad to hear that the Apex barrel is making progress.

Thanks Randy for all of the great products you have created for the M&P.

Do I get to go to front of the line for a barrel fitting since I started the thread?

Thanks again

[KevinB]

Oh, I have a few M&P's that have been waiting (cause I can't blame myself for poor shooting...)

*I have Fred for that...

[USA]

I have several M&Ps and would be interested in the barrels depending on price. To give you an idea, I think Bar-Sto's prices are too high. To get a barrel fitted by Bar-Sto buys you another gun. I might as well buy a different gun at that point.

[Kyle Reese]

Oh, I have a few M&P's that have been waiting (cause I can't blame myself for poor shooting...)

*I have Fred for that...

Ha! [emoji3]


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[richiecotite]

I have several M&Ps and would be interested in the barrels depending on price. To give you an idea, I think Bar-Sto's prices are too high. To get a barrel fitted by Bar-Sto buys you another gun. I might as well buy a different gun at that point.

Me too, but I'm going to guesstimate that these are out of my price league (i.e. $250 or higher) . When I can shoot a 4" group, off hand at 25 yd consistently, then maybe I'll treat one of my m&p's to a fitted apex barrel. Guessing I have time on both fronts.

[Randy Lee]

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k208/ymish627/Joe_DelSole_25yd.jpg (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/ymish627/media/Joe_DelSole_25yd.jpg.html)

Hi All,

This is a 5 shot group from the Ransom Rest at 25 yards using Fiocchi 115 gr. jhp ammunition out of a full size M&P 9.
It is pretty exciting to see these kinds of results.

[Mark]

Wow, that's really impressive, might make me reconsider the M&P9, my .40 is scary accurate...just couldn't get the same out of the 9.

[GJM]

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k208/ymish627/Joe_DelSole_25yd.jpg (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/ymish627/media/Joe_DelSole_25yd.jpg.html)

Hi All,

This is a 5 shot group from the Ransom Rest at 25 yards using Fiocchi 115 gr. jhp ammunition out of a full size M&P 9.
It is pretty exciting to see these kinds of results.

Do I recognize that M&P full size?

[DamonL]

Ok. I am going to buy an M&P so I can buy a barrel to put into it.

[Luke]

That is insane! I'd love to find somebody with a ransom around here to see what mine would do. It's a 2012 model with a KKM barrel. I'm getting some fliers at 25 but can't blame it on the gun with my current skill level.

[Randy Lee]

Do I recognize that M&P full size?

Sorry GJM, the ones you would recognize are being tested for accuracy this week... :-)

Most guns have been hovering around the 1" mark. That being said, we have test fired several that shoot close to half inch groups. Pretty amazing when you consider the tolerances of the M&P.
It also proves that a polymer striker fired pistol can go toe to toe with some of the top custom 1911s in the accuracy department.

Randi Rogers just won the Ladies title at the USPSA Production Nationals last week with one of our barrels.

[DamonL]

Are you using bullets of different weights and still getting the same results?

Are the barrels fitted?

[Randy Lee]

Are you using bullets of different weights and still getting the same results?

Are the barrels fitted?

The target was shot by a gun with a fitted barrel. Shooting 147 gr PRVI ammunition yields 1" groups at the same distance.
Good quality hand loaded 147 gr Zero jhps shot at 50 yards yielded several sub 1" groups ( Different guns were used for those tests).

[SteveB]

Randy, are you accepting guns for barrel fitting at this point?

[RJ]

I have several M&Ps and would be interested in the barrels depending on price. To give you an idea, I think Bar-Sto's prices are too high. To get a barrel fitted by Bar-Sto buys you another gun. I might as well buy a different gun at that point.

That's kind of where I ended up with my M&P FS9. I just bought a VP9. The M&P sits on the nightstand with HPs until I get around to trading/selling it.

[Fly320s]

I hope you guys are starting to install these barrels soon. Put me down for at least two.

[Navyguns]

If it wasn't for Apex, the M&P wouldn't have the presence it does. Kind of frustrating to buy a pistol then drop more money for a decent trigger and barrel. Yes, the pistol will work right out of the box but there is a lot of performance left on the table. Shame on S&W.

[Randy Lee]

We are about 3 weeks out from accepting guns for fitting. As soon as I know that all our fixtures are ready, and our customer service staff are up to speed I will post an update.

A few years ago, James Debney came to our booth at the NRA Annual Meeting and asked why our parts weren't in their guns. It is unfortunate that Smith did not listen to him then. With the new Modular Service Pistol trials looming, our barrels would have easily met the accuracy criteria of 4" at 50 meters.

[DamonL]

I hope you have a good supply of barrels. You are going to get slammed.

[Randy Lee]

I hope you have a good supply of barrels. You are going to get slammed.

We are ramping up to make sure that we have enough on hand at release.

[Luke]

What kind of prices parts and labor (with fitting)?

And this will take care of the ones with crazy accuracy issues?

[DamonL]

On the Barsto site, the barrels start at $240 and go up to $330 with all the options.

I have a few Barsto barrels on custom 1911's and I like them a lot.

[Randy Lee]

What kind of prices parts and labor (with fitting)?

And this will take care of the ones with crazy accuracy issues?
Our barrels will be $199.95 for either 4.25" or 5" lengths.

Labor for fitting should be right around $135.00.

We plan on test firing using the Ransom Rest to show group before the barrel is fitted and after. This fee is $20.00, at least for the time being.

We have fitted 13 or so barrels to various problem guns. All of the guns now group around 1" at 25 yards using 115 and 147 grain jhps.
There have been more than a couple threads on various forums bashing the 1:10" twist. One went so far as to infer that anyone who believes the faster twist is a good idea has no idea what they are talking about. I would say to the authors that they have no understanding of how the M&P barrel behaves during the firing phase, nor how the twist rate can affect dwell time in this system. To be honest, I don't think Smith understands it either.

[Luke]

Do you offer the ransom rest testing without buying one of your barrels? I'd be curious to see what mine is capable of before having another barrel put in it.

[Wondering Beard]

I would say to the authors that they have no understanding of how the M&P barrel behaves during the firing phase, nor how the twist rate can affect dwell time in this system. To be honest, I don't think Smith understands it either.

I don't understand it either, actually I never knew that it could have an effect.

Could you explain it further?

[Randy Lee]

Do you offer the ransom rest testing without buying one of your barrels? I'd be curious to see what mine is capable of before having another barrel put in it.

We don't currently offer it as a separate service because of the limited time that we have access to the range facilities (we have about a 3 hour window per week to use the range uninterrupted).

[Randy Lee]

The resitance due to the increased torque forces imparted to the barrel by the bullet in the M&P helps to prolong the dwell time. Think of it as trying to twist and pull on the barrel while firing the pistol. The faster twist increases the rotational forces on the barrel which, in a sense binds the barrel in the slide for a slightly longer period of time. The slower the twist, the less binding effect. It is a minimal gain, however our test results at 50 yards between factory 1:18.75, 1:10, a 1:16 and our 1:10 show statistical relevance to the idea.

The other problem is the wide variation in the slide's muzzle end barel cut. The bore dimensions on the front end of the slide vary wildly, and the relief cut so that you can remove and install the barrel also varies by several thousandths. We know that as soon as you fire a shot, the gun with a factory or even aftermarket barrel loses uniform lock up stability. This is due to how the engineers designed the barrel locking surfaces. The looser the contact between the front of the slide and the bottom of the muzzle due to a larger bore or smaller barrel OD exacerbates the problem. This is in part, why some guns will show improvement with aftermarket barrels while others will not. The vertical slide to frame tolerances also contribute to the instability of the barrel because the bottom lug of the barrel never really makes contact with the locking block until the barrel is moving down and to the rear under recoil.

In order to achieve consistent accuracy the bottom lug should make contact with the horizontal surface of the locking block, and the front of the barrel needs to be as close to the slide bore dimension as possible.

[Luke]

Does the properly fitter faster twist rate barrel fix the issues with the slide as well?

[Randy Lee]

Does the properly fitter faster twist rate barrel fix the issues with the slide as well?












Yes.

[Wondering Beard]

The resitance due to the increased torque forces imparted to the barrel by the bullet in the M&P helps to prolong the dwell time. Think of it as trying to twist and pull on the barrel while firing the pistol. The faster twist increases the rotational forces on the barrel which, in a sense binds the barrel in the slide for a slightly longer period of time. The slower the twist, the less binding effect. It is a minimal gain, however our test results at 50 yards between factory 1:18.75, 1:10, a 1:16 and our 1:10 show statistical relevance to the idea.

Ok, that makes sense


The other problem is the wide variation in the slide's muzzle end barel cut. The bore dimensions on the front end of the slide vary wildly, and the relief cut so that you can remove and install the barrel also varies by several thousandths. We know that as soon as you fire a shot, the gun with a factory or even aftermarket barrel loses uniform lock up stability. This is due to how the engineers designed the barrel locking surfaces. The looser the contact between the front of the slide and the bottom of the muzzle due to a larger bore or smaller barrel OD exacerbates the problem. This is in part, why some guns will show improvement with aftermarket barrels while others will not. The vertical slide to frame tolerances also contribute to the instability of the barrel because the bottom lug of the barrel never really makes contact with the locking block until the barrel is moving down and to the rear under recoil.

In order to achieve consistent accuracy the bottom lug should make contact with the horizontal surface of the locking block, and the front of the barrel needs to be as close to the slide bore dimension as possible.

So basically, the barrel is loose in contacting the front of the slide and the loose in its contact with the frame? If I understand you correctly that's some major engineering defects.

Just to be sure I understand, on top of the fitting at the muzzle and at the lugs (which I assume are oversized for proper fitting?) the faster twist of your barrel creates a longer dwell time which "binds" the barrel to both front of slide and and the frame ensuring mechanical repeatability?

[Randy Lee]

I
Ok, that makes sense



So basically, the barrel is loose in contacting the front of the slide and the loose in its contact with the frame? If I understand you correctly that's some major engineering defects.

Just to be sure I understand, on top of the fitting at the muzzle and at the lugs (which I assume are oversized for proper fitting?) the faster twist of your barrel creates a longer dwell time which "binds" the barrel to both front of slide and and the frame ensuring mechanical repeatability?
In a nutshell, yes.
In a stock gun, the barrel is destabilized almost immediately upon firing. If you look at how the barrel locks up, the rear of the hood contacts the breechface, and it is the slide that pushes the barrel forward under recoil spring force. Smith designed the slide and barrel to stop against the takedown lever, which is cylindrical. The bottom front of the barrel lug is ramped and bears against the takedown lever, and forces the chamber end of the barrel up against the slide. This is why, when you pull back ever so slightly on the slide you see the barrel begin to drop. If the bottom standing lug that is just forward of the feed ramp made contact with the locking block, I suspect people would see better accuracy across the board.

Going back to the front end of the barrel, if you pull back on the slide just .005" and try wiggling the barrel at the muzzle you will find in most cases a significant amout of play. With no mechanical support at the rear, and a wide range of slop in the front, you can begin to understand why accuracy is not exceptional. At this point you are really relying on the individual cartridge pressure to create repeatable movement of the barrel and slide- and that is nearly impossible to reproduce shot to shot.
By increasing the torque forces on the barrel (increasing the twist rate), the factory was hoping to use this binding effect to improve accuracy. In some cases it does- however when all the manufacturing tolerances are at the extreme ends of the spectrum, you will find pistols that are minute of barn door accuracy.

Our barrel was designed to use the torque imparted by the faster twist rate to enhance but not rely on it for barrel stability. The chamber end of the barrel maintains vertical stability by resting on the horizontal surface of the locking block. Our muzzle end is at maximum diameter, so that the front end remains locked against the slide bore with maximum surface contact. When we fit the barrel, pulling back on the slide even so far as .100" and perform the muzzle test, you will find that it remains locked until the locking block pulls the barrel down for extraction.

The enhanced stability at both ends of the barrel are why our barrels typically shoot around 1" at 25 yards (2"@50) with good quality ammo regardless of bullet weight.

[DiscipulusArmorum]

Just wanted to say thanks for stepping up and offering solutions for the M&P that Smith either can't or won't. The M&P was my first pistol, and while I'm exploring alternatives, really do have a soft spot for the overall "platform."

Did Smith just bubba engineer this gun without the kind of comprehensive testing you're doing? Or is it more of a case of "we could fix it but our margins and volume are just fine, thanks"?

[Randy Lee]

Thanks. The M&P really does have a lot going for it. I suspect that decisions about manufacturing made downstream of the original engineering designs corrupted the system, but I cannot be sure.

Purely speculation on my part, but I have to believe that someone is looking purely at the numbers of guns out there vs. the number of complaints, and sees that it is a very small number relatively speaking.

With the Modular Service Pistol trials on the horizon, Smith will not be in the running unless they are designing an entirely new pistol...

[GardoneVT]

Did Smith just bubba engineer this gun without the kind of comprehensive testing you're doing? Or is it more of a case of "we could fix it but our margins and volume are just fine, thanks"?

Have you not seen what the typical shooter considers 'good'? 99.9999999999999999


......


(Sucks in breath)

.....9999999999999999% of S&Ws new customers(or any other company's for that matter) couldn't hit a barn door at 10 yards with a customized $4000 1911. Even the worst M&P is perfectly suitable to hitting cans at 7 yards.

[Jim Watson]

The resitance due to the increased torque forces imparted to the barrel by the bullet in the M&P helps to prolong the dwell time. Think of it as trying to twist and pull on the barrel while firing the pistol. The faster twist increases the rotational forces on the barrel which, in a sense binds the barrel in the slide for a slightly longer period of time. The slower the twist, the less binding effect. It is a minimal gain, however our test results at 50 yards between factory 1:18.75, 1:10, a 1:16 and our 1:10 show statistical relevance to the idea.

Holy grimoley, shades of Elbert Hamilton Searle and the Savage Automatic!

[Lomshek]

Randy, With your fitted barrels what kind of point of impact change at 25 (or 50) yards do you see across the common weights of bullets (115-147) in a given gun? My factory barrel guns give me a vertical shift of 4" to 6" between lowest and highest shooting loads depending on which gun. Wondering if the fitted barrel would reduce that POI shift so that using different loads doesn't make hitting distant plates so "challenging".

Looking forward to getting a barrel!

[RJ]

Just wanted to say thanks for stepping up and offering solutions for the M&P that Smith either can't or won't. The M&P was my first pistol, and while I'm exploring alternatives, really do have a soft spot for the overall "platform."



+1. I bought an M&P FS9 because of the great ergos. I don't shoot it much any more due to inconsistent groups at 25 yards.

This explanation from Mr. Lee makes great sense. It is awesome to gain some insight into what might be causing this problem. Really looking forward to seeing these new barrels roll out. Good luck!

[j.d.allen]

Just wondering out loud here, don't the .40 version and the shield have the same design? Doc even says you can convert a 9mm to .40 by swapping slides. Why is it that the 9 FS is the only model to have these issues?

[Randy Lee]

Randy, With your fitted barrels what kind of point of impact change at 25 (or 50) yards do you see across the common weights of bullets (115-147) in a given gun? My factory barrel guns give me a vertical shift of 4" to 6" between lowest and highest shooting loads depending on which gun. Wondering if the fitted barrel would reduce that POI shift so that using different loads doesn't make hitting distant plates so "challenging".

Looking forward to getting a barrel!

So far, our shift is about 1.5" @ 25 yards between 115 and 147 gr. This could change depending on bullet design and velocities of the myriad of ammo types out there.

[Randy Lee]

Just wondering out loud here, don't the .40 version and the shield have the same design? Doc even says you can convert a 9mm to .40 by swapping slides. Why is it that the 9 FS is the only model to have these issues?

I believe it has to do with bullet diameter. The 9mm has a relatively small cross section, so with the original 1:18.75" twist, the torque forces are substantially less than the .40 or .45. The larger diameter of the bullet equates to larger surface area that bears against the rifling. That plus an increase in mass of the projectile help with stabilizing the barrel in the slide.

I could be entirely wrong in my theories, but it is the only answer I could come up with.

[agksimon]

Randy Lee: California has their own set of rules about guns being sent to their state. My gun dealer told me he can't even send one there, without special permission, which is a pain to get. Also, if a gun isn't on their "approved" list, it can't be sent to you at all. How will we be able to send our guns to you for fitting, even if you have an FFL?

[JMS]

You only need to send the slide and barrel...unless Cali's got some cockamamie rules against even doing that.

[agksimon]

You only need to send the slide and barrel...unless Cali's got some cockamamie rules against even doing that.

I spoke to Randy Lee this morning and he says they need the whole gun.
I didn't find out about California's goofy gun law until after I spoke to him.

[JMS]

Gotcha, I read back (shoulda done that first...), and can see why.

[Luke]

So how do we send them?

[Sam]

Randy Lee: California has their own set of rules about guns being sent to their state. My gun dealer told me he can't even send one there, without special permission, which is a pain to get. Also, if a gun isn't on their "approved" list, it can't be sent to you at all. How will we be able to send our guns to you for fitting, even if you have an FFL?

Getting "special permission" isn't really special permission, it's a CA DOJ check that the person you are shipping to has an FFL, and doesn't take that much effort to get.

https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/cflcoverview

With regards to the "approved" list, that is for Californians buying pistols and has nothing to do with you sending firearms into the state for gunsmith work.

[john c]

Also, you can send the gun in directly to an FFL, and it bypasses the Cal DOJ check. Apex can then send the gun directly back to you. The downside is that you have to send it overnight via Fedex or UPS. This can cost more than the slower ways your FFL can ship. Depending on how much your FFL charges, it may be cheaper to send directly.

[agksimon]

Thanks for your replies on shipping to CA. Guess my local dealer didn't know the whole story. Now, I have to justify to my wife, my spending over $400 for a new barrel, without her retaliating and buying that much in new clothes.

[HCM]

Thanks for your replies on shipping to CA. Guess my local dealer didn't know the whole story. Now, I have to justify to my wife, my spending over $400 for a new barrel, without her retaliating and buying that much in new clothes.

Just except that it's an $800 barrel :-)

[Randy Lee]

Hi agksimon,

California- love the climate and where I live, but hate the taxes, unfriendly to small business attitude and crazy insurance rates.

For ffl holders, it's pretty painless to get set up. CA Department of Justice requires a "Shipping Authorization Letter". The ffl holder will need to go th CA DoJ website and input their standard FFL data. From there they request a shipping authorization number using our name and 5 digit code. DoJ generates a number and printable form that says that guns are coming into CA.

It is nothing more than a way for the state to skew the stats and claim that there are millions upon millions of firearms being imported into the state. What they do not track however are the guns that are being shipped out. For instance, your ffl sends us a gun and their business is outside the state. They have to get the letter of authorization. When we return the gun, there is no accounting for the guns exit. Very few of the uninformed masses here know this- so when the media reports numbers of guns in CA, the numbers are inaccurate to say the least.

Apex will be moving out of the state in the very near future, as they have made it perfectly clear that they do not want us here.

[agksimon]

When I talked to you the other day, I mentioned that if you were in Michigan, I'd be working for you.
MOVE HERE, gun friendly climate. BTW: I'll be in contact with you about having the barrel replaced on my 5" M&P Pro.

[Navyguns]

Move to Georgia. We will welcome you with open arms.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Why would Randy, et. al. want to live in any State, when they can move to the Republic?

[Sam]

Hi agksimon,

California- love the climate and where I live, but hate the taxes, unfriendly to small business attitude and crazy insurance rates.

For ffl holders, it's pretty painless to get set up. CA Department of Justice requires a "Shipping Authorization Letter". The ffl holder will need to go th CA DoJ website and input their standard FFL data. From there they request a shipping authorization number using our name and 5 digit code. DoJ generates a number and printable form that says that guns are coming into CA.

It is nothing more than a way for the state to skew the stats and claim that there are millions upon millions of firearms being imported into the state. What they do not track however are the guns that are being shipped out. For instance, your ffl sends us a gun and their business is outside the state. They have to get the letter of authorization. When we return the gun, there is no accounting for the guns exit. Very few of the uninformed masses here know this- so when the media reports numbers of guns in CA, the numbers are inaccurate to say the least.

Apex will be moving out of the state in the very near future, as they have made it perfectly clear that they do not want us here.

It will be sad to see Apex leave my favorite corner of California, but completely understandable. We'll have to overnight Sylvester's for you.

[Randy Lee]

It will be sad to see Apex leave my favorite corner of California, but completely understandable. We'll have to overnight Sylvester's for you.

It's pretty sad, the folks at Sylvester's know us by name...

[Savage Hands]

Randy, I'm surprised you guys stayed this long. I hate that my family had to move back.

[Randy Lee]

Where Apex is located is pretty insulated from the influences of LA, SF or San Diego, so it still has a conservative flavor. Weatherby and Hogue Grips call this area home too. And of course, there is Sylvester's Burgers 3 doors down...

[DamonL]

If you come to northern Virginia, I'll buy you a burger from Social Burger.

[Randy Lee]

If you come to northern Virginia, I'll buy you a burger from Social Burger.

Hmmmm....

[DamonL]

There are a lot of burger places in my area. Going in one direction is Foster's Grille, Social Burger, McDonalds, Fuddruckers, Freddie's Steakburgers, and Smashburger. In the other direction is Elevation burger, Wendy's, BGR, Five Guy's, and Shake Shack. Burger 7 is in another direction.

I have been to them all. These are just the nearby ones. I know a few more. :)

[JV_]

DamonL: McDonalds and Wendy's are not burger places.

[DamonL]

I have my favorites, but I try to be fair and open minded. :) I have been to all the ones I mentioned. It's funny, but burgers are like pistols. Everyone has a favorite, but for different reasons. :)

[Randy Lee]

I have my favorites, but I try to be fair and open minded. :) I have been to all the ones I mentioned. It's funny, but burgers are like pistols. Everyone has a favorite, but for different reasons. :)

I might need to find a place that has a M&P burger...

[MichaelD]

Come to Utah, specifically the Salt Lake Valley. Our Greek burger joints beat 'em all... Crown Burger, Olympus Burger, Astro Burger, Apollo Burger, etc.

[ranger]

Come to Georgia. Lots of business infrastructure and gun friendly. Beaches to the South and hills (small mountains?) to the North.

[USA]

Randy,

Are your barrels fitted to the locking lug, slide or both? The reason I ask is I have several M&Ps in 9MM and 40 S&W. I swap the slides and frames of my M&Ps around depending on what gun game I am shooting. For example, I have a gun setup for limited in 40 S&W. I swap the slide to a 9MM to use for 3-gun. That 9MM originally sat on a production/SSP legal frame. I have another frame legal for ESP, that sits under an RMR equipped slide, which is also my HD gun.

Can I continue swapping slides and frames with your barrels? Will it result in reduced accuracy improvement because the barrel is no longer fitted to the particular locking lug? The barrels would stay with the slides, but the slides would not stay with the same frame, depending on what game I'm shooting.

Thank you for any information you can provide on this.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Why would Randy, et. al. want to live in any State, when they can move to the Republic?

Corpus Christi. I'll quit copping to come work for you.

[HCM]

Corpus Christi. I'll quit copping to come work for you.

Austin - its like a mini California only with gun rights ....

[Chuck Whitlock]

Austin - its like a mini California only with gun rights ....

But we have beaches. And fewer granola people.

[Randy Lee]

Randy,

Are your barrels fitted to the locking lug, slide or both? The reason I ask is I have several M&Ps in 9MM and 40 S&W. I swap the slides and frames of my M&Ps around depending on what gun game I am shooting. For example, I have a gun setup for limited in 40 S&W. I swap the slide to a 9MM to use for 3-gun. That 9MM originally sat on a production/SSP legal frame. I have another frame legal for ESP, that sits under an RMR equipped slide, which is also my HD gun.

Can I continue swapping slides and frames with your barrels? Will it result in reduced accuracy improvement because the barrel is no longer fitted to the particular locking lug? The barrels would stay with the slides, but the slides would not stay with the same frame, depending on what game I'm shooting.

Thank you for any information you can provide on this.

Our barrels are designed to provide best accuracy to an individual pistol. This is because it is the only way to compensate for the tolerance stacking of an individual pistol. When we fit a barrel here, the hood length and bottom lug are machined to fit a particular frame and slide. As long as the barrel's bottom lug makes proper contact with the frame's locking lug in battery, practical accuracy should be preserved- this is one of the problems with the factory design, as the locking lug on most M&Ps does not contribute to the upward locking forces on the barrel.

[Randy Lee]

We will be releasing info on the barrels shortly. But in the meantime, I wanted to show the groups we are now averaging from the Ransom Rest. Our testing shows that a barrel, if designed correctly will stabilize the spectrum of bullet weights as long as the projectiles are of consistent manufacture.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k208/ymish627/Mk%201%208_26_15%2025yd%20147%20gr%20jhp.jpg (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/ymish627/media/Mk%201%208_26_15%2025yd%20147%20gr%20jhp.jpg.html)

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k208/ymish627/Mk%201%208_26_15%2025%20yd%20124gr%20fmj.jpg (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/ymish627/media/Mk%201%208_26_15%2025%20yd%20124gr%20fmj.jpg.html)
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k208/ymish627/Mk%201%208_26_15%2025yd%20115gr%20fmj.jpg (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/ymish627/media/Mk%201%208_26_15%2025yd%20115gr%20fmj.jpg.html)
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k208/ymish627/Mk1%208_26_15%2025yd%20115gr%20Fiocchi%20jhp.jpg (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/ymish627/media/Mk1%208_26_15%2025yd%20115gr%20Fiocchi%20jhp.jpg.h tml)

[Fly320s]

Those are impressive groups, even for a Ransom Rest.

Did you shoot groups with any other ammo? If yes, how did those do?

[j.d.allen]

Forgive me if this has already been covered, but this is a long thread. Will you be offering drop in barrels that will improve the accuracy? And if so how much will they be?

[Randy Lee]

We did test our barrels with other ammunition like Hornady Critical Defense, Federal Personal Defense, Winchester 147 gr training ammunition- all at 50 yards and grouped 2" or better. I chose to test PRVI and Fiocchi because it was readily available and on the lower price piont than some of the other brands. From experience (and chatting with my good friend Stan Chen) Zero bullets have shown very consistent results. The Fiocchi 115 gr jhps use Zero bullets and has shot well under an inch out of ALL of the guns with our fitted barrels.

Accuracy tests are ongoing. I will be doing more testing with cheaper US manufactured ammo, however one should not expect these kinds of results from plinking ammunition.

[Randy Lee]

We will be offering an end user DIY barrel that may require a few swipes from a file (if at all) to get a precision fit. The price will be the same as our gunsmith fit barrels.

[Jeep]

After reading the last few pages of this thread I have to ask whether you will give a burger discount on that? (Lots of disappointed people if you don't).

[Randy Lee]

After reading the last few pages of this thread I have to ask whether you will give a burger discount on that? (Lots of disappointed people if you don't).

If I had a cardiologist, he would love that...

[Luke]

If you will test some of the cheap/bulk freedom munitions stuff that would be very awesome.

[Randy Lee]

If you will test some of the cheap/bulk freedom munitions stuff that would be very awesome.

We will be testing some other bulk ammunition, but I believe the PRVI PPU 115 gr fmj is pretty inexpensive and can be purchased at Bass Pro Shops, Cabelas and the like.

On a personal level, I want to test Blazer Aluminum because it shoots extremely well through the Smith 952 Performance Center gun.

[ror123]

The Fiocchi 115 gr jhps use Zero bullets and has shot well under an inch out of ALL of the guns with our fitted barrels.

Are 115gr JHPs inherently more accurate than 115/124gr FMJ?

I have noticed that the Germans that I shoot PPC with firmly believe in them, that's all they shoot in their 9mm pistols for 25m and 50m disciplines.

[Luke]

Ballistics on HP's in general are better. That's why precision rifle stuff is HPBT (hollow point boat tail)

[PPGMD]

Are 115gr JHPs inherently more accurate than 115/124gr FMJ?

I have noticed that the Germans that I shoot PPC with firmly believe in them, that's all they shoot in their 9mm pistols for 25m and 50m disciplines.

I was told that a lot more care goes into the manufacturer of JHP, and that it is easier to detect issues.

At Bianchi a vast majority of the competitors are shooting Zero JHP-C or the Hornandy XTP bullet. Often 115 gr for 9mm or 38 super.

[ror123]

At Bianchi a vast majority of the competitors are shooting Zero JHP-C or the Hornandy XTP bullet. Often 115 gr for 9mm or 38 super.

Thank you...

Just called my dealer and ordered a 100 115 gr XTP's to try out in my M&P9 FS but will also try them in my CZ 75 TS (hoping this will yield good results in the 25m and 50m ranges)

South Africa doesn't stock "zero" bullets.

[Randy Lee]

One of the most critical aspects of "accurate" handgun bullet design is the back end of the bullet (assuming it is a true jacket and not a copper plating). JHP bullets typically have very uniform rear surfaces because of how the copper or brass jacket cups are formed. Plus, the bonding of the lead core makes for a very cosistent projectile.

Hornady Action Pistol bullets are the same as the XTPs but without the expansion cuts- so they are cheaper in bulk pricing.

[RJ]

Um, sorry if this is a dumb question, but maybe it relates:

What would be the expected increase in average dispersion by using a common garden variety / Wal Mart RN FMJ ammo (Freedom 115 remans, or WWB) vs say a quality JHP (Speer GD 124+p, say)?

I mean, at 25 yards, am I going to see a reduction in group size on a B-8 if I shoot the good stuff?

[Luke]

Those 1" groups were from cheap crap! Lol

[Randy Lee]

Um, sorry if this is a dumb question, but maybe it relates:

What would be the expected increase in average dispersion by using a common garden variety / Wal Mart RN FMJ ammo (Freedom 115 remans, or WWB) vs say a quality JHP (Speer GD 124+p, say)?

I mean, at 25 yards, am I going to see a reduction in group size on a B-8 if I shoot the good stuff?

Fiocchi 115 jhps, PRVI 115 fmj and 147 jhps are pretty inexpensive and comparable to the manufactured ammos you listed. I wanted to prove that even with inexpensive ammunition, as long as the QC is good you should see outstanding accuracy at 25 yards.

A gun fitted with our barrel will demonstrate that level of group size provided the shooter has the ability to exploit it.

[RJ]

Fiocchi 115 jhps, PRVI 115 fmj and 147 jhps are pretty inexpensive and comparable to the manufactured ammos you listed. I wanted to prove that even with inexpensive ammunition, as long as the QC is good you should see outstanding accuracy at 25 yards.

A gun fitted with our barrel will demonstrate that level of group size provided the shooter has the ability to exploit it.

Cool. Thanks Randy.

[ror123]

A gun fitted with our barrel will demonstrate that level of group size provided the shooter has the ability to exploit it.

Will you be manufacturing Apex barrels for the S&W revolvers as well?

Isn't she beautiful...? :p

http://www.merkle-tuning.de/imageBig/1_017.jpg?ver=1348567252

[Luke]

Any news?

[SteveB]

Any news?

This from customer service at Apex a week ago:

We are not offering it yet. When you see the barrels and barrel services on
the website that is when we are doing those services.

[Randy Lee]

Any news?

We are close to a release date. We have to get all the marketing and product information, packaging and so forth ready. There were also a couple of tweaks to the final production run that I wanted included before the run button was pressed.
The new mods will compensate for the varying slide bore cuts that I have been seeing at the front end of the slides.

We also have to do explanatory and instructional videos to accompany our release. You would be amazed at some of the damage I have seen done to guns because of improper barrel fitting.

I want there to be no doubt that our barrels will do what I say they will do.

[Jakus]

Great to hear. I have an RMR'd gun ready and waiting for an Apex fit barrel.

[j.d.allen]

What I have been wondering is are you fairly sure the drop in barrels will help? Or might it be necessary to get a fitted barrel to see any improvement? I ask because some of the problem guns have been fixed with drop in barrels available thus far while others have not...?

[Randy Lee]

What I have been wondering is are you fairly sure the drop in barrels will help? Or might it be necessary to get a fitted barrel to see any improvement? I ask because some of the problem guns have been fixed with drop in barrels available thus far while others have not...?

We will not be making a drop-in per se. Semi-Drop-in would be more accurate. The reason why drop in barrels cannot resolve accuracy issues across the board is because of the tolerance stacking from gun to gun. I designed our Semi-Drop-In geometry to be at Max + tolerance at the hood and locking surface. What that means is that if you have a pistol with a slide to frame vertical tolerance that is on the larger end of the spectrum, the SDI will go into battery with very light forward pressure on the slide with no fitting required. If your gun has slightly tighter vertical tolerance, then you might have to remove metal from the standing lug- usually on the order of .002" to .005" to achieve a proper fit.

I designed the SDI so that the end user can fit the the barrel with only a file. If you watch our (soon to be released) fitting video and/or go over the fitting instructions that will be included with the barrel, it should only take 15 minutes or less to achieve a rock solid lock up.

So to answer your question, I am 100% certain that our SDI barrel (if properly installed and fed quality ammunition) will allow the shooter to perform to his or her ability.

[ror123]

So to answer your question, I am 100% certain that our SDI barrel (if properly installed and fed quality ammunition) will allow the shooter to perform to his or her ability.

If possible, please post a video on your YouTube channel, showing the standard barrel against the Apex barrel at 25m and 50m?

The pictures posted don't do justice :)

[Randy Lee]

If possible, please post a video on your YouTube channel, showing the standard barrel against the Apex barrel at 25m and 50m?

The pictures posted don't do justice :)

We will be doing a series of videos showing in real time the accuracy tests between factory and our barrel. I am currently reviewing test targets that were shot at 25 yards out of the Ransom from this past week. I wanted to see what POI shifts occurred when shooting groups with 115 gr and 147 gr ammo out of the factory barrel and ours. The targets are being digitally reproduced so that the test results can be put into an info video. I think people will be surprised to see the results. Or, maybe not...

[Luke]

I'm just ready for them to be ready! I've seen all I need to see!

[Randy Lee]

I'm just ready for them to be ready! I've seen all I need to see!

I agree! This barrel has been 5 years in the making!

[agksimon]

Hi Randy, I spoke to you on the phone, a couple of months ago about this barrel and the excellent 25 yard group sizes you got with various ammo, but the gun had to be sent in to Apex for barrel fitting. I was concerned about the red tape in shipping to California and the turnaround time. I see that you will now be selling a SDI barrel that can be fitted by the customer (presuming they're handy). Will this barrel shoot as tight a group as the barrel you would fit at Apex? If not, which is what I presume, how far will it fall short of the one you fit at Apex? Will the SDI barrel also have a 1 in 10 twist rate, like the Apex fitted barrel?
Thanks,
Al

[Randy Lee]

Hi Randy, I spoke to you on the phone, a couple of months ago about this barrel and the excellent 25 yard group sizes you got with various ammo, but the gun had to be sent in to Apex for barrel fitting. I was concerned about the red tape in shipping to California and the turnaround time. I see that you will now be selling a SDI barrel that can be fitted by the customer (presuming they're handy). Will this barrel shoot as tight a group as the barrel you would fit at Apex? If not, which is what I presume, how far will it fall short of the one you fit at Apex? Will the SDI barrel also have a 1 in 10 twist rate, like the Apex fitted barrel?
Thanks,
Al

Hi Al,

The twist rate is the same. I will be doing accuracy testing on the SDI in a couple of weeks, so I will have a definitive answer after that. I will let everyone know the results as soon as I collect the data. I would rather tell you exactly what results we get rather than speculate for the time being.

[Sam]

Hi Randy, I spoke to you on the phone, a couple of months ago about this barrel and the excellent 25 yard group sizes you got with various ammo, but the gun had to be sent in to Apex for barrel fitting. I was concerned about the red tape in shipping to California and the turnaround time. I see that you will now be selling a SDI barrel that can be fitted by the customer (presuming they're handy). Will this barrel shoot as tight a group as the barrel you would fit at Apex? If not, which is what I presume, how far will it fall short of the one you fit at Apex? Will the SDI barrel also have a 1 in 10 twist rate, like the Apex fitted barrel?
Thanks,
Al

I can't comment about turnaround time but it's not that much more obnoxious to ship into CA.

[Luke]

If you need real world data on how accurate they are with some regular guy with tools who ain't scared let me know! I'm so ready to get one of these! I'd love to buy and be a beta installer/tester :)

[Randy Lee]

I can't comment about turnaround time but it's not that much more obnoxious to ship into CA.

The big benefit to having us do the install is that we will test fire with your original barrel, and with the fitted. It takes a bit more time, but it is the best way to show improvement.

We have already prepared for the installations by making new fixtures that will speed up the process.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Hi Randy, I spoke to you on the phone, a couple of months ago about this barrel and the excellent 25 yard group sizes you got with various ammo, but the gun had to be sent in to Apex for barrel fitting. I was concerned about the red tape in shipping to California and the turnaround time.
Thanks,
Al


The big benefit to having us do the install is that we will test fire with your original barrel, and with the fitted. It takes a bit more time, but it is the best way to show improvement.

We have already prepared for the installations by making new fixtures that will speed up the process.

I'm pretty sure that Apex Tactical is located in CA.

[Jim Watson]

Is there additional red tape to send a gun to a gunsmith just because he is in California? He is going to send it back eventually, anyhow.

[Sam]

Some.

https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/cflcoverview

[agksimon]

Some.

https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/cflcoverview


Waaay too much red tape and cost for this guy. I hope the Apex move out of California happens ASAP. As there is no recourse for non-FFL's to send it directly to Apex, any FFL that I use to transfer the gun will charge both ways.

[Randy Lee]

Some.

https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/cflcoverview

You only need to go through the the CFLC and DoJ shipping authorization process if you are a FFL holder or are using your local FFL to ship to us. In that case, your FFL will need to go to the DoJ website and go through a couple of steps to get a shipping authorization number. The only thing we ask is that you not send your standard capacity magazines.

All this will be eliminated once we move to a free state.

[Randy Lee]

Waaay too much red tape and cost for this guy. I hope the Apex move out of California happens ASAP. As there is no recourse for non-FFL's to send it directly to Apex, any FFL that I use to transfer the gun will charge both ways.

Al,

Private owners are exempt and can send there guns to us without going through the stuff that Sam linked.
Even if we were out of state, you would still have to ship the gun overnight according to federal guidelines as is true for any private gun owner.

We have our FFL so it would be the same if you sent your gun to any other gunsmith.

[agksimon]

Thanks for the clarification. When I sent one of my M&P's back to S&W for warranty work, it was straightforward and simple. No involvement with any third party.
I will keep this in mind, when I make a decision on whether I send it to you for barrel fitting, or use the SDI version. This will be determined by your posting of results obtained through testing both.
Thanks,
Al

[Randy Lee]

Hi Al,

No problem! It sounds like you are good with hand tools, so if you can use a hand file and have a bench vise, you should be able to get a solid fit in about 15 minutes.

[agksimon]

I have a fairly decent set of gunsmithing and machining tools and have installed countless Apex trigger kits and sights for our IDPA group and friends. I'm looking forward to this new challenge, if the opportunity presents itself. I just want to see if the Apex installation is superior enough (smaller group sizes), to make it worth sending in. I purchased a Storm Lake drop in barrel for my M&P 9mm Compact earlier, this year and had some undesirable results. First; it didn't improve the group sizes, despite trying many bullet weights and factory brands, including a few home brew. Second; I found out that Winchester white box 115 grain is at the long end of spec and the gun would not eject live rounds once chambered and I had to remove the magazine and drop the cartridge out the mag well to remove it. Not good when shooting an event and having a dud round, plud it's a safety issue too.
Needless to say, the barrel went back for a refund.

One more question Randy: If I fit the barrel tight to your specs, at room temperature and it runs fine, then dump a few mags through it and it warms up, will there be enough expansion to cause a problem?

[Randy Lee]

I have a fairly decent set of gunsmithing and machining tools and have installed countless Apex trigger kits and sights for our IDPA group and friends. I'm looking forward to this new challenge, if the opportunity presents itself. I just want to see if the Apex installation is superior enough (smaller group sizes), to make it worth sending in. I purchased a Storm Lake drop in barrel for my M&P 9mm Compact earlier, this year and had some undesirable results. First; it didn't improve the group sizes, despite trying many bullet weights and factory brands, including a few home brew. Second; I found out that Winchester white box 115 grain is at the long end of spec and the gun would not eject live rounds once chambered and I had to remove the magazine and drop the cartridge out the mag well to remove it. Not good when shooting an event and having a dud round, plud it's a safety issue too.
Needless to say, the barrel went back for a refund.

One more question Randy: If I fit the barrel tight to your specs, at room temperature and it runs fine, then dump a few mags through it and it warms up, will there be enough expansion to cause a problem?

I expect our SDI to perform 85-95% of what our Gunsmith Fit barrels will do. This is because our GF barrel will compensate for variations in slide to frame fit 100% of the time. The SDI, as the name implies will compensate for vertical lock up variations roughly 90% of the time. The missing 10% out there have slide to frame vertical tolerances that are so far out on the acceptable range that only a GF barrel can be used to remedy the situation.

Thermal expansion shouldn't be an issue. If the barrel is properly fitted, even to a snug fit (slide will go into battery with 4 lbs or less of pressure applied to the back of the slide) it should still cycle. That is assuming the gun has proper lubrication and a factory recoil spring that has been replaced at the armorer recommended maintenance interval.

[Luke]

Any news yet? :)


Will these barrels be fine in a 9 major gun? Just thinking out loud

[Randy Lee]

Any news yet? :)


Will these barrels be fine in a 9 major gun? Just thinking out loud

If all goes well, you should see barrels before Thanksgiving.

While the case is fully supported, I would not recommend 9 major.

The barrel in 356 TSW is a different story... 😄

[agksimon]

Any news yet? :)


Will these barrels be fine in a 9 major gun? Just thinking out loud

Please explain the difference in a regular 9mm barrel and a major.

[Luke]

Please explain the difference in a regular 9mm barrel and a major.


I'm not really qualified to answer that because I don't really know. I just know 9 major produces a lot more pressure and some barrels are not ok with that. Be it material, thickness..idk. I just know there are some you do and some you don't. Hope this has helped :)

[Lomshek]

Please explain the difference in a regular 9mm barrel and a major.

Dimensionally the same. 9 Major is just hot rodded way beyond SAAMI spec's.

[Luke]

I thought he was talking about the barrel differences and not the round it self, just to clarify.

[Randy Lee]

9mm Major is something that has been relegated to IPSC open division pistols. Competitors are essentially pushing the 9mm case beyond the limits of established SAAMI pressures. That is why you do not see commercially available ammo at your local WalMart- it is too easy to have someone fire a 9 major round in an unsupported barrel with potentially catastrophic results.

The 9mm cartridge max pressure is around 35,000 psi if I recall correctly. I don't know if anyone has tested the MAP on 9mm Major.

For myself, I am planning on resurrecting the 356 TSW round, since it's case was designed around 50,000 psi max with the same cartridge OAL as the 9mm Luger. Think of it as .357 Sig ballistics but with the magazine capacity of a normal 9mm. Smith and Wesson had a good idea with this cartridge, but they dropped the ball in their marketing strategy...

[Savage Hands]

Are you looking to do Glock barrels as well Randy?

[Randy Lee]

Are you looking to do Glock barrels as well Randy?

Yes. Sometime mid to late 2016 we will start development.
But that is a different story as they say...

[Savage Hands]

Yes. Sometime mid to late 2016 we will start development.
But that is a different story as they say...

If you need another tester LMK :cool:

[agksimon]

Hi Randy,

Could you do me a favor? Would you test the 5" Pro SDI barrel with American Eagle 147 grain fmj flat point ammunition to see what group sizes you get?
I have 7000 rounds of it and don't want to sell/trade, if I don't have to. I am presently getting 3-5" benchrest groups with it at 25 yards, which is the best I've been able to obtain, after testing literally dozens of brands and bullet weights. Even CCI Lawman 147 grain fmj has wider groups than the AE.
If I can achieve 2-3" with your SDI barrel, I've be ecstatic. When I shoot IDPA and just miss the perforation and I'm an extra point down, I can't help but wonder if a better barrel would have made the difference.
Thanks,
Al Simon

[Randy Lee]

Hi Randy,

Could you do me a favor? Would you test the 5" Pro SDI barrel with American Eagle 147 grain fmj flat point ammunition to see what group sizes you get?
I have 7000 rounds of it and don't want to sell/trade, if I don't have to. I am presently getting 3-5" benchrest groups with it at 25 yards, which is the best I've been able to obtain, after testing literally dozens of brands and bullet weights. Even CCI Lawman 147 grain fmj has wider groups than the AE.
If I can achieve 2-3" with your SDI barrel, I've be ecstatic. When I shoot IDPA and just miss the perforation and I'm an extra point down, I can't help but wonder if a better barrel would have made the difference.
Thanks,
Al Simon

I'll try it on my next outing.

[KagA152]

Any testing been done with lead bullets? In particular 147gr lead flat point sized at .356" (SNS Casting). I shoot a lot of USPSA and 3 Gun and have been on the 2011 fence, but if I can get my 9L shooting sub MOA groups at 50 yards I'll spend that other $3,000 on more ammo, entry fees, and travel costs.

[ror123]

Any testing been done with lead bullets? In particular 147gr lead flat point sized at .356" (SNS Casting). I shoot a lot of USPSA and 3 Gun and have been on the 2011 fence, but if I can get my 9L shooting sub MOA groups at 50 yards I'll spend that other $3,000 on more ammo, entry fees, and travel costs.

Do the 147s have adequate speed to group acceptably (<=2") at 50 yards?

[Randy Lee]

We have not done any testing with lead bullets as the majority of shooters are using commercially manufactured ammunition. That being said, I see no reason why you could not get similar results using carefully developed hand loads.

[Randy Lee]

Using PPU/PRVI 147 gr JHP ammunition, we have been getting 2" or less at 50 yards. I saw similar results using 147 gr Zero bullets and Hornady 147 XTPs in handloads.

[Luke]

Sweet! You have any teaser videos you can post up? Shooting or installing?

[Randy Lee]

Sweet! You have any teaser videos you can post up? Shooting or installing?

We are working on both at the moment. :-)

[Luke]

Sweet! Thanks for keeping us updated man!!

[Randy Lee]

Hi Randy,

Could you do me a favor? Would you test the 5" Pro SDI barrel with American Eagle 147 grain fmj flat point ammunition to see what group sizes you get?
I have 7000 rounds of it and don't want to sell/trade, if I don't have to. I am presently getting 3-5" benchrest groups with it at 25 yards, which is the best I've been able to obtain, after testing literally dozens of brands and bullet weights. Even CCI Lawman 147 grain fmj has wider groups than the AE.
If I can achieve 2-3" with your SDI barrel, I've be ecstatic. When I shoot IDPA and just miss the perforation and I'm an extra point down, I can't help but wonder if a better barrel would have made the difference.
Thanks,
Al Simon

Al,

I was not able to test a 5" SDI, however it should be comparable to what I see in the 4.25". With 147 American Eagle, I was seeing just under 1.5". The Federal 147s have never demonstrated outstanding accuracy in any of the guns that I have shot them through. Acceptable yes, but not exceptional- be it through my CZs, 1911s or Glocks.

The PRVI 147 gr jhps simply have more uniform bullets- so the groupings are hovering around 1" or better with less recoil than the Federals.

[agksimon]

Al,

I was not able to test a 5" SDI, however it should be comparable to what I see in the 4.25". With 147 American Eagle, I was seeing just under 1.5". The Federal 147s have never demonstrated outstanding accuracy in any of the guns that I have shot them through. Acceptable yes, but not exceptional- be it through my CZs, 1911s or Glocks.

The PRVI 147 gr jhps simply have more uniform bullets- so the groupings are hovering around 1" or better with less recoil than the Federals.

The reason I went with the AE 147 fmj was it gave the tightest groups from my July 2015 factory gun and barrel of many brands and weights I tested, but if it will benchrest 2" or under, I will be doing cartwheels. After I shoot up what I have, I'll be watching posts from you and others, to see what gives the best groups and go with that.
Thanks for your persistence and hard work.
Al

Also, I presume the final product will still have a 1 in 10 twist, correct?

[Randy Lee]

The reason I went with the AE 147 fmj was it gave the tightest groups from my July 2015 factory gun and barrel of many brands and weights I tested, but if it will benchrest 2" or under, I will be doing cartwheels. After I shoot up what I have, I'll be watching posts from you and others, to see what gives the best groups and go with that.
Thanks for your persistence and hard work.
Al

Also, I presume the final product will still have a 1 in 10 twist, correct?

Yes on the 1:10. So far it is the only twist rate that consistently holds 1" or better with 115 thru 147 gr bullet weights, and showed minimal point of impact drift when changing between bullet weights (when using our gunsmith fit barrel).

[Luke]

Randy, if it has been mentioned before pease forgive me.

I know you can't give an exact time because you don't know how many people will be sending in there guns.. But is there a guesstimate on the turn around time for y'all to fit a barrel?

[Randy Lee]

Randy, if it has been mentioned before pease forgive me.

I know you can't give an exact time because you don't know how many people will be sending in there guns.. But is there a guesstimate on the turn around time for y'all to fit a barrel?

If everything works out the way that I hope, it should be under 3 weeks. If the customer wants us to test their factory barrel and/or want additional work done, that will extend out the timeline. Since we do not have our own range (yet), we have to set up at our local public range to do all the ransom rest testing. As a result, we have 20 minute shooting periods and a lot of down time as shooters go as far as 400 yards to tape/replace their targets...

[Luke]

https://store.apextactical.com/WebDirect/Products/Category?categoryId=54


Almost here!!!!!!

[Sam]

As a result, we have 20 minute shooting periods and a lot of down time as shooters go as far as 400 yards to tape/replace their targets...

But the scenery and weather are pretty.

[Randy Lee]

But the scenery and weather are pretty.

Very true!

[RJ]

https://store.apextactical.com/WebDirect/Products/Category?categoryId=54


Almost here!!!!!!

Very cool. :)

[Luke]

Any news on a date yet Mr. Lee? I'd love to have one before my next match (2 weeks) please please please please please!!

[Randy Lee]

<a href="http://s89.photobucket.com/user/ymish627/media/f8ca3d06-70fd-4857-aea5-f64f15899988.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k208/ymish627/f8ca3d06-70fd-4857-aea5-f64f15899988.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo f8ca3d06-70fd-4857-aea5-f64f15899988.jpg"/></a>

Proof that the barrel isn't vaporware. ;)
The first run is off to electropolish and then laser engraving. They will be available definitely before Thankgsgiving!

-Randy

[orionz06]

<a href="http://s89.photobucket.com/user/ymish627/media/f8ca3d06-70fd-4857-aea5-f64f15899988.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k208/ymish627/f8ca3d06-70fd-4857-aea5-f64f15899988.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo f8ca3d06-70fd-4857-aea5-f64f15899988.jpg"/></a>

Proof that the barrel isn't vaporware. ;)
The first run is off to electropolish and then laser engraving. They will be available definitely before Thankgsgiving!

-Randy

Looks like a 'shop. Just look at them pixels.




Sent from my Nokia 3310 using an owl

[Randy Lee]

Looks like a 'shop. Just look at them pixels.




Sent from my Nokia 3310 using an owl

Rockwell tester tells no lies....

[spinmove_]

<a href="http://s89.photobucket.com/user/ymish627/media/f8ca3d06-70fd-4857-aea5-f64f15899988.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k208/ymish627/f8ca3d06-70fd-4857-aea5-f64f15899988.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo f8ca3d06-70fd-4857-aea5-f64f15899988.jpg"/></a>

Proof that the barrel isn't vaporware. ;)
The first run is off to electropolish and then laser engraving. They will be available definitely before Thankgsgiving!

-Randy

That right there is a thing of beauty. I'm anxiously awaiting for the day that my skills increase to the point where getting one would actually give me a demonstrably positive benefit.

[MilkMyDuds]

This looks a lot like my BarSto barrel... though I look forward to the 1:10 twist rate (BarSto is 1:16) as I was having trouble to stabilize 147gr bullets through the BarSto.

[Randy Lee]

This looks a lot like my BarSto barrel... though I look forward to the 1:10 twist rate (BarSto is 1:16) as I was having trouble to stabilize 147gr bullets through the BarSto.

There are some significant differences besides the twist rate. For instance, during our accuracy testing, the Bar-Sto poi is substantially lower than that of the factory or our barrel. If you are using adjustable sights it isn't as much of a problem, however it becomes an issue trying to use factory fixed sights that come on the slide.

[Lomshek]

Looking forward to more groups like on the left target (known accurate Ruger 22/45) and getting rid of the shotgun-like spreads of the M&P targets.
All 10 round 25 yard groups.

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z67/bonecreekgunclub/Forum%20photos/MP9HBKTargetCollage.jpg

[Luke]

Yea you got a real bad one. Mine likes defensive ammo but hates everything else lol.


Any news on actual date yet!?

[MilkMyDuds]

My guesstimate is some time early next week, since Randy said "before Thanksgiving".

[agksimon]

This looks a lot like my BarSto barrel... though I look forward to the 1:10 twist rate (BarSto is 1:16) as I was having trouble to stabilize 147gr bullets through the BarSto.

This is exactly why I've waiting for the Apex Semi-drop in barrel. I have 7000 rounds (got a good bulk deal) of American Eagle 147 gr FMJ flat point. It gave the tightest groups from my stock 5" Pro barrel. Of course, those best groups are 3.5 to 5 inches at 25 yards. Nothing to write home about.

[Randy Lee]

Yea you got a real bad one. Mine likes defensive ammo but hates everything else lol.


Any news on actual date yet!?

We are trying our best to get them rolled out next week.

[Luke]

Thanks for the update Mr. Lee!

[MilkMyDuds]

Proof that the barrel isn't vaporware. ;)
The first run is off to electropolish and then laser engraving. They will be available definitely before Thankgsgiving!

-Randy

Is this coming online today? Or maybe after Thanksgiving?

[Luke]

Not gonna lie, my heart started to beat a little faster thinking randy had updated the thread with a link to buy them!

[Luke]

Called apex. Nice lady on the phone said no idea when and no release date yet. :( :( :(

[Randy Lee]

Is this coming online today? Or maybe after Thanksgiving?

Hi all,

We are targeting December 7th as a release date. We just finished up the installation video for the Semi Drop in on Tuesday. Brownells should also have them on release day.

[Erick Gelhaus]

4750

Posted on the Apex book face page a while ago, with this comment: "Just going to leave this right here for now. ‪#‎AccuracyIsComing‬ ‪#‎ApexGrade‬"

[GMSweet]

I'm looking forward to watching the video and reading the reviews. Sadly, I'm still working on being able to prove it's the arrow, but I'm no where near that yet. My last go around I rented a VP9 to shoot side by side with my M&P and both "grouped" about the same for me at 25 yards. I head back to the range this work for some live fire again after lots or dry fire work.

[CS Tactical]

4750

Posted on the Apex book face page a while ago, with this comment: "Just going to leave this right here for now. ‪#‎AccuracyIsComing‬ ‪#‎ApexGrade‬"


I'm waiting on an Apex Glock Barrel :cool:

[MilkMyDuds]

If I pre-ordered from Brownells today, I should get it as quickly as if I order from APEX on release day, right?

[agksimon]

If I pre-ordered from Brownells today, I should get it as quickly as if I order from APEX on release day, right?

Yes, maybe even faster, as Brownell's ships the same day. Release day is Monday, December 7, 2015

http://www.brownells.com/search/index.htm?k=apex+barrels&ksubmit=y

[MilkMyDuds]

Does anyone know the barrel diameter without having to slug it?

[GMSweet]

The semi drop-in fitting video has been posted on Apex Tactical's YouTube channel as well as an instructional blog post (http://www.apextactical.com/blog/index.php/gun-maintainence-tips/installing-the-apex-semi-drop-in-barrel/) on their website.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL9y1F-uCYE

[Kirk]

Pre-ordered my barrel through Brownells on Saturday. I just received a notification that the barrel is backordered. Any idea of a time frame? I just bought a tricked out M&P Pro strictly because of this barrel :)

[agksimon]

I ordered mine from Apex and it's on the way.

[Randy Lee]

Pre-ordered my barrel through Brownells on Saturday. I just received a notification that the barrel is backordered. Any idea of a time frame? I just bought a tricked out M&P Pro strictly because of this barrel :)

Hi Kirk,

We just spoke to Brownells. They said that the notification is standard for pre-orders. They allocated your barrel to you once it was ordered, so it is just a matter of them processing it through their massive warehouse.

Hope this helps,

Randy

[MilkMyDuds]

I am in the same boat.

I pre-ordered from Brownells on 12/3 last Thursday. I called Brownells on Monday after I got a "backorder" notification. The first lady said they don't know if the barrel is in stock. They don't have an ETA. The 2nd lady said they "allocated the item for my order", even though my order page shows backordered. I asked about shipping date, and they told me it should be Tuesday. Today is Wednesday, and still my order shows as backordered.

I think Brownellls just screwed this one up.

Tomorrow I am going to call to cancel the pre-order and order directly from APEX. I suggest everyone do the same. I am not sure if Brownells don't have these barrels, or they have been overwhelmed by the number of pre-orders, or they are just plainly simply slow and inefficient. My pre-order was placed in the morning when the pre-order started. I don't think they would run out that quickly.

Next time no more Brownells :(

[MilkMyDuds]

Yes, maybe even faster, as Brownell's ships the same day. Release day is Monday, December 7, 2015

http://www.brownells.com/search/index.htm?k=apex+barrels&ksubmit=y

See my post.

No Brownell definitely don't ship on the same day. I pre-ordered on 12/3 Thursday. Today is 12/9 Wednesday and my order is still showing up as "Backordered" :(

[Randy Lee]

See my post.

No Brownell definitely don't ship on the same day. I pre-ordered on 12/3 Thursday. Today is 12/9 Wednesday and my order is still showing up as "Backordered" :(

Hi All,

I contacted Brownells this evening. Rest assured that they are addressing the problem. They do have inventory, however during this time of year and with the recent events in San Bernardino the proverbial ball was dropped.
All the pre-orders that have not gone out will be handled personally tomorrow morning by our contact.

-Randy

[agksimon]

Brownell's is just plain slow. I ordered a pillar file, which was in stock (for adjusting barrel fit) on December 3rd. I ordered the barrel from Apex on December 7th. The barrel will be here December 11th and the file on December 14th. Guess the barrel fit will have to wait.

[MilkMyDuds]

Hi All,

I contacted Brownells this evening. Rest assured that they are addressing the problem. They do have inventory, however during this time of year and with the recent events in San Bernardino the proverbial ball was dropped.
All the pre-orders that have not gone out will be handled personally tomorrow morning by our contact.

-Randy

I called to cancel my order.

I got an email this morning from Brownell saying my order is being shipped on 12/10 today. However, looking at the shipping information, it says "UPS Mail Innovations" 7 business days. I selected $7.95 shipping and this is what I got... for $7.95 you can do USPS Priority 2-day. I do that all the time for small packages. This "UPS Mail Innovation" thing is what MidWayUSA uses and it generally takes 7 business day for something from Missouri to Texas (6 hours drive). Once it took 14 days, and I barred MidWayUSA for life since then. The problem with these companies is that they want to profit from the shipping charges, which is a big no-no in eCommerce. Look at Amazon.

I insisted on canceling my order but the lady won't let me. I told her the way they shipped the package I won't be home to receive it on 12/21 because my whole family would be out of town on Xmas from 12/20. The lady told me I have to ship it back on my own dime. What a joke. It will surely be lost in the mailbox during the 10 days I am out of town. I am definitely not going to be responsible for that. I guess I can only file a dispute with my credit card company now.

APEX, if I were you I would not be doing business with Brownells anymore. I am going to order directly form APEX after I am back from Xmas break.

[MilkMyDuds]

This whole "pre-order" thing is a failure in my opinion.

In my conversation with Brownells, they just received the barrels yesterday on 12/9 from APEX. The lady I talked to is "Sadie". There is no way they can keep up the promise of shipping the barrel this Monday since they really did not have it.

Too bad for me that I made plans based on the false promise.

[JBP55]

Milk Duds, After many posts everyone gets the point that you are unhappy and Brownells will have many happy customers without you.

[MilkMyDuds]

Milk Duds, After many posts everyone gets the point that you are unhappy and Brownells will have many happy customers without you.

2 = many
amazing math

[JBP55]

218/219/222/223

[Randy Lee]

This whole "pre-order" thing is a failure in my opinion.

In my conversation with Brownells, they just received the barrels yesterday on 12/9 from APEX. The lady I talked to is "Sadie". There is no way they can keep up the promise of shipping the barrel this Monday since they really did not have it.

Too bad for me that I made plans based on the false promise.

I believe Sadie is incorrect. Brownells had physical possession of the barrels on Friday of last week. We shipped overnight to ensure that they had them for launch on Monday. I do not know thie process, but my guess is that they were placed in the regular receiving queue instead of being fast tracked into their inventory database.

In any event, I am sorry that your experience with them was not as good as it should have been. Please PM me when you have time.

[MilkMyDuds]

Randy, thanks for following up on this.

I think it is purely Brownell's problem. It's not hard to be honest with the customers, but I have been repeatedly lied about with these customer representatives such that I am not surprised they would give me wrong information.

As to my order, I have disputed the charge with my credit card company. Obviously they charged my card on 12/9 but I just checked the order details on www.brownells.com and the order is still not shipped out yet as of today 12/11. It says a shipping label has been created, but UPS has not received the item as of this morning.

I ordered from APEX multiple times before, CAEK, FFS trigger etc. Never had a problem. Fast shipping. I am just telling whoever is interested in this barrel to order directly form APEX.

Brownells employees and fanbois please stay away. I am a very unhappy customer because of its shitty customer service. The fact is, today is my 40th birthday and I bought the barrel for myself as birthday gift. Now both MidwayUSA and Brownells are on my ban list. I wish Amazon would sell more gun accessories :(

[orionz06]

Knowing how theses companies work the folks you spoke with likely gave you the best info they had available. It's a shitty job and a shitty time with Christmas, festivus, Chanukah, San Bernadino, and B-Rock out there.

Back to the barrels...

Anyone get theirs yet?


Sent from my Nokia 3310 using an owl

[johnson]

orion, you don't know that CSRs are supposed to know updated details on thousands of products by the minute?

[MilkMyDuds]

orion, you don't know that CSRs are supposed to know updated details on thousands of products by the minute?

Every time I call into CSR they took at least a few minutes to look up their "system". Most times I got nothing because I am being told the "system is down" or they "system is extremely slow". It appears most of these companies are experiencing "unusual high call volume" 24x7.

I suppose their "system" is supposed to provide updated information of millions of products by the second. I am an IT guy and I know how these ERP/CSR systems work. No, I did not expect any human to do that, but they should at least relay true information to the customers at the bare minimum.

[agksimon]

Got my Apex 5" gunsmith fit barrel late this afternoon. Spent an hour, fitting the barrel to the slide. Didn't need to take anything off the front of the barrel, to fit it in the slide. Took about a half thousandth off each side of the hood for that part of the fit. Fitting the chamber/hood, into the slide was done very slowly. I found that dry erase marker worked better for me, than Dyekem, as it doesn't dry in place and shows a mark better.

After dinner, I worked on fitting the barrel lug to the frame. Being the gunsmith version, there was a lot of metal to remove. The fitting lug required me to disassemble and reassemble the gun literally a hundred times to mark and file the lug squarely. Fitting it took 2.5 hours alone, plus the hour for fitting it to the slide, I have 3.5 hours total into it.

I would not recommend everyone getting the gunsmith fit version. It is a lot of work to hand fit it and if you are not adept at it or impatient, it might not end well. Most people would find it a lot easier to install the semi-drop-in version.

It now locks up just like Randy said it would, in the video and there is no doubt it will shoot very tight groups. I'll be out at the range this coming Sunday, December 13, to benchrest it with several types and weights of ammunition. Results to follow.

[richiecotite]

^ Good stuff. I'm guessing most people that are DIY will rock with the semi fit version.

Looking forward to your results.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[agksimon]

^ Good stuff. I'm guessing most people that are DIY will rock with the semi fit version.

Looking forward to your results.

Results:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/455261-accuracy-here-fitting-apex-barrel-myself.html

[vicious_cb]

Any chance of seeing barsto compact and shield 9mm barrels? Id like to give my whole M&P family the barsto treatment :D.

[hrt4me]

Got my Apex 5" gunsmith fit barrel late this afternoon. Spent an hour fitting the barrel to the slide. Didn't need to take anything off the front of the barrel to fit it in the slide. Took about a half thousandth off each side of the hood for that part of the fit. Fitting the chamber/hood into the slide was done very slowly. I found that dry erase marker worked better for me, than Dyekem, as it doesn't dry in place and shows a mark better.

After dinner, I worked on fitting the barrel lug to the frame. Being the gunsmith version, there was a lot of metal to remove. The fitting lug required me to disassemble and reassemble the gun literally a hundred times to mark and file the lug squarely. Fitting it took 2.5 hours alone, plus the hour for fitting it to the slide, I have 3.5 hours total into it.

is there a video specific to the Gunsmith version, rather than the Semi-Drop-In offering?

did you use an end mill to remove the metal from the barrel, which is how I believe Apex recommends fitting their Gunsmith barrel?
or did you simply follow the Semi-Drop-In video for the Gunsmith version of the barrel?

is the Gunsmith version essentially the same as the Semi-Drop-In barrel with just more metal to be removed from each area (front of barrel, sides and rear of hood, frame fitting pad)?
or does the Gunsmith barrel have additional areas from which to remove metal for an even better/tighter/more consistent fit?

[Randy Lee]

is there a video specific to the Gunsmith version, rather than the Semi-Drop-In offering?

did you use an end mill to remove the metal from the barrel, which is how I believe Apex recommends fitting their Gunsmith barrel?
or did you simply follow the Semi-Drop-In video for the Gunsmith version of the barrel?

is the Gunsmith version essentially the same as the Semi-Drop-In barrel with just more metal to be removed from each area (front of barrel, sides and rear of hood, frame fitting pad)?
or does the Gunsmith barrel have additional areas from which to remove metal for an even better/tighter/more consistent fit?

We will have a video up shortly for the Gunsmith fit version. It is the same fitting process as the Semi Drop-in, except that the use of a mill will make fitting the bottom lug much faster. The material at the muzzle is the same. It is the material plus on the bottom lug that is different. The bottom lug has about .010" more material than the SDI in that location, so that it can be precisely fit to the individual slide and frame regardless of how much vertical play exists.

I use a .500" 4 flute carbide endmill to cut the bottom lug to the proper height.

[agksimon]

We will have a video up shortly for the Gunsmith fit version. It is the same fitting process as the Semi Drop-in, except that the use of a mill will make fitting the bottom lug much faster. The material at the muzzle is the same. It is the material plus on the bottom lug that is different. The bottom lug has about .010" more material than the SDI in that location, so that it can be precisely fit to the individual slide and frame regardless of how much vertical play exists.

I use a .500" 4 flute carbide endmill to cut the bottom lug to the proper height.

It was a weekend when I got my barrel and did not have access to a machinist at work, plus our company has a "No firearms on site" policy. I fit the barrel lug by hand, marking and filing off the high spots as needed. I kept doing this, until I got a proper fit, but it took 2.5 hours just for the lug and I had to disassemble and reassemble the gun close to a hundred times. It was very tedious and not for the impatient. It worked out well and I absolutely love the tight groups. I would highly recommend this barrel to anyone who wants better accuracy, especially IDPA/USPSA competitors, who routinely make 15-30 yard shots.
Randy, I can't thank you enough for all the hard work you put into bringing this to market. It's not just a home run, but out of the park.

[hrt4me]

We will have a video up shortly for the Gunsmith fit version. It is the same fitting process as the Semi Drop-in, except that the use of a mill will make fitting the bottom lug much faster. The material at the muzzle is the same. It is the material plus on the bottom lug that is different. The bottom lug has about .010" more material than the SDI in that location, so that it can be precisely fit to the individual slide and frame regardless of how much vertical play exists.

I use a .500" 4 flute carbide endmill to cut the bottom lug to the proper height.

thank you for the prompt reply and explanation

I'm looking forward to the video tutorial, as I'm curious what reference measurements you use to know exactly how much material to remove with your .500" 4 flute carbide endmill...?
I presume that is a one-time operation and not test fit and Dykem-mark repeatedly, as with the SDI fitting...?

[Randy Lee]

thank you for the prompt reply and explanation

I'm looking forward to the video tutorial, as I'm curious what reference measurements you use to know exactly how much material to remove with your .500" 4 flute carbide endmill...?
I presume that is a one-time operation and not test fit and Dykem-mark repeatedly, as with the SDI fitting...?

The easiest way is to measure from the horizontal top of the hood, to the flat of the bottom lug. It should measure .860" as it comes from us. The factory barrel will be around .842-.844 ish. I would make a single pass and cut the bottom to .855" and check if the gun will go into battery with that. If not, reduce the height to .852 or so. If you use parallels in the milling vise, you should be able to re-install the barrel and trim it in small increments until you get a proper fit.

[SecondsCount]

Results:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/455261-accuracy-here-fitting-apex-barrel-myself.html

Thanks for the writeup on your results.

I'm still curious if this fixes the accuracy issue that many were having with 115 grain ball ammo. The one I had shot pretty well with my 124 grain handloads but groups about doubled with 115 grain Federal.

[hrt4me]

The easiest way is to measure from the horizontal top of the hood, to the flat of the bottom lug. It should measure .860" as it comes from us. The factory barrel will be around .842-.844"-ish. I would make a single pass and cut the bottom to .855" and check if the gun will go into battery with that. If not, reduce the height to .852" or so. If you use parallels in the milling vise, you should be able to re-install the barrel and trim it in small increments until you get a proper fit.

thank you for the informative reply!
that helps a lot
I just ordered my barrel...

[Randy Lee]

thank you for the informative reply!
that helps a lot
I just ordered my barrel...

Thanks!

[hrt4me]

The easiest way is to measure from the horizontal top of the hood, to the flat of the bottom lug. It should measure .860" as it comes from us. The factory barrel will be around .842-.844"-ish. I would make a single pass and cut the bottom to .855" and check if the gun will go into battery with that. If not, reduce the height to .852" or so. If you use parallels in the milling vise, you should be able to re-install the barrel and trim it in small increments until you get a proper fit.

so the end mill is really only used for fitting the bottom lug to the frame?

do you fit the front of the Gunsmith barrel, as well as the sides and rear of its hood, in the same manner as the SDI version?

[Randy Lee]

so the end mill is really only used for fitting the bottom lug to the frame?

do you fit the front of the Gunsmith barrel, as well as the sides and rear of its hood, in the same manner as the SDI version?

Yes. I designed the GF barrel to require little to no fitting on the sides of the hood and muzzle. On some of the older slides you might need to trim material off the muzzle bell as in the SDI video, or if your slide has a finish like Cerakote or other build up finish applied (in this case, it's better to remove the buildup from inside the slide than take metal off of the barrel).

The barrel hood length is a little long- about .002" over nominal, so a little filing or milling may be needed to mate to your slide. The most critical fit is the bottom lug, and that is why more material was left there. once the barrel drops into the slide, check to make sure the barrel doesn't spring.
Sometimes the slide bores are at odd depths, and can cause unnecessary binding on the top of the muzzle. The barrel should drop into the slide, and using your thumb to press the bottom lug into battery, the barrel should not move at the muzzle end, nor should you see the chamber area move once you release thumb presure (slide held upside-down). If the barrel springs, you will need to remove some material off of the top of the muzzle area. Racking the slide once the bottom lug and hood are fitted will show burnish spots if this is the case.

[agksimon]

Thanks for the writeup on your results.

I'm still curious if this fixes the accuracy issue that many were having with 115 grain ball ammo. The one I had shot pretty well with my 124 grain handloads but groups about doubled with 115 grain Federal.

As you can see, I had fairly good luck with the Prvi Partizan 115 grain ammo, which gave me between 1.5 to 2 inches at 25yards. In all fairness, it was foggy and misty that day and at 70, my eyes get tired easily. I had been out there for quite a while when I shot that ammo and if the sunnier and I just started out, the groups probably would have been tighter. Even so, 1.5 to 2 inches is a huge improvement over the 4-6 inches I was averaging, sometimes even more.
I might try different ammo in the future, but I'm very happy with the American Eagle 147 grain FMJ flat point. It gave me the best groups, , about 1.5 inches low at 25 yards.

[Kirk]

I may be doing something incorrectly, but it appears that my semi-drop in fits my gun almost perfectly. I've had to do almost zero filing anywhere to get a great fit. Has anyone else experienced this? I just want to make sure I'm not overlooking something

[Randy Lee]

I may be doing something incorrectly, but it appears that my semi-drop in fits my gun almost perfectly. I've had to do almost zero filing anywhere to get a great fit. Has anyone else experienced this? I just want to make sure I'm not overlooking something

It sounds like the SDI dimensions are just right for you pistol. We wanted to take out all the guess work out of the installation process and still ensure proper fit with little to no fitting.

[hrt4me]

I may be doing something incorrectly, but it appears that my semi-drop in fits my gun almost perfectly. I've had to do almost zero filing anywhere to get a great fit. Has anyone else experienced this? I just want to make sure I'm not overlooking something

did the Apex SDI barrel nonetheless improve the accuracy of your M&P pistol?

[agksimon]

As long as it is a tight fit, within spec of What Apex says, you will be good to go. I had so much more play in mine, than any other M&P I checked, I decided to go with the gunsmith fit, as I didn't want to take a chance on having the SDI not be a 100% tight fit. It was worth the 3.5 hours it took to install and I'm glad I did.
Make sure you find an ammo that will give you the tightest groups, as they vary widely.