Reflections On Killing In The Line Of Duty

[JodyH]

This was posted in a thread over on TPI and I thought it would be a good conversation starter over here.

Some of my takeaways:
The most important shot is the first one.
The fastest draw is gun in hand.
Trust your instinct and act on it.
Take care of the problems in the order they are presented to you.
Shoot them in the head.

http://www.americanwarlibrary.com/deawatch/white/deafw-1.htm


Justifiable Homicide

Reflections On Killing In The Line Of Duty,
Mindset And Multiple Shot
Bob Pilgrim

What follows is part of a correspondence between two former federal agents, two veteran gunfighters.
<...>

[JHC]

Wow. Really interesting. I can recall for years, articles that argued that the ducking juking head was a near impossible target. But at real world distances, it's amazing what serious shooters can do on a 2" circle or 3x5 card so . . . . why not?

Thanks

[TCinVA]

Ayoob did an audio interview of a veteran Chicago PD officer (a Captain at the time, I believe) who had been in 14 shootings on duty. He figured out early on in his career that head shots were the OFF button on criminal aggression and made practicing close range head shots a priority...which served him very well in subsequent shootings.

The benefit of working speed hard when you're on the range is that it increases your ability to do everything when time is at a priority. I bet if we placed the speaker in the interview on a timer we'd find out he was fairly quick, certainly much better than the typical law enforcement shooter. I'd wager his actions in the moment would have looked pretty quick to the outside observer. I'd wager further that the time distortion of adrenaline and what was obviously superior commitment to training himself to a high degree of skill made the actual shooting portion of the fights he was involved in seem relatively easy.

Practicing to a high degree of skill gives you confidence and when you recognize need for that skill you just do it...which is probably why he made effective shots when other people were standing there frozen. He had enough mindset work to know what his sidearm was for, and he'd done enough training on the range to know that when the time came for him to use it he'd be able to stand and deliver.

These are not insignificant advantages.

I point also to the experience of Jared Reston who, when faced with an ambush and multiple gunshot wounds, didn't waste a clock cycle of brain power wondering whether or not he should kill the guy trying to murder him or whether or not he had the skill to make the shots necessary to bury the guy. He'd settled all that stuff long before the moment when it was necessary.

[Bill Lance]

Subscribed. This should bring out some excellent discussion.

[Kobalt60]

subscribed. geting some popcorn for this one

[Odin Bravo One]

Take care of the problems in the order they are presented to you.



This can't be right, can it? This is contradictory to IDPA rules!

IDPA wouldn't insist their shooters execute poor tactics and/or decision making would they?

[KeeFus]

This can't be right, can it? This is contradictory to IDPA rules!

IDPA wouldn't insist their shooters execute poor tactics and/or decision making would they?

Yes, they would.

Subscribed.

ETA: I have been trained since I started being a cop that I should condition my mind for many situations, including a gun fight. I think that type of mental training helped me survive. As TC says, practicing to a high degree gives you confidence, which I also think is where most agencies fail their officers (we only qualify once per year). Prior to my shooting I had only started shooting IDPA (yea, I know) for about 6 months but I was determined to get better with my weapon and not wait on the agency to better train me. By the time I had to use my weapon I could manipulate it under a fair amount of stress and do reasonably well. Mindset and gaining access to my weapon were an after thought when the crap hit the fan.

[Dr. No]

Ayoob did an audio interview of a veteran Chicago PD officer (a Captain at the time, I believe) who had been in 14 shootings on duty. He figured out early on in his career that head shots were the OFF button on criminal aggression and made practicing close range head shots a priority...which served him very well in subsequent shootings.

The benefit of working speed hard when you're on the range is that it increases your ability to do everything when time is at a priority. I bet if we placed the speaker in the interview on a timer we'd find out he was fairly quick, certainly much better than the typical law enforcement shooter. I'd wager his actions in the moment would have looked pretty quick to the outside observer. I'd wager further that the time distortion of adrenaline and what was obviously superior commitment to training himself to a high degree of skill made the actual shooting portion of the fights he was involved in seem relatively easy.

Practicing to a high degree of skill gives you confidence and when you recognize need for that skill you just do it...which is probably why he made effective shots when other people were standing there frozen. He had enough mindset work to know what his sidearm was for, and he'd done enough training on the range to know that when the time came for him to use it he'd be able to stand and deliver.

These are not insignificant advantages.

I point also to the experience of Jared Reston who, when faced with an ambush and multiple gunshot wounds, didn't waste a clock cycle of brain power wondering whether or not he should kill the guy trying to murder him or whether or not he had the skill to make the shots necessary to bury the guy. He'd settled all that stuff long before the moment when it was necessary.

While I don't disagree with your assessment of practice, I think the whole point of this article was mindset. This Officer had made up his mind that he was willing to pull the trigger, and once he had done it the first time it wasn't such a moral hurdle anymore. After that he realized that in order to stay alive he needed to commit to that shot without second guessing himself or thinking about it. If he thought he was going to be in a violent confrontation, he got his gun out of the holster. How fast was his draw? It didn't matter since he was already ahead of the curve. He had also pre-picked his target point ahead of time. This all eliminates a whole lot of work your mind has to do, again speeding up the process. This is not something that can be developed through practice. This is an experience driven skill, interacting with bad people on a regular basis, and having firmly come to terms with what it means to kill another human being.

I'd say it's a fair bet that he was a solid shooter, but relatively average in the scope of things. The difference is when bad shit happened, he was dedicated and knew where his line was. He did not hesitate and he did not think 'holy shit I'm about to kill this guy'.

And finally - Reston is a fucking warrior. There's a man who was determined, ignored extreme pain, finished the mission, and stood victorious. It's not often we see true examples like him.

[NickA]

Ayoob did an audio interview of a veteran Chicago PD officer (a Captain at the time, I believe) who had been in 14 shootings on duty. He figured out early on in his career that head shots were the OFF button on criminal aggression and made practicing close range head shots a priority...which served him very well in subsequent shootings.


Bob Stasch:
proarmspodcast.com/2010/05/23/052-interview-with-bob-stasch-of-the-chicago-police-department/
He and his partner put a ton of 45 LC and 44 mag (I think) rounds into a BG and still didn't kill him, resulting in the "F it, we're shooting dudes in the head from now on" attitude. Very cool interview, gonna give it another listen on the way to work tomorrow.

[JAD]

: I have been trained since I started being a cop that I should condition my mind for many situations, including a gun fight.

I picked that up from a tape of the Wednesday Lecture that I watched in like 1996. It occurs to me that the most valuable thing I ever learned about shootin' and fightin' was from a fuzzy VHS taped over an episode of, I think, MST3K. I did at least have a chance to thank him in person a couple of years later.


Jon
KC

[TCinVA]

While I don't disagree with your assessment of practice, I think the whole point of this article was mindset. This Officer had made up his mind that he was willing to pull the trigger, and once he had done it the first time it wasn't such a moral hurdle anymore. After that he realized that in order to stay alive he needed to commit to that shot without second guessing himself or thinking about it. If he thought he was going to be in a violent confrontation, he got his gun out of the holster. How fast was his draw? It didn't matter since he was already ahead of the curve.


There's abundant evidence that early recognition of impending violence and proactive action to deal with it before it actually gets hairy pays significant dividends.

...but even from a low ready or gun-on-bad guy placing an accurate shot on the head of a moving threat tends to require a higher-than-average degree of skill. He had to process a lot of stuff fast to make that sort of hit, and seemed to be able to do it effectively.

Show me someone who has the right mindset and I'll show you someone who takes their training and skill development seriously.

[KeeFus]

" I saw others in gunfights just stand frozen, unable to shoot, not knowing what to do."

Another take-away from that link. This phenomenon (fight, flight, or freeze) happened here in December. The officer went to a disturbance call and when confronted by a threat with a machete he ran. The 4th officer that arrived to that scene was confronted by the suspect and the suspect was dispatched with several rounds of .45 CCI GoldDots from a Gen 4 Glock. I spoke to the officer later on that morning and he said that he put the front sight in the suspects chest and he stopped firing when he saw the suspect drop. The suspect was about 5 feet from him when he fell.

The first officer that ran found it necessary to seek employment outside of law enforcement. I'm glad that he realized he wasn't cut out for this job before he got himself or someone else hurt. Speaking to those that knew him he was always boasting about himself and what he would do. I guess that was all bravado.

[TR675]

It's funny how White's experiences and lessons learned parallel Jim Cirillo's. And how they both are often ignored.

Or maybe it isn't funny at all.

[NickA]

While I don't disagree with your assessment of practice, I think the whole point of this article was mindset. This Officer had made up his mind that he was willing to pull the trigger, and once he had done it the first time it wasn't such a moral hurdle anymore. After that he realized that in order to stay alive he needed to commit to that shot without second guessing himself or thinking about it. If he thought he was going to be in a violent confrontation, he got his gun out of the holster. How fast was his draw? It didn't matter since he was already ahead of the curve. He had also pre-picked his target point ahead of time. This all eliminates a whole lot of work your mind has to do, again speeding up the process. This is not something that can be developed through practice. This is an experience driven skill, interacting with bad people on a regular basis, and having firmly come to terms with what it means to kill another human being.

I'd say it's a fair bet that he was a solid shooter, but relatively average in the scope of things. The difference is when bad shit happened, he was dedicated and knew where his line was. He did not hesitate and he did not think 'holy shit I'm about to kill this guy'.

And finally - Reston is a fucking warrior. There's a man who was determined, ignored extreme pain, finished the mission, and stood victorious. It's not often we see true examples like him.

The first paragraph of this post dovetails nicely with a point someone else made in another thread, that officers who survive one shooting are more likely to get in more shootings. They've gotten over that "moral hurdle".
Started through the Stasch interview again today and the first question Ayoob asks is what's the biggest lesson he's learned from his years on the street. Stasch' s answer, paraphrased - "at the end of the day I will be the one going home to my family, whatever I have to do to make that happen." Pretty much sums it up.

[Zhurdan]

Very interesting.

I've never had to drop the hammer on anyone, but I've been safety off and taking up slack on the trigger and I can tell you this... MANY things were going thru my mind at that point. I'm ultimately surprised, in hindsight, that I could "see" that the threat stopped being a threat and was able to back off the trigger. I was about 1/16" of an inch from irrevocably changing my and my families lives.

I'd never walk around talking about "warrior mindset" personally, as I've never been a "warrior", but I do know that the "it won't be me that dies" mentality is alive and well within my thick skull. The moral hurdle portion probably scares me the most. It sounds as though it may lessen the triggers that spell danger and shorten the distance between "it may be a lethal threat" and "it's gonna be a lethal threat". Does that correlate to more involvement in shootings or is it just the luck of the draw? (sorry for the pun)

[jlw]

There is an old joke about about a standoff with an armed guy on the porch of his house surrounded by cops telling him to drop his weapon, but the guy wouldn't.

Two old salts pull up past everybody else and get out of the car. One of them pulls his weapon and orders the guy to drop his gun, and he promptly complies and surrenders.

When asked why he surrendered when he did while ignoring all of the other cops the guy said, "Because when that one guy drew his gun the other guy stuck his fingers in his ears."

---

There has been so much stigma placed upon the use of force that the imperial we has almost made it where even a justifiable use of force is somehow looked at as being something wrong.

My boss got suspended for three days when he was a rookie cop for using a flashlight as an impact weapon as such was against policy. He was fighting a NFL linebacker at the time and was just about to shoot the guy when the guy just quit fighting. Our use of force policy is rather simple: Graham v. Conner​.

[Jay Cunningham]

"Because when that one guy drew his gun the other guy stuck his fingers in his ears."

That sounds like a Super Dave story someone told me.

[Al T.]

"Buck fever" is not just for deer hunters. I would imagine holding a perimeter and knowing a bad guy was coming would be very similar.

[TCinVA]

I think this video nicely demonstrates speed as it relates to gunfights....

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e0e_1370284601

...also the effectiveness of close-range headshots.

Edit for embed:


http://youtu.be/_BcNpwAG3O8

[Zhurdan]

I think this video nicely demonstrates speed as it relates to gunfights....

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e0e_1370284601

...also the effectiveness of close-range headshots.

Off switch is right! Holy smokes!

[Kobalt60]

I'm making my way through all of Pilgrim's "The White Report" articles. It's a fascinating history/biography and there are a lot of lessons there. I'd highly recommend that everyone read it, especially any FLEOs we might have here. Here's the link: http://www.americanwarlibrary.com/deawatch/white/deafw.htm

[Coyotesfan97]

One of my partners shot a guy in the head with an AR to end a hostage situation inside an apartment bedroom.It was instant incapacitation.

People thought I was joking when I told them I stuck my fingers in my ears when I knew the shot was going to break. The look on their faces was priceless when they realized I wasn't.


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[Sparks2112]

One of my partners shot a guy in the head with an AR to end a hostage situation inside an apartment bedroom.It was instant incapacitation.

People thought I was joking when I told them I stuck my fingers in my ears when I knew the shot was going to break. The look on their faces was priceless when they realized I wasn't.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Personally if I saw one cop pointing an AR at me while another put his fingers into his ears, I believe I'd be rethinking my actions. But that's just me.