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jslaker
05-01-2011, 09:43 PM
Rumblings from the press are that he's going to announce that Osama bin Laden has been killed.

TCinVA
05-01-2011, 09:46 PM
Good riddance.

Many thanks to the folks in the intelligence agencies and the military who have sacrificed day after day to make this bastard die. The politicians will try to claim credit...but we know who is really responsible.

May he burn in hell, and may all his fellow terrorist scumbags join him soon.

I say we declare tomorrow a holiday. Call it "Revenge Day" if we must.

jslaker
05-01-2011, 09:51 PM
WH will be streaming the address here:

www.whitehouse.gov/live/president-obama-delivers-statement

John Ralston
05-01-2011, 09:52 PM
I say we declare tomorrow a holiday. Call it "Revenge Day" if we must.

I agree, but since today is "May Day", I think I will go pick a flower to remember this monumental achievement :cool:

JM Campbell
05-01-2011, 09:53 PM
Thanks to the troops and not the talking heads up on Capital Hill.

Odin Bravo One
05-01-2011, 09:55 PM
It's not over.................

TCinVA
05-01-2011, 09:55 PM
I agree, but since today is "May Day", I think I will go pick a flower to remember this monumental achievement :cool:

What flower looks like the mutilated, shrapnel-ridden corpse of a terrorist?


It's not over.................

No, sir, it isn't...but the guy responsible for the worst terrorist attack on the US is dead. The hard working folks in JSOC put that bastard to sleep and it took a hell of a lot of work and sacrifice to send him screaming into that not-so-gentle night.

Good work, gents. If I could do it, drinks would be on me.

Kyle Reese
05-01-2011, 09:56 PM
While this is a monumental achievement, let's not forget there are still guys like Zawahiri and others in AQ's hierachy that deserve the same fate.

JDM
05-01-2011, 09:59 PM
Until a photo of his bullet and/or tungsten fragment ravaged corpse becomes available, I'll hold my applause.

TCinVA
05-01-2011, 10:02 PM
While this is a monumental achievement, let's not forget there are still guys like Zawahiri and others in AQ's hierachy that deserve the same fate.

There never seems to be a shortage of people whose violent death would make the world a happier place.

...but I still think we should at least look at the blue sky tomorrow and have a giggle at the demise of this particular scumbag.

jslaker
05-01-2011, 10:04 PM
Until a photo of his bullet and/or tungsten fragment ravaged corpse becomes available, I'll hold my applause.

Word has it that the body is in US custody, so...

LOKNLOD
05-01-2011, 10:06 PM
There never seems to be a shortage of people whose violent death would make the world a happier place.


Truer words...

--Josh H.

JDM
05-01-2011, 10:06 PM
Word has it that the body is in US custody, so...

This pleases me.

Mitchell, Esq.
05-01-2011, 10:09 PM
OBL's corpse impaled on a stake at Ground Zero is the only proper disposal method.

Or, hung from the Washington Monument.

fuse
05-01-2011, 10:19 PM
gg UBL

Prdator
05-01-2011, 10:20 PM
Yea he was apparently Killed in Islambad Pakistan, In a F'n Mansion with other Laden family!!!!!!

No telling what will happen now!!!! We may end up with troops in Pakistan.. I sure hope not though.

TCinVA
05-01-2011, 10:29 PM
Apparently this wasn't as impersonal as a missile...some are saying it was the result of a direct action mission and that the last thing that went through Osama's head was an American made bullet.

I'd like to buy the guys on that team some drinks.

fuse
05-01-2011, 10:39 PM
Apparently this wasn't as impersonal as a missile...some are saying it was the result of a direct action mission and that the last thing that went through Osama's head was an American made bullet.

I'd like to buy the guys on that team some drinks.

If that's true, I kind of wish he was taken alive and interrogated. Quite a tall order, I know, for perhaps the worlds most wanted man. I have heard UBL at all times had a couple body guards close by ready to gun him down if it looked like he could be captured--which of course would be unacceptable to AQ.

A guy can dream..

JDM
05-01-2011, 10:43 PM
SOFD-D or SEALs?

TCinVA
05-01-2011, 10:43 PM
Obviously I'm not the sort of guy who kicks down doors to make bad men meet their maker...but if I ever had someone like OBL in the lens of my aimpoint I do believe I'd feel the overwhelming urge to take out the trash.


SOFD-D or SEALs?

There's been a taskforce made up of lots of different folks hunting him down for a while.

JM Campbell
05-01-2011, 10:43 PM
So in the address it was a SF team and it happened today? Guess the reports are false about a week ago or Obama couldn't read the teleprompter.

virginiatactical
05-01-2011, 10:46 PM
Semper FI!! It wasnt Marines.. But I hope our actions in 3rd Battalions 8th Marines helped in these efforts!! Very satisfying .. Fuck you Osama Bin Laden I hope I get to torture you in Hell!

S/F

Noel A. Robleto
3/8 USMC

TCinVA
05-01-2011, 10:49 PM
So in the address it was a SF team and it happened today? Guess the reports are false about a week ago or Obama couldn't read the teleprompter.

I, for one, find it somewhat satisfying that the last thing he saw was the muzzle flash from an M4.

fuse
05-01-2011, 10:52 PM
Like I said, I bet it was his own guys.

They could not let him be captured.

Either way I'm good

Odin Bravo One
05-01-2011, 10:53 PM
SOFD-D or SEALs?

It doesn't really matter who. Does it?

JM Campbell
05-01-2011, 10:55 PM
I, for one, find it somewhat satisfying that the last thing he saw was the muzzle flash from an M4.

I agree fully.

JDM
05-01-2011, 10:56 PM
Regardless of whatever how's and why's, this is a fine day for America, and the world as a whole.

JDM
05-01-2011, 10:57 PM
It doesn't really matter who. Does it?

Does it matter? No. Would it be interesting to know? Absolutely.

TCinVA
05-01-2011, 10:58 PM
Like I said, I bet it was his own guys.

They could not let him be captured.

Either way I'm good

If the full might of the US Special Operations community came a-knocking, I would imagine that their hands were kind of full in the few short moments they had on the earth before they had their ticket to the afterlife punched by American projectiles.

TCinVA
05-01-2011, 11:01 PM
Does it matter? No. Would it be interesting to know? Absolutely.

It was a joint effort folks...if you want to know who was responsible, it was the U.S. Military and the intelligence agencies. There's lots of credit deserved by a lot of people.

I think that's Sean's point.

jslaker
05-01-2011, 11:01 PM
Might be worthwhile for an admin to update the thread title with the good news.

JDM
05-01-2011, 11:02 PM
...the full might of the US Special Operations community came a-knocking...

A more frightening thought, I cannot conceive.

fuse
05-01-2011, 11:11 PM
If the full might of the US Special Operations community came a-knocking, I would imagine that their hands were kind of full in the few short moments they had on the earth before they had their ticket to the afterlife punched by American projectiles.

Watched a very interesting documentary a couple years ago where a former aq bodyguard said there is always 24/7 at least one guy with an AK at the ready whose job is to off UBL in case of a situation like this one, to prevent capture. Guys are some serious fuckers.

Also, what are the odds of uniformed military personnel being this deep in the frontier of Pakistan? Seems like this would be the work of ... "civilians".

Regardless what a great night

TCinVA
05-01-2011, 11:14 PM
Also, what are the odds of uniformed military personnel being this deep in the frontier of Pakistan?


They go where the problems are. ;)

JM Campbell
05-01-2011, 11:16 PM
I want to read the AAR.

jslaker
05-01-2011, 11:16 PM
SOFD-D or SEALs?

Jeremy Scahill just tweeted he's been told SEAL Team 6.

http://twitter.com/#!/jeremyscahill

TCinVA
05-01-2011, 11:21 PM
Jeremy Scahill just tweeted he's been told SEAL Team 6.

http://twitter.com/#!/jeremyscahill

Given Scahill's track record of being a sensationalist, self-aggrandizing whackadoo, I'd be reluctant to listen to anything he has to say.

The truth is that lots of people sacrificed a great deal to make this happen. The people who made this happen will be right back at it tomorrow going after the next guy on the list.

JDM
05-01-2011, 11:26 PM
The people who made this happen will be right back at it tomorrow going after the next guy on the list.

Perhaps this is the most remarkable point yet.

God Bless every single individual that takes up arms for our country.

jslaker
05-01-2011, 11:29 PM
Marc Ambinder is also reporting SEAL Team 6. Also seems to have confirmation from the WH that the Pakistanis weren't told about the operation ahead of time.


To summarize: 40 minute JSOC raid; two helos, one drone; 4 KIA, inc OBL; DevGru (Seal Team Six) did shooting; only cas was US helocopter

http://twitter.com/#!/marcambinder

dookie1481
05-01-2011, 11:32 PM
Also seems to have confirmation from the WH that the Pakistanis weren't told about the operation ahead of time.

Which is probably why it was successful.

TCinVA
05-01-2011, 11:33 PM
No doubt.

F-Trooper05
05-01-2011, 11:50 PM
Regardless what a great night

Hear, Hear!

Rot in HELL cocksucker!

fuse
05-02-2011, 12:02 AM
They go where the problems are. ;)

News says helicopters taking off from a base inside Pakistan, and that the whole operation took 40 minutes.

I think you may be right, good sir.

KeeFus
05-02-2011, 12:12 AM
Glad that goat fucking prick is dead. Ahmadinejad & Gaddafi should take notice.

fuse
05-02-2011, 12:54 AM
http://i.imgur.com/1krKD.png

jslaker
05-02-2011, 01:04 AM
Ahmadinejad & Gaddafi should take notice.
Gaddhafi only narrowly missed getting blown up by a NATO airstrike last week. Bomb fell on the wrong end of the building he was in and got his son instead.

Frank B
05-02-2011, 02:01 AM
Sounds good so far. Regards the nature of AQ Network, it won´t change much. There are some others, who seek revenge.

WDW
05-02-2011, 02:04 AM
Sweet!!!

BigT
05-02-2011, 04:15 AM
The world is a better place today.

TCinVA
05-02-2011, 06:59 AM
Pakistan has some 'splainin' to do.

TGS
05-02-2011, 07:17 AM
Pakistan has some 'splainin' to do.

What, you mean because Osama's neighbors were Pakistani officers?


Nooooooo.....

They were doing their best to help us, I'm sure.....

Pistol Shooter
05-02-2011, 07:25 AM
Pakistan has some 'splainin' to do.

Pakistan has a LOT of explaining to do. :mad:

It will be interesting to see what develops.

MechEng
05-02-2011, 07:55 AM
US policy on Pakistan has always followed the old Irish saying...

“The Devil you know is better than the Devil you don’t.”

SteveK
05-02-2011, 10:06 AM
Hope they stuffed him with sausage and wrapped him in bacon before they fed him to the sharks.

WobblyPossum
05-02-2011, 10:11 AM
I would love the chance to buy those guys a beer. This couldn't have turned out any better. They got Osama and one of his sons with no US or civilian casualties.

TGS
05-02-2011, 11:58 AM
Hope they stuffed him with sausage and wrapped him in bacon before they fed him to the sharks.

So I take it you're a fan of "Blackjack" Pershing ;)

SteveK
05-02-2011, 12:18 PM
The General knew how to make a statement...

ToddG
05-02-2011, 12:26 PM
Let's all take a moment to remember why we all wanted Osama dead, and thank all the Americans from whatever agency or unit that played a role in avenging those innocent victims of extremism and madness.

WobblyPossum
05-02-2011, 12:41 PM
Let's all take a moment to remember why we all wanted Osama dead, and thank all the Americans from whatever agency or unit that played a role in avenging those innocent victims of extremism and madness.

Well said.

ToddG
05-02-2011, 12:43 PM
Doh. Fixed it. Finger is in a splint and my typing has been way off. That's why I've posted so little.

Shellback
05-02-2011, 12:59 PM
Why would they waste their time on giving him religious funeral rites before his "burial at sea" and then publicizing it? http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/05/02/bin-laden-given-religious-funeral-prior-sea-burial/

TCinVA
05-02-2011, 01:20 PM
...because the idea is to show the world, especially the sort of people who are prone to riot and kill people if they think you insulted their religion in any way, that the US military treated even this dirtbag with respect for the religion he hijacked and turned into a weapon of mass murder.

That sort of thing tends to be important if you're involved in multiple counter-insurgency operations.

Kyle Reese
05-02-2011, 01:21 PM
Good news for America has been in very short supply in recent years. My heartfelt thanks and eternal gratitude go to the individuals who served up some epic karmic justice on OBL, and also to those that have given everything since the GWOT began a decade ago.

Today the sky seemed a little bluer, water a little cleaner, and the sun a little brighter.

WobblyPossum
05-02-2011, 01:23 PM
Why would they waste their time on giving him religious funeral rites before his "burial at sea" and then publicizing it? http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/05/02/bin-laden-given-religious-funeral-prior-sea-burial/

This way we don't give any more ammunition to the enemy's propaganda machine. I think the knowledge that US forces did something contrary to Muslim practices in the post-mortem treatment of a man very well respected by radical Islam would have prompted a lot of angry young men to join the "jihad." This way, we can say we acted in a professional manner with respect to the man's faith. I read that the purpose of a burial at sea was to prevent a grave from becoming a respected site that might draw more radicals to visit and find strength in.

ETA: Looks like TC beat me to it.

rsa-otc
05-02-2011, 01:42 PM
If we want the world to believe we are better than the opposition we have to act like it. To do anything else would undermine that belief.

Kyle Reese
05-02-2011, 01:46 PM
Handling OBL's corpse in accordance with Islamic law takes a little more wind out of the sails of the Islamists, who cannot score a propaganda coup that way. Asymmetric warfare and all that....

Shellback
05-02-2011, 01:55 PM
I get it but I would've preferred a public execution. I imagine there will be quite a bit of backlash regardless of how respectful we were to his corpse.

SteveK
05-02-2011, 02:12 PM
Well, there was no way he would have been taken alive and I believe that the orders given were probably to that effect. There was no reason to put on a dog and pony show for the rest of the world. In fact, even though his death deals a great blow to al Qaeda, the war on terrorism will continue, we all knew that when it started.

Ga Shooter
05-02-2011, 02:15 PM
I get it but I would've preferred a public execution. I imagine there will be quite a bit of backlash regardless of how respectful we were to his corpse.
I agree and hope they packed his garmets with pork! All that aside I am very gratefull to all the armed forces who have given so much during this war and especially the ones for the raid last night.

But be warned this war is no where near over and there will be in my opinion bloodshed to come from what was accomlished last night.

The next question will Obama be so quick to act and take credit for what is to come?

MechEng
05-02-2011, 03:09 PM
Handling OBL's corpse in accordance with Islamic law takes a little more wind out of the sails of the Islamists, who cannot score a propaganda coup that way. Asymmetric warfare and all that....

I agree the way they handled it was probably the best option. If I predicted the end of Osama it would have been to use the usual plan A: Half a dozen 2000 lb. bombs, sift through the rubble, then wonder for the rest of eternity if he is dead or hanging out in vegas like Elvis.

Corey
05-03-2011, 06:08 PM
In 2001 I worked in deceased accounts at what was then Chase Manhattan Bank. There were four of us that got assigned to handle all the 9/11 accounts. The death certificates started coming in about the beginning of November 2001. The first one to come across my desk was a NYC firefighter. At one point I counted over 600 death certificates on my desk that all said the same thing "Manner of death: homicide. Cause of death: physical injuries; body not found." I had a death certificate for an elderly passenger on Flight 93 that listed the cause of death as "Fragmentation blunt force trauma." Processing the accounts of all the victims was a process of reliving that day every day for months. While the war is far from over, a certain amount of justice has been delivered for those people and their families and I will take quiet satisfaction in that.

Thank you to all the members of our armed services and intelligence agencies. Everyone from the guy in the recruiting office in a neighborhood strip mall to the cooks on the Navy ships in the Arabian see, to the maintainence crews for the aircraft and the analysts and translators in their cubicles at Langley to the guys that kicked in the door. They all stepped up and answered the call and did what their country asked of them. This is a victory for all of them.

And on a humorous note, I read this on a political humor blog and had to share it:
"If I were an ammo manufacturer, I’d be rushing to check if my bullets were used to kill Osama, because that would make a great ad campaign."

SmokeJumper
05-04-2011, 12:27 AM
God Bless America and all our our US Troops and the guys working Intel, but it ain't over.......

Pistol Shooter
05-04-2011, 01:01 PM
"In an interview with 60 Minutes, President Obama says he won't release bin Laden images taken to prove his death." (CBSNews Twitter)

"President Obama has decided not to release photographs of Osama bin Laden's body, a senior official tells NBC News" (Breaking News Twitter)

Really pisses me off. :mad:

Nearly ten years waiting to find out that gutless murdering bastard got what was coming to him and now, no pictures.

KentF
05-04-2011, 01:12 PM
I can't say I'm surprised. I see both sides of the argument. My guess is they will get "leaked" at a later date. Those that don't want to believe it will just say the photos have been "photoshoped" anyway, especially since a faked photo has already been on the 'net.

Mitchell, Esq.
05-04-2011, 02:21 PM
They should have brought the body back, impailed it on a stake, then set it out for the crows.

And put the body of his wife, kids and 2,000 other random people from the neighborhood of the compound on stakes surrounding him.

I mean, hell. If we are going to be hated as Americans, lets be hated for something meaningful!

But that's just my opinion.
And I'm probably wrong.
And slightly sociopathic. :o

BNg47
05-04-2011, 02:36 PM
Doh. Fixed it. Finger is in a splint and my typing has been way off. That's why I've posted so little.

That 7.5lb trigger pull on the G17 is a freak'n killer isn't it. :D

Switch up to using the middle finger like that guy from the Sniper movie. :cool:

turbolag23
05-04-2011, 02:44 PM
whats so different about this picture compared to all the other war time casualty pictures that are released?

tremiles
05-04-2011, 03:28 PM
Releasing the official photos of his corpse only encourages martyrdom by his followers. By not releasing images of the dead body, we minimize him. Forget about bin Laden. There's nothing left of him to remember by now.

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk

TCinVA
05-04-2011, 04:49 PM
I remember seeing people leap to their deaths from the WTC. I remember certain segments of the world celebrating when news of it reached them.

I must confess to being completely unconcerned with how some groups feel about pictures of a dead mass murderer.

Show them.

MechEng
05-04-2011, 05:37 PM
Assaulted the compound, shot him in the face, flew his carcass out and dumped him in the ocean. The end of Osama only took a few measly hours (Kudos to DEVGRU) but the drama & arm chair quarterbacking will go on for freaking ever.

It really doesn't matter one way or another weather they release the photos or not. The conspiracy morons won't change their minds and Islamic Rage Boy will just find some other reason to burn the American Flag.

JHC
05-04-2011, 06:05 PM
Assaulted the compound, shot him in the face, flew his carcass out and dumped him in the ocean. The end of Osama only took a few measly hours (Kudos to DEVGRU) but the drama & arm chair quarterbacking will go on for freaking ever.

It really doesn't matter one way or another weather they release the photos or not. The conspiracy morons won't change their minds and Islamic Rage Boy will just find some other reason to burn the American Flag.

That about sums it up IMO. As far as doubters go, our official position should be "you don't believe it, piss on ya."

ubervic
05-04-2011, 06:29 PM
Assaulted the compound, shot him in the face, flew his carcass out and dumped him in the ocean. The end of Osama only took a few measly hours (Kudos to DEVGRU) but the drama & arm chair quarterbacking will go on for freaking ever.

It really doesn't matter one way or another weather they release the photos or not. The conspiracy morons won't change their minds and Islamic Rage Boy will just find some other reason to burn the American Flag.

THIS

I'm not eager to go quid-pro-quo with barbarians who may derive satisfaction from displaying the body of their enemy. He is gone, and this is enough for me.

ToddG
05-04-2011, 06:42 PM
I still don't get all the calls for "they should have put his head on a stake at Ground Zero."

Now, "they should have transported his body from town to town so we could all take turns putting a bullet into him" I could get behind...

SecondsCount
05-04-2011, 08:38 PM
I still don't get all the calls for "they should have put his head on a stake at Ground Zero."

Now, "they should have transported his body from town to town so we could all take turns putting a bullet into him" I could get behind...
But there wouldn't be anything left of him after leaving Rockville. :cool:

jslaker
05-05-2011, 12:49 AM
I think Ari Fleischer probably said it best:

"Good decision not 2 release UBL photos. If u doubt he's dead, no photo will satisfy. For the rest of us, Navy Seals don't miss"

http://twitter.com/#!/AriFleischer/status/65839108936826880

Odin Bravo One
05-05-2011, 01:35 AM
Enough has been released about this event as it is. No need to add to it. It might be all the rage right now, and neat to talk about for the ignorant and those who do not know of what they speak, but the mass flow of (dis)information is causing a ton of headaches for people who still have work to do.

MechEng
05-05-2011, 09:50 AM
Enough has been released about this event as it is. No need to add to it. It might be all the rage right now, and neat to talk about for the ignorant and those who do not know of what they speak, but the mass flow of (dis)information is causing a ton of headaches for people who still have work to do.

Well Said. I think too much information has been released.

OPSEC is not a new concept.

“Even minutiae should have a place in our collection, for things of a seemingly trifling nature when enjoyed with others of a more serious cast may lead to valuable conclusion.”

Rebel Leader: George Washington, ca 1776

LittleLebowski
05-05-2011, 09:58 AM
Bin Laden death and pictures threads merged.

Beamish
05-05-2011, 10:55 AM
I remember seeing people leap to their deaths from the WTC. I remember certain segments of the world celebrating when news of it reached them.

I must confess to being completely unconcerned with how some groups feel about pictures of a dead mass murderer.

Show them.
That. All of that.

LittleLebowski
05-05-2011, 10:58 AM
I don't care if the pics are released but I also could care less if they are not.

KentF
05-05-2011, 11:04 AM
I could have sworn this thread was closed earlier this morning. :confused:

ToddG
05-05-2011, 11:30 AM
Last night, I had dinner with my parents, brother, and sister-in-law... most of whom are a few dozen notches to the left of me on the political scale. At one point, the whole "I was really disappointed in the way so many Americans are celebrating a human being's death" thing came up.

Needless to say, I was not in agreement. :mad:

"Now they just have another reason to attack us!" Like they needed more reasons?

"We look as bad as they do when they riot!" Are you frakking kidding me? They celebrate the wholesale slaughter of thousands of innocent unsuspecting people. We celebrate justice being delivered to the cranial vault of the world's most wanted criminal terrorist.

If this had happened in 2002 there wouldn't be a single person questioning the applause. But a certain segment of the population has already forgotten what 9/11 was really like, they're blind to what it's done to our country, and they're willingly fooling themselves into believing it won't happen again. And so now, having all but forgotten that we're still engaged in an armed conflict (because it's not as sexy when a Democratic President is fighting the war he promised to end), they're acting like UBL's death is kick-starting a long forgotten fight.

LittleLebowski
05-05-2011, 11:33 AM
I could have sworn this thread was closed earlier this morning. :confused:

And now it's not. Carry on.

Kyle Reese
05-05-2011, 11:41 AM
I talked to some friends / family in Germany about the passing of OBL, and they basically said the same thing. Of course, their politics can be classified as far left by US standards. They're against any and all war, guns, the military, etc.

I always remind them that without the US military, they'd be speaking Russian now.

MikeO
05-05-2011, 12:14 PM
I think some of the wrinkles in this are explained as cover story BS to protect the Paks who finally ratted him out...

Some folks around here (Nuevo Mexico) are a might pissed off OBL's code name was "Geronimo". I can see why that was picked (both hard to find), and why some (not all) are pissed (one man's terrorist is another's hero and all that).

Darn, no pics. I guess helmet cam video is out too? ;)

So, have ya walked into a bar and ordered your bin Laden yet? Ya know, two shots and a splash of water! :D

jslaker
05-05-2011, 12:44 PM
It's pretty safe to say that as a rule I lean a fair bit further left than most of the people here politically. That said, while I found the literal face-paint-and-flags-in the street and chants of "U-S-A" a bit odd, it was kind of the same type of bemusement that I get from rabid sports fans. I'm far too analytical in nature and I just don't have that kind of emotional reaction to things.

That said, I think it's even sillier to suggest it represents some sort equivalence to celebrating the death of innocents.

NickA
05-05-2011, 02:55 PM
Great job and many thanks to all those involved in this mission, whether they carried a gun, a fuel hose, a serving spoon or whatever- heroes all, as are any that make the sacrifice to wear the uniform.
The pictures are a lose /lose either way, but I guess it's more the "high road" to not release them.
Personally I wonder if we should have said NOTHING for a few days at least. Would have been interesting to see who reacted and how before it went public, and given some time to analyze and exploit the info collected before the rest of the roaches crawl under rocks.

MDS
05-05-2011, 06:40 PM
But a certain segment of the population has already forgotten what 9/11 was really like, they're blind to what it's done to our country, and they're willingly fooling themselves into believing it won't happen again.

I try to stay out of political arguments. But this is the thing that pisses me off. There will always be assholes of one stripe or another, who think that "their" way is the "right" way, and who think that lethal force is justified when their life, limb, or cherished beliefs are in danger. The weak-bellied among us, who can't face up to that fact, go through all sorts of contortionist logic to dream up mechanisms for avoiding the plain truth. That's usually fine with me, except that these same folks apparently have no trouble justifying lethal force to make me part of their weak-bellied schemes.

The bolded text above is at the heart of the matter, and it happens over and over and over. In the way of a relevant example, consider: in the days after 9/11, a terrorist with a knife/gun/whatever would have had to kill all the passengers and crew before they would have willingly allowed the terrorists to control the plane/train/whatever. I always thought of that as the silver lining of 9/11 - that it stiffened America's spine a bit. Unfortunately, it seems our spine is growing as flaccid as ever before 9/11, and maybe more so.

I'm of Cuban descent, and I've always said that the most evil part of Castro's genius is that in one generation, he turned a proud, fierce, independent people into sniveling, pathetic cowards. Growing up in Miami, I got to see the change first-hand in the kind of people coming to the US from there - when I was a kid it was mostly hard-working folks intent on improving themselves; as time passed, it was more and more just unmotivated loafers looking for welfare. Today, in some parts of this country, I get an eerie deja-vu all over again...

jslaker
05-05-2011, 07:49 PM
Something that's been interesting for me as somebody who was a relatively early supporter of President Obama:

A. the number of his supporters who apparently didn't listen to him during the 2008 campaign and have been surprised that he's done basically just what he said he would re: Afghanistan.

B. That he's actually turned out to be far more willing to get his hands dirty when necessary than I expected. One of my primary reservations about Obama was that I was concerned he might turn out to be another Carter; somebody that would allow their morality to paralyze them and end up being pretty ineffective as CinC as a result.

Given bin Laden's death, the handling of the Somali pirate hostage situation, targeted killings of Al Qaeda leaders in countries like Somalia and Yemen, the marked increase in drone attacks since he took office... I'm somewhat glad I appear to have been at least partially wrong on that note. He seems to be okay with killing people that fit the description of the bad guys.

(And for the record, there are plenty of avenues where Obama has been totally disappointing to me).

JHC
05-05-2011, 07:55 PM
It's pretty safe to say that as a rule I lean a fair bit further left than most of the people here politically. That said, while I found the literal face-paint-and-flags-in the street and chants of "U-S-A" a bit odd, it was kind of the same type of bemusement that I get from rabid sports fans. I'm far too analytical in nature and I just don't have that kind of emotional reaction to things.

That said, I think it's even sillier to suggest it represents some sort equivalence to celebrating the death of innocents.

On the celebration topic, this piece has a pretty interesting take on it. I'm all for triumphant celebration of victory - including those focused specifically on the killing of mass murdering jihadis. Be they a cowering OBL or Taliban by the dozen.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/266493/most-justified-jubilation-daniel-krauthammer?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4dc2d26ab3c2d021%2C0

Kyle Reese
05-05-2011, 08:01 PM
I found it to be refreshing in the sense that nationalism isn't dead in America. I can't begrudge someone from celebrating the demise of a hated and mortal foe, and if people want to cheer "USA, USA", more power to 'em. The American people, by and large, have been so beaten up by the media and political correctness that I found such patriotic spontaneity to be a welcome change from the anti-American drivel we're subjected to.


It's pretty safe to say that as a rule I lean a fair bit further left than most of the people here politically. That said, while I found the literal face-paint-and-flags-in the street and chants of "U-S-A" a bit odd, it was kind of the same type of bemusement that I get from rabid sports fans. I'm far too analytical in nature and I just don't have that kind of emotional reaction to things.

That said, I think it's even sillier to suggest it represents some sort equivalence to celebrating the death of innocents.

ToddG
05-05-2011, 08:25 PM
I always remind them that without the US military, they'd be speaking Russian now.

In fairness, without the US military, most of Europe would be speaking German now...

Kyle Reese
05-05-2011, 08:30 PM
Touche! :)



In fairness, without the US military, most of Europe would be speaking German now...

jslaker
05-05-2011, 09:23 PM
I found it to be refreshing in the sense that nationalism isn't dead in America. I can't begrudge someone from celebrating the demise of a hated and mortal foe, and if people want to cheer "USA, USA", more power to 'em. The American people, by and large, have been so beaten up by the media and political correctness that I found such patriotic spontaneity to be a welcome change from the anti-American drivel we're subjected to.

Like I said, I don't begrudge them for it. I just don't "get it" personally. And like I also said, I have the same type reaction to rabid sports fans (which is what the whole thing reminded me most of). It's a personality thing, really. I just tend to be very analytical about things and not particularly prone to strong emotional reactions about most things. If that's their thing? More power to'em. It's just strange for me as an observer.

peterb
05-05-2011, 09:33 PM
Agree. Thank all those responsible, check off the OBL box, and move on. There's more work to do.

The big plus is that the US has had a global reputation for a short attention span when it comes to foreign policy. This goes a long way to refute that.

TCinVA
05-05-2011, 10:10 PM
Regarding the celebrations of OBL's death:

OBL is the reason why you have to have a colonoscopy to get on a plane. He's the reason why you can't even go to a show in NYC without some jackass trying to kill you with a car bomb.

Whether we like to admit it or not, his livestock molesting fingers have touched all of our lives in the sort of ways that you can't describe to the psychologist with one of those courtroom dolls.

If we ignore his murder of tens of thousands, the hundreds of billions we've lost trying to put his evil genie back in the bottle, the sacrifices he forced those in our armed services to make on a personal level...his demise still leaves plenty of room for celebration.

jslaker
05-05-2011, 10:29 PM
Regarding the celebrations of OBL's death:

OBL is the reason why you have to have a colonoscopy to get on a plane. He's the reason why you can't even go to a show in NYC without some jackass trying to kill you with a car bomb.

Unfortunately, I'd argue that has as much to do with our society's desire for quick and easy "answers" as it did with OBL himself. But that's likely dragging the thread too far offtopic.