Springfield ---XD(M) 9mm and 40 S&W----

[Artur]

Hi All ;)

I have a few questions

1) How many shots the weapon can withstand cleaning ??
2) What is the best ammunition for these weapons FMJ or JHP ??
3) How work the trigger ??
4) What is the best XD (M) or Glock or Smith Wesson M&P 9mm ??
5) Is this weapon is often guarantee ??

Regards from Poland
Artur

[Kyle Reese]

Hi Artur,
The XD series of handguns are not well regarded by those that shoot for a living, nor do they offer anything that an HK P30/Glock 17 Gen 3/S&W M&P 9 do not.

If you haven't already made the purchase, I'd take a hard look one of the 3 handguns that I mentioned.

However, to answer your questions:

1- Unknown, and depends on a myriad of other factors
2- That depends- are you using it for range duty or self defence?
3- The XD is a striker fired handgun, with a grip safety
4- M&P
5- I assume you're talking about the warranty- I'm not sure how it's handled in Europe.

Best of luck to you and welcome to our forum!

:cool:


Hi All ;)

I have a few questions

1) How many shots the weapon can withstand cleaning ??
2) What is the best ammunition for these weapons FMJ or JHP ??
3) How work the trigger ??
4) What is the best XD (M) or Glock or Smith Wesson M&P 9mm ??
5) Is this weapon is often guarantee ??

Regards from Poland
Artur

[Frank B]

4- M&P

There are only very few M&P´s on the market, at least here in Germany.
You can get more support, parts, holster etc. for a Glock or an H&K.

[TheNewbie]

I was issued an XDM .40 as a duty weapon. I had so many relability problems with it, that for a while I carried an CZ-P01 as a back up weapon.....and I am a small guy.

Now I might have had a lemon, and I am not saying every XDM is bad. Just the one I had was.

Outside of that, I did not like the grip safety or how the weapon balanced.

I now carry and M&P 9mm. I would look at the M&P, Glock, Ruger, and HK first.

[jslaker]

There are only very few M&P´s on the market, at least here in Germany.
You can get more support, parts, holster etc. for a Glock or an H&K.

That's a great consideration. Given the way Apex and Bowie Tactical parts get such heavy recommendations for the M&P series, the fact that they may be less/unavailable in other parts of the world would strike me as something worth thinking about.

[Frank B]

Given the way Apex and Bowie Tactical parts get such heavy recommendations for the M&P series, the fact that they may be less/unavailable in other parts of the world would strike me as something worth thinking about.

Getting gun parts over from CONUS is really Pain in the A.., even with so called minor parts. I still try to get my hands on some Vickers Slide Stops.

I´ve tried to find a M&P and found only one shop, who order them on demand. No major gunbroker around Germany have them, because the S&W German General Importer broke last year.

[Artur]

1)So, XD (M) 9mm and 40 S&W is not a good pistol Defense , IPSC and IPDA ??
2)It is better to buy H&K P30L 9mm Defense , IPSC and IPDA ??
3)I also have a question, you will be on sale H&K P3000 ??

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/de/hk-p30-e.html

[TGS]

Getting gun parts over from CONUS is really Pain in the A.., even with so called minor parts. I still try to get my hands on some Vickers Slide Stops.


I just wanted to check and ask.....Everything has to go through an exporter to you, correct? Even springs and other widgets, if made specifically for a firearm, are then considered "Implements of War" and must go through the proper export channels to your dealer, correct?

[Frank B]

1)So, XD (M) 9mm and 40 S&W is not a good pistol Defense , IPSC and IPDA ??
2)It is better to buy H&K P30L 9mm Defense , IPSC and IPDA ??
3)I also have a question, you will be on sale H&K P3000 ??

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/de/hk-p30-e.html

to 1. - it´s not as reliable as it should be. If it fail in a match...sh.t happens, but if it fails in a defense situation..., your health or life is in the line

to 2. - go with an H&K and you should be fine

[BigT]

I just wanted to check and ask.....Everything has to go through an exporter to you, correct? Even springs and other widgets, if made specifically for a firearm, are then considered "Implements of War" and must go through the proper export channels to your dealer, correct?

I'm not Frank but also OCONUS. Not everything. Some things can be exported no problem and others are a serious issue.

Some US companies won't export no matter what. Even if the item requires no paperwork they still won't sell it to us. I've even had that with a couple of holster manufacturers.

Mage over 10 rounds are a problem. And I've even seen issues strangly enough with speedloaders.

Small parts and stocks etc don't seem to be an issue. Though once again some companies hear OCONUS and just say no.

Sights can be an issue.

[ToddG]

I've yet to see an XD make it through a class without problems.

I've yet to see a law enforcement agency adopt it after serious, strenuous testing.

I've yet to hear a single thing the XD does better than comparably priced -- and more reputable -- Glocks and M&Ps.

I've yet to have anyone mistake me for an XD fan. :cool:

[TheNewbie]

I've yet to see an XD make it through a class without problems.

I've yet to see a law enforcement agency adopt it after serious, strenuous testing.

I've yet to hear a single thing the XD does better than comparably priced -- and more reputable -- Glocks and M&Ps.

I've yet to have anyone mistake me for an XD fan. :cool:

I worked for a College PD (yeah I know, my first mistake), and the trail and testing of the XDM .40 was my Chief, who was weirdly like Obama, take it out to a farm and fire 500 round through it.

It seemed prone to rust and other issues. Mine were FT Feed, FT Eject, and I don't know what else. It's hard to remember since it was a couple of years ago and I hardly shot at the time.

What kind have you seen in your classes?



I think I would have just as soon had a Ruger....couldn't be any worse.

[Artur]

It should be noted that both the M & P and P30 were tested in a rather intense (a few hundred to several thousand shots a day), and P30, even extreme (without cleaning up more than 10 thousand shots). Normally, no such gun thermal and mechanical load does not have to endure.

It's like the engine in the car - normally every decent motor will withstand the 300tys km or more in normal use, but the angulation at the racetrack is different.

But still, the fact that the lock broke and SW P30 damage related to the plastic shell near the chamber (the most exposed to temperatures of space frame), indicates that the HK, however, is more robust design.

1)Can you know when you will be in the sale of H & K P3000 successor to H & K P30 ???


Ps. A good idea XD (M) 40 S & W and 9mm was to the same test as the H & K P30 :p

[ToddG]

The HK P30 is the name HK finally chose for the gun that was originally called the P3000.

As for testing the XD, I'm not particularly interested. The guns I test I also carry everyday and based on my experience with the XD series that is not a gun I would choose to carry.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I've yet to have anyone mistake me for an XD fan. :cool:I thought you lived to shoot XD's, revolvers, and 1911's. :p

[JV_]

I thought you lived to shoot XD's, revolvers, and 1911's. :pDon't forget Zed!

[gtmtnbiker98]

Don't forget Zed!
Didn't want to start the CZ debacle, again.

[Artur]

From what I understand it series XD(M) 9mm and 40S&W is junk/shit :confused:

[TCinVA]

From what I understand it series XD(M) 9mm and 40S&W is junk/shit :confused:

It's not like a Taurus, but the XD doesn't exist on the same plane of durability/reliability that popular service pistols do. That's not to say that weapons like the Glock or the M&P are flawless, because heavens knows that they aren't...but even with the problems they still tend to turn up in lots of agency holsters and put in good service.

Some people don't care about that and it's their right. Those who shoot "a lot", however, would do well to pay attention to it.

[ffhounddog]

My brother carries a XDM-9 and has a XD-45. He is also one of hte many that shoots maybe once a year and things that is fine to carry a weapon concealed.

I have seen 3 XD9's go down in a 2 classes bad mags and one would the slide could not be pulled back after a round, and but I have seen a XD-40 and XD-40 tactical go through a class that a Glock 22 FTFs and a HK USP40 FTFs did not make it trough without issues. I was using a 92FS during the class so none of these are first hand.

I thought about getting a XD-40 to see if I liked it but a member here got my brain back thinking straight.

In Poland a Glock, HK, and maybe a Walther would be best in the area for parts and support.

I know in Iraq we had parts for the Iraqi GLocks and mags without issue where some of the other guns we gave them we could not get spares unless shipped to a camp or obtained through the state department.

ffh

[Mo0se]

I own an XD 9mm Tactical Model and I have had no issues with this pistol. I use it in USPSA Production class. 1000's of rounds without failure, I ran a Glock 34 through several stages, (mag fell out twice) and I can't see it as perfection either. All pistols have their quirks, I replaced all the quirks in mine. New trigger bar, (Springer Precision) stainless striker retaining pin, Sear, springs, Dawson sights etc. It now has a 3.5 lb trigger with a fast reset, with little creep. The overtravel is also all but eliminated.

To each their own, but nobody here has scientific data to back up their XD's are junk statements.

Ron Avery on the XD (http://www.policeone.com/police-products/duty-gear/holsters/articles/1778036-Product-Review-Springfield-XD-A-new-generation-of-excellence/)

Clint Smith on the XD (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_185_31/ai_n27101363/?tag=mantle_skin;content)

Chuck Taylor on the XD (http://www.chucktayloramericansmallarmsacademy.com/SpringfieldXD9.html)


My XD:
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x89/selinnah/IMG_1052.jpg
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x89/selinnah/IMG_1041.jpg

My Xd parts source:

Springer Precision (http://www.springerprecision.com/)

Happy shooting :cool:

[TCinVA]

To each their own, but nobody here has scientific data to back up their XD's are junk statements.


Exactly how many malfunctions, breakages, and problems does one need to personally observe before you would consider it "scientific"?

[Mo0se]

Exactly how many malfunctions, breakages, and problems does one need to personally observe before you would consider it "scientific"?

No gun is immune to malfunction or breakage, also who were handling these guns?
I don't know how many videos on you tube I've seen with "race guns" above $2k malfunctioning every few rounds. I offer another bit of wisdom:

Simply replace cigar with pistol.

As concerns tobacco, there are many superstitions. And the
chiefest is this--that there is a STANDARD governing the matter,
whereas there is nothing of the kind. Each man's own preference
is the only standard for him, the only one which he can accept,
the only one which can command him. A congress of all the
tobacco-lovers in the world could not elect a standard which
would be binding upon you or me, or would even much influence us.

The next superstition is that a man has a standard of his own.
He hasn't. He thinks he has, but he hasn't. He thinks he can
tell what he regards as a good cigar from what he regards as a
bad one--but he can't. He goes by the brand, yet imagines he goes
by the flavor. One may palm off the worst counterfeit upon him;
if it bears his brand he will smoke it contentedly and never suspect.

Children of twenty-five, who have seven years experience,
try to tell me what is a good cigar and what isn't.
Me, who never learned to smoke, but always smoked;
me, who came into the world asking for a light.

No one can tell me what is a good cigar--for me. I am the
only judge. People who claim to know say that I smoke the worst
cigars in the world. They bring their own cigars when they come
to my house. They betray an unmanly terror when I offer them
a cigar; they tell lies and hurry away to meet engagements
which they have not made when they are threatened with the
hospitalities of my box. Now then, observe what superstition,
assisted by a man's reputation, can do. I was to have twelve
personal friends to supper one night. One of them was as
notorious for costly and elegant cigars as I was for cheap and
devilish ones. I called at his house and when no one was looking
borrowed a double handful of his very choicest; cigars which cost
him forty cents apiece and bore red-and-gold labels in sign of
their nobility. I removed the labels and put the cigars into a
box with my favorite brand on it--a brand which those people all
knew, and which cowed them as men are cowed by an epidemic. They
took these cigars when offered at the end of the supper, and lit
them and sternly struggled with them--in dreary silence, for
hilarity died when the fell brand came into view and started
around--but their fortitude held for a short time only; then they
made excuses and filed out, treading on one another's heels with
indecent eagerness; and in the morning when I went out to observe
results the cigars lay all between the front door and the gate.
All except one--that one lay in the plate of the man from whom I
had cabbaged the lot. One or two whiffs was all he could stand.
He told me afterward that some day I would get shot for giving
people that kind of cigars to smoke.

Am I certain of my own standard? Perfectly; yes, absolutely
--unless somebody fools me by putting my brand on some other kind
of cigar; for no doubt I am like the rest, and know my cigar by
the brand instead of by the flavor. However, my standard is a
pretty wide one and covers a good deal of territory. To me,
almost any cigar is good that nobody else will smoke, and to me
almost all cigars are bad that other people consider good.
Nearly any cigar will do me, except a Havana. People think they
hurt my feelings when then come to my house with their life
preservers on--I mean, with their own cigars in their pockets.
It is an error; I take care of myself in a similar way. When I
go into danger--that is, into rich people's houses, where, in the
nature of things, they will have high-tariff cigars, red-and-gilt
girded and nested in a rosewood box along with a damp sponge,
cigars which develop a dismal black ash and burn down the side
and smell, and will grow hot to the fingers, and will go on
growing hotter and hotter, and go on smelling more and more
infamously and unendurably the deeper the fire tunnels down
inside below the thimbleful of honest tobacco that is in the
front end, the furnisher of it praising it all the time and
telling you how much the deadly thing cost--yes, when I go into
that sort of peril I carry my own defense along; I carry my own
brand--twenty-seven cents a barrel--and I live to see my family
again. I may seem to light his red-gartered cigar, but that is
only for courtesy's sake; I smuggle it into my pocket for the
poor, of whom I know many, and light one of my own; and while he
praises it I join in, but when he says it cost forty-five cents I
say nothing, for I know better.

However, to say true, my tastes are so catholic that I have
never seen any cigars that I really could not smoke, except those
that cost a dollar apiece. I have examined those and know that
they are made of dog-hair, and not good dog-hair at that.

I have a thoroughly satisfactory time in Europe, for all
over the Continent one finds cigars which not even the most
hardened newsboys in New York would smoke. I brought cigars with
me, the last time; I will not do that any more. In Italy, as in
France, the Government is the only cigar-peddler. Italy has
three or four domestic brands: the Minghetti, the Trabuco, the
Virginia, and a very coarse one which is a modification of the
Virginia. The Minghettis are large and comely, and cost three
dollars and sixty cents a hundred; I can smoke a hundred in seven
days and enjoy every one of them. The Trabucos suit me, too; I
don't remember the price. But one has to learn to like the
Virginia, nobody is born friendly to it. It looks like a rat-
tail file, but smokes better, some think. It has a straw through
it; you pull this out, and it leaves a flue, otherwise there
would be no draught, not even as much as there is to a nail.
Some prefer a nail at first. However, I like all the French,
Swiss, German, and Italian domestic cigars, and have never cared
to inquire what they are made of; and nobody would know, anyhow,
perhaps. There is even a brand of European smoking-tobacco that
I like. It is a brand used by the Italian peasants. It is loose
and dry and black, and looks like tea-grounds. When the fire is
applied it expands, and climbs up and towers above the pipe, and
presently tumbles off inside of one's vest. The tobacco itself
is cheap, but it raises the insurance. It is as I remarked in
the beginning--the taste for tobacco is a matter of superstition.
There are no standards--no real standards. Each man's preference
is the only standard for him, the only one which he can accept,
the only one which can command him.

:cool:

[TCinVA]

No gun is immune to malfunction or breakage

That's true.

Equally true, however, is that some makes/models really do have a better track record of performance than others.



also who were handling these guns?


Police officers, average citizens...average people.



I don't know how many videos on you tube I've seen with "race guns" above $2k malfunctioning every few rounds.


I've seen plenty of high-dollar custom guns choke on the range...and that's part of the reason why I don't generally recommend buying 1911's. They're finicky beasts that must be manufactured, assembled, and maintained just so to keep them reliable...and even then, to quote someone much smarter and wiser than I am, they achieve marginally acceptable reliability.

That's one of the reasons why military units have generally abandoned the 1911, why most police departments shun the 1911, and why the only organizations that still issue them tend to have a staff of skilled armorers and an enviable budget to maintain them.

The fact that there are people who pay north of 2 grand for finicky guns that need frequent attention to run doesn't really change the situation with the XD, I'm afraid. It's not a function of how much a weapon costs, what it looks like, or anything like that...it's about whether or not the weapons tend to work and tend to continue working as the round count climbs.



Simply replace cigar with pistol.


It's difficult to argue that cigars and pistols are the same in that the only difference between them is personal preference because it's simply untrue. As I stated earlier, some guns have a better track record of doing what they are designed to do better than others. I know that mere assertion of that truth deeply offends sensibilities, but it's objective truth.

That's why some makes/models are found in the holsters of people who have a high chance of having to use the weapon to stop the hostile actions of a criminal aggressor and other makes/models are not.

[ToddG]

To each their own, but nobody here has scientific data to back up their XD's are junk statements.

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security Immigration and Customs Enforcement certainly does... they tested the XD in '04 and it failed. In fact, I've yet to see a single instance in which the XD was subjected to a scientific selection protocol and got selected or even passed the threshold requirements.

I can certainly prove (scientifically :cool:) that the slide is locked unless proper force is applied to the grip safety, and many instructors consider that a liability when the need for one handed manipulations under stress or in the event of injury become necessary.

Do you really think it's just a marketing decision on Springfield's part that not a single major agency of any kind in the U.S. has adopted the XD? All of the other handgun companies fight tooth and nail for those customers and Springer just doesn't care?

You've got a single example with an unspecified number of rounds through it. I'm genuinely glad it works and works for you. But that is certainly far from the "scientific data" you're asking us to provide in response. Your gun works for you. That's good. You'll find that the folks here at PF will have zero problem with your choice in handgun as long as it runs for you, you shoot it well, and you practice with it.

[Mo0se]

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security Immigration and Customs Enforcement certainly does... they tested the XD in '04 and it failed. In fact, I've yet to see a single instance in which the XD was subjected to a scientific selection protocol and got selected or even passed the threshold requirements.

I can certainly prove (scientifically :cool:) that the slide is locked unless proper force is applied to the grip safety, and many instructors consider that a liability when the need for one handed manipulations under stress or in the event of injury become necessary.

Do you really think it's just a marketing decision on Springfield's part that not a single major agency of any kind in the U.S. has adopted the XD? All of the other handgun companies fight tooth and nail for those customers and Springer just doesn't care?

You've got a single example with an unspecified number of rounds through it. I'm genuinely glad it works and works for you. But that is certainly far from the "scientific data" you're asking us to provide in response. Your gun works for you. That's good. You'll find that the folks here at PF will have zero problem with your choice in handgun as long as it runs for you, you shoot it well, and you practice with it.

I want to state that my posts are not meant in a derogatory manner, they are based on humor..I do enjoy my pistol, and it works for me. It is not my intention to bash any make model, as all of them have flaws. But to rule something out as junk is ignorant.

Large police departments do whats most cost effective, like all business contracts.

The Croation Military is not big a big enough or major organization?

XD History (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HS2000)

Two of my friends (LEO's) were injured due to their duty weapon discharging while in the holster. You would think that the safety of these Policemen would be me important than the low bidding contracts. Arkansas State Police FYI

The grip safety is working properly, the way it's designed to. The guide rod is a standoff for pushing the weapon into targets, I have no need to utilize this feauture
in USPSA competitions. I have never had the grip safety interfere with any matches, so I'm not losing any options there. The grip safety can be pinned if you like..not recommended, but can be done.

2009 Handgun of the Year (http://www.americanrifleman.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=1372)

Shoot straight and have a good day!

[Kyle Reese]

Unless there is a mechanical defect, and a passive/active safety mechanism is rendered inoperable, handguns generally do not "go off" in the holster on their own accord. They are generally inadvertently discharged while drawing or reholstering, due to something (clothing, debris, human digit) coming into tactile contact with the trigger, and general unpleasantness is the result. FWIW, I've carried Beretta 92's, SIGs & Glocks stateside and overseas, under a variety of conditions, and have yet to experience the phonomenon you describe. I have, on the other hand, witnessed people have ND's while not giving the holster/reholster process the care and attention that it warrants, and every time the "weapon just went off".

I'm not saying this was the case with the LEO's you were referring to, just something to bear in mind.


The Croatian military issues a hodgepodge of small arms to it's troops, and it just so happens that the Hrvatski Samokres (XD in US parlance) is manufactured there (in Karlovac- nice little town).

Coincidence? Perhaps.

I've also seen Croatian soldiers in person armed with FALs, G-3's, MG 42's, K-98s (and other Mauser variants) and a smattering of Kalashnikovs. Their military used whatever weapons were available, or they had in deep storage. I'm sure today they've upgraded and modernized, but still.

The individuals listed as extolling the virtues of the XD are certainly entitled to their opinion, but it's unlikely that you'll find many people here that share their sentiment.

Just the way it is.

[ToddG]

Large police departments do whats most cost effective, like all business contracts.

How many major .mil/.gov small arms contracts have you been involved with? I've done quite a few from both the seller and customer side and I've never seen cost as the main factor. In most cases, cost is only an issue if two otherwise comparably performing weapons are the final choices.

If cost was all, every PD in the country would be running around with Rugers and Tauruses.


The Croation Military is not big a big enough or major organization?

I'm assuming you meant that tongue in cheek.


Two of my friends (LEO's) were injured due to their duty weapon discharging while in the holster.

Details?


The grip safety is working properly, the way it's designed to.

If there was a spike designed to shoot backwards out of the gun and impale your eyeball, saying "it's working properly as designed" doesn't mitigate the fact that it's a bad design.


in USPSA competitions. I have never had the grip safety interfere with any matches, so I'm not losing any options there.

Remind me again how many Nationals or Area Championships have been won by XDs...


2009 Handgun of the Year (http://www.americanrifleman.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=1372)

Yeah, there's some company I want to keep:
2011 Handgun of the Year, Taurus PT 740 SLIM (http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/golden-bullseye-2011/)
2009 Tactical Handgun of the Year, SIG P250 (http://www.americanrifleman.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=1375&cid=19)
2008 Handgun of the Year, Taurus Judge (http://www.taurususa.com/awards.cfm)

[TCinVA]

Yeah...when you're on the list with the Judge (a truly stupid handgun) and the P250...which failed miserably in field issue and in contract testing...it's hardly a good sign.

[Joe in PNG]

Yeah, there's some company I want to keep:
2011 Handgun of the Year, Taurus PT 740 SLIM (http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/golden-bullseye-2011/)
2009 Tactical Handgun of the Year, SIG P250 (http://www.americanrifleman.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=1375&cid=19)
2008 Handgun of the Year, Taurus Judge (http://www.taurususa.com/awards.cfm)

I'm perdicting that the Caracal or the Guv'nor will win for 2012...

[Mo0se]

How many major .mil/.gov small arms contracts have you been involved with? I've done quite a few from both the seller and customer side and I've never seen cost as the main factor. In most cases, cost is only an issue if two otherwise comparably performing weapons are the final choices.

If cost was all, every PD in the country would be running around with Rugers and Tauruses.



I'm assuming you meant that tongue in cheek.



Details?



If there was a spike designed to shoot backwards out of the gun and impale your eyeball, saying "it's working properly as designed" doesn't mitigate the fact that it's a bad design.



Remind me again how many Nationals or Area Championships have been won by XDs...



Yeah, there's some company I want to keep:
2011 Handgun of the Year, Taurus PT 740 SLIM (http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/golden-bullseye-2011/)
2009 Tactical Handgun of the Year, SIG P250 (http://www.americanrifleman.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=1375&cid=19)
2008 Handgun of the Year, Taurus Judge (http://www.taurususa.com/awards.cfm)

Well you have certainly proven my Mark Twain reference correct...I'm welcome but I shoot junk..no thanks. By the way, You don't even know who I am, or what my profession is. Not that it would matter. How many USPSA matches have been won the the M9? That is a Beretta model 92 for those who have not served. Here is a valid point that is relevant. Take Dave Sevigny, Rob Leatham, Todd Jarret, Julie Golob or any other champion you would like to choose, put any brand x pistol in their hand, and watch what happens. They are still better than anyone else, regardless of what is in their hands. Some people could learn something from that. Dave Sevigny has already proven it..congrats to him on the Single stack win.

[NickA]

If there was a spike designed to shoot backwards out of the gun and impale your eyeball, saying "it's working properly as designed" doesn't mitigate the fact that it's a bad design.

Yeah, there's some company I want to keep:
2011 Handgun of the Year, Taurus PT 740 SLIM (http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/golden-bullseye-2011/)
2009 Tactical Handgun of the Year, SIG P250 (http://www.americanrifleman.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=1375&cid=19)
2008 Handgun of the Year, Taurus Judge (http://www.taurususa.com/awards.cfm)
LMFAO....Todd you're so money and you don't even know it.

[JV_]

How many USPSA matches have been won the the M9? That is a Beretta model 92 for those who have not served.I don't know about USPSA, but I'm pretty sure Dave Olhasso and Ernie Langdon won a bunch of matches with them. But why does that matter? I'd take a 92 over an XD any day.

[Mo0se]

I don't know about USPSA, but I'm pretty sure Dave Olhasso and Ernie Langdon won a bunch of matches with them. But why does that matter? I'd take a 92 over an XD any day.

I have both..:cool:

[Mo0se]

LMFAO....Todd you're so money and you don't even know it.

Refencing an organization without facts is useless, and who shot their eye out with a grip safety? I'm waiting money man. :p

Facts or it's useless pondering..cite names..contact info.

[F-Trooper05]

Dude, there are plenty of people who could shoot XDm's well if they had to (Todd is one of them), but the point is that many (if not most) choose not to for various reasons.

If your XDm works, that's great. But when dozens of SME's and industry pros say that certain guns work and certain guns don't work, I for one take note.

[JDM]

What is it with people and these guns?

They suck. YOURS might not, but as a whole, they suck.

What is the point of arguing over an outlier? Good on you for having one that works, and, more specifically, works to your (perceved) needs.

For serious end users, they DO NOT WORK. There are Myriad reasons.

And thats really all there is to it. Period. Full stop.

BTW, Todd, that spike thing was truly hillarious.

[ToddG]

Well you have certainly proven my Mark Twain reference correct...

A cigar is not a mechanical life-saving device. There is more to a "good" gun than whether it tastes good or smells good or looks good or whatever people care about when it comes to cigars. If a company made a cigar that had a reputation for never lighting or not staying lit don't you think that would impact its popularity among experienced cigar smokers?


I'm welcome but I shoot junk..no thanks.

Facts are facts. People are discussing facts about the XD. If they make you feel like your gun is junk, that's on you.


By the way, You don't even know who I am, or what my profession is. Not that it would matter.

You started talking about large procurements so I asked what if any background you have in small arms procurements. I've not seen an answer yet.


How many USPSA matches have been won the the M9?

A Beretta 92 won the first USPSA Production Championship (Ernest Langdon). One also won the first MD-VA Sectional Production title (me).


Take Dave Sevigny, Rob Leatham, Todd Jarret, Julie Golob or any other champion you would like to choose, put any brand x pistol in their hand, and watch what happens.

I know all four of those people and I assure you none of them would suggest that they can shoot all guns equally well. None of them shoot stock guns, either, which further illustrates that they do in fact care about the little details of how a gun feels, shoots, and operates. Finally, all four of them have experienced what happens when a gun they rely on for competition has mechanical problems. No amount of shooting skill can overcome a gun that won't fire.

[Mo0se]

A cigar is not a mechanical life-saving device. There is more to a "good" gun than whether it tastes good or smells good or looks good or whatever people care about when it comes to cigars. If a company made a cigar that had a reputation for never lighting or not staying lit don't you think that would impact its popularity among experienced cigar smokers?



Facts are facts. People are discussing facts about the XD. If they make you feel like your gun is junk, that's on you.



You started talking about large procurements so I asked what if any background you have in small arms procurements. I've not seen an answer yet.



A Beretta 92 won the first USPSA Production Championship (Ernest Langdon). One also won the first MD-VA Sectional Production title (me).



I know all four of those people and I assure you none of them would suggest that they can shoot all guns equally well. None of them shoot stock guns, either, which further illustrates that they do in fact care about the little details of how a gun feels, shoots, and operates. Finally, all four of them have experienced what happens when a gun they rely on for competition has mechanical problems. No amount of shooting skill can overcome a gun that won't fire.

Hence why my pistol is not junk to me and I have customized it to me.

They must not be that bad (http://www.ileeta.org/e-blast.php)

I'm still waiting on your proof of earlier stated claims..I want pics of the eye shot out, and your contacts at Homeland Security. :)

this is all I could Find (http://www.dhs.gov/xnews/releases/press_release_0493.shtm)

[ToddG]

The "eye shot out" thing was an analogy. I'm sorry if you didn't get that.

You can choose to disbelieve the DHS thing if you want. You can also choose to believe that all those cops you see on the streets day after day are actually carrying XDs disguised as Glocks, M&Ps, SIGs, HKs, etc. Heck, you can believe we all actually keep XDs on the nightstand but won't admit it just to annoy you.

Since you like the one-liner link: XD reliability (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance)

edited to add: As further proof that XD owners collect and cherish endorsement links, your ILEETA one is to their newsletter which no longer says anything about the XD except for the fact that Team One Network (which is paid by Springfield to provide XD armorer training) is doing some XD armorer classes.

[Joe in PNG]

(Note- I'm a recovering CZ fanboi)

This all brings me back to the "open mind" post. Many fanbois don't have an open mind when it come to the explicit failings of their beloved platforms. Face it, some guns just aren't robust enough for high volume shooting. The people who teach classes that involve just that tend to get a feel for what is able to stand up, and what isn't- (kind of like a mechanic knows what manufacture makes good cars, and which one makes junk).

So when these folks tell me that my gun isn't likely going to hold up, then maybe, just maybe I should pay attention. True, I've never had any trouble with a CZ... then again, I've never taken one to AFHF, or really put a lot of rounds downrange, or even done a 2000 round challenge. Which means I may not really have a good baseline to dispute the findings of more experienced others.

[jslaker]

The grip safety is working properly, the way it's designed to.

And the grip safety working as-designed completely locks the slide from cycling, which is a totally undesirable trait to many users.

Like Todd said, functioning as-designed doesn't suddenly make an ill-conceived design a wise design. The fact that you've chosen to latch on to a joking analogy rather than actually address this is telling.


The grip safety can be pinned if you like..not recommended, but can be done.

At which point you have a fully primed single-action firearm with no sear block. Again, not particularly desirable in my book. Granted, the firing pin block safety should still save you under most circumstances, but the entire point of having multiple overlapping passive safeties is so that one failing doesn't lead to an unexpected discharge.

Besides if I have to work around the basic design of a firearm to get it to a state I consider serviceable, I'm going to go look for something else. That's about where I stand on the XD.

[Mo0se]

Dude, there are plenty of people who could shoot XDm's well if they had to (Todd is one of them), but the point is that many (if not most) choose not to for various reasons.

If your XDm works, that's great. But when dozens of SME's and industry pros say that certain guns work and certain guns don't work, I for one take note.

It does work thanks!

[Mo0se]

This. XD owners seem to take criticisms of the platform very personally. I don't really get that.



Brief detour to applaud the proper use of the word "myriad" as an adjective.

I'm not taking any of this personal. ;)

[Mo0se]

The "eye shot out" thing was an analogy. I'm sorry if you didn't get that.

You can choose to disbelieve the DHS thing if you want. You can also choose to believe that all those cops you see on the streets day after day are actually carrying XDs disguised as Glocks, M&Ps, SIGs, HKs, etc. Heck, you can believe we all actually keep XDs on the nightstand but won't admit it just to annoy you.

Since you like the one-liner link: XD reliability (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance)

edited to add: As further proof that XD owners collect and cherish endorsement links, your ILEETA one is to their newsletter which no longer says anything about the XD except for the fact that Team One Network (which is paid by Springfield to provide XD armorer training) is doing some XD armorer classes.

Nothing anyone has said has caused me embarrassment for owning an XD, or modifying it to suit me. I have no buyers remorse, and I am thankful to own it.

You are confusing my replies with looking for approval...I do not seek it.
The only reason for my replies are to ask people who make statements
to back up their statements with facts. By the way, out of those 59 or 64
handguns that did not get awarded the contract for DHS do you own?
The only clear winner in that train of thought is the M9, so that is the only
choice for obvious reasons. I love my 92, and my XD.

If you want to base your entire judgement of a pistol based on that, there are
evidently only two pistol brands worth considering. If you read the press release
it clearly states, the decision to award the contract was based upon price as well.

It's clear to me that I'm the odd duck here, and is natural for a group of people who
think the same to look down on me because I won't drink the kool aid.

[TCinVA]

If you want to base your entire judgement of a pistol based on that, there are
evidently only two pistol brands worth considering.


He's not basing it on that alone. There have been dozens of similar tests conducted by different military and law enforcement agencies that preceded awarding a contract to a manufacturer. XD's have been submitted to other tests and have struck out. You can find major agencies issuing 9mm/.40/357/.45 Glocks, M&P's, H&K's, Berettas, Sigs, etc based on the results of contract testing. (Which often includes user feedback on preferences, etc) You don't see XD's getting the nod from these contract testing processes.

As for brands, brand names are next to worthless. Beretta is a good example. Their 92 pistol is a good handgun by any reasonable measure. They seem to be very good at producing 92 pistols that work out of the box and, trigger return spring aside, offer a relatively hassle free service life. Their Cougar product, on the other hand, was a miserable failure of such epic proportions that their company was essentially blackballed within some agencies who felt screwed over by their Cougar purchases. Their 96 pistols tend to self destruct far too early. The product itself is what makes the difference. Some products are simply better than others, even if they come from the same manufacturer.



If you read the press release
it clearly states, the decision to award the contract was based upon price as well.


Price is always a consideration...but if it was the primary consideration what Todd said would be true: Contracts would be won by Taurus, Ruger, and by the Croatian Sensation XD. That these other pistols do not tend to dominate agency purchases (despite the fact that they've tried to go out for contracts...Ruger famously sued when the M9 contract was awarded to Beretta) is a clue.



It's clear to me that I'm the odd duck here, and is natural for a group of people who
think the same to look down on me because I won't drink the kool aid.

It's not about Kool-aid, dude...it's about facts. The fact is that the XD has been submitted in a number of service weapon trials and has not been adopted in them for a number of reasons ranging from reliability issues, support issues, to issues with the design of the weapon. The XD has been specifically excluded from some contracts (like the recent BATFE contract) because the agency flat didn't want anything to do with them. When they show up in classes they tend to exhibit more problematic behavior than other weapons like Beretta 92's, Glock 17's, etc. This stuff all falls within the direct personal experience of multiple individuals on this site and in this thread.

Your original argument that it was a matter of taste is, quite simply, wrong. It's not a an argument about which whiskey tastes the best, it's a machine. The performance of a machine can be measured. The performance of the XD has been measured against other options on the market and time after time the XD fails to make the cut.

That's not my personal opinion...that's just the objective truth of the matter. Whether or not any of that should matter to you is up to you, but don't get wrapped around the axle when it matters to other people who want to spend money once buying a pistol that's going to just run without drama.

[Mo0se]

He's not basing it on that alone. There have been dozens of similar tests conducted by different military and law enforcement agencies that preceded awarding a contract to a manufacturer. XD's have been submitted to other tests and have struck out. You can find major agencies issuing 9mm/.40/357/.45 Glocks, M&P's, H&K's, Berettas, Sigs, etc based on the results of contract testing. (Which often includes user feedback on preferences, etc) You don't see XD's getting the nod from these contract testing processes.

As for brands, brand names are next to worthless. Beretta is a good example. Their 92 pistol is a good handgun by any reasonable measure. They seem to be very good at producing 92 pistols that work out of the box and, trigger return spring aside, offer a relatively hassle free service life. Their Cougar product, on the other hand, was a miserable failure of such epic proportions that their company was essentially blackballed within some agencies who felt screwed over by their Cougar purchases. Their 96 pistols tend to self destruct far too early. The product itself is what makes the difference. Some products are simply better than others, even if they come from the same manufacturer.



Price is always a consideration...but if it was the primary consideration what Todd said would be true: Contracts would be won by Taurus, Ruger, and by the Croatian Sensation XD. That these other pistols do not tend to dominate agency purchases (despite the fact that they've tried to go out for contracts...Ruger famously sued when the M9 contract was awarded to Beretta) is a clue.



It's not about Kool-aid, dude...it's about facts. The fact is that the XD has been submitted in a number of service weapon trials and has not been adopted in them for a number of reasons ranging from reliability issues, support issues, to issues with the design of the weapon. The XD has been specifically excluded from some contracts (like the recent BATFE contract) because the agency flat didn't want anything to do with them. When they show up in classes they tend to exhibit more problematic behavior than other weapons like Beretta 92's, Glock 17's, etc. This stuff all falls within the direct personal experience of multiple individuals on this site and in this thread.

Your original argument that it was a matter of taste is, quite simply, wrong. It's not a an argument about which whiskey tastes the best, it's a machine. The performance of a machine can be measured. The performance of the XD has been measured against other options on the market and time after time the XD fails to make the cut.

That's not my personal opinion...that's just the objective truth of the matter. Whether or not any of that should matter to you is up to you, but don't get wrapped around the axle when it matters to other people who want to spend money once buying a pistol that's going to just run without drama.

The cigar is not the point of that story, it is the human behavior behind it.

Facts is all was asking for. :D

[jslaker]

Facts is all was asking for. :D

Well, it'd be helpful if you weren't intentionally ignoring the ones presented to you.

[Kyle Reese]

It's clear to me that I'm the odd duck here, and is natural for a group of people who
think the same to look down on me because I won't drink the kool aid.

What "kool aid" are you referring to? Hard facts & empirical evidence rule the day here, and you just will not find anyone here who is as devoted to the XD platform as you appear to be.

[JV_]

Hard facts & empirical evidence rule the day here, and you just will not find anyone here who is as devoted to the XD platform as you appear to be.This is turning in to one of those threads that is best left to sink to the bottom; no amount of discussion or facts will change his mind. To be honest, that's just fine with me, I'm not emotionally invested in my guns.

[Kyle Reese]

Agreed. Any useful / productive discussion has long since passed. Going to close this one down, folks.