For those with SmartCarry experience

[CCT125US]

What are your expected draw to first hit times including target size and distance?
How does this compare to your typical performance?
What is your chosen firearm for carry using this method?
Any particular tips or thoughts you would care to share?

[vaglocker]

I've seen some videos of people drawing from smart carry holsters pretty quickly, but I personally have never timed myself. When I wear a smart carry it is for carrying in very non-permissive environments and I have no illusions that I'll be able to draw as quickly as I could from my AIWB holster. For me the trade off is deep concealment and hopefully being able to preemptively and/or surreptitiously draw my pistol if I should so need it.

[CCT125US]

Bueller? Bueller?

[ToddG]

Posted this on M4C four years ago:

Comfort, when worn properly (very low) gets four out of five stars. It's clear you're wearing it and, depending on how you normally situate yourself down there it may get in the way a bit, but it's not at all uncomfortable. Actually, it feels almost exactly like wearing a fanny pack. The only slight hiccup is when you need to use a restroom ... getting it out of the way takes a little gymnastics and isn't particularly subtle if you're standing at a urinal.

Concealability I'll give five stars. My full size P30 is noticeable at the butt (gun's, not mine) if you know where to look but it could just as easily be something in a pocket, etc. The ability to carry a full size gun PLUS a spare magazine with a tucked-in shirt is pretty amazing. I feel like I could go just about anywhere (sans metal detectors) without being spotted.

Speed gets two stars. It's a lot faster than I expected once I got used to it, but it's definitely substantially slower than my Looper.

SmartCarry, standing:
2.05 sec average to first shot
range from 1.60 to 2.54 (SD of 0.36)

Looper + untucked polo, standing:
1.01 sec average to first shot
range from 0.87 to 1.16 (SD of 0.09)

SmartCarry, sitting:
2.19 sec average to first shot
range from 1.79 to 3.26 (SD of 0.45)

Looper + untucked polo, sitting:
1.31 sec average to first shot
range from 1.02 to 1.65 (SD of 0.20)

This was done with a stopwatch dry-fire, so the data is certainly not perfect. My wife's reaction time from hearing the click of the hammer to hitting the stop button also needs to get factored in. I was aiming at an 8" square at about 5yd distance.

The real difference is consistency, which in the SmartCarry's defense would probably improve if I practiced with it more and worked out some of the techniques better. Still, I was far more likely to fumble something with the SmartCarry. In one case, I had a sitting draw of 3.26 ... in comparison, I had a fumble during seated Looper draws that worked out to 1.63 and 1.65 ... both faster than the best I could do from the SmartCarry.

I'm going to try the same test again strong hand only at some point, because I think the SmartCarry will be noticeably harder to draw without being able to move the waistband out of the way.

Value gets four stars. Quality of material seems good. Because it's not gun-specific, I did need to take a safety pin and "size" the holster ... without that, the gun sat far too low and draw speed was pathetic. Price is almost identical to a standard Looper.

15/20 total rating from me.

[JHC]

Todd - what is with the "worn low" to be worn properly? I thought the proper set up was the top of the grip of this pistol underneath the belt. But I would think "worn low" means grip below the belt. I agree with your qualified high rating of the Smart Carry. For those times it's pretty impressive.

I've just found a G19 looks fine when the butt is under the belt. But it won't stay there in normal movement; it slips below the belt and bulges up at a "banana right" angle and I look like "Smiling Bob" walking around. G26 GTG.

[ToddG]

JHC -- When I got mine, the recommendation from the manufacturer was very specific that for maximum concealment & comfort the gun had to be worn low with the entire gun below the belt line. When wearing a tucked shirt, having the butt right at the belt line was just a little too "open" for me. And I'm rounder 'bout the middle than a lot of folks.

In my admittedly limited testing, I also found that sinking the gun deeper actually helped with the draw a bit. When the butt was in line with the belt, I had to fit my hand around the gun against the tension of the belt to establish my grip. When it's below, the draw is just driving your hand down past the belt, grabbing the gun, and then pulling the whole thing out in one motion. YMMV, of course. Given the nature of the holster, odds are that gun size/shape, hand size/shape, pant size/shape, and body size/shape all play a role in determining exactly what position and technique is going to be optimal.

[JHC]

JHC -- When I got mine, the recommendation from the manufacturer was very specific that for maximum concealment & comfort the gun had to be worn low with the entire gun below the belt line. When wearing a tucked shirt, having the butt right at the belt line was just a little too "open" for me. And I'm rounder 'bout the middle than a lot of folks.

In my admittedly limited testing, I also found that sinking the gun deeper actually helped with the draw a bit. When the butt was in line with the belt, I had to fit my hand around the gun against the tension of the belt to establish my grip. When it's below, the draw is just driving your hand down past the belt, grabbing the gun, and then pulling the whole thing out in one motion. YMMV, of course. Given the nature of the holster, odds are that gun size/shape, hand size/shape, pant size/shape, and body size/shape all play a role in determining exactly what position and technique is going to be optimal.

Cool. I need to explore lower. That belt tension thing sure was! Thanks.

[NEPAKevin]

The only slight hiccup is when you need to use a restroom ... getting it out of the way takes a little gymnastics and isn't particularly subtle if you're standing at a urinal.


And a lot depends on how big your gun is and how you position it.

[98z28]

What are your expected draw to first hit times including target size and distance?
How does this compare to your typical performance?
What is your chosen firearm for carry using this method?
Any particular tips or thoughts you would care to share?

Todd's experience with the first two questions mirrors mine. The Smart Carry is slower and fumble prone when compared to a "real" holster, though regular practice can mitigate that somewhat.

RE: What is your chosen firearm for carry using this method?

As with other concealment options that stuff the gun at or below the belt, the overall length of the gun matters as much or more than the grip length in ease of concealment. A barrel length ~4" is the max I can get away with on a 5'11" frame (taller folks could probably get away with more). There is only so much room between the bottom of the crotch and the belt line. I have tried a G17 and a Sig P226 in the SmartCarry. Both were too long. I had to move the holster over so that the muzzle was running down my leg rather than right above my wedding tackle. This created a rather awkward looking bulge. :eek: It was also uncomfortable when sitting.

These guns have worked fine (for me):

HK P30
M&Pc with compact and full size magazines
SIG P239
Walther PPS

Note that the overall length of each us under 7”. Anything longer was a no go.

Carrying double stack guns in the SmartCarry requires loose fitting pants in my experience. The grip will make a bulge, but it can look like something in your pocket as long as the pants have some room in them.

For me, the SmartCarry really shines when you have to wear fitting clothing, such as a tailored suit. A slim gun like the PPS and a spare mag disappear, but are still reasonably accessible. At least they are more accessible than they would be at home in the safe, which is the other alternative when I have to wear a suit. The SmartCarry works well enough in this role that I haven’t tried a belly band yet.

[Kobalt60]

I just ordered one of these for my G23. I'm looking forward to trying it out when I head down to Florida for the 4th.

As far as Glocks go, is it safe to carry one in the chamber with the standard trigger (minus the 25 cent polish job)? I'm ordering a couple of NY trigger springs to play around with. Would it be prudent to run a heavier trigger with the smartcarry or do you guys think its not necessary?

On the deep end of caution would be carrying with an empty chamber. I'm thinking... If the draw with a smart carry is so slow, will the added time of chambering a round really make a difference?

I'm leaning toward the added safety margin of an NY trigger for deep concealment in a soft sided holster like the SC. I'm really looking forward to when this thing comes in. I might pick up a Kahr P9 or PM9 down the road so I can really carry almost anywhere.

[Ed L]

If you carry unloaded chamber, you need to use two arms to reliably chamber a round and to extend the gun arm to do so, rendering the gun easier to grab or divert.

I know there are alternate ways of chambering a round with one hand by catching the rear sight on your belt or something. That works fine on a range, but not when someone is on top of you beating you to death or if you are running from someone who is trying to kill you.

If you have a round in the chamber you can draw one handed and and immediately fire from a retention position without extending the arm to make it easy to grab/divert.

If you carry with a loaded chamber you can draw and fire with one arm if you are caught in a close-in struggle.

Drawing a gun and then chambering a round is a lot more telegraphic with more required movement than simply clearing the holster and presenting the muzzle on target.

There is also the issue of the covert draw which can be done if expecting trouble where you angle your body and draw the gun and keep it out of sight. Having to chamber a round adds a whole level of complexity and movement

It really doesn't take much to see that carrying chamber empty is a major liability for close in use. I don't need to look at any statistics to see a problem.

Most lethal force civilian encounters that involve carrying a gun occur at contact distance or just beyond it.

There has been a major recognition in the last few years that situation requiring the use of a handgun often occur at very close range where doing something like fully extending your shooting arm may place the gun in a position where it can be grabbed or diverted by your attacker. Having a round in the chamber allows you to fire the gun at a close in attacker from a retention position where the gun is oriented toward the attacker and fired while kept close to your body as soon as it leaves the holster. You can't do this with a gun that does not have a round in the chamber.

[Kobalt60]

I get the typical disadvantages of carrying with an empty chamber. I am used to carrying a Glock with a loaded chamber IWB, AIWB and OWB in a hard sided holster that covers the trigger guard completely. No problems there. My question had more to do with whether the readiness vs. safety equation changes when using a deep concealment holster with "soft sides" so to speak along with a pistol (Glock) that has a relatively light trigger pull and no manual safety. I suppose the same question could be asked of any soft-sided deep concealment holster, like a belly band as well. Factor in that drawing from deep concealment is typically a two handed affair in most cases as well as a slow process that I'm unlikely to attempt in full view of an armed attacker or in an ECQB situation, at least not until I can create some space and opportunity. I also fully understand that this sort of deep concealment will not be my preferred carry method and will be reserved for situations that involve either non-permissive environments or when the wardrobe of choice doesn't allow for my typical concealment methods, like at the beach where I'm likely to take my shirt off.

[Dave J]

If you're uncomfortable with the reduced trigger protection associated with some of the deep concealment methods, why not just put a kydex trigger cover (e.g. MIC or Fricke Zacceus) on the gun before it goes in your Smartcarry or whatever.

The Fricke Zacceus has a short loop of cord that attaches to your belt, belt loop, or whatever, so the gun comes free of the Kydex as you draw. I've no experience with the MIC, but it appears to be the same concept.

Like you, I am accustomed to carrying in condition 1...I'm pretty sure that under stress, I'd forget to chamber a round if I ever carried it in anything other than my "normal" condition, since that's not something I practice as part of the drawstroke.

[Ed L]

Kobalt60,

I can understand your concerns with Smartcarry.

If I understand correctly, you have it ordered but it has not yet arrived.

I think once you get it, you will need to practice a bunch with an unloaded gun. Practice drawing it and dryfiring it as well as just carrying it around your house.

[Wiley Coyyote]

I just ordered one of these for my G23. I'm looking forward to trying it out when I head down to Florida for the 4th.

As far as Glocks go, is it safe to carry one in the chamber with the standard trigger (minus the 25 cent polish job)? I'm ordering a couple of NY trigger springs to play around with. Would it be prudent to run a heavier trigger with the smartcarry or do you guys think its not necessary?

On the deep end of caution would be carrying with an empty chamber. I'm thinking... If the draw with a smart carry is so slow, will the added time of chambering a round really make a difference?

I'm leaning toward the added safety margin of an NY trigger for deep concealment in a soft sided holster like the SC. I'm really looking forward to when this thing comes in. I might pick up a Kahr P9 or PM9 down the road so I can really carry almost anywhere.

You can get a safety for your Glock http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?8563-D-amp-L-Cominolli-Glock-Safety&p=140498#post140498

[Xenogy]

Here is a story on my limited Smart Carry experience.

A couple years ago I got off work (night shift) and was bringing some groceries out of Walmart when I noticed an early 90's Blazer was stopped behind my car in the parking lot. Immediately my situational awareness is piqued. There was no car in the parking space in front of my car so I knew I had an escape route. I went to the passenger side and put my groceries in the passenger seat in order to keep my distance.

I noticed 1 of the 2 guys in the Blazer at this point had exited and was walking towards me with a gas can. I squared off towards him in preparation to diffuse the situation. He said he was out of gas and wanted to know if I would give him a ride to the gas station. I told him there was a gas station just down that way within walking distance, just follow the side road to the end and it's right there on the right. He said he was from out of town, and if it's just right down there it would only take a second to give him a ride. I told him I'm sorry but my wife is expecting me and I have to get these groceries home for dinner. He starts to walk back towards the Blazer.

I walked the opposite direction and went around the front of my car over to the driver side. As I'm getting in my car I have to make a decision to do a covert draw from the Smart Carry or not. I'm thinking if this guy comes back over, the Smart Carry is going to be a long 2 handed draw from a seated position and I have no way to defend myself against an attack with my left hand. I check my side and rear view mirrors and I don't see anyone so I choose not to draw, but instead have my car key indexed along my index finger. I start the car as fast as I can and I'm already in first gear (manual transmission), so it was very quick. I put my seatbelt on as I was driving out of the parking lot.

What I learned from this experience: I had been carrying the Smart Carry for maybe a month and had practiced my draw quite a bit standing and seated. As I was getting in my car that night, my draw-stroke was playing through my head (like scenes right before a fight in the new Sherlock Holmes movies with Robert Downey Jr). As my draw stroke played out through my head it seemed agonizingly slower than IWB carry. In practice, a couple times I would draw from the smart carry and get a hand full of belt and miss grabbing the top of my pants. Or even once grab the top of my boxers, which I solved by wearing them a little lower. Since then I went back to my Comp Tac Minotaur holster.

The Smart Carry still has a place though. It excels when you have to wear a shirt tucked in because the draw is alot easier than with an untucked shirt. Or if you are wearing PJ's or gym shorts with no belt loops because there are no belt loops obviously, and the elastic waist band also helps with the draw.

Also the book "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob I think really helped me keep a cool head, diffuse the situation, and posture myself as to not look like a victim. When the guy asked me again for a ride after I declined the first time, he was hoping I would cave and I countered with a "someone is expecting me".

I was carrying a 1999 Glock 26 that night. I think this was before Glock started putting heavier striker springs in the gun so it's somewhere between a factory Gen 3 pull and a 3.5# connector pull. My handguns are always condition 1 only and my wife knows it also. I tell her it's point and shoot like a TV remote. You never have to check to see if one is in the chamber. I also keep all my handguns holstered. The holster is my safety and if you are drawing the gun with your index finger in the correct position along the frame of the gun there are no concerns.

[Kobalt60]

Thanks Xenology. I appreciate the account. I guess I'll take a good look at it and how my pistol fits in the pocket to determine how comfortable I am with the trigger weight on my Glock. Ed makes a good point and I don't think carrying without one in the chamber is an option unless I felt the trigger was not covered, such as in mexican carry. I may put a NY spring in there just for piece of mind if the denim seems at all flimsy. There is a fair bit of take up in the G23 trigger, so there's some added margin as well.

The dynamics of drawing from deep concealment are interesting and Xenology seems to bring up a big down side. But I still think the SmartCarry/Thunderwear type holsters fill a niche very well by allowing the wearer to carry a lot of firepower in situations where the alternative would be minimal (pocket gun) or no firepower at all.

[Erik]

If you're uncomfortable with the reduced trigger protection associated with some of the deep concealment methods, why not just put a kydex trigger cover (e.g. MIC or Fricke Zacceus) on the gun before it goes in your Smartcarry or whatever.

The Fricke Zacceus has a short loop of cord that attaches to your belt, belt loop, or whatever, so the gun comes free of the Kydex as you draw. I've no experience with the MIC, but it appears to be the same concept.


This does work if you choose to try it.