The Achilles' heel of the Beretta (Broken locking block)

[David B.]

I was shooting my 92A1 that I purchased almost a year ago. The gun has approx., 15k rounds through it. It was functioning fine until I went to load another mag and chamber a round. I felt a distinct "hitch" as I retracted the slide.

I knew it didn't feel right and further examination showed the broken block. Left wing sheered right off.

Take a look.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/Apostolos/bb1_zpsadd52066.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/Apostolos/media/bb1_zpsadd52066.jpg.html)
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/Apostolos/bb2_zps0142bda0.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/Apostolos/media/bb2_zps0142bda0.jpg.html)

I've had locking blocks go double the amount of rounds that this one went without any failures. This is definitely a premature failure.

Thankfully I had a spare locking block and after swapping the broken one out with the spare the gun functioned fine for another couple hundred rounds allowing me to finish my practice today.

Time to order another spare.

God Bless,
David

[JV_]

Are you fitting the spare, or just dropping them in?

IIRC, one leg can wear more than the other, which makes the one side that's making contact take almost all of the force. If you don't fit it for even contact, you'll get an early failure.

[Clyde from Carolina]

Are you fitting the spare, or just dropping them in?

IIRC, one leg can wear more than the other, which makes the one side that's making contact take almost all of the force. If you don't fit it for even contact, you'll get an early failure.

Good info. JV, I didn't know that.

[David B.]

Are you fitting the spare, or just dropping them in?

IIRC, one leg can wear more than the other, which makes the one side that's making contact take almost all of the force. If you don't fit it for even contact, you'll get an early failure.

Yeah, the wings need to sit flush with the slide cuts. No fitting was necessary (IMO) with the spare I put in.

Of course the block that broke was the original one that came in the gun. I never examined the fit closely, however, since they are just drop in parts, maybe there was a fitment/tolerance issue from the factory. I don't know.

15k is a little premature. Beretta states on their website that "The average durability of M9 locking blocks is 22,000 rounds." http://www.berettausa.com/products/model-92a1/

God bless,
David

[ToddG]

15k is a little premature. Beretta states on their website that "The average durability of M9 locking blocks is 22,000 rounds." http://www.berettausa.com/products/model-92a1/

The key word in that statement is average.

In all my time shooting Berettas both before and while I was working there, I only broke a single locking block. But it wasn't uncommon to see guns that had less than 10k break a block. We had a few confirmed cases where they broke at less than 2k. It's just the nature of the part. Most are great, some are ok, and a few are flawed.

[David B.]

In all my time shooting Berettas both before and while I was working there, I only broke a single locking block.

Do you remember how many rounds you had through the gun?


It's just the nature of the part. Most are great, some are ok, and a few are flawed.

I think that's a good assessment.

God Bless,
David

[ToddG]

Do you remember how many rounds you had through the gun?

I don't. And all my Beretta data is gone.

[Sal Picante]

I've got a lot of rounds through my Elite... I know Ben has triple the amount through his E2... So far, so good!

Curious, what were you feeding the gun? (I've been shooting mostly 133 PF 124 gr loads... Mild stuff. )

[ToddG]

I'm not clear on what equals triple of "a lot" ... :cool:

The majority of the ammo I was shooting was standard pressure Blazer and AmEag.

The Beretta Academy armorer program used to tell a tale about a celebrity with a 92FS that went 100,000 rounds on a single locking block. I've never personally seen one that used or known someone I trusted who got that far but just as there are plenty that will fail before the 22k average, plenty will go well past it.

[DocGKR]

My circa 1986 Italian made 92F that I went though Police Academy with fired over 25,000 malfunction free shots on the original locking block...

[JAD]

So this is a serious, honest question. Those of you who carry the 92 have a gun that is going to stop working at some point, like T.U. full stop. Is that ok? All pistols suck, but that strikes me as a flaw that could be avoided. Small risk that it will happen off the range though with a 22k MTBF.

Jon
Dallas

[fixer]

Makes me want to track my round count much, much closer on my 92s. Or at least start. :o

[37th Mass]

David B., Are you still using the original recoil spring assembly? I don't know about the A1 models, but on standard 92's I believe the recommend replacement interval for the recoil spring is every 5,000 rounds.

[DanH]

On Beretta's website a locking block kit was listed at $36. I think that is not particularly bad for a part with a estimated life of 20k+ rounds. Even for half that lifespan I wouldn't think it was too bad. Granted, I would prefer it show some signs of wear before actually breaking, but hey you can't have everything.

[David B.]

David B., Are you still using the original recoil spring assembly? I don't know about the A1 models, but on standard 92's I believe the recommend replacement interval for the recoil spring is every 5,000 rounds.

I've changed out the spring every 5k rounds. I don't believe this is a maintenance or ammo issue.

God bless,
David

[David B.]

So this is a serious, honest question. Those of you who carry the 92 have a gun that is going to stop working at some point, like T.U. full stop. Is that ok? All pistols suck, but that strikes me as a flaw that could be avoided. Small risk that it will happen off the range though with a 22k MTBF.

Jon
Dallas

I'm an advocate for having two guns setup identical. One gun is training/comp and the other is carry. The training/comp gun gets beat while the carry gun gets babied.

Of course the carry gun is properly vetted before it gets carried.

God bless,
David

[Sal Picante]

So this is a serious, honest question. Those of you who carry the 92 have a gun that is going to stop working at some point, like T.U. full stop. Is that ok? All pistols suck, but that strikes me as a flaw that could be avoided. Small risk that it will happen off the range though with a 22k MTBF.

Jon
Dallas

That's why they have two wings - you could shoot the gun if you needed.

That said, anything mechanical will fail at some point. They keep point is preventative maintenance.

[ToddG]

That's why they have two wings - you could shoot the gun if you needed.

I'm not understanding you. You're not saying the gun will still work when one of the wings breaks off, are you?

[David B.]

Just got off the phone with Eric at BUSA (great customer service rep) and he's going to ship me out another locking block for free since my gun is still under warranty.

What I like about Eric is that he's one of the most knowledgeable customer service reps I've spoken with at BUSA. Granted, I haven't had to call there much, but I was impressed with him. He's definitely a shooter and enjoys full-size Berettas.

He knew about Josh at AGW and might even purchase one of Josh's low profile decockers after I told him how awesome they are. :D

So I got a new locking block in route, Beretta customer service was great, and I can't wait to go out and shoot my 92A1 some more. :cool:

God Bless,
David

[JonInWA]

I seem to recall from one of Todd's blogs after he went through the Beretta Armorer's course in a previous lifetime that the falling block was anything but an Achielles heel-it was an inherent conceptual part of the overall gun design, and while yes, if has a forecastable lifespan, it's far less expensive to replace, then, say, a Browning system gun's entire barrel, as when the lug(s) wear or the foot cracks due to wear.

The last time I talked about it with Randall La Porte at BUSA a couple of years ago, when I solicited him the advisability of replacing my "Gen 2" locking block with the current one, he suggested that I just shoot mine, that at the round count that I was at replacement as preventive maintenance was pretty much premature/unnecessary. He had a 92 with the original Gen 1 block that he's used for years and years. Mine has been chugging along faithfully since 2006, when I got my 92D brand new; although I've used it for up to 6 months at a wack for carry and IDPA in the past couple of years, my overall roundcount is still fairly low-under 10K rounds (with much more dry fire with it).

Todd, as I recall in that article that you stated that a cracked locking block could be used for up to 700 rounds further (assuming, I presume, that said block remained "cracked," not "fractured"). If so, and assuming that said user checks, cleans, and lubricated said gun after shooting sessions, that should give sufficient time to get a replacement block, and have it properly fitted.

I like the 92 series. It's big for a 9mm, has some relatively "old school" springing, screw-on grips, and is somewhat lubrication intensive, and is relatively thick (particularly with the OEM and most aftermarket grips), but is well built and reliable. To me, the weakest point in the design as it comes out-of-the-box is the lever-type trigger return spring, which has a forecasted 5k manipulation lifespan. While relatively easily replaced (and several years ago revamped by Beretta, so in its current incarnation it probably at least has a reasonable chance of actually surviving for 5K trigger manipulations), it is a bit more difficult and time-consuming than merely swapping out a recoil spring; I much prefer the Wolff TCU captured coil spring trigger return set-up for increased durability, but said TCU requires the old steel trigger, not the current polymer trigger encasing a steel insert stub. However, BUSA does have an inexpensive kit providing the original steel trigger, a replacement trigger return spring, and a "D" type mainspring...well worth considering.

Other springs I routinely replace every 5K rounds or so is the triggerbar spring, the slide release spring, and the recoil spring. The Wolff slide release spring is particularly advisable, as they make it easier to install and secure by slightly increasing it's length on one end, precluding its slipping off the slide release when installing. I feel comfortable in using/recommending either OEM Beretta springs or Wolff ones.

Best, Jon

[JAD]

I vet pistols at 2000 rounds. Todd's seen failures at ~2000 rounds. That would make me nervous. Then again, there's a ton of crap that can break (if improperly fitted anyway) on the 1911s I carry -- none that stop the gun from running, but... Well, I guess that's a fairly significant difference. Whatever -- Chow Yun Fat rocked two, they must work.


Jon
Dallas

[ToddG]

JonInWA -- That armorer class report was written before I went to work for Beretta and was basically just regurgitating what they told us. Suffice to say that after working there for three years (and having the academy/instructors reporting to me for two of those) and after working at SIG for five years, I'm less blindly trusting of what's said in armorer classes these days.

The 700rd safe harbor between when a crack forms and a break occurs is a good example of that. I've seen very few locking blocks that had visible cracks but weren't broken into pieces.

The point about the wear of the locking block vs. barrel/slide, while true, was also probably more marketing hype than realistic benefit. How many people have had the lockup on the SIGs or Glocks fail them? Dramatically fewer than the number of people who've had locking blocks fail.

This isn't a bash against the Beretta. I still love my 92G. They're reliable guns and when properly maintained they are far more durable than most people will ever need to worry about.

JAD -- Any gun made today can have parts failure at <2,000 rounds. It's just luck of the draw. Modern manufacturing processes for parts, especially small internal parts, is based on mass production more than individual guaranteed perfection. Will the trigger bar on a Glock break at 1,000 rounds? Almost certainly not. Almost. But someone out there in the universe of 5M+ Glocks has one that's going to break real soon. Sucks to be him.

[5pins]

That's why they have two wings - you could shoot the gun if you needed.



We had a locking block fail a few month ago and the slide and barrel where completely locked up.

[Sal Picante]

I'm not understanding you. You're not saying the gun will still work when one of the wings breaks off, are you?

Hell no! Just that a cracked block could still work - as opposed to a fractured block.

[ToddG]

Hell no! Just that a cracked block could still work - as opposed to a fractured block.

Understood. Sorry for the confusion.

[Tamara]

Then again, there's a ton of crap that can break (if improperly fitted anyway) on the 1911s I carry -- none that stop the gun from running...

Slide stop plunger. Barrel link. There are others. But, hey, Sergeant York rocked one; it must work. :p

(I'm sorry, I've just seen way too many broken guns to get all worked up about another one. Guns break; it's what they do. You know how service writers get to see a lot of broken cars? Well, that's how I feel about guns.)

[LSP972]

But, hey, Sergeant York rocked one; it must work. :p

)

Yeah. I hear Jack Bauer is coming back. That will make me feel LOTS more secure about my HK.

.

[JAD]

Slide stop plunger. Barrel link. There are others. But, hey, Sergeant York rocked one; it must work. :p


The link! I knew that one. Slide stop plunger just makes the gun manually operated, I thought.

[Tamara]

Slide stop plunger just makes the gun manually operated, I thought.

Well, it would be more accurate to say "the whole slide stop plunger ass'y and the way it interfaces with the slide stop and thumb safety and the detents thereof." There are a variety of exotic failure modes that can occur among those six parts.

[Sal Picante]

Understood. Sorry for the confusion.

I know I'm a retard, but not that retarded!

[David B.]

Beretta Rocks!!!

I received two locking block kits in the mail today. Of course the locking block kit also includes a recoil spring, locking block plunger and roll pin.

Eric sent me two free of charge. Cheers Beretta. Here is to another 15k rounds.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/Apostolos/lbk_zps6337deeb.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/Apostolos/media/lbk_zps6337deeb.jpg.html)

God Bless,
David

[fixer]

Way to go Beretta.

[Clyde from Carolina]

Good for them! I need to spend some more quality time with my good old 92FS. This thread makes it more likely.:cool:

[LSP972]

One wonders if I should acquire a couple of these for my two. One is like-new, the other has less than 2K rounds through it so far. They are my grandson's pistols, and will get shot regularly, though not "hard".

These cost, what... $30/$40 bucks for the "kit"?

.

[David B.]

I have approximately 13k rounds on the replacement locking block and I noticed this chip on the left wing the other day.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/Apostolos/Lockingblockchip_zps158cab76.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/Apostolos/media/Lockingblockchip_zps158cab76.jpg.html)
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/Apostolos/lockingblockchip2_zps70a63d6e.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/Apostolos/media/lockingblockchip2_zps70a63d6e.jpg.html)

I've decided to keep the locking block in a little longer since this is my training gun. Hopefully that won't prove to be catastrophically stupid. I don't want to damage my frame if the locking block block fails, but I'm curious to see how long it will go.

I've got 300 rounds through it since I noticed the chip. Let's see what happens.

God Bless,
David

[5pins]

I could be wrong but it looks like it’s already cracking.
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2915/13904763563_9abaf26258_b.jpg

[JV_]

Don't risk it, fit a new one.

[David B.]

I could be wrong but it looks like it’s already cracking.


I thought I'd better pop it out and take a closer look after you circled the "crack."

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/Apostolos/lockingblockclean_zps62db7c60.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/Apostolos/media/lockingblockclean_zps62db7c60.jpg.html)

I cleaned it off and put it under a magnifying glass and I really can't discern anything abnormal other than the chip. I'm going to run three hundred more rounds through it tomorrow keeping a close eye on it.

God Bless,
David

[GJM]

Bill Rogers commented that the 92 is his favorite gun to shoot, but he wished it was more durable.

[Spr1]

I thought I'd better pop it out and take a closer look after you circled the "crack."

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/Apostolos/lockingblockclean_zps62db7c60.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/Apostolos/media/lockingblockclean_zps62db7c60.jpg.html)

I cleaned it off and put it under a magnifying glass and I really can't discern anything abnormal other than the chip. I'm going to run three hundred more rounds through it tomorrow keeping a close eye on it.

God Bless,
David
That pic is the wrong direction to look for the start of a crack. The one circled by 5pins pretty clearly shows something suspicious.

[David B.]

After 300 rounds today, there is no doubt it's cracked. It's gotten worse and the crack is very discernible now.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/Apostolos/BLB1_zpsf35f4b64.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/Apostolos/media/BLB1_zpsf35f4b64.jpg.html)
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/Apostolos/BLB2_zps43a9c75c.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/Apostolos/media/BLB2_zps43a9c75c.jpg.html)
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/Apostolos/BLB3_zps224f71bd.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/Apostolos/media/BLB3_zps224f71bd.jpg.html)

I'm glade I caught it before it completely sheered off. That makes two locking blocks (original and replacement). The first one lasted around 15k rounds and this one around 13K rounds. Both broke the exact same way.

Thankfully Beretta sent me two replacements for free when the first one died. I'll drop another one in tomorrow and hopefully this one will make it at least 20k rounds.

God bless,
David

[Suvorov]

That's a crack all right!

Check out Bill Riehl's post (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?12018-92-Locking-Blocks) as I think you may have some things he is looking for if you haven't already seen it.

So, I'm beginning to think that 10,000 rounds would be a pretty safe point to replace one's locking blocks?

[Slavex]

Wow, 5pins nailed that didn't he? Interesting that when you cleaned it up the crack vanished.
Definitely send that to Bill.

[David B.]

Wow, 5pins nailed that didn't he? Interesting that when you cleaned it up the crack vanished.
Definitely send that to Bill.

He sure did.

I think when I cleaned it up that it took the contrast away which was so visible in the digital picture. I might have even filled in the crack a little bit by wiping it down. However, after the last 300 rounds it really opened up. I suspect it would have sheered completely off at the next range session. It actually went six hundred rounds after I first noticed the chip. I really don't know how long it was chipped for before I noticed it.

God Bless,
David

[shootist26]

how often do you replace the recoil spring?

[David B.]

how often do you replace the recoil spring?

Factory recoil spring every 5k rounds.

God Bless,
David

[GJM]

Does a new locking block drop in or need to be fitted?

[Suvorov]

Does a new locking block drop in or need to be fitted?

In theory they are drop in parts. However if you have a 1st or 2nd generation block, you will have to change out the plunger as well as the 3rd gen went with a smaller plunger (I assume to add more "beef" to the block). You should check to make sure that the lugs lock evenly into the slide and if they don't you should do a little filing of the lug to fit them. The blocks I've replaced didn't really need any fitting but some filing to the front edge of the lugs (where they mate with the slide) might be needed if you have some uneven wear, otherwise one lug will end up carrying most of the load during recoil and be prone to failure sooner.

[azerious]

Hell in all honesty, a $35-$40 part every 10,000-15,000 rounds (low conservative count) is not bad. I mean that is close to $2700 in just ammo alone. So realistically not bad at all.

I would not dub it the "Achilles Heel" necessarily. I see this as standard maintenance. Now if I had to send it in or pay over $100 for a part every 10,000 rounds...that would be an Achilles heel.

[BLR]

After 300 rounds today, there is no doubt it's cracked. It's gotten worse and the crack is very discernible now.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/Apostolos/BLB1_zpsf35f4b64.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/Apostolos/media/BLB1_zpsf35f4b64.jpg.html)
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/Apostolos/BLB2_zps43a9c75c.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/Apostolos/media/BLB2_zps43a9c75c.jpg.html)
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/Apostolos/BLB3_zps224f71bd.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/Apostolos/media/BLB3_zps224f71bd.jpg.html)

I'm glade I caught it before it completely sheered off. That makes two locking blocks (original and replacement). The first one lasted around 15k rounds and this one around 13K rounds. Both broke the exact same way.

Thankfully Beretta sent me two replacements for free when the first one died. I'll drop another one in tomorrow and hopefully this one will make it at least 20k rounds.

God bless,
David

Any chance I could get one of the broken blocks? I'd happily pay for it.

And I'd love to take a look at the slide.

[JAD]

. I see this as standard maintenance. .

Is the number of cycles before a significant risk of failure predictable?

[Dave Berryhill]

Are those tool marks on the surface of the radius cut or peening from use?

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/Apostolos/BLB2_zps43a9c75c.jpg

I'm no engineer but if those are tool marks, wouldn't that be a stress riser vs. a smooth finish? It kind of defeats the purpose of putting a radius there, doesn't it?

[GardoneVT]

Are those tool marks on the surface of the radius cut or peening from use?

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/Apostolos/BLB2_zps43a9c75c.jpg

I'm no engineer but if those are tool marks, wouldn't that be a stress riser vs. a smooth finish? It kind of defeats the purpose of putting a radius there, doesn't it?


Here's some photos of the locking block on my 2012 vintage 92FS at near 2400 rounds of wear .The resolution's not the best, but hopefully this helps out .

http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y528/GardoneVT/IMAG0611_zps69d24be7.jpg

http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y528/GardoneVT/IMAG0609_zpsbb9c6d4f.jpg

http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y528/GardoneVT/IMAG0608_zpscfe99f69.jpg

http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y528/GardoneVT/IMAG0612_zps4458b68d.jpg

http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y528/GardoneVT/IMAG0610_zpsf5b0c961.jpg

[David B.]

Any chance I could get one of the broken blocks? I'd happily pay for it.

And I'd love to take a look at the slide.

Hi,

I don't mind sending you one of the broken blocks, either the cracked one or the one that actually sheered, whichever one you want is fine.

However, the slide is a little tricky since I'm using this gun on a regular basis as my primary training gun. Therefore, I wouldn't want to be without the slide for several weeks.

P.M. me your mailing address and I'll get whatever block you want out to you if you think it's useful even though you don't have the slide. Let me know what you'd like to do.

God bless,
David

[Rmiked]

If a locking block failed when firing, can you get hurt? I guess they all fail when firing the last shot before failure. What does the pistol do in your hands when one side fails?

[LockedBreech]

I'm no expert, but I don't think the likelihood of injury is very high. Most of the locking block is down in the guts of the pistol with only the two "wings" exposed to the air. I think if a block breaks it just locks the gun up.


If a locking block failed when firing, can you get hurt? I guess they all fail when firing the last shot before failure. What does the pistol do in your hands when one side fails?

[farscott]

When the block breaks, it could damage the slide. I have never heard of an injury from a block failure, but more than one slide has been damaged enough to be un-serviceable upon locking block failure.

[Rmiked]

I see the locking block as a maintenance issue only. Like the recoil spring, it has a finite life. If a block can last 20,000 rounds, would the barrel chamber and rifling grooves also be worn out? Beretta sells a barrel assembly including locking block, plunger and pin completely assembled for $129. I am new to pistols but for example a 300 Win Mag rifle might start showing group sizes opening up (throat erosion in chamber) at 1500 rounds depending on quality of barrel and how "hot" loads are. It is common for shooters to replace barrels. Many of you know this. Is this phenomenon applicable to semi auto pistols? Being a rookie with pistols I would guess that the chambers are not as tight to allow for fast cycling. However, after seeing a high quality AR platform (e.g. GA Precision GAP 10) shoot 0.5-0.75 MOA, I understand amazing precision is not necessarily mutually exclusive with fast cycling in semi auto platform. I have digressed here but the maintenance issue has me wondering IF the barrrel would need replacement by the time the locking block would (20,000 rounds). My point about Beretta 92 series pistols is I think the design is amazing, reliable, and effective. I see the locking block as just maintenance.

[Jeep]

My understanding is that a Beretta barrel will normally last for well over 20,000 rounds and the newer locking blocks are lasting much longer than the older ones. Since most pistols fire far fewer that 20,000 rounds in their lives, there should be no problem.

However, for high-round count guns, what you say makes sense--particularly if they are used for more than training purposes.

[Scal]

So looking elsewhere on the web, I see that Chris Bartocci, who is a Beretta Armorer and SAR writer mentioned an endurance test that he shot with an M9. One thing that came up on the endurance test write up is that pitting on the locking block will be visible before cracking, and in the case of the endurance test, that was approximately 4000 rounds prior to failure. The pitting indicates a need to replace the block. I do see pitting on the pictures of the blocks that David B showed, but I am not sure that is precisely what Mr. Bartocci mentioned. Does anyone here know specifically what and where you need to inspect to detect this?

[JAD]

If a locking block failed when firing, can you get hurt?

Depends who you're shooting at.

If a locking block is a PM issue, what's the predictable mean time between failures?

[Rmiked]

Good point! I was assuming practice use. But you make a good point that the pistol can't be reliable if the locking block fails. In a self defense scenario, you would need defensive action like running or taking cover. JAD posted 22,000 rounds MTBF on 5-16-13. I am too new to know. I figure it will be while before I hit 10,000 rounds because I am at 250 now after 10 days of ownership. I like cleaning the pistol because it's so easy to field strip and I like taking care of all my firearms. I plan on looking at it with reading glasses when I clean it. When I registered my 92A1 via web, I got a Beretta response saying the 1 year warranty was extended to 3 years by registering w/in 30 days of purchase. If no problems by 3 years I think I would just replace barrel and locking block assembly between 15,000 and 20,000 rounds. $129 from Beretta for assembly. That will probably take me 5 years or more.

[Lomshek]

Good point! I was assuming practice use. But you make a good point that the pistol can't be reliable if the locking block fails. In a self defense scenario, you would need defensive action like running or taking cover. JAD posted 22,000 rounds MTBF on 5-16-13. I am too new to know. I figure it will be while before I hit 10,000 rounds because I am at 250 now after 10 days of ownership. I like cleaning the pistol because it's so easy to field strip and I like taking care of all my firearms. I plan on looking at it with reading glasses when I clean it. When I registered my 92A1 via web, I got a Beretta response saying the 1 year warranty was extended to 3 years by registering w/in 30 days of purchase. If no problems by 3 years I think I would just replace barrel and locking block assembly between 15,000 and 20,000 rounds. $129 from Beretta for assembly. That will probably take me 5 years or more.

The barrel's probably good for over 50,000 rounds. Replace your recoil spring and trigger return spring (or get the Wolf TRS kit) every 5,000 or less and call Beretta to find out the round count they suggest replacing the locking block.

Holy necro post Batman!!! Bringing back a thread from the grave.

[HCM]

The barrel's probably good for over 50,000 rounds. Replace your recoil spring and trigger return spring (or get the Wolf TRS kit) every 5,000 or less and call Beretta to find out the round count they suggest replacing the locking block.

Holy necro post Batman!!! Bringing back a thread from the grave.

Speaking of I saw Dave Berryhill posted back in 2014. Unfortunately He is no longer with us.

[OlongJohnson]

I would just replace barrel and locking block assembly between 15,000 and 20,000 rounds. $129 from Beretta for assembly.

Driving the old pin out and a new pin in is armorer-level work. Any smith should be able to handle it.

http://www.berettausa.com/en-us/beretta-92-96-locking-block-kit/le9201/

Full retail on a block kit is $35. No need to buy an assembly and replace the barrel. Even if you have to buy a small vise or armorer's block, hammer, roll pin starter punch and finishing punch, you'll save money swapping the parts.

I'd read further on locking block life. There are, if I remember, at least three generations of them, and the latest ones are supposed to be quite a bit improved over earlier parts.

[HCM]

I see the locking block as a maintenance issue only. Like the recoil spring, it has a finite life. If a block can last 20,000 rounds, would the barrel chamber and rifling grooves also be worn out? Beretta sells a barrel assembly including locking block, plunger and pin completely assembled for $129. I am new to pistols but for example a 300 Win Mag rifle might start showing group sizes opening up (throat erosion in chamber) at 1500 rounds depending on quality of barrel and how "hot" loads are. It is common for shooters to replace barrels. Many of you know this. Is this phenomenon applicable to semi auto pistols? Being a rookie with pistols I would guess that the chambers are not as tight to allow for fast cycling. However, after seeing a high quality AR platform (e.g. GA Precision GAP 10) shoot 0.5-0.75 MOA, I understand amazing precision is not necessarily mutually exclusive with fast cycling in semi auto platform. I have digressed here but the maintenance issue has me wondering IF the barrrel would need replacement by the time the locking block would (20,000 rounds). My point about Beretta 92 series pistols is I think the design is amazing, reliable, and effective. I see the locking block as just maintenance.

Rifles and pistols are different.

Pistol rounds operate at much lower temperature and pressure than rifle rounds.

Those same factors, temperature and pressure are why a .300 win mag barrel wears faster than a .308 or .30-06.

For example an AR-15 .223 barrel will usually last between 10k and 20k rounds depending on materials and firing schedule. A service pistol barrel can last 50k to 100k rounds in a service caliber. A barrel shot with lead or coated bullets will last longer than one shot with jacketed bullets.

As for locking blocks on Berettas, yes they are a wear item. I believe Beretta is on its third generation of locking blocks. The re- design and reduction of stress point has increased the service life to 20k if properly fitted. The block will last longer if the two engagement points on either side fit evenly. You can just drop them in but if all the engagement is all on one side service like is greatly reduced.

[MSparks909]

Does the barrel-to-muzzle interface have any bearing on how the locking block is fit? I ask because on my new-to-me 92 Centurion, I dropped in a new barrel and the barrel is nearly perfectly concentric to the hole in the slide when in battery. On my Elite 2 and Brig Tac, both barrels seem to be touching the slide at about the 7-8 o'clock point if you're looking at the muzzle. IE they are not concentric and it is quite visually apparent. Does that mean one side of the locking block is bearing more of the load? Thus changing the lockup point? Both the E2 and Brig Tac are factory guns. My M9A3's barrel/slide seem nearly perfectly concentric like my Centurion. I notice no accuracy issues with any guns and they all shoot to point of aim with the sights centered but figured I'd ask the more knowledgeable Beretta folk here.

[Sal Picante]

Those barrels last a long time... into the hundreds of thousands of rounds...

I've only ever broken 1 locking block.

Most of the barrels kinda favor one side or the other - I don't see the block as influencing that as much as the fit in the slide-rails for the barrel.

[Rmiked]

I commented on this exact issue in my first post about 10 days ago. I believe the direction the barrel is pointed is precisely determined by the interface between the locking block side lugs and the lower frame surfaces they mate with. My pistol barrel contacts the left side of sight hood about 700 looking at muzzle down barrel. In a Leather bag my pistol from bench is 3" right of center which Beretta claims is within their specs. I have seen new pistols that are concentric within sight hood but most favor one side or the other. It is all manufacturing tolerances and just random luck if it is centered. I believe I could file the lug on barrel (not frame) on same side which is touching at sight hood. I believe I calculated I would need to remove 0.002" to move mine to center. My barrel is about 16 MOA off center. I am not going to file anything. Until I can shoot 3" groups at 20 yards, it is round off for me. But it bugs me that a military spec says an expert marksman must shoot 3" groups at 50 meters when the barrel is going to center the groups 8" right of point of aim. I am aware someone's shooting technique can have them consistently pulling or pushing shots one way or another. So what matters is where are my groups centering. So far I can't see any pattern one way or another left or right. I would be interested to know if someone here can shoot 3" groups at 20 yards and knows their sights are misaligned to their barrel and actually sees the groups consistently right or left? If I was that good, I would drift my sights to correct for it. Without using my Leather rest, I can't shoot that steady yet. Only 250 rounds through my first semi auto. I shoot my SW 686, with 6" barrel better. Rear sight adjustable both directions. I am really liking this semi auto stuff but just not good yet. Any advice on attitude toward misaligned barrel and sights appreciated. Again, Beretta says 3.5" off center at 25 yds is within spec.

[Shipwreck]

I have previously read that the locking blocks should be changed every 20k rounds. I have seen enough posts over the years thats how them breaking on a few guns right after 15k.

I change them at 15k, personally. And, I usually change the recoils pring every 3750-4k rounds. The spring is noticeably shorter next to a new recoil spring. It may be overkill, but I also replace the trigger spring, trigger bar spring and slide stop spring when I change the recoil spring. That way I know when its been done.

[EVP]

Was searching and collecting B92 knowledge and ran across this this thread.

Does anyone in this resurgence of B92 beginning to approach 15k?
Can anyone point on to how to fit a locking block?

Just looking to learn any knowledge on b92s and maintance and such.

[Trooper224]

Was searching and collecting B92 knowledge and ran across this this thread.

Does anyone in this resurgence of B92 beginning to approach 15k?
Can anyone point on to how to fit a locking block?

Just looking to learn any knowledge on b92s and maintance and such.

Yesterday the locking block on my training gun broke at just shy of 16k rounds. This was the factory installed block in this particular pistol. This is also an example of the benefit of a training gun.

The front of the lugs on the locking block are the key engagement surfaces. You need to make sure there's equal contact with the slide on both lugs. If not, lightly stone or file the correct lug until equal contact is achieved. On the one that just failed, there was equal wear on both lugs and no outward indications that failure was imminent. I always replace mine around 18k, this is the first one that hasn't made it. I had been using a Wilson Combat flatwire recoil spring in this particular gun. The "last spring you'll ever need" wound up being anything but and after around 8-10k rounds I could feel the slide slamming into the frame on recoil. When I removed the spring and proprietary guide rod, the assembly literally fell out into my hand, as the spring no longer had enough tension to hold it in place. I suspect this caused premature fatigue on the locking block.

[EVP]

Good info Trooper224

From what I have read it seems like it would be a good idea to replace the locking block at 10k for insurance and peace of mind.

I also wonder how lighter hammer and recoil springs can effect wear the same as worn springs.

[MattyD380]

The front of the lugs on the locking block are the key engagement surfaces. You need to make sure there's equal contact with the slide on both lugs

This is something I need to check on my gun. I don't have more than 2000 rounds on it, but I haven't really payed attention to the wear patterns on the lugs. I'm also curious how it relates to this:


Does the barrel-to-muzzle interface have any bearing on how the locking block is fit? I ask because on my new-to-me 92 Centurion, I dropped in a new barrel and the barrel is nearly perfectly concentric to the hole in the slide when in battery. On my Elite 2 and Brig Tac, both barrels seem to be touching the slide at about the 7-8 o'clock point if you're looking at the muzzle. IE they are not concentric and it is quite visually apparent. Does that mean one side of the locking block is bearing more of the load? Thus changing the lockup point?

I've always wondered what makes 92 barrels (often) cockeyed. And how they can still shoot POA when the front sight isn't aligned to the bore. I started a thread on it, a while back:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?26090-Cockeyed-Beretta-92-barrels

[Trooper224]

Good info Trooper224

From what I have read it seems like it would be a good idea to replace the locking block at 10k for insurance and peace of mind.

I also wonder how lighter hammer and recoil springs can effect wear the same as worn springs.

I don't know if I'd get as extreme as every 10k. Although, if it was my only gun, then that would be cheap insurance. Arbitrarily replacing hammer springs in order to lighten the trigger has really become a thing over the last few years. The slides momentum is directly effected by both the recoil and hammer springs. If one is lightened to an extreme level the other one should be balanced. The lighter the hammer spring, the less force the slide has to overcome during its rearward movement, which can increase battering.

[Trooper224]

This is something I need to check on my gun. I don't have more than 2000 rounds on it, but I haven't really payed attention to the wear patterns on the lugs. I'm also curious how it relates to this:



I've always wondered what makes 92 barrels (often) cockeyed. And how they can still shoot POA when the front sight isn't aligned to the bore. I started a thread on it, a while back:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?26090-Cockeyed-Beretta-92-barrels

I think it might. I've swapped barrels around on 92s to change the POI, which it's done every time. On the previous two or three shooting sessions with this 92, it had suddenly moved its point of impact a couple of inches to the right. I wasn't doing anything different so it had me a bit confused and frustrated in equal measure. Then, at the end of this last session I disassembled the gun and found the broken locking block. I had already replaced the Wilson flat wire spring with a conventional one (but not a new one) a few hundred rounds before, that's when the gun shifted its POI. As I said earlier, the wear pattern on the block was even and I didn't see anything that said, "Hey, this is going to fail if you don't fix it." I suspect the recoil spring is the main culprit. I can usually tell when a conventional spring needs replacement by the way the guns feels during its recoil cycle. I normally change them around 3k rounds, because that's when I feel a difference start up. I ran the Wilson spring up to 8-10k rounds to see if it would live up to the hype, but didn't feel any significant change until well into that. Then, when I disassembled the gun the spring literally fell out, so it was completely shot by then. I will admit that I've gotten very lazy about my training gun. I think it's been about 3k rounds since I last cleaned it and I don't disassemble it one a regular basis. I just lube it on occasion. So, the locking block could have been showing signs of impending failure and I didn't catch it.

[MattyD380]

I had already replaced the Wilson flat wire spring with a conventional one (but not a new one) a few hundred rounds before, that's when the gun shifted its POI.

Hmm. So you're thinking the recoil spring tension might actually impact the POI? I guess the spring does put pressure on the locking block.

Also interesting you saw POI vary when swapping barrels. Both 92s I've had non-centered barrels... neither seemed to affect the POI (at 10 -15 yards, anyway). I wonder if they sight the guns in at the factory based on their barrel orientation? In any case, my left-leaning 92 really never lets me down in the accuracy department.

[Trooper224]

Hmm. So you're thinking the recoil spring tension might actually impact the POI? I guess the spring does put pressure on the locking block.

Also interesting you saw POI vary when swapping barrels. Both 92s I've had non-centered barrels... neither seemed to affect the POI (at 10 -15 yards, anyway). I wonder if they sight the guns in at the factory based on their barrel orientation? In any case, my left-leaning 92 really never lets me down in the accuracy department.

My thinking is more that the condition of the locking block might have shifted the point of impact. I saw a shift in POI at 25 yards when swapping barrels.

[Redhat]

I don't know if I'd get as extreme as every 10k. Although, if it was my only gun, then that would be cheap insurance. Arbitrarily replacing hammer springs in order to lighten the trigger has really become a thing over the last few years. The slides momentum is directly effected by both the recoil and hammer springs. If one is lightened to an extreme level the other one should be balanced. The lighter the hammer spring, the less force the slide has to overcome during its rearward movement, which can increase battering.

I brought up the subject of hammer spring replacement in this thread just the other day:

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?31731-Broke-some-M9-s-today/page5

Post #42

[Trooper224]

I brought up the subject of hammer spring replacement in this thread just the other day:

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?31731-Broke-some-M9-s-today/page5

Post #42

I agree. Years of working with 1911s and Browning High Powers showed me the importance of these things. Nearly every part on a firearm effects a couple of other parts and so on. Springs are no different. I don't think it's a big issue until you start going with really light hammer springs like a lot of Beretta owners are doing. On a 1911 anywhere from a 14 to 18 pound recoil spring wouldn't require a change. Lighter than 14 and you're best advised to bump up the hammer spring a bit to compensate. This is involving the use of service loads, not light competition stuff. It was even more important with the Browning HP, which is more delicate. If you intended to shoot a lot of +P ammo, which I did, a heavier recoil spring was necessary to prevent battering the gun to death. Likewise, lightening the hammer spring was cause for upping the RS weight for the same reasons.

[MattyD380]

My thinking is more that the condition of the locking block might have shifted the point of impact. I saw a shift in POI at 25 yards when swapping barrels.

Gotcha. Makes sense. Just got back from the range with my 92c actually... still the gun I shoot best. Its (slightly) left-leaning barrel doesn't seem to affect POI... at least to the point where I can tell, given my skill level. Easily punched the center out of a target at 10 yards.

[Jeep]

I agree. Years of working with 1911s and Browning High Powers showed me the importance of these things. Nearly every part on a firearm effects a couple of other parts and so on. Springs are no different. I don't think it's a big issue until you start going with really light hammer springs like a lot of Beretta owners are doing. On a 1911 anywhere from a 14 to 18 pound recoil spring wouldn't require a change. Lighter than 14 and you're best advised to bump up the hammer spring a bit to compensate. This is involving the use of service loads, not light competition stuff. It was even more important with the Browning HP, which is more delicate. If you intended to shoot a lot of +P ammo, which I did, a heavier recoil spring was necessary to prevent battering the gun to death. Likewise, lightening the hammer spring was cause for upping the RS weight for the same reasons.

I'd be reluctant to put too heavy a recoil spring in a 92. Perhaps better to simply change the recoil spring every 3,000 rounds rather than 5.000? Also thanks for the information about the flatwire Wilson spring. It shows once again that if something sounds too good to be true it often is.

[Trooper224]

Gotcha. Makes sense. Just got back from the range with my 92c actually... still the gun I shoot best. Its (slightly) left-leaning barrel doesn't seem to affect POI... at least to the point where I can tell, given my skill level. Easily punched the center out of a target at 10 yards.

My trainer was shooting POA/POI until about 300-400 rounds prior to the locking block failure, then it suddenly shifted. So I'm fairly certain the locking block was the cause since that was the only new variable. I used my carry gun during todays range session, just to make sure it was the arrow and not the indian. Dead center with that one.

[Trooper224]

I'd be reluctant to put too heavy a recoil spring in a 92. Perhaps better to simply change the recoil spring every 3,000 rounds rather than 5.000? Also thanks for the information about the flatwire Wilson spring. It shows once again that if something sounds too good to be true it often is.

Until my experiment with the Wilson spring I've stuck to 3k replacement intervals. Some say 5k is good, but I always feel the spring start to soften up when it gets north of 3k. I stopped putting heavier recoil springs in guns some years back. Many recommend an 18 pound spring in a 1911, supposedly for increased durability and less muzzle rise. I never found that really mattered on either point and went back to the standard 16 pound spring. I've never felt a need to go with anything other than the standard 13# spring in a 92. It works fine with the D hammer spring I use.

[Jeep]

Hard to see the downside in swapping recoil springs in the 3000's. Recoil springs are cheaper than locking blocks, and a broken locking block can damage the frame.

[Brotherrat]

I apologize for the slight necro, but this seemed like an appropriate place to put this. I've got a 92 that eats a locking block about every 5500 rounds or so, and I want to see if I can pump those numbers up. Now I understand the idea behind making an even contact with both ears of the block, but how do you gauge what constitutes even contact? Sharpie marker on contact points and a few hand cycles of the slide?