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View Full Version : Pointless mental exercise: fictional defense shooting sport



jlw
05-10-2013, 11:46 AM
Rules preference: mandate concealed/duty gear or just skip all of that and let be open carry since it is just a game?

littlejerry
05-10-2013, 11:59 AM
Rules preference: mandate concealed/duty gear or just skip all of that and let be open carry since it is just a game?

Let it be open carry.


Or have actual standards for concealment. No more 5.11 vests "concealing" a glock 34. I'd love a rule that required you to carry in public with your comp gear prior to the match. Better yet in a NPE. Go for a walk on the downtown strip then compete with what's on your belt. Or wear your work attire.

Personally I find the IDPA concealment rules laughable.

PPGMD
05-10-2013, 12:03 PM
Just go to open carry, based on the NRA convention people actually carry with those stupid vests.

And since people want to win, they are going to use the fastest methods, with those vests being that since they can conceal gamer guns like the Glock 34.

Personally I am of the opinion that you shoot competition to test skills, but you can't test tactics because tactics are situational and require interaction from a role player. Now NTI tried mixing both, but though the competitors tried it, I honestly not sure that everyone believed the FOF portions were truly objective.

Josh Runkle
05-10-2013, 03:25 PM
It's a game. For fun. It's not an evaluator of how you would shoot at moving targets who are shooting back at you and possibly intelligent and may also use cover or concealment. Gamer guns are perfect, as it is a game. For fun. Sure it might check a few things like speed from concealment, shot placement under stress, etc, but anyone who believes if is "truly like" anything akin to the real world is simply a competitor that is seeking validation for their own skill sets.

An Olympic swimmer, for example might have more comfort in the water than a combat swimmer, for example and may actually be better at swimming, but that doesn't mean that they know how to swim with gear, swim with a team or perform anything combat related. In the exact same sense, a competitive shooter might be a much better "shooter", but that doesn't translate to being better at shooting in combat.

So, either make it realistic, like the targets move and think and shoot back, and if you get hit there is an extreme, possibly life-long penalty (like, if you take a sim round to the head, you're disqualified for life)...or...accept that it is a fun game that tests a few simple skills, and be cool with people playing a game. The vests and 34s exist because the SPORT exists as a sport.

orionz06
05-10-2013, 03:37 PM
If it is a concealed carry sport I would make it real concealment. I get the IDPA stuff and I also play to their rules, it is pointless not to, it's a game, but I would see how one could mandate "real" clothing and truly eliminate competition gear.

Or make it open and test the shooting aspect because paper targets don't shoot back and to try to introduce tactics just allows poor shooters weasel room to justify poor performance. If you want to show the world how "tactical" you are use the picture threads like everyone else.

CCT125US
05-10-2013, 03:49 PM
What if it was mandated that the shooter must use what they were wearing at 2 pm last Tuesday? The sound of crickets would be overwhelming. A reasonable level of concealment must be included to have the appearance of being legit. The challenge is defining reasonable.

jlw
05-10-2013, 03:59 PM
If it is a concealed carry sport

Note that the term "defensive shooting sport" was used. I intentionally did not use the other term.

jlw
05-10-2013, 04:02 PM
What if it was mandated that the shooter must use what they were wearing at 2 pm last Tuesday? The sound of crickets would be overwhelming. A reasonable level of concealment must be included to have the appearance of being legit. The challenge is defining reasonable.

Not all legal carry requires concealment.

Chris Rhines
05-10-2013, 04:27 PM
Were it me, I would require concealment for most stages, but would specifically allow open and off-body starts on some stages.

I would not allow duty gear to be used in lieu of concealment.

I can't get excited about 'gamer vests.' Partly because I'm a gamer, but also because photographers vests have been used effectively, in some seriously non-permissive environments, for a long time.

jlw
05-10-2013, 04:34 PM
Were it me, I would require concealment for most stages, but would specifically allow open and off-body starts on some stages.

I would not allow duty gear to be used in lieu of concealment.

I can't get excited about 'gamer vests.' Partly because I'm a gamer, but also because photographers vests have been used effectively, in some seriously non-permissive environments, for a long time.


Not allowing duty gear was not an option in the OP. It is either duty gear/concealed or simply allowing shooters to run as open carry.

If concealment were to be required, duty gear WOULD be allowed as an alternative for those to whom it applied.

orionz06
05-10-2013, 06:12 PM
Were it me, I would require concealment for most stages, but would specifically allow open and off-body starts on some stages.

I would not allow duty gear to be used in lieu of concealment.

I can't get excited about 'gamer vests.' Partly because I'm a gamer, but also because photographers vests have been used effectively, in some seriously non-permissive environments, for a long time.

My point was not to exclude them but rather gain some sort of agreement that your normal attire would be worn. I take a vest on vacation and carry a camera and gun all the time. Normal day to day I wear jeans and a black t-shirt with a metal band on it, preferably a tour shirt, sometimes a polo. I would, in the spirit of what I am suggesting, compete in that. If I guy wears a suit 90% of the time and carries a G19 well behind his hip then compete in that. Make it really "real" not some mashed up version pretending to be the opposite of another game.

With only seeing videos and knowing who shoots it KSTG seems to work out to be close to this way now.

PPGMD
05-10-2013, 06:27 PM
If it is a concealed carry sport I would make it real concealment. I get the IDPA stuff and I also play to their rules, it is pointless not to, it's a game, but I would see how one could mandate "real" clothing and truly eliminate competition gear.

Or make it open and test the shooting aspect because paper targets don't shoot back and to try to introduce tactics just allows poor shooters weasel room to justify poor performance. If you want to show the world how "tactical" you are use the picture threads like everyone else.


How do you define real concealment? People actually concealed carry with those stupid vests, I saw more people walking around with those stupid vests at the NRA Annual Meeting than I saw walking about with a vest on at an IDPA sanctioned match (few wear their vests except when shooting).

Any attempt to regulate gear would result in preventing someone from wearing what they would truly conceal on the street. But allowing any and all gear would also allow people to bring competition gear. So my opinion don't even try, let people come however they want. Let the gamers go all out with competition open top holsters, and if you want to shoot defensively do so. Approach the sport however you want.

orionz06
05-10-2013, 06:37 PM
How do you define real concealment? People actually concealed carry with those stupid vests, I saw more people walking around with those stupid vests at the NRA Annual Meeting than I saw walking about with a vest on at an IDPA sanctioned match (few wear their vests except when shooting).

Any attempt to regulate gear would result in preventing someone from wearing what they would truly conceal on the street. But allowing any and all gear would also allow people to bring competition gear. So my opinion don't even try, let people come however they want. Let the gamers go all out with competition open top holsters, and if you want to shoot defensively do so. Approach the sport however you want.

You can't, that's the problem. At some point it seems easier to just get rid of it, especially if the idea is to compare ones shooting to others and not their shirt/vest/jacket clearing.

Chris Rhines
05-10-2013, 06:51 PM
Not allowing duty gear was not an option in the OP. It is either duty gear/concealed or simply allowing shooters to run as open carry.

If concealment were to be required, duty gear WOULD be allowed as an alternative for those to whom it applied. Nevertheless, my answer stands. Allowing 'duty' gear in a game that otherwise requires concealment is too big a loophole to work with.


My point was not to exclude them but rather gain some sort of agreement that your normal attire would be worn. You can try to mandate the wearing of 'normal attire'; I'll stand over here and watch. :D I was enough of a dork, back in the day, that I used to wear a photographer's vest when I was not carrying. Fortunately, I got over that habit pretty quickly - I found that a fleece vest from Sierra Trading Post fulfilled the same role, without making me look like such a schlub...


With only seeing videos and knowing who shoots it KSTG seems to work out to be close to this way now. Allowing AIWB seems to go a long way towards realistic carry gear. Just saying...


Any attempt to regulate gear would result in preventing someone from wearing what they would truly conceal on the street. But allowing any and all gear would also allow people to bring competition gear. So my opinion don't even try, let people come however they want. Let the gamers go all out with competition open top holsters, and if you want to shoot defensively do so. Approach the sport however you want. I'm very sympathetic to this view, except for the fact that we already have a perfectly good open-carry sport in USPSA. A concealed-carry sport would be nice for cross-training purposes, if nothing else.

orionz06
05-10-2013, 06:56 PM
You can try to mandate the wearing of 'normal attire'; I'll stand over here and watch. :D I was enough of a dork, back in the day, that I used to wear a photographer's vest when I was not carrying. Fortunately, I got over that habit pretty quickly - I found that a fleece vest from Sierra Trading Post fulfilled the same role, without making me look like such a schlub...

Oh I know it will never happen.

PPGMD
05-10-2013, 07:28 PM
You can't, that's the problem. At some point it seems easier to just get rid of it, especially if the idea is to compare ones shooting to others and not their shirt/vest/jacket clearing.

Exactly my point.

To me the idea of a concealed carry match, really only works in a small group of close friends. They know each other, they know how they dress, and since they are close generally they will stick to the plan. But the larger the group, the more likely it will be gamed.

Besides if it were realistic, every stage would involve some variation of you screaming like a little girl while emptying a gun at a bad guy at 2 yards (shamelessly stolen from Caleb).

jlw
05-10-2013, 08:10 PM
Nevertheless, my answer stands. Allowing 'duty' gear in a game that otherwise requires concealment is too big a loophole to work with.

You can try to mandate the wearing of 'normal attire'; I'll stand over here and watch. :D I was enough of a dork, back in the day, that I used to wear a photographer's vest when I was not carrying. Fortunately, I got over that habit pretty quickly - I found that a fleece vest from Sierra Trading Post fulfilled the same role, without making me look like such a schlub...

Allowing AIWB seems to go a long way towards realistic carry gear. Just saying...

I'm very sympathetic to this view, except for the fact that we already have a perfectly good open-carry sport in USPSA. A concealed-carry sport would be nice for cross-training purposes, if nothing else.

If you are voting to require concealment you are also voting to allow duty gear. The two will not be separated. It's either straight up open carry or concealed/duty gear.

ToddG
05-10-2013, 10:16 PM
To me the idea of a concealed carry match, really only works in a small group of close friends. They know each other, they know how they dress, and since they are close generally they will stick to the plan. But the larger the group, the more likely it will be gamed.

Well, it's a game.

I'll never understand why people get so upset about the 511 style vests. Is it the true everyday concealment of every person who competes in one? Of course not. Trying to require people to shoot "their normal clothes" is like insisting people shoot "their everyday gun." There's simply no way on earth to enforce it.

Nonetheless, lost of people do carry with various types of open front concealment garments and using a 511 vest, while maybe easier, is at least using the same movements and skills.

The same problem comes when trying to mandate "only real" duty gear, which is why it's impossible to have duty gear without opening up a can of worms. As such, in terms of this mental exercise my vote is to shoot something else. :cool:

GOTURBACK
05-10-2013, 10:27 PM
I experience this concealment anomaly in my weekly practical action league 99% of the people I shoot against (LEO's, Professional sponsored shooters and civilians) ( except an uc DEA agent) overwhelmingly wear some sort of vest either an idpa or photographers type vest, one leo shoots without concealment & drop leg holster.

I wear the same concealment as I wear all day every day, usually a t-shirt, or polo shirt with a aiwb holster and my HK45C or P2sk sub-compact pistol, sometimes during the colder weather I will wear an owb holster with my heavy winter coat but not always.

For a short while I was allowed to shoot from my aiwb holster because they follow the idpa rules loosely, then I was told no more due to another competitors concern for my safety, so I have to change out to a traditional iwb, or owb strongside holster when I arrive to shoot which does not make me happy.

I was actually told by the MD that I should get a specific type of "vest" no thanks. I know that I could be at a disadvantage in some parameters but I still out shoot many of my fellow vested competitors which does make me happy.

jlw
05-10-2013, 10:33 PM
Well, it's a game.

I'll never understand why people get so upset about the 511 style vests. Is it the true everyday concealment of every person who competes in one? Of course not. Trying to require people to shoot "their normal clothes" is like insisting people shoot "their everyday gun." There's simply no way on earth to enforce it.

Nonetheless, lost of people do carry with various types of open front concealment garments and using a 511 vest, while maybe easier, is at least using the same movements and skills.

The same problem comes when trying to mandate "only real" duty gear, which is why it's impossible to have duty gear without opening up a can of worms. As such, in terms of this mental exercise my vote is to shoot something else. :cool:


As I outlined in another thread, duty gear would be simple to regulate. Set some general specifications and require the shooter to submit a letter from their agency or a copy of the policy authorizing the gear being worn. There is no can of worms. Folks are just making it harder than it has to be. No letter or copy of policy and/or a shooters gear doesn't meet the specified requirements then the shooter doesn't shoot using duty gear.

You have mentioned an ALS holster in several other discussions we have had on the matter. A 6378 ALS is no faster than a 6280 SLS holster; yet nobody ever questions the 6280 because it is mounted on a jacket slot mount and the has the piece going over the hammer or slide cover plate.

At any rate, that isn't the point of the exercise.

ToddG
05-10-2013, 10:43 PM
As I outlined in another thread, duty gear would be simple to regulate. Set some general specifications and require the shooter to submit a letter from their agency or a copy of the policy authorizing the gear being worn.

I'd humbly suggest you ask around. There are many officers who cannot get their departments to sign off on something as simple as buying a gun or attending a class. Getting formal recognition to attend with issued duty gear creates all sorts of issues (and possible liabilities) for the department.

Even if you can get the necessary paperwork you still have the issue of the guy who gets his rangemaster to certify that his gamey gear is "official."


You have mentioned an ALS holster in several other discussions we have had on the matter. A 6378 ALS is no faster than a 6280 SLS holster; yet nobody ever questions the 6280 because it is mounted on a jacket slot mount and the has the piece going over the hammer or slide cover plate.

I wouldn't agree at all. Having used both quite a bit, the ALS is substantially faster over the long haul. The ALS requires no real change from a normal draw and it's almost impossible to fumble. The SLS certainly isn't that easy which is why so many folks flip the bale the down when they shouldn't. Can the SLS be used very effectively? Sure. But I wouldn't expect a competitor's draw over the course of a big match to be equal between the two.

jlw
05-10-2013, 10:46 PM
I think I am getting my answer. With so many arguments over what "real concealed" gear and what legitimate duty gear is, it appears it would be much simpler just to go straight open carry and avoid all the arguments altogether. It would just be a game...

ST911
05-10-2013, 11:15 PM
I write policy, regulation, and law. There is no rule that someone can't reinterpret, manipulate, or game. Especially if a committee was involved in its creation. You can appeal to its spirit and intent, but that is only effective if you can suppress human nature and ego.

Folks who shoot some local leagues go to matches with garb and gear that's their EDC. When they're at the Applebees or Walmart later, it never seems the same.

Re duty gear... There's an awful lot of crap out there seeing daily patrol use. It would rightfully be called "duty gear" for the folks wearing it, but doesn't pass any credible standard of serviceability as such.

Some could get a letter verifying its approval. Some couldn't. And believe it or not, there are agencies that don't even have policy manuals to make a copy from. Yup, no policy manual whatsoever.

I wore the SLS (6280) for many years, and went to the ALS last year. I haven't quantified the difference, but my experience is the ALS is faster by a good margin, even with the ALS guard.

I have an original RR-branded vest here somewhere. I haven't seen it for awhile, but I can spot them on others a mile away. They're the usual suspects. Various fleece and softshell vests are so much more discreet and practical for me.

jlw
05-10-2013, 11:16 PM
I'd humbly suggest you ask around. There are many officers who cannot get their departments to sign off on something as simple as buying a gun or attending a class. Getting formal recognition to attend with issued duty gear creates all sorts of issues (and possible liabilities) for the department.

Even if you can get the necessary paperwork you still have the issue of the guy who gets his rangemaster to certify that his gamey gear is "official."



I wouldn't agree at all. Having used both quite a bit, the ALS is substantially faster over the long haul. The ALS requires no real change from a normal draw and it's almost impossible to fumble. The SLS certainly isn't that easy which is why so many folks flip the bale the down when they shouldn't. Can the SLS be used very effectively? Sure. But I wouldn't expect a competitor's draw over the course of a big match to be equal between the two.


Every officer has a copy of the SOP and could simply print out the policy or make a copy of the respective pages. That would not be an issue at all.

I humbly point out that I have a pretty good idea of how things work within agencies. I really don't need to ask around. I have taught at the regional academy and participate in the state firearms instructor group. I also sit on promotional review boards and policy review for other agencies and was part of an agency accreditation process and thus know the model policies quite well. I have more than a sufficient frame of reference for what goes on across the board in the land of policy. Not so humbly, I'm not a rookie.

i have a trunk full of all sorts of duty gear and have run each of the predominant holsters in use out there at some point or another. All the SLS requires is hitting the hood as coming down on the pistol in the draw stroke. It can be done in one motion. Unfortunately, too many turn it into a two step draw instead of properly doing it as one step. Functionally it is simply sending the bail forward instead of pulling the button rearward.

Besides, matches aren't won based on the fastest draw. If it were I would do much better in matches than my decrepit wheels allow. I have stood toe to toe with a USPA grand master and actually beaten him in a drill similar to your very own FAST drill (was shot on the IALEFI Q target). Once the movement started we saw why he is a grand master. I'm and EX across the pistol spectrum in IDPA (102 classifier). I don't shoot USPA and don't know how that would translate, but it isn't a threat to any grand master. In short, a fraction of a second here and there on a draw is easily wiped out by other facets of an action pistol match.

ToddG
05-10-2013, 11:30 PM
I'd certainly never suggest you're a rookie. But having myself dealt with administrators and range personnel from countless local, state, and federal agencies one thing I know for sure is that nothing is universal. I've dealt with a Sheriff who went out on patrol himself for two days so his guys could attend one of my classes, and I've dealt with a federal agency whose chief "technology" officer selected Glocks over SIGs because -- no lie -- "you can clean a Glock in a dishwasher."

We'll have to agree to disagree on the SLS/ALS thing, too. As I said, the SLS can certainly be great.

jlw
05-11-2013, 12:11 AM
I'd certainly never suggest you're a rookie. But having myself dealt with administrators and range personnel from countless local, state, and federal agencies one thing I know for sure is that nothing is universal. I've dealt with a Sheriff who went out on patrol himself for two days so his guys could attend one of my classes, and I've dealt with a federal agency whose chief "technology" officer selected Glocks over SIGs because -- no lie -- "you can clean a Glock in a dishwasher."

We'll have to agree to disagree on the SLS/ALS thing, too. As I said, the SLS can certainly be great.

For the record, the SLS is not my personal preference. I have several of them and have done range work with them simply to be familiar with them. My personal preference is for a holster that rides tighter to the body. For all of my uniform patrol years, I used an agency mandated 070. That agency issues everything but socks and undergarments with no personal options allowed other than choosing where stuff like your mag pouches and cuff cases went on your belt. After I joined the SO, my previous agency switched to the 6360. At the SO, I allow for personal preference for the most part. If a deputy doesn't have personal preferences we have a standard set of gear that we issue/order. The 6360 is the current agency generic holster if we have to order gear when no preference has been expressed. Most exercise the option to pick their gear, and we have everything from 070s to 295s to 6280s to 6360s to a couple of ALS models to even some other makers than Safariland. Leather or nylon is fielders choice.

Having been sworn at the local, state, and federal levels I have seen a pretty fair spectrum of good and bad decisions. I get the chance to poke my head in a lot of other shops in various capacities. Sometimes the decisions make sense, and sometimes they don't. I skipped lieutenant and captain; so, I didn't get the complete command lobotomy.

littlejerry
05-11-2013, 06:43 AM
Well, it's a game.

I'll never understand why people get so upset about the 511 style vests. Is it the true everyday concealment of every person who competes in one? Of course not. Trying to require people to shoot "their normal clothes" is like insisting people shoot "their everyday gun." There's simply no way on earth to enforce it.

Nonetheless, lost of people do carry with various types of open front concealment garments and using a 511 vest, while maybe easier, is at least using the same movements and skills.

The same problem comes when trying to mandate "only real" duty gear, which is why it's impossible to have duty gear without opening up a can of worms. As such, in terms of this mental exercise my vote is to shoot something else. :cool:


The vest is the object I can direct my frustration towards.

I have a very difficult time being lectured by a couch commando in a 5.11 vest about the "tactical" order of engaging targets and how IDPA is training me for real life "tactical" situations and those other sports are just about "slinging bullets". Then Mr. Couch commando takes off his glock 34 and vest so he can dawn his "tactical" Kel-tec and uncle Mike's holster for the ride home.

When every breath I take on a stage is scripted there really aren't any tactics.

I think what could be very fun is shooting USPSA stages blind. Figure it out on the fly.

ToddG
05-11-2013, 11:43 AM
That's how I shot USPSA... once we got the stage brief I'd never walk through the stage. But it gets tedious after a while.

David Armstrong
05-11-2013, 01:05 PM
I think I am getting my answer. With so many arguments over what "real concealed" gear and what legitimate duty gear is, it appears it would be much simpler just to go straight open carry and avoid all the arguments altogether. It would just be a game...
To me that sums it up. There is no such thing as "real concealed" gear. My concealed gear in a given year runs the gamut of chino's and a polo, cargo shorts with a T-shirt, jeans and an oxford with a sport jacket OR a photo-vest, a 3-piece suit, and so on.

Corlissimo
05-11-2013, 03:47 PM
If you want to show the world how "tactical" you are use the picture threads like everyone else.

Golden sig-line material right there! :cool:

Gideon_459
05-11-2013, 06:57 PM
There's always the cowboy action shooting model where they have clothing based divisions. For a defensive shooting sport the options are endless, business casual, Sunday best, tactical fisherman, even gang banger.

orionz06
05-11-2013, 07:04 PM
There's always the cowboy action shooting model where they have clothing based divisions. For a defensive shooting sport the options are endless, business casual, Sunday best, tactical fisherman, even gang banger.

So long as we can count black jeans in business casual as a FTDR.