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BJJ
05-07-2013, 04:07 PM
Awesome write up on street robberies by a very experienced cop:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1285487_Street_robberies_and_you___The_Basics.html

JMorse
05-07-2013, 06:30 PM
That was an awesome read. Thanks very much.

RoyGBiv
05-07-2013, 09:28 PM
I read that when it initially made the rounds last year.

Biggest takeaway for me was.........


When to draw

Despite warnings I often see on the Net I have yet to encounter an instance in which a hold up man called the police to report his intended victim threatened to shoot him. Thugs do not want to come into contact with the police. They may already be wanted or realize chances are good they have been identified in a recent robbery. Or what ever. They are not going to call the police if you draw on them.

Supposed two guys are approaching you in a parking lot and do the classic fan out maneuver. You indicate you have a weapon by clearing your gun hand and fanning your jacket at them. They are not discouraged. DRAW!

I am not saying you should pull your gun out, assume a Weaver stance, and scream "That's close enough motherfuckers!" What I am saying is draw your gun and hold it beside your leg as you start to move to cover. I am very fond of telephone poles. Anything will do though. They will see this. They will remember they have to be somewhere else. They will not call the police.

Then you can just put your gun back in the holster and go back to whatever you were doing like nothing happened. Why? Because nothing did happen. A happening is when shots are fired.

Do not hesitate to draw. If you are somewhere you are supposed to be and someone appears who is not supposed to be there like a closed business show him the end of your gun. Could it be Mother Teresa looking for her lost cat behind your closed business? No it is some motherfucker up to no good. He won't call the police to report he was prowling a location when a guy ran him off.

When to shoot

The time to shoot is immediately upon seeing his weapon. You are not a police man who has to try to arrest the guy. No need to scream at him. No exposure while you yell for him to drop the gun.

WobblyPossum
05-07-2013, 11:04 PM
Thanks for linking that. The when to draw section was thought provoking.

Wayne Dobbs
05-08-2013, 07:36 AM
I normally feel dirty whenever I go to Barfcom, but that was good. The interactions I had as an LEO with armed robbers/street gangsters track exactly with what this officer has to say.

Jay Cunningham
05-08-2013, 08:26 AM
That was VERY interesting and I will be thinking carefully about what I read. It's a more aggressive perspective and it also demystifies hundreds/thousands of hours of training junkie "advanced" "tactical" coursework.

*pondering*

Erik
05-08-2013, 08:49 AM
I've seen this a few times in the past, and appreciate it every time. The one piece of the write-up that I don't get is saying "I don't have a gun" while giving all the cues that you do. Can anybody with more experience weigh in on that?

Chuck Haggard
05-08-2013, 09:03 AM
I'll have to read the whole thing, but the part posted above is dead on.

I have lost track of how many times I have had a gun in hand when a guy or guys decided to go be somewhere else in hurry.

I do tend to try and actually call the local cops in case they give a crap and can maybe do something about checking on the situation. The guys that just shark bumped me will no doubt try again and not just go home and find Jesus. We have made some decent arrests on my job from suspicious persons calls, it works sometimes, but never if you don't call.

Pre HR218 and depending on where I was made a difference though.

TCinVA
05-08-2013, 10:33 AM
I've seen this a few times in the past, and appreciate it every time. The one piece of the write-up that I don't get is saying "I don't have a gun" while giving all the cues that you do. Can anybody with more experience weigh in on that?

That's the one bit that concerned me about the writeup.

When it comes to subtle attempts at intimidation I'm of the opinion that most people aren't really capable of pulling it off. A yorkie can growl, but it will never inspire the kind of fear that a Belgian Mal will inspire when it growls. The average accountant trying to growl like a very bad man on the street is probably going to look more like the yorkie than the Mal to the average bad guy. I'll leave more definitive statements about that to the more experienced guys like TPD, SouthNarc and the like...but I'm not going to be inclined to attempt subtle means of intimidation that, if misplayed, don't discourage the bad guy but does give him a clue that I'm packing and where it's located.

If I need to use my weapon as intimidation I'm probably likely to have my hands on it to do so.

Here at PF we've had a number of discussions about the utility of the preemptive draw and I think it's something that folks should be willing to use. While we should never depend on a firearm's ability to intimidate as our only self defense plan, it nevertheless has the power to intimidate and make a bad man break off an attack. I would much rather utilize that potential and end the situation without having to fire a shot than have to explain my hollowpoints in a corpse to the police if for no other reason than it's a lot safer and more convenient for me if a bad man is sent fleeing into the night rather than gurgling out his last breaths at my feet.

SouthNarc
05-08-2013, 10:54 AM
The one piece of the write-up that I don't get is saying "I don't have a gun" while giving all the cues that you do. Can anybody with more experience weigh in on that?

Personally I think this is incredibly bad advice for the average person who has not spent a good bit of time in street culture.

RoyGBiv
05-08-2013, 10:56 AM
"I don't have a gun"

Should be stated in a way that, at minimum, implies "mothafu&a" at the end.

I read that as street code for....
"I have a gun, but I'm smart enough (so I think) to maintain deniability if a cop shows up, but now you KNOW I have a gun 'cause I said the word "gun" out loud", so go waste some brain cycles figuring out THAT mystery, while I buy some time to find some cover, mothafu&a.

And make this face when you say it... It's more about projecting an aura of being crazed and capable of puling the trigger than it is about the words, methinks.

http://clatl.com/binary/93c9/1305904575-obama-angry-face.jpg

Erik
05-08-2013, 11:04 AM
Personally I think this is incredibly bad advice for the average person who has not spent a good bit of time in street culture.

On a continuum from the Black People Love Us folks to Simon Phoenix, I'm a lot closer to the BPLU end of things, so...

David Armstrong
05-08-2013, 11:49 AM
I've seen this a few times in the past, and appreciate it every time. The one piece of the write-up that I don't get is saying "I don't have a gun" while giving all the cues that you do. Can anybody with more experience weigh in on that?
Can't speak for anyone else, but I find that to be very bad advice. If anything, I might advise the opposite, claiming and posturing to have a gun when you don't. IMO if you are going to bluff try the bluff that has a greater chance of making the BG go someplace else.

Erik
05-08-2013, 12:03 PM
To be clear, the original post on AR15.com suggests saying "I don't have a gun" even though you really do. It's supposed to tell the bad guy that you really do have a gun somehow. I assume that's supposed to be like using the secret bad guy handshake, or hobo signs - let's the bad guy know you're the real deal.

ToddG
05-08-2013, 12:12 PM
To be clear, the original post on AR15.com suggests saying "I don't have a gun" even though you really do. It's supposed to tell the bad guy that you really do have a gun somehow. I assume that's supposed to be like using the secret bad guy handshake, or hobo signs - let's the bad guy know you're the real deal.

Pass. I can just see how that would play in court as bystanders say you tried to trick the BGs into thinking you were unarmed right before springing your surreptitious assassination plan.

LOKNLOD
05-08-2013, 12:32 PM
Pass. I can just see how that would play in court as bystanders say you tried to trick the BGs into thinking you were unarmed right before springing your surreptitious assassination plan.

Not to mention, playing street games with street people when you're not one of them is kind of like Snooki showing up at the NBA finals and asking to play one-on-one. You think you're playing their game, while they just know they're about to kitten the kitten out of you.

ToddG
05-08-2013, 12:37 PM
Not to mention, playing street games with street people when you're not one of them is kind of like Snooki showing up at the NBA finals and asking to play one-on-one. You think you're playing their game, while they just know they're about to kitten the kitten out of you.

Exactly. I am never going to convince them that I'm part of their criminal subculture. I'd much rather they realize I'm part of the subculture that will kill people from their subculture when threatened.

Kyle Reese
05-08-2013, 12:38 PM
Exactly. I am never going to convince them that I'm part of their criminal subculture. I'd much rather they realize I'm part of the subculture that will kill people from their subculture when threatened.

Sig line material here..... :cool:

WobblyPossum
05-08-2013, 12:47 PM
Exactly. I am never going to convince them that I'm part of their criminal subculture. I'd much rather they realize I'm part of the subculture that will kill people from their subculture when threatened.

Exactly. There is no way I could pull off these kinds of bluffs so I'm not going to waste time fooling myself and posturing. The only attitude I need to give off in this situation is "if you threaten my safety, I will end your life."

Mr. Goodtimes
05-09-2013, 08:40 PM
Does anyone know of the guy that wrote it was even a real cop?

Clyde from Carolina
05-09-2013, 08:54 PM
I thought a lot of it made sense and rang true to me IMHO as a cop...but the "Jedi Mind trick - I don't have a gun" part was a bit much, and as SN said, really bad advice for most people. It would, as RoyGBiv said, require a pretty good amount of street-smart savvy and Harry Callahan nonchalance to pull off. Maybe.

TGS
05-09-2013, 09:13 PM
I'm still not so sure about the advice on taking out your gun when you really don't need to. Think about it this way: he says that the time to shoot someone is the second you see their gun.

Okay, so he hasn't taken out a gun or caused any sort of lethal encounter so far, but I'm feeling uncomfortable so I take out my gun and hold it by my side as he advises. What does that give everyone else with a gun a reason to do?

Shoot me, justifiably.

No? Why not, if someone else doing the same thing is reason enough for me to shoot them?

You just took a non-lethal encounter to lethal by bringing out a gun. You escalated the situation. Was it justified?

I've done such, but on my premises when some unscrupulous dudes were hanging outside in the alleyway when I needed the garage door open. I've not done so on the streets, nor am I thinking it's a good idea. I don't know if a tough sounding internet personality is enough to convince me to pull out a gun on a public street when it is not legally justifiable.

Clyde from Carolina
05-09-2013, 09:23 PM
TGS,

Good point. This guy might be a bored out of work copywriter who is a Wambaugh fan. Who knows?

The coolest, most street savvy cop I know is a high school grad with no college. (And I love him, he's a true mentor and friend and a completely admirable dude.) I would NOT trust him for legal advice and he would laugh if anybody suggested he could give same. But he could tell you a lot about staying alive but that isn't necessarily legal advice. C'est la vie. Common sense goes a long way.

TCinVA
05-10-2013, 06:48 AM
I'm still not so sure about the advice on taking out your gun when you really don't need to. Think about it this way: he says that the time to shoot someone is the second you see their gun.

Okay, so he hasn't taken out a gun or caused any sort of lethal encounter so far, but I'm feeling uncomfortable so I take out my gun and hold it by my side as he advises. What does that give everyone else with a gun a reason to do?

Shoot me, justifiably.

No? Why not, if someone else doing the same thing is reason enough for me to shoot them?

You just took a non-lethal encounter to lethal by bringing out a gun. You escalated the situation. Was it justified?

I've done such, but on my premises when some unscrupulous dudes were hanging outside in the alleyway when I needed the garage door open. I've not done so on the streets, nor am I thinking it's a good idea. I don't know if a tough sounding internet personality is enough to convince me to pull out a gun on a public street when it is not legally justifiable.

I don't think that's his argument.

Reluctance to get the gun involved when the situation has already crossed the threshold into a situation that could be dramatically improved by getting it involved is a fairly common problem. Take the dude who tried strong-arm robbery on me...most non-PF.com people I know of who have a CCW permit probably wouldn't have started to draw on the guy the second he demanded money because he hadn't yet pulled any sort of weapon. There's this idea out there that you can't get your gun involved until the other guy has commenced trying to kill you with his, and that's just not true. I don't believe the author of that writeup is encouraging pulling a gun willy nilly. When you talk to people who have been victims you often hear a lot of them state that they knew at a certain point just before hostilities started that something very bad was about to happen, but weren't sure what to do about it. I believe that's the point where he's telling them to get the gun involved.

WDW
05-10-2013, 11:32 AM
I know first hand just how quick a bad situation can end quickly when a gun is made visible. It works, but you have to be smart about it & have your ducks in a row. My story is as follows:

Me and a friend were returning from a deer hunt. He was dropping me off at my house. I lived in a very rural area at the time. As he turned on to my street, we noticed the car in front of us was weaving all over the road & traveling at a high rate of speed (close to 40 over the posted limit).

I immediately called the Sheriff's office & gave our location, plate #, & vehicle description. We decided to follow the car as I didn't want idiots like this on my street. Well, long story short, he took a turn too fast & cashed into an elderly ladies mailbox.

I got out to make sure they were ok. Inside were 2 passengers, a father & son, son was driving. The father got out & sat by the car, drunk as hell. The son jumped out of the vehicle & sprinted toward the ladies house. She was now standing on her porch seeing what was happening.

I yelled out & asked if she knew them, she said no. There was no way I was gonna let this guy go up there so I went after him, yelled @ him to stop, & when he didn't I grabbed him by the collar & threw his ass on the ground. He got up quick & came towards me @ which point I drew my G19, went to a low ready, & told him to stop. And stop he did!!! He turned ghost white, became real cooperative, & went and sat by the car til the deputies showed up.

THP showed up soon after. The car was stolen, drugs were found, & the guy had several outstanding warrants. Maybe I didn't do everything perfect, but I think I did the right thing.

Captain
05-12-2013, 09:14 PM
I preemptively drew once to end an encounter.

I was leaving work and the 3 lane (each way) road was closed down to one due to construction. At the point where it went from 2 to 1 cars were alternating from each lane. I followed this pattern and seemed to have no problems with the car before or after me, until after the next stop light.

At said stop light I took the next turn and proceeded to attempt to get on the interstate. The car that had been behind me followed. Once it almost got to where you could merge into traffic, he gunned his car and pulled up next to me, came out his driver's side window up to his waist, and came up over the car and threw a giant sized drink at my truck. Knowing no good would come of this, I attempted to speed up and get past him. Since I drive the most woefully underpowered vehicle on the road, he easily boxed me in. I decided to just slow down and let him go. He decided to slow down with me. At this point we are out of entrance ramp and I am driving on the shoulder. I attempt to speed up again, to no avail, and now the guy is coming onto the shoulder in an attempt to force me off the road entirely.

Until now, I have not engaged him directly in any way - no shouting, no bird flipping, no looking at him - just me trying to get home to my wife and kids. However, it has become painfully clear that he is going to make this bigger than it ever should have been. So, still without directly engaging him, I draw my pistol and hold it up so that it is clearly visible to anyone that can see into my vehicle.

He suddenly slams on his brakes, I accelerate and immediately move to the far left lane in an attempt to just get the hell out of there. Unfortunately, it's rush hour and I quickly hit traffic. Within about 20 seconds, he is pulled up on my right, rolls down his window and throws what appears to be a 9mm round at me... literally throws, by hand, a round of ammunition at my truck. At this point I swerve towards him, he brakes and I finally leave him in the dust, never to see him again.

At this point I realize the most horrifying part of this ordeal. Because I don't actually want to ruin my truck by hitting him, I look at him to make sure that while I am swerving I won't actually make contact. As I look over I realize that there is a woman in the passenger seat screaming and pleading with the driver and two occupied toddler/baby seats in the back of his vehicle.

While my exit wasn't as clean as I had wanted, had I not drawn my weapon, more in a show that I was not an easy target for whatever he intended and less with any real ability to use it in a moving vehicle, that encounter would have ended decidedly worse for me.

Josh Runkle
05-13-2013, 09:59 AM
I would prefer to give zero impression. If my life is in imminent danger and I can't get away, I'd prefer their last impression to be, "Huh? What's that flash?" Followed swiftly by, "Am I in hell?"

Posturing is merely a communication that you are unwilling to fight at this time. Communicating that you can't defend yourself (even if you actually can) may precipitate the whole incident as you appear an easy target.

Communicating that "if they don't start none, there won't be none" or something or other, simply gives them the upper hand. Now they may leave and come back with 5 friends.

Showing a pistol from a vehicle (hindsight 20/20, etc) may simply give them the time to load 10 AR mags and the AR they had sitting in the backseat.

The only thing I communicate is the non-verbal stare when someone is entering my personal space. I'll back-up, etc, until they stop. If they don't, I will communicate (while still moving), "hey man, you're getting a little too close for comfort" Which, if they don't immediately stop moving toward me would be followed by "Stop!" But generally, people either say they're sorry and stop moving toward you, or (my belief would be) they rush you. I have never had a person not stop moving toward me, simply by me giving the evil glare. I've never had to even inform someone they are too close for comfort.

Aside from someone slowly encroaching upon your personal space, I really can't think of a time when it is in the civilian's advantage to communicate anything.

Don't communicate that you're a hard mother-kitten. Try to be polite and walk away without telling someone anything else (though, don't allow yourself to become more exposed while walking away). If have no way of escaping and your life is in danger and you simply must communicate the hard mother-kitten part, just let the speed from concealment, rapid firing, empty mag and speed reload communicate that.

People wanting to inform others that they shouldn't be messed with may play to an advantage for an officer who might walk into a situation knowing there are 20 possible bad guys and they have to ask them to turn the music down or something. This communication can act as a deterrent. Civilians, on the other hand, don't have a duty to do such things as asking a party full of gang-bangers to turn down their music, and should simply, politely leave the area. There is almost zero advantage for the civilian communicating that they shouldn't be messed with, and (for the civilian) it is generally a "tactic" that results from ego, not an actual tactical advantage.

David Armstrong
05-13-2013, 10:49 AM
I would prefer to give zero impression.
That has been my preferred choice in recent years. I've had two road rage incidents, and both of them I just didn't play. Pulled over to the shoulder, stopped, turned on the emergency flashers and sat there for a few minutes. Gun was vailable and ready if needed, but not shown. In the old days I might have been willing to demonstrate assorted high-level driving skills but now it seems better to not play the game at all.