.38 vs. four bad guys with an assault rifle: aggression and surprise win the day

[TR675]

Let's just go ahead and give this guy the Balls of the Month award.

A store owner prevailed against four bad guys robbing his store. (http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/2013/05/west-dallas-store-owner-uses-handgun-to-stop-robbery-suspect-brandishing-assault-rifle-other-suspects-remain-at-large.html/) One baddie had an "assault rifle" - brand/type unknown, who knows what it may have been. The assault rifle toter got shot twice and ran; all of his companions took off as well.

I've been following the local crime blog and have seen several CCW incidents in the last few months. No good guy has lost a fight yet, at least that I know of. Multiple assailants are the norm; less than ideal firepower is also the norm. It appears that most bad guys are not willing to stick around to shoot it out. While these few incidents can't be justification for carrying a suboptimal handgun, they may be reassuring to those who, for whatever reason, do.

Horribly, after this gent shot the bad guy and called 911, the Dallas Police Dept. took an hour and a half to respond. To a robbery with shots fired. This type of response time is not atypical for DPD, something I guess the store owner knew - he got pissed after 20 minutes, locked up and went home. Bravo for you, store owner guy.

[JHC]

Let's just go ahead and give this guy the Balls of the Month award.

A store owner prevailed against four bad guys robbing his store. (http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/2013/05/west-dallas-store-owner-uses-handgun-to-stop-robbery-suspect-brandishing-assault-rifle-other-suspects-remain-at-large.html/) One baddie had an "assault rifle" - brand/type unknown, who knows what it may have been. The assault rifle toter got shot twice and ran; all of his companions took off as well.

I've been following the local crime blog and have seen several CCW incidents in the last few months. No good guy has lost a fight yet, at least that I know of. Multiple assailants are the norm; less than ideal firepower is also the norm. It appears that most bad guys are not willing to stick around to shoot it out. While these few incidents can't be justification for carrying a suboptimal handgun, they may be reassuring to those who, for whatever reason, do.

Horribly, after this gent shot the bad guy and called 911, the Dallas Police Dept. took an hour and a half to respond. To a robbery with shots fired. This type of response time is not atypical for DPD, something I guess the store owner knew - he got pissed after 20 minutes, locked up and went home. Bravo for you, store owner guy.

"Bravo for you, store owner guy." :D Nice!

As you track those stories of good guys prevailing; any sense of how much training they have?

[Chuck Haggard]

I remember reading about a guy in South Africa, IIRC an off-duty copper armed with a Star .45, got caught up in a bank robbery, ended up in a gun fight with seven guys with AKs, and won. It can be done, if you are armed and willing to try.


Well played Mr. Cho, very well played.

[TR675]

It seems to vary between none at all to quite a bit. Obviously, I'm dealing with a small sample size. Lots of things don't get reported, and of those that are reported I imagine some don't actually make the paper.

One incident that I thought was a very valuable teaching experience for us involved several robberies that occurred around one of our local lakes. Three armed bad guys approached a jogger who is oblivious to his surroundings and didn't notice them coming up on him. They took everything he had.

They next tried to rob an ex cop with a CCW permit who was at a local gas station. He saw them approaching, got suspicious, got even more suspicious when they drew guns on him, positioned himself behind cover in such a way to get a clear line of sight on all three bad guys, drew his weapon and challenged them. They ran off without a fight.

I will try to find a link to that incident tomorrow.

[TCinVA]

An intended victim who produces an unexpected firearm can produce a primal fear response in even very bad men who have the upper hand on paper. Surprise is one hell of an advantage to have on your side...that's why I'm not inclined to give it up easily with open carry.

[Clyde from Carolina]

I remember reading about a guy in South Africa, IIRC an off-duty copper armed with a Star .45, got caught up in a bank robbery, ended up in a gun fight with seven guys with AKs, and won. It can be done, if you are armed and willing to try.


Well played Mr. Cho, very well played.

I remember reading about that one also, many years ago. Don't recall where. Ayoob? Remember the Star PD and the number seven (first read about a Star in the 1980 gun rag 'Gun Tests' magazine - remember what they said about the Star BKM? "Star light, Star bright, this will blow away the creeps tonight!" Hey, it wasn't supposed to be Hemingway.)

[Casual Friday]

An intended victim who produces an unexpected firearm can produce a primal fear response in even very bad men who have the upper hand on paper. Surprise is one hell of an advantage to have on your side...that's why I'm not inclined to give it up easily with open carry.

My thoughts exactly.

[LSP972]

An intended victim who produces an unexpected firearm can produce a primal fear response in even very bad men who have the upper hand on paper. Surprise is one hell of an advantage to have on your side...that's why I'm not inclined to give it up easily with open carry.

This is what the OC advocates just don't get. The attention whores aside, I realize that a lot of folks OC because either that is their only option, or they elect not to avail themselves of a CCW permit for whatever reason. The ones I don't understand are the guys who refuse to jump through the permit hoops because they deem it unconstitutional, etc.

For many years, it has been in vogue for non-patrol/non-uniform assigment cops to wear the 5.11 tuxedo with exposed service weapon. Hell, I did it for a few years myself.

Then I got involved (on a case) with an old NOPD detective, who made me realize that surprise is paramount. He told me once, "The first clue I want them to have that all is not well in their world, is my muzzle flash."

.

[MEH]

"The first clue I want them to have that all is not well in their world, is my muzzle flash."



Signature material right there.

[TR675]

As promised, a link to the story about an ex-LEO maintaining awareness and thwarting three would-be robbers. (http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2013/04/three_gunman_tried_to_rob_a_re.php)

[David Armstrong]

It appears that most bad guys are not willing to stick around to shoot it out.
That agrees with my studies. Outside of gang-on-gang or other criminal-on-criminal fights, it seems most BGs won't press an attack against an armed opponent. There are some exceptions but that seems to be a fairly predictable pattern. Kleck found the same during his research.

[TR675]

Video of the incident. (http://www.myfoxdfw.com/story/22189782/store-owner-shoots-robbers) Unfortunately, not raw video, it's part of a news clip.

Four bad guys, two guns. One with what looks like an SKS with 30 round magazine, one with a pistol. The gunmen enter the store quickly and establish dominance through force, assaulting one patron on entry and generally behaving poorly. Two other bad guys then enter, one with a bag. Store owner then enters the store quickly and establishes his dominance through force by shooting people. "I see your punches and raise you a shooting," he no doubt thought after he took a break from being awesome.

Looks like the store owner may have shot at the rifleman first? Three bad guys unass the area PDQ; maybe the pistol-holding dude sticks around a little longer but then beats feet too. Seeing them scatter to the wind outside of the store does my heart good.

[idahojess]

Good job by the owner. I like the explanation the police apparently gave to the reporter for their slow response. "It was classified as a robbery, rather than a shooting, so the police were slower to respond." Oh. That makes sense, no one ever gets hurt in a robbery....
Sheesh...

[Wayne Dobbs]

Good work by the owner on this "repel boarders" operation. As for the Dallas PD, I've watched them decline from an unbelievably great PD in the 70s-80s when I was an LEO in a neighboring city, into an awful, unresponsive and lazy "blue welfare" show today. I know lots of great cops there, but once it became an affimative action "teat", its fate was sealed.

[TR675]

Wayne, you aren't kidding. In the last 5 years I've had more DPD traffic tickets get dismissed simply by showing up to my court date and pleading "not guilty"...the officer is a no show, even when the entire docket is made up of their tickets. I just plain don't sweat getting pulled over in this town anymore.

I have a friend whose sister opened fire on a home invader at her house in the M Streets near Lower Greenville (a heavily policed party street for those not familiar with Dallas). DPD showed up 40 minutes later.

[dbateman]

Man thats a good story another win for the good guy.

[TGS]

I have a friend whose sister opened fire on a home invader at her house in the M Streets near Lower Greenville (a heavily policed party street for those not familiar with Dallas). DPD showed up 40 minutes later.

This blows my mind.

Is DPD severely understaffed? My city laid off half of its cops in 2011. Crime has become worse in the city, obviously. It takes 45 minutes for them to get to a car accident with no injuries. Yet, when we call to report gunfire, they still roll out a unit within a few minutes. When I called to report the two guys who tried to jump me, they still rolled out two cops in a few minutes. Ditto when there was a fight on the street.

So, it just blows my mind that DPD could have a 40 minute response time to a shooting/home invasion. Like, wow. Do they only have 3 units for the whole city?

[fixer]

Great video. Thanks for sharing.

Situations like this seem to always play out in similar fashion. There was an incident in FL where two armed fellas tried to rob an internet cafe and one determined guy with a pocket pistol chased them off.

[TR675]

Is DPD severely understaffed? My city laid off half of its cops in 2011. Crime has become worse in the city, obviously. It takes 45 minutes for them to get to a car accident with no injuries. Yet, when we call to report gunfire, they still roll out a unit within a few minutes. When I called to report the two guys who tried to jump me, they still rolled out two cops in a few minutes. Ditto when there was a fight on the street.

So, it just blows my mind that DPD could have a 40 minute response time to a shooting/home invasion. Like, wow. Do they only have 3 units for the whole city?

Yes, they are understaffed. In my experience there's also a lot of "ain't care" going on in DPD as well as city government in general.

Two stories:

A gent threatened to kill my by the side of the road once, offering to retrieve his gun from his car and shoot me. DPD was called; I waited for 40 minutes before leaving. I was called by an officer 2 hours later, who refused to take a statement.

OTOH, I used to date a girl who lived in a high crime area right down the street from councilman John Wiley Price. There was a constant police presence on that street. A call to 311 about suspicious characters sitting in a car outside the house at night got them yanked from the car, cuffed and searched within 3 minutes.

So I think it's a bit of a combination of low staff, selective patrolling, and who you live next to...

[SeriousStudent]

......

OTOH, I used to date a girl who lived in a high crime area right down the street from councilman John Wiley Price. There was a constant police presence on that street. A call to 311 about suspicious characters sitting in a car outside the house at night got them yanked from the car, cuffed and searched within 3 minutes.

So I think it's a bit of a combination of low staff, selective patrolling, and who you live next to...

And now it's the FBI patrolling the Commissioner's street..... :cool:

I used to live on one of the aforementioned M streets back in the early 1990's. I felt relatively safe then. But there's just no way I'd live in Old East Dallas or Lakewood now. We packed up and moved to the burbs. Aside from the occasional auto burglary in the neighborhood, it's pretty safe out here. I'm pretty fond of the local PD as well, they have good folks and a fast response time when I've called.

[TR675]

Another self-defense shooting where the police did not show up for hours afterwards, this time in Fort Worth. (http://www.star-telegram.com/2013/06/10/4926355/man-shot-to-death-in-fort-worth.html) Apparently the suspect broke in and got shot for his troubles aorund 2 a.m. Homeowner left the scene and called 911, telling them there was a shooting. The investigation commenced 6 hours later.

Details are scant, but man this doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy about local emergency response times.